It's far natural to be able to identify with someone of a similar background to yours that to instinctively judge someone based on negative racial stereotypes. Those two comparisons are completely mismatched. The police are not there to make a community feel good, you are right. But it is important that communities feel they have trust in the police. Because that helps the police to do their jobs. If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law. Not in the least because it means if people cannot trust the police, they do not feel they police are making them feel safe and secure. It is not about the police not dealing with people because they are 'like them'. That's certainly something I've never said or proposed. Whether many on PB like or not, the issue of communities not trusting the police is a big one, and far more complex than your last paragraph suggests.
I'm well aware of how big a problem trust in the police is for some communities. While I was still qualifying as a lawyer I did voluntary legal work for the North Ken Law Centre - Notting HIll/Ladbroke Grove before they became famous and trendy - and most of the clients were young black men, usually mixed race with one West Indian parent, often in care, and generally involved in drugs and muggings. They had done bad things but were not the worst guys I've met: lost souls largely, suffering from poor parenting, rubbish education. falling into gangs, but could be individually charming and deserved better. The police had to deal with them and their crimes over and over again and being a victim of their crimes was no fun. It was not a surprise that the police tended to take a jaundiced view of young black men nor that they, in their turn, had a jaundiced view of authority figures. They largely needed a father and some consistent and loving boundaries and discipline.
But the way for the police to earn trust is to behave well. Actions speak louder than words. And they speak even more loudly than simple appearances.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.
As always Ms Cyclefree, beautifully presented. Would ethnically matched communities and policemen be discriminatory in the appointment of the policemen, which is obviously the way the match would have to be made?
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.
Sorry Peeps, but you, and the rest of the political bubble, are going to be inundated with the SNPHQ doing their normal attempts at diversion over the next few weeks. It seems that even well kent snp supporters like Martin Hannan in the Edinburgh Evening News suspect all is not well in the bowels of Holyrood over the Forth Road Bridge debacle.
Plus the suspicion amongst many that the only reason Sturgeon turned up in Paris was to do her Christmas shopping.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.
On being a 'victim' of their crimes, as I said previously young black people, are as much victims of crimes as they are criminals. If we stereotype them as criminals, we need to also stereotype them as victims. In regard to the overall argument, I think @Anorak makes a very a good argument indeed.
I'm arguing against stereotyping. You're the one who seems to think that the group someone belongs to is somehow a relevant factor in recruitment because such a person will "look like" them or make others feel that they are "one of us".
It was the black community that, when they realised how many young black men and women were victims of crime, demanded that the police do their job. Not that they have more black officers primarily but that those police officers, whatever their colour, do their job of dealing with such crime. Maybe - just maybe - the police's concern about how to behave, given the "institutionally racist" finding, made them both ultra cautious and/or scared of getting involved. They risked being accused of racism by both the victims (by neglecting them) and by the perpetrators.
The law of unintended consequences, maybe. Better for the police to have a laser like focus on crime than a focus on fending off accusations by those with multiple agendas, many of them nothing to do with the police's job.
Anyway, thank you for the discussion.
I am off to Paris early tomorrow with one of my favourite people in the world so I need my beauty sleep. If you don't hear from me for a bit it's because I intend having some fun!
I can't wait to vote for Tyson as SPOTY. This is the kind of thing that brings the police into disrepute - though their hands are tied due to some extremely ill-thought through legislation.
I have put a couple of quid on Tyson. Imagine the fun on the BBC if he wins. I feel a twitter campaign coming on...
Trump is only popular because the left have spent 40 years closing down rational debate about immigration. People with mildly centre-right views on the subject have been labelled as racist during that time.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.
On being a 'victim' of their crimes, as I said previously young black people, are as much victims of crimes as they are criminals. If we stereotype them as criminals, we need to also stereotype them as victims. In regard to the overall argument, I think @Anorak makes a very a good argument indeed.
I'm arguing against stereotyping. You're the one who seems to think that the group someone belongs to is somehow a relevant factor in recruitment because such a person will "look like" them or make others feel that they are "one of us".
It was the black community that, when they realised how many young black men and women were victims of crime, demanded that the police do their job. Not that they have more black officers primarily but that those police officers, whatever their colour, do their job of dealing with such crime. Maybe - just maybe - the police's concern about how to behave, given the "institutionally racist" finding, made them both ultra cautious and/or scared of getting involved. They risked being accused of racism by both the victims (by neglecting them) and by the perpetrators.
The law of unintended consequences, maybe. Better for the police to have a laser like focus on crime than a focus on fending off accusations by those with multiple agendas, many of them nothing to do with the police's job.
Anyway, thank you for the discussion.
I am off to Paris early tomorrow with one of my favourite people in the world so I need my beauty sleep. If you don't hear from me for a bit it's because I intend having some fun!
I don't want to get into a battle of semantics, but I can't quite remember our collective revulsion against African christian sects that murdered children, and beat women to death to cure them off devils.
Even my mum is talking this Islamaphobic claptrap that I would only ever usually see from the usual idiots, SeanT et al at pbCOM.
Thankfully Donald Fart has overstepped the mark yesterday. Hopefully now we can kick this repellant, horrible, racism speak into the long grass.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.
On being a 'victim' of their crimes, as I said previously young black people, are as much victims of crimes as they are criminals. If we stereotype them as criminals, we need to also stereotype them as victims. In regard to the overall argument, I think @Anorak makes a very a good argument indeed.
I'm arguing against stereotyping. You're the one who seems to think that the group someone belongs to is somehow a relevant factor in recruitment because such a person will "look like" them or make others feel that they are "one of us".
It was the black community that, when they realised how many young black men and women were victims of crime, demanded that the police do their job. Not that they have more black officers primarily but that those police officers, whatever their colour, do their job of dealing with such crime. Maybe - just maybe - the police's concern about how to behave, given the "institutionally racist" finding, made them both ultra cautious and/or scared of getting involved. They risked being accused of racism by both the victims (by neglecting them) and by the perpetrators.
The law of unintended consequences, maybe. Better for the police to have a laser like focus on crime than a focus on fending off accusations by those with multiple agendas, many of them nothing to do with the police's job.
Anyway, thank you for the discussion.
I am off to Paris early tomorrow with one of my favourite people in the world so I need my beauty sleep. If you don't hear from me for a bit it's because I intend having some fun!
Enjoy.
And fear not, even if you were on here battling away with your usual sensible and cogent prose, I'm not sure that those who think otherwise would be in any way swayed!
Trump is only popular because the left have spent 40 years closing down rational debate about immigration. People with mildly centre-right views on the subject have been labelled as racist during that time.
The gun toting rednecks being interviewed on the news earlier were not expressing 'mildly centre-right views'.
Sorry, this may have been mentioned, but is anyone else seeing a banner advert for Leave.EU about 'The Great British Fudge Off', promising commemorative fudge 'celebrating' Cameron's EU negotiations?
This far out, the campaign has already gotten weird.
'Trump is only popular because the left have spent 40 years closing down rational debate about immigration. People with mildly centre-right views on the subject have been labelled as racist during that time.'
Spot on, the Left's censorship of any discussion / debate connected with immigration / race relations has been second to none.
Sorry, this may have been mentioned, but is anyone else seeing a banner advert for Leave.EU about 'The Great British Fudge Off', promising commemorative fudge 'celebrating' Cameron's EU negotiations?
This far out, the campaign has already gotten weird.
No, but I had an email from the campaign today with the same title/slogan so if nothing else it's coordinated weirdness!
Jim Waterson @jimwaterson 4h4 hours ago Conservative opposition research fail shocker as it's revealed that Chicken Shop sells "free range rotisserie chicken", not fried chicken.
If we are going to do the pedantic stakes...Conservative opposition...they are in government and hold the Mayor...opposition?
As my old ma used to say,pride comes before a fall.
Why did she say that?
I'd have some respect for her if she'd quoted more accurately: "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall"
About 50 years ago.She didn't have your education or your superiority complex-in private service at the age of 14,"working for the so-called gentry" in the kitchen,another of her pearls of wisdom.Her Yorkshire pudding was magnificent too.
Trump is only popular because the left have spent 40 years closing down rational debate about immigration. People with mildly centre-right views on the subject have been labelled as racist during that time.
The gun toting rednecks being interviewed on the news earlier were not expressing 'mildly centre-right views'.
Of course not. Why do you think they were chosen to be put in the news report?
I'm arguing against stereotyping. You're the one who seems to think that the group someone belongs to is somehow a relevant factor in recruitment because such a person will "look like" them or make others feel that they are "one of us".
It was the black community that, when they realised how many young black men and women were victims of crime, demanded that the police do their job. Not that they have more black officers primarily but that those police officers, whatever their colour, do their job of dealing with such crime. Maybe - just maybe - the police's concern about how to behave, given the "institutionally racist" finding, made them both ultra cautious and/or scared of getting involved. They risked being accused of racism by both the victims (by neglecting them) and by the perpetrators.
The law of unintended consequences, maybe. Better for the police to have a laser like focus on crime than a focus on fending off accusations by those with multiple agendas, many of them nothing to do with the police's job.
Anyway, thank you for the discussion.
I am off to Paris early tomorrow with one of my favourite people in the world so I need my beauty sleep. If you don't hear from me for a bit it's because I intend having some fun!
I don't really see the basis for your argument in the BIB. It is the black community that would like to see more black officers - they see that as part of the police helping mend community relations, and thus 'doing their job'. I'm not buying this argument that we should not point out police racism so that the police are then 'scared' to get involved in Ethnic minority communities. If there had been no racism, there would be no issue in the first place. I don't agree it's the law of unintended consequences. Black people have always been victims of crime as much as they have been criminals. It hasn't bee created by a so-called 'law of unintended consequences', it's always been there and has just continued. I don't really see wanting to get more BME officers in the force, and interacting with local communities as 'stereotyping'. I don't just think,I've been told by many people who have experienced police racism.
Perhaps it is better for the police to focus on crime, as well as building relations with communities. After all, these accusations haven't just been made up by communities for decades on end. They've existed for a reason, and the only agenda is not being on the back of any discrimination or racism.
Thank you for the discussion, I hope you have a great trip Paris.
"I am off to Paris early tomorrow with one of my favourite people in the world ...."
Ah, ha! I knew it was to good to be true. For months Mrs Free has held us with her solid, powerfully argued and beautifully written ideas, and her cats. There had to be a flaw, a catch if you will, and now we have it. CycleFree is not only a Francophile but she likes Parisiens!
Gentlemen in England now abed will have to re-evaluate their views of Mrs. Free's posts in the morning or else hold their manhoods cheap.
I don't want to get into a battle of semantics, but I can't quite remember our collective revulsion against African christian sects that murdered children, and beat women to death to cure them off devils.
Yes, this was a fascinating example of how modern Britain handles such issues. At first anyone who raised the issue was claimed to be a racist - until a black academic raised it...
Even now, the LRA is a taboo subject - pushed down out of sight. Because they can. Interesting, isn't it?
Trump is only popular because the left have spent 40 years closing down rational debate about immigration. People with mildly centre-right views on the subject have been labelled as racist during that time.
The gun toting rednecks being interviewed on the news earlier were not expressing 'mildly centre-right views'.
Of course not. Why do you think they were chosen to be put in the news report?
No doubt if they had only shown members of the public who disagreed with Chump that would have been blatant left wing bias too.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.
There are three groups of people who - I think it is reasonable to assume - have significantly higher rates of child abuse:
1. The Asian communities in certain towns 2. The Catholic priesthood 3. MPs and Peers of the Realm
It doesn't take a genius to work out what all three groups have in common:
Same sex education. They thought they were immune from prosecution. The first group knew they would be protected because focussing on them would result in cries of "racism". The second knew that parishioners would not want to bring the Church into dis-repect. And the third were able to close down investigations.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.
There are three groups of people who - I think it is reasonable to assume - have significantly higher rates of child abuse:
1. The Asian communities in certain towns 2. The Catholic priesthood 3. MPs and Peers of the Realm
It doesn't take a genius to work out what all three groups have in common:
Same sex education. They thought they were immune from prosecution. The first group knew they would be protected because focussing on them would result in cries of "racism". The second knew that parishioners would not want to bring the Church into dis-repect. And the third were able to close down investigations.
Its never a good idea to work on the basis of being "reasonable to assume" anything.
I don't want to get into a battle of semantics, but I can't quite remember our collective revulsion against African christian sects that murdered children, and beat women to death to cure them off devils.
Yes, this was a fascinating example of how modern Britain handles such issues. At first anyone who raised the issue was claimed to be a racist - until a black academic raised it...
Even now, the LRA is a taboo subject - pushed down out of sight. Because they can. Interesting, isn't it?
The LRA is a barbaric organisation, but has not massacred Parisiens, British tourists, Russian schoolchildren, San Bernadino health workers or Spanish commuters. Let alone Lebanese shoppers, Nigerian schoolgirls, Pakistani mosque goers etc etc.
To try to pretend that all religions have their terrorists and are therefore equal is absurd. African Charismatic churches have some dubious practices but are not playing in the same league as the Wahabists.
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.
There are three groups of people who - I think it is reasonable to assume - have significantly higher rates of child abuse:
1. The Asian communities in certain towns 2. The Catholic priesthood 3. MPs and Peers of the Realm
It doesn't take a genius to work out what all three groups have in common:
Same sex education. They thought they were immune from prosecution. The first group knew they would be protected because focussing on them would result in cries of "racism". The second knew that parishioners would not want to bring the Church into dis-repect. And the third were able to close down investigations.
Its never a good idea to work on the basis of being "reasonable to assume" anything.
I think this is where the Sadiq chicken shop poster is going. The meme is that Sadiq says different things to his own beliefs when he thinks that is what the audience wants. So far so normal in politics, but the issue of Islamic extremism is pretty toxic for Sadiq. If he under does it then he plays into the hands of those suspicious of his links with Belmarsh prisoners, go too harsh and he becomes a sellout to his core vote.
For those who didn't believe that Ronald Reagan could ever be President. What will they do if Trump wins? www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmWLJmbytkk …
Reagan, former Governor of California? That Reagan? The Republican Governor of notoriously Democrat California (for 8 years!)? Why would anyone suggest he would or could 'never' be President?
All of those Kippers should make things interesting. If they push on they could even be the main opposition.
Interestingly Welsh labour's worst result was in 2007 when they had just 26 seats. Plaid were the main challengers. So a projected 27 seats may not be that bad, although I would be surprised if it goes lower than 28 seats. UKIP will be the ones to watch, but as we have noted with recent local and national results they do seem to have hit a high water mark so they may not be as successful as the polling suggests. Given the experience of Scotland, it is surprising that Plaid have gone so far backwards the last few years.
If Trump became POTUS & Sajid Javid became PM, would that mean our PM would be barred from America?
Is Javid a practising Muslim? Would that matter to Trump? Even he would make diplomatic exceptions surely, even if his plan was legal and workable.
I believe he is as much of a practising Muslim as I am.
He is married to a christian and their children are being brought up as christian I think. I'm not sure if he is agnostic or not. Lets face it is there any chance of Trump getting any of his wide eyed policies through both Houses of Congress and past the appeals to the Supreme Court if he were to be strangely elected as President? The republicans meanwhile are gifting at least a total of 16 straight years if the White House to the Democrats. It almost makes sense for a sane Republican to run as an Independent if the nomination process goes loopy.
I don't want to get into a battle of semantics, but I can't quite remember our collective revulsion against African christian sects that murdered children, and beat women to death to cure them off devils.
Yes, this was a fascinating example of how modern Britain handles such issues. At first anyone who raised the issue was claimed to be a racist - until a black academic raised it...
Even now, the LRA is a taboo subject - pushed down out of sight. Because they can. Interesting, isn't it?
The LRA is a barbaric organisation, but has not massacred Parisiens, British tourists, Russian schoolchildren, San Bernadino health workers or Spanish commuters. Let alone Lebanese shoppers, Nigerian schoolgirls, Pakistani mosque goers etc etc.
To try to pretend that all religions have their terrorists and are therefore equal is absurd. African Charismatic churches have some dubious practices but are not playing in the same league as the Wahabists.
No, but you can pretend they don't exist because they don't effect the average man in the street here. This prevents the awkwardness of people without a suntan judging those with a heavy one.... which is the ultimate sin, nowadays...
I don't want to get into a battle of semantics, but I can't quite remember our collective revulsion against African christian sects that murdered children, and beat women to death to cure them off devils.
Yes, this was a fascinating example of how modern Britain handles such issues. At first anyone who raised the issue was claimed to be a racist - until a black academic raised it...
Even now, the LRA is a taboo subject - pushed down out of sight. Because they can. Interesting, isn't it?
The LRA is a barbaric organisation, but has not massacred Parisiens, British tourists, Russian schoolchildren, San Bernadino health workers or Spanish commuters. Let alone Lebanese shoppers, Nigerian schoolgirls, Pakistani mosque goers etc etc.
To try to pretend that all religions have their terrorists and are therefore equal is absurd. African Charismatic churches have some dubious practices but are not playing in the same league as the Wahabists.
No, but you can pretend they don't exist because they don't effect the average man in the street here. This prevents the awkwardness of people without a suntan judging those with a heavy one.... which is the ultimate sin, nowadays...
I have never pretended they do not exist, and there was a very prominent social media campaign against the LRA and Kony some years ago:
Just got back, skim-reading the thread. What on earth has @The_Apocalypse done that has got everyone on his/her back??
Basically, I think we should have more BME and women in the police force. And I've said the police were historically racist in the past and that is why many communities mistrust them.
All of the police were historically racist?
As I said in a previous post, the report released after the Lawrence case concluded the police were institutionally racist.
It's thanks to the finding of "institutional racism" that we now have police turning a blind eye to child rape in Rotherham and other places.
There are three groups of people who - I think it is reasonable to assume - have significantly higher rates of child abuse:
1. The Asian communities in certain towns 2. The Catholic priesthood 3. MPs and Peers of the Realm
It doesn't take a genius to work out what all three groups have in common:
Same sex education. They thought they were immune from prosecution. The first group knew they would be protected because focussing on them would result in cries of "racism". The second knew that parishioners would not want to bring the Church into dis-repect. And the third were able to close down investigations.
Erm, have we decided that the BBC never did nothing or is it only Muslims and Catholics who abuse children?
It must have been a fun do... Someone should tell Corbyn not to do the jokes, McD as well. They don't even fit the bill as straight men which makes the pair a pretty useless double act.
An interesting situation has arose.... Nominations for a local government by election closed on monday, the day of poll is 7th January. The interesting bit is, that the address on the nomination papers is the council's civic centre, and on the last day of nominations was surrounded by fifteen foot of water.
It is possible that some candidates intended to hand in their nominations on the morning.
According the the electoral commission rules, the deadlines are set in law and they cannot be changed....
By the way, I'm in St Petersburg and Moscow for a few days for work, and there are gaps in the schedule so I can do a bit of sightseeing. I've been to Mosocw a couple of times and looked around a bit, but not to StP before. Any particular recommendations for either that go beyond the guidebook standards?
It must have been a fun do... Someone should tell Corbyn not to do the jokes, McD as well. They don't even fit the bill as straight men which makes the pair a pretty useless double act.
"I am off to Paris early tomorrow with one of my favourite people in the world ...."
Ah, ha! I knew it was to good to be true. For months Mrs Free has held us with her solid, powerfully argued and beautifully written ideas, and her cats. There had to be a flaw, a catch if you will, and now we have it. CycleFree is not only a Francophile but she likes Parisiens!
Gentlemen in England now abed will have to re-evaluate their views of Mrs. Free's posts in the morning or else hold their manhoods cheap.
Mr Llama - I cannot let this pass! In the absence of your good self, what is a girl to do?!
Anyway, nowhere did I say I was going with a Parisian. As to who will accompany me, well, my lips are sealed. Until Paris, anyway......
PS Never mind cats - it is my gloriously sensual and scented garden which will, squirrels willing, enthral me next spring....
think Khan should speak up for other unrepresented communities.
What on earth is an 'unrepresented' community?? We have universal franchise in this country, and government by democracy.
Everybody is as 'represented' as any human being in any society that has ever existed.
Unrepresented in terms of the Police Force. There are many out there who do not feel the Police represents them, and has their best interests at heart. And that's a big issue.
The purpose of the police is to uphold the law and maintain order not engage in identity politics.
Again see my reply to @taffys @taffys And if the police hadn't had an extensive history of racism in recent decades towards minorities in this country, that'd be a fine expectation. But the police have, in that history of racism - epitomised by the Stephen Lawrence case - damaged that relationship. And while most of the country is white, London especially is far more diverse.
If you lived in Nigeria and there was a white community, and people began discriminating against you, I'd expect that the Police would have to do something to restore that trust back, and re-build relationships.
You should move to Scotland. Here the police hate everyone who isn't wearing black spandex under a hi vis jacket.
They don't have time to be racist for being everythingist.
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
What's (not so) Gorgeous George Foulkes got to do with the Chancellor (who does appear to have got a bit bumptious in the last few days - rein it in Osborne, it'll end in tears)
On the timing of a second referendum - surely he's right to take SNP politicians, and the Scottish government White Paper at their word?
All of those Kippers should make things interesting. If they push on they could even be the main opposition.
Interestingly Welsh labour's worst result was in 2007 when they had just 26 seats. Plaid were the main challengers. So a projected 27 seats may not be that bad, although I would be surprised if it goes lower than 28 seats. UKIP will be the ones to watch, but as we have noted with recent local and national results they do seem to have hit a high water mark so they may not be as successful as the polling suggests. Given the experience of Scotland, it is surprising that Plaid have gone so far backwards the last few years.
Wales isn't a real country. So their people do not support Independence. It's absolutely pathetic but very, very Welsh.
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
What's (not so) Gorgeous George Foulkes got to do with the Chancellor (who does appear to have got a bit bumptious in the last few days - rein it in Osborne, it'll end in tears)
On the timing of a second referendum - surely he's right to take SNP politicians, and the Scottish government White Paper at their word?
A second referendum is beyond the remit of politicians choice. Election of a party with a referendum in its manifesto is all Scotland needs.
The Unionists can bugger off if they think they can stop it by canting an individuals words.
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
Now why would a Nat hold a grudge against the man who coined the term 'CyberNat'? :InnocentFace:
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
George Foulkes, Lord of the Realm, offcial of the Union, was guilty of assault of a police officer. Do you deny this? It is an established fact.
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
What's (not so) Gorgeous George Foulkes got to do with the Chancellor (who does appear to have got a bit bumptious in the last few days - rein it in Osborne, it'll end in tears)
On the timing of a second referendum - surely he's right to take SNP politicians, and the Scottish government White Paper at their word?
The Unionists can bugger off if they think they can stop it by canting an individuals words.
So if we cant believe the last Scottish Government White Paper, logically we shouldn't believe the next one?
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
George Foulkes, Lord of the Realm, offcial of the Union, was guilty of assault of a police officer. Do you deny this? It is an established fact.
But why bring it up on a topic about George Osborne?
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
Now why would a Nat hold a grudge against the man who coined the term 'CyberNat'? :InnocentFace:
The man who invented the term Cybernat, to castigate anyone who disagrees with him was found Guilty of Assault of a Police Officer.
I think insulting Quislings on the internet is less offensive than what the Loyalist's joy boy Foulkes was found guilty of in court.
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
George Foulkes, Lord of the Realm, offcial of the Union, was guilty of assault of a police officer. Do you deny this? It is an established fact.
But why bring it up on a topic about George Osborne?
Why do you see a difference between Loyalists named after a German monarch of the UK?
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
Now why would a Nat hold a grudge against the man who coined the term 'CyberNat'? :InnocentFace:
I think insulting Quislings on the internet
I love the CyberNat 'Hearts & Minds' campaign - may it enjoy as much success next time as it did last.....now away to bed with you or you'll have scotslass suggesting you are a Tory, are several different people, single or in need of sleep......
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
Now why would a Nat hold a grudge against the man who coined the term 'CyberNat'? :InnocentFace:
I think insulting Quislings on the internet
I love the CyberNat 'Hearts & Minds' campaign - may it enjoy as much success next time as it did last.....now away to bed with you or you'll have scotslass suggesting you are a Tory, are several different people, single or in need of sleep......
The funny thing is that you've been found out, Scotslass identified you as a Tory CCHQ sock puppet and here's the thing I don't get.
Why bother.
You're on a right wing blog, with multiple individuals posting on the "CarlottaVance" name, it's very clear that it's a Tory CCHQ account but it keeps going after it's discovered.
Isn't the whole point to try and stay undiscovered? Guess you all failed. And why bother on a blog like this. Just bizarre.
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
George Foulkes, Lord of the Realm, offcial of the Union, was guilty of assault of a police officer. Do you deny this? It is an established fact.
But why bring it up on a topic about George Osborne?
Why do you see a difference between Loyalists named after a German monarch of the UK?
How do you know either was 'named after a German monarch of the UK'?
In any case, Osborne was born "Gideon Oliver', which he didnt like, so at 13 he chose 'George' in honour of his war-hero grandfather...
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
Now why would a Nat hold a grudge against the man who coined the term 'CyberNat'? :InnocentFace:
I think insulting Quislings on the internet
I love the CyberNat 'Hearts & Minds' campaign - may it enjoy as much success next time as it did last.....now away to bed with you or you'll have scotslass suggesting you are a Tory, are several different people, single or in need of sleep......
You're on a right wing blog, with multiple individuals posting on the "CarlottaVance" name, it's very clear that it's a Tory CCHQ account but it keeps going after it's discovered.
Before you get into trouble with the mods (naughty step for accusing other posters of being multiple identities) I'm quite happy for OGH Jr to confirm that I have but one ID and post from an IP address which would be most unlikely for Tory CCHQ.......
I think sub-$40 oil must have led to a tin-foil shortage......
George Osborne ruled out another referendum on Scottish independence and called SNP MPs a “noisy and aggressive block”.
The Chancellor said there had been a “clear result” and there would not be another vote “at least for a generation”.
In comments that will anger the Scottish Nationalists he accused their new intake of “not trying to be part of the UK government, and that is a departure.”
Maybe George Foulkes should think back to his time being hauled through the courts for assault. Or the alcoholics nose he has developed, it doesn't bode well for his life expectancy.
So much irrelevant prejudice ignorance and high expectation not only in one post but in just two lines as well. Congratulations.
George Foulkes, Lord of the Realm, offcial of the Union, was guilty of assault of a police officer. Do you deny this? It is an established fact.
But why bring it up on a topic about George Osborne?
Why do you see a difference between Loyalists named after a German monarch of the UK?
How do you know either was 'named after a German monarch of the UK'?
In any case, Osborne was born "Gideon Oliver', which he didnt like, so at 13 he chose 'George' in honour of his war-hero grandfather...
Is it without the bounds of possibility that you may have been indulging in what Mr Foulkes has historically over-indulged in?
Dair is just an ignorant dipstick who thinks he he being terribly clever by labelling Unionists with a word that has bigoted paramilitary connotations. I feel sorry for Scotland that it has such defenders. I am sure it does not need them. Scotland is better than either malcolmg or Dair. It's also a damn sight better than Salmond and his minimum $110 oil price.
Comments
LVG a genius? Moyes' teams were better than this.
David Duke, the former imperial wizard of the Klu Klu Klan, was among a procession of white supremacists, who came to Mr Trump's defence on Tuesday
It's far natural to be able to identify with someone of a similar background to yours that to instinctively judge someone based on negative racial stereotypes. Those two comparisons are completely mismatched. The police are not there to make a community feel good, you are right. But it is important that communities feel they have trust in the police. Because that helps the police to do their jobs. If large communities do not trust the police, then that is a huge issue for them when it comes to enforcing the law. Not in the least because it means if people cannot trust the police, they do not feel they police are making them feel safe and secure. It is not about the police not dealing with people because they are 'like them'. That's certainly something I've never said or proposed. Whether many on PB like or not, the issue of communities not trusting the police is a big one, and far more complex than your last paragraph suggests.
I'm well aware of how big a problem trust in the police is for some communities. While I was still qualifying as a lawyer I did voluntary legal work for the North Ken Law Centre - Notting HIll/Ladbroke Grove before they became famous and trendy - and most of the clients were young black men, usually mixed race with one West Indian parent, often in care, and generally involved in drugs and muggings. They had done bad things but were not the worst guys I've met: lost souls largely, suffering from poor parenting, rubbish education. falling into gangs, but could be individually charming and deserved better. The police had to deal with them and their crimes over and over again and being a victim of their crimes was no fun. It was not a surprise that the police tended to take a jaundiced view of young black men nor that they, in their turn, had a jaundiced view of authority figures. They largely needed a father and some consistent and loving boundaries and discipline.
But the way for the police to earn trust is to behave well. Actions speak louder than words. And they speak even more loudly than simple appearances.
There is far too much sentimentality in our attitude to complex problems. And this focus on the appearance of things is one example of such sentimentality. It is not what the police look like that ultimately matters. It is how they behave. And that applies to all of them, whatever their background and personal characteristics. That is why we put them in uniform - so that they stop being Mr Mohammed Smith or whatever - and become Police Officer XYZ representing the forces of law and order in which we can all, whatever our background and personal characteristics, trust.
As always Ms Cyclefree, beautifully presented. Would ethnically matched communities and policemen be discriminatory in the appointment of the policemen, which is obviously the way the match would have to be made?
Plus the suspicion amongst many that the only reason Sturgeon turned up in Paris was to do her Christmas shopping.
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/leader-who-s-to-blame-for-forth-road-bridge-debacle-1-3969622
Some how, I suspect a lot of the selfies taken with the FM are going to be quietly deleted from a lot of phones over the next few weeks.
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11945/10093292/europa-league-success-could-save-premier-leagues-fourth-champions-league-spot
FM Nicola Sturgeon opens the new #Forthroadbridge crossing. https://t.co/ZmUjUTVZnN
It was the black community that, when they realised how many young black men and women were victims of crime, demanded that the police do their job. Not that they have more black officers primarily but that those police officers, whatever their colour, do their job of dealing with such crime. Maybe - just maybe - the police's concern about how to behave, given the "institutionally racist" finding, made them both ultra cautious and/or scared of getting involved. They risked being accused of racism by both the victims (by neglecting them) and by the perpetrators.
The law of unintended consequences, maybe. Better for the police to have a laser like focus on crime than a focus on fending off accusations by those with multiple agendas, many of them nothing to do with the police's job.
Anyway, thank you for the discussion.
I am off to Paris early tomorrow with one of my favourite people in the world so I need my beauty sleep. If you don't hear from me for a bit it's because I intend having some fun!
Bon voyage
And fear not, even if you were on here battling away with your usual sensible and cogent prose, I'm not sure that those who think otherwise would be in any way swayed!
https://twitter.com/craigawoodhouse/status/674354458252455936
This far out, the campaign has already gotten weird.
'Trump is only popular because the left have spent 40 years closing down rational debate about immigration. People with mildly centre-right views on the subject have been labelled as racist during that time.'
Spot on, the Left's censorship of any discussion / debate connected with immigration / race relations has been second to none.
Note: this is not an invitation to someone to post that front page.
Daniel Sturridge has been ruled out for several weeks due to a hamstring injury.
Had PBers mesmerised
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CK3pzV7XAAEhBZJ.jpg
Come on mocking headlines.
In all seriousness, they seem pretty confident of the upcoming announcement.
Corbyn mania - the surge, the surge, the surge. Going down faster than Man Utd.
Perhaps it is better for the police to focus on crime, as well as building relations with communities. After all, these accusations haven't just been made up by communities for decades on end. They've existed for a reason, and the only agenda is not being on the back of any discrimination or racism.
Thank you for the discussion, I hope you have a great trip Paris.
Donald Trump is 5/1 to be elected President #newsnight
Ah, ha! I knew it was to good to be true. For months Mrs Free has held us with her solid, powerfully argued and beautifully written ideas, and her cats. There had to be a flaw, a catch if you will, and now we have it. CycleFree is not only a Francophile but she likes Parisiens!
Gentlemen in England now abed will have to re-evaluate their views of Mrs. Free's posts in the morning or else hold their manhoods cheap.
Even now, the LRA is a taboo subject - pushed down out of sight. Because they can. Interesting, isn't it?
1. The Asian communities in certain towns
2. The Catholic priesthood
3. MPs and Peers of the Realm
It doesn't take a genius to work out what all three groups have in common:
Same sex education. They thought they were immune from prosecution. The first group knew they would be protected because focussing on them would result in cries of "racism". The second knew that parishioners would not want to bring the Church into dis-repect. And the third were able to close down investigations.
To try to pretend that all religions have their terrorists and are therefore equal is absurd. African Charismatic churches have some dubious practices but are not playing in the same league as the Wahabists.
Activist says Tory chair given bullying dossier in 2010
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35047074
'craigawoodhouse: Pulling no punches, @SadiqKhan accuses PM of "failing" to tackle extremism and putting Brits at risk. EXCL https://t.co/P7vTSPzFB1'
Are there two L's in bollocks ?
Lets face it is there any chance of Trump getting any of his wide eyed policies through both Houses of Congress and past the appeals to the Supreme Court if he were to be strangely elected as President?
The republicans meanwhile are gifting at least a total of 16 straight years if the White House to the Democrats. It almost makes sense for a sane Republican to run as an Independent if the nomination process goes loopy.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/mar/08/kony-2012-what-s-the-story
But while the LRA are a problem in central Africa, Islamic terrorism is a problem everywhere.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35046866
He is making Darren "sick note" Anderton look like a regular starter.
Tyson Fury: World heavyweight champion stripped of IBF title
He still has the other "world" titles, but it really does make a mockery of the sport.
Someone should tell Corbyn not to do the jokes, McD as well. They don't even fit the bill as straight men which makes the pair a pretty useless double act.
It is possible that some candidates intended to hand in their nominations on the morning.
According the the electoral commission rules, the deadlines are set in law and they cannot be changed....
I wonder how this one will play out...
http://40.media.tumblr.com/18d219e92eda940fdd4adca6816a174a/tumblr_nysnrvPxkn1v0d91ao1_1280.png
http://sadiqwatch.com
Holding Corbyn's Candidate to Account
Mr Llama - I cannot let this pass! In the absence of your good self, what is a girl to do?!
Anyway, nowhere did I say I was going with a Parisian. As to who will accompany me, well, my lips are sealed. Until Paris, anyway......
PS Never mind cats - it is my gloriously sensual and scented garden which will, squirrels willing, enthral me next spring....
Bonne nuit. Dormez bien, mes amis.
They don't have time to be racist for being everythingist.
On the timing of a second referendum - surely he's right to take SNP politicians, and the Scottish government White Paper at their word?
Congratulations.
The Unionists can bugger off if they think they can stop it by canting an individuals words.
But why bring it up on a topic about George Osborne?
I think insulting Quislings on the internet is less offensive than what the Loyalist's joy boy Foulkes was found guilty of in court.
Why bother.
You're on a right wing blog, with multiple individuals posting on the "CarlottaVance" name, it's very clear that it's a Tory CCHQ account but it keeps going after it's discovered.
Isn't the whole point to try and stay undiscovered? Guess you all failed. And why bother on a blog like this. Just bizarre.
In any case, Osborne was born "Gideon Oliver', which he didnt like, so at 13 he chose 'George' in honour of his war-hero grandfather...
The origin is Greek:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_(given_name)
Is it without the bounds of possibility that you may have been indulging in what Mr Foulkes has historically over-indulged in?
I think sub-$40 oil must have led to a tin-foil shortage......