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That'll kill Scottish nationalism stone dead.TheScreamingEagles said:George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
http://bit.ly/1NEvTbb0 -
That post you and I replied to was one of those wonderful occasions where both the point made and the premise of the point are groundless.Luckyguy1983 said:
Why would it? As long as we have enough nurses, I don't see the issue.The_Apocalypse said:
But why are 'maternal' jobs seen as female domain? It would be great to get more men into professions like nursing, for example.Mortimer said:
Really? It is a job that seems to appeal more to women. So what? I'm not going to go and burn my best about it.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I do actually.Mortimer said:
Do you think it strange there are more female vets than male vets?The_Apocalypse said:
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.Mortimer said:
Who said anything about talent?The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?0 -
Yes, I said it that way because you were implying that women trusted women officers more than men (etc.). I was questioning why you thought that. I never said they should trust white male officers (etc.) more.The_Apocalypse said:
This was what you said to me previously:RobD said:
I didn't say anything about trusting them more, just at the same level as officers of their own gender/minority.
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man?
If I misinterpreted this I apologise, but the word more relative to women and minorities was used twice.0 -
Cameron Borthwick Jackson, sounds like a rugger player or a tory M.P.0
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I see Cameron has refused to say he wouldn't ban Trump from entering Britain (presumably using the ban on hate preachers and all that) - says it's hypothetical for now as Trump will be busy.Scott_P said:@kevwodonnell: The White House have said that Trump's racist comments on Muslims entering America "disqualify him from being President".
@Otto_English: I for one admire @realDonaldTrump 's stand on extremism. You'd never see him mixing with um.. er ... oh... oh dear https://t.co/Xs9tMJDf7n
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@NickPalmer Oliver Letwin?! Really? I would say I've thought many things of Letwin but gentle and open minded is not one of them, I'm afraid. I actually haven't heard of Fabian Hamilton. So there's someone to google, I guess?
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.0 -
Nonsense.The_Apocalypse said:
Actually, it was police racism which did that.ThreeQuidder said:
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.0 -
If you've not been there before:RobD said:O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other
2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula
3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around.
4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental
5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese.
6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung.
7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.0 -
@bpolitics: 68% of Trump supporters would back him in a third-party run, a new poll finds https://t.co/rxEnndCQFQ https://t.co/pBYipIQAag
@OliverCooper: 68% of 30% (GOP voters that back Trump) of 50% (GOP voters) = 10%. Even Perot won 19%, so knock yourself out, Don. https://t.co/ds4NqGnvJH0 -
Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
Thanks! Should be arriving at about 10am, but never too early for option 7...TOPPING said:
If you've not been there before:RobD said:O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other
2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula
3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around.
4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental
5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese.
6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung.
7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.
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I don't think women trust female officers more (unless its on issues of rape, sexual assault). The inclusion of women into the conversation was more on representation in relation to the overall population. I'm sorry if I did not make it clear. I'm aware you don't believe that they should trust white male officers more, don't worry that was not how I perceived your question!RobD said:
Yes, I said it that way because you were implying that women trusted women officers more than men (etc.). I was questioning why you thought that. I never said they should trust white male officers (etc.) more.The_Apocalypse said:
This was what you said to me previously:RobD said:
I didn't say anything about trusting them more, just at the same level as officers of their own gender/minority.
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man?
If I misinterpreted this I apologise, but the word more relative to women and minorities was used twice.0 -
It's not nonsense. The report that was released after the Lawrence case pretty much concluded that the police was institutionally racist. That is more that just a couple of police officers. I am not promoting the concept of the police being racist, nor am I am telling communities anything. I am simply arguing what many people feel, and what they have experienced. Those feelings, and experiences are a problem.ThreeQuidder said:
Nonsense.The_Apocalypse said:
Actually, it was police racism which did that.ThreeQuidder said:
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.0 -
Perhaps they're not joining the profession because they are being 'forced' by 'gender roles', perhaps they're just doing it because they want to, and they don't need you to patronise them and tell them their decision is somehow backward, or worse still take some sort of ham-fisted 'action' to try and address the non-existent problem.The_Apocalypse said:@NickPalmer Oliver Letwin?! Really? I would say I've thought many things of Letwin but gentle and open minded is not one of them, I'm afraid. I actually haven't heard of Fabian Hamilton. So there's someone to google, I guess?
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.0 -
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
Quite. Utterly mad.Mortimer said:
That post you and I replied to was one of those wonderful occasions where both the point made and the premise of the point are groundless.Luckyguy1983 said:
Why would it? As long as we have enough nurses, I don't see the issue.The_Apocalypse said:
But why are 'maternal' jobs seen as female domain? It would be great to get more men into professions like nursing, for example.Mortimer said:
Really? It is a job that seems to appeal more to women. So what? I'm not going to go and burn my best about it.The_Apocalypse said:
Yes, I do actually.Mortimer said:
Do you think it strange there are more female vets than male vets?The_Apocalypse said:
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.Mortimer said:
Who said anything about talent?The_Apocalypse said:
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?Mortimer said:
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...The_Apocalypse said:
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.Mortimer said:Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.taffys said:''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?0 -
As always, go to the Felix bar at The Peninsula and make sure you go to the gents. Best view you'll ever have while pissing the night away.RobD said:
Thanks! Should be arriving at about 10am, but never too early for option 7...TOPPING said:
If you've not been there before:RobD said:O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other
2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula
3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around.
4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental
5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese.
6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung.
7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.0 -
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
I never said they were 'forced' nor am I patronising them. Gender roles are something people are socialised into for the most part. I never said that their decision was backward either. These are all strawman arguments. Nor do I believe that the problem is non-existent. I believe gender roles are huge problem within our society.Luckyguy1983 said:
Perhaps they're not joining the profession because they are being 'forced' by 'gender roles', perhaps they're just doing it because they want to, and they don't need you to patronise them and tell them their decision is somehow backward, or worse still take some sort of ham-fisted 'action' to try and address the non-existent problem.The_Apocalypse said:@NickPalmer Oliver Letwin?! Really? I would say I've thought many things of Letwin but gentle and open minded is not one of them, I'm afraid. I actually haven't heard of Fabian Hamilton. So there's someone to google, I guess?
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.0 -
You'll fit right in!!RobD said:
Thanks! Should be arriving at about 10am, but never too early for option 7...TOPPING said:
If you've not been there before:RobD said:O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other
2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula
3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around.
4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental
5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese.
6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung.
7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.
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I don't want quotas, I've never argued for more quotas. But I am glad that you agree there should be moreRobD said:
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back?? 0 -
If we are going to do the pedantic stakes...Conservative opposition...they are in government and hold the Mayor...opposition?volcanopete said:Jim Waterson @jimwaterson 4h4 hours ago
Conservative opposition research fail shocker as it's revealed that Chicken Shop sells "free range rotisserie chicken", not fried chicken.0 -
All of the police were historically racist?The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.MP_SE said:
All of the police were historically racist?The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
Paris attacks 'ringleader' Abdelhamid Abaaoud evaded Athens police
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-350441820 -
Yes, that's what I'm objecting to.The_Apocalypse said:
It's not nonsense. The report that was released after the Lawrence case pretty much concluded that the police was institutionally racist.ThreeQuidder said:
Nonsense.The_Apocalypse said:
Actually, it was police racism which did that.ThreeQuidder said:
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
0 -
As ever, the biggest disagreements are about the most minor points.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't want quotas, I've never argued for more quotas. But I am glad that you agree there should be moreRobD said:
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Most of us here want better policemen, and would love it if they were more representative of society. But for most of us here, the first is far more important than the latter. Merit trumps identity.
Incidentally, I'd argue that if this policy were adopted and encouraged for both those in powerful rules and those whom they interact with, we'd probably have better relations between human beings.0 -
Plenty of the police were historically racist; plenty of people were historically racist.MP_SE said:
All of the police were historically racist?The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
And you think they should be racist in the present.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
Tyson Fury: Police investigate complaint of hate crime
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35046629
FFS..0 -
Somewhat comforting that they were already being targeted prior to the attacks in Paris.FrancisUrquhart said:Paris attacks 'ringleader' Abdelhamid Abaaoud evaded Athens police
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-350441820 -
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.Philip_Thompson said:
And you think they should be racist in the present.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?0 -
Interesting - we have heard of the magnificent seven attacks foiled here. I'm sure it was as hair's breadth as in this instance the difference between success and failure.RobD said:
Somewhat comforting that they were already being targeted prior to the attacks in Paris.FrancisUrquhart said:Paris attacks 'ringleader' Abdelhamid Abaaoud evaded Athens police
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35044182
They've only got to be lucky once....0 -
Chicken shops. Clever.0
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Thank god he didn't say anything about PB Tories. We are world-renowned whiners.FrancisUrquhart said:Tyson Fury: Police investigate complaint of hate crime
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35046629
FFS..0 -
So second generation immigrants that have failed to assimilate, and lived in segregated ghettoes are the common factor in almost all recent terrorist acts, inspired by the hatred of, and desire to overthrow the country of their birthFrancisUrquhart said:Paris attacks 'ringleader' Abdelhamid Abaaoud evaded Athens police
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35044182
Who would have thought it?
We must be, mad0 -
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.ThreeQuidder said:
Nonsense.The_Apocalypse said:
Actually, it was police racism which did that.ThreeQuidder said:
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.0 -
Crikey is Wan Chai still going as an area for naughty pleasures? Even if it is I bet it is a lot more restrained than in my day. That said my favourite Hong Kong knocking shop was the 747 Club and that was Kowloonside.TOPPING said:
If you've not been there before:RobD said:O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other
2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula
3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around.
4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental
5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese.
6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung.
7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.
Even so the Hotel Lisboa and the Estoril (from where I was once slung out for singing Jersusalem at the bar) both in Macau were, unless one was seriously spending money, better than anywhere in Hong Kong.0 -
Oliver's lovely - I even invited him to my wedding. He's the only front-bencher on either side who I've known to admit in committee (quite often) being persuaded by an argument that something he said was wrong. He's a bit other-worldly - the occasion when he was burgled by a stranger who he let in at 6am to use the loo is entirely in character.But in a house full of tough-minded schemers (among whom I would someimes include myself), that's a nice change.The_Apocalypse said:@NickPalmer Oliver Letwin?! Really? I would say I've thought many things of Letwin but gentle and open minded is not one of them, I'm afraid. I actually haven't heard of Fabian Hamilton. So there's someone to google, I guess?
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.
Fabian is described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Hamilton - he holds Cyclefree views on positive discrimination and perhaps other things too. But irrespective of whether you agree with him, basically he's just a really nice guy.0 -
PBMODERATOR: Please could someone edit the long block of zzzzzs in the post at 8:08pm? On an iPad it is breaking the sites format by being too wide making the site very unpleasant to browse.0
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Sounds reasonable enough.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
Have you tried accessing from http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussionsPhilip_Thompson said:PBMODERATOR: Please could someone edit the long block of zzzzzs in the post at 8:08pm? On an iPad it is breaking the sites format by being too wide making the site very unpleasant to browse.
That may solve the problem while it is still on the first page of comments.
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Donald would have a fair shot at topping 10% as a third party candidate, depending on who the GOP chose.Scott_P said:@bpolitics: 68% of Trump supporters would back him in a third-party run, a new poll finds https://t.co/rxEnndCQFQ https://t.co/pBYipIQAag
@OliverCooper: 68% of 30% (GOP voters that back Trump) of 50% (GOP voters) = 10%. Even Perot won 19%, so knock yourself out, Don. https://t.co/ds4NqGnvJH0 -
Thank you!RobD said:
Have you tried accessing from http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussionsPhilip_Thompson said:PBMODERATOR: Please could someone edit the long block of zzzzzs in the post at 8:08pm? On an iPad it is breaking the sites format by being too wide making the site very unpleasant to browse.
That may solve the problem while it is still on the first page of comments.0 -
I can't speak for The Apocalypse, but for me, it is not the case that I would prefer police to be more representative of society INSTEAD of having better policemen. My point is that, in my view, the police cannot be effective at upholding the law if huge chunks of the local population have no confidence in them, and that huge chunks of the local population will not have confidence in them while they don't see "themselves" represented by the police.Mortimer said:
As ever, the biggest disagreements are about the most minor points.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't want quotas, I've never argued for more quotas. But I am glad that you agree there should be moreRobD said:
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Most of us here want better policemen, and would love it if they were more representative of society. But for most of us here, the first is far more important than the latter. Merit trumps identity.
You may disagree that more ethnic diversity in the police is a pre-requisite for the police to be effective, which is obviously a legitimate point of view. But please stop misrepresenting my view as being about "identity trumping merit".0 -
Hmm 12 hours..... I know a long prog on BBC Iplayer.... may 2015 or so I think it was onRobD said:O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
O/T Hartson is a terrible pundit on R5. Clicheclock0 -
Merit should indeed trump identity in an idealogical utopia, but in reality the bar to being a policeman is so low as to be practically subterranean. Having spent a few weeks on jury service, I can say with 100% conviction (ha ha) that a high proportion of beat bobbies are as thick as two short planks.Mortimer said:
As ever, the biggest disagreements are about the most minor points.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't want quotas, I've never argued for more quotas. But I am glad that you agree there should be moreRobD said:
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Most of us here want better policemen, and would love it if they were more representative of society. But for most of us here, the first is far more important than the latter. Merit trumps identity.
Incidentally, I'd argue that if this policy were adopted and encouraged for both those in powerful rules and those whom they interact with, we'd probably have better relations between human beings.0 -
I'll refer you to my post at 8:33.The_Apocalypse said:
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.Philip_Thompson said:
And you think they should be racist in the present.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?0 -
Should we have more criminals in the force? As having more criminals will make the force more like certain communities they need to deal with should they have more obese people?Danny565 said:
I can't speak for The Apocalypse, but for me, it is not the case that I would prefer police to be more representative of society INSTEAD of having better policemen. My point is that, in my view, the police cannot be effective at upholding the law if huge chunks of the local population have no confidence in them, and that huge chunks of the local population will not have confidence in them while they don't see "themselves" represented by the police.Mortimer said:
As ever, the biggest disagreements are about the most minor points.The_Apocalypse said:
I don't want quotas, I've never argued for more quotas. But I am glad that you agree there should be moreRobD said:
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Most of us here want better policemen, and would love it if they were more representative of society. But for most of us here, the first is far more important than the latter. Merit trumps identity.
You may disagree that more ethnic diversity in the police is a pre-requisite for the police to be effective, which is obviously a legitimate point of view. But please stop misrepresenting my view as being about "identity trumping merit".
I disagree with racism. Being racist in who you hire is wrong full stop. No ifs, no buts.0 -
I think the priority is getting the best policemen we can get. In an ideal world they should come from as diverse a range of backgrounds as the people they police and where that is clearly not the case, as in May's examples I think it is a warning sign. But the standard should not be reduced to resolve that issue. I would have fewer problems with specific incentives.0
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Wow. Well, I guess you only really see one side of political figures!NickPalmer said:
Oliver's lovely - I even invited him to my wedding. He's the only front-bencher on either side who I've known to admit in committee (quite often) being persuaded by an argument that something he said was wrong. He's a bit other-worldly - the occasion when he was burgled by a stranger who he let in at 6am to use the loo is entirely in character.But in a house full of tough-minded schemers (among whom I would someimes include myself), that's a nice change.The_Apocalypse said:@NickPalmer Oliver Letwin?! Really? I would say I've thought many things of Letwin but gentle and open minded is not one of them, I'm afraid. I actually haven't heard of Fabian Hamilton. So there's someone to google, I guess?
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.
Fabian is described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Hamilton - he holds Cyclefree views on positive discrimination and perhaps other things too. But irrespective of whether you agree with him, basically he's just a really nice guy.
Thanks for posting the article on Fabian Hamilton. He sounds like an interesting man, at the very least!0 -
Discrimination is never positive to the people being discriminated against.Anorak said:
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.ThreeQuidder said:
Nonsense.The_Apocalypse said:
Actually, it was police racism which did that.ThreeQuidder said:
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.0 -
And I've already replied to that. The report concluded otherwise. Why do you think that report was wrong?ThreeQuidder said:
I'll refer you to my post at 8:33.The_Apocalypse said:
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.Philip_Thompson said:
And you think they should be racist in the present.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?0 -
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.ThreeQuidder said:
Discrimination is never positive to the people being discriminated against.Anorak said:
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.ThreeQuidder said:
Nonsense.The_Apocalypse said:
Actually, it was police racism which did that.ThreeQuidder said:
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.0 -
You just asked that question. I've already answered it.The_Apocalypse said:
And I've already replied to that. The report concluded otherwise. Why do you think that report was wrong?ThreeQuidder said:
I'll refer you to my post at 8:33.The_Apocalypse said:
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.Philip_Thompson said:
And you think they should be racist in the present.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?0 -
Discrimination is never positive.ThreeQuidder said:
Discrimination is never positive to the people being discriminated against.Anorak said:
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.ThreeQuidder said:
Nonsense.The_Apocalypse said:
Actually, it was police racism which did that.ThreeQuidder said:
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.
Even the people being discriminated towards suffer due to it. If they were good enough to get the job anyways then they are tarnished unfairly with aspersions of only getting it due to their race which is doubly wrong. If they weren't good enough to get the job them there are surely reasons for that.0 -
I care about the next 50 years. I care about the damn fine policemen who will be delayed in entering the force, or possibly put off joining altogether, because of discrimination.Anorak said:
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.ThreeQuidder said:
Discrimination is never positive to the people being discriminated against.Anorak said:
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.ThreeQuidder said:
Nonsense.The_Apocalypse said:
Actually, it was police racism which did that.ThreeQuidder said:
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.
If discrimination was wrong then, it's still wrong now.0 -
Really? You haven't said why you think its' wrong, just that you think the report is wrong. But if you don't want to say anymore, that's fine.ThreeQuidder said:
You just asked that question. I've already answered it.The_Apocalypse said:
And I've already replied to that. The report concluded otherwise. Why do you think that report was wrong?ThreeQuidder said:
I'll refer you to my post at 8:33.The_Apocalypse said:
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.Philip_Thompson said:
And you think they should be racist in the present.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?0 -
Good point.Philip_Thompson said:
Discrimination is never positive.ThreeQuidder said:
Discrimination is never positive to the people being discriminated against.Anorak said:
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.ThreeQuidder said:
Nonsense.The_Apocalypse said:
Actually, it was police racism which did that.ThreeQuidder said:
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.The_Apocalypse said:
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.taffys said:think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.
Even the people being discriminated towards suffer due to it. If they were good enough to get the job anyways then they are tarnished unfairly with aspersions of only getting it due to their race which is doubly wrong. If they weren't good enough to get the job them there are surely reasons for that.0 -
If you don't understand my answer, it's still there for you to go and read it again. You can keep asking if you insist but the answer isn't going to change.The_Apocalypse said:
Really? You haven't said why you think its' wrong, just that you think the report is wrong. But if you don't want to say anymore, that's fine.ThreeQuidder said:
You just asked that question. I've already answered it.The_Apocalypse said:
And I've already replied to that. The report concluded otherwise. Why do you think that report was wrong?ThreeQuidder said:
I'll refer you to my post at 8:33.The_Apocalypse said:
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.Philip_Thompson said:
And you think they should be racist in the present.The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?0 -
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.Anorak said:Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
0 -
I can't wait to vote for Tyson as SPOTY. This is the kind of thing that brings the police into disrepute - though their hands are tied due to some extremely ill-thought through legislation.FrancisUrquhart said:Tyson Fury: Police investigate complaint of hate crime
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35046629
FFS..0 -
I fully acknowledge that there is a problem.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.Anorak said:Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
However, it seems to me that we have one example of trying to use positive discrimination as a remedy: in the Labour party with their considerable efforts to achieve a better gender balance.
To what extent, and in what ways, can we say that positive discrimination has helped remedy the fundamental problem?
It also seems to me that the answer is: not very much, sadly.0 -
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.The_Apocalypse said:
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.MP_SE said:
All of the police were historically racist?The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
man U going through despite being shite....
edit
oh no they aren't, PSV equalise.0 -
Awesome...
@ExcelPope: From Britain First's legal team, can America legally prevent Muslims entering the country? https://t.co/9f2G7fH7Qd0 -
Indeed, and perhaps one should also remember that racism is something that is practiced (if that is the right word) by people in most if not all ethnic groups. The then "Chair" of the Sussex Police Black Police Association once said in my hearing of a proposal to attract more ethnic Chinese recruits, "Fuck them, they don't matter".Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.Anorak said:Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
0 -
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I'm well aware of how big a problem trust in the police is for some communities. While I was still qualifying as a lawyer I did voluntary legal work for the North Ken Law Centre - Notting HIll/Ladbroke Grove before they became famous and trendy - and most of the clients were young black men, usually mixed race with one West Indian parent, often in care, and generally involved in drugs and muggings. They had done bad things but were not the worst guys I've met: lost souls largely, suffering from poor parenting, rubbish education. falling into gangs, but could be individually charming and deserved better. The police had to deal with them and their crimes over and over again and being a victim of their crimes was no fun. It was not a surprise that the police tended to take a jaundiced view of young black men nor that they, in their turn, had a jaundiced view of authority figures. They largely needed a father and some consistent and loving boundaries and discipline.The_Apocalypse said:
It's far natural to be able to identify with someone of a similar background to yours that to instinctively judge someone based on negative racial stereotypes. Those two comparisons are completely mismatched. The police are not there to make a community feel good, you are right. But it is important that communities feel they have trust in the police. Because that helps the police to do their jobs. If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law. Not in the least because it means if people cannot trust the police, they do not feel they police are making them feel safe and secure. It is not about the police not dealing with people because they are 'like them'. That's certainly something I've never said or proposed. Whether many on PB like or not, the issue of communities not trusting the police is a big one, and far more complex than your last paragraph suggests.Cyclefree said:
But the way for the police to earn trust is to behave well. Actions speak louder than words. And they speak even more loudly than simple appearances.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.
0 -
crazy crazy football0
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I was responding to a post where making the community feel good was exactly the reason why the police had to represent them. Wrong on so many levels. The only "side" the police should be on is that of the law-abiding.Danny565 said:
Straw-men galore. No-one's saying this is about "making the community feel good": it's about the practical point of the police being effective, and in my view they can only be effective if the majority of the law-abiding public has confidence that the police are "on their side".Cyclefree said:
The police are not there to make a community feel good. They are there to make the people they police feel safe and secure. They are then to make them feel that when bad stuff happens they will react quickly and decisively and effectively. They want the police not to hold off dealing with bad people because they are like them and the police value being liked over enforcing the law and keeping the peace. They want them not to hold off because the police are scared of being accused of racism, which has stupidly been elevated - for a non-Christian country, we are now told - into The Original Mortal Sin, or islamophobia or any of the other phobias and isms we are told to tiptoe around. They do not want the police being scared to investigate matters because of some cultural, religious or other sensitivity. They want the police to do their job, for God's sake.
As I said earlier, I don't think this should be done for most professions: if someone of a certain race/sexuality doesn't feel like the staff at the local Tesco represents them, then it's not the end of the world. It's precisely because the police are so essential to any country that, IMO, an exception on this should be made for them.0 -
Jeez, I'm glad I haven't bet on tonight's matches/ManU to qualify
I'd have gone mad trying to keep up.
0 -
Welcome to Thursday Football.0
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Is that a surprise. If we institutionalise racism like Apocalpyse wants then why should that racism have no nastiness there is no good form of racism we need to say no to all racism not hey we like this racism and we dislike that racism.HurstLlama said:
Indeed, and perhaps one should also remember that racism is something that is practiced (if that is the right word) by people in most if not all ethnic groups. The then "Chair" of the Sussex Police Black Police Association once said in my hearing of a proposal to attract more ethnic Chinese recruits, "Fuck them, they don't matter".Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.Anorak said:Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
0 -
Bit of a change of subject,
But for those who remember the discussion about the Universal Basic Income, a few days ago there is an interesting article on CapX today:
http://www.capx.co/julia-hartley-a-basic-income/0 -
I would never want to get a job because of the colour of my skin, or my supposed religion.Philip_Thompson said:
Is that a surprise. If we institutionalise racism like Apocalpyse wants then why should that racism have no nastiness there is no good form of racism we need to say no to all racism not hey we like this racism and we dislike that racism.HurstLlama said:
Indeed, and perhaps one should also remember that racism is something that is practiced (if that is the right word) by people in most if not all ethnic groups. The then "Chair" of the Sussex Police Black Police Association once said in my hearing of a proposal to attract more ethnic Chinese recruits, "Fuck them, they don't matter".Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.Anorak said:Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
I'm glad of the three jobs I've had in my life, it was all down to the fact I was the best candidate for the job.
Amusing that we're discussing this on the fiftieth anniversary of the race relations act coming into force.0 -
Well that has cheered me up- Utd going out.
On topic Sadiq Khan is going to win- absolutely no brainer. Mikes 50-1 is safe as the proverbial. And I still have never lost on a political bet. I don't quite know how the Tories will begin to attack him, so going for his flip floppery on fried chicken presents their high water mark. Perhaps they can go for Corbyn's trackie suit bottoms to gain some traction.0 -
I do not want to institutionalise racism. That is a misrepresentation of my argument. I have not even argued for positive discrimination, or quotas.
@Sean_F No, that is the incompetent of the police that is to blame. And most likely some sexist attitudes towards the victims ass well.
On being a 'victim' of their crimes, as I said previously young black people, are as much victims of crimes as they are criminals. If we stereotype them as criminals, we need to also stereotype them as victims. In regard to the overall argument, I think @Anorak makes a very a good argument indeed.Cyclefree said:I'm well aware of how big a problem trust in the police is for some communities. While I was still qualifying as a lawyer I did voluntary legal work for the North Ken Law Centre - Notting HIll/Ladbroke Grove before they became famous and trendy - and most of the clients were young black men, usually mixed race with one West Indian parent, often in care, and generally involved in drugs and muggings. They had done bad things but were not the worst guys I've met: lost souls largely, suffering from poor parenting, rubbish education. falling into gangs, but could be individually charming and deserved better. The police had to deal with them and their crimes over and over again and being a victim of their crimes was no fun. It was not a surprise that the police tended to take a jaundiced view of young black men nor that they, in their turn, had a jaundiced view of authority figures. They largely needed a father and some consistent and loving boundaries and discipline.
But the way for the police to earn trust is to behave well. Actions speak louder than words. And they speak even more loudly than simple appearances.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.0 -
Well saidPhilip_Thompson said:
Is that a surprise. If we institutionalise racism like Apocalpyse wants then why should that racism have no nastiness there is no good form of racism we need to say no to all racism not hey we like this racism and we dislike that racism.HurstLlama said:
Indeed, and perhaps one should also remember that racism is something that is practiced (if that is the right word) by people in most if not all ethnic groups. The then "Chair" of the Sussex Police Black Police Association once said in my hearing of a proposal to attract more ethnic Chinese recruits, "Fuck them, they don't matter".Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.Anorak said:Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
Eurosceptics say it about the EU, but it does seem that the ultra left remedy for racism is "more racism"
How can a persons first principles be that it is wrong to discriminate on skin colour, and then do just that themselves?
Imbeciles0 -
As my old ma used to say,pride comes before a fall.FrancisUrquhart said:
If we are going to do the pedantic stakes...Conservative opposition...they are in government and hold the Mayor...opposition?volcanopete said:Jim Waterson @jimwaterson 4h4 hours ago
Conservative opposition research fail shocker as it's revealed that Chicken Shop sells "free range rotisserie chicken", not fried chicken.0 -
Being wise before after the event, what a shame the Cons didn't ask Shaun Bailey to stand instead of some OE up his own arse entitled green nob.0
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Should have gone for Sol CampbellTOPPING said:Being wise before after the event, what a shame the Cons didn't ask Shaun Bailey to stand instead of some OE up his own arse entitled green nob.
0 -
OFT but United......LOL. Too busy laughing at Arsenal going out (most likely tomorrow night) to see that they were also vulnerable to the same fate.0
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God no, he's beyond awful.TheScreamingEagles said:
Should have gone for Sol CampbellTOPPING said:Being wise before after the event, what a shame the Cons didn't ask Shaun Bailey to stand instead of some OE up his own arse entitled green nob.
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If London had Parmo shops instead of Fried Chicken shops it would be a better place.0
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Or would you have preferred Ainsley Harrison?TheScreamingEagles said:
Should have gone for Sol CampbellTOPPING said:Being wise before after the event, what a shame the Cons didn't ask Shaun Bailey to stand instead of some OE up his own arse entitled green nob.
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Tonight, Corbyn gave us the politics of Enver
@stephenkb: Multiple attendees confirm that Corbyn did, in fact, quote Enver Hoxha: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/12/jeremy-corbyn-quotes-enver-hoxha-labour-party-christmas-party …0 -
It's thanks to racism that we now have all become convulsed by Islamophobia.Sean_F said:
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.The_Apocalypse said:
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.MP_SE said:
All of the police were historically racist?The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
Amazing! Who would have thought Man U could score twice in the same game! Not happened in years (or so it seems!)Scrapheap_as_was said:crazy crazy football
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No. It's thanks to religion.tyson said:It's thanks to racism that we now have all become convulsed by Islamophobia.
Sean_F said:
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.The_Apocalypse said:
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.MP_SE said:
All of the police were historically racist?The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
Have you had a Parmo Pizza yet?SandyRentool said:If London had Parmo shops instead of Fried Chicken shops it would be a better place.
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I'm sorry.
But no discussion (if we remember the thread, please) about fried chicken outlets is complete without...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw-fHLssmsI0 -
Why did she say that?volcanopete said:
As my old ma used to say,pride comes before a fall.FrancisUrquhart said:
If we are going to do the pedantic stakes...Conservative opposition...they are in government and hold the Mayor...opposition?volcanopete said:Jim Waterson @jimwaterson 4h4 hours ago
Conservative opposition research fail shocker as it's revealed that Chicken Shop sells "free range rotisserie chicken", not fried chicken.
I'd have some respect for her if she'd quoted more accurately: "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall"0 -
I think there's a (not uncommon) combination of old-fashioned bigotry towards "sluts" and a new-fashioned political correctness (post Lawrence) which prioritised " good community relations" above tackling crime.The_Apocalypse said:I do not want to institutionalise racism. That is a misrepresentation of my argument. I have not even argued for positive discrimination, or quotas.
@Sean_F No, that is the incompetent of the police that is to blame. And most likely some sexist attitudes towards the victims ass well.
On being a 'victim' of their crimes, as I said previously young black people, are as much victims of crimes as they are criminals. If we stereotype them as criminals, we need to also stereotype them as victims. In regard to the overall argument, I think @Anorak makes a very a good argument indeed.Cyclefree said:I'm well aware of how big a problem trust in the police is for some communities. While I was still qualifying as a lawyer I did voluntary legal work for the North Ken Law Centre - Notting HIll/Ladbroke Grove before they became famous and trendy - and most of the clients were young black men, usually mixed race with one West Indian parent, often in care, and generally involved in drugs and muggings. They had done bad things but were not the worst guys I've met: lost souls largely, suffering from poor parenting, rubbish education. falling into gangs, but could be individually charming and deserved better. The police had to deal with them and their crimes over and over again and being a victim of their crimes was no fun. It was not a surprise that the police tended to take a jaundiced view of young black men nor that they, in their turn, had a jaundiced view of authority figures. They largely needed a father and some consistent and loving boundaries and discipline.
But the way for the police to earn trust is to behave well. Actions speak louder than words. And they speak even more loudly than simple appearances.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.0 -
Trying to out do McMao?TheScreamingEagles said:Tonight, Corbyn gave us the politics of Enver
@stephenkb: Multiple attendees confirm that Corbyn did, in fact, quote Enver Hoxha: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/12/jeremy-corbyn-quotes-enver-hoxha-labour-party-christmas-party …0 -
I'm a traditionalist when it comes to Parmos. As long as it comes in a pizza box I'm happy.Freggles said:
Have you had a Parmo Pizza yet?SandyRentool said:If London had Parmo shops instead of Fried Chicken shops it would be a better place.
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Is like a game of hard left top trumpsFrancisUrquhart said:
Trying to out do McMao?TheScreamingEagles said:Tonight, Corbyn gave us the politics of Enver
@stephenkb: Multiple attendees confirm that Corbyn did, in fact, quote Enver Hoxha: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/12/jeremy-corbyn-quotes-enver-hoxha-labour-party-christmas-party …0 -
@gsoh31: Welsh 2016 election headlines from @roger_scully... Lab minority gov? Looks like they may lose a few seats on 2011.
http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2015-12-08/polls-shows-slip-in-labour-support/ …0 -
I don't want to get into a battle of semantics, but I can't quite remember our collective revulsion against African christian sects that murdered children, and beat women to death to cure them off devils.
Even my mum is talking this Islamaphobic claptrap that I would only ever usually see from the usual idiots, SeanT et al at pbCOM.
Thankfully Donald Fart has overstepped the mark yesterday. Hopefully now we can kick this repellant, horrible, racism speak into the long grass.David_Evershed said:
No. It's thanks to religion.tyson said:It's thanks to racism that we now have all become convulsed by Islamophobia.
Sean_F said:
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.The_Apocalypse said:
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.MP_SE said:
All of the police were historically racist?The_Apocalypse said:
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.TOPPING said:Off/On-topic.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??0 -
Fair go, as Mr Eagles points out we are now fifty years on from the first attempt to outlaw discrimination by race. The situation in the UK today is nothing like it was then, the battle in as far as it can be has been won.Philip_Thompson said:
Is that a surprise. If we institutionalise racism like Apocalpyse wants then why should that racism have no nastiness there is no good form of racism we need to say no to all racism not hey we like this racism and we dislike that racism.HurstLlama said:
Indeed, and perhaps one should also remember that racism is something that is practiced (if that is the right word) by people in most if not all ethnic groups. The then "Chair" of the Sussex Police Black Police Association once said in my hearing of a proposal to attract more ethnic Chinese recruits, "Fuck them, they don't matter".Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.Anorak said:Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
Someone, I am very sorry I cannot remember who, argued earlier today that most of the "great evils" in UK society have been beaten*, but the politics and the people who depend on those evils haven't and will not let go. Too much money and too much power is tied up in pretending that society today is as it was fifty years ago and new discriminations are being discovered to fill the vacuum.
*I have argued, and will again if anyone wants me to, that the giant evils of idleness, ignorance and squalor are making a come back because of the welfare state being taken beyond what Beveridge and Co envisioned.0
