George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.
''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?
Who said anything about talent?
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?
Do you think it strange there are more female vets than male vets?
Yes, I do actually.
Really? It is a job that seems to appeal more to women. So what? I'm not going to go and burn my best about it.
But why are 'maternal' jobs seen as female domain? It would be great to get more men into professions like nursing, for example.
Why would it? As long as we have enough nurses, I don't see the issue.
That post you and I replied to was one of those wonderful occasions where both the point made and the premise of the point are groundless.
I didn't say anything about trusting them more, just at the same level as officers of their own gender/minority.
This was what you said to me previously:
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man?
If I misinterpreted this I apologise, but the word more relative to women and minorities was used twice.
Yes, I said it that way because you were implying that women trusted women officers more than men (etc.). I was questioning why you thought that. I never said they should trust white male officers (etc.) more.
I see Cameron has refused to say he wouldn't ban Trump from entering Britain (presumably using the ban on hate preachers and all that) - says it's hypothetical for now as Trump will be busy.
@NickPalmer Oliver Letwin?! Really? I would say I've thought many things of Letwin but gentle and open minded is not one of them, I'm afraid. I actually haven't heard of Fabian Hamilton. So there's someone to google, I guess?
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.
think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.
Actually, it was police racism which did that.
Nonsense.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
If you've not been there before:
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other 2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula 3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around. 4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental 5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese. 6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung. 7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.
@OliverCooper: 68% of 30% (GOP voters that back Trump) of 50% (GOP voters) = 10%. Even Perot won 19%, so knock yourself out, Don. https://t.co/ds4NqGnvJH
O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
If you've not been there before:
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other 2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula 3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around. 4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental 5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese. 6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung. 7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.
Thanks! Should be arriving at about 10am, but never too early for option 7...
I didn't say anything about trusting them more, just at the same level as officers of their own gender/minority.
This was what you said to me previously:
And they should trust women more than men, or a minority more than a white man?
If I misinterpreted this I apologise, but the word more relative to women and minorities was used twice.
Yes, I said it that way because you were implying that women trusted women officers more than men (etc.). I was questioning why you thought that. I never said they should trust white male officers (etc.) more.
I don't think women trust female officers more (unless its on issues of rape, sexual assault). The inclusion of women into the conversation was more on representation in relation to the overall population. I'm sorry if I did not make it clear. I'm aware you don't believe that they should trust white male officers more, don't worry that was not how I perceived your question!
think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.
Actually, it was police racism which did that.
Nonsense.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
It's not nonsense. The report that was released after the Lawrence case pretty much concluded that the police was institutionally racist. That is more that just a couple of police officers. I am not promoting the concept of the police being racist, nor am I am telling communities anything. I am simply arguing what many people feel, and what they have experienced. Those feelings, and experiences are a problem.
@NickPalmer Oliver Letwin?! Really? I would say I've thought many things of Letwin but gentle and open minded is not one of them, I'm afraid. I actually haven't heard of Fabian Hamilton. So there's someone to google, I guess?
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.
Perhaps they're not joining the profession because they are being 'forced' by 'gender roles', perhaps they're just doing it because they want to, and they don't need you to patronise them and tell them their decision is somehow backward, or worse still take some sort of ham-fisted 'action' to try and address the non-existent problem.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
Most of the middle class women I know are far too sensible to want to be either policemen or politicians.
It's not just those two professions - it's overall. Positions of power and influence are more than just being a policemen or a politician. It's odd that 50% of the population really doesn't seem to fancy these jobs.
''If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law.''
If large communities do not trust the police on the basis they are white, then that is a racist community.
They do not trust the police on the basis of a history of the police discriminating against them because of their background.
It is odd because, let me guess, you think it is odd...
No, that's not the case. Why are 50% of the population underrepresented in positions of power? You don't think of that as strange? That middle, upper class white men appear to be the only really talented demographic in the UK? Really?
Who said anything about talent?
If only 6 people apply for a job and they are all male, white or middle class, or all 3, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if one were appointed.
Talent has little correlation with positions of power. Welcome to the real world.
Welcome to the real world - that's why our society is pretty much messed up.
Who said anything about talent - I said something about talent. And if all male, white, upper/middle class men are the only people applying to these kinds of jobs, then there is something rather strange about that. Why is this the only demographic interested in powerful positions?
Do you think it strange there are more female vets than male vets?
Yes, I do actually.
Really? It is a job that seems to appeal more to women. So what? I'm not going to go and burn my best about it.
But why are 'maternal' jobs seen as female domain? It would be great to get more men into professions like nursing, for example.
Why would it? As long as we have enough nurses, I don't see the issue.
That post you and I replied to was one of those wonderful occasions where both the point made and the premise of the point are groundless.
O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
If you've not been there before:
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other 2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula 3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around. 4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental 5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese. 6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung. 7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.
Thanks! Should be arriving at about 10am, but never too early for option 7...
As always, go to the Felix bar at The Peninsula and make sure you go to the gents. Best view you'll ever have while pissing the night away.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.
@NickPalmer Oliver Letwin?! Really? I would say I've thought many things of Letwin but gentle and open minded is not one of them, I'm afraid. I actually haven't heard of Fabian Hamilton. So there's someone to google, I guess?
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.
Perhaps they're not joining the profession because they are being 'forced' by 'gender roles', perhaps they're just doing it because they want to, and they don't need you to patronise them and tell them their decision is somehow backward, or worse still take some sort of ham-fisted 'action' to try and address the non-existent problem.
I never said they were 'forced' nor am I patronising them. Gender roles are something people are socialised into for the most part. I never said that their decision was backward either. These are all strawman arguments. Nor do I believe that the problem is non-existent. I believe gender roles are huge problem within our society.
O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
If you've not been there before:
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other 2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula 3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around. 4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental 5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese. 6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung. 7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.
Thanks! Should be arriving at about 10am, but never too early for option 7...
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.
I don't want quotas, I've never argued for more quotas. But I am glad that you agree there should be more
Jim Waterson @jimwaterson 4h4 hours ago Conservative opposition research fail shocker as it's revealed that Chicken Shop sells "free range rotisserie chicken", not fried chicken.
If we are going to do the pedantic stakes...Conservative opposition...they are in government and hold the Mayor...opposition?
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.
Actually, it was police racism which did that.
Nonsense.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
It's not nonsense. The report that was released after the Lawrence case pretty much concluded that the police was institutionally racist.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.
I don't want quotas, I've never argued for more quotas. But I am glad that you agree there should be more
As ever, the biggest disagreements are about the most minor points.
Most of us here want better policemen, and would love it if they were more representative of society. But for most of us here, the first is far more important than the latter. Merit trumps identity.
Incidentally, I'd argue that if this policy were adopted and encouraged for both those in powerful rules and those whom they interact with, we'd probably have better relations between human beings.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
Plenty of the police were historically racist; plenty of people were historically racist.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
And you think they should be racist in the present.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
And you think they should be racist in the present.
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?
Somewhat comforting that they were already being targeted prior to the attacks in Paris.
Interesting - we have heard of the magnificent seven attacks foiled here. I'm sure it was as hair's breadth as in this instance the difference between success and failure.
So second generation immigrants that have failed to assimilate, and lived in segregated ghettoes are the common factor in almost all recent terrorist acts, inspired by the hatred of, and desire to overthrow the country of their birth
think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.
Actually, it was police racism which did that.
Nonsense.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.
O/T - I have an unscheduled 12 hour layover in Hong Kong due to United's incompetence at maintaining their aircraft. Any tips?
If you've not been there before:
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other 2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula 3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around. 4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental 5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese. 6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung. 7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.
Crikey is Wan Chai still going as an area for naughty pleasures? Even if it is I bet it is a lot more restrained than in my day. That said my favourite Hong Kong knocking shop was the 747 Club and that was Kowloonside.
Even so the Hotel Lisboa and the Estoril (from where I was once slung out for singing Jersusalem at the bar) both in Macau were, unless one was seriously spending money, better than anywhere in Hong Kong.
@NickPalmer Oliver Letwin?! Really? I would say I've thought many things of Letwin but gentle and open minded is not one of them, I'm afraid. I actually haven't heard of Fabian Hamilton. So there's someone to google, I guess?
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.
Oliver's lovely - I even invited him to my wedding. He's the only front-bencher on either side who I've known to admit in committee (quite often) being persuaded by an argument that something he said was wrong. He's a bit other-worldly - the occasion when he was burgled by a stranger who he let in at 6am to use the loo is entirely in character.But in a house full of tough-minded schemers (among whom I would someimes include myself), that's a nice change.
Fabian is described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Hamilton - he holds Cyclefree views on positive discrimination and perhaps other things too. But irrespective of whether you agree with him, basically he's just a really nice guy.
PBMODERATOR: Please could someone edit the long block of zzzzzs in the post at 8:08pm? On an iPad it is breaking the sites format by being too wide making the site very unpleasant to browse.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
PBMODERATOR: Please could someone edit the long block of zzzzzs in the post at 8:08pm? On an iPad it is breaking the sites format by being too wide making the site very unpleasant to browse.
@OliverCooper: 68% of 30% (GOP voters that back Trump) of 50% (GOP voters) = 10%. Even Perot won 19%, so knock yourself out, Don. https://t.co/ds4NqGnvJH
Donald would have a fair shot at topping 10% as a third party candidate, depending on who the GOP chose.
PBMODERATOR: Please could someone edit the long block of zzzzzs in the post at 8:08pm? On an iPad it is breaking the sites format by being too wide making the site very unpleasant to browse.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.
I don't want quotas, I've never argued for more quotas. But I am glad that you agree there should be more
As ever, the biggest disagreements are about the most minor points.
Most of us here want better policemen, and would love it if they were more representative of society. But for most of us here, the first is far more important than the latter. Merit trumps identity.
I can't speak for The Apocalypse, but for me, it is not the case that I would prefer police to be more representative of society INSTEAD of having better policemen. My point is that, in my view, the police cannot be effective at upholding the law if huge chunks of the local population have no confidence in them, and that huge chunks of the local population will not have confidence in them while they don't see "themselves" represented by the police.
You may disagree that more ethnic diversity in the police is a pre-requisite for the police to be effective, which is obviously a legitimate point of view. But please stop misrepresenting my view as being about "identity trumping merit".
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.
I don't want quotas, I've never argued for more quotas. But I am glad that you agree there should be more
As ever, the biggest disagreements are about the most minor points.
Most of us here want better policemen, and would love it if they were more representative of society. But for most of us here, the first is far more important than the latter. Merit trumps identity.
Incidentally, I'd argue that if this policy were adopted and encouraged for both those in powerful rules and those whom they interact with, we'd probably have better relations between human beings.
Merit should indeed trump identity in an idealogical utopia, but in reality the bar to being a policeman is so low as to be practically subterranean. Having spent a few weeks on jury service, I can say with 100% conviction (ha ha) that a high proportion of beat bobbies are as thick as two short planks.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
And you think they should be racist in the present.
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
Of course there should be more, I don't think that is being disputed. I think the manner in which we get there is. Some want quotas and effectively positive discrimination, others want an exclusively merit-based approach.
I don't want quotas, I've never argued for more quotas. But I am glad that you agree there should be more
As ever, the biggest disagreements are about the most minor points.
Most of us here want better policemen, and would love it if they were more representative of society. But for most of us here, the first is far more important than the latter. Merit trumps identity.
I can't speak for The Apocalypse, but for me, it is not the case that I would prefer police to be more representative of society INSTEAD of having better policemen. My point is that, in my view, the police cannot be effective at upholding the law if huge chunks of the local population have no confidence in them, and that huge chunks of the local population will not have confidence in them while they don't see "themselves" represented by the police.
You may disagree that more ethnic diversity in the police is a pre-requisite for the police to be effective, which is obviously a legitimate point of view. But please stop misrepresenting my view as being about "identity trumping merit".
Should we have more criminals in the force? As having more criminals will make the force more like certain communities they need to deal with should they have more obese people?
I disagree with racism. Being racist in who you hire is wrong full stop. No ifs, no buts.
I think the priority is getting the best policemen we can get. In an ideal world they should come from as diverse a range of backgrounds as the people they police and where that is clearly not the case, as in May's examples I think it is a warning sign. But the standard should not be reduced to resolve that issue. I would have fewer problems with specific incentives.
@NickPalmer Oliver Letwin?! Really? I would say I've thought many things of Letwin but gentle and open minded is not one of them, I'm afraid. I actually haven't heard of Fabian Hamilton. So there's someone to google, I guess?
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.
Oliver's lovely - I even invited him to my wedding. He's the only front-bencher on either side who I've known to admit in committee (quite often) being persuaded by an argument that something he said was wrong. He's a bit other-worldly - the occasion when he was burgled by a stranger who he let in at 6am to use the loo is entirely in character.But in a house full of tough-minded schemers (among whom I would someimes include myself), that's a nice change.
Fabian is described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Hamilton - he holds Cyclefree views on positive discrimination and perhaps other things too. But irrespective of whether you agree with him, basically he's just a really nice guy.
Wow. Well, I guess you only really see one side of political figures!
Thanks for posting the article on Fabian Hamilton. He sounds like an interesting man, at the very least!
think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.
Actually, it was police racism which did that.
Nonsense.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.
Discrimination is never positive to the people being discriminated against.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
And you think they should be racist in the present.
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?
I'll refer you to my post at 8:33.
And I've already replied to that. The report concluded otherwise. Why do you think that report was wrong?
think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.
Actually, it was police racism which did that.
Nonsense.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.
Discrimination is never positive to the people being discriminated against.
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
And you think they should be racist in the present.
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?
I'll refer you to my post at 8:33.
And I've already replied to that. The report concluded otherwise. Why do you think that report was wrong?
You just asked that question. I've already answered it.
think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.
Actually, it was police racism which did that.
Nonsense.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.
Discrimination is never positive to the people being discriminated against.
Discrimination is never positive.
Even the people being discriminated towards suffer due to it. If they were good enough to get the job anyways then they are tarnished unfairly with aspersions of only getting it due to their race which is doubly wrong. If they weren't good enough to get the job them there are surely reasons for that.
think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.
Actually, it was police racism which did that.
Nonsense.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.
Discrimination is never positive to the people being discriminated against.
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
I care about the next 50 years. I care about the damn fine policemen who will be delayed in entering the force, or possibly put off joining altogether, because of discrimination.
If discrimination was wrong then, it's still wrong now.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
And you think they should be racist in the present.
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?
I'll refer you to my post at 8:33.
And I've already replied to that. The report concluded otherwise. Why do you think that report was wrong?
You just asked that question. I've already answered it.
Really? You haven't said why you think its' wrong, just that you think the report is wrong. But if you don't want to say anymore, that's fine.
think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.
And this is why identity politics is so damaging: it allows such poisonous concepts to take root.
Actually, it was police racism which did that.
Nonsense.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
I'd say that there was a great deal of racism in the police (and still is). For decades it was normalised behaviour. Not tolerated as such, just utterly ignored as a non-problem.
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.
Discrimination is never positive to the people being discriminated against.
Discrimination is never positive.
Even the people being discriminated towards suffer due to it. If they were good enough to get the job anyways then they are tarnished unfairly with aspersions of only getting it due to their race which is doubly wrong. If they weren't good enough to get the job them there are surely reasons for that.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
And you think they should be racist in the present.
Nope. I never said 'they should be racist' or 'they should mistrust the police'.
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?
I'll refer you to my post at 8:33.
And I've already replied to that. The report concluded otherwise. Why do you think that report was wrong?
You just asked that question. I've already answered it.
Really? You haven't said why you think its' wrong, just that you think the report is wrong. But if you don't want to say anymore, that's fine.
If you don't understand my answer, it's still there for you to go and read it again. You can keep asking if you insist but the answer isn't going to change.
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.
I can't wait to vote for Tyson as SPOTY. This is the kind of thing that brings the police into disrepute - though their hands are tied due to some extremely ill-thought through legislation.
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.
I fully acknowledge that there is a problem.
However, it seems to me that we have one example of trying to use positive discrimination as a remedy: in the Labour party with their considerable efforts to achieve a better gender balance.
To what extent, and in what ways, can we say that positive discrimination has helped remedy the fundamental problem?
It also seems to me that the answer is: not very much, sadly.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.
Indeed, and perhaps one should also remember that racism is something that is practiced (if that is the right word) by people in most if not all ethnic groups. The then "Chair" of the Sussex Police Black Police Association once said in my hearing of a proposal to attract more ethnic Chinese recruits, "Fuck them, they don't matter".
It's far natural to be able to identify with someone of a similar background to yours that to instinctively judge someone based on negative racial stereotypes. Those two comparisons are completely mismatched. The police are not there to make a community feel good, you are right. But it is important that communities feel they have trust in the police. Because that helps the police to do their jobs. If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law. Not in the least because it means if people cannot trust the police, they do not feel they police are making them feel safe and secure. It is not about the police not dealing with people because they are 'like them'. That's certainly something I've never said or proposed. Whether many on PB like or not, the issue of communities not trusting the police is a big one, and far more complex than your last paragraph suggests.
I'm well aware of how big a problem trust in the police is for some communities. While I was still qualifying as a lawyer I did voluntary legal work for the North Ken Law Centre - Notting HIll/Ladbroke Grove before they became famous and trendy - and most of the clients were young black men, usually mixed race with one West Indian parent, often in care, and generally involved in drugs and muggings. They had done bad things but were not the worst guys I've met: lost souls largely, suffering from poor parenting, rubbish education. falling into gangs, but could be individually charming and deserved better. The police had to deal with them and their crimes over and over again and being a victim of their crimes was no fun. It was not a surprise that the police tended to take a jaundiced view of young black men nor that they, in their turn, had a jaundiced view of authority figures. They largely needed a father and some consistent and loving boundaries and discipline.
But the way for the police to earn trust is to behave well. Actions speak louder than words. And they speak even more loudly than simple appearances.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.
The police are not there to make a community feel good. They are there to make the people they police feel safe and secure. They are then to make them feel that when bad stuff happens they will react quickly and decisively and effectively. They want the police not to hold off dealing with bad people because they are like them and the police value being liked over enforcing the law and keeping the peace. They want them not to hold off because the police are scared of being accused of racism, which has stupidly been elevated - for a non-Christian country, we are now told - into The Original Mortal Sin, or islamophobia or any of the other phobias and isms we are told to tiptoe around. They do not want the police being scared to investigate matters because of some cultural, religious or other sensitivity. They want the police to do their job, for God's sake.
Straw-men galore. No-one's saying this is about "making the community feel good": it's about the practical point of the police being effective, and in my view they can only be effective if the majority of the law-abiding public has confidence that the police are "on their side".
As I said earlier, I don't think this should be done for most professions: if someone of a certain race/sexuality doesn't feel like the staff at the local Tesco represents them, then it's not the end of the world. It's precisely because the police are so essential to any country that, IMO, an exception on this should be made for them.
I was responding to a post where making the community feel good was exactly the reason why the police had to represent them. Wrong on so many levels. The only "side" the police should be on is that of the law-abiding.
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.
Indeed, and perhaps one should also remember that racism is something that is practiced (if that is the right word) by people in most if not all ethnic groups. The then "Chair" of the Sussex Police Black Police Association once said in my hearing of a proposal to attract more ethnic Chinese recruits, "Fuck them, they don't matter".
Is that a surprise. If we institutionalise racism like Apocalpyse wants then why should that racism have no nastiness there is no good form of racism we need to say no to all racism not hey we like this racism and we dislike that racism.
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.
Indeed, and perhaps one should also remember that racism is something that is practiced (if that is the right word) by people in most if not all ethnic groups. The then "Chair" of the Sussex Police Black Police Association once said in my hearing of a proposal to attract more ethnic Chinese recruits, "Fuck them, they don't matter".
Is that a surprise. If we institutionalise racism like Apocalpyse wants then why should that racism have no nastiness there is no good form of racism we need to say no to all racism not hey we like this racism and we dislike that racism.
I would never want to get a job because of the colour of my skin, or my supposed religion.
I'm glad of the three jobs I've had in my life, it was all down to the fact I was the best candidate for the job.
Amusing that we're discussing this on the fiftieth anniversary of the race relations act coming into force.
On topic Sadiq Khan is going to win- absolutely no brainer. Mikes 50-1 is safe as the proverbial. And I still have never lost on a political bet. I don't quite know how the Tories will begin to attack him, so going for his flip floppery on fried chicken presents their high water mark. Perhaps they can go for Corbyn's trackie suit bottoms to gain some traction.
I'm well aware of how big a problem trust in the police is for some communities. While I was still qualifying as a lawyer I did voluntary legal work for the North Ken Law Centre - Notting HIll/Ladbroke Grove before they became famous and trendy - and most of the clients were young black men, usually mixed race with one West Indian parent, often in care, and generally involved in drugs and muggings. They had done bad things but were not the worst guys I've met: lost souls largely, suffering from poor parenting, rubbish education. falling into gangs, but could be individually charming and deserved better. The police had to deal with them and their crimes over and over again and being a victim of their crimes was no fun. It was not a surprise that the police tended to take a jaundiced view of young black men nor that they, in their turn, had a jaundiced view of authority figures. They largely needed a father and some consistent and loving boundaries and discipline.
But the way for the police to earn trust is to behave well. Actions speak louder than words. And they speak even more loudly than simple appearances.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.
On being a 'victim' of their crimes, as I said previously young black people, are as much victims of crimes as they are criminals. If we stereotype them as criminals, we need to also stereotype them as victims. In regard to the overall argument, I think @Anorak makes a very a good argument indeed.
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.
Indeed, and perhaps one should also remember that racism is something that is practiced (if that is the right word) by people in most if not all ethnic groups. The then "Chair" of the Sussex Police Black Police Association once said in my hearing of a proposal to attract more ethnic Chinese recruits, "Fuck them, they don't matter".
Is that a surprise. If we institutionalise racism like Apocalpyse wants then why should that racism have no nastiness there is no good form of racism we need to say no to all racism not hey we like this racism and we dislike that racism.
Well said
Eurosceptics say it about the EU, but it does seem that the ultra left remedy for racism is "more racism"
How can a persons first principles be that it is wrong to discriminate on skin colour, and then do just that themselves?
Jim Waterson @jimwaterson 4h4 hours ago Conservative opposition research fail shocker as it's revealed that Chicken Shop sells "free range rotisserie chicken", not fried chicken.
If we are going to do the pedantic stakes...Conservative opposition...they are in government and hold the Mayor...opposition?
As my old ma used to say,pride comes before a fall.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.
Jim Waterson @jimwaterson 4h4 hours ago Conservative opposition research fail shocker as it's revealed that Chicken Shop sells "free range rotisserie chicken", not fried chicken.
If we are going to do the pedantic stakes...Conservative opposition...they are in government and hold the Mayor...opposition?
As my old ma used to say,pride comes before a fall.
Why did she say that?
I'd have some respect for her if she'd quoted more accurately: "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall"
I'm well aware of how big a problem trust in the police is for some communities. While I was still qualifying as a lawyer I did voluntary legal work for the North Ken Law Centre - Notting HIll/Ladbroke Grove before they became famous and trendy - and most of the clients were young black men, usually mixed race with one West Indian parent, often in care, and generally involved in drugs and muggings. They had done bad things but were not the worst guys I've met: lost souls largely, suffering from poor parenting, rubbish education. falling into gangs, but could be individually charming and deserved better. The police had to deal with them and their crimes over and over again and being a victim of their crimes was no fun. It was not a surprise that the police tended to take a jaundiced view of young black men nor that they, in their turn, had a jaundiced view of authority figures. They largely needed a father and some consistent and loving boundaries and discipline.
But the way for the police to earn trust is to behave well. Actions speak louder than words. And they speak even more loudly than simple appearances.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.
On being a 'victim' of their crimes, as I said previously young black people, are as much victims of crimes as they are criminals. If we stereotype them as criminals, we need to also stereotype them as victims. In regard to the overall argument, I think @Anorak makes a very a good argument indeed.
I think there's a (not uncommon) combination of old-fashioned bigotry towards "sluts" and a new-fashioned political correctness (post Lawrence) which prioritised " good community relations" above tackling crime.
I don't want to get into a battle of semantics, but I can't quite remember our collective revulsion against African christian sects that murdered children, and beat women to death to cure them off devils.
Even my mum is talking this Islamaphobic claptrap that I would only ever usually see from the usual idiots, SeanT et al at pbCOM.
Thankfully Donald Fart has overstepped the mark yesterday. Hopefully now we can kick this repellant, horrible, racism speak into the long grass.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.
Nice platitude. Maybe you could have told the police that over the last 50 years.
Absolutely racism in the past was wrong. The solution to it is to say that racism is wrong, not to say that racism is good so long as it is my racism and not yours.
Indeed, and perhaps one should also remember that racism is something that is practiced (if that is the right word) by people in most if not all ethnic groups. The then "Chair" of the Sussex Police Black Police Association once said in my hearing of a proposal to attract more ethnic Chinese recruits, "Fuck them, they don't matter".
Is that a surprise. If we institutionalise racism like Apocalpyse wants then why should that racism have no nastiness there is no good form of racism we need to say no to all racism not hey we like this racism and we dislike that racism.
Fair go, as Mr Eagles points out we are now fifty years on from the first attempt to outlaw discrimination by race. The situation in the UK today is nothing like it was then, the battle in as far as it can be has been won.
Someone, I am very sorry I cannot remember who, argued earlier today that most of the "great evils" in UK society have been beaten*, but the politics and the people who depend on those evils haven't and will not let go. Too much money and too much power is tied up in pretending that society today is as it was fifty years ago and new discriminations are being discovered to fill the vacuum.
*I have argued, and will again if anyone wants me to, that the giant evils of idleness, ignorance and squalor are making a come back because of the welfare state being taken beyond what Beveridge and Co envisioned.
Comments
@Luckyguy1983 I feel that significant gender divisions in professions reinforces gender roles, which I disagree with. I dislike the expectation that women should be emotional, caring etc as opposed to men.
That there were some racist policemen is not in doubt. But promoting the concept of the police as a whole being racist was in itself playing identity politics, dividing the public into arbitrary groups and telling one of them "the police hate you".
This is a problem.
1. Take a tram ride from one end of Hong Kong Island to the other
2. Go to Tsim ShaTsui to walk around, have dim sum, get some shirts (not suits), end up with coffee or tea (depending on time of day) at The Peninsula
3. Go to Stanley Market for a look around.
4. Go for a drink at The Captain's Bar, Mandarin Oriental
5. Go for dinner at The American Chinese.
6. Go for late drinks in Lan Kwai Fung.
7. Go for later drinks and (xxx) in Wan Chai
Depending on what time you are there and when your 12 hours begins.
@OliverCooper: 68% of 30% (GOP voters that back Trump) of 50% (GOP voters) = 10%. Even Perot won 19%, so knock yourself out, Don. https://t.co/ds4NqGnvJH
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35044182
Most of us here want better policemen, and would love it if they were more representative of society. But for most of us here, the first is far more important than the latter. Merit trumps identity.
Incidentally, I'd argue that if this policy were adopted and encouraged for both those in powerful rules and those whom they interact with, we'd probably have better relations between human beings.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35046629
FFS..
@Mortimer I think for me, they are both equally important. But I understand that many PBers disagree!
@ThreeQuidder So you think the report was wrong then. Why?
They've only got to be lucky once....
Who would have thought it?
We must be, mad
To deny that this does not impact behaviours in minority communities is barking. Getting more minority officers would be a fantastic step forward in retaining trust and integrating minority communities. I'm uncomfortable in using quotas to achieve this, but a modicum of positive discrimination, while philosophically unappealing, is probably the only way to make progress in the short term.
Kicking off about "capability should be the only metric" may be reasonable in theory, but the harsh fact is that the real world often needs a helping hand to move in the direction we want.
Even so the Hotel Lisboa and the Estoril (from where I was once slung out for singing Jersusalem at the bar) both in Macau were, unless one was seriously spending money, better than anywhere in Hong Kong.
Fabian is described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Hamilton - he holds Cyclefree views on positive discrimination and perhaps other things too. But irrespective of whether you agree with him, basically he's just a really nice guy.
That may solve the problem while it is still on the first page of comments.
You may disagree that more ethnic diversity in the police is a pre-requisite for the police to be effective, which is obviously a legitimate point of view. But please stop misrepresenting my view as being about "identity trumping merit".
O/T Hartson is a terrible pundit on R5. Clicheclock
I disagree with racism. Being racist in who you hire is wrong full stop. No ifs, no buts.
Thanks for posting the article on Fabian Hamilton. He sounds like an interesting man, at the very least!
Even the people being discriminated towards suffer due to it. If they were good enough to get the job anyways then they are tarnished unfairly with aspersions of only getting it due to their race which is doubly wrong. If they weren't good enough to get the job them there are surely reasons for that.
If discrimination was wrong then, it's still wrong now.
However, it seems to me that we have one example of trying to use positive discrimination as a remedy: in the Labour party with their considerable efforts to achieve a better gender balance.
To what extent, and in what ways, can we say that positive discrimination has helped remedy the fundamental problem?
It also seems to me that the answer is: not very much, sadly.
edit
oh no they aren't, PSV equalise.
@ExcelPope: From Britain First's legal team, can America legally prevent Muslims entering the country? https://t.co/9f2G7fH7Qd
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/674277265010724865
But the way for the police to earn trust is to behave well. Actions speak louder than words. And they speak even more loudly than simple appearances.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.
I'd have gone mad trying to keep up.
But for those who remember the discussion about the Universal Basic Income, a few days ago there is an interesting article on CapX today:
http://www.capx.co/julia-hartley-a-basic-income/
I'm glad of the three jobs I've had in my life, it was all down to the fact I was the best candidate for the job.
Amusing that we're discussing this on the fiftieth anniversary of the race relations act coming into force.
On topic Sadiq Khan is going to win- absolutely no brainer. Mikes 50-1 is safe as the proverbial. And I still have never lost on a political bet. I don't quite know how the Tories will begin to attack him, so going for his flip floppery on fried chicken presents their high water mark. Perhaps they can go for Corbyn's trackie suit bottoms to gain some traction.
@Sean_F No, that is the incompetent of the police that is to blame. And most likely some sexist attitudes towards the victims ass well. On being a 'victim' of their crimes, as I said previously young black people, are as much victims of crimes as they are criminals. If we stereotype them as criminals, we need to also stereotype them as victims. In regard to the overall argument, I think @Anorak makes a very a good argument indeed.
Eurosceptics say it about the EU, but it does seem that the ultra left remedy for racism is "more racism"
How can a persons first principles be that it is wrong to discriminate on skin colour, and then do just that themselves?
Imbeciles
@stephenkb: Multiple attendees confirm that Corbyn did, in fact, quote Enver Hoxha: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/12/jeremy-corbyn-quotes-enver-hoxha-labour-party-christmas-party …
But no discussion (if we remember the thread, please) about fried chicken outlets is complete without...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw-fHLssmsI
I'd have some respect for her if she'd quoted more accurately: "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall"
http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2015-12-08/polls-shows-slip-in-labour-support/ …
Even my mum is talking this Islamaphobic claptrap that I would only ever usually see from the usual idiots, SeanT et al at pbCOM.
Thankfully Donald Fart has overstepped the mark yesterday. Hopefully now we can kick this repellant, horrible, racism speak into the long grass.
Someone, I am very sorry I cannot remember who, argued earlier today that most of the "great evils" in UK society have been beaten*, but the politics and the people who depend on those evils haven't and will not let go. Too much money and too much power is tied up in pretending that society today is as it was fifty years ago and new discriminations are being discovered to fill the vacuum.
*I have argued, and will again if anyone wants me to, that the giant evils of idleness, ignorance and squalor are making a come back because of the welfare state being taken beyond what Beveridge and Co envisioned.