politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Labour wasn’t so obsessed with fighting itself it would

SandyRentool said:

Sandpit said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.

Yes, you can see the priorities.

Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

If the other universities want to apply a No Platform policy it should be consistent.

Good on Nottingham for that policy. Universities are where controversial debated are supposed to be held! If they want a 'No Platform' policy then it needs to include Moazzem Begg as well as Nick Griffin.

The beginning of the end for Griffin was his appearance on Question Time - until then he had thrived on being the man that was effectively banned from speaking in public. Free speech should win every time.

Very true about Griffin. I was in the QT studio audience and witnessed the beginning of the end of the BNP. Those protesting outside TV centre saying he shouldn't be on the panel got it so totally wrong. Also on the panel that night was someone who later ended up in prison...

Yes, the level of protesting was ridiculous, living in fear of millions of people falling under his sway if only we heard him, or at least such was the implication.

Who went to prison?

Well said. My old housecellar was flooded every winter, but we'd a pump running 24/7 to get rid of the ground water.

My hubbie turned it off once and we had water 4ft deep and rising rapidly within a few hours. Our garden and fields were always under water this time of year. Perils of living at sea level.

SandyRentool said:

The BMA sounds like the name of an organisation that exists to look after our health. Warm and friendly. If they were called the National Union of Doctors the public might view them differently.

Also, the government ought to keep pointing out the typical salary of a Registrar - not a very 'junior' income by any measure.

Off topic - still lots of flooded fields between York and Doncaster. God must have a downer on his* Own Country.

*his or its? not sure how to refer to the non-existent.

@paulwaugh: One for fans of The Jam & The Kinks. From today's WaughZone
https://t.co/zbanEHQfxb https://t.co/OcDsbkUYbx

@MichaelDugher: @patrickwintour Tough on croissants. Tough on the causes of croissants.

Not in a flooded area, but the level of saturation and continual heavy rainfall means I'm unsurprised lots of fields are still submerged. We had more rain last night, and there's nowhere for it to go.

OT if you're on Twitter, there's a great nostalgia Newcastle photo account @turnipheadpics

SandyRentool said:

kle4 said:

SandyRentool said:

Sandpit said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

Yes, you can see the priorities.

Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

If the other universities want to apply a No Platform policy it should be consistent.

Good on Nottingham for that policy. Universities are where controversial debated are supposed to be held! If they want a 'No Platform' policy then it needs to include Moazzem Begg as well as Nick Griffin.

The beginning of the end for Griffin was his appearance on Question Time - until then he had thrived on being the man that was effectively banned from speaking in public. Free speech should win every time.

Very true about Griffin. I was in the QT studio audience and witnessed the beginning of the end of the BNP. Those protesting outside TV centre saying he shouldn't be on the panel got it so totally wrong. Also on the panel that night was someone who later ended up in prison...

Yes, the level of protesting was ridiculous, living in fear of millions of people falling under his sway if only we heard him, or at least such was the implication.

Who went to prison?

Chris Huhne

There are reports of an explosion in Istanbul.

The BMA has published a summary of the recent negotiations, according to which four significant areas of disagreement remain. Three concern pay, in particular the definition of antisocial hours. The other is about safeguarding measures to ensure adherence to the new hours policy. Is this latter really irresolvable? Or is it just there to anticipate the charge that this is all about money?

The Government has promised that there will be no pay cut for all but one per cent of junior doctors. Some will even see a pay rise. True, many will not get the rise they expected. But that is very different from a cut. And if that is what we are striking about, we need to be upfront about it with a public that has voted to accept austerity.

We have also been assured that the maximum hours we can be required to work will be reduced. Some of us may work longer hours but many will work fewer. And the longest shifts will go. They may not be such congenial hours – there will certainly be more weekends. But those are the same hours that plenty of other professions accept, including nurses.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12093767/Why-this-doctor-wont-be-on-strike-today.html

SandyRentool said:

Sandpit said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

.

Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

If the other universities want to apply a No Platform policy it should be consistent.

Good on Nottingham for that policy. Universities are where controversial debated are supposed to be held! If they want a 'No Platform' policy then it needs to include Moazzem Begg as well as Nick Griffin.

The beginning of the end for Griffin was his appearance on Question Time - until then he had thrived on being the man that was effectively banned from speaking in public. Free speech should win every time.

Very true about Griffin. I was in the QT studio audience and witnessed the beginning of the end of the BNP. Those protesting outside TV centre saying he shouldn't be on the panel got it so totally wrong. Also on the panel that night was someone who later ended up in prison...

Good story. I remember watching it on TV and wishing for a broader discussion, rather than half the programme being about his own appearance on it.

I'm all in favour of letting scumbags speak as long as they are not inciting a riot. As my father once said, it is always better to be thought an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!!

Ah yes, Chris Huhne!

Morris_Dancer said:

Breaking: explosion in Istanbul:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35290760

TV reporting several dead.

There are so many options as to who did this: ISIS, PKK, PKK offshoots, lefty groups (e.g. DHKP-C).

Or, with tinfoil hat on, the government. Although with the above groups all in action, they hardly need to do anything like this.

Philip_Thompson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

John McDonnell did have time yesterday to pose with his various Cage friends for a picture outside the US embassy.

Yes, you can see the priorities.

Cage are an utterly pernicious organisation. The fact that the sainted Babar Ahmed is palling around with them should make those who canonised him on his return from Guantanamo pause for thought about whether he's quite the naive fool innocently caught up with terrorists that he made himself out to be. Same for Moazzem Begg and the rest of them.

If it is unacceptable for the likes of EDL to be going to universities and encouraging students not to comply with the law then so much more for Cage, which is doing exactly that. What the hell are universities doing letting this happen? Don't their precious Codes of Conduct about anti-racism and pro-feminism and pro-gays and the rest of it actually mean anything?

I went to one of the only (if not the only) Russell Group universities to then annually oppose and not implement the NUS No Platform policy. The University of Nottingham actually had a Free Speech policy which I was quite proud of instead. After I left the uni was going to host Nick Griffin I believe in a debate but it got cancelled not due to policy but the costs the Police would have charged for security reasons.

Good for you.

Mr. Jessop, unsure if it's true, but a few days ago Edrogan reportedly said he wanted to be 'like Hitler'. Bonkers, but then, Ecclestone said he (Hitler) at least knew how to get things done.

Ed West
Doctor pay by country according to Forbes. Why isn't the NHS full of Swedish and Norwegian doctors? https://t.co/gIqxy6BddU

TGOHF said:

On topic - this strike's popularity will depend on the media war. Keep the smears/facts about the BMA coming and add in a couple of deaths today and support will drain away.

BBC – top on-line story – "Patients hit by junior doctors’ strike.

Thousands of patients have treatment postponed as junior doctors in England go on strike"

In the media battle, I make that HMG 1 – BMA 0.

rcs1000 said:

david_herdson said:

PClipp said:

It´s lucky the Lib Dems are still around to give some criticism of this dreadful government.

Shame there aren´t more Lib Dem MPs.

How does the Labour Party justify the enormous subsidies they get from the state?

There aren't more Lib Dem MPs because they were dreadful in government.

While that may be true, that's not why they are in the state they are in today. The LibDems have been hammered for two reasons:

1. The Conservative Party under David Cameron has moved to the centre, grabbing a lot of LibDem votes. He's been perfectly happy to lose his own right wing to UKIP, because he sees a better election winning coalition in the centre. And so far, he's been proved right.

2. Once the LibDems went into coalition with the Conservatives, they lost an awful lot of their tactical Labour votes. It will take a long-time before Labour supporters - who saw the LibDems as lapdogs on the Left - forgive, if they ever do.

The best opportunity for the LibDems (or another centrist party) will come if the Conservative Party under whoever follows Cameron decides it wants to compete for the UKIP vote. If Corbyn is still leader of the Labour Party then, it will mean there is a big space in the centre that is up for grabs.

(1) isn't quite correct and, in fact, (2) isn't either - Cameron did most of his modernising prior to the 2010GE, where the LDs under Clegg got one of their highest votes ever, denying him a majority, and where UKIP were practically nowhere under Lord Rannoch.

The 2015GE manifesto tacitly recognised the threat to the Tory right flank and had offerings in there on defence, the EU referendum, human rights reform and the migration cap - with further measures on EU migration, and tax cuts for higher earners.

The fact that the LDs collapsed at the election, but the UKIP vote did not, was entirely unexpected and no one was more surprised than Cameron himself. It is also worth noting that not that many LD votes collapsed in Cameron's favour, but just enough (c.20-25%) for him to pick up the seats. The Tory vote did increase in England a little bit but only by 1-2%. Meanwhile, a big part of the NOTA vote moved to UKIP, shifting England (and to a lesser extent Wales) significantly to the political Right.

We must be careful not to retrospectively rewrite what really happened.

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

John McDonnell did go last night, but he turned up late.

How come Heidi Alexander, shadow Health Secretary, isn't doing her job?

She's absolutely crap.

That's as may be, but she's very backable at 66/1, especially with signs that this strike might be the first of many: http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-labour-leader

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jessop, unsure if it's true, but a few days ago Edrogan reportedly said he wanted to be 'like Hitler'. Bonkers, but then, Ecclestone said he (Hitler) at least knew how to get things done.

I heard about that, though the quote's not as you say. However it's another sign that Erdogan's taking Turkey in the wrong direction.

The article below has the quote, and a 'clarification'. Given Erdogan's experienced and not stupid, he would have chosen his words with care. It's particularly bad as the background is that he might be attempting a power grab.

The question "was Hitler's Germany 'effective' government?" is not one a serious politician should risk asking. There be dragons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/01/turkish-president-recep-tayyip-erdogan-hitlers-germany-example-effective-government

SandyRentool said:

Plato_Says said:

Ed West
Doctor pay by country according to Forbes. Why isn't the NHS full of Swedish and Norwegian doctors? https://t.co/gIqxy6BddU

If they are anything like Swedish nurses, they are too busy making 'art films'.

SimonStClare said:

TGOHF said:

On topic - this strike's popularity will depend on the media war. Keep the smears/facts about the BMA coming and add in a couple of deaths today and support will drain away.

BBC – top on-line story – "Patients hit by junior doctors’ strike.

Thousands of patients have treatment postponed as junior doctors in England go on strike"

In the media battle, I make that HMG 1 – BMA 0.

Morning all,

And so Bowie gives way to more prosaic news. The alternative headline would be far worse for junior doctors:

"No discernible difference as junior doctors strike"

rottenborough said:

SimonStClare said:

TGOHF said:

On topic - this strike's popularity will depend on the media war. Keep the smears/facts about the BMA coming and add in a couple of deaths today and support will drain away.

BBC – top on-line story – "Patients hit by junior doctors’ strike.

Thousands of patients have treatment postponed as junior doctors in England go on strike"

In the media battle, I make that HMG 1 – BMA 0.

Morning all,

And so Bowie gives way to more prosaic news. The alternative headline would be far worse for junior doctors:

"No discernible difference as junior doctors strike"

Or "Nurses able to get on with their jobs, as not having to tell junior doctors what they should be doing"

SandyRentool said:

Plato_Says said:

Ed West
Doctor pay by country according to Forbes. Why isn't the NHS full of Swedish and Norwegian doctors? https://t.co/gIqxy6BddU

If they are anything like Swedish nurses, they are too busy making 'art films'.

Why are the Dutch paid so much?

@ZoraSuleman: Sandwell Hospital in West Bromwich has declared a level 4 incident and told its junior doctors they must attend work

watford30 said:

Sandpit said:

Plato_Says said:

The BMA has published a summary of the recent negotiations, according to which four significant areas of disagreement remain. Three concern pay, in particular the definition of antisocial hours. The other is about safeguarding measures to ensure adherence to the new hours policy. Is this latter really irresolvable? Or is it just there to anticipate the charge that this is all about money?

The Government has promised that there will be no pay cut for all but one per cent of junior doctors. Some will even see a pay rise. True, many will not get the rise they expected. But that is very different from a cut. And if that is what we are striking about, we need to be upfront about it with a public that has voted to accept austerity.

We have also been assured that the maximum hours we can be required to work will be reduced. Some of us may work longer hours but many will work fewer. And the longest shifts will go. They may not be such congenial hours – there will certainly be more weekends. But those are the same hours that plenty of other professions accept, including nurses.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12093767/Why-this-doctor-wont-be-on-strike-today.html

That's a really good article about the dispute. It would be good to hear something equally eloquent from a doctor on the other side.

Also a good info pane at the bottom with details of career progression, salaries and bonuses.

Blimey.

20-30's, earning up to £40,000 to £65,000 including overtime.

31 upwards as a Consultant picking up a starting salary of £74K rising to an average of £130,000.

Training heavily subsidised by the taxpayer.

The public will see those figures and begin to ask questions.

I don't think those numbers are unreasonable for an academic elite having gone through years of training and working 12 hour shifts. Especially as they have our lives in their hands.

Sandpit said:

The beginning of the end for Griffin was his appearance on Question Time - until then he had thrived on being the man that was effectively banned from speaking in public. Free speech should win every time.

The BNP's best ever result was in the 2010 GE, 7 months after Griffin's QT appearance.

TheScreamingEagles said:

On topic both sides need to resolve it before the big walkout on the 10th of Feb.

That's when the poop will hit the fan for both sides.

If the Docs had any political nous, they'll call it off when they see their support drain away in the coming days.

Widespread public sympathy for strikes simply has not existed since the 70s.

Not even for firefighters; well paid young professionals will get no 'bounce'.

''For some reason there's six hours of blank space at the start!''

That is a fascinating bit of video. Carwyn Jones is a really nice guy, a proper decent labour man, but talk about Christians and Lions!!

I think Wales is tired of labour, even the heartlands, and I think there could be a few shocks in the summer.

NickPalmer said:

TOPPING said:

Agree. But. The government isn't saying "look other people are having a pay cut, you must also." It is saying "we are giving you an 11% pay rise" as though that compensates for the change in unsocial hours banding pay. It is being economic with the actualite to say the least.

Also, the fact that other professionals have had to take a pay cut isn't really a compelling argument if you think you might be able to resist it. "Other people are miserable, now it's your turn" is not very persuasive.

But although the public will I think support the doctors whatever happens, I'm not sure how much public opinion matters in these disputes. Occasional disruption can go on for a long time and people treat it like bad weather - a nuisance but just the way things are. That's why the Tube strikes aren't producing huge outrage or pressure on either side - polls show there that people are more against than for the strikes, though it's not overwhelming, but they're infrequent enough not to seem that significant.

Living in Sevenoaks, I know a fair few people who quite look forward to Tube strikes, as it gives them an excuse to work at home for the day.

Scott_P said:

@GPW_Portland: Corbyn's Labour has now abandoned Labour's default position on strikes - not to comment - and is supporting junior docs.

Progress?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCV5XWiW6gc

@JournoStephen: I pity striking doctors. Their grievances may be legitimate but some of their spokespeople sound like Arthur Scargill with a stethoscope.

BBC: "Toyota has said it will stay in the UK, even if the country decides to leave the European Union in an upcoming referendum."

Of course they will. The planks of the Remain argument will fall away, one by one.

''It's becoming ever clearer that large swathes of the health service are run with the producers interests in mind.''

Give 'em enough rope....

One thing about the Dr's strike. They were complaining about working silly hours over weekends, and rightly so. No there's moves to 'regularise' work hours and they complain again. Personally I'd like to be seen by a doctor approaching the end of a 40hr work week rather than a doctor approaching the end of 40hr back to back shift, where said doctor will be receiving overtime and extra payments.

Roger said:

watford30 said:

Sandpit said:

Plato_Says said:

The BMA has published a summary of the recent negotiations, according to which four significant areas of disagreement remain. Three concern pay, in particular the definition of antisocial hours. The other is about safeguarding measures to ensure adherence to the new hours policy. Is this latter really irresolvable? Or is it just there to anticipate the charge that this is all about money?

The Government has promised that there will be no pay cut for all but one per cent of junior doctors. Some will even see a pay rise. True, many will not get the rise they expected. But that is very different from a cut. And if that is what we are striking about, we need to be upfront about it with a public that has voted to accept austerity.

We have also been assured that the maximum hours we can be required to work will be reduced. Some of us may work longer hours but many will work fewer. And the longest shifts will go. They may not be such congenial hours – there will certainly be more weekends. But those are the same hours that plenty of other professions accept, including nurses.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12093767/Why-this-doctor-wont-be-on-strike-today.html

That's a really good article about the dispute. It would be good to hear something equally eloquent from a doctor on the other side.

Also a good info pane at the bottom with details of career progression, salaries and bonuses.

Blimey.

20-30's, earning up to £40,000 to £65,000 including overtime.

31 upwards as a Consultant picking up a starting salary of £74K rising to an average of £130,000.

Training heavily subsidised by the taxpayer.

The public will see those figures and begin to ask questions.

Then again maybe they'll compare the £74,000-£130,000 a doctor can earn at the very top of their profession with cabinet minister like Jeremy Hunt who earns £134,000 for who knows what?.

Except £130k isn't the max....next...

Roger said:

watford30 said:

Sandpit said:

Plato_Says said:

The BMA has published a summary of the recent negotiations, according to which four significant areas of disagreement remain. Three concern pay, in particular the definition of antisocial hours. The other is about safeguarding measures to ensure adherence to the new hours policy. Is this latter really irresolvable? Or is it just there to anticipate the charge that this is all about money?

The Government has promised that there will be no pay cut for all but one per cent of junior doctors. Some will even see a pay rise. True, many will not get the rise they expected. But that is very different from a cut. And if that is what we are striking about, we need to be upfront about it with a public that has voted to accept austerity.

We have also been assured that the maximum hours we can be required to work will be reduced. Some of us may work longer hours but many will work fewer. And the longest shifts will go. They may not be such congenial hours – there will certainly be more weekends. But those are the same hours that plenty of other professions accept, including nurses.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12093767/Why-this-doctor-wont-be-on-strike-today.html

That's a really good article about the dispute. It would be good to hear something equally eloquent from a doctor on the other side.

Also a good info pane at the bottom with details of career progression, salaries and bonuses.

Blimey.

20-30's, earning up to £40,000 to £65,000 including overtime.

31 upwards as a Consultant picking up a starting salary of £74K rising to an average of £130,000.

Training heavily subsidised by the taxpayer.

The public will see those figures and begin to ask questions.

Then again maybe they'll compare the £74,000-£130,000 a doctor can earn at the very top of their profession with cabinet minister like Jeremy Hunt who earns £134,000 for who knows what?.

Doctors become consultants in their early thirties by following a conveyor belt. The £74k is not for people at the very top of their profession. Compare that salary against a chartered engineer of similar age.

Err

'Female suicide bomber caught' minutes after explosion in Istanbul https://t.co/eNyIzcg1uL https://t.co/4NZndBjRqT

Plato_Says said:

Err

'Female suicide bomber caught' minutes after explosion in Istanbul https://t.co/eNyIzcg1uL https://t.co/4NZndBjRqT

Hopefully there aren't any more nutters running about Istanbul today.

Scott_P said:

@alexmassie: The eurosceptics are afraid they're losing. Which is why they're whining. Today's @thetimes column: https://t.co/KGJ6tHgvIb

Yet another pro-EU article which fails to suggest a single advantage of remaining in the EU.

Alanbrooke said:

Economy on the slide

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/12094473/Pound-plunges-to-five-year-low-as-manufacturing-performance-worse-than-anyone-expected.html

Blessed relief for exporters.

Plato_Says said:

Ed West
Doctor pay by country according to Forbes. Why isn't the NHS full of Swedish and Norwegian doctors? https://t.co/gIqxy6BddU

As I said last night, the underlying issue is student fees. In days gone past when there were minimal fees or bursaries students had some sense that they owed the government for their education and training so didn't complain about the shitty hours and mediocre pay, now that we have turned students into consumers they are more discerning about the kind of jobs they will take afterwards. Say what you like about the BMA being a bunch of Trots, but the reality is that the juniors voted for a strike because they are being asked to pay for their education and then take crap wages (at least compared to other countries where their services are in demand) and crap hours. It's because a club sandwich with three layers of shit.

It was a natural consequence of charging so much for education. People aren't going to pay to be dumped on.

Pulpstar said:

Alanbrooke said:

Economy on the slide

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/12094473/Pound-plunges-to-five-year-low-as-manufacturing-performance-worse-than-anyone-expected.html

Blessed relief for exporters.

The whole export meme is just plain wrong, we would have a better economy if we re-shored.

Sandpit said:

Does anyone else think this is way too lenient?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3394592/Asylum-seeker-raped-devout-Christian-virgin-21-twice-casually-walking-away-jailed-10-years.html

Think the perpetrator should be repatriated at the end of the sentence, especially since, according to the article, he had only been granted asylum for 5 years. If he is that worried about being sent back to Eritrea, surely it is not too much to ask that he refrain from committing serious crimes? (well, any crimes really).

Good morning all. NHS England employs 1.3 million people. If it were a city it would be Britain's fifth largest. It's not particularly amenable to reform; Health has replaced Northern Island as the poisoned chalice of cabinet roles.

John_M said:

Good morning all. NHS England employs 1.3 million people. If it were a city it would be Britain's fifth largest. It's not particularly amenable to reform; Health has replaced Northern Island as the poisoned chalice of cabinet roles.

I believe John Reid is supposed to have exclaimed "Not fucking Health!" when Tony Blair offered it to him.

'It's becoming ever clearer that large swathes of the health service are run with the producers interests in mind.'

I think that has been clear for a very long time indeed. It is a similar racket to the legal profession, with the same inflated sense of importance and entitlement.

watford30 said:

Sandpit said:

Plato_Says said:

The BMA has published a summary of the recent negotiations, according to which four significant areas of disagreement remain. Three concern pay, in particular the definition of antisocial hours. The other is about safeguarding measures to ensure adherence to the new hours policy. Is this latter really irresolvable? Or is it just there to anticipate the charge that this is all about money?

The Government has promised that there will be no pay cut for all but one per cent of junior doctors. Some will even see a pay rise. True, many will not get the rise they expected. But that is very different from a cut. And if that is what we are striking about, we need to be upfront about it with a public that has voted to accept austerity.

We have also been assured that the maximum hours we can be required to work will be reduced. Some of us may work longer hours but many will work fewer. And the longest shifts will go. They may not be such congenial hours – there will certainly be more weekends. But those are the same hours that plenty of other professions accept, including nurses.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12093767/Why-this-doctor-wont-be-on-strike-today.html

That's a really good article about the dispute. It would be good to hear something equally eloquent from a doctor on the other side.

Also a good info pane at the bottom with details of career progression, salaries and bonuses.

Blimey.

20-30's, earning up to £40,000 to £65,000 including overtime.

31 upwards as a Consultant picking up a starting salary of £74K rising to an average of £130,000.

Training heavily subsidised by the taxpayer.

The public will see those figures and begin to ask questions.

I think only about 15% of hospital doctors manage to make the jump to consultant.

Plato_Says said:

John Rentoul
Amazing we don't have a 7-day NHS already, yet public supports doctors strike: @JananGanesh https://t.co/4c0w7vmMDz https://t.co/RMpIWv7T7S

As observant as ever:

For a youngish urbanite with good health, well-paid work and no duties, modernity is a daily miracle. Transience — of products, relationships, ideas — is not a problem, it is the point.

But we are a minority, and not a substantial one. If history were a 24-hour clock, this lifestyle has existed for the past second or so. Humans are hard-wired with more plodding desires: security, continuity, a nest. If these desires intensify even as capitalism showers people with bespoke choice, this is not necessarily a glitch. It might just be society’s mysterious equilibrium. Even if the medical rebellion is quelled, public sector reformers are up against more than producer interests. They are up against the oldest human yearnings.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8fe525f8-b84f-11e5-b151-8e15c9a029fb.html#ixzz3x1eG8eeY

Interesting to read Mike's article and the comments that people from various sides have posted here. Almost everyone is seeing this from the point of view of whether the government is making a mistake to take on the vested interests, and almost no-one is asking whether Hunt might actually be right in trying to do what he is doing. I think that is very revealing.

Of course, all governments get into battles with vested interests of one sort or another - remember Patricia Hewitt and the nurses? The political significance is usually less than it seems at the time.