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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sanders shows biggest weakness in the overnight Democratic Nominee debate: his age
After the massive disappointment for the Hillary campaign in Tuesday’s New Hampshire primary it was back to a live TV debate overnight with the 74 year old victor in the primary, socialist Bernie Sanders.
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First!0
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Second!0
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Third, like Hilary the way she's going.0
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I didn't watch the debate, but did follow 538's liveblog. Seemed like a score-draw to me.
Hillary's age is her problem. Not her actual age, but her political age - she's a progressive gone stale. Looks set up to be one of the greatest presidents America never had.
Anyway, I think we need to dispel with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing.0 -
At 68, just five years younger than Sanders, her actual age is an issue as well.Pong said:I didn't watch the debate, but did follow 538's liveblog. Seemed like a score-draw to me.
Hillary's age is her problem. Not her actual age, but her political age - she's a progressive gone stale. Looks set up to be one of the greatest presidents America never had.
Anyway, I think we need to dispel with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing.
On Obama, I think one reason this race is so poor is his dumb choice of veep. Even allowing for Biden balancing the ticket in 2008 ahead of a plausible president like Evan Bayh, his age, gaffes and political naivety all rule him out as a possible president. If Obama had picked a potential successor as running mate in 2012, matters would be very different right now.0 -
FPTMarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest0 -
"a progressive gone stale". Eight years of Obama hasn't helped. "Yes we can!" Well, actually, not so much. The rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer may or may not be accurate, but it feels like that for the past eight years, to much of his - and now her - natural constituency.Pong said:Hillary's age is her problem. Not her actual age, but her political age - she's a progressive gone stale. Looks set up to be one of the greatest presidents America never had.
Anyway, I think we need to dispel with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing.
Would be a certain irony if Obama trashed her chances twice, once when his star was in the ascendent, then once again when it was in decline....
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In Nevada, at least, looking like a retiree might be an advantage.0
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Clinton is likely to win in SC and Nevada surely?
And Super Tuesday looks to go her way.
Then we find out whether she can beat Trump.
For all her faults she does look like the only candidate capable of being POTUS.0 -
Ooh
Beth Rigby
EXCL: Guardian will press Milne to take Voluntary redundancy. On loan to Labour, execs want to finally cut the tie > https://t.co/uEbvW8rI3v0 -
His problem - Yanis, that is - is that he doesn't understand what debt is.dugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest0 -
@paulhutcheon: Karie Murphy tipped for job in Jeremy Corbyn's office @uklabour @scottishlabour https://t.co/ZaoBgOpu460
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From yesterday's podcast, it was interesting that New Hampshire and Iowa were the second and fourth most favourable states for Sanders. Let's see how he does when he gets into states in the thirties and forties on that list. He could be a distant second there - and begin to look seriously over-hyped.foxinsoxuk said:Clinton is likely to win in SC and Nevada surely?
And Super Tuesday looks to go her way.
Then we find out whether she can beat Trump.
For all her faults she does look like the only candidate capable of being POTUS.
foxinsoxuk - "For all her faults she does look like the only candidate capable of being POTUS" Agree with that. Nearer the day, she will undoubtedly get a boost as American women get excited about the prospect of their first woman President. You just wish it would have been someone more inspiring taking on that mantle.-1 -
For every debtor there is a creditor. So?rcs1000 said:
His problem - Yanis, that is - is that he doesn't understand what debt is.dugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest
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Good morning, everyone.0
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Calling it an anti-democratic group is to miss the point. It is a supranational body with a comprehensive set of rules and regulations for its members. And we are a member of it, and are presumed to have agreed to that delegation of powers to it.dugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest
Whereas of course we did nothing of the sort, actively.
Read the negotiating text. Or remind yourself of the Fiscal Compact which Dave refused to sign and which would have forced us to submit our fiscal plans for EU approval. At the time it was seen as the Conservatives being Conservative rather than a refusal to give up sovereignty.
As a reminder, the negotiating text is quite sobering as 98.9% of people in the UK have misunderstood or have not been paying attention or have been in denial over what the EU actually is. I think for this reason Remain will win but if people actually paid attention to what the UK is a part of and how the EU views itself, it would be much closer not to say Leave might edge it.0 -
Sanders look about 90. Worse than Michael Foot in his "prime".0
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So why, in your opinion, are the Leavers so crap at putting their case to the electorate? Could it be that they would sooner stay in the EU than make common cause with lefties?TOPPING said:
Calling it an anti-democratic group is to miss the point. It is a supranational body with a comprehensive set of rules and regulations for its members. And we are a member of it, and are presumed to have agreed to that delegation of powers to it.dugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest
Whereas of course we did nothing of the sort, actively.
Read the negotiating text. Or remind yourself of the Fiscal Compact which Dave refused to sign and which would have forced us to submit our fiscal plans for EU approval. At the time it was seen as the Conservatives being Conservative rather than a refusal to give up sovereignty.
As a reminder, the negotiating text is quite sobering as 98.9% of people in the UK have misunderstood or have not been paying attention or have been in denial over what the EU actually is. I think for this reason Remain will win but if people actually paid attention to what the UK is a part of and how the EU views itself, it would be much closer not to say Leave might edge it.
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But not actually going to force the issue - if he refuses will they sack someone else instead?Plato_Says said:Ooh
Beth Rigby
EXCL: Guardian will press Milne to take Voluntary redundancy. On loan to Labour, execs want to finally cut the tie > https://t.co/uEbvW8rI3v
And can Labour afford him if they had to pay him?
As an aside, I assume that the arrangement is being disclosed as a donation in kind by the Guardian?0 -
Mr. Royale, Enrico Dandolo was older than that when he conquered Byzantium.
And he was blind.0 -
Either they worry that he's damaging their brand or theyre paying him far too much money for doing nothing.Plato_Says said:Ooh
Beth Rigby
EXCL: Guardian will press Milne to take Voluntary redundancy. On loan to Labour, execs want to finally cut the tie > https://t.co/uEbvW8rI3v0 -
It might be a loan.Charles said:
But not actually going to force the issue - if he refuses will they sack someone else instead?Plato_Says said:Ooh
Beth Rigby
EXCL: Guardian will press Milne to take Voluntary redundancy. On loan to Labour, execs want to finally cut the tie > https://t.co/uEbvW8rI3v
And can Labour afford him if they had to pay him?
As an aside, I assume that the arrangement is being disclosed as a donation in kind by the Guardian?
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And they wonder why they are losing ca. £40m per year on the newspaper. Just sack him and be done with it.Plato_Says said:Ooh
Beth Rigby
EXCL: Guardian will press Milne to take Voluntary redundancy. On loan to Labour, execs want to finally cut the tie > https://t.co/uEbvW8rI3v0 -
Perhaps, but he ain't running for POTUS is he?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Royale, Enrico Dandolo was older than that when he conquered Byzantium.
And he was blind.0 -
There's another tweet saying the Guardian don't want him back now he's been officially linked to a Party. Sure Russia Today or Press TV would take him.Charles said:
But not actually going to force the issue - if he refuses will they sack someone else instead?Plato_Says said:Ooh
Beth Rigby
EXCL: Guardian will press Milne to take Voluntary redundancy. On loan to Labour, execs want to finally cut the tie > https://t.co/uEbvW8rI3v
And can Labour afford him if they had to pay him?
As an aside, I assume that the arrangement is being disclosed as a donation in kind by the Guardian?0 -
Mr. Royale, no, but then, he's not an American citizen. And has been dead for about 800 years.0
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Trump is actually older than Hillary so she looks comparatively youthful against him and Sanders. As for Bloomberg most polls have him taking almost equally from Republicans and Democrats so I doubt he makes a great difference0
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Because who on earth wants to read EU texts? In my various posts about it I have urged Leavers to stress the sovereignty element rather than focus on one issue which might or might not float peoples' boats (eg. immigration).Innocent_Abroad said:
So why, in your opinion, are the Leavers so crap at putting their case to the electorate?TOPPING said:
Calling it an anti-democratic group is to miss the point. It is a supranational body with a comprehensive set of rules and regulations for its members. And we are a member of it, and are presumed to have agreed to that delegation of powers to it.dugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest
Whereas of course we did nothing of the sort, actively.
Read the negotiating text. Or remind yourself of the Fiscal Compact which Dave refused to sign and which would have forced us to submit our fiscal plans for EU approval. At the time it was seen as the Conservatives being Conservative rather than a refusal to give up sovereignty.
As a reminder, the negotiating text is quite sobering as 98.9% of people in the UK have misunderstood or have not been paying attention or have been in denial over what the EU actually is. I think for this reason Remain will win but if people actually paid attention to what the UK is a part of and how the EU views itself, it would be much closer not to say Leave might edge it.
Just as with the euro (and the fiscal compact), it is the ability of the UK to make decisions without recourse to or approval from that supranational body. But again, even the concept of sovereignty is fairly dry, not to say nebulous (we still troop the colour, after all, so surely all is well), so people focus on EU legislation about the shape of bananas and are rightly dismissed.0 -
If only there were some sort of campaigning organisation to explain this, instead of banging on about bloody migrants on benefits all the time.TOPPING said:
Calling it an anti-democratic group is to miss the point. It is a supranational body with a comprehensive set of rules and regulations for its members. And we are a member of it, and are presumed to have agreed to that delegation of powers to it.dugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest
Whereas of course we did nothing of the sort, actively.
Read the negotiating text. Or remind yourself of the Fiscal Compact which Dave refused to sign and which would have forced us to submit our fiscal plans for EU approval. At the time it was seen as the Conservatives being Conservative rather than a refusal to give up sovereignty.
As a reminder, the negotiating text is quite sobering as 98.9% of people in the UK have misunderstood or have not been paying attention or have been in denial over what the EU actually is. I think for this reason Remain will win but if people actually paid attention to what the UK is a part of and how the EU views itself, it would be much closer not to say Leave might edge it.0 -
Apparently he's worked there for 32 yrs.MaxPB said:
And they wonder why they are losing ca. £40m per year on the newspaper. Just sack him and be done with it.Plato_Says said:Ooh
Beth Rigby
EXCL: Guardian will press Milne to take Voluntary redundancy. On loan to Labour, execs want to finally cut the tie > https://t.co/uEbvW8rI3v0 -
Trump IS older, but he LOOKS younger, he has more energy and fire than she has had in years.HYUFD said:Trump is actually older than Hillary so she looks comparatively youthful against him and Sanders. As for Bloomberg most polls have him taking almost equally from Republicans and Democrats so I doubt he makes a great difference
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So he is looking at a £100k+ pay off. No wonder why he is reluctant to fully resign and put his real money where his mouth is and is trying to weasel his way into a pay off.Plato_Says said:Apparently he's worked there for 32 yrs.
MaxPB said:
And they wonder why they are losing ca. £40m per year on the newspaper. Just sack him and be done with it.Plato_Says said:Ooh
Beth Rigby
EXCL: Guardian will press Milne to take Voluntary redundancy. On loan to Labour, execs want to finally cut the tie > https://t.co/uEbvW8rI3v
Also, The Guardian had a negative cash flow of £50.4m last year, apparently this year is going to be worse and they have a whole load of redundancy payments coming next year, around 200 people might be told to do one.0 -
I thought Trump looks about 60, Bernie more like 80.
Hillary about 70. With that too much make up look.Indigo said:
Trump IS older, but he LOOKS younger, he has more energy and fire than she has had in years.HYUFD said:Trump is actually older than Hillary so she looks comparatively youthful against him and Sanders. As for Bloomberg most polls have him taking almost equally from Republicans and Democrats so I doubt he makes a great difference
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Such an organisation would be like JC's Labour Party: it would strengthen its support where it was strong already (for the Leavers, Middle England) but make no impact where it was weak (London, the Celtic nations).DecrepitJohnL said:
If only there were some sort of campaigning organisation to explain this, instead of banging on about bloody migrants on benefits all the time.TOPPING said:
Calling it an anti-democratic group is to miss the point. It is a supranational body with a comprehensive set of rules and regulations for its members. And we are a member of it, and are presumed to have agreed to that delegation of powers to it.dugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest
Whereas of course we did nothing of the sort, actively.
Read the negotiating text. Or remind yourself of the Fiscal Compact which Dave refused to sign and which would have forced us to submit our fiscal plans for EU approval. At the time it was seen as the Conservatives being Conservative rather than a refusal to give up sovereignty.
As a reminder, the negotiating text is quite sobering as 98.9% of people in the UK have misunderstood or have not been paying attention or have been in denial over what the EU actually is. I think for this reason Remain will win but if people actually paid attention to what the UK is a part of and how the EU views itself, it would be much closer not to say Leave might edge it.
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out of Trump and Hilary, Hilary is the one with too much make-up?Plato_Says said:I thought Trump looks about 60, Bernie more like 80.
Hillary about 70. With that too much make up look.Indigo said:
Trump IS older, but he LOOKS younger, he has more energy and fire than she has had in years.HYUFD said:Trump is actually older than Hillary so she looks comparatively youthful against him and Sanders. As for Bloomberg most polls have him taking almost equally from Republicans and Democrats so I doubt he makes a great difference
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It's a calculated risk imo. Yes, talking about sovereignty might have some mileage in it, but its dry as dust, and doesn't grab most people by the throat. When in 6-8 weeks time that estimate of 1.3m people per year converging on German turns out to be a large underestimate, and when the migrant flow is massively front loaded with people desperate to get into German or Sweden (or the UK) before the borders starting being slammed shut. When people uprooting fences and scuffling with border forces in on the news every night, banging on about immigration while not everyone's cup of tea might be vindicated as a strategy. Its another Overton Window issue, look at how much the public view has moved in the last three years, from people screaming racists if you spoke about it, to people looking incredulously at politicians if they try and gloss over it.DecrepitJohnL said:
If only there were some sort of campaigning organisation to explain this, instead of banging on about bloody migrants on benefits all the time.TOPPING said:
Calling it an anti-democratic group is to miss the point. It is a supranational body with a comprehensive set of rules and regulations for its members. And we are a member of it, and are presumed to have agreed to that delegation of powers to it.dugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest
Whereas of course we did nothing of the sort, actively.
Read the negotiating text. Or remind yourself of the Fiscal Compact which Dave refused to sign and which would have forced us to submit our fiscal plans for EU approval. At the time it was seen as the Conservatives being Conservative rather than a refusal to give up sovereignty.
As a reminder, the negotiating text is quite sobering as 98.9% of people in the UK have misunderstood or have not been paying attention or have been in denial over what the EU actually is. I think for this reason Remain will win but if people actually paid attention to what the UK is a part of and how the EU views itself, it would be much closer not to say Leave might edge it.0 -
I think I might share his problemrcs1000 said:
His problem - Yanis, that is - is that he doesn't understand what debt is.dugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest0 -
With his politician hat on, he doesn't need to understand it, in fact that would be a disadvantage, he needs to suggest that he has the same understanding of it as the voters. You won't win many votes telling the voters that they don't understand, and they have got it all wrong.rcs1000 said:
His problem - Yanis, that is - is that he doesn't understand what debt is.dugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest0 -
I think playing the immigrant card might, perish the thought, force to the surface the inherent tolerance and good nature of us Brits and hence have the opposite effect to that intended. Plus there will be plenty of children and sob stories amongst the immigrants and that might play either way.Indigo said:
It's a calculated risk imo. Yes, talking about sovereignty might have some mileage in it, but its dry as dust, and doesn't grab most people by the throat. When in 6-8 weeks time that estimate of 1.3m people converging on German turns out to be a large underestimate, and when the migrant flow is massively front loaded with people desperate to get into German or Sweden (or the UK) before the borders starting being slammed shut. When people uprooting fences and scuffling with border forces in on the news every night, banging on about immigration while not everyone's cup of tea might be vindicated as a strategy. Its another Overton Window issue, look at how much the public view has moved in the last three years, from people screaming racists if you spoke about it, to people looking incredulously at politicians if they try and gloss over it.DecrepitJohnL said:
If only there were some sort of campaigning organisation to explain this, instead of banging on about bloody migrants on benefits all the time.TOPPING said:
Calling it an anti-democratic group is to miss the point. It is a supranational body with adugarbandier said:FPT
MarqueeMark said:
Why would anybody listen to an "erratic Marxist"? At least Corbyn isn't erratic.dugarbandier said:
Well, OK, apart from on defence..
I thought some of what he says about anti-democratic europe might be of interest
As a reminder, toser not to say Leave might edge it.
If the immigrant card is going to be played then, again, it must be tied to sovereignty ("The UK is not allowed by the EU to determine who is or is not allowed in to our country."). But immigration has too much baggage imo for it to be a potent weapon for either side and that message will be lost. I mean did anyone actually ask (apart from NF and he is to monotonic to be listened to these days) why Dave's immigration pledge could not have been honoured? It got diverted into the issue of immigration per se.0 -
Yes but he does not think before he speaks unlike her, both he and Sanders are excellent populist rabble rousers but at the end of the day most Americans still want a president not a talk show hostIndigo said:
Trump IS older, but he LOOKS younger, he has more energy and fire than she has had in years.HYUFD said:Trump is actually older than Hillary so she looks comparatively youthful against him and Sanders. As for Bloomberg most polls have him taking almost equally from Republicans and Democrats so I doubt he makes a great difference
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Meanwhile, one fears innumerate ideology might come into the gender pay gap debate:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35553573
"Carolyn Fairbairn, CBI director-general, said that league tables should not be used to "name and shame" firms, because data could only give a partial picture - factors such as the mix of part-time and full-time workers, as well as sectoral differences, needed to be taken into account."
Also worth recalling women often take years out due to wanting to raise a family. It's not legitimate to expect that to have zero impact on a career.
[Of course, men and women doing the same job should be paid the same, but like must be compared with like. A general comparison of pay is worthless because the populations will do different jobs and, often, men are breadwinners who don't take time out for family, whereas women are more likely to do so].0 -
It's surprising how three of the front runners for the presidency are aiming to hold that post in their 70s. Two more mooted rescue candidates, Joe Biden and Michael Bloomberg, are also in their 70s.
For that matter, on this side of the Atlantic Jeremy Corbyn is in his late 60s and while he has many detractors none mention his age.
Is the cult of youth officially over?0 -
Apart from McMao musing that Jezza might have a stroke...AlastairMeeks said:
It's surprising how three of the front runners for the presidency are aiming to hold that post in their 70s. Two more mooted rescue candidates, Joe Biden and Michael Bloomberg, are also in their 70s.
For that matter, on this side of the Atlantic Jeremy Corbyn is in his late 60s and while he has many detractors none mention his age.
Is the cult of youth officially over?0 -
Mr. Meeks, at the Battle of Corupedium, where Seleucus defeated Lysimachus, both men were in their 70s. But you're right that it's a bit unusual in modern politics.
I think you exaggerate the death of the cult of youth. Corbyn won because Labour MPs were damned fools. If they'd understood their own leadership election rules it would've been Cooper, Burnham or Kendall. America's kicking back against the Establishment, not the Youth.0 -
Well that does point out the next thing I was going to note, which is that vice-presidential nominations are going to be of increased importance this time, it seems. The likelihood of the vice-president being pressed into action is correspondingly higher, so there's no space for passengers.Plato_Says said:Apart from McMao musing that Jezza might have a stroke...
AlastairMeeks said:It's surprising how three of the front runners for the presidency are aiming to hold that post in their 70s. Two more mooted rescue candidates, Joe Biden and Michael Bloomberg, are also in their 70s.
For that matter, on this side of the Atlantic Jeremy Corbyn is in his late 60s and while he has many detractors none mention his age.
Is the cult of youth officially over?0 -
It was Labour members who elected Corbyn and it is the Republican and Democratic base who are voting for Trump and Sanders not CongressmenMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, at the Battle of Corupedium, where Seleucus defeated Lysimachus, both men were in their 70s. But you're right that it's a bit unusual in modern politics.
I think you exaggerate the death of the cult of youth. Corbyn won because Labour MPs were damned fools. If they'd understood their own leadership election rules it would've been Cooper, Burnham or Kendall. America's kicking back against the Establishment, not the Youth.0 -
Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/0 -
Mr. HYUFD, Corbyn's win was about his politics, his age was neither asset nor weakness.0
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Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
You've also basically posted a bunch of "Britain is a shit country and too small to survive alone". I'm not sure that is going to convince as many people as you think it will.0 -
MD, In some ways I think that this is a good thing.Morris_Dancer said:America's kicking back against the Establishment, not the Youth.
The 'establishment' in both the US and European spheres has got way too complacent in recent years imo.
The modern equivalent of 'the occasional assassination' pour encourager les autres.
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@Herald_Editor: If Scotland needs UK help to pay for the devo deal how could it possibly afford separation? Lord McCluskey in Agenda https://t.co/0krqpJEfhe0
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..but you think keeping the Labour vote onside also equates to supporting Corbyn,NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
jeeez0 -
Richardo Bald
I hope all 56 genders are included. https://t.co/9Q5RDPT5sVMorris_Dancer said:Meanwhile, one fears innumerate ideology might come into the gender pay gap debate:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35553573
"Carolyn Fairbairn, CBI director-general, said that league tables should not be used to "name and shame" firms, because data could only give a partial picture - factors such as the mix of part-time and full-time workers, as well as sectoral differences, needed to be taken into account."
Also worth recalling women often take years out due to wanting to raise a family. It's not legitimate to expect that to have zero impact on a career.
[Of course, men and women doing the same job should be paid the same, but like must be compared with like. A general comparison of pay is worthless because the populations will do different jobs and, often, men are breadwinners who don't take time out for family, whereas women are more likely to do so].0 -
Thanks Nick - v interesting. A boilerplate Remain argument and that is not said as a criticism.NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
As you are a fan there is no reason for you to mention it but as we have been discussing on here - a power bloc doesn't mean perforce delegating sovereign decisions to a supranational government. The EU differs from the other associations you name because it seeks, by its own articles, to become more than just a set of trading or common interest agreements and wants political and economic union, with some small degree of tolerance for those who don't share those aims (ie us).
Now if that is what the good people of Broxtowe want, then great, but you are being just a tiny bit disingenuous not to describe the differences between the EU and the examples you cite.
Plus!!! "taking a break from politics"??!! But...but you have been regularly contributing to PB....!0 -
Britain is too small to prosper alone - we might survive by managing decline - some would say we've been doing that for over a century now - but if you think that makes us "shit" you need to take a look at yourself. A long look.MaxPB said:
Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
You've also basically posted a bunch of "Britain is a shit country and too small to survive alone". I'm not sure that is going to convince as many people as you think it will.
Thanks to Nick for the article, very good - lacking only a Labour view of TTIP and its relation to the EU, alas.
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Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?
Yes, almost an archetype complete with the required heavy dose of pomposity and self-importance0 -
Perhaps but the point remains his win was a symptom of activist and party base support whatever the view of elected representativesMorris_Dancer said:Mr. HYUFD, Corbyn's win was about his politics, his age was neither asset nor weakness.
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You have to ask where on earth do UKIP find these people.... It's bad enough complaining about someone else spending time helping a food bank far worse to do it when one of your General Election policies was to help them out...AlastairMeeks said:0 -
Incidentally, my Green opponent in 2015 has now joined Labour. His complaint was that Labour wasn't sufficiently left-wing, rather than not sufficiently environmental, and we now meet his rather exacting standards on that front. I expect several other local Greens to follow, and they were half the difference from the Tories in 2015 (and more than 100% of it in 2010), so it's useful.0
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I've said on here before the bloke is a buffoon, there is a feeling from many in Ukip that he got the job as a token gay man.eek said:
You have to ask where on earth do UKIP find these people.... It's bad enough complaining about someone else spending time helping a food bank far worse to do it when one of your General Election policies was to help them out...AlastairMeeks said:0 -
If Britain is too small alone then so is every country in the world except the US, China, Germany and Japan - and possibly Russia, India and Brazil.Innocent_Abroad said:
Britain is too small to prosper alone - we might survive by managing decline - some would say we've been doing that for over a century now - but if you think that makes us "shit" you need to take a look at yourself. A long look.MaxPB said:
Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
You've also basically posted a bunch of "Britain is a shit country and too small to survive alone". I'm not sure that is going to convince as many people as you think it will.
Thanks to Nick for the article, very good - lacking only a Labour view of TTIP and its relation to the EU, alas.
Good luck with that as an argument.
0 -
Mr Dancer I think it has come to be an asset as respect for an older person may be a factor in why Dave is reluctant to go for the throat.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. HYUFD, Corbyn's win was about his politics, his age was neither asset nor weakness.
0 -
Might be a place for him on Top Gear?blackburn63 said:
I've said on here before the bloke is a buffoon, there is a feeling from many in Ukip that he got the job as a token gay man.eek said:
You have to ask where on earth do UKIP find these people.... It's bad enough complaining about someone else spending time helping a food bank far worse to do it when one of your General Election policies was to help them out...AlastairMeeks said:0 -
Fair point, but there are other things about the EU that I don't much like, and my point is that the default position is to belong to your local bloc, even if there are things about it that you're not keen on - you have to feel strongly that it's really vile for it to be preferable to be on your own. That applies to my reservations that it's blindly free-market, and yours that it's drifting towards political union; it also applies to other objections that neither of us have but others do, like free movement of people. Incidentally, the others will IMO also drift in the direction of political union over the next decades - it's an evident objective in ASEAN and the African Union and arguably the South American counterpart, though traditional rivalries make it hugely difficult. Not at all evident in NAFTA, but there one country is basically running most of the show anyway.TOPPING said:
Thanks Nick - v interesting. A boilerplate Remain argument and that is not said as a criticism.NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
As you are a fan there is no reason for you to mention it but as we have been discussing on here - a power bloc doesn't mean perforce delegating sovereign decisions to a supranational government. The EU differs from the other associations you name because it seeks, by its own articles, to become more than just a set of trading or common interest agreements and wants political and economic union, with some small degree of tolerance for those who don't share those aims (ie us).
Now if that is what the good people of Broxtowe want, then great, but you are being just a tiny bit disingenuous not to describe the differences between the EU and the examples you cite.
Plus!!! "taking a break from politics"??!! But...but you have been regularly contributing to PB....!
Politics is now more of a hobby than an occupation for me! Come the Euros in 2019, that might change, if we're still members, though I'd be surprised to get a winnable slot.0 -
Cart before horse. I support Corbyn, and starting from there work to keep the Labour vote onside.SquareRoot said:
..but you think keeping the Labour vote onside also equates to supporting Corbyn,NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
jeeez0 -
Amazing how far one can get in politics while being really shit at politics.AlastairMeeks said:0 -
Don't expect too much for the 'Tories for Palmer' clan next time!NickPalmer said:Incidentally, my Green opponent in 2015 has now joined Labour. His complaint was that Labour wasn't sufficiently left-wing, rather than not sufficiently environmental, and we now meet his rather exacting standards on that front. I expect several other local Greens to follow, and they were half the difference from the Tories in 2015 (and more than 100% of it in 2010), so it's useful.
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On topic, 'presumptious and foolish' is not a bad description of both Burnham and Hillary's campaigns. By far her biggest advantage is her field of opponents. Is it so weak as to make her evens? I think not. There are four things that could derail her bid: the FBI, Sanders, the Republican, and Bloomberg.
Of these, Sanders is the least likely but he has revealed weaknesses in her campaign that the GOP will expoloit later, particularly her unwillingness to make a virtue of her Washington experience. Who knows what the FBI will come up with or whether Bloomberg will run if Hillary looks nominee presumpive this time next month. But the combined odds of one of the three stopping her, plus Republicans who either lead i head-to-heads or are within ballpark should add up to more than 50%.0 -
I've never said such a thing. I was pointing down what Nick was saying with his article, and what most Europhiles put across when they say we need to be in the EU.Innocent_Abroad said:
Britain is too small to prosper alone - we might survive by managing decline - some would say we've been doing that for over a century now - but if you think that makes us "shit" you need to take a look at yourself. A long look.MaxPB said:
Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
You've also basically posted a bunch of "Britain is a shit country and too small to survive alone". I'm not sure that is going to convince as many people as you think it will.
Thanks to Nick for the article, very good - lacking only a Labour view of TTIP and its relation to the EU, alas.0 -
'Good luck with that as an argument.'
People have been rehearsing versions of that argument for many hundreds of years.
Before WWI there was supposedly only going to be the British Empire, the US and Russia in future according to the geopolitical 'experts', with all other powers of no importance.
In the 16th century Spain was going to become a universal monarchy
etc etc0 -
Surging number of attacks in Germany's migrant centres sees Christians, women and homosexuals forced to flee from Muslim men
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3442529/Surging-number-attacks-Germany-s-migrant-centres-sees-Christians-women-homosexuals-forced-flee-Muslim-men.html0 -
Apologies (1) if this has been highlighted on a previous thread, and (2) if this extract is too long: Peter Lilley in today's Telegraph
Given that Britain lost its powers in a series of salami slices, I accepted that we could only hope to get powers back bit by bit. I wanted the PM to start that process but knew it would be difficult. It would mean abrogating the doctrine that once a power has been transferred to the EU it can never return to a member state. That doctrine (not “ever closer union”) has driven the process of European integration and is held tenaciously by the European Commission.
"Each new directive, regulation and Court ruling will leach power irrevocably from Britain to Europe"
To reverse that ratchet required two things. First, create a precedent by getting some modest powers back. Sadly, the PM was unable to get back a single power previously conceded to the EU. Second, whenever the process of integrating the eurozone involves directives or treaty changes requiring our consent, use that leverage to insist on devolving more powers to the UK. Unfortunately, the draft agreement pledges that the UK “shall not impede the implementation of legal acts directly linked to the functioning of the euro area”. That would mean throwing away our trump cards.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12152759/Why-even-David-Cameron-cannot-convince-me-to-vote-to-remain-in-the-EU.html0 -
I'm quite relaxed about The Establishment, but even I'm really quite irked by it all.
From Savile to Stafford to Rotherham to AGW to creeping snooping and restrictions on free speech. It's so oppressive and arse covering.
I used to shrug most of these scandals off as isolated incidents. Now, I feel it's a much broader reflection of an attitude.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
MD, In some ways I think that this is a good thing.Morris_Dancer said:America's kicking back against the Establishment, not the Youth.
The 'establishment' in both the US and European spheres has got way too complacent in recent years imo.
The modern equivalent of 'the occasional assassination' pour encourager les autres.0 -
Don't think I've suggested Britain is a shit country - quote? I just think that national bachelorhood is risky.MaxPB said:
Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
You've also basically posted a bunch of "Britain is a shit country and too small to survive alone". I'm not sure that is going to convince as many people as you think it will.
Yes, Soubry is as pro-EU as I am. She said in local debate that "I follow Ken Clarke in all things". We agree on plenty - she's socially liberal too, and indeed attacked me for being insufficiently early in welcoming gay marriage (I initially thought civil partnerships were a reasonable way forward, and saw the point about equal marriage later). Our differences are partly tribal - she is as instinctively Tory as I'm instinctively Labour - and partly temperamental: our personal styles are about as different as it's possible to be: she sees herself as in constant battle against enemies on all sides, while I basically don't see anyone as an enemy. She's more successful in her party than I was I mine, so that's not necessarily a comparison to my advantage!0 -
I'm more or less even on the Democrat race, though I'm certainly not backing Hilary at evens. The Donald looks to perhaps be most value in the POTUS market right now, his implied chance is only around 30 - 35% or so, and given he got more votes than Clinton in New Hampshire................0
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FTPT
There is no way Shirley that the conservative membership would vote for Fox in a head to head? Do I not understand the makeup of the Conservative membership?0 -
That's only true if Labour's move to the left doesn't result in a bigger proportion of the more right wing Labour voters moving elsewhere....NickPalmer said:Incidentally, my Green opponent in 2015 has now joined Labour. His complaint was that Labour wasn't sufficiently left-wing, rather than not sufficiently environmental, and we now meet his rather exacting standards on that front. I expect several other local Greens to follow, and they were half the difference from the Tories in 2015 (and more than 100% of it in 2010), so it's useful.
The one saving grace for Labour as they move left is that for many people up north the other plausible options are either toxic (Tories and UKIP) or utterly unlikely to win (Lib Dems)... Until a none toxic centre party arrives Labour will still do well up north.
Once it appears Labour will go the way of Scotland down to a small rump of support...0 -
You might be surprised to find that a lot of Labour voters last year may not vote Labour next time because the party's leader likes to hang out with apologists for terrorism and people who advocate the killing of British soldiers.NickPalmer said:Incidentally, my Green opponent in 2015 has now joined Labour. His complaint was that Labour wasn't sufficiently left-wing, rather than not sufficiently environmental, and we now meet his rather exacting standards on that front. I expect several other local Greens to follow, and they were half the difference from the Tories in 2015 (and more than 100% of it in 2010), so it's useful.
0 -
Well that's the implication by saying we wouldn't survive outside of the EU. I think that is why the Remain campaign is floundering so much, the message is being received in this way.NickPalmer said:
Don't think I've suggested Britain is a shit country - quote? I just think that national bachelorhood is risky.MaxPB said:
Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
You've also basically posted a bunch of "Britain is a shit country and too small to survive alone". I'm not sure that is going to convince as many people as you think it will.
Yes, Soubry is as pro-EU as I am. She said in local debate that "I follow Ken Clarke in all things". We agree on plenty - she's socially liberal too, and indeed attacked me for being insufficiently early in welcoming gay marriage (I initially thought civil partnerships were a reasonable way forward, and saw the point about equal marriage later). Our differences are partly tribal - she is as instinctively Tory as I'm instinctively Labour - and partly temperamental: our personal styles are about as different as it's possible to be: she sees herself as in constant battle against enemies on all sides, while I basically don't see anyone as an enemy. She's more successful in her party than I was I mine, so that's not necessarily a comparison to my advantage!0 -
Thought she was an SDPer rather than 'instinctively Tory'?NickPalmer said:
Don't think I've suggested Britain is a shit country - quote? I just think that national bachelorhood is risky.MaxPB said:
Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
You've also basically posted a bunch of "Britain is a shit country and too small to survive alone". I'm not sure that is going to convince as many people as you think it will.
Yes, Soubry is as pro-EU as I am. She said in local debate that "I follow Ken Clarke in all things". We agree on plenty - she's socially liberal too, and indeed attacked me for being insufficiently early in welcoming gay marriage (I initially thought civil partnerships were a reasonable way forward, and saw the point about equal marriage later). Our differences are partly tribal - she is as instinctively Tory as I'm instinctively Labour - and partly temperamental: our personal styles are about as different as it's possible to be: she sees herself as in constant battle against enemies on all sides, while I basically don't see anyone as an enemy. She's more successful in her party than I was I mine, so that's not necessarily a comparison to my advantage!0 -
Sorry but I would think no token gay is better than a political repulsive token gay....blackburn63 said:
I've said on here before the bloke is a buffoon, there is a feeling from many in Ukip that he got the job as a token gay man.eek said:
You have to ask where on earth do UKIP find these people.... It's bad enough complaining about someone else spending time helping a food bank far worse to do it when one of your General Election policies was to help them out...AlastairMeeks said:0 -
The irony of Holyrood politicians arguing for the devolution of greater powers from Westminster while at the same time undermining local government in Scotland has not been lost on council leaders.
http://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2016/feb/12/council-legal-advice-scottish-government-cuts0 -
Holy Moly http://news.sky.com/story/1640415/25-percent-of-female-rape-victims-are-under-15
A quarter of female victims are aged just 14 or under, while 9% are not even as old as 10 when they are attacked.
The statistics, from a detailed breakdown of the age and gender of victims of alleged sexual offences, were recorded from March 2014-15 from 13 police forces in England and Wales.0 -
The UKIP mayoral candidate is gay tooeek said:
Sorry but I would think no token gay is better than a political repulsive token gay....blackburn63 said:
I've said on here before the bloke is a buffoon, there is a feeling from many in Ukip that he got the job as a token gay man.eek said:
You have to ask where on earth do UKIP find these people.... It's bad enough complaining about someone else spending time helping a food bank far worse to do it when one of your General Election policies was to help them out...AlastairMeeks said:0 -
For the next few months at least, FT Brussels' morning briefing is going to be essential reading:
http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2016/02/12/brussels-briefing-brexit-beartraps/
Note that it thinks the financial regulation battle will be won by Britain but that there is a hidden danger relating to child benefit that may be the big problem.0 -
That's my point. Believe me the bloke is awful, I've spent time with him. All parties are guilty of tokenism to their detriment.eek said:
Sorry but I would think no token gay is better than a political repulsive token gay....blackburn63 said:
I've said on here before the bloke is a buffoon, there is a feeling from many in Ukip that he got the job as a token gay man.eek said:
You have to ask where on earth do UKIP find these people.... It's bad enough complaining about someone else spending time helping a food bank far worse to do it when one of your General Election policies was to help them out...AlastairMeeks said:0 -
'Unfortunately, the draft agreement pledges that the UK “shall not impede the implementation of legal acts directly linked to the functioning of the euro area”'
Yes I'm afraid Peter Lilley has identified what the PM's cheerleaders don't want us to understand here, i.e. that the 'deal' not only does nothing for the UK in terms of repatriating powers but actually opens the door to faster EU integration.
'Remain' really is pointless now.
0 -
Six Nations: idle musing, but there was just 8 points, total, between the various teams last time (France won by 2, England by 6, and Ireland/Wales drew). Can't remember another opening weekend so tight.
Was tempted to back Ireland to beat France (playing in Paris) but the odds are only evens.0 -
That is not how I read it at all. As far as I can make out Nick is arguing that it is not in our best interests to be on our own, not that we could not be on our own. That's very different to saying we are a shit country and too small to survive. Mischaracterising people's arguments when we can all read them is not a winning strategy either.MaxPB said:
Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
You've also basically posted a bunch of "Britain is a shit country and too small to survive alone". I'm not sure that is going to convince as many people as you think it will.0 -
Why would we want to cripple the functioning of the Euro area?LewisDuckworth said:Apologies (1) if this has been highlighted on a previous thread, and (2) if this extract is too long: Peter Lilley in today's Telegraph
Given that Britain lost its powers in a series of salami slices, I accepted that we could only hope to get powers back bit by bit. I wanted the PM to start that process but knew it would be difficult. It would mean abrogating the doctrine that once a power has been transferred to the EU it can never return to a member state. That doctrine (not “ever closer union”) has driven the process of European integration and is held tenaciously by the European Commission.
"Each new directive, regulation and Court ruling will leach power irrevocably from Britain to Europe"
To reverse that ratchet required two things. First, create a precedent by getting some modest powers back. Sadly, the PM was unable to get back a single power previously conceded to the EU. Second, whenever the process of integrating the eurozone involves directives or treaty changes requiring our consent, use that leverage to insist on devolving more powers to the UK. Unfortunately, the draft agreement pledges that the UK “shall not impede the implementation of legal acts directly linked to the functioning of the euro area”. That would mean throwing away our trump cards.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12152759/Why-even-David-Cameron-cannot-convince-me-to-vote-to-remain-in-the-EU.html
How would we be able to prevent the ever closer union of the Euro area if we were not in the EU?
What meaningful powers could we claim back if we were in the EEA and part of the single market?
The ECHR is not the EU and it is the HRA and UK judges who pass crass verdicts in its name - this it seems is going to be repealed independently of the EU negotiations.
How would we help create a single market in financial services if we were not in the EU?
Is in not now law that any new treaty must pass a referendum before parliament passes it?
How is it that Peter Lilley has suddenly become so so incisive in his political judgements?
0 -
Martin Daubney
Men masturbated at Jess Philips "throughout her childhood". Christ. Where did she live?! https://t.co/7uirckKdKQ https://t.co/6ChV1ynCzS0 -
He is absolutely saying that we couldn't survive on our own. The implication is that we are too shitty and small to go it alone. I think otherwise, of course, and I know you do as well, but Nick's position is very clear as is the position of most Europhiles, especially those on the left. On the right the argument is that having a seat at the big boys table is worth the compromise in terms of sovereignty, an argument I also disagree with. The left seems to have this strain of Britain bashing that you can't see.SouthamObserver said:
That is not how I read it at all. As far as I can make out Nick is arguing that it is not in our best interests to be on our own, not that we could not be on our own. That's very different to saying we are a shit country and too small to survive. Mischaracterising people's arguments when we can all read them is not a winning strategy either.MaxPB said:
Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
You've also basically posted a bunch of "Britain is a shit country and too small to survive alone". I'm not sure that is going to convince as many people as you think it will.0 -
Age? It's hard to find any of the great and good in the Democratic party who are not older than Al Gore, who is surely of a past generation.0
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Morning. Catching up on LOTS of threads after a few days away working. I still have no idea what the hell is happening either with the US election, or with the PM trying (and failing miserably) to negotiate with the EU.
Great cricket commentary from the other day though!0 -
Well, Nick's told you that he is not saying that. You are looking for stuff that is not there because you think the left is wicked.MaxPB said:
He is absolutely saying that we couldn't survive on our own. The implication is that we are too shitty and small to go it alone. I think otherwise, of course, and I know you do as well, but Nick's position is very clear as is the position of most Europhiles, especially those on the left. On the right the argument is that having a seat at the big boys table is worth the compromise in terms of sovereignty, an argument I also disagree with. The left seems to have this strain of Britain bashing that you can't see.SouthamObserver said:
That is not how I read it at all. As far as I can make out Nick is arguing that it is not in our best interests to be on our own, not that we could not be on our own. That's very different to saying we are a shit country and too small to survive. Mischaracterising people's arguments when we can all read them is not a winning strategy either.MaxPB said:
Isn't Soubry a paid up member of the Europhile club?NickPalmer said:Doing my bit to keep the Labour vote in Broxtowe onside:
http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/europe-decision-day-coming/
You've also basically posted a bunch of "Britain is a shit country and too small to survive alone". I'm not sure that is going to convince as many people as you think it will.
0 -
As much as I'd like to call Birmingham a concrete jungle, dump and agree with Jess (Being from rival Coventry) it simply ain't so. Broad Street is a heady mix of booze, testosterone and oestrogen full of young men and women looking for a good night out but the comparison with what happened in Cologne is vile and false.She's trying to get out the hole by digging deeper and deeper now.Plato_Says said:Martin Daubney
Men masturbated at Jess Philips "throughout her childhood". Christ. Where did she live?! https://t.co/7uirckKdKQ https://t.co/6ChV1ynCzS0 -
Well, he was incisive and right when telling Gordon Brown that his Bank Regulatory System was a monumental cock up, so for a long time.flightpath01 said:
Why would we want to cripple the functioning of the Euro area?LewisDuckworth said:Apologies (1) if this has been highlighted on a previous thread, and (2) if this extract is too long: Peter Lilley in today's Telegraph
to the EU. Second, whenever the process of integrating the eurozone involves directives or treaty changes requiring our consent, use that leverage to insist on devolving more powers to the UK. Unfortunately, the draft agreement pledges that the UK “shall not impede the implementation of legal acts directly linked to the functioning of the euro area”. That would mean throwing away our trump cards.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12152759/Why-even-David-Cameron-cannot-convince-me-to-vote-to-remain-in-the-EU.html
How would we be able to prevent the ever closer union of the Euro area if we were not in the EU?
What meaningful powers could we claim back if we were in the EEA and part of the single market?
The ECHR is not the EU and it is the HRA and UK judges who pass crass verdicts in its name - this it seems is going to be repealed independently of the EU negotiations.
How would we help create a single market in financial services if we were not in the EU?
Is in not now law that any new treaty must pass a referendum before parliament passes it?
How is it that Peter Lilley has suddenly become so so incisive in his political judgements?
Peter Lilley, shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer [Official Report, 11 November 1997; Vol. 300, c. 731-32.]
“With the removal of banking control to the Financial Services Authority…it is difficult to see how and whether the Bank remains, as it surely must, responsible for ensuring the liquidity of the banking system and preventing systemic collapse.”
“The coverage of the FSA will be huge; its objectives will be many, and potentially in conflict with one another. The range of its activities will be so diverse that no one person in it will understand them all.”
“…that the Government may, almost casually, have bitten off more than they can chew. The process of setting up the FSA may cause regulators to take their eye off the ball, while spivs and crooks have a field day.”
[Official Report, 11 November 1997; Vol. 300, c. 731-32.]0 -
Why isn't there already a single market in services? Are our EU partners frit?flightpath01 said:
Why would we want to cripple the functioning of the Euro area?LewisDuckworth said:Apologies (1) if this has been highlighted on a previous thread, and (2) if this extract is too long: Peter Lilley in today's Telegraph
Given that Britain lost its powers in a series of salami slices, I accepted that we could only hope to get powers back bit by bit. I wanted the PM to start that process but knew it would be difficult. It would mean abrogating the doctrine that once a power has been transferred to the EU it can never return to a member state. That doctrine (not “ever closer union”) has driven the process of European integration and is held tenaciously by the European Commission.
"Each new directive, regulation and Court ruling will leach power irrevocably from Britain to Europe"
To reverse that ratchet required two things. First, create a precedent by getting some modest powers back. Sadly, the PM was unable to get back a single power previously conceded to the EU. Second, whenever the process of integrating the eurozone involves directives or treaty changes requiring our consent, use that leverage to insist on devolving more powers to the UK. Unfortunately, the draft agreement pledges that the UK “shall not impede the implementation of legal acts directly linked to the functioning of the euro area”. That would mean throwing away our trump cards.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12152759/Why-even-David-Cameron-cannot-convince-me-to-vote-to-remain-in-the-EU.html
How would we be able to prevent the ever closer union of the Euro area if we were not in the EU?
What meaningful powers could we claim back if we were in the EEA and part of the single market?
The ECHR is not the EU and it is the HRA and UK judges who pass crass verdicts in its name - this it seems is going to be repealed independently of the EU negotiations.
How would we help create a single market in financial services if we were not in the EU?
Is in not now law that any new treaty must pass a referendum before parliament passes it?
How is it that Peter Lilley has suddenly become so so incisive in his political judgements?
0 -
That baby lying dead on the beach is still dead, those scores of people drowned in mickey mouse boats are still dead. Its disgusting and crass to use this panic and suffering as an issue of membership of the EU.TOPPING said:
I think playing the immigrant card might, perish the thought, force to the surface the inherent tolerance and good nature of us Brits and hence have the opposite effect to that intended. Plus there will be plenty of children and sob stories amongst the immigrants and that might play either way.Indigo said:
It's a calculated risk imo. Yes, talking about sovereignty might have some mileage in it, but its dry as dust, and doesn't grab most people by the throat. When in 6-8 weeks time that estimate of 1.3m people converging on German turns out to be a large underestimate, and when the migrant flow is massively front loaded with people desperate to get into German or Sweden (or the UK) before the borders starting being slammed shut. When people uprooting fences and scuffling with border forces in on the news every night, banging on about immigration while not everyone's cup of tea might be vindicated as a strategy. Its another Overton Window issue, look at how much the public view has moved in the last three years, from people screaming racists if you spoke about it, to people looking incredulously at politicians if they try and gloss over it.DecrepitJohnL said:
If only there were some sort of campaigning organisation to explain this, instead of banging on about bloody migrants on benefits all the time.TOPPING said:
Calling it an anti-democratic group is to miss the point. It is a supranational body with adugarbandier said:
As a reminder, toser not to say Leave might edge it.
If the immigrant card is going to be played then, again, it must be tied to sovereignty ("The UK is not allowed by the EU to determine who is or is not allowed in to our country."). But immigration has too much baggage imo for it to be a potent weapon for either side and that message will be lost. I mean did anyone actually ask (apart from NF and he is to monotonic to be listened to these days) why Dave's immigration pledge could not have been honoured? It got diverted into the issue of immigration per se.
The refugee problem is a problem of the Syrian civil war, that is a big enough and serious enough problem to warrant being discussed on its own.0
This discussion has been closed.