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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,902
    edited July 2013
    GIN1138 said:

    Plato said:

    I'm late to this appalling 'gaffe' but he said this

    " “I mean there obviously are, in beautiful natural areas, worries about not just the drilling and the fracking, which I think are exaggerated, but about the trucks, and the delivery, and the roads, and the disturbance, and those about justified worries,” he said.

    “But there are large and uninhabited and desolate areas. Certainly in part of the North East where there’s plenty of room for fracking, well away from anybody’s residence where we could conduct without any kind of threat to the rural environment.”

    I'm struggling to see what's so bad about it if it helps create jobs - coal mining isn't exactly the most picturesque industry either.

    Indeed.

    I can't understand why everyone is so slow to embrace Shale Gas. It could provide unlimited, cheap, energy for decades, thousands of jobs directly and countless more employment opportunities indirectly, in some of the most deprived places in the country - We should get on with it ASAP, IMO.
    People have concerns about environmental damage and that it does nothing to reduce dependency on carbon fossil fuels. It just kicks the can down the road.

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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23507750

    Is it no wonder Weee Timmy admires German football. The management of Bayern has the same traits as that of the Labour Party....
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Plato said:

    I'm late to this appalling 'gaffe' but he said this

    " “I mean there obviously are, in beautiful natural areas, worries about not just the drilling and the fracking, which I think are exaggerated, but about the trucks, and the delivery, and the roads, and the disturbance, and those about justified worries,” he said.

    “But there are large and uninhabited and desolate areas. Certainly in part of the North East where there’s plenty of room for fracking, well away from anybody’s residence where we could conduct without any kind of threat to the rural environment.”

    I'm struggling to see what's so bad about it if it helps create jobs - coal mining isn't exactly the most picturesque industry either.

    Indeed.

    I can't understand why everyone is so slow to embrace Shale Gas. It could provide unlimited, cheap, energy for decades, thousands of jobs directly and countless more employment opportunities indirectly, in some of the most deprived places in the country - We should get on with it ASAP, IMO.

    You're missing the point.
    Shale Gas exploration has been licensed on the South Downs, Lord Howell is arguing that there are desolate and uninhabited areas of the NE (there aren't any licensed areas in the NE, no idea what he means by that)

    There are very few licensed vehicles in the North East, tim.

    Never stopped them driving.

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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711
    tim said:

    Neil said:

    Plato said:


    I wish they'd bugger off and let the locals have their own say.

    82% expressed the view that the Parish Council should oppose fracking.

    http://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fracking-poll-results.pdf
    Presumably they would say the same about any housing developments etc being built nearby..
    And Osbornes twit of a father in law is saying the same about the entire South.

    I'm not really defending him. There's plenty of places both North and south which fracking should be considered.
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    carlcarl Posts: 750
    Neil said:

    Plato said:


    I wish they'd bugger off and let the locals have their own say.

    82% expressed the view that the Parish Council should oppose fracking.

    http://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fracking-poll-results.pdf
    LOL!

    Perhaps by "locals" Plato means "me".
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Neil said:

    Plato said:


    I wish they'd bugger off and let the locals have their own say.

    82% expressed the view that the Parish Council should oppose fracking.

    http://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fracking-poll-results.pdf
    Presumably they would say the same about any housing developments etc being built nearby..
    Balcombe used to have the most wonderful railway station smothered in flowers,hanging baskets and bedding plants - then some H&S clipboard wielder moaned that it wasn't authorised or something like it and it was stopped.

    This sums up a certain mentality to me.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    "The question the North East needs to answer is whether it is possible to frack while sitting on a sofa and watching Sky TV."

    It's also naive to lump everybody north of the wash into some lumpen 'its grim up North' mass.

    I'm sure people in the north west, or yorkshire, have no special regard for those in the north east.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    tim said:

    Neil said:

    Plato said:


    I wish they'd bugger off and let the locals have their own say.

    82% expressed the view that the Parish Council should oppose fracking.

    http://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fracking-poll-results.pdf
    Presumably they would say the same about any housing developments etc being built nearby..
    And Osbornes twit of a father in law is saying the same about the entire South.

    I'm not really defending him. There's plenty of places both North and south which fracking should be considered.

    And Lord Twit is ruling out the south.
    He's such a twit that he can't see why that might help anti fracking arguments.
    Plenty of respect for the North East down South.

    Isn't Pippa dating a Percy?

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    NextNext Posts: 826
    tim said:

    tim said:

    Neil said:

    Plato said:


    I wish they'd bugger off and let the locals have their own say.

    82% expressed the view that the Parish Council should oppose fracking.

    http://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fracking-poll-results.pdf
    Presumably they would say the same about any housing developments etc being built nearby..
    And Osbornes twit of a father in law is saying the same about the entire South.

    I'm not really defending him. There's plenty of places both North and south which fracking should be considered.

    And Lord Twit is ruling out the south.
    He's such a twit that he can't see why that might help anti fracking arguments.
    Lots of people (on both left and right) have made comments for and against fracking.

    Why does this one bother you so much?
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Next said:


    Why does this one bother you so much?

    Why do you think it bothers, tim? I'm pretty sure it's made his day.
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    Incentivise them with say 25% of the revenue?
    Neil said:

    Plato said:


    I wish they'd bugger off and let the locals have their own say.

    82% expressed the view that the Parish Council should oppose fracking.

    http://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fracking-poll-results.pdf
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Meanwhile, commentisfree wins the "Headline of the Day" competition:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/30/penis-toaster-message-fire-brigade-fiftyshadesofred
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    carlcarl Posts: 750
    Plato said:

    Neil said:

    Plato said:


    I wish they'd bugger off and let the locals have their own say.

    82% expressed the view that the Parish Council should oppose fracking.

    http://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fracking-poll-results.pdf
    Presumably they would say the same about any housing developments etc being built nearby..
    Balcombe used to have the most wonderful railway station smothered in flowers,hanging baskets and bedding plants - then some H&S clipboard wielder moaned that it wasn't authorised or something like it and it was stopped.

    This sums up a certain mentality to me.
    OK, NOW I'm confused. "I wish they'd have the mentality to put the pretty hanging baskets back, oh, and build a massive dirty fracking rig"
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,975
    The North-East has some of the largest and lowest density populated counties on the whole of England. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_counties

    Taken as a whole, he is obviously NOT referring to the middle of Newcastle, Hull, Sunderland or Middlesborough (Or other large urban) conurbations, rather the large areas of open geography outside these areas (North Yorkshire, Northumberland) where the shale would be found. Note he uses the word 'uninhabited' in the same sentence.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/desolate

    @ 'solitary; lonely: a desolate place.' is the intended meaning no doubt.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    Neil said:

    Next said:


    Why does this one bother you so much?

    Why do you think it bothers, tim? I'm pretty sure it's made his day.

    Along with discovering that Daves TripAdvisor hospital ratings are based on 3 people it has amused me somewhat, you are a fine detective.
    What would be a valid response rate?

    13,000?

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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    There's plenty of shale gas under Lancashire, Merseyside and Cheshire, so let's get fracking. Hopefully, the NIMBYs will keep quiet. They tend to be the poshos anyway.

    I thought the Sussex ones fitted the stereotypes - a few locals and loads of hangers-on, and the sight of children parading around with banners they didn't understand completed the picture.

    Mind you, wine merchants tend to be posh fops, so I hope they don't get involved in the north-west
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Maybe that's why they are called the South Downs..any fracking gas under there then?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,975
    MaxPB said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Drive the A66 from Penrith to Scotch corner.

    Desolate - by anyone's book.

    Nice bit of fracking will give a welcome boost to the local economy.

    There's no point in finding somwhere you consider desolate in the North and imagining there's shale gas underneath it just becasue a Troy twit has put his foot in it.

    Here are the licensed areas for Shale gas exploration/

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/03/article-2227344-15D4713A000005DC-573_306x522.jpg

    Which desolate areas in the NE can you see?
    Hull and Blackpool will be immeasurably improved by fracking.
    Since when was Blackpool in the North-East, by any definition o_O ?!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,000
    F1: India dropped from the 2014 calendar, will return in 2015 in the initial bunch of fly-aways:
    http://www.espn.co.uk/india/motorsport/story/119165.html

    Apparently there's a five year deal which should take it to 2016. Given the mood music it'd be unsurprising if it were axed after that.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    tim,

    "I'm a replace NIMBY's with immigrants man myself."

    You've probably lost your posh fop membership then.

    The problem is as ever that the media give less time to a Professor of Geology than to a concerned mother who "knows" better.
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    On 31st July the US will be reworking GDP calculations by reclassifying R&D spending as an investment rather than as an expense. It's a very good idea and presumably everyone else will follow suit at some stage. Our companies' relative reluctance to spend on R£D will then become more of an issue; which will be good news as it may lead to some serious efforts and initiatives to change what is a pretty poor state of affairs. someone on here was posting about the UK's management class the other day. Its short-termism and saving money at all costs approach has really held us back over the years in my view.

    Need to be very careful when classifying "investment" - Labour called all expenditure as investment when in fact we know that much of it was sprayed up the wall.

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    Recently spent few days in Wrexham Maelor. Had first class treatment and a consultant who was available anytime. Thank you Labour Wales Government.
    Can I post this on Trip Advisor?
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2013
    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    "Yes, you were wrong. All the people you mention had more than a minimal chance of becoming PM, especially Kinnock."

    Incorrect.

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    Since 1964 I have never been wrong about those who I considered to be a future Prime Minister and those who would clearly have minimal to zero chance of becoming the Queen's First Lord of the Treasury in contested elections.

    Wilson .. Heath .. Thatcher .. Blair and Cameron - Not difficult.

    Foot .. Kinnock .. Hague .. IDS .. Howard .. Miliband - Hardly rocket science.

    And John Smith would have been PM in 1997.

    You noted Kinnock in particular. Even Kinnock knew on the Sunday before polling in 1992 that he would lose. He noted that voters would no longer "look me in the eye". The only difference is that many of us knew it many years before.

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    Time for a bit of Etonian on Etonian

    @BBCNormanS: Archbishop of Cantebury @abcjustin joins in criticism of Tory peer Lord Howell over "desolate" North east -"NE beatiful,rugged, welcoming"

    It might be "beautiful, rugged and welcoming" but I bet the Church Commissioners don't invest there.

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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @JackW

    But even on the output of your pert ARSE Ed isnt *that* far away from ending up in a position where he is PM with Lib Dem (and possibly other) support.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    Time for a bit of Etonian on Etonian

    @BBCNormanS: Archbishop of Cantebury @abcjustin joins in criticism of Tory peer Lord Howell over "desolate" North east -"NE beatiful,rugged, welcoming"

    It might be "beautiful, rugged and welcoming" but I bet the Church Commissioners don't invest there.

    That ABCWelby chose to stick his size 9s in here looks a lot a squirrel to me.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    FPT:

    I think the Tories should concentrate on Europe and Immigration. That is where their true strength lies and what their supporters would like them to do.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,016
    edited July 2013
    AveryLP said:


    It might be "beautiful, rugged and welcoming" but I bet the Church Commissioners don't invest there.

    They do (well they send money there annually) as its the only way to keep the Dioceses going.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    AveryLP said:

    It might be "beautiful, rugged and welcoming" but I bet the Church Commissioners don't invest there.

    They will once the fracking gets going!
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    AveryLP said:

    It might be "beautiful, rugged and welcoming" but I bet the Church Commissioners don't invest there.

    They will once the fracking gets going!
    Only if fracking contains less than 3% pornography ;^ )
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    2012 election in Woking's Maybury and Sheerwater ward has been ruled void by a Court because of corrupt and illegal practices used by the winning candidate. In the original election, Liberal Democrat Mohammed Bashir defeated Labour Mohammad Ali by 16 votes.

    A fresh election will be held soon.
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    The Tory's are making fools of themselves ever time they open their mouths at the moment. I am quite happy for them to talk about the NHS as every sane person in this country knows they are fecking it up.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    2012 election in Woking's Maybury and Sheerwater ward has been ruled void by a Court because of corrupt and illegal practices used by the winning candidate. In the original election, Liberal Democrat Mohammed Bashir defeated Labour Mohammad Ali by 16 votes.

    A fresh election will be held soon.

    Do we know what the winner did to break the rules?
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Pulpstar said:

    The North-East has some of the largest and lowest density populated counties on the whole of England. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_counties

    Taken as a whole, he is obviously NOT referring to the middle of Newcastle, Hull, Sunderland or Middlesborough (Or other large urban) conurbations, rather the large areas of open geography outside these areas (North Yorkshire, Northumberland) where the shale would be found. Note he uses the word 'uninhabited' in the same sentence.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/desolate

    @ 'solitary; lonely: a desolate place.' is the intended meaning no doubt.

    There are plenty of uninhabited places in Sussex too. Let's get fracking !!
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    carlcarl Posts: 750
    JackW said:

    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    "Yes, you were wrong. All the people you mention had more than a minimal chance of becoming PM, especially Kinnock."

    Incorrect.

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    Since 1964 I have never been wrong about those who I considered to be a future Prime Minister and those who would clearly have minimal to zero chance of becoming the Queen's First Lord of the Treasury in contested elections.

    Yeah, OK. You won't enter into a bet. But, with no obligation of a wager, tell us roughly what chance (in numerical terms, decimal or fraction) you think Ed Miliband has of being next PM.

    1/1,000,000,000? Is that close enough to "minimal or zero"?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    . I am quite happy for them to talk about the NHS as every sane person in this country knows they are fecking it up.

    Unlike Wales where Labour are taking the NHS on to new heights?

    Keep up the good work...
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    We already are.
    surbiton said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The North-East has some of the largest and lowest density populated counties on the whole of England. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_counties

    Taken as a whole, he is obviously NOT referring to the middle of Newcastle, Hull, Sunderland or Middlesborough (Or other large urban) conurbations, rather the large areas of open geography outside these areas (North Yorkshire, Northumberland) where the shale would be found. Note he uses the word 'uninhabited' in the same sentence.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/desolate

    @ 'solitary; lonely: a desolate place.' is the intended meaning no doubt.

    There are plenty of uninhabited places in Sussex too. Let's get fracking !!
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711

    The Tory's are making fools of themselves ever time they open their mouths at the moment. I am quite happy for them to talk about the NHS as every sane person in this country knows they are fecking it up.

    Wouldn't want to be getting ill in those valleys under the NHS in Wales...
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    carl said:

    JackW said:

    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    "Yes, you were wrong. All the people you mention had more than a minimal chance of becoming PM, especially Kinnock."

    Incorrect.

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    Since 1964 I have never been wrong about those who I considered to be a future Prime Minister and those who would clearly have minimal to zero chance of becoming the Queen's First Lord of the Treasury in contested elections.

    What chance (in numerical terms, decimal or fraction) you think Ed Miliband has of being next PM?

    1/1,000,000,000? Is that close enough to "minimal or zero"?
    Another trio of noughts and that starts to look value, Carl.

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    RedRag1RedRag1 Posts: 527
    Wonder if Cameron will send the Lord of wherever up to the north east like Howard send Johnson to Liverpool?
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    carlcarl Posts: 750
    AveryLP said:

    carl said:

    JackW said:

    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    "Yes, you were wrong. All the people you mention had more than a minimal chance of becoming PM, especially Kinnock."

    Incorrect.

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    Since 1964 I have never been wrong about those who I considered to be a future Prime Minister and those who would clearly have minimal to zero chance of becoming the Queen's First Lord of the Treasury in contested elections.

    What chance (in numerical terms, decimal or fraction) you think Ed Miliband has of being next PM?

    1/1,000,000,000? Is that close enough to "minimal or zero"?
    Another trio of noughts and that starts to look value, Carl.

    Do you bet?
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited July 2013
    @Plato

    False names or people (relatives and friends of the candidate) living somewhere else enrolled in the electoral register and fake signatures on postal votes.

    http://www.wokinglabour.org/docs/Woking_Electoral_Fraud_Case.pdf
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    carl said:

    JackW said:

    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    "Yes, you were wrong. All the people you mention had more than a minimal chance of becoming PM, especially Kinnock."

    Incorrect.

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    Since 1964 I have never been wrong about those who I considered to be a future Prime Minister and those who would clearly have minimal to zero chance of becoming the Queen's First Lord of the Treasury in contested elections.

    Yeah, OK. You won't enter into a bet. But, with no obligation of a wager, tell us roughly what chance (in numerical terms, decimal or fraction) you think Ed Miliband has of being next PM.

    1/1,000,000,000? Is that close enough to "minimal or zero"?
    NONE.

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    carl said:

    AveryLP said:

    carl said:

    JackW said:

    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    "Yes, you were wrong. All the people you mention had more than a minimal chance of becoming PM, especially Kinnock."

    Incorrect.

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    Since 1964 I have never been wrong about those who I considered to be a future Prime Minister and those who would clearly have minimal to zero chance of becoming the Queen's First Lord of the Treasury in contested elections.

    What chance (in numerical terms, decimal or fraction) you think Ed Miliband has of being next PM?

    1/1,000,000,000? Is that close enough to "minimal or zero"?
    Another trio of noughts and that starts to look value, Carl.

    Do you bet?
    Not on known losers.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Words you don't often see all together in the same place - in Liverpool FC, saying 'man-up' is considered offensive.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BQbv5MHCQAEvLX_.jpg:large
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    @Plato

    False names or people (relatives and friends of the candidate) living somewhere else enrolled in the electoral register and fake signatures on postal votes.

    http://www.wokinglabour.org/docs/Woking_Electoral_Fraud_Case.pdf

    Ah, that's very naughty - no wriggle room there.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,041
    This is off topic, and may well have been dealt with earlier today but how come Vicky Pryce loses her honour yet it's still Lords Archer and Hanningfield?
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    @Plato

    False names or people (relatives and friends of the candidate) living somewhere else enrolled in the electoral register and fake signatures on postal votes.

    http://www.wokinglabour.org/docs/Woking_Electoral_Fraud_Case.pdf

    Do we have a comment from Mark Senior?

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,000
    King Cole, I believe honours are a different bag of monkeys to peerages. Could be wrong, though.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    JackW said:

    carl said:

    JackW said:

    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    "Yes, you were wrong. All the people you mention had more than a minimal chance of becoming PM, especially Kinnock."

    Incorrect.

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    Since 1964 I have never been wrong about those who I considered to be a future Prime Minister and those who would clearly have minimal to zero chance of becoming the Queen's First Lord of the Treasury in contested elections.

    Yeah, OK. You won't enter into a bet. But, with no obligation of a wager, tell us roughly what chance (in numerical terms, decimal or fraction) you think Ed Miliband has of being next PM.

    1/1,000,000,000? Is that close enough to "minimal or zero"?
    NONE.

    That'll be about 1/65*10^6 then :-)
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    Plato said:

    2012 election in Woking's Maybury and Sheerwater ward has been ruled void by a Court because of corrupt and illegal practices used by the winning candidate. In the original election, Liberal Democrat Mohammed Bashir defeated Labour Mohammad Ali by 16 votes.

    A fresh election will be held soon.

    Do we know what the winner did to break the rules?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-23503210

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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited July 2013
    Indeed he isn't. For one thing, Ed Miliband is yet another male establishment figure in a long line of Labour Leaders. As of 2013, and nearly forty years after Maggie won a leadership contest in that great male bastion of the Conservative party, Labour has still failed to elect a female leader. Maggie broke the political glass ceiling in UK politics by becoming the first female leader of the Conservative party, Ed on the other hand, was and remains the Unions anyone but David choice in the Labour contest.

    You simple cannot compare their polling in Opposition nearly forty years apart without that context, it simple not comparing like with like. I suspect that back then, Maggie's achievements may have divided opinion, but it gave her a perception of strength as a female politician, as well as an Opposition Leader who aspired to become the UK's first female PM. Ed Miliband is currently perceived as weak and *effectual in the polls, and without any ground breaking positives going for him to counter this current perception he will continue to struggle between now and the next GE.

    *edit

    Ed Miliband is no Maggie...

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    carlcarl Posts: 750
    JackW said:

    carl said:

    JackW said:

    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    "Yes, you were wrong. All the people you mention had more than a minimal chance of becoming PM, especially Kinnock."

    Incorrect.

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    Since 1964 I have never been wrong about those who I considered to be a future Prime Minister and those who would clearly have minimal to zero chance of becoming the Queen's First Lord of the Treasury in contested elections.

    Yeah, OK. You won't enter into a bet. But, with no obligation of a wager, tell us roughly what chance (in numerical terms, decimal or fraction) you think Ed Miliband has of being next PM.

    1/1,000,000,000? Is that close enough to "minimal or zero"?
    NONE.

    So the true odds of Ed Miliband being next PM should be infinity/1 rather than around 4/6.

    You heard it from a poster on 'Political Betting' first, folks.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    This is off topic, and may well have been dealt with earlier today but how come Vicky Pryce loses her honour yet it's still Lords Archer and Hanningfield?

    It's something to do with the Lords awards system isn't it and how they censure or rather don't. Lord Taylor is another one who served time. Whatever happened to the Scottish one who set fire to a hotel??
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    This from YOUGOV says 'see the full poll results':

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/07/30/majority-say-immigration-vans-not-racist/

    YouGov are required to publish the detail within two working days


    tim said:

    OGH tweets:

    Still waiting for @YouGov to publish the detail from their immigration van ad polling

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/fjbakrwrnl/YouGov-Sun-results-130729-Immigration-Van.pdf

    There this morning....

    Thats not the detail, it's the party/regional/age breakdown which they haven't published.

    On a 733 base size I doubt they'll publish them.....do you?

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    This is off topic, and may well have been dealt with earlier today but how come Vicky Pryce loses her honour yet it's still Lords Archer and Hanningfield?

    From HoL website FAQs:

    Can a Member lose his or her peerage or membership?

    A peerage is created by Letters Patent and it can only be removed by an Act of Parliament.

    The last time a peerage was removed was in 1917 under the Titles Deprivation Act, which provided for peers who fought against the Crown in the First World War – and thus were guilty of treason – to be deprived of their titles.

    Members convicted of a crime and sent to jail cannot sit due to their imprisonment but do not lose their peerage or membership (ie sitting and voting resumes when the custodial sentence finishes).

    A Member who is declared bankrupt under the Insolvency Act 1986 is disqualified from sitting and voting in the House during the period of bankruptcy. Once the period is over he or she can resume sitting and voting.

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Tories trying to cover their arses again,

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-23500027

    Go, go, go UKIP!
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    JackW said:

    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    That is logically wrong ! If you hold the winning slip in your hand, then the outcome is certain - 100%. Before the outcome, there will be always be odds, however small or large.

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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2013
    carl said:

    JackW said:

    carl said:

    JackW said:

    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    "Yes, you were wrong. All the people you mention had more than a minimal chance of becoming PM, especially Kinnock."

    Incorrect.

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    Since 1964 I have never been wrong about those who I considered to be a future Prime Minister and those who would clearly have minimal to zero chance of becoming the Queen's First Lord of the Treasury in contested elections.

    Yeah, OK. You won't enter into a bet. But, with no obligation of a wager, tell us roughly what chance (in numerical terms, decimal or fraction) you think Ed Miliband has of being next PM.

    1/1,000,000,000? Is that close enough to "minimal or zero"?
    NONE.

    So the true odds of Ed Miliband being next PM should be infinity/1 rather than around 4/6.

    You heard it from a poster on 'Political Betting' first, folks.
    To be precise, you heard it first from a poster who is reigning "Political Betting Tipster of the Year" for the past 5 years.

    Just saying "folks"

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,975

    On 31st July the US will be reworking GDP calculations by reclassifying R&D spending as an investment rather than as an expense. It's a very good idea and presumably everyone else will follow suit at some stage. Our companies' relative reluctance to spend on R£D will then become more of an issue; which will be good news as it may lead to some serious efforts and initiatives to change what is a pretty poor state of affairs. someone on here was posting about the UK's management class the other day. Its short-termism and saving money at all costs approach has really held us back over the years in my view.

    Personally I'd rather we handled research and development in accordance with IAS 38: http://www.iasplus.com/en/standards/ias/ias38 I wish the states would too. Homogenized accounting standards allow for easier international tax agreements and so forth. I thought under US GAAP that they already classified R&D as an investment at any rate.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    surbiton said:

    JackW said:

    @edmundintokyo wrote :

    Odds are only ever relevant if you hold the winning slip !!

    That is logically wrong ! If you hold the winning slip in your hand, then the outcome is certain - 100%. Before the outcome, there will be always be odds, however small or large.

    Whenever I wager to win I'm always certain I'll collect.

    Why would one bet to lose unless you're Gordon Brown flogging off the nations gold reserves ?!?

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Another two found guilty - in addition to the two struck off so far. They didn't bother to read the patient's notes.

    BBC Radio Stoke @BBCRadioStoke
    Two nurses who failed to spot that a patient who died at Stafford Hospital was diabetic - have been found guilty of misconduct.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,377
    "Mr. Miliband, I served with Margaret Thatcher. I knew Margaret Thatcher. Margaret Thatcher was a friend of mine. Mr. Miliband, you're no Margaret Thatcher."

    :)
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,939
    GIN1138 said:

    @Plato,

    I wonder if, before they started using coal to power the industrial revolution, whether NIMBYS, hand-wringers and luvvies tried to hold up the advancement of society because they thought the mines might spoil the "natural beauty" of the countryside and knock a few thousand off their house prices? ;)

    There was a 'Long View' programme on R4 recently which looked at exactly this issue. As I remember there was little problem with coal because most of the mines were sunk on land owned by aristocrats. The Fitzwilliams were a case in point in my part of the world.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    Pulpstar said:

    On 31st July the US will be reworking GDP calculations by reclassifying R&D spending as an investment rather than as an expense. It's a very good idea and presumably everyone else will follow suit at some stage. Our companies' relative reluctance to spend on R£D will then become more of an issue; which will be good news as it may lead to some serious efforts and initiatives to change what is a pretty poor state of affairs. someone on here was posting about the UK's management class the other day. Its short-termism and saving money at all costs approach has really held us back over the years in my view.

    Personally I'd rather we handled research and development in accordance with IAS 38: http://www.iasplus.com/en/standards/ias/ias38 I wish the states would too. Homogenized accounting standards allow for easier international tax agreements and so forth. I thought under US GAAP that they already classified R&D as an investment at any rate.
    Here is a good Businessweek article on the changes to GDP calculation being implemented by the US Bureau for Economic Analysis:

    http://buswk.co/12CcmCJ

    The article covers the main arguments in favour of the change, dating back to Schumpeter's theories on intangibles in the mid 20th century.

    The immediate impact of the change is covered in this paragraph:

    The effect of the revision will be immediate. Measured GDP will get a one-time boost of about 2.7 percent when the government starts counting R&D and artistic creation as investments. (New Mexico and Maryland will get the biggest lifts.) The future growth rate will probably be fractionally higher, too. With R&D treated as an investment, measured economic growth from 1959 to 2007 would have been 3.39 percent annually instead of 3.32 percent, the BEA estimates.

    It might be a good idea for George to get the ONS to follow suit. If for no better reason than annoying Balls and the lefties in the run up to the 2015 GE.

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I don't suppose now would be a good moment to mention Speaker Beckett.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited July 2013
    Those are not the full results as required under the British Polling Council code of conduct

    I can't understand why they haven't been published - I was promised them during the day.

    They have two working days following publication of the poll, which was last night, so I would expect to see it tomorrow.



    This from YOUGOV says 'see the full poll results':

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/07/30/majority-say-immigration-vans-not-racist/

    YouGov are required to publish the detail within two working days


    tim said:

    OGH tweets:

    Still waiting for @YouGov to publish the detail from their immigration van ad polling

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/fjbakrwrnl/YouGov-Sun-results-130729-Immigration-Van.pdf

    There this morning....

    Thats not the detail, it's the party/regional/age breakdown which they haven't published.

    On a 733 base size I doubt they'll publish them.....do you?

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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    antifrank said:

    I don't suppose now would be a good moment to mention Speaker Beckett.

    Why ever not? *innocent face*


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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    antifrank said:

    I don't suppose now would be a good moment to mention Speaker Beckett.

    I think you'll find she didn't win .... You didn't back her did you ?!? ... I think she was last seen canvassing in Watford during the last general election ....

    A fool and his money .... a fool and his money ....

    Titters

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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    According to Wikipedia, that fracking tory is Jeffreys father in law.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    James Tapsfield ‏@JamesTapsfield 6m
    Lord Howell apologises "for any offence caused" by fracking comments, insists he does not believe North East is "desolate"

    So that's over then

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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    This is a comment on the YouGov site over the van posters


    "Also why's this van not outside big businesses saying; "Do you pay your corporation tax? If not text this number and we'll help you pay or remove your business from this country!"
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    On fracking in 'desolate' areas - I really can't see the problem. If they want to frack, let 'em frack, What's it got to do with a tory in London?

    All that's left to discuss is what cut of the profits london gets. I thought 1% sounded a little high, personally.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    This is a comment on the YouGov site over the van posters


    "Also why's this van not outside big businesses saying; "Do you pay your corporation tax? If not text this number and we'll help you pay or remove your business from this country!"

    Labour party hq would be an appropriate spot too !
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,377
    Mike, you do realise the vans say "illegal immigrants"?
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    TGOHF said:

    This is a comment on the YouGov site over the van posters


    "Also why's this van not outside big businesses saying; "Do you pay your corporation tax? If not text this number and we'll help you pay or remove your business from this country!"

    Labour party hq would be an appropriate spot too !
    Why ?

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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Next

    'Lots of people (on both left and right) have made comments for and against fracking.

    Why does this one bother you so much?'

    It's because it was made by a Tory public school twit..

    Strange though when a Labour public school twit referred to voters as trash,there was a deathly silence from wee Timmy.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    TGOHF said:

    This is a comment on the YouGov site over the van posters


    "Also why's this van not outside big businesses saying; "Do you pay your corporation tax? If not text this number and we'll help you pay or remove your business from this country!"

    Labour party hq would be an appropriate spot too !
    Why ?

    Why not?

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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    AveryLP said:

    TGOHF said:

    This is a comment on the YouGov site over the van posters


    "Also why's this van not outside big businesses saying; "Do you pay your corporation tax? If not text this number and we'll help you pay or remove your business from this country!"

    Labour party hq would be an appropriate spot too !
    Why ?

    Why not?

    Because if there is no sensible reason they may as well park a van outside your home .

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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,377

    AveryLP said:

    TGOHF said:

    This is a comment on the YouGov site over the van posters


    "Also why's this van not outside big businesses saying; "Do you pay your corporation tax? If not text this number and we'll help you pay or remove your business from this country!"

    Labour party hq would be an appropriate spot too !
    Why ?

    Why not?

    Because if there is no sensible reason they may as well park a van outside your home .

    You never heard of the JML man?
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    TGOHF said:

    This is a comment on the YouGov site over the van posters


    "Also why's this van not outside big businesses saying; "Do you pay your corporation tax? If not text this number and we'll help you pay or remove your business from this country!"

    Labour party hq would be an appropriate spot too !
    Why ?

    Why not?

    Because if there is no sensible reason they may as well park a van outside your home .

    I'd just send it on to Woking to catch some real criminals.

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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    AveryLP said:

    TGOHF said:

    This is a comment on the YouGov site over the van posters


    "Also why's this van not outside big businesses saying; "Do you pay your corporation tax? If not text this number and we'll help you pay or remove your business from this country!"

    Labour party hq would be an appropriate spot too !
    Why ?

    Why not?

    Because if there is no sensible reason they may as well park a van outside your home .

    You never heard of the JML man?
    Nope

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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Thanks for that post Plato, really puts this isolated 'quote' back into some context. Although I must admit that I was struggling to understand all the fuss anyway, maybe its because I live up in the real North of Scotland. :)
    Plato said:

    I'm late to this appalling 'gaffe' but he said this

    " “I mean there obviously are, in beautiful natural areas, worries about not just the drilling and the fracking, which I think are exaggerated, but about the trucks, and the delivery, and the roads, and the disturbance, and those about justified worries,” he said.

    “But there are large and uninhabited and desolate areas. Certainly in part of the North East where there’s plenty of room for fracking, well away from anybody’s residence where we could conduct without any kind of threat to the rural environment.”

    I'm struggling to see what's so bad about it if it helps create jobs - coal mining isn't exactly the most picturesque industry either.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,358
    edited July 2013

    Incentivise them with say 25% of the revenue?

    Neil said:

    Plato said:


    I wish they'd bugger off and let the locals have their own say.

    82% expressed the view that the Parish Council should oppose fracking.

    http://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fracking-poll-results.pdf
    Yes, on a non-political note I wonder why this isn't done more. It's commonplace in Denmark with communal licences, and accounts for the facts that wind turbines are ubiquitous - nearly every community was keen to get a share. And it's reasonable, really, isn't it? If you want to build a fracking well outside my window, of course I'll object. If you offer me £1000 to agree, I might warm to the idea.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    @kiranstacey: Interesting that Lord Howell made his comments in context of a discussion about NW. Did he mean to insult a different region altogether?

    It would explain it, there are lots of fracking sites licensed in the NW and none in the NE.

    Eton geography dept strikes again.

    The battle was won on the playing fields of Eltham said a spokesman.

    tim

    I think Lord Howell was trying to emulate Macmillan:

    It breaks my heart to see—and I cannot interfere—what is happening in our country today. There is the growing division of Conservative prosperity in the south and the ailing north and Midlands. We used to have battles and rows but they were quarrels. Now there is a new kind of wicked hatred that has been brought in by different types of people. We must move the fracking rigs from Goodwood to Northumberland. The Geordies, the best men in the world, who beat the Kaiser's and Hitler's armies, need the dignity of work and the reward of our earthly riches".

    Great Tories are always deliberately misunderstood.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    edited July 2013

    Mike, you do realise the vans say "illegal immigrants"?

    No they don't.

    They say 'In the UK Illegally?'..

    ...the word 'immigrant' does not appear....

    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/7/26/1374860544056/In-the-UK-illegally-mobil-008.jpg

    I guess that's why the Great British Public did not reckon they were 'racist'.....unlike our friends on the left.....
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    I would prefer it to be an on going arrangement rather than a one off payment.
    WRT Wind turbines, offer nearby residents free or extremely cheap power when drawing from it.
    AIUI Electricity is lost the further the distance it is transmitted, it should therefore be a more efficient use of what is generated.
    Nimbyism is encouraged when people can see the cost to them personally without getting any benefit.

    Incentivise them with say 25% of the revenue?

    Neil said:

    Plato said:


    I wish they'd bugger off and let the locals have their own say.

    82% expressed the view that the Parish Council should oppose fracking.

    http://balcombeparishcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/fracking-poll-results.pdf
    Yes, on a non-political note I wonder why this isn't done more. It's commonplace in Denmark with communal licences, and accounts for the facts that wind turbines are ubiquitous - nearly every community was keen to get a share. And it's reasonable, really, isn't it? If you want to build a fracking well outside my window, of course I'll object. If you offer me £1000 to agree, I might warm to the idea.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    @tim - if you think I can be bothered to trawl through over 7,000 posts you'll be disappointed - however, I'm delighted to learn you do not believe they were racist....
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Twitter
    Iain Martin ‏@iainmartin1 17m
    Late to this row, but word desolate gets a hard time. As a Scot, some of my favourite places are desolate. Much of Highlands + Glasgow.
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650
    Not sure about the North East,but a big metal structure would look completely out of place in the South-Downs...No wonder people in the area don`t want fracking nearby.Feel a bit sorry for Lord Howell who seemed to want to make a joke of it than anything else.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I see a young man from Northumberland has been arrested for rape threat tweets.

    Bet he's feeling desolate now.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    Those are not the full results as required under the British Polling Council code of conduct

    I can't understand why they haven't been published - I was promised them during the day.

    They have two working days following publication of the poll, which was last night, so I would expect to see it tomorrow.


    Thats not the detail, it's the party/regional/age breakdown which they haven't published.

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/vyqeedhshs/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-290713-immigration-van.pdf

    Here.
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Was there approval ratings as well as the best PM metric back then?

    Be interesting to see them if there was.

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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    When you say a big metal structure, do you mean something like a great big wind turbine or an oil rig because we have plenty of both up here in the real North.
    SMukesh said:

    Not sure about the North East,but a big metal structure would look completely out of place in the South-Downs...No wonder people in the area don`t want fracking nearby.Feel a bit sorry for Lord Howell who seemed to want to make a joke of it than anything else.

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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650
    I love wind turbines and think they add to the scenic value but something like an oil rig would look completely out of place in the South Downs.I confess I am not sure what a fracking field would look like but am assuming it will be similiar to an oil rig.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Twitter
    The New York Times ‏@nytimes 55m
    Breaking News: Manning Not Guilty of Aiding the Enemy but Convicted of Multiple Other Counts http://nyti.ms/Zf40cq
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    tim said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Was there approval ratings as well as the best PM metric back then?

    Be interesting to see them if there was.

    Thatcher led on approval ratings at the election
    I suspected as much. Best PM will never be a particularly good guide. To be fair there was also likely some pushback back then because Thatcher would be the first woman PM which would impact best PM harder than the more straightforward and accurate approval ratings.

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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    No political party thought it was racist, net. (Dangerously low LD sample, save only by the fact that it is a priori considered representative.)
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    This post is kinda what I was on about a week or two back when I suggested that GEs are usually won by whichever party, to a thoughtful person, most obviously has the best leader.

    Thatcher vs Callaghan
    Thatcher vs Foot
    Thatcher vs Kinnochio
    Major versus Kinnochio
    Blair versus Major
    Blair versus Hague
    Blair versus Howard
    Cameron versus Brown
    Cameron versus Miliband?

    I don't mean the winner is whoever's leader is more popular. The popularity rating includes the views of people who mostly aren't thoughtful. I mean the winner is whoever an honest and intelligent person would think the better leader.

    On that basis, it seems obvious that Miliband won't win in 2015, although as in 2010, this isn't to say that Cameron therefore will.

    It doesn't work well outside GEs. Every Scottish politician is necessarily a nonentity or a buffoon, for example, so choosing between Salmond and one of the others (I can't name any others) is a mug's game. It does work quite well for assessing Salmond's chances versus Westminster, though. Will Scotland get independence? Clearly not, if he has to get it past Cameron.
This discussion has been closed.