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Comments
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Hmm - one to watch
Commons Library
What was behind UK #GDP growth in 2015? https://t.co/QCplbeGIGV #Budget2016 https://t.co/pWdar3ZdD50 -
Lloyds of London is Massive in the US insurance market for instance. (Comes from the San Francisco Earthquake when the telegram “pay all of our policyholders in full, irrespective of the terms of their policies” was sent by CE Heath.)NorfolkTilIDie said:Interestingly UK financial exports to EU are just one third of total financial exports.
No doubt many Direct Writers these days would repudiate claims as the event was 'an Act of God' - just kidding (or am I?)0 -
Good post.Polruan said:
Sorry, but that's complete bollocks. It would be accurate to say that some (but not all) leavers tend towards that view (some of the time).
I mentioned yesterday that a lot more people here were finding out for the first time what it's been like as a Labour supporter for the last decade. The tactic du jour seems to be to attack primarily by falsely characterising your opponents' stance as a kind of messianic, brook-no-dissent fervour, which constantly involves impugning the motives of your own side, making accusations of lying, hypocrisy, self-hatred, false consciousness.... etc.
It's classic Crosby playbook in particular as a manoeuvre to try and claim the "moderate" "centre" ground in any argument: we are normal, they are nasty ideological extremists, just look at how they behave.
Of course the internet makes this easier because on any side there are fuckwits who troll, insult, threaten death... and so on. But it's still stooping very low to insist that is the characteristic nature of your opponents.0 -
Can anyone give me a link to RodCrosby's excellent GOP Nomination Spreadsheet? Cheers in advance.0
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Casino
"I don't think that Alastair hates his own country (to that extent, it was an unfortunate juxtaposition) but I do think he distrusts his own countrymen."
When you consider the number who read the SUN MAIL and EXPRESS online and off I sure as Hell distrust my own countrymen.
F..ing philistines most of them0 -
Another Brit hating luvvie. You could always live full time in France. Except the French are worse, and you'll have to pay more tax.Roger said:Casino
"I don't think that Alastair hates his own country (to that extent, it was an unfortunate juxtaposition) but I do think he distrusts his own countrymen."
When you consider the number who read the SUN MAIL and EXPRESS online and off I sure as Hell distrust my own countrymen.
F..ing philistines most of them
Did you see this?
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/22/middleeast/france-israel-jews-immigration/0 -
The entire senior leadership of our start-up - all of whom are extremely entrepreneurial - are convinced Remainers. I suspect a lot depends on the business you're in. The four freedoms are a huge boon to us, while the EU has proved to be no impediment to us growing in the US and Asia. All leaving the EU would do is make life more difficult - the only issue is the degree, which is why it would be good to get some clarity from Leave on where we'll end up after a Brexit vote.Charles said:
It's garbage, and self-serving garbage.felix said:
On March 15th when you last made this claim Richard Nabavi responded:NorfolkTilIDie said:
I don't have that as my personal conversations arent typically printed in the press. Do you have any articles suggesting I'm wrong??rcs1000 said:
If you could find me one article, or quote from a mutual fund manager, that would be great.NorfolkTilIDie said:
If you go back to what I actually said, it was that in my experience that was the case. I.e. from people I speak to. I think most press coverage has said that mutual funds want to leave EU due to regulation, which obviously applies in EEA (I think finance laws will be included in famous 9%). As far as I know there ain't been any polling on it so can't be proven either way.rcs1000 said:Hey Norfolk, would you either like to source your claim that mutual funds overwhelmingly oppose EEA with a source, or would you like to withdraw it?
"http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e90885d8-d3db-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz42y5SnqTW
The exceptions tend to be the smaller hedge funds.
The big multinational banks tend to be favour of remaining members. That's why JPM and GS are funding the Remain campaign.
The smaller companies, entrepreneurs, hedgies, brokers-dealers, etc are heavily skewed towards Brexit, but they don't the same airtime with the Corporation and others.
As a family, we are not taking a public view at the request of the chairman (who is an outside). But our leadership team, including two of the Patrimonials and three of the working partners are shifting quite markedly towards Brexit. I'm not sure where the third Patrimonial stands, but I suspect that he will probably vote the Leave eventually.
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Lethal hand-bag swinging skills.rcs1000 said:
She went over there herself to teach hand to hand combat...Charles said:
Pol Pot's regime that was in power from 1976 to January 1979? What sort of assistance was Thatcher in a position to offer?OldKingCole said:
British troops were used to train Pol Pot’s army. Our Cambodian guide, a few years ago, was very sniffy about Thatchers assistance to the regime in it’s early days.NorfolkTilIDie said:
I hardly think UK government should be withheld money from because of what Pol Pot and Stalin did.rcs1000 said:
I find the idea that government - in general - is a force for good in the world to be seriously misguided.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 1000, alas, if only we had a Hannibal or Aurelian in charge.
If you look at deaths caused by human beings the ratio is something like this:
1 - mudered by fellow man
100 - dead in foreign wars
1,000 - killed by own government
Giving money and power to the government is like giving whisky and car keys to teenagers.0 -
Just received a leaflet drop from turkeyfacts.eu.
Dearie me. All about ISIS and such like.
Horrendous design and that odious buffoon Farage on it. UKIP really should have done away with him last year.
Leave need to lock him in a cupboard somewhere. Ankara, perhaps.
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Weejonnie
"Remaining in the EU IS a leap in the dark as we have no idea what lunatic policies the EU will come up with - and can't do anything about them".
Except that we have a vote and a veto. If we don't want Turkey to join for example then the only viable option is Remain. Most of the other options being scattered around mean accepting EU rulings with no imput0 -
On topic, yup, it seems to be decided, and although Trump is an interesting and agile character while Hillary can be a bit dozy we probably shouldn't over-think this too much: Trump is only appealing to 30% of the voters and positively repulsive to most of the rest, so Clinton becomes president.
But does anyone have any ideas what happens to the Senate and House?0 -
I was going to leave it (and thought it would be left) but couldn't leave the stream of comments and misrepresentations of what I said on this thread this morning go answered.NickPalmer said:
This reminds me a little of those marital discussions which end in "We're not going to agree so let's leave it there. But I do have to say ONE LAST THING!"Casino_Royale said:
I have agreed with Alastair that, for the sake of our (up to now) good online relationship, which dates back many years, we will not engage each other directly below the line on the subject of the EU ref until after the vote. Because it does not bring out the best in either of us.
However, for the record, this is what I said last night: "I think we all know that it's precisely the prospect of Britain making its own decision for itself that scares Alastair.
Leave will never win over those who hate their own country, or distrust their own countrymen."
I don't think that Alastair hates his own country (to that extent, it was an unfortunate juxtaposition) but I do think he distrusts his own countrymen.
That is why I made the comment. If you think that by giving full democratic control to the UK you run a real risk of the UK becoming more xenophobic and intolerant, then you have a trust issue with the British electorate; one you feel can only be properly restrained by retaining a degree of international governance.
I think such a view is ludicrous and illogical, and very cynical, and I fundamentally disagree with it.
My point was that Leave will never win over people who make their assessment of which way to vote on that basis. There are others, of the Emma Thompson ilk, who simply have a disdain for their own nation.
So there is little point engaging with those who do so, because the argument will always tend to end in tears.
I have now said all I will say on the matter.0 -
'It's garbage, and self-serving garbage.'
Among my many contacts in the FX market I know very few Remainers. The EU is widely seen as incompetent, corrupt and anti-market.
I think in many institutions, including the larger ones, you would find a big divide between people on the trading floors (more exit) and the bureaucrats in management (more in).0 -
The single biggest failure of the Leave campaign to date has been not blocking the notion of the Referendum being seen as the status quo versus Something Scary. It is not a question of Brexit pulling off the serene motoring of the Euro-autobahn and off to a land signposted "Here Be Dragons". More properly we have actually reached a T-junction. One road sign points to My Decisions. The other points to Their Decisions. Underneath both, it says "Here Be Dragons".weejonnie said:
Remaining in the EU IS a leap in the dark as we have no idea what lunatic policies the EU will come up with - and can't do anything about them.
Still plenty of time for Leave to get that point across. Better to be a slowhand than to be Remain - who seem to have a very bad case of Premature Ejaculation. They showed us everything they've got in the first 30 seconds. Eeeeuuuw.0 -
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.AlastairMeeks said:
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.DavidL said:
He said democratically.AlastairMeeks said:FPT:
Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
You are doing well for sanctimony today. That is like saying after electing a labour government all the tories should throw in the towel and say "its the will of the people", not bother opposing anything, not bother trying to get re-election.AlastairMeeks said:Most of your fellow Leavers will be starting immediately after the referendum result to subvert it if they lose. Plenty on here are quite happy to admit that.
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THAT'S NOT TRUE.NickPalmer said:
This reminds me a little of those marital discussions which end in "We're not going to agree so let's leave it there. But I do have to say ONE LAST THING!"Casino_Royale said:
I have agreed with Alastair that, for the sake of our (up to now) good online relationship, which dates back many years, we will not engage each other directly below the line on the subject of the EU ref until after the vote. Because it does not bring out the best in either of us.
However, for the record, this is what I said last night: "I think we all know that it's precisely the prospect of Britain making its own decision for itself that scares Alastair.
Leave will never win over those who hate their own country, or distrust their own countrymen."
I don't think that Alastair hates his own country (to that extent, it was an unfortunate juxtaposition) but I do think he distrusts his own countrymen.
That is why I made the comment. If you think that by giving full democratic control to the UK you run a real risk of the UK becoming more xenophobic and intolerant, then you have a trust issue with the British electorate; one you feel can only be properly restrained by retaining a degree of international governance.
I think such a view is ludicrous and illogical, and very cynical, and I fundamentally disagree with it.
My point was that Leave will never win over people who make their assessment of which way to vote on that basis. There are others, of the Emma Thompson ilk, who simply have a disdain for their own nation.
So there is little point engaging with those who do so, because the argument will always tend to end in tears.0 -
The semi detached Billy No Mates position is the worst of all worlds.felix said:
Yet you don't want to listen to the agreement made with Cameron which leaves us outside this. Fair enough we're not going to agree.another_richard said:
If you want.felix said:
Your assertions are just that. I take a different view.another_richard said:
The EU is changing - it always has and always will - you can be happy with Britain's place within the EU as it moves onwards to Ever Closer Union.felix said:
I cannot attempt to try and get inside your head - the deal ensures our place within the EU in a manner I am comfortable with. A more integrated Eurozone would be good for the whole European economy - including those who have chosen to remain outside the Euro.another_richard said:
But which EU is that ?felix said:
If remain wins you will not see that argument from any in the Conservative camp or many elsewhere except possibly from the likes of Tim Farron - and even then I'd doubt it. Most 'remain' supporters see the EU as flawed but better than the alterntives. Leave supporters? - perm any one from 10.watford30 said:
If Britain votes Remain, we'll get to hear the In camp squabbling about whether the UK goes in deep, or keeps the status quo. There will be a lot of disappointed people.AlastairMeeks said:
The fantasy EU Cameron is selling to the voters, the actual EU, the ever closer union EU of next year, the ever closer union EU of ten years time ?
But that's not the choice in the referendum - instead there is a REMAIN option which is intrinsically false.
I prefer to listen to the EU when it says openly that its aim is Ever Closer Union.
As we stand still and observe others feather their nests with Euro deals and progress towards greater integration we will standing on the platform and waving the train goodbye through the cloud of steam from the great old engine with a wistful tear in our eye. We are not for integration.
I just fail to see any attraction of digging my heels in and throwing a tantrum at every integrationist measure I don't like as the juggernaut moves inexorably further from my comfort zone.
We know there is more 'ever closer union' to come. We may be excluded, if we are, we end up further away from the centre, even more semi detached.
In but out but in but out is such a brainless position and goal I can't see why anyone would support stats quo or close to status quo.
Either in hook line and sinker or out.0 -
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.0 -
Robert, someone's hacked AlanBrooke's account.Alanbrooke said:
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.0 -
My comment was related to the financial services industry - although many on here know who I am, I don't want to identify myself too publicly.SouthamObserver said:
The entire senior leadership of our start-up - all of whom are extremely entrepreneurial - are convinced Remainers. I suspect a lot depends on the business you're in. The four freedoms are a huge boon to us, while the EU has proved to be no impediment to us growing in the US and Asia. All leaving the EU would do is make life more difficult - the only issue is the degree, which is why it would be good to get some clarity from Leave on where we'll end up after a Brexit vote.Charles said:
It's garbage, and self-serving garbage.felix said:
On March 15th when you last made this claim Richard Nabavi responded:NorfolkTilIDie said:
I don't have that as my personal conversations arent typically printed in the press. Do you have any articles suggesting I'm wrong??rcs1000 said:
If you could find me one article, or quote from a mutual fund manager, that would be great.NorfolkTilIDie said:
If you go back to what I actually said, it was that in my experience that was the case. I.e. from people I speak to. I think most press coverage has said that mutual funds want to leave EU due to regulation, which obviously applies in EEA (I think finance laws will be included in famous 9%). As far as I know there ain't been any polling on it so can't be proven either way.rcs1000 said:Hey Norfolk, would you either like to source your claim that mutual funds overwhelmingly oppose EEA with a source, or would you like to withdraw it?
"http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e90885d8-d3db-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz42y5SnqTW
The exceptions tend to be the smaller hedge funds.
The big multinational banks tend to be favour of remaining members. That's why JPM and GS are funding the Remain campaign.
The smaller companies, entrepreneurs, hedgies, brokers-dealers, etc are heavily skewed towards Brexit, but they don't the same airtime with the Corporation and others.
As a family, we are not taking a public view at the request of the chairman (who is an outside). But our leadership team, including two of the Patrimonials and three of the working partners are shifting quite markedly towards Brexit. I'm not sure where the third Patrimonial stands, but I suspect that he will probably vote the Leave eventually.0 -
On topic, I don't like that fact about Bush/Nixon.
Reagan could have put Benedict Arnold on the ticket and still won in 1980 and 19840 -
A Two Pump campaign is the correct argot, shurely?
Still, another 98 days to go?!MarqueeMark said:
The single biggest failure of the Leave campaign to date has been not blocking the notion of the Referendum being seen as the status quo versus Something Scary. It is not a question of Brexit pulling off the serene motoring of the Euro-autobahn and off to a land signposted "Here Be Dragons". More properly we have actually reached a T-junction. One road sign points to My Decisions. The other points to Their Decisions. Underneath both, it says "Here Be Dragons".weejonnie said:
Remaining in the EU IS a leap in the dark as we have no idea what lunatic policies the EU will come up with - and can't do anything about them.
Still plenty of time for Leave to get that point across. Better to be a slowhand than to be Remain - who seem to have a very bad case of Premature Ejaculation. They showed us everything they've got in the first 30 seconds. Eeeeuuuw.0 -
Mr EaglesTheScreamingEagles said:
Robert, someone's hacked AlanBrooke's account.Alanbrooke said:
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.
as you know I'm a fair open minded kind of person, Ulstermen are known for it.
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Indeed, everyone would hate you once they realised you were Fred Goodwin. OopsCharles said:
My comment was related to the financial services industry - although many on here know who I am, I don't want to identify myself too publicly.SouthamObserver said:
The entire senior leadership of our start-up - all of whom are extremely entrepreneurial - are convinced Remainers. I suspect a lot depends on the business you're in. The four freedoms are a huge boon to us, while the EU has proved to be no impediment to us growing in the US and Asia. All leaving the EU would do is make life more difficult - the only issue is the degree, which is why it would be good to get some clarity from Leave on where we'll end up after a Brexit vote.Charles said:
It's garbage, and self-serving garbage.felix said:
On March 15th when you last made this claim Richard Nabavi responded:NorfolkTilIDie said:
I don't have that as my personal conversations arent typically printed in the press. Do you have any articles suggesting I'm wrong??rcs1000 said:
If you could find me one article, or quote from a mutual fund manager, that would be great.NorfolkTilIDie said:
If you go back to what I actually said, it was that in my experience that was the case. I.e. from people I speak to. I think most press coverage has said that mutual funds want to leave EU due to regulation, which obviously applies in EEA (I think finance laws will be included in famous 9%). As far as I know there ain't been any polling on it so can't be proven either way.rcs1000 said:Hey Norfolk, would you either like to source your claim that mutual funds overwhelmingly oppose EEA with a source, or would you like to withdraw it?
"http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e90885d8-d3db-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz42y5SnqTW
The exceptions tend to be the smaller hedge funds.
The big multinational banks tend to be favour of remaining members. That's why JPM and GS are funding the Remain campaign.
The smaller companies, entrepreneurs, hedgies, brokers-dealers, etc are heavily skewed towards Brexit, but they don't the same airtime with the Corporation and others.
As a family, we are not taking a public view at the request of the chairman (who is an outside). But our leadership team, including two of the Patrimonials and three of the working partners are shifting quite markedly towards Brexit. I'm not sure where the third Patrimonial stands, but I suspect that he will probably vote the Leave eventually.0 -
Alanbrooke said:
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.
Other countries have a long-term unemployment problem among young people which will affect them for 20+ years. We have largely avoided one.
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It is why I'm going to Belfast this summer.Alanbrooke said:
Mr EaglesTheScreamingEagles said:
Robert, someone's hacked AlanBrooke's account.Alanbrooke said:
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.
as you know I'm a fair open minded kind of person, Ulstermen are known for it.0 -
However if Hilary the Hilarious ever becomes POTUS she won't play golf, strip poker is her game.Plato_Says said:I have slightly more faith that Trump will at least try, rather than play a lot of golf.
rcs1000 said:
The people are enthusiastic for someone who has promised things he cannot deliver:Plato_Says said:It's so refreshing to see Joe Average enthusiastic for a candidate who's proud of his success, rather than pretending to be like them.
The Establishment aren't doing anything for these people, no wonder they're sick of them, their fake concern and lobbyist money.Patrick said:
Nah. The American people are way too angry with the establishment. DT=POTUS.JackW said:Some bright spark PBer has been saying all along it would be a Clinton Trump contest in November but I'm afraid I simply can't recall which old Jacobite and reigning TOTY it was ....
Hilary Clinton Will Be The Forty Fifth President Of The United States.
HCWBTFFPOTUS
HRAWNBP (Hillary Rodham Antichrist will never be prez)
- the Mexican government paying for the wall
- Apple moving all its manufacturing back to the US
Given that; how is Trump (really) different from politicians everywhere?
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No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.Indigo said:
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.AlastairMeeks said:
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.DavidL said:
He said democratically.AlastairMeeks said:FPT:
Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.0 -
Ah, the daily tosh arrives. The next time the immigration figures are published and the voters throw their hands in the air in horror, the ranks of the Leave campaign are going to say "told you so, that is what you voted for".SouthamObserver said:If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.0 -
Yep, I know who you are :-)Charles said:
My comment was related to the financial services industry - although many on here know who I am, I don't want to identify myself too publicly.SouthamObserver said:
The entire senior leadership of our start-up - all of whom are extremely entrepreneurial - are convinced Remainers. I suspect a lot depends on the business you're in. The four freedoms are a huge boon to us, while the EU has proved to be no impediment to us growing in the US and Asia. All leaving the EU would do is make life more difficult - the only issue is the degree, which is why it would be good to get some clarity from Leave on where we'll end up after a Brexit vote.Charles said:
It's garbage, and self-serving garbage.felix said:
On March 15th when you last made this claim Richard Nabavi responded:NorfolkTilIDie said:
I don't have that as my personal conversations arent typically printed in the press. Do you have any articles suggesting I'm wrong??rcs1000 said:
If you could find me one article, or quote from a mutual fund manager, that would be great.NorfolkTilIDie said:
If you go back to what I actually said, it was that in my experience that was the case. I.e. from people I speak to. I think most press coverage has said that mutual funds want to leave EU due to regulation, which obviously applies in EEA (I think finance laws will be included in famous 9%). As far as I know there ain't been any polling on it so can't be proven either way.rcs1000 said:Hey Norfolk, would you either like to source your claim that mutual funds overwhelmingly oppose EEA with a source, or would you like to withdraw it?
"http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e90885d8-d3db-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz42y5SnqTW
The exceptions tend to be the smaller hedge funds.
The big multinational banks tend to be favour of remaining members. That's why JPM and GS are funding the Remain campaign.
The smaller companies, entrepreneurs, hedgies, brokers-dealers, etc are heavily skewed towards Brexit, but they don't the same airtime with the Corporation and others.
As a family, we are not taking a public view at the request of the chairman (who is an outside). But our leadership team, including two of the Patrimonials and three of the working partners are shifting quite markedly towards Brexit. I'm not sure where the third Patrimonial stands, but I suspect that he will probably vote the Leave eventually.
0 -
yeah, flip side of that of couse is our wages have stagnated, but still better in a job than not.TheWhiteRabbit said:Alanbrooke said:
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.
Other countries have a long-term unemployment problem among young people which will affect them for 20+ years. We have largely avoided one.0 -
Marching season or Game of Thrones tour ?TheScreamingEagles said:
It is why I'm going to Belfast this summer.Alanbrooke said:
Mr EaglesTheScreamingEagles said:
Robert, someone's hacked AlanBrooke's account.Alanbrooke said:
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.
as you know I'm a fair open minded kind of person, Ulstermen are known for it.0 -
Indeed - if we vote Leave then we leave, on a basis to be determined. We then have years of arguments over how Leave voters have been betrayed and calls for whatever Brexit deal is negotiated to be renegotiated. Politically it will be a lot more interesting than a Remain vote.AlastairMeeks said:
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.Indigo said:
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.AlastairMeeks said:
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.DavidL said:
He said democratically.AlastairMeeks said:FPT:
Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.
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Yes but didn't win the 1960 election which was won my Jack Kennedy. And correction; Eisenhower elected 1954 not 1953.rcs1000 said:
Nixon was Eisenhower's VP wasn't he?MikeK said:Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
Perhaps worth recalling that the last time that the Republicans won the White House without a Nixon or Bush on the ticket was 1928
Thats rubbish history Mike, Eisenhower won in 1953 and on leaving office warned of the dangers of Americas Military/Industrial complex, to which all governments have sucked up to ever afterwards.0 -
The Money Advice Service (MAS), which has provided financial and debt advice to consumers since 2010 - is to be abolished.0
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BBC
Gunman killed in Brussels raid on Tuesday identified as illegal Algerian immigrant, Belgian prosecutors say https://t.co/O89PYINT9t0 -
'The ticket' means POTUS & VP.MikeK said:
Yes but didn't win the 1960 election which was won my Jack Kennedy. And correction; Eisenhower elected 1954 not 1953.rcs1000 said:
Nixon was Eisenhower's VP wasn't he?MikeK said:Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
Perhaps worth recalling that the last time that the Republicans won the White House without a Nixon or Bush on the ticket was 1928
Thats rubbish history Mike, Eisenhower won in 1953 and on leaving office warned of the dangers of Americas Military/Industrial complex, to which all governments have sucked up to ever afterwards.0 -
I'm taking about EEA, not EU!Charles said:
I think Martin Gilbert @ Aberdeen said it wouldn't make much difference?rcs1000 said:
If you could find me one article, or quote from a mutual fund manager, that would be great.NorfolkTilIDie said:
If you go back to what I actually said, it was that in my experience that was the case. I.e. from people I speak to. I think most press coverage has said that mutual funds want to leave EU due to regulation, which obviously applies in EEA (I think finance laws will be included in famous 9%). As far as I know there ain't been any polling on it so can't be proven either way.rcs1000 said:Hey Norfolk, would you either like to source your claim that mutual funds overwhelmingly oppose EEA with a source, or would you like to withdraw it?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2016-01-12/brexit-wouldn-t-be-disastrous-for-us-aberdeen-ceo
p.s. damn I've got a good memory
Also Terry Smith @ Fundsmith
http://www.portfolio-adviser.com/news/1027674/vote-brexit-terry-smith
Crispin Odey and Hugh Sloane also also big Brexit fans, but they are not really mutual fund managers. Not really mutual anything, to be honest0 -
So, goodbye Little Marco. I had a big red on him, so that's a relief.
Looking forward, the odds on Kasich look completely barmy. There's no plausible route to the nomination for him, and yet the implied probability from his RepNom odds is something like 8%. Even if you assume a contested convention, with shadowy figures in the party bending the rules and manipulating delegates as much as they can, how on earth could they overcome the huge delegate-count leads which Trump and Cruz will have over Kasich? I can see how Cruz might be close enough so that he could conceivably win on a second, or more likely subsequent, round of voting after much horse-trading, having stuffed the Trump delegate cohorts with friendly delegates who'd switch to him once they become unbound, but you need to be reasonably close in the first place for that to be a goer.
Still, without the support of the GOP establishment, Cruz would not get much help with that strategy. It's hard to see past Trump even if they do end up with a contested convention.0 -
Nah, we won't leave if we vote leave... it'll start off with a proposal for a further referendum on what type of leave, then there'll be too much of an emergency (refugee crisis, financial crisis, whatever) to do it immediately. And so on.SouthamObserver said:
Indeed - if we vote Leave then we leave, on a basis to be determined. We then have years of arguments over how Leave voters have been betrayed and calls for whatever Brexit deal is negotiated to be renegotiated. Politically it will be a lot more interesting than a Remain vote.AlastairMeeks said:
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.Indigo said:
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.AlastairMeeks said:
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.DavidL said:
He said democratically.AlastairMeeks said:FPT:
Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.0 -
Eisenhower was elected first in 1952. Nixon was on the ticket as VP.MikeK said:
Yes but didn't win the 1960 election which was won my Jack Kennedy. And correction; Eisenhower elected 1954 not 1953.rcs1000 said:
Nixon was Eisenhower's VP wasn't he?MikeK said:Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
Perhaps worth recalling that the last time that the Republicans won the White House without a Nixon or Bush on the ticket was 1928
Thats rubbish history Mike, Eisenhower won in 1953 and on leaving office warned of the dangers of Americas Military/Industrial complex, to which all governments have sucked up to ever afterwards.0 -
I'm scratching my head at that one minute you're a risk taking entrepreneur next minute you're afraid of risk.SouthamObserver said:
Indeed - if we vote Leave then we leave, on a basis to be determined. We then have years of arguments over how Leave voters have been betrayed and calls for whatever Brexit deal is negotiated to be renegotiated. Politically it will be a lot more interesting than a Remain vote.AlastairMeeks said:
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.Indigo said:
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.AlastairMeeks said:
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.DavidL said:
He said democratically.AlastairMeeks said:FPT:
Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.0 -
So a Leave vote will mean significant reductions in immigration? Says who?Indigo said:
Ah, the daily tosh arrives. The next time the immigration figures are published and the voters throw their hands in the air in horror, the ranks of the Leave campaign are going to say "told you so, that is what you voted for".SouthamObserver said:If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.
0 -
Work. Apparently they want us to invest in Northern IrelandAlanbrooke said:
Marching season or Game of Thrones tour ?TheScreamingEagles said:
It is why I'm going to Belfast this summer.Alanbrooke said:
Mr EaglesTheScreamingEagles said:
Robert, someone's hacked AlanBrooke's account.Alanbrooke said:
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.
as you know I'm a fair open minded kind of person, Ulstermen are known for it.
I've got this brown suit that under the right light looks orange. Should I pack that one ?0 -
Pack a balaclava, you'll blend in.TheScreamingEagles said:
Work. Apparently they want us to invest in Northern IrelandAlanbrooke said:
Marching season or Game of Thrones tour ?TheScreamingEagles said:
It is why I'm going to Belfast this summer.Alanbrooke said:
Mr EaglesTheScreamingEagles said:
Robert, someone's hacked AlanBrooke's account.Alanbrooke said:
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.
as you know I'm a fair open minded kind of person, Ulstermen are known for it.
I've got this brown suit that under the right light looks orange. Should I pack that one ?
0 -
If you do, I would also pack / get a Union Jack one. Equally opportunity offence causer.TheScreamingEagles said:
Work. Apparently they want us to invest in Northern IrelandAlanbrooke said:
Marching season or Game of Thrones tour ?TheScreamingEagles said:
It is why I'm going to Belfast this summer.Alanbrooke said:
Mr EaglesTheScreamingEagles said:
Robert, someone's hacked AlanBrooke's account.Alanbrooke said:
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.
as you know I'm a fair open minded kind of person, Ulstermen are known for it.
I've got this brown suit that under the right light looks orange. Should I pack that one ?0 -
Yes, sorry, it's been a long night is my excuse. Eisenhower 1953-1961.Wanderer said:
Eisenhower was elected first in 1952. Nixon was on the ticket as VP.MikeK said:
Yes but didn't win the 1960 election which was won my Jack Kennedy. And correction; Eisenhower elected 1954 not 1953.rcs1000 said:
Nixon was Eisenhower's VP wasn't he?MikeK said:Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
Perhaps worth recalling that the last time that the Republicans won the White House without a Nixon or Bush on the ticket was 1928
Thats rubbish history Mike, Eisenhower won in 1953 and on leaving office warned of the dangers of Americas Military/Industrial complex, to which all governments have sucked up to ever afterwards.0 -
Scott_P said:
@LadPolitics: On the 08:36 to Cheltenham. Luckily, there's no politics happening today, so can go and watch the horses.
Quite right too.
Cheltenham, Day 2
1.30 Yanworth
2.10 More Of That
2.50 Rock the Kasbah
3.30 Dodging Bullets
4.10 Cantlow
4.50 Missy Tata
5.30 Ballyandy
My thoughts for the day
1.30 Yanworth
2.10 More Of That
2.50 Politologue
3.30 Sprinter Sacre
4.10 Josies Orders
4.50 Diego Du Charmil
5.30 New to the Town0 -
My thoughts for the day:-
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views.
2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults.
3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side.
4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise.
5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all. 0 -
Says the British people if they want it.SouthamObserver said:
So a Leave vote will mean significant reductions in immigration? Says who?Indigo said:
Ah, the daily tosh arrives. The next time the immigration figures are published and the voters throw their hands in the air in horror, the ranks of the Leave campaign are going to say "told you so, that is what you voted for".SouthamObserver said:If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.
I know this is proving a bit hard for you, but leaving the EU gives the British people a democratic say over their own borders. If they want to keep the four freedoms they vote for a party that supports it, if they want to pull up the drawbridge, they vote for a party that supports that. Democracy in action. All the time we are in the EU the British people have no democratic say on one of the defining characteristics of a nation state.
You appear to adhere to the Meeksian view that the British people cannot be trusted with their own destiny, which is frankly a disgraceful position to take.0 -
I am all in favour of calculated risk. I don't see the sense in giving up freedoms that make doing business a lot easier in a number of key markets, including three G8 economies, when the alternative is completely unknown.Alanbrooke said:
I'm scratching my head at that one minute you're a risk taking entrepreneur next minute you're afraid of risk.SouthamObserver said:
Indeed - if we vote Leave then we leave, on a basis to be determined. We then have years of arguments over how Leave voters have been betrayed and calls for whatever Brexit deal is negotiated to be renegotiated. Politically it will be a lot more interesting than a Remain vote.AlastairMeeks said:
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.Indigo said:
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.AlastairMeeks said:
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.DavidL said:
He said democratically.AlastairMeeks said:FPT:
Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.
0 -
Yes, Kasich's odds are nuts. I managed to lay him at 7.4 last night and I dare say others did better.Richard_Nabavi said:So, goodbye Little Marco. I had a big red on him, so that's a relief.
Looking forward, the odds on Kasich look completely barmy. There's no plausible route to the nomination for him, and yet the implied probability from his RepNom odds is something like 8%. Even if you assume a contested convention, with shadowy figures in the party bending the rules and manipulating delegates as much as they can, how on earth could they overcome the huge delegate-count leads which Trump and Cruz will have over Kasich? I can see how Cruz might be close enough so that he could conceivably win on a second, or more likely subsequent, round of voting after much horse-trading, having stuffed the Trump delegate cohorts with friendly delegates who'd switch to him once they become unbound, but you need to be reasonably close in the first place for that to be a goer.
Still, without the support of the GOP establishment, Cruz would not get much help with that strategy. It's hard to see past Trump even if they do end up with a contested convention.
If the GOP establishment is truly determined to stop Trump they will take the one option that has some hope of success and rally around Cruz (putting aside their distaste for him). They might pull that off. I think it's good to be green on Cruz.
But most probably Trump is the nominee.0 -
DWP
Over 2.3m more people are in work since 2010, maintaining a record high rate of 74.1% #getbritainworking https://t.co/XYBpqdsQzR0 -
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.Cyclefree said:My thoughts for the day:-
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views.
2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults.
3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side.
4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise.
5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
Cyclefree is now banned.0 -
More maps
Most common European surnames by country: another great map by @JakubMarian https://t.co/5wAT2wOZEO https://t.co/b0MbWcDv6h
And meanings of the most common European surnames by country, by @JakubMarian https://t.co/5wAT2wOZEO https://t.co/wrlyeudLpA0 -
Be Afridi, be very Afridi... Pakistans main man going crazy in Kolkotta0
-
Jeremy Blackburn, head of policy at The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors says:
“The Chancellor needs to put his money where his mouth is when it comes to infrastructure. Being pictured in a hard hat and high-vis is one thing, but delivering the infrastructure that this country needs is another matter entirely."
But he does look good in a hi-vis vest.
https://twitter.com/izzyfraser/status/7100473697741578240 -
But that's not how it will work in practice. On Brexit we will negotiate a deal with the EU which will be as binding as the one we currently have. That negotiation will take place before the next general election and will bind whoever is returned in 2020. So, will that agreement bring about a substantial reduction in immigration?Indigo said:
Says the British people if they want it.SouthamObserver said:
So a Leave vote will mean significant reductions in immigration? Says who?Indigo said:
Ah, the daily tosh arrives. The next time the immigration figures are published and the voters throw their hands in the air in horror, the ranks of the Leave campaign are going to say "told you so, that is what you voted for".SouthamObserver said:If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.
I know this is proving a bit hard for you, but leaving the EU gives the British people a democratic say over their own borders. If they want to keep the four freedoms they vote for a party that supports it, if they want to pull up the drawbridge, they vote for a party that supports that. Democracy in action. All the time we are in the EU the British people have no democratic say on one of the defining characteristics of a nation state.
You appear to adhere to the Meeksian view that the British people cannot be trusted with their own destiny, which is frankly a disgraceful position to take.
As things stand, the UK Parliament could vote for us to leave the EU tomorrow. It is sovereign, but has agreed to cede a level of sovereignty to the EU.
0 -
hmmmSouthamObserver said:
I am all in favour of calculated risk. I don't see the sense in giving up freedoms that make doing business a lot easier in a number of key markets, including three G8 economies, when the alternative is completely unknown.Alanbrooke said:
I'm scratching my head at that one minute you're a risk taking entrepreneur next minute you're afraid of risk.SouthamObserver said:
Indeed - if we vote Leave then we leave, n vote.AlastairMeeks said:
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.Indigo said:
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.AlastairMeeks said:
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.DavidL said:
He said democratically.AlastairMeeks said:FPT:
Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
In any case, I expect it woulhe EU.
most of the scare mongering arguments by either side are a total load of bollocks frankly.
I'm amazed seasoned PBers are pumping out some of the nonsense I've seen over the last few weeks.
To me it's very simple, theree is no one size fits all argument on EU membership, it affects people differently. People who are dependent on multinats and large corporations probably have a vested interest in voting remain since that pays their wages. People like myself who work in SME manufacturing would be better off out. Both positions are reasonable for the individuals and nobody is a liar if they state how it affects them.
The Uk will not fall in to the sea on 24th June if it votes out nor double it;s GDP if it votes in. We;ll simply have the same problems as before and some guidance on the toolbox available to us to solve them.
0 -
Ah that's the reason I keep getting banned...rcs1000 said:
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.Cyclefree said:My thoughts for the day:-
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views.
2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults.
3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side.
4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise.
5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
Cyclefree is now banned.0 -
Richard Clegg
2 million women and 244k men were not in the labour force due to looking after family or home
https://t.co/AmCCjr5quG
ONS
Join us from 12.30pm where we’ll be tweeting along to #Budget2016 with our tweeting statisticians https://t.co/AueAcC9cWp0 -
That is not the Meeksian position.Indigo said:
Says the British people if they want it.SouthamObserver said:
So a Leave vote will mean significant reductions in immigration? Says who?Indigo said:
Ah, the daily tosh arrives. The next time the immigration figures are published and the voters throw their hands in the air in horror, the ranks of the Leave campaign are going to say "told you so, that is what you voted for".SouthamObserver said:If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.
I know this is proving a bit hard for you, but leaving the EU gives the British people a democratic say over their own borders. If they want to keep the four freedoms they vote for a party that supports it, if they want to pull up the drawbridge, they vote for a party that supports that. Democracy in action. All the time we are in the EU the British people have no democratic say on one of the defining characteristics of a nation state.
You appear to adhere to the Meeksian view that the British people cannot be trusted with their own destiny, which is frankly a disgraceful position to take.
The Meeksian position is that the British people have already been trusted with their own destiny and up to this point they have decided that it was wiser to pool sovereignty with other countries in an increasingly-interconnected world than to go it alone in a spurious splendid isolation that did not enhance the choices available to the British people in practice or enrich them.
The Meeksian position is that with the EU flagging at present, it was entirely appropriate to offer a referendum at this point to determine whether that remained the case. But that required a coherent alternative to be put forward and it hasn't been.
As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.0 -
Well said. A very fair and reasonable post.Cyclefree said:My thoughts for the day:-
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views.
2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults.
3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side.
4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise.
5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
I think a lot of us could learn from this, myself included.0 -
LOLrcs1000 said:
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.Cyclefree said:My thoughts for the day:-
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views.
2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults.
3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side.
4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise.
5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
Cyclefree is now banned.
we need a bit more undirected passion in this slanging match. Normally at this point I'd get the whiskey out to help calm things down0 -
@Alanbrooke - As I said to Charles, different sectors will have different viewpoints. EU membership is a positive help to us and has not impeded our growth elsewhere. It's a fact that a consequence of Brexit could well be loss of freedoms we currently make use of and that benefit us.
0 -
The idea that, if we leave, remainers won't say 'it's because we left the EU' every time the govt release poor economic figures, every time a terrorist can't be deported etc etc is one of the most far fetched seen on here... It will be like year zero, as if there were never recessions or unemployment while we were inAlanbrooke said:
hmmmSouthamObserver said:
I a number of key markets, including three G8 economies, when the alternative is completely unknown.Alanbrooke said:
I'm scratching my head at that one minute you're a risk taking entrepreneur next minute you're afraid of risk.SouthamObserver said:
I, n vote.AlastairMeeks said:
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.Indigo said:
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.AlastairMeeks said:
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.DavidL said:
He said democratically.AlastairMeeks said:FPT:
Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
No. It ey say, just as you do.AlastairMeeks said:
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.Casino_Royale said:So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
In any case, I expect it woulhe EU.
most of the scare mongering arguments by either side are a total load of bollocks frankly.
I'm amazed seasoned PBers are pumping out some of the nonsense I've seen over the last few weeks.
To me it's very simple, theree is no one size fits all argument on EU membership, it affects people differently. People who are dependent on multinats and large corporations probably have a vested interest in voting remain since that pays their wages. People like myself who work in SME manufacturing would be better off out. Both positions are reasonable for the individuals and nobody is a liar if they state how it affects them.
The Uk will not fall in to the sea on 24th June if it votes out nor double it;s GDP if it votes in. We;ll simply have the same problems as before and some guidance on the toolbox available to us to solve them.0 -
Keep the whiskey until Sunday. I'm coming up with a controversial EU thread for Sunday.Alanbrooke said:
LOLrcs1000 said:
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.Cyclefree said:My thoughts for the day:-
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views.
2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults.
3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side.
4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise.
5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
Cyclefree is now banned.
we need a bit more undirected passion in this slanging match. Normally at this point I'd get the whiskey out to help calm things doen0 -
I don't think there is a clear cut argument on either side that sums up the economic position whatever you do you can't predict what will happen, all you can say is you have a method to address the issues as theyb arise and decide what that is.SouthamObserver said:@Alanbrooke - As I said to Charles, different sectors will have different viewpoints. EU membership is a positive help to us and has not impeded our growth elsewhere. It's a fact that a consequence of Brexit could well be loss of freedoms we currently make use of and that benefit us.
If it's remain it's collective action via the EU, if it's leave then it's negotiate what;s in your own best interests.0 -
That two paragraphs are a fancy lawyers way of saying you don't trust the British people with their own destiny. You are saying that there are certain views you don't like, and they would be more likely to flourish outside the EU, but if they flourish or not is up to the British people. People have a democratic right to adopt stupid leaders, and support stupid views, we can hope relatively rarely, but it's better than infantilizing them and saying they should not be responsible for their views and their choices but wrapped up safe at night by the EU.AlastairMeeks said:As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.
The argument about no alternative offered is bullshit as well you know, partly because Leavers have furnished you with several lengthy documents offering serious alternatives, and secondly because you persist in the fantasy that Leave have any say in the matter, rather than the elected government.0 -
Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well0 -
Does it involve the Commission being elected by AV?TheScreamingEagles said:
Keep the whiskey until Sunday. I'm coming up with a controversial EU thread for Sunday.Alanbrooke said:
LOLrcs1000 said:
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.Cyclefree said:My thoughts for the day:-
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views.
2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults.
3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side.
4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise.
5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
Cyclefree is now banned.
we need a bit more undirected passion in this slanging match. Normally at this point I'd get the whiskey out to help calm things doen0 -
I'm yet to see any Leavers post such wild eyed, extremist views as this -AlastairMeeks said:
That is not the Meeksian position.Indigo said:
Says the British people if they want it.SouthamObserver said:
So a Leave vote will mean significant reductions in immigration? Says who?Indigo said:SouthamObserver said:If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
I know this is proving a bit hard for you, but leaving the EU gives the British people a democratic say over their own borders. If they want to keep the four freedoms they vote for a party that supports it, if they want to pull up the drawbridge, they vote for a party that supports that. Democracy in action. All the time we are in the EU the British people have no democratic say on one of the defining characteristics of a nation state.
You appear to adhere to the Meeksian view that the British people cannot be trusted with their own destiny, which is frankly a disgraceful position to take.
The Meeksian position is that the British people have already been trusted with their own destiny and up to this point they have decided that it was wiser to pool sovereignty with other countries in an increasingly-interconnected world than to go it alone in a spurious splendid isolation that did not enhance the choices available to the British people in practice or enrich them.
The Meeksian position is that with the EU flagging at present, it was entirely appropriate to offer a referendum at this point to determine whether that remained the case. But that required a coherent alternative to be put forward and it hasn't been.
As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.
'You illustrate with such remarks why Leave needs to be defeated. Like so many other Leavers, you're a fake democrat, unwilling to accept a public vote unless it is decided in your favour. You're fundamentally unable to accept that others can take a different view of the matter with integrity and patriotism. You're willing to destroy every part of the political culture of this country in order to succeed on this one minor point.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.'
Take a look in the mirror.0 -
Government departments tweeting propaganda is bad enough but surely ONS tweeting anything is beyond the pale. If ONS loses its neutrality, what is the point of it?Plato_Says said:
ONS
Join us from 12.30pm where we’ll be tweeting along to #Budget2016 with our tweeting statisticians https://t.co/AueAcC9cWp0 -
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.isam said:Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
0 -
By that token do you think it's a mistake to hold the referendum at all? The issue of EU membership should also be determined in the way you describe, shouldn't it? And there is a party dedicated specifically to that goal.Indigo said:
That two paragraphs are a fancy lawyers way of saying you don't trust the British people with their own destiny. You are saying that there are certain views you don't like, and they would be more likely to flourish outside the EU, but if they flourish or not is up to the British people. People have a democratic right to adopt stupid leaders, and support stupid views, we can hope relatively rarely, but it's better than infantilizing them and saying they should not be responsible for their views and their choices but wrapped up safe at night by the EU.AlastairMeeks said:As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.0 -
Depends what they say, tbf.DecrepitJohnL said:Government departments tweeting propaganda is bad enough but surely ONS tweeting anything is beyond the pale. If ONS loses its neutrality, what is the point of it?
Plato_Says said:
ONS
Join us from 12.30pm where we’ll be tweeting along to #Budget2016 with our tweeting statisticians https://t.co/AueAcC9cWp0 -
Re the Budget
Get your fuel gauge up to the maximum and your wine cellar filled before the end of the day.0 -
The problem I see with that line is that what is in our best interests post-Brexit may not be in the best interests of those with whom we are negotiating. See, for example, free movement of people. What happens then? Something has to give.Alanbrooke said:
I don't think there is a clear cut argument on either side that sums up the economic position whatever you do you can't predict what will happen, all you can say is you have a method to address the issues as theyb arise and decide what that is.SouthamObserver said:@Alanbrooke - As I said to Charles, different sectors will have different viewpoints. EU membership is a positive help to us and has not impeded our growth elsewhere. It's a fact that a consequence of Brexit could well be loss of freedoms we currently make use of and that benefit us.
If it's remain it's collective action via the EU, if it's leave then it's negotiate what;s in your own best interests.
0 -
No. But I might work that in now.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Does it involve the Commission being elected by AV?TheScreamingEagles said:
Keep the whiskey until Sunday. I'm coming up with a controversial EU thread for Sunday.Alanbrooke said:
LOLrcs1000 said:
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.Cyclefree said:My thoughts for the day:-
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views.
2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults.
3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side.
4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise.
5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
Cyclefree is now banned.
we need a bit more undirected passion in this slanging match. Normally at this point I'd get the whiskey out to help calm things doen0 -
Not particularly, I would be equally happy if there was a follow up referendum asking the people if they want EEA or to go it alone. At least in that people would get a genuine choice, and those that want to stop immigration would see the options and the associated costs. I am a Hannan/Carswell libertarian, I don't think it is ever wrong to ask the people for permission to act in their name, the more direct democracy the better. I know certain London lawyers and various other metropolitan liberals hate the idea, because apparently you can't have the masses voting for things, apparently they can't be trusted to know what is good for them.Wanderer said:
By that token do you think it's a mistake to hold the referendum at all? The issue of EU membership should also be determined in the way you describe, shouldn't it? And there is a party dedicated specifically to that goal.Indigo said:
That two paragraphs are a fancy lawyers way of saying you don't trust the British people with their own destiny. You are saying that there are certain views you don't like, and they would be more likely to flourish outside the EU, but if they flourish or not is up to the British people. People have a democratic right to adopt stupid leaders, and support stupid views, we can hope relatively rarely, but it's better than infantilizing them and saying they should not be responsible for their views and their choices but wrapped up safe at night by the EU.AlastairMeeks said:As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.0 -
I'm totally perplexed by the assertions made that without the EU, Britons would become like Alf Garnet.
And elect a HMG full of them. Or Use Farage as some yardstick for their fears. He can't even get elected as an MP after 7 attempts.
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.0 -
People with entrepreneurial minds will always find a way. Unskilled workers have been slaughtered by EU migration, I'm amazed labour supporters don't careSouthamObserver said:
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.isam said:Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well0 -
This is how awesome Ozzy is. People Google to see if he is married to see if they are in with a shot with the greatest chancellor of the last 19 years
https://twitter.com/asabenn/status/7100541080828682250 -
OMG - he said it!!!!!!!Alanbrooke said:
It's Osborne's success storychestnut said:The claimant count is 716,700 (lowest since April 1975), while vacancies are 768,000 (highest since records began).
- there I said it.0 -
Alf Garnet? That's the bloody EU changing everyone's bleedin' name into French that is!Plato_Says said:I'm totally perplexed by the assertions made that without the EU, Britons would become like Alf Garnet.
And elect a HMG full of them. Or Use Farage as some yardstick for their fears. He can't even get elected as an MP after 7 attempts.
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.0 -
Cool map
Every person in Scotland mapped.Interactive map >> https://t.co/nAEYxVameQ https://t.co/X8cT6ass5s0 -
Utterly insane rumour I've heard floated today:
Barack Obama is to propose himself as next Supreme Court justice.
At 11am US time, today.0 -
Its the metropolitan elite worried about the availability of cheap nannies for their kids, cheap cleaners for their houses, cheap tradesmen for their houses and gardens, and cheap easy to exploit labour for their businesses. Of course they can't say that, it doesn't sound very virtuous, so they bleat on about the moral and intellectual future of the country, which sounds much higher brow and respectable.Plato_Says said:It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
0 -
Don't forget reinsuring the car and house!David_Evershed said:Re the Budget
Get your fuel gauge up to the maximum and your wine cellar filled before the end of the day.0 -
Surely, leaving the EU would mean the removal of the Common Agricultural Policy protectionist measures and enable the import of cheaper food from non EU countries?SouthamObserver said:
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.isam said:Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
It's the Corn Laws all over again. Allowing the import of cheaper corn meant poor people could afford more bread to eat.0 -
It's bollocks. The British are and will continue to be one of the most tolerant, open and welcoming societies regardless of the referendum outcome. Unlike some of our mainland cousins.Plato_Says said:I'm totally perplexed by the assertions made that without the EU, Britons would become like Alf Garnet.
And elect a HMG full of them. Or Use Farage as some yardstick for their fears. He can't even get elected as an MP after 7 attempts.
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
This strange idea that Leavers are somehow pre-surveying tall buildings and church towers in preparation for a great purge is frankly, a gross insult. And helps shine a light on those who are far less tolerant than they expect others to be.0 -
rcs1000 said:
Utterly insane rumour I've heard floated today:
Barack Obama is to propose himself as next Supreme Court justice.
At 11am US time, today.
Or his wife perhaps?0 -
You are assuming that a Brexit vote will end large-scale immigration from the EU and also that any uptick in pay packages among the unskilled will make up for higher prices. Those without jobs, of course, will just be hit by the high prices.isam said:
People with entrepreneurial minds will always find a way. Unskilled workers have been slaughtered by EU migration, I'm amazed labour supporters don't careSouthamObserver said:
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.isam said:Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
0 -
Mr. 1000, could be more insane. He could propose Trump 0
-
I would add one further point: this debate misses some of the extremely serious issues that the UK economy has - our current account deficit, the persistently low level of personal saving, our government deficit, our broken tax and benefit system, our education system.Alanbrooke said:hmmm
most of the scare mongering arguments by either side are a total load of bollocks frankly.
I'm amazed seasoned PBers are pumping out some of the nonsense I've seen over the last few weeks.
To me it's very simple, theree is no one size fits all argument on EU membership, it affects people differently. People who are dependent on multinats and large corporations probably have a vested interest in voting remain since that pays their wages. People like myself who work in SME manufacturing would be better off out. Both positions are reasonable for the individuals and nobody is a liar if they state how it affects them.
The Uk will not fall in to the sea on 24th June if it votes out nor double it;s GDP if it votes in. We;ll simply have the same problems as before and some guidance on the toolbox available to us to solve them.
It is a dereliction of duty by George Osborne, David Cameron, and many of their opponents, that these issues are being ignored.0 -
Are domestic low skilled labour costs less than 100% of the costs in the things low income people buy? If yes, then the price effect will be lower than the income effect.SouthamObserver said:
You are assuming that a Brexit vote will end large-scale immigration from the EU and also that any uptick in pay packages among the unskilled will make up for higher prices. Those without jobs, of course, will just be hit by the high prices.isam said:
People with entrepreneurial minds will always find a way. Unskilled workers have been slaughtered by EU migration, I'm amazed labour supporters don't careSouthamObserver said:
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.isam said:Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well0 -
Yep, that'll be it. :-DIndigo said:
Its the metropolitan elite worried about the availability of cheap nannies for their kids, cheap cleaners for their houses, cheap tradesmen for their houses and gardens, and cheap easy to exploit labour for their businesses. Of course they can't say that, it doesn't sound very virtuous, so they bleat on about the moral and intellectual future of the country, which sounds much higher brow and respectable.Plato_Says said:It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
I am not sure where I fit in here given that I don't have a nanny, a gardener or a cleaner and the employees I have are all on way above the minimum wage.
As for nasty, unpatriotic, exploitative metropolitan lawyers, they will make an absolute fortune from Brexit.0 -
So who on the Remain side is making these claims about race hate?watford30 said:
It's bollocks. The British are and will continue to be one of the most tolerant, open and welcoming societies regardless of the referendum outcome. Unlike some of our mainland cousins.Plato_Says said:I'm totally perplexed by the assertions made that without the EU, Britons would become like Alf Garnet.
And elect a HMG full of them. Or Use Farage as some yardstick for their fears. He can't even get elected as an MP after 7 attempts.
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
This strange idea that Leavers are somehow pre-surveying tall buildings and church towers in preparation for a great purge is frankly, a gross insult. And helps shine a light on those who are far less tolerant than they expect others to be.
0 -
Insulting is exactly the right term.
Nice to know how low their view of us goes.
Ho hum.watford30 said:
It's bollocks. The British are and will continue to be one of the most tolerant, open and welcoming societies regardless of the referendum outcome. Unlike some of our mainland cousins.Plato_Says said:I'm totally perplexed by the assertions made that without the EU, Britons would become like Alf Garnet.
And elect a HMG full of them. Or Use Farage as some yardstick for their fears. He can't even get elected as an MP after 7 attempts.
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
This strange idea that Leavers are somehow pre-surveying tall buildings and church towers in preparation for a great purge is frankly, a gross insult. And helps shine a light on those who are far less tolerant than they expect others to be.0 -
I see Huw Edwards is chairing the Budget 2016 on BBC2. I bet Andrew Neil is absolutely steaming.0
