Interestingly UK financial exports to EU are just one third of total financial exports.
Lloyds of London is Massive in the US insurance market for instance. (Comes from the San Francisco Earthquake when the telegram “pay all of our policyholders in full, irrespective of the terms of their policies” was sent by CE Heath.)
No doubt many Direct Writers these days would repudiate claims as the event was 'an Act of God' - just kidding (or am I?)
Sorry, but that's complete bollocks. It would be accurate to say that some (but not all) leavers tend towards that view (some of the time).
I mentioned yesterday that a lot more people here were finding out for the first time what it's been like as a Labour supporter for the last decade. The tactic du jour seems to be to attack primarily by falsely characterising your opponents' stance as a kind of messianic, brook-no-dissent fervour, which constantly involves impugning the motives of your own side, making accusations of lying, hypocrisy, self-hatred, false consciousness.... etc.
It's classic Crosby playbook in particular as a manoeuvre to try and claim the "moderate" "centre" ground in any argument: we are normal, they are nasty ideological extremists, just look at how they behave.
Of course the internet makes this easier because on any side there are fuckwits who troll, insult, threaten death... and so on. But it's still stooping very low to insist that is the characteristic nature of your opponents.
"I don't think that Alastair hates his own country (to that extent, it was an unfortunate juxtaposition) but I do think he distrusts his own countrymen."
When you consider the number who read the SUN MAIL and EXPRESS online and off I sure as Hell distrust my own countrymen.
"I don't think that Alastair hates his own country (to that extent, it was an unfortunate juxtaposition) but I do think he distrusts his own countrymen."
When you consider the number who read the SUN MAIL and EXPRESS online and off I sure as Hell distrust my own countrymen.
F..ing philistines most of them
Another Brit hating luvvie. You could always live full time in France. Except the French are worse, and you'll have to pay more tax.
Hey Norfolk, would you either like to source your claim that mutual funds overwhelmingly oppose EEA with a source, or would you like to withdraw it?
If you go back to what I actually said, it was that in my experience that was the case. I.e. from people I speak to. I think most press coverage has said that mutual funds want to leave EU due to regulation, which obviously applies in EEA (I think finance laws will be included in famous 9%). As far as I know there ain't been any polling on it so can't be proven either way.
If you could find me one article, or quote from a mutual fund manager, that would be great.
I don't have that as my personal conversations arent typically printed in the press. Do you have any articles suggesting I'm wrong??
On March 15th when you last made this claim Richard Nabavi responded:
The exceptions tend to be the smaller hedge funds.
It's garbage, and self-serving garbage.
The big multinational banks tend to be favour of remaining members. That's why JPM and GS are funding the Remain campaign.
The smaller companies, entrepreneurs, hedgies, brokers-dealers, etc are heavily skewed towards Brexit, but they don't the same airtime with the Corporation and others.
As a family, we are not taking a public view at the request of the chairman (who is an outside). But our leadership team, including two of the Patrimonials and three of the working partners are shifting quite markedly towards Brexit. I'm not sure where the third Patrimonial stands, but I suspect that he will probably vote the Leave eventually.
The entire senior leadership of our start-up - all of whom are extremely entrepreneurial - are convinced Remainers. I suspect a lot depends on the business you're in. The four freedoms are a huge boon to us, while the EU has proved to be no impediment to us growing in the US and Asia. All leaving the EU would do is make life more difficult - the only issue is the degree, which is why it would be good to get some clarity from Leave on where we'll end up after a Brexit vote.
Mr. 1000, alas, if only we had a Hannibal or Aurelian in charge.
I find the idea that government - in general - is a force for good in the world to be seriously misguided.
If you look at deaths caused by human beings the ratio is something like this:
1 - mudered by fellow man 100 - dead in foreign wars 1,000 - killed by own government
Giving money and power to the government is like giving whisky and car keys to teenagers.
I hardly think UK government should be withheld money from because of what Pol Pot and Stalin did.
British troops were used to train Pol Pot’s army. Our Cambodian guide, a few years ago, was very sniffy about Thatchers assistance to the regime in it’s early days.
Pol Pot's regime that was in power from 1976 to January 1979? What sort of assistance was Thatcher in a position to offer?
She went over there herself to teach hand to hand combat...
"Remaining in the EU IS a leap in the dark as we have no idea what lunatic policies the EU will come up with - and can't do anything about them".
Except that we have a vote and a veto. If we don't want Turkey to join for example then the only viable option is Remain. Most of the other options being scattered around mean accepting EU rulings with no imput
On topic, yup, it seems to be decided, and although Trump is an interesting and agile character while Hillary can be a bit dozy we probably shouldn't over-think this too much: Trump is only appealing to 30% of the voters and positively repulsive to most of the rest, so Clinton becomes president.
But does anyone have any ideas what happens to the Senate and House?
I have agreed with Alastair that, for the sake of our (up to now) good online relationship, which dates back many years, we will not engage each other directly below the line on the subject of the EU ref until after the vote. Because it does not bring out the best in either of us.
However, for the record, this is what I said last night: "I think we all know that it's precisely the prospect of Britain making its own decision for itself that scares Alastair.
Leave will never win over those who hate their own country, or distrust their own countrymen."
I don't think that Alastair hates his own country (to that extent, it was an unfortunate juxtaposition) but I do think he distrusts his own countrymen.
That is why I made the comment. If you think that by giving full democratic control to the UK you run a real risk of the UK becoming more xenophobic and intolerant, then you have a trust issue with the British electorate; one you feel can only be properly restrained by retaining a degree of international governance.
I think such a view is ludicrous and illogical, and very cynical, and I fundamentally disagree with it.
My point was that Leave will never win over people who make their assessment of which way to vote on that basis. There are others, of the Emma Thompson ilk, who simply have a disdain for their own nation.
So there is little point engaging with those who do so, because the argument will always tend to end in tears.
This reminds me a little of those marital discussions which end in "We're not going to agree so let's leave it there. But I do have to say ONE LAST THING!"
I was going to leave it (and thought it would be left) but couldn't leave the stream of comments and misrepresentations of what I said on this thread this morning go answered.
Among my many contacts in the FX market I know very few Remainers. The EU is widely seen as incompetent, corrupt and anti-market.
I think in many institutions, including the larger ones, you would find a big divide between people on the trading floors (more exit) and the bureaucrats in management (more in).
Remaining in the EU IS a leap in the dark as we have no idea what lunatic policies the EU will come up with - and can't do anything about them.
The single biggest failure of the Leave campaign to date has been not blocking the notion of the Referendum being seen as the status quo versus Something Scary. It is not a question of Brexit pulling off the serene motoring of the Euro-autobahn and off to a land signposted "Here Be Dragons". More properly we have actually reached a T-junction. One road sign points to My Decisions. The other points to Their Decisions. Underneath both, it says "Here Be Dragons".
Still plenty of time for Leave to get that point across. Better to be a slowhand than to be Remain - who seem to have a very bad case of Premature Ejaculation. They showed us everything they've got in the first 30 seconds. Eeeeuuuw.
So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
He said democratically.
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.
Most of your fellow Leavers will be starting immediately after the referendum result to subvert it if they lose. Plenty on here are quite happy to admit that.
You are doing well for sanctimony today. That is like saying after electing a labour government all the tories should throw in the towel and say "its the will of the people", not bother opposing anything, not bother trying to get re-election.
I have agreed with Alastair that, for the sake of our (up to now) good online relationship, which dates back many years, we will not engage each other directly below the line on the subject of the EU ref until after the vote. Because it does not bring out the best in either of us.
However, for the record, this is what I said last night: "I think we all know that it's precisely the prospect of Britain making its own decision for itself that scares Alastair.
Leave will never win over those who hate their own country, or distrust their own countrymen."
I don't think that Alastair hates his own country (to that extent, it was an unfortunate juxtaposition) but I do think he distrusts his own countrymen.
That is why I made the comment. If you think that by giving full democratic control to the UK you run a real risk of the UK becoming more xenophobic and intolerant, then you have a trust issue with the British electorate; one you feel can only be properly restrained by retaining a degree of international governance.
I think such a view is ludicrous and illogical, and very cynical, and I fundamentally disagree with it.
My point was that Leave will never win over people who make their assessment of which way to vote on that basis. There are others, of the Emma Thompson ilk, who simply have a disdain for their own nation.
So there is little point engaging with those who do so, because the argument will always tend to end in tears.
This reminds me a little of those marital discussions which end in "We're not going to agree so let's leave it there. But I do have to say ONE LAST THING!"
If Britain votes Remain, we'll get to hear the In camp squabbling about whether the UK goes in deep, or keeps the status quo. There will be a lot of disappointed people.
If remain wins you will not see that argument from any in the Conservative camp or many elsewhere except possibly from the likes of Tim Farron - and even then I'd doubt it. Most 'remain' supporters see the EU as flawed but better than the alterntives. Leave supporters? - perm any one from 10.
But which EU is that ?
The fantasy EU Cameron is selling to the voters, the actual EU, the ever closer union EU of next year, the ever closer union EU of ten years time ?
I cannot attempt to try and get inside your head - the deal ensures our place within the EU in a manner I am comfortable with. A more integrated Eurozone would be good for the whole European economy - including those who have chosen to remain outside the Euro.
The EU is changing - it always has and always will - you can be happy with Britain's place within the EU as it moves onwards to Ever Closer Union.
But that's not the choice in the referendum - instead there is a REMAIN option which is intrinsically false.
Your assertions are just that. I take a different view.
If you want.
I prefer to listen to the EU when it says openly that its aim is Ever Closer Union.
Yet you don't want to listen to the agreement made with Cameron which leaves us outside this. Fair enough we're not going to agree.
The semi detached Billy No Mates position is the worst of all worlds.
As we stand still and observe others feather their nests with Euro deals and progress towards greater integration we will standing on the platform and waving the train goodbye through the cloud of steam from the great old engine with a wistful tear in our eye. We are not for integration.
I just fail to see any attraction of digging my heels in and throwing a tantrum at every integrationist measure I don't like as the juggernaut moves inexorably further from my comfort zone.
We know there is more 'ever closer union' to come. We may be excluded, if we are, we end up further away from the centre, even more semi detached.
In but out but in but out is such a brainless position and goal I can't see why anyone would support stats quo or close to status quo.
Hey Norfolk, would you either like to source your claim that mutual funds overwhelmingly oppose EEA with a source, or would you like to withdraw it?
If you go back to what I actually said, it was that in my experience that was the case. I.e. from people I speak to. I think most press coverage has said that mutual funds want to leave EU due to regulation, which obviously applies in EEA (I think finance laws will be included in famous 9%). As far as I know there ain't been any polling on it so can't be proven either way.
If you could find me one article, or quote from a mutual fund manager, that would be great.
I don't have that as my personal conversations arent typically printed in the press. Do you have any articles suggesting I'm wrong??
On March 15th when you last made this claim Richard Nabavi responded:
The exceptions tend to be the smaller hedge funds.
It's garbage, and self-serving garbage.
The big multinational banks tend to be favour of remaining members. That's why JPM and GS are funding the Remain campaign.
The smaller companies, entrepreneurs, hedgies, brokers-dealers, etc are heavily skewed towards Brexit, but they don't the same airtime with the Corporation and others.
As a family, we are not taking a public view at the request of the chairman (who is an outside). But our leadership team, including two of the Patrimonials and three of the working partners are shifting quite markedly towards Brexit. I'm not sure where the third Patrimonial stands, but I suspect that he will probably vote the Leave eventually.
The entire senior leadership of our start-up - all of whom are extremely entrepreneurial - are convinced Remainers. I suspect a lot depends on the business you're in. The four freedoms are a huge boon to us, while the EU has proved to be no impediment to us growing in the US and Asia. All leaving the EU would do is make life more difficult - the only issue is the degree, which is why it would be good to get some clarity from Leave on where we'll end up after a Brexit vote.
My comment was related to the financial services industry - although many on here know who I am, I don't want to identify myself too publicly.
Remaining in the EU IS a leap in the dark as we have no idea what lunatic policies the EU will come up with - and can't do anything about them.
The single biggest failure of the Leave campaign to date has been not blocking the notion of the Referendum being seen as the status quo versus Something Scary. It is not a question of Brexit pulling off the serene motoring of the Euro-autobahn and off to a land signposted "Here Be Dragons". More properly we have actually reached a T-junction. One road sign points to My Decisions. The other points to Their Decisions. Underneath both, it says "Here Be Dragons".
Still plenty of time for Leave to get that point across. Better to be a slowhand than to be Remain - who seem to have a very bad case of Premature Ejaculation. They showed us everything they've got in the first 30 seconds. Eeeeuuuw.
Hey Norfolk, would you either like to source your claim that mutual funds overwhelmingly oppose EEA with a source, or would you like to withdraw it?
If you go back to what I actually said, it was that in my experience that was the case. I.e. from people I speak to. I think most press coverage has said that mutual funds want to leave EU due to regulation, which obviously applies in EEA (I think finance laws will be included in famous 9%). As far as I know there ain't been any polling on it so can't be proven either way.
If you could find me one article, or quote from a mutual fund manager, that would be great.
I don't have that as my personal conversations arent typically printed in the press. Do you have any articles suggesting I'm wrong??
On March 15th when you last made this claim Richard Nabavi responded:
The exceptions tend to be the smaller hedge funds.
It's garbage, and self-serving garbage.
The big multinational banks tend to be favour of remaining members. That's why JPM and GS are funding the Remain campaign.
The smaller companies, entrepreneurs, hedgies, brokers-dealers, etc are heavily skewed towards Brexit, but they don't the same airtime with the Corporation and others.
As a family, we are not taking a public view at the request of the chairman (who is an outside). But our leadership team, including two of the Patrimonials and three of the working partners are shifting quite markedly towards Brexit. I'm not sure where the third Patrimonial stands, but I suspect that he will probably vote the Leave eventually.
The entire senior leadership of our start-up - all of whom are extremely entrepreneurial - are convinced Remainers. I suspect a lot depends on the business you're in. The four freedoms are a huge boon to us, while the EU has proved to be no impediment to us growing in the US and Asia. All leaving the EU would do is make life more difficult - the only issue is the degree, which is why it would be good to get some clarity from Leave on where we'll end up after a Brexit vote.
My comment was related to the financial services industry - although many on here know who I am, I don't want to identify myself too publicly.
Indeed, everyone would hate you once they realised you were Fred Goodwin. Oops
Some bright spark PBer has been saying all along it would be a Clinton Trump contest in November but I'm afraid I simply can't recall which old Jacobite and reigning TOTY it was ....
Hilary Clinton Will Be The Forty Fifth President Of The United States.
HCWBTFFPOTUS
Nah. The American people are way too angry with the establishment. DT=POTUS.
HRAWNBP (Hillary Rodham Antichrist will never be prez)
The people are enthusiastic for someone who has promised things he cannot deliver:
- the Mexican government paying for the wall - Apple moving all its manufacturing back to the US
Given that; how is Trump (really) different from politicians everywhere?
However if Hilary the Hilarious ever becomes POTUS she won't play golf, strip poker is her game.
So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
He said democratically.
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.
If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
Ah, the daily tosh arrives. The next time the immigration figures are published and the voters throw their hands in the air in horror, the ranks of the Leave campaign are going to say "told you so, that is what you voted for".
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.
Hey Norfolk, would you either like to source your claim that mutual funds overwhelmingly oppose EEA with a source, or would you like to withdraw it?
If you go back to what I actually said, it was that in my experience that was the case. I.e. from people I speak to. I think most press coverage has said that mutual funds want to leave EU due to regulation, which obviously applies in EEA (I think finance laws will be included in famous 9%). As far as I know there ain't been any polling on it so can't be proven either way.
If you could find me one article, or quote from a mutual fund manager, that would be great.
I don't have that as my personal conversations arent typically printed in the press. Do you have any articles suggesting I'm wrong??
On March 15th when you last made this claim Richard Nabavi responded:
The exceptions tend to be the smaller hedge funds.
It's garbage, and self-serving garbage.
The big multinational banks tend to be favour of remaining members. That's why JPM and GS are funding the Remain campaign.
The smaller companies, entrepreneurs, hedgies, brokers-dealers, etc are heavily skewed towards Brexit, but they don't the same airtime with the Corporation and others.
As a family, we are not taking a public view at the request of the chairman (who is an outside). But our leadership team, including two of the Patrimonials and three of the working partners are shifting quite markedly towards Brexit. I'm not sure where the third Patrimonial stands, but I suspect that he will probably vote the Leave eventually.
The entire senior leadership of our start-up - all of whom are extremely entrepreneurial - are convinced Remainers. I suspect a lot depends on the business you're in. The four freedoms are a huge boon to us, while the EU has proved to be no impediment to us growing in the US and Asia. All leaving the EU would do is make life more difficult - the only issue is the degree, which is why it would be good to get some clarity from Leave on where we'll end up after a Brexit vote.
My comment was related to the financial services industry - although many on here know who I am, I don't want to identify myself too publicly.
So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
He said democratically.
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.
Indeed - if we vote Leave then we leave, on a basis to be determined. We then have years of arguments over how Leave voters have been betrayed and calls for whatever Brexit deal is negotiated to be renegotiated. Politically it will be a lot more interesting than a Remain vote.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB Perhaps worth recalling that the last time that the Republicans won the White House without a Nixon or Bush on the ticket was 1928
Thats rubbish history Mike, Eisenhower won in 1953 and on leaving office warned of the dangers of Americas Military/Industrial complex, to which all governments have sucked up to ever afterwards.
Nixon was Eisenhower's VP wasn't he?
Yes but didn't win the 1960 election which was won my Jack Kennedy. And correction; Eisenhower elected 1954 not 1953.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB Perhaps worth recalling that the last time that the Republicans won the White House without a Nixon or Bush on the ticket was 1928
Thats rubbish history Mike, Eisenhower won in 1953 and on leaving office warned of the dangers of Americas Military/Industrial complex, to which all governments have sucked up to ever afterwards.
Nixon was Eisenhower's VP wasn't he?
Yes but didn't win the 1960 election which was won my Jack Kennedy. And correction; Eisenhower elected 1954 not 1953.
Hey Norfolk, would you either like to source your claim that mutual funds overwhelmingly oppose EEA with a source, or would you like to withdraw it?
If you go back to what I actually said, it was that in my experience that was the case. I.e. from people I speak to. I think most press coverage has said that mutual funds want to leave EU due to regulation, which obviously applies in EEA (I think finance laws will be included in famous 9%). As far as I know there ain't been any polling on it so can't be proven either way.
If you could find me one article, or quote from a mutual fund manager, that would be great.
I think Martin Gilbert @ Aberdeen said it wouldn't make much difference?
So, goodbye Little Marco. I had a big red on him, so that's a relief.
Looking forward, the odds on Kasich look completely barmy. There's no plausible route to the nomination for him, and yet the implied probability from his RepNom odds is something like 8%. Even if you assume a contested convention, with shadowy figures in the party bending the rules and manipulating delegates as much as they can, how on earth could they overcome the huge delegate-count leads which Trump and Cruz will have over Kasich? I can see how Cruz might be close enough so that he could conceivably win on a second, or more likely subsequent, round of voting after much horse-trading, having stuffed the Trump delegate cohorts with friendly delegates who'd switch to him once they become unbound, but you need to be reasonably close in the first place for that to be a goer.
Still, without the support of the GOP establishment, Cruz would not get much help with that strategy. It's hard to see past Trump even if they do end up with a contested convention.
So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
He said democratically.
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.
Indeed - if we vote Leave then we leave, on a basis to be determined. We then have years of arguments over how Leave voters have been betrayed and calls for whatever Brexit deal is negotiated to be renegotiated. Politically it will be a lot more interesting than a Remain vote.
Nah, we won't leave if we vote leave... it'll start off with a proposal for a further referendum on what type of leave, then there'll be too much of an emergency (refugee crisis, financial crisis, whatever) to do it immediately. And so on.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB Perhaps worth recalling that the last time that the Republicans won the White House without a Nixon or Bush on the ticket was 1928
Thats rubbish history Mike, Eisenhower won in 1953 and on leaving office warned of the dangers of Americas Military/Industrial complex, to which all governments have sucked up to ever afterwards.
Nixon was Eisenhower's VP wasn't he?
Yes but didn't win the 1960 election which was won my Jack Kennedy. And correction; Eisenhower elected 1954 not 1953.
Eisenhower was elected first in 1952. Nixon was on the ticket as VP.
So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
He said democratically.
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.
Indeed - if we vote Leave then we leave, on a basis to be determined. We then have years of arguments over how Leave voters have been betrayed and calls for whatever Brexit deal is negotiated to be renegotiated. Politically it will be a lot more interesting than a Remain vote.
I'm scratching my head at that one minute you're a risk taking entrepreneur next minute you're afraid of risk.
If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
Ah, the daily tosh arrives. The next time the immigration figures are published and the voters throw their hands in the air in horror, the ranks of the Leave campaign are going to say "told you so, that is what you voted for".
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.
So a Leave vote will mean significant reductions in immigration? Says who?
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB Perhaps worth recalling that the last time that the Republicans won the White House without a Nixon or Bush on the ticket was 1928
Thats rubbish history Mike, Eisenhower won in 1953 and on leaving office warned of the dangers of Americas Military/Industrial complex, to which all governments have sucked up to ever afterwards.
Nixon was Eisenhower's VP wasn't he?
Yes but didn't win the 1960 election which was won my Jack Kennedy. And correction; Eisenhower elected 1954 not 1953.
Eisenhower was elected first in 1952. Nixon was on the ticket as VP.
Yes, sorry, it's been a long night is my excuse. Eisenhower 1953-1961.
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views. 2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults. 3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side. 4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise. 5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
Ah, the daily tosh arrives. The next time the immigration figures are published and the voters throw their hands in the air in horror, the ranks of the Leave campaign are going to say "told you so, that is what you voted for".
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.
So a Leave vote will mean significant reductions in immigration? Says who?
Says the British people if they want it.
I know this is proving a bit hard for you, but leaving the EU gives the British people a democratic say over their own borders. If they want to keep the four freedoms they vote for a party that supports it, if they want to pull up the drawbridge, they vote for a party that supports that. Democracy in action. All the time we are in the EU the British people have no democratic say on one of the defining characteristics of a nation state.
You appear to adhere to the Meeksian view that the British people cannot be trusted with their own destiny, which is frankly a disgraceful position to take.
So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
He said democratically.
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.
Indeed - if we vote Leave then we leave, on a basis to be determined. We then have years of arguments over how Leave voters have been betrayed and calls for whatever Brexit deal is negotiated to be renegotiated. Politically it will be a lot more interesting than a Remain vote.
I'm scratching my head at that one minute you're a risk taking entrepreneur next minute you're afraid of risk.
I am all in favour of calculated risk. I don't see the sense in giving up freedoms that make doing business a lot easier in a number of key markets, including three G8 economies, when the alternative is completely unknown.
So, goodbye Little Marco. I had a big red on him, so that's a relief.
Looking forward, the odds on Kasich look completely barmy. There's no plausible route to the nomination for him, and yet the implied probability from his RepNom odds is something like 8%. Even if you assume a contested convention, with shadowy figures in the party bending the rules and manipulating delegates as much as they can, how on earth could they overcome the huge delegate-count leads which Trump and Cruz will have over Kasich? I can see how Cruz might be close enough so that he could conceivably win on a second, or more likely subsequent, round of voting after much horse-trading, having stuffed the Trump delegate cohorts with friendly delegates who'd switch to him once they become unbound, but you need to be reasonably close in the first place for that to be a goer.
Still, without the support of the GOP establishment, Cruz would not get much help with that strategy. It's hard to see past Trump even if they do end up with a contested convention.
Yes, Kasich's odds are nuts. I managed to lay him at 7.4 last night and I dare say others did better.
If the GOP establishment is truly determined to stop Trump they will take the one option that has some hope of success and rally around Cruz (putting aside their distaste for him). They might pull that off. I think it's good to be green on Cruz.
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views. 2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults. 3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side. 4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise. 5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.
Jeremy Blackburn, head of policy at The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors says:
“The Chancellor needs to put his money where his mouth is when it comes to infrastructure. Being pictured in a hard hat and high-vis is one thing, but delivering the infrastructure that this country needs is another matter entirely."
If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
Ah, the daily tosh arrives. The next time the immigration figures are published and the voters throw their hands in the air in horror, the ranks of the Leave campaign are going to say "told you so, that is what you voted for".
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.
So a Leave vote will mean significant reductions in immigration? Says who?
Says the British people if they want it.
I know this is proving a bit hard for you, but leaving the EU gives the British people a democratic say over their own borders. If they want to keep the four freedoms they vote for a party that supports it, if they want to pull up the drawbridge, they vote for a party that supports that. Democracy in action. All the time we are in the EU the British people have no democratic say on one of the defining characteristics of a nation state.
You appear to adhere to the Meeksian view that the British people cannot be trusted with their own destiny, which is frankly a disgraceful position to take.
But that's not how it will work in practice. On Brexit we will negotiate a deal with the EU which will be as binding as the one we currently have. That negotiation will take place before the next general election and will bind whoever is returned in 2020. So, will that agreement bring about a substantial reduction in immigration?
As things stand, the UK Parliament could vote for us to leave the EU tomorrow. It is sovereign, but has agreed to cede a level of sovereignty to the EU.
So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.
No. It was not a slur; it was a fair comment.
And I will comment as I see fit on the EU referendum Alastair, and my perceptions of the motives of those who vote either way, based upon what they say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
He said democratically.
I will accept, with foreboding and regret, a vote to Leave.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.
In any case, I expect it woulhe EU.
Indeed - if we vote Leave then we leave, n vote.
I'm scratching my head at that one minute you're a risk taking entrepreneur next minute you're afraid of risk.
I am all in favour of calculated risk. I don't see the sense in giving up freedoms that make doing business a lot easier in a number of key markets, including three G8 economies, when the alternative is completely unknown.
hmmm
most of the scare mongering arguments by either side are a total load of bollocks frankly.
I'm amazed seasoned PBers are pumping out some of the nonsense I've seen over the last few weeks.
To me it's very simple, theree is no one size fits all argument on EU membership, it affects people differently. People who are dependent on multinats and large corporations probably have a vested interest in voting remain since that pays their wages. People like myself who work in SME manufacturing would be better off out. Both positions are reasonable for the individuals and nobody is a liar if they state how it affects them.
The Uk will not fall in to the sea on 24th June if it votes out nor double it;s GDP if it votes in. We;ll simply have the same problems as before and some guidance on the toolbox available to us to solve them.
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views. 2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults. 3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side. 4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise. 5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.
If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
Ah, the daily tosh arrives. The next time the immigration figures are published and the voters throw their hands in the air in horror, the ranks of the Leave campaign are going to say "told you so, that is what you voted for".
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.
So a Leave vote will mean significant reductions in immigration? Says who?
Says the British people if they want it.
I know this is proving a bit hard for you, but leaving the EU gives the British people a democratic say over their own borders. If they want to keep the four freedoms they vote for a party that supports it, if they want to pull up the drawbridge, they vote for a party that supports that. Democracy in action. All the time we are in the EU the British people have no democratic say on one of the defining characteristics of a nation state.
You appear to adhere to the Meeksian view that the British people cannot be trusted with their own destiny, which is frankly a disgraceful position to take.
That is not the Meeksian position.
The Meeksian position is that the British people have already been trusted with their own destiny and up to this point they have decided that it was wiser to pool sovereignty with other countries in an increasingly-interconnected world than to go it alone in a spurious splendid isolation that did not enhance the choices available to the British people in practice or enrich them.
The Meeksian position is that with the EU flagging at present, it was entirely appropriate to offer a referendum at this point to determine whether that remained the case. But that required a coherent alternative to be put forward and it hasn't been.
As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views. 2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults. 3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side. 4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise. 5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
Well said. A very fair and reasonable post.
I think a lot of us could learn from this, myself included.
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views. 2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults. 3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side. 4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise. 5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.
Cyclefree is now banned.
LOL
we need a bit more undirected passion in this slanging match. Normally at this point I'd get the whiskey out to help calm things down
@Alanbrooke - As I said to Charles, different sectors will have different viewpoints. EU membership is a positive help to us and has not impeded our growth elsewhere. It's a fact that a consequence of Brexit could well be loss of freedoms we currently make use of and that benefit us.
So how feasible is it for Trump to get over the line now?
Can he do it? WILL he do it?
I give you another opportunity to withdraw the slur you made last night.
No. It ey say, just as you do.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.
He said democratically.
Few Leavers are able to say the reverse.
Like hell you will, you will be campaigning for a rejoin from the day of the vote.
No, I won't. If a decision to Leave is taken, we need to Leave and follow that course.
In any case, I expect it woulhe EU.
I, n vote.
I'm scratching my head at that one minute you're a risk taking entrepreneur next minute you're afraid of risk.
I a number of key markets, including three G8 economies, when the alternative is completely unknown.
hmmm
most of the scare mongering arguments by either side are a total load of bollocks frankly.
I'm amazed seasoned PBers are pumping out some of the nonsense I've seen over the last few weeks.
To me it's very simple, theree is no one size fits all argument on EU membership, it affects people differently. People who are dependent on multinats and large corporations probably have a vested interest in voting remain since that pays their wages. People like myself who work in SME manufacturing would be better off out. Both positions are reasonable for the individuals and nobody is a liar if they state how it affects them.
The Uk will not fall in to the sea on 24th June if it votes out nor double it;s GDP if it votes in. We;ll simply have the same problems as before and some guidance on the toolbox available to us to solve them.
The idea that, if we leave, remainers won't say 'it's because we left the EU' every time the govt release poor economic figures, every time a terrorist can't be deported etc etc is one of the most far fetched seen on here... It will be like year zero, as if there were never recessions or unemployment while we were in
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views. 2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults. 3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side. 4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise. 5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.
Cyclefree is now banned.
LOL
we need a bit more undirected passion in this slanging match. Normally at this point I'd get the whiskey out to help calm things doen
Keep the whiskey until Sunday. I'm coming up with a controversial EU thread for Sunday.
@Alanbrooke - As I said to Charles, different sectors will have different viewpoints. EU membership is a positive help to us and has not impeded our growth elsewhere. It's a fact that a consequence of Brexit could well be loss of freedoms we currently make use of and that benefit us.
I don't think there is a clear cut argument on either side that sums up the economic position whatever you do you can't predict what will happen, all you can say is you have a method to address the issues as theyb arise and decide what that is.
If it's remain it's collective action via the EU, if it's leave then it's negotiate what;s in your own best interests.
As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.
That two paragraphs are a fancy lawyers way of saying you don't trust the British people with their own destiny. You are saying that there are certain views you don't like, and they would be more likely to flourish outside the EU, but if they flourish or not is up to the British people. People have a democratic right to adopt stupid leaders, and support stupid views, we can hope relatively rarely, but it's better than infantilizing them and saying they should not be responsible for their views and their choices but wrapped up safe at night by the EU.
The argument about no alternative offered is bullshit as well you know, partly because Leavers have furnished you with several lengthy documents offering serious alternatives, and secondly because you persist in the fantasy that Leave have any say in the matter, rather than the elected government.
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views. 2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults. 3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side. 4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise. 5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.
Cyclefree is now banned.
LOL
we need a bit more undirected passion in this slanging match. Normally at this point I'd get the whiskey out to help calm things doen
Keep the whiskey until Sunday. I'm coming up with a controversial EU thread for Sunday.
Does it involve the Commission being elected by AV?
If Remain wins I will be relieved. Then like most on both sides I'll forget all about the EU again. This is not a subject most voters are passionate about.
So a Leave vote will mean significant reductions in immigration? Says who?
Says the British people if they want it.
I know this is proving a bit hard for you, but leaving the EU gives the British people a democratic say over their own borders. If they want to keep the four freedoms they vote for a party that supports it, if they want to pull up the drawbridge, they vote for a party that supports that. Democracy in action. All the time we are in the EU the British people have no democratic say on one of the defining characteristics of a nation state.
You appear to adhere to the Meeksian view that the British people cannot be trusted with their own destiny, which is frankly a disgraceful position to take.
That is not the Meeksian position.
The Meeksian position is that the British people have already been trusted with their own destiny and up to this point they have decided that it was wiser to pool sovereignty with other countries in an increasingly-interconnected world than to go it alone in a spurious splendid isolation that did not enhance the choices available to the British people in practice or enrich them.
The Meeksian position is that with the EU flagging at present, it was entirely appropriate to offer a referendum at this point to determine whether that remained the case. But that required a coherent alternative to be put forward and it hasn't been.
As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.
I'm yet to see any Leavers post such wild eyed, extremist views as this -
'You illustrate with such remarks why Leave needs to be defeated. Like so many other Leavers, you're a fake democrat, unwilling to accept a public vote unless it is decided in your favour. You're fundamentally unable to accept that others can take a different view of the matter with integrity and patriotism. You're willing to destroy every part of the political culture of this country in order to succeed on this one minor point.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.'
Government departments tweeting propaganda is bad enough but surely ONS tweeting anything is beyond the pale. If ONS loses its neutrality, what is the point of it?
As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.
That two paragraphs are a fancy lawyers way of saying you don't trust the British people with their own destiny. You are saying that there are certain views you don't like, and they would be more likely to flourish outside the EU, but if they flourish or not is up to the British people. People have a democratic right to adopt stupid leaders, and support stupid views, we can hope relatively rarely, but it's better than infantilizing them and saying they should not be responsible for their views and their choices but wrapped up safe at night by the EU.
By that token do you think it's a mistake to hold the referendum at all? The issue of EU membership should also be determined in the way you describe, shouldn't it? And there is a party dedicated specifically to that goal.
Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.
Government departments tweeting propaganda is bad enough but surely ONS tweeting anything is beyond the pale. If ONS loses its neutrality, what is the point of it?
@Alanbrooke - As I said to Charles, different sectors will have different viewpoints. EU membership is a positive help to us and has not impeded our growth elsewhere. It's a fact that a consequence of Brexit could well be loss of freedoms we currently make use of and that benefit us.
I don't think there is a clear cut argument on either side that sums up the economic position whatever you do you can't predict what will happen, all you can say is you have a method to address the issues as theyb arise and decide what that is.
If it's remain it's collective action via the EU, if it's leave then it's negotiate what;s in your own best interests.
The problem I see with that line is that what is in our best interests post-Brexit may not be in the best interests of those with whom we are negotiating. See, for example, free movement of people. What happens then? Something has to give.
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views. 2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults. 3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side. 4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise. 5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.
Cyclefree is now banned.
LOL
we need a bit more undirected passion in this slanging match. Normally at this point I'd get the whiskey out to help calm things doen
Keep the whiskey until Sunday. I'm coming up with a controversial EU thread for Sunday.
Does it involve the Commission being elected by AV?
As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.
That two paragraphs are a fancy lawyers way of saying you don't trust the British people with their own destiny. You are saying that there are certain views you don't like, and they would be more likely to flourish outside the EU, but if they flourish or not is up to the British people. People have a democratic right to adopt stupid leaders, and support stupid views, we can hope relatively rarely, but it's better than infantilizing them and saying they should not be responsible for their views and their choices but wrapped up safe at night by the EU.
By that token do you think it's a mistake to hold the referendum at all? The issue of EU membership should also be determined in the way you describe, shouldn't it? And there is a party dedicated specifically to that goal.
Not particularly, I would be equally happy if there was a follow up referendum asking the people if they want EEA or to go it alone. At least in that people would get a genuine choice, and those that want to stop immigration would see the options and the associated costs. I am a Hannan/Carswell libertarian, I don't think it is ever wrong to ask the people for permission to act in their name, the more direct democracy the better. I know certain London lawyers and various other metropolitan liberals hate the idea, because apparently you can't have the masses voting for things, apparently they can't be trusted to know what is good for them.
Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.
People with entrepreneurial minds will always find a way. Unskilled workers have been slaughtered by EU migration, I'm amazed labour supporters don't care
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
Its the metropolitan elite worried about the availability of cheap nannies for their kids, cheap cleaners for their houses, cheap tradesmen for their houses and gardens, and cheap easy to exploit labour for their businesses. Of course they can't say that, it doesn't sound very virtuous, so they bleat on about the moral and intellectual future of the country, which sounds much higher brow and respectable.
Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.
Surely, leaving the EU would mean the removal of the Common Agricultural Policy protectionist measures and enable the import of cheaper food from non EU countries?
It's the Corn Laws all over again. Allowing the import of cheaper corn meant poor people could afford more bread to eat.
I'm totally perplexed by the assertions made that without the EU, Britons would become like Alf Garnet.
And elect a HMG full of them. Or Use Farage as some yardstick for their fears. He can't even get elected as an MP after 7 attempts.
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
It's bollocks. The British are and will continue to be one of the most tolerant, open and welcoming societies regardless of the referendum outcome. Unlike some of our mainland cousins.
This strange idea that Leavers are somehow pre-surveying tall buildings and church towers in preparation for a great purge is frankly, a gross insult. And helps shine a light on those who are far less tolerant than they expect others to be.
Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.
People with entrepreneurial minds will always find a way. Unskilled workers have been slaughtered by EU migration, I'm amazed labour supporters don't care
You are assuming that a Brexit vote will end large-scale immigration from the EU and also that any uptick in pay packages among the unskilled will make up for higher prices. Those without jobs, of course, will just be hit by the high prices.
most of the scare mongering arguments by either side are a total load of bollocks frankly.
I'm amazed seasoned PBers are pumping out some of the nonsense I've seen over the last few weeks.
To me it's very simple, theree is no one size fits all argument on EU membership, it affects people differently. People who are dependent on multinats and large corporations probably have a vested interest in voting remain since that pays their wages. People like myself who work in SME manufacturing would be better off out. Both positions are reasonable for the individuals and nobody is a liar if they state how it affects them.
The Uk will not fall in to the sea on 24th June if it votes out nor double it;s GDP if it votes in. We;ll simply have the same problems as before and some guidance on the toolbox available to us to solve them.
I would add one further point: this debate misses some of the extremely serious issues that the UK economy has - our current account deficit, the persistently low level of personal saving, our government deficit, our broken tax and benefit system, our education system.
It is a dereliction of duty by George Osborne, David Cameron, and many of their opponents, that these issues are being ignored.
Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.
People with entrepreneurial minds will always find a way. Unskilled workers have been slaughtered by EU migration, I'm amazed labour supporters don't care
You are assuming that a Brexit vote will end large-scale immigration from the EU and also that any uptick in pay packages among the unskilled will make up for higher prices. Those without jobs, of course, will just be hit by the high prices.
Are domestic low skilled labour costs less than 100% of the costs in the things low income people buy? If yes, then the price effect will be lower than the income effect.
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
Its the metropolitan elite worried about the availability of cheap nannies for their kids, cheap cleaners for their houses, cheap tradesmen for their houses and gardens, and cheap easy to exploit labour for their businesses. Of course they can't say that, it doesn't sound very virtuous, so they bleat on about the moral and intellectual future of the country, which sounds much higher brow and respectable.
Yep, that'll be it. :-D
I am not sure where I fit in here given that I don't have a nanny, a gardener or a cleaner and the employees I have are all on way above the minimum wage.
As for nasty, unpatriotic, exploitative metropolitan lawyers, they will make an absolute fortune from Brexit.
I'm totally perplexed by the assertions made that without the EU, Britons would become like Alf Garnet.
And elect a HMG full of them. Or Use Farage as some yardstick for their fears. He can't even get elected as an MP after 7 attempts.
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
It's bollocks. The British are and will continue to be one of the most tolerant, open and welcoming societies regardless of the referendum outcome. Unlike some of our mainland cousins.
This strange idea that Leavers are somehow pre-surveying tall buildings and church towers in preparation for a great purge is frankly, a gross insult. And helps shine a light on those who are far less tolerant than they expect others to be.
So who on the Remain side is making these claims about race hate?
I'm totally perplexed by the assertions made that without the EU, Britons would become like Alf Garnet.
And elect a HMG full of them. Or Use Farage as some yardstick for their fears. He can't even get elected as an MP after 7 attempts.
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
It's bollocks. The British are and will continue to be one of the most tolerant, open and welcoming societies regardless of the referendum outcome. Unlike some of our mainland cousins.
This strange idea that Leavers are somehow pre-surveying tall buildings and church towers in preparation for a great purge is frankly, a gross insult. And helps shine a light on those who are far less tolerant than they expect others to be.
Comments
Commons Library
What was behind UK #GDP growth in 2015? https://t.co/QCplbeGIGV #Budget2016 https://t.co/pWdar3ZdD5
No doubt many Direct Writers these days would repudiate claims as the event was 'an Act of God' - just kidding (or am I?)
"I don't think that Alastair hates his own country (to that extent, it was an unfortunate juxtaposition) but I do think he distrusts his own countrymen."
When you consider the number who read the SUN MAIL and EXPRESS online and off I sure as Hell distrust my own countrymen.
F..ing philistines most of them
Did you see this?
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/22/middleeast/france-israel-jews-immigration/
Dearie me. All about ISIS and such like.
Horrendous design and that odious buffoon Farage on it. UKIP really should have done away with him last year.
Leave need to lock him in a cupboard somewhere. Ankara, perhaps.
"Remaining in the EU IS a leap in the dark as we have no idea what lunatic policies the EU will come up with - and can't do anything about them".
Except that we have a vote and a veto. If we don't want Turkey to join for example then the only viable option is Remain. Most of the other options being scattered around mean accepting EU rulings with no imput
But does anyone have any ideas what happens to the Senate and House?
I have now said all I will say on the matter.
Among my many contacts in the FX market I know very few Remainers. The EU is widely seen as incompetent, corrupt and anti-market.
I think in many institutions, including the larger ones, you would find a big divide between people on the trading floors (more exit) and the bureaucrats in management (more in).
Still plenty of time for Leave to get that point across. Better to be a slowhand than to be Remain - who seem to have a very bad case of Premature Ejaculation. They showed us everything they've got in the first 30 seconds. Eeeeuuuw.
As we stand still and observe others feather their nests with Euro deals and progress towards greater integration we will standing on the platform and waving the train goodbye through the cloud of steam from the great old engine with a wistful tear in our eye. We are not for integration.
I just fail to see any attraction of digging my heels in and throwing a tantrum at every integrationist measure I don't like as the juggernaut moves inexorably further from my comfort zone.
We know there is more 'ever closer union' to come. We may be excluded, if we are, we end up further away from the centre, even more semi detached.
In but out but in but out is such a brainless position and goal I can't see why anyone would support stats quo or close to status quo.
Either in hook line and sinker or out.
- there I said it.
Reagan could have put Benedict Arnold on the ticket and still won in 1980 and 1984
Still, another 98 days to go?!
as you know I'm a fair open minded kind of person, Ulstermen are known for it.
Other countries have a long-term unemployment problem among young people which will affect them for 20+ years. We have largely avoided one.
In any case, I expect it would be an entirely theoretical matter: once Britain decides to leave, I cannot conceive that the EU would want Britain back unless and until it was apparent that it would be a settled part of the EU.
For some reason people like to claim that voters don't care about the EU, and yet continuously gloss over that the majority of items in the list of issues that public care most about are intrinsically linked to EU membership.
Gunman killed in Brussels raid on Tuesday identified as illegal Algerian immigrant, Belgian prosecutors say https://t.co/O89PYINT9t
Looking forward, the odds on Kasich look completely barmy. There's no plausible route to the nomination for him, and yet the implied probability from his RepNom odds is something like 8%. Even if you assume a contested convention, with shadowy figures in the party bending the rules and manipulating delegates as much as they can, how on earth could they overcome the huge delegate-count leads which Trump and Cruz will have over Kasich? I can see how Cruz might be close enough so that he could conceivably win on a second, or more likely subsequent, round of voting after much horse-trading, having stuffed the Trump delegate cohorts with friendly delegates who'd switch to him once they become unbound, but you need to be reasonably close in the first place for that to be a goer.
Still, without the support of the GOP establishment, Cruz would not get much help with that strategy. It's hard to see past Trump even if they do end up with a contested convention.
I've got this brown suit that under the right light looks orange. Should I pack that one ?
My thoughts for the day
1.30 Yanworth
2.10 More Of That
2.50 Politologue
3.30 Sprinter Sacre
4.10 Josies Orders
4.50 Diego Du Charmil
5.30 New to the Town
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views.
2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults.
3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side.
4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise.
5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
I know this is proving a bit hard for you, but leaving the EU gives the British people a democratic say over their own borders. If they want to keep the four freedoms they vote for a party that supports it, if they want to pull up the drawbridge, they vote for a party that supports that. Democracy in action. All the time we are in the EU the British people have no democratic say on one of the defining characteristics of a nation state.
You appear to adhere to the Meeksian view that the British people cannot be trusted with their own destiny, which is frankly a disgraceful position to take.
If the GOP establishment is truly determined to stop Trump they will take the one option that has some hope of success and rally around Cruz (putting aside their distaste for him). They might pull that off. I think it's good to be green on Cruz.
But most probably Trump is the nominee.
Over 2.3m more people are in work since 2010, maintaining a record high rate of 74.1% #getbritainworking https://t.co/XYBpqdsQzR
Cyclefree is now banned.
Most common European surnames by country: another great map by @JakubMarian https://t.co/5wAT2wOZEO https://t.co/b0MbWcDv6h
And meanings of the most common European surnames by country, by @JakubMarian https://t.co/5wAT2wOZEO https://t.co/wrlyeudLpA
https://twitter.com/izzyfraser/status/710047369774157824
As things stand, the UK Parliament could vote for us to leave the EU tomorrow. It is sovereign, but has agreed to cede a level of sovereignty to the EU.
most of the scare mongering arguments by either side are a total load of bollocks frankly.
I'm amazed seasoned PBers are pumping out some of the nonsense I've seen over the last few weeks.
To me it's very simple, theree is no one size fits all argument on EU membership, it affects people differently. People who are dependent on multinats and large corporations probably have a vested interest in voting remain since that pays their wages. People like myself who work in SME manufacturing would be better off out. Both positions are reasonable for the individuals and nobody is a liar if they state how it affects them.
The Uk will not fall in to the sea on 24th June if it votes out nor double it;s GDP if it votes in. We;ll simply have the same problems as before and some guidance on the toolbox available to us to solve them.
2 million women and 244k men were not in the labour force due to looking after family or home
https://t.co/AmCCjr5quG
ONS
Join us from 12.30pm where we’ll be tweeting along to #Budget2016 with our tweeting statisticians https://t.co/AueAcC9cWp
The Meeksian position is that the British people have already been trusted with their own destiny and up to this point they have decided that it was wiser to pool sovereignty with other countries in an increasingly-interconnected world than to go it alone in a spurious splendid isolation that did not enhance the choices available to the British people in practice or enrich them.
The Meeksian position is that with the EU flagging at present, it was entirely appropriate to offer a referendum at this point to determine whether that remained the case. But that required a coherent alternative to be put forward and it hasn't been.
As a consequence, any vote to leave will inevitably result in the country becoming more divided and more unhappy, and in all probability less rich. In those circumstances, extremist views, already being put forward by the wilder-eyed Leavers, will inevitably flourish.
There are those on the Leave side who don't care about that and who regard Britain's exit from the EU as more important than the health of the country's public life and economy. That is pretty disgraceful if you ask me.
I think a lot of us could learn from this, myself included.
we need a bit more undirected passion in this slanging match. Normally at this point I'd get the whiskey out to help calm things down
If it's remain it's collective action via the EU, if it's leave then it's negotiate what;s in your own best interests.
The argument about no alternative offered is bullshit as well you know, partly because Leavers have furnished you with several lengthy documents offering serious alternatives, and secondly because you persist in the fantasy that Leave have any say in the matter, rather than the elected government.
Oh well
'You illustrate with such remarks why Leave needs to be defeated. Like so many other Leavers, you're a fake democrat, unwilling to accept a public vote unless it is decided in your favour. You're fundamentally unable to accept that others can take a different view of the matter with integrity and patriotism. You're willing to destroy every part of the political culture of this country in order to succeed on this one minor point.
This fake democracy movement needs to be crushed.'
Take a look in the mirror.
Get your fuel gauge up to the maximum and your wine cellar filled before the end of the day.
And elect a HMG full of them. Or Use Farage as some yardstick for their fears. He can't even get elected as an MP after 7 attempts.
It's a nonsense phobia. We're one of the most liberal democracies in the EU. We did that ourselves.
https://twitter.com/asabenn/status/710054108082868225
Every person in Scotland mapped.Interactive map >> https://t.co/nAEYxVameQ https://t.co/X8cT6ass5s
Barack Obama is to propose himself as next Supreme Court justice.
At 11am US time, today.
It's the Corn Laws all over again. Allowing the import of cheaper corn meant poor people could afford more bread to eat.
This strange idea that Leavers are somehow pre-surveying tall buildings and church towers in preparation for a great purge is frankly, a gross insult. And helps shine a light on those who are far less tolerant than they expect others to be.
Or his wife perhaps?
It is a dereliction of duty by George Osborne, David Cameron, and many of their opponents, that these issues are being ignored.
I am not sure where I fit in here given that I don't have a nanny, a gardener or a cleaner and the employees I have are all on way above the minimum wage.
As for nasty, unpatriotic, exploitative metropolitan lawyers, they will make an absolute fortune from Brexit.
Nice to know how low their view of us goes.
Ho hum.