Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.
People with entrepreneurial minds will always find a way. Unskilled workers have been slaughtered by EU migration, I'm amazed labour supporters don't care
You are assuming that a Brexit vote will end large-scale immigration from the EU and also that any uptick in pay packages among the unskilled will make up for higher prices. Those without jobs, of course, will just be hit by the high prices.
Those without jobs will have less competition from people who have an inbuilt advantage over them
Labour voters who are pro EU are trade unionists who undercut their workers
most of the scare mongering arguments by either side are a total load of bollocks frankly.
I'm amazed seasoned PBers are pumping out some of the nonsense I've seen over the last few weeks.
To me it's very simple, theree is no one size fits all argument on EU membership, it affects people differently. People who are dependent on multinats and large corporations probably have a vested interest in voting remain since that pays their wages. People like myself who work in SME manufacturing would be better off out. Both positions are reasonable for the individuals and nobody is a liar if they state how it affects them.
The Uk will not fall in to the sea on 24th June if it votes out nor double it;s GDP if it votes in. We;ll simply have the same problems as before and some guidance on the toolbox available to us to solve them.
I would add one further point: this debate misses some of the extremely serious issues that the UK economy has - our current account deficit, the persistently low level of personal saving, our government deficit, our broken tax and benefit system, our education system.
It is a dereliction of duty by George Osborne, David Cameron, and many of their opponents, that these issues are being ignored.
shit Robert you've stolen my posts for the rest of this Parliament ! :-)
Polls are all well and good but actual votes are a lot more interesting. In Missouri Cruz piled up the votes in the evangelical heartland in the SW around Springfield, comfortable Trump win otherwise. Trump needs to peel of the less committed Cruz supporters, a real thorn in his side denying him quite a few delegates. MO was a decent Trump result otherwise but still suggest issues in the Plains and Rocky Mountain states, for the primaries, general easy GOP wins as always.
In Ohio Trump did really well in counties bordering PA, getting 50% against a popular governor of the state. Bodes well for PA, an election held there to day and he should get 60% or so in western PA. Which in turn bodes well for the general, as does turnout in states across the Rust Belt again last night. Illinois was a good result, even if an impossible take in the general.
Florida looks a definite take for Trump in the general too, big win for Trump against a wall of negative ads directed at him, phenomenal achievement.
Government departments tweeting propaganda is bad enough but surely ONS tweeting anything is beyond the pale. If ONS loses its neutrality, what is the point of it?
ONS Join us from 12.30pm where we’ll be tweeting along to #Budget2016 with our tweeting statisticians https://t.co/AueAcC9cWp
Depends what they say, tbf.
Whatever they say, someone will take exception to it. Exhibit A: the EUref debate on pb. How will ONS avoid charges they've been fed key lines in support of HMG or just to make LOTO's response harder (assuming Corbyn does not follow Twitter from the front bench)? It is a stupid and dangerous idea that should have been quashed; ONS must not only be neutral, it must be seen to be neutral.
Morning all. Trying to catch up on a week's worth of threads after a busy few days of work - not happening, there's about 20k comments in the past week, half of which seem to be on the increasingly hyperbolic EU debate. Ho Hum, budget time!
I see Huw Edwards is chairing the Budget 2016 on BBC2. I bet Andrew Neil is absolutely steaming.
Andrew Neil’s strengths will be utilised in other areas, he’s much better at skewering politicians on a one to one basis and don’t think he’ll begrudge the excellant Huw Edwards getting the top spot for the budget.
Hopefully this spells the end of Dimblebore as the BBC’s anchor for major political events.
Morning all. Trying to catch up on a week's worth of threads after a busy few days of work - not happening, there's about 20k comments in the past week, half of which seem to be on the increasingly hyperbolic EU debate. Ho Hum, budget time!
@Alanbrooke - As I said to Charles, different sectors will have different viewpoints. EU membership is a positive help to us and has not impeded our growth elsewhere. It's a fact that a consequence of Brexit could well be loss of freedoms we currently make use of and that benefit us.
I don't think there is a clear cut argument on either side that sums up the economic position whatever you do you can't predict what will happen, all you can say is you have a method to address the issues as theyb arise and decide what that is.
If it's remain it's collective action via the EU, if it's leave then it's negotiate what;s in your own best interests.
The problem I see with that line is that what is in our best interests post-Brexit may not be in the best interests of those with whom we are negotiating. See, for example, free movement of people. What happens then? Something has to give.
Of course something has to give that's the point of change.
The Dave deal is not set in aspic there will be change foisted upon us if we remain. Likewise in leave there will be negotiations that aren't win win.
But your choice is do you think you can handle your problems better yourself or do you want somebody else to do it for you.
most of the scare mongering arguments by either side are a total load of bollocks frankly.
I'm amazed seasoned PBers are pumping out some of the nonsense I've seen over the last few weeks.
To me it's very simple, theree is no one size fits all argument on EU membership, it affects people differently. People who are dependent on multinats and large corporations probably have a vested interest in voting remain since that pays their wages. People like myself who work in SME manufacturing would be better off out. Both positions are reasonable for the individuals and nobody is a liar if they state how it affects them.
The Uk will not fall in to the sea on 24th June if it votes out nor double it;s GDP if it votes in. We;ll simply have the same problems as before and some guidance on the toolbox available to us to solve them.
I would add one further point: this debate misses some of the extremely serious issues that the UK economy has - our current account deficit, the persistently low level of personal saving, our government deficit, our broken tax and benefit system, our education system.
It is a dereliction of duty by George Osborne, David Cameron, and many of their opponents, that these issues are being ignored.
Plus productivity in the Uk is well below our major competitors like the USA, Germany and France.
Increased wealth of the nation requires increased productivity.
Well, I would also have been angry, if this had happened to me:
The employees who kept the data systems humming in the vast Walt Disney fantasy fief did not suspect trouble when they were suddenly summoned to meetings with their boss.
While families rode the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train and searched for Nemo on clamobiles in the theme parks, these workers monitored computers in industrial buildings nearby, making sure millions of Walt Disney World ticket sales, store purchases and hotel reservations went through without a hitch. Some were performing so well that they thought they had been called in for bonuses.
Instead, about 250 Disney employees were told in late October that they would be laid off. Many of their jobs were transferred to immigrants on temporary visas for highly skilled technical workers, who were brought in by an outsourcing firm based in India. Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train their replacements to do the jobs they had lost.
“I just couldn’t believe they could fly people in to sit at our desks and take over our jobs exactly,” said one former worker, an American in his 40s who remains unemployed since his last day at Disney on Jan. 30. “It was so humiliating to train somebody else to take over your job. I still can’t grasp it.”
1. I enjoy Mr Meeks' headers and comments. They are thoughtful and make me think about my own position and views. 2. It is not fair to characterise someone with whom you disagree as unpatriotic / racist / etc unless there's some actual evidence of this. Unless you're SeanT, of course, who has cornered the market in extravagantly flamboyant, funny and often unfair insults. 3. The EU question is a difficult one: there are legitimate and honourable reasons for voting on either side. 4. Whatever the result, Britain will likely flourish - and that is far more in our hands than some of those arguing sometimes seem to allow. The type of Britain it will be may be different depending on the result but it's not a choice between Doom and Paradise. 5. Jonathan's post deserves some sort of prize.
Have a good day all.
I'm sorry. This kind of sensible post is utterly unacceptable.
Cyclefree is now banned.
Irony is so difficult on the internet. (I hope.....)
Morning all. Trying to catch up on a week's worth of threads after a busy few days of work - not happening, there's about 20k comments in the past week, half of which seem to be on the increasingly hyperbolic EU debate. Ho Hum, budget time!
England's World t20 campaign starts in two hours time. Mike Atherton agrees with me that England have a chance of winning. I backed them a few weeks ago.
The Meeksian position is that the British people have already been trusted with their own destiny and up to this point they have decided that it was wiser to pool sovereignty with other countries in an increasingly-interconnected world than to go it alone in a spurious splendid isolation that did not enhance the choices available to the British people in practice or enrich them.
The Meeksian position is that with the EU flagging at present, it was entirely appropriate to offer a referendum at this point to determine whether that remained the case. But that required a coherent alternative to be put forward and it hasn't been.
There's a danger of "Meeksian" passing into common usage, but I'm not sure you'd be too pleased with the connotations it's likely to attract based on the logic above.
I've read this lots of times and I still can't work out why you are arguing this point rather than the simple benefits of being within the EU.
You say that it was appropriate to offer a referendum. Fair enough. Also that a "coherent alternative" be put forward. Otherwise, if I understand you correctly, the referendum is so meaningless it shouldn't even really be taken seriously, and no sensible person (vilifications from your original post deleted from quote above) should do other than vote remain.
I am sure you aren't seriously denying that coherent alternatives have been put forward by anyone, anywhere, either within or without the various campaign groups. A number have been put forward on the endless bad-tempered threads of the last few days. Applying to become a member of the EEA is coherent. Deciding to "go it alone" as a non-EEA country is also coherent. They aren't mutually compatible, but each is coherent.
So what you must be arguing is that the referendum isn't offering a choice between two clearly defined alternatives. This is true, but it's a flaw deliberately built into the referendum structure by Cameron in order to allow the line of argument you are making. There is no constitutional framework whereby a Leave campaign is empowered to offer a prospectus that will be implemented. The government is the only body that can do that, and refuses to articulate a single "coherent alternative".
What follows from this is that the referendum is intentionally flawed to delegitimise the possibility of a genuine choice. If you hold the view that a referendum is appropriate, would you not think it appropriate to argue for the referendum to be restructured and then held properly, rather than urge everyone to vote Remain?
If Osborne achieves his target reduction in the deficit it means tax increases and benefit cuts which make him unpopular with the electorate - so he will not be chosen as Cameron's successor
If Osborne chickens out of meeting his deficit targets then he will upset Conservative MPs - so he will not be chosen as Cameron's successor
Well, I would also have been angry, if this had happened to me:
The employees who kept the data systems humming in the vast Walt Disney fantasy fief did not suspect trouble when they were suddenly summoned to meetings with their boss.
While families rode the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train and searched for Nemo on clamobiles in the theme parks, these workers monitored computers in industrial buildings nearby, making sure millions of Walt Disney World ticket sales, store purchases and hotel reservations went through without a hitch. Some were performing so well that they thought they had been called in for bonuses.
Instead, about 250 Disney employees were told in late October that they would be laid off. Many of their jobs were transferred to immigrants on temporary visas for highly skilled technical workers, who were brought in by an outsourcing firm based in India. Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train their replacements to do the jobs they had lost.
“I just couldn’t believe they could fly people in to sit at our desks and take over our jobs exactly,” said one former worker, an American in his 40s who remains unemployed since his last day at Disney on Jan. 30. “It was so humiliating to train somebody else to take over your job. I still can’t grasp it.”
I was an immigrant worker at an american amusement park (one of the biggest, not Disney) in 1998... Not new. But the overseas workers were, like me, students from Europe, primarily UK, mixed in with students from universities in surrounding states. I've heard this has changed more recently, with a significant increase of the number of overseas, as the wages have stayed pegged to a stalled minimum wage.
Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.
People with entrepreneurial minds will always find a way. Unskilled workers have been slaughtered by EU migration, I'm amazed labour supporters don't care
You are assuming that a Brexit vote will end large-scale immigration from the EU and also that any uptick in pay packages among the unskilled will make up for higher prices. Those without jobs, of course, will just be hit by the high prices.
Those without jobs will have less competition from people who have an inbuilt advantage over them
Labour voters who are pro EU are trade unionists who undercut their workers
Pensioners aren't competing with anyone.
Doesn't it depend on the trade union? A lot of union members will work for companies that export to the EU. Others will worry that a government elected by a minority of voters will have the ability to significantly restrict employee rights and benefits once we are out of the EU.
I see Huw Edwards is chairing the Budget 2016 on BBC2. I bet Andrew Neil is absolutely steaming.
Andrew Neil’s strengths will be utilised in other areas, he’s much better at skewering politicians on a one to one basis and don’t think he’ll begrudge the excellant Huw Edwards getting the top spot for the budget.
Hopefully this spells the end of Dimblebore as the BBC’s anchor for major political events.
David Dimbleby hasn't done Budget Day for many years. I'm sure he'll still be around - presenting the EUref results, I understand.
Morning all. Trying to catch up on a week's worth of threads after a busy few days of work - not happening, there's about 20k comments in the past week, half of which seem to be on the increasingly hyperbolic EU debate. Ho Hum, budget time!
England's World t20 campaign starts in two hours time. Mike Atherton agrees with me that England have a chance of winning. I backed them a few weeks ago.
After hosts and favourites India messed up quite spectacularly in their first match, anyone could win it now.
You'd better not be going anywhere near Old Trafford tomorrow night!
If Osborne achieves his target reduction in the deficit it means tax increases and benefit cuts which make him unpopular with the electorate - so he will not be chosen as Cameron's successor
If Osborne chickens out of meeting his deficit targets then he will upset Conservative MPs - so he will not be chosen as Cameron's successor
Morning all. Trying to catch up on a week's worth of threads after a busy few days of work - not happening, there's about 20k comments in the past week, half of which seem to be on the increasingly hyperbolic EU debate. Ho Hum, budget time!
England's World t20 campaign starts in two hours time. Mike Atherton agrees with me that England have a chance of winning. I backed them a few weeks ago.
After hosts and favourites India messed up quite spectacularly in their first match, anyone could win it now.
You'd better not be going anywhere near Old Trafford tomorrow night!
I have tickets, however I have a trapped nerve in my leg, so my attendance is most unlikely.
I see Huw Edwards is chairing the Budget 2016 on BBC2. I bet Andrew Neil is absolutely steaming.
Andrew Neil’s strengths will be utilised in other areas, he’s much better at skewering politicians on a one to one basis and don’t think he’ll begrudge the excellant Huw Edwards getting the top spot for the budget.
Hopefully this spells the end of Dimblebore as the BBC’s anchor for major political events.
David Dimbleby hasn't done Budget Day for many years. I'm sure he'll still be around - presenting the EUref results, I understand.
Absurd, we are not suffering from an air pollution crisis at all, air emissions are fractions of what they used to be. Literally, about 5 to 10% on what it used to be a few decades ago. There is no failure to deal with it at all. This is just utter ignorance.
The breaches of air quality arent because things are getting worse, the the levels of particulates that are allowed before a breach are repeatedly lowered. I ahve a detailed dataset somewhere i'll hunt it out.
Morning all. Trying to catch up on a week's worth of threads after a busy few days of work - not happening, there's about 20k comments in the past week, half of which seem to be on the increasingly hyperbolic EU debate. Ho Hum, budget time!
England's World t20 campaign starts in two hours time. Mike Atherton agrees with me that England have a chance of winning. I backed them a few weeks ago.
After hosts and favourites India messed up quite spectacularly in their first match, anyone could win it now.
You'd better not be going anywhere near Old Trafford tomorrow night!
I have tickets, however I have a trapped nerve in my leg, so my attendance is most unlikely.
Get well soon, and may the best team from Liverpool win!
The GOP need to find a Bush for the Internet generation.
George WWW Bush?
This, particularly in the context of OGH's excellent "Perhaps worth recalling that the last time that the Republicans won the White House without a Nixon or Bush on the ticket was 1928" factoid, is IMHO one of PB's all-time best posts.
If Osborne achieves his target reduction in the deficit it means tax increases and benefit cuts which make him unpopular with the electorate - so he will not be chosen as Cameron's successor
If Osborne chickens out of meeting his deficit targets then he will upset Conservative MPs - so he will not be chosen as Cameron's successor
Conservative MPs will understand the deficit targets were invented solely to trap Labour.
Well, I would also have been angry, if this had happened to me:
The employees who kept the data systems humming in the vast Walt Disney fantasy fief did not suspect trouble when they were suddenly summoned to meetings with their boss.
While families rode the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train and searched for Nemo on clamobiles in the theme parks, these workers monitored computers in industrial buildings nearby, making sure millions of Walt Disney World ticket sales, store purchases and hotel reservations went through without a hitch. Some were performing so well that they thought they had been called in for bonuses.
Instead, about 250 Disney employees were told in late October that they would be laid off. Many of their jobs were transferred to immigrants on temporary visas for highly skilled technical workers, who were brought in by an outsourcing firm based in India. Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train their replacements to do the jobs they had lost.
“I just couldn’t believe they could fly people in to sit at our desks and take over our jobs exactly,” said one former worker, an American in his 40s who remains unemployed since his last day at Disney on Jan. 30. “It was so humiliating to train somebody else to take over your job. I still can’t grasp it.”
I was an immigrant worker at an american amusement park (one of the biggest, not Disney) in 1998... Not new. But the overseas workers were, like me, students from Europe, primarily UK, mixed in with students from universities in surrounding states. I've heard this has changed more recently, with a significant increase of the number of overseas, as the wages have stayed pegged to a stalled minimum wage.
Thinking about it, it seems to me that such operations/transfers lead to a transfer of income from labour to capital (rise in Disney profits), and, depending upon overseas transfers by the immigrant workers, probably a fall in US GDP per capita [the pre-immigration population cohort]. Of course, an alternative might have been transfer of the jobs overseas [thinks of all those frustrating phone-calls to/from India and the Phillipines ...).
Meeksian? On balance it's better than Meeksite or Meeksist, I think. On your first point, I'm not a great fan of the EU and was open-minded about voting Leave for quite some time. That time is now past but I'm never going to be an enthusiastic campaigner for the EU.
Structurally, the referendum can only be a binary Leave/Remain choice (or names to that effect). Those wishing to leave must therefore construct their argument accordingly. It is the choice of the Leave campaign as to how it argues its case.
Leave has been so incoherent as to have failed even to coalesce and will not do so for at least another month. That is not the fault of the government (and is, in truth, an indication of the problems that the nation would face if it decides to leave). And the problem with the alternatives put forward is not that there aren't any coherent alternatives, it is that we have a superabundance of them. Boris Johnson alone has managed four in the last three weeks. If we vote leave, we'll be having a national game of spin the bottle to choose which one gets selected. That's not particularly likely to produce one that the public will get behind or be contented with: the reverse.
But it's a bit rich blaming the Remain camp for the fact that the Leave camp is so spectacularly crap.
Leaving the EU might disadvantage people who like to let on they pay a high rate of tax while easing the pressure on the poorest paid workers
Oh well
I doubt it. It is more likely to hurt the people employed in companies that do a lot of business in the EU, while putting prices up for everyone - something that will affect the lower paid a lot more than the higher paid.
People with entrepreneurial minds will always find a way. Unskilled workers have been slaughtered by EU migration, I'm amazed labour supporters don't care
You are assuming that a Brexit vote will end large-scale immigration from the EU and also that any uptick in pay packages among the unskilled will make up for higher prices. Those without jobs, of course, will just be hit by the high prices.
Those without jobs will have less competition from people who have an inbuilt advantage over them
Labour voters who are pro EU are trade unionists who undercut their workers
Pensioners aren't competing with anyone.
Doesn't it depend on the trade union? A lot of union members will work for companies that export to the EU. Others will worry that a government elected by a minority of voters will have the ability to significantly restrict employee rights and benefits once we are out of the EU.
Most trade Unionists are in the public sector, I don't think exports is an issue for them.
Meeksian? On balance it's better than Meeksite or Meeksist, I think. On your first point, I'm not a great fan of the EU and was open-minded about voting Leave for quite some time. That time is now past but I'm never going to be an enthusiastic campaigner for the EU.
Structurally, the referendum can only be a binary Leave/Remain choice (or names to that effect). Those wishing to leave must therefore construct their argument accordingly. It is the choice of the Leave campaign as to how it argues its case.
Leave has been so incoherent as to have failed even to coalesce and will not do so for at least another month. That is not the fault of the government (and is, in truth, an indication of the problems that the nation would face if it decides to leave). And the problem with the alternatives put forward is not that there aren't any coherent alternatives, it is that we have a superabundance of them. Boris Johnson alone has managed four in the last three weeks. If we vote leave, we'll be having a national game of spin the bottle to choose which one gets selected. That's not particularly likely to produce one that the public will get behind or be contented with: the reverse.
But it's a bit rich blaming the Remain camp for the fact that the Leave camp is so spectacularly crap.
Well, I would also have been angry, if this had happened to me:
The employees who kept the data systems humming in the vast Walt Disney fantasy fief did not suspect trouble when they were suddenly summoned to meetings with their boss.
While families rode the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train and searched for Nemo on clamobiles in the theme parks, these workers monitored computers in industrial buildings nearby, making sure millions of Walt Disney World ticket sales, store purchases and hotel reservations went through without a hitch. Some were performing so well that they thought they had been called in for bonuses.
Instead, about 250 Disney employees were told in late October that they would be laid off. Many of their jobs were transferred to immigrants on temporary visas for highly skilled technical workers, who were brought in by an outsourcing firm based in India. Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train their replacements to do the jobs they had lost.
“I just couldn’t believe they could fly people in to sit at our desks and take over our jobs exactly,” said one former worker, an American in his 40s who remains unemployed since his last day at Disney on Jan. 30. “It was so humiliating to train somebody else to take over your job. I still can’t grasp it.”
I was an immigrant worker at an american amusement park (one of the biggest, not Disney) in 1998... Not new. But the overseas workers were, like me, students from Europe, primarily UK, mixed in with students from universities in surrounding states. I've heard this has changed more recently, with a significant increase of the number of overseas, as the wages have stayed pegged to a stalled minimum wage.
Walt Disney are not alone , most American corporations do it including Hi Tech high pay ones. Just read the Register or The Channel and it is full of it.
Comments
Anyway, I have important work* to do. One hopes Osborne doesn't bugger up things for self-employed, morris dancing, fish-engineering writers.
Edited extra bit: *well, trying to do some cycling for the first time in age.
Labour voters who are pro EU are trade unionists who undercut their workers
ECON Committee
.@EP_Economics votes 41 for 5 against to extend by 2 years the 15% minimum VAT level in the EU. #EPlenary vote in April.
In Ohio Trump did really well in counties bordering PA, getting 50% against a popular governor of the state. Bodes well for PA, an election held there to day and he should get 60% or so in western PA. Which in turn bodes well for the general, as does turnout in states across the Rust Belt again last night. Illinois was a good result, even if an impossible take in the general.
Florida looks a definite take for Trump in the general too, big win for Trump against a wall of negative ads directed at him, phenomenal achievement.
13:30: O O Seven
14:10: Roi Des Francs
14:50: Politologue and Avant Tout
15:30: God's Own
16:10: Quantitativeeasing
16:50: Messire Des Obeaux
17:30: First Figaro
Hopefully this spells the end of Dimblebore as the BBC’s anchor for major political events.
The Dave deal is not set in aspic there will be change foisted upon us if we remain. Likewise in leave there will be negotiations that aren't win win.
But your choice is do you think you can handle your problems better yourself or do you want somebody else to do it for you.
Plus productivity in the Uk is well below our major competitors like the USA, Germany and France.
Increased wealth of the nation requires increased productivity.
Expect to hear phrase Business Tax Roadmap a few times today to try and shore up business confidence by making landscape more predictable
The employees who kept the data systems humming in the vast Walt Disney fantasy fief did not suspect trouble when they were suddenly summoned to meetings with their boss.
While families rode the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train and searched for Nemo on clamobiles in the theme parks, these workers monitored computers in industrial buildings nearby, making sure millions of Walt Disney World ticket sales, store purchases and hotel reservations went through without a hitch. Some were performing so well that they thought they had been called in for bonuses.
Instead, about 250 Disney employees were told in late October that they would be laid off. Many of their jobs were transferred to immigrants on temporary visas for highly skilled technical workers, who were brought in by an outsourcing firm based in India. Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train their replacements to do the jobs they had lost.
“I just couldn’t believe they could fly people in to sit at our desks and take over our jobs exactly,” said one former worker, an American in his 40s who remains unemployed since his last day at Disney on Jan. 30. “It was so humiliating to train somebody else to take over your job. I still can’t grasp it.”
Globalisation hurts when it's like this ...
http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/immigration-2/disney-workers-fired-but-first-had-to-train-their-foreign-replacements
I've read this lots of times and I still can't work out why you are arguing this point rather than the simple benefits of being within the EU.
You say that it was appropriate to offer a referendum. Fair enough. Also that a "coherent alternative" be put forward. Otherwise, if I understand you correctly, the referendum is so meaningless it shouldn't even really be taken seriously, and no sensible person (vilifications from your original post deleted from quote above) should do other than vote remain.
I am sure you aren't seriously denying that coherent alternatives have been put forward by anyone, anywhere, either within or without the various campaign groups. A number have been put forward on the endless bad-tempered threads of the last few days. Applying to become a member of the EEA is coherent. Deciding to "go it alone" as a non-EEA country is also coherent. They aren't mutually compatible, but each is coherent.
So what you must be arguing is that the referendum isn't offering a choice between two clearly defined alternatives. This is true, but it's a flaw deliberately built into the referendum structure by Cameron in order to allow the line of argument you are making. There is no constitutional framework whereby a Leave campaign is empowered to offer a prospectus that will be implemented. The government is the only body that can do that, and refuses to articulate a single "coherent alternative".
What follows from this is that the referendum is intentionally flawed to delegitimise the possibility of a genuine choice. If you hold the view that a referendum is appropriate, would you not think it appropriate to argue for the referendum to be restructured and then held properly, rather than urge everyone to vote Remain?
If Osborne chickens out of meeting his deficit targets then he will upset Conservative MPs - so he will not be chosen as Cameron's successor
Doesn't it depend on the trade union? A lot of union members will work for companies that export to the EU. Others will worry that a government elected by a minority of voters will have the ability to significantly restrict employee rights and benefits once we are out of the EU.
You'd better not be going anywhere near Old Trafford tomorrow night!
That's a good thing, I'm very reluctant to vote for him - just not the right fit.
Families lose out as taxman accused of snatching money on charity donations 'from mum and dad'
The taxman has been accused of snatching money from charities as Gift Aid is denied in donations from more than one person
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12195361/Charities-lose-thousands-to-the-taxman-after-families-write-from-mum-and-dad-in-online-donations.html
I'm choosing SkyNews
The breaches of air quality arent because things are getting worse, the the levels of particulates that are allowed before a breach are repeatedly lowered. I ahve a detailed dataset somewhere i'll hunt it out.
He's still wasting his questions on green crap though, and Dave pulls him up for not mentioning the latest good employment stats.
Structurally, the referendum can only be a binary Leave/Remain choice (or names to that effect). Those wishing to leave must therefore construct their argument accordingly. It is the choice of the Leave campaign as to how it argues its case.
Leave has been so incoherent as to have failed even to coalesce and will not do so for at least another month. That is not the fault of the government (and is, in truth, an indication of the problems that the nation would face if it decides to leave). And the problem with the alternatives put forward is not that there aren't any coherent alternatives, it is that we have a superabundance of them. Boris Johnson alone has managed four in the last three weeks. If we vote leave, we'll be having a national game of spin the bottle to choose which one gets selected. That's not particularly likely to produce one that the public will get behind or be contented with: the reverse.
But it's a bit rich blaming the Remain camp for the fact that the Leave camp is so spectacularly crap.
New Thread New Thread
Utter nonsense by Corbyn