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Hannan is astute (and perhaps sincere) when he says that, Europe apart, he's happy with his party. It plays into his sunny-side-up BOOism.TheScreamingEagles said:
Why would we brush an article under the carpet that saysblackburn63 said:
Ah you put that up while I was typing. The pb Tories will brush it under the carpet regardless.runnymede said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12083557/We-cant-stick-with-the-status-quo-on-the-EU-because-there-isnt-one.html
Dan Hannan spot on again in this article
I voted for David Cameron as Conservative leader and think that he has done a fine job as Prime Minister. The country is in a better place than it was when he took over.0 -
The Labour Party - The Farce Awakens*, directed by JJ
*nicked from yesterdays thread.0 -
TSE..He hasn't been told yet..0
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Well exactly. Either he is playing the long game (didn't @david_herdson say how it is better to be seen as loyal...), or...he has no shame.FrancisUrquhart said:
When somebody yesterday said basically Benn had agree to wear a gimp mask, but could choose the colour of the zips, they were absolutely bang on.TOPPING said:
If there are conflicting stories of who has agreed what with whom and what public face Lab puts on the matter it will remind voters of the worst of the Blair/Brown catfight years.Scott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: John McDonnell confirms to me that if Hilary Benn disagrees with Jeremy Corbyn on future free vote he'll *physically* speak from backbenches
@paulwaugh: The real story behind Jeremy Corbyn's marathon reshuffle. Friends of Benn say he has NOT agreed any 'new conditions' https://t.co/S3g32GN87f
But normal rules have been suspened...to be or be seen to be loyal to a bunch of loons damages Hilary whatever his inside game is. As AA Gill said about people viewing dimwit reality TV shows: sadly there is no irony button to press so people understand how you are viewing it.
McDonnell this morning was comical. There will be a free vote but if anyone disagrees they will be banished to the backbenches. So a sort of one-time free vote.0 -
Calling for Pro Iran air strikes on Riyadh.TheScreamingEagles said:So what's Jez going to ask at PMQs?
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Whatever Bob the BNPer has mailed in this week...TheScreamingEagles said:So what's Jez going to ask at PMQs?
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Well that's going to confuse his fans at Stop The War.TGOHF said:
Calling for Pro Iran air strikes on Riyadh.TheScreamingEagles said:So what's Jez going to ask at PMQs?
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If we think JJ is crap, SeanT wasn't joking about the "women's code" in Germany...
The Mayor of Cologne says women should adopt a “code of conduct” to prevent future attacks following trouble on New Year's eve when women in the city centre were subjected to sexual assaults by hundreds of men
The proposed code of conduct includes staying an arm's length away from strangers, remaining within your own group, and asking bystanders for intervene or to help as a witness.
Such a code for young women and girls was designed " so that such things do not happen to them," said Ms Reker, who added that it would soon be available online.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12083921/Mayor-of-Cologne-urges-code-of-conduct-for-young-women-to-prevent-future-assaults.html
She should have just gone the whole hog and said women should wear head to toe covering when out in public.
I await the "but think about the possible backlash" against migrants....0 -
The Guardian channelling PB Tories
But for all their talk of patient safety the doctors too have sometimes appeared keener on their own interests than they have looked like professionals preoccupied with the wellbeing of their patients
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/05/the-guardian-view-on-the-doctors-strike-make-peace-not-war?CMP=share_btn_tw0 -
@MrTCHarris: If, on a free vote, Benn must speak from the back benches, presumably Corbyn must also?0
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@adrianmcmenamin: What did you do to save the Labour Party daddy?
I issued a tweet that expressed mild annoyance and then went to the Shadow Cabinet meeting0 -
He has Benn on a leash now, so hows exactly that Benn has no cojones but just another whimpering no mark without principles or backbone. Anything to keep his position, weakling.Plato_Says said:I'm struggling to see any upside to this reshuffle.
It's pissed off a bunch more MPs, hasn't solved the Benn problem and now Lady Snob. A Defence Sec shadow that accepted funding from a firm that litigated against soldiers?!0 -
@TedJeory: This is what Emily Thornberry had to say to @PickardJE about Corbyn's leadership credentials in July. Prescient. https://t.co/PFr3fnNIjv0
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Let the reshuffle continue! Long live McMao and Corbyn0
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Who?Scott_P said:Wow
@jreynoldsMP: I have this morning resigned from the Labour frontbench - https://t.co/Sdvrho3HED0 -
A gross exaggeration, the BBC political editor Nick Robinson managed to be fooled for years.kle4 said:Keeping Benn is odd. It just makes me think of how labour pretended for years Blair and brown still got along, fooling no one.
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Apparently a Labour MP with a conscience. Not surprising you have never heard of himFrancisUrquhart said:Who?
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'Wow
@jreynoldsMP: I have this morning resigned from the Labour frontbench - https://t.co/Sdvrho3HED'
Who?0 -
Arrrhhh he is former James Purnell SAD, that makes some sense now...Scott_P said:
Apparently a Labour MP with a conscience. Not surprising you have never heard of himFrancisUrquhart said:Who?
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@bbclaurak: Oh dear - Hilary Benn says 'I m going to carry on doing my job exactly as before' 'I haven't been muzzled'0
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Is Benn really on a leash? He's already said (via briefings) that he is still willing to take a different position from Corbyn. Plus Corbyn has shown himself too weak (no cojones) to sack Benn.malcolmg said:
He has Benn on a leash now, so hows exactly that Benn has no cojones but just another whimpering no mark without principles or backbone. Anything to keep his position, weakling.Plato_Says said:I'm struggling to see any upside to this reshuffle.
It's pissed off a bunch more MPs, hasn't solved the Benn problem and now Lady Snob. A Defence Sec shadow that accepted funding from a firm that litigated against soldiers?!0 -
I thought yesterday nobody would resign because "nobody wanted to be james Purnell". He is obviously the exception...FrancisUrquhart said:Arrrhhh he is former James Purnell SAD, that makes some sense now...
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Au contraire, he wasn't fooled, he just didn't report it. This was his pretty shameful mea culpa - "I did not report then but now can..."SimonStClare said:
A gross exaggeration, the BBC political editor Nick Robinson managed to be fooled for years.kle4 said:Keeping Benn is odd. It just makes me think of how labour pretended for years Blair and brown still got along, fooling no one.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2010/09/blair_and_brown.html0 -
If they can have one every hour for the rest of the day it might be a decent effort.Scott_P said:Wow
@jreynoldsMP: I have this morning resigned from the Labour frontbench - https://t.co/Sdvrho3HED0 -
Surprised Laura could make out what he said...mhmhmhmhmhmm....mmhmhmhmmh...what?...let me unzip that for you....Scott_P said:@bbclaurak: Oh dear - Hilary Benn says 'I m going to carry on doing my job exactly as before' 'I haven't been muzzled'
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@OliverCooper: Now that Shadow Ministers are resigning in protest at Corbyn's purge, any Labour MP that stays on the frontbench is implicitly endorsing it.0
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@DPJHodges: Jonathan Reynolds does the honourable thing. The shadow cabinet do not.0
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Are we getting a betting market on how many days it takes to replace him?0
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Why would nobody want a healthy six-figure salary at the Beeb as Head of Outreach?Scott_P said:
I thought yesterday nobody would resign because "nobody wanted to be james Purnell". He is obviously the exception...FrancisUrquhart said:Arrrhhh he is former James Purnell SAD, that makes some sense now...
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And to have your career made into a a BBC sitcom...TOPPING said:
Why would nobody want a healthy six-figure salary at the Beeb as Head of Outreach?Scott_P said:
I thought yesterday nobody would resign because "nobody wanted to be james Purnell". He is obviously the exception...FrancisUrquhart said:Arrrhhh he is former James Purnell SAD, that makes some sense now...
W1A0 -
@bbclaurak: First to go...Jonathan Reynolds, shadow rail minister resigns
@STJamesl: Of course, Jonny Reynolds worked for James Purnell when he quit (and nobody followed him...)0 -
@bbclaurak: 3 others almost certain to follow, maybe more - Corbyn's team confident no big names but damage nonetheless0
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True, but the Tories will sort themselves out one way or another within six months of the referendum, whichever way it goes. After which the press, having taken a break from Labour's infighting, will be happy to resume the thread.blackburn63 said:I totally understand why the pb Tories are enjoying the Labour farce but please don't rest easy, the inevitable political ebb and flow is coming your way soon. Dan Hannan confirms what a couple of us on here have been saying for a while, a vote to a Remain is not for the status quo it's a whole new level of involvement.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12083557/We-cant-stick-with-the-status-quo-on-the-EU-because-there-isnt-one.html
The press will tire of Corbyn once the Tories start fighting, they defer to nobody in their ability to have a good in house ruck. Villiers and Grayling have got the ball rolling, no big deal, if Gove and May join in Dave's in big trouble, he'll be in the bunker with Osborne and not many others.0 -
ScottP beat me, do they even have enough loyal careerists to replace this?0
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@iAlexhunt: Watch: Hilary Benn says 'I haven't been muzzled' - https://t.co/DKvj2uegP80
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Agree with Mr Herdson that Corbyn intended to get rid of Benn & Eagle but the political consequences of doing so made him U-turn. I think that also accounts for why it took so long.
What seems totally inept to me is why Benn & Eagle were appointed to Foreign Sec and Defence in the first place. Their views were well known, it was obvious that Trident and Syria would become major issues in this parliament. Moving one and keeping the other in place out of weakness a few months after appointing them looks totally incompetent.
I think a party split is wishful thinking. I suspect the moderate camp will give the hard left enough rope to hang itself so that eventually an electable alternative will arise after the Corbyn faction has been given sufficient time to become totally discredited.
I believe that it will eventually be such a shambles that the next leader will not be anyone closely associated with the current shadow cabinet. Benn's chances have diminished and my money would be on those that are keeping their distance on the back benches.0 -
Does anyone have confidence in his team's confidence?Scott_P said:@bbclaurak: 3 others almost certain to follow, maybe more - Corbyn's team confident no big names but damage nonetheless
The team that helped him through the reshuffle that never ends?
The team that though Emily Thornberry was the right answer to any question?0 -
You are certainly correct to say that the battle has to be taken to the unions and the membership, although I'm not sure you are right in your view that the Labour membership (plus now the Three Quidders) are not quite far to the left. Either way, the biggest problem is that the moderates haven't even started the work required to get the membership back into the real world. Even in the most optimistic scenario from the moderates' point of view, that's going to be a long, hard slog.SouthamObserver said:Broadly the same. There are not many Trots in this country, full stop. Labour is undoubtedly more left wing than it was, but it still has the capacity to be a broad church. The hard left is not only vile, it is also very bad at politics - as Corbyn, McDonnell etc are showing. In time they will be defeated again. That probably means at least nine more years of Tory rule, though. Moderates recognise that, I am sure. But there is no alternative strategy available. The membership (and, importantlt, the unions) is the battleground, not the country.
On the impact of the reshuffle specifically, it's shambolic Stalinism. It has strengthened the grip of the extremists on policy and will cement Corbyn in place more firmly. It will also have also weakened his standing even further in the country at large. I remain of the view that Corbyn will last until 2020, and am betting accordingly.0 -
So a minnow has more backbone than Benn. Leader material? He's a joke.Scott_P said:@bbclaurak: 3 others almost certain to follow, maybe more - Corbyn's team confident no big names but damage nonetheless
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Mr. Nabavi, may make the Conservative leadership contest more vicious. If 2020 is seen as an easy win, nobody will be stepping back, as Davis did when Howard got the nod from the PCP.0
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Two cheeks of the same arsePhilip_Thompson said:
Is Benn really on a leash? He's already said (via briefings) that he is still willing to take a different position from Corbyn. Plus Corbyn has shown himself too weak (no cojones) to sack Benn.malcolmg said:
He has Benn on a leash now, so hows exactly that Benn has no cojones but just another whimpering no mark without principles or backbone. Anything to keep his position, weakling.Plato_Says said:I'm struggling to see any upside to this reshuffle.
It's pissed off a bunch more MPs, hasn't solved the Benn problem and now Lady Snob. A Defence Sec shadow that accepted funding from a firm that litigated against soldiers?!0 -
That's my assumption - that there's no real possibility the Tories will split, as in really split into two separate parties.david_herdson said:
True, but the Tories will sort themselves out one way or another within six months of the referendum, whichever way it goes.0 -
@Sean__Clare: David Cameron on his way to commons on #reshuffle: "is it over yet? It's got to keep going or my jokes don't work"0
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lolTheScreamingEagles said:
Playing the man again and not the ball again.blackburn63 said:
TSE I have a question: do you tuck your "I love Dave" tshirt in your y-fronts in the John Major style or do you let it hang loose?TheScreamingEagles said:
Why would we brush an article under the carpet that saysblackburn63 said:
Ah you put that up while I was typing. The pb Tories will brush it under the carpet regardless.runnymede said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12083557/We-cant-stick-with-the-status-quo-on-the-EU-because-there-isnt-one.html
Dan Hannan spot on again in this article
I voted for David Cameron as Conservative leader and think that he has done a fine job as Prime Minister. The country is in a better place than it was when he took over.
The article points out quite clearly the reasons why we should leave the EU, of course you knew that and exactly as I predicted brushed it under the carpet.
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Is it safe for work? I don't want people losing their jobs because their boss catches them watching what they think is a spot of mild S&M.Scott_P said:@iAlexhunt: Watch: Hilary Benn says 'I haven't been muzzled' - https://t.co/DKvj2uegP8
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@CCHQPress: The appointment of Emily Thornberry as Shadow Defence Secretary confirms the Labour Party is a threat to our national security.0
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So I wonder how long the re-re-shuffle will take?0
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Good morning all. The only cure for Labour's woes is for the party to be repeatedly thrashed (not just beaten, thrashed) in a sequence of elections, culminating in 2020.Richard_Nabavi said:
You are certainly correct to say that the battle has to be taken to the unions and the membership, although I'm not sure you are right in your view that the Labour membership (plus now the Three Quidders) are not quite far to the left. Either way, the biggest problem is that the moderates haven't even started the work required to get the membership back into the real world. Even in the most optimistic scenario from the moderates' point of view, that's going to be a long, hard slog.SouthamObserver said:Broadly the same. There are not many Trots in this country, full stop. Labour is undoubtedly more left wing than it was, but it still has the capacity to be a broad church. The hard left is not only vile, it is also very bad at politics - as Corbyn, McDonnell etc are showing. In time they will be defeated again. That probably means at least nine more years of Tory rule, though. Moderates recognise that, I am sure. But there is no alternative strategy available. The membership (and, importantlt, the unions) is the battleground, not the country.
On the impact of the reshuffle specifically, it's shambolic Stalinism. It has strengthened the grip of the extremists on policy and will cement Corbyn in place more firmly. It will also have also weakened his standing even further in the country at large. I remain of the view that Corbyn will last until 2020, and am betting accordingly.
Labour are exhibiting a mix of spinelessness and misplaced optimism that renders them unable to change until the electorate bellows rejection in their collective faces.
Of course, I could be wrong - the electorate might tire of the Tories and vote Corbyn in 2020. Oh my, had to wipe away the tears of laughter as I typed that last sentence.
PS Dan Hannan hits the mark with his EU article, as ever.0 -
Mr. Wanderer, when Cameron started as leader, he had a party of just over 200 MPs and was facing a three time election-winning Labour leader.
Now he has an outright majority, and the Labour Party is about 100 seats and 60 years behind him. He's perhaps regretting saying he'd go, or perhaps he feels more comfortable doing so, given the next Conservative leader should win (unlike when Blair left).0 -
England now 4 down in the cricket....we really really could lose this.0
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https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/684661133547016192
More likely now I should think... probably either still writing their speeches or bottling it.0 -
You're absolutely correct but I'm referring to the sparring that occurs here and elsewhere, the Tories on here have been basking in a peculiar reflected glory since May, it won't always be like that.Tissue_Price said:
I know you're not Labour, but it is a mistake to see ebb & flow as inevitable. Labour might well just ebb & ebb. Eventually, of course, something will oppose the Conservatives, but it might take a long time.blackburn63 said:I totally understand why the pb Tories are enjoying the Labour farce but please don't rest easy, the inevitable political ebb and flow is coming your way soon. Dan Hannan confirms what a couple of us on here have been saying for a while, a vote to a Remain is not for the status quo it's a whole new level of involvement.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12083557/We-cant-stick-with-the-status-quo-on-the-EU-because-there-isnt-one.html
The press will tire of Corbyn once the Tories start fighting, they defer to nobody in their ability to have a good in house ruck. Villiers and Grayling have got the ball rolling, no big deal, if Gove and May join in Dave's in big trouble, he'll be in the bunker with Osborne and not many others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_(Japan)
Dave has built the referendum up into a vote on his premiership. Of course it's odds on that he'll be crowned, but my word if Leave wins the fallout on here will be catatonic, one or two will be put on suicide watch.
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Red Ken will be pleased.Pauly said:https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/684661133547016192
More likely now I should think... probably either still writing their speeches or bottling it.0 -
As others have said, they should be co-ordinating things so that it happens once per hour all the way through the day.Pauly said:https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/684661133547016192
More likely now I should think... probably either still writing their speeches or bottling it.
That way, the media is paying maximum attention0 -
Mr. 63, Cameron absolutely hasn't done that.
It can hardly be a confidence matter if the Cabinet has a free vote. And he's going whatever happens.0 -
Might Grayling end up leading the Conservative Leave campaign?
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/01/might-grayling-end-up-leading-the-conservative-leave-campaign.html
If that ends up happening, pile your money on Remain....0 -
All kicking off in Labour now - popcorn time!0
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@paulwaugh: I'm told there will be at least four front bench Labour resignations today0
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@paulwaugh: I'm told there will be at least four front bench Labour resignations today
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Mr. Urquhart, .....
Grayling should be locked in the same shed as Farage.0 -
Conspiracy Theory: Corbyn and McMao have shares in the popcorn industry. Only remotely rational explanation since his name made it onto the ballot.0
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Not enough to cause real damage. But fun to watch nonethelessScott_P said:@paulwaugh: I'm told there will be at least four front bench Labour resignations today
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Dugher’s also the kind of MP a middle-class north London leftie can’t afford to dispatch so crudely. First, voters may notice, especially in Dugher’s native South Yorkshire where sensibilities are attuned to slights and respect for Islington politics is not as great as Islington’s sense of entitlement expects.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2016/jan/06/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-reshuffle
Second, he’s a trade union toughie, now 40 and an MP only since 2010, one who understands machine politics and the dark arts better than the over-educated armchair revolutionaries at the leader’s elbow.0 -
Cameron might actually start to wonder a bit now....Scott_P said:@paulwaugh: I'm told there will be at least four front bench Labour resignations today
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Yipee!Floater said:All kicking off in Labour now - popcorn time!
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Here is the problem in a nutshell. JC is a class-A hypocrite:
Sophy Ridge @SophyRidgeSky 33m33 minutes ago
Pat McFadden - accused of disloyalty - tells me he has never voted against the Labour whip. (Corbyn has voted against whip over 500 times.)0 -
Reynolds writes in his resignation letter that ‘I cannot in good conscience endorse the world view of the Stop the War Coalition, who I believe to be fundamentally wrong in their assessment and understanding of the threats the UK faces. The security and well-being of my constituents must always be my first consideration and I therefore believe my colleague Pat McFadden was right to condemn those who would to any degree absolve ISIS for their actions following the atrocities in Paris’.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/first-labour-frontbencher-resigns-in-protest-at-corbyns-reshuffle/
Reynolds leaving the frontbench is not a great shock to the Corbyn camp, and even though there are more junior ministerial resignations expected, those will most likely not have a seismic effect on Corbyn’s hold on power. Unless the Shadow Cabinet were to resign en masse – which they now won’t do because Hilary Benn and Rosie Winterton remain in place and Maria Eagle has not been sacked but sent to her ‘dream job’ (according to John McDonnell) – Corbyn will be able to continue in Parliament much as he did before, just with a few different faces on the frontbench.0 -
Dan is always one of the most persusive and reasonable advocates for leaving the EU, so it's no surprise that this article puts the case well. Even so, it still leaves a huge void: even if you accept everything he says, the EU will still be there. The structural problems of the Euro, for example, won't disappear if we leave, and will still have a big effect on our economy.John_M said:PS Dan Hannan hits the mark with his EU article, as ever.
The key bit, to my mind, is this:
An MP friend who is campaigning to remain in told me: “It’s like banks. Everyone moans about their bank; but they hardly ever bother to move their accounts.”
That is very true, and yet even Dan is moaning about the current bank without telling us what alternative account we should switch to.0 -
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Mr Dancer I think you underestimate the ego of politicians, most especially PMs. Dave will see an Out vote as complete humiliation, hounded out of office because of a referendum he never wanted.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 63, Cameron absolutely hasn't done that.
It can hardly be a confidence matter if the Cabinet has a free vote. And he's going whatever happens.
I maintain he should be ok, but I'm far less certain than I was 6 months ago, who knows what may happen between now and the vote itself, the date of which Dave is dithering over.
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As predicted:
CCHQ Press Office
@CCHQPress
The appointment of Emily Thornberry as Shadow Defence Secretary confirms the Labour Party is a threat to our national security.0 -
Surely one will be Andy Burnham. That fine, upstanding man of principle whose campaign manager was sacked yesterday. Incredible he has not gone already really.Scott_P said:@paulwaugh: I'm told there will be at least four front bench Labour resignations today
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Michael White:
But Dugher’s also the kind of MP a middle-class north London leftie can’t afford to dispatch so crudely. First, voters may notice, especially in Dugher’s native South Yorkshire where sensibilities are attuned to slights and respect for Islington politics is not as great as Islington’s sense of entitlement expects.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2016/jan/06/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-reshuffle0 -
Front bench or junior shadows ?CarlottaVance said:@paulwaugh: I'm told there will be at least four front bench Labour resignations today
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Perhaps these people need the money? Why else be involved in this insanity?DavidL said:
Surely one will be Andy Burnham. That fine, upstanding man of principle whose campaign manager was sacked yesterday. Incredible he has not gone already really.Scott_P said:@paulwaugh: I'm told there will be at least four front bench Labour resignations today
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Mr. 63, I agree a Leave vote would be seen as a failure for Cameron, but people won't be voting Leave or Remain (mostly) to kick Cameron or laud him. It'll be about the EU.0
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If corbyn so clearly convinced the stop the war world view is what the voters want, he should welcome these resignations0
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Not wearing a helmet.Scott_P said:0 -
What did I say on Sunday. Tories will keep on banging on about National Security until 2020.rottenborough said:As predicted:
CCHQ Press Office
@CCHQPress
The appointment of Emily Thornberry as Shadow Defence Secretary confirms the Labour Party is a threat to our national security.0 -
Dithering = Forever putting off the reporting of supposed voting irregularities, and 'loosened' wheel nuts to the police.blackburn63 said:
Mr Dancer I think you underestimate the ego of politicians, most especially PMs. Dave will see an Out vote as complete humiliation, hounded out of office because of a referendum he never wanted.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 63, Cameron absolutely hasn't done that.
It can hardly be a confidence matter if the Cabinet has a free vote. And he's going whatever happens.
I maintain he should be ok, but I'm far less certain than I was 6 months ago, who knows what may happen between now and the vote itself, the date of which Dave is dithering over.0 -
That remains to be seen – the whole reshuffle kafuffle has been a car crash in slow-mo.Floater said:All kicking off in Labour now - popcorn time!
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It is part of their long term plan....TheScreamingEagles said:
What did I say on Sunday. Tories will keep on about banging on National Security until 2020.rottenborough said:As predicted:
CCHQ Press Office
@CCHQPress
The appointment of Emily Thornberry as Shadow Defence Secretary confirms the Labour Party is a threat to our national security.0 -
He goes on to say there may not be another bank to go to and we should make arrangements now. You were quite selective in your quote, may I say.Richard_Nabavi said:
Dan is always one of the most persusive and reasonable advocates for leaving the EU, so it's no surprise that this article puts the case well. Even so, it still leaves a huge void: even if you accept everything he says, the EU will still be there. The structural problems of the Euro, for example, won't disappear if we leave, and will still have a big effect on our economy.John_M said:PS Dan Hannan hits the mark with his EU article, as ever.
The key bit, to my mind, is this:
An MP friend who is campaigning to remain in told me: “It’s like banks. Everyone moans about their bank; but they hardly ever bother to move their accounts.”
That is very true, and yet even Dan is moaning about the current bank without telling us what alternative account we should switch to.
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It should be "Look upon this threat to national security, ye voters, and despair!".Scott_P said:0 -
North Korea and their new nuke just are beyond satire here.
No situation is improbable.rottenborough said:As predicted:
CCHQ Press Office
@CCHQPress
The appointment of Emily Thornberry as Shadow Defence Secretary confirms the Labour Party is a threat to our national security.0 -
Do they actually get money for being shadows other than LOTO? I don't think they do. They get staff and SPADs so they can employ their pals when in cabinet positions but I don't think they get paid.rottenborough said:
Perhaps these people need the money? Why else be involved in this insanity?DavidL said:
Surely one will be Andy Burnham. That fine, upstanding man of principle whose campaign manager was sacked yesterday. Incredible he has not gone already really.Scott_P said:@paulwaugh: I'm told there will be at least four front bench Labour resignations today
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Mr. StClare, it's more like when the super class star destroyer plunged into the second Death Star.0
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Yep. Astonishing you can only get around 9/1 on Corbyn being PM.TheScreamingEagles said:
What did I say on Sunday. Tories will keep on banging on about National Security until 2020.rottenborough said:As predicted:
CCHQ Press Office
@CCHQPress
The appointment of Emily Thornberry as Shadow Defence Secretary confirms the Labour Party is a threat to our national security.0 -
I take your point Richard. My great worry is that a UK 'remain' vote will be seen as assent for whatever the hell the Federalists want to do.Richard_Nabavi said:
Dan is always one of the most persusive and reasonable advocates for leaving the EU, so it's no surprise that this article puts the case well. Even so, it still leaves a huge void: even if you accept everything he says, the EU will still be there. The structural problems of the Euro, for example, won't disappear if we leave, and will still have a big effect on our economy.John_M said:PS Dan Hannan hits the mark with his EU article, as ever.
The key bit, to my mind, is this:
An MP friend who is campaigning to remain in told me: “It’s like banks. Everyone moans about their bank; but they hardly ever bother to move their accounts.”
That is very true, and yet even Dan is moaning about the current bank without telling us what alternative account we should switch to.
My consolation is that we can take a leaf out of the SNP's playbook and redefine 'generation' to mean 'a short, but indeterminate length of time'. We don't have to just have one referendum.0 -
Only LOTO and the chief whip get paid.DavidL said:
Do they actually get money for being shadows other than LOTO? I don't think they do. They get staff and SPADs so they can employ their pals when in cabinet positions but I don't think they get paid.rottenborough said:
Perhaps these people need the money? Why else be involved in this insanity?DavidL said:
Surely one will be Andy Burnham. That fine, upstanding man of principle whose campaign manager was sacked yesterday. Incredible he has not gone already really.Scott_P said:@paulwaugh: I'm told there will be at least four front bench Labour resignations today
Also, has SPAD selection not been centralised?0 -
Consistent with her lack of belief in defence?rottenborough said:
Not wearing a helmet.Scott_P said:0 -
I need to go to an optician, I can't see anywhere in that article where he says that "there may not be another bank to go to ", but even if he did, what on earth has that got to do with my point?blackburn63 said:He goes on to say there may not be another bank to go to and we should make arrangements now. You were quite selective in your quote, may I say.
As for being selective in my quotation, I picked out what I thought was the key difficulty which the Leave side have to address. I recommend reading the whole article, of course.0 -
There was talk of that but I don't think it has happened yet.Wanderer said:
Only LOTO and the chief whip get paid.DavidL said:
Do they actually get money for being shadows other than LOTO? I don't think they do. They get staff and SPADs so they can employ their pals when in cabinet positions but I don't think they get paid.rottenborough said:
Perhaps these people need the money? Why else be involved in this insanity?DavidL said:
Surely one will be Andy Burnham. That fine, upstanding man of principle whose campaign manager was sacked yesterday. Incredible he has not gone already really.Scott_P said:@paulwaugh: I'm told there will be at least four front bench Labour resignations today
Also, has SPAD selection not been centralised?0 -
Until recently I agreed with you but reading the comments on here about Farage the referendum is becoming a strange animal. As I pointed out previously,nth vote is "meh" to many, there's a chance that labour voters will take the opportunity of giving Cameron a kicking.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 63, I agree a Leave vote would be seen as a failure for Cameron, but people won't be voting Leave or Remain (mostly) to kick Cameron or laud him. It'll be about the EU.
Labour hatred of the Tories far greater than their love of the EU.
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I clearly hit the spot there for you to deflect it to a non story about Farage.watford30 said:
Dithering = Forever putting off the reporting of supposed voting irregularities, and 'loosened' wheel nuts to the police.blackburn63 said:
Mr Dancer I think you underestimate the ego of politicians, most especially PMs. Dave will see an Out vote as complete humiliation, hounded out of office because of a referendum he never wanted.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 63, Cameron absolutely hasn't done that.
It can hardly be a confidence matter if the Cabinet has a free vote. And he's going whatever happens.
I maintain he should be ok, but I'm far less certain than I was 6 months ago, who knows what may happen between now and the vote itself, the date of which Dave is dithering over.
It seems the Dithering Dave meme has legs judging by the defensive response.
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Just as well it was 'only a bonus':
Oil Falls to 11 Year Low
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-oil-idUSKBN0UK04C201601060 -
But "remainers" cant tell us what services and rates the bank we are in will be demanding in 3 years time and if we stay we are locked in for another 30 years.Richard_Nabavi said:
I need to go to an optician, I can't see anywhere in that article where he says that "there may not be another bank to go to ", but even if he did, what on earth has that got to do with my point?blackburn63 said:He goes on to say there may not be another bank to go to and we should make arrangements now. You were quite selective in your quote, may I say.
As for being selective in my quotation, I picked out what I thought was the key difficulty which the Leave side have to address. I recommend reading the whole article, of course.
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Yes, absolutely, and that was a point I made repeatedly well before the 2010 election, when the Kipperish tendency were laying into Cameron for not promising an immediate referendum.John_M said:I take your point Richard. My great worry is that a UK 'remain' vote will be seen as assent for whatever the hell the Federalists want to do.
We'll have to wait and see exactly what the renegotiation brings, but if there is some sort of formal recognition of the structural divide between the Eurozone and non-Eurozone countries, I can see a possible way forward whereby our EU friends get into the habit of concentrating their ever-closer union on the core Eurozone with the UK seen as on the periphery.0
