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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marco Rubio is getting very close to Jeb Bush in the Republ

SystemSystem Posts: 11,700
edited October 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marco Rubio is getting very close to Jeb Bush in the Republican nominee betting

While all the focus in the fight for the Republican nomination has been on the three non politician contenders – Trump, Fiorina and Carson – the big recent betting moves have been at the top of the card

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Curse of the new thread.

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    And in other news, looks like the Ruskies have been bombing the US-backed rebels rather than ISIS. "Urgent Talks" to happen between the two superpowers today.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11900853/Putin-request-for-use-of-Russian-troops-in-Syria-approved-live.html

    Two questions we need to ask:

    1) What do the Russians want out of this? What is their end game?
    2) What do we want out of this? What is our end game?

    Possible answers:
    1) The Russians want a secure warm-water port at Tartus, more influence in the region via a puppet regime, and the relaxation of sanctions.
    2) We want ... well, an end to IS, obviously. And for everyone to be jolly nice to one another.

    It seems to me that Russian aims are far more focussed and achievable than ours.

    Also: Russia will not want to inflame the situation with Islamic nutters too much. It has had massive problem in its mainly-Muslim regions (e.g. Chechnya), and even the US's failure in Afghanistan will not ease the Russian military's memory of their embarrassment in that same country twenty years earlier. Russia will be well aware - more than us - that the Muslim fighter is fanatical in the extreme, and all too willing to export that fanatacism to countries that attack it.

    Expect Russia to do the minimum possible to achieve their aims, whilst letting others do the hard and really risky graft against IS.
    I had a thought this morning about this. We all know that Putin is devious in the extreme and plays multi layered games. How about this bombing campaign has another function - to further destabilise the region and to stimulate even more people to leave Syria and look for refuge in the EU. This puts even more strain on the economic and political establishment in the EU, foments internal dispute, and diverts attention away from Ukraine.
  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Oh, and first
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    edited October 2015
    FPT
    felix said:
    There's so many sides to this one - residents, tourists, black cabbies, minicabs and the upstarts.

    As a resident I want a roadworthy car with a non-criminal driver and an approved meter.
    As a tourist I want the above plus a driver who knows where he's going and isn't going to spend hours stuck in traffic
    As a black cabbie who studied for 3 years and spent 30k on a car, I'd be pretty peeved if anyone with a smartphone can suddenly call themselves a cabbie.
    As an existing minicab I want my company to be better equipped to compete with the upstart.
    As the upstart I want to ignore all the rules, or pretend they don't apply to me. One upstart in particular is being particularly sh1tty about ignoring rules - in several cities and countries.

    The specific proposals mentioned seem designed to attack the upstart but in completely the wrong way - by attacking the things that the residents and tourists WANT from them.

    A better approach would be to require commercial licences for drivers, regular inspections of vehicles and public liability insurance from companies operating cars for hire, then let the market work things out.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    Rubio would probably be the most electable and charismatic candidate the Republicans could pick however he is pro immigration unlike, say, Trump and Cruz and that hurts him with the base who seem to be in populist mode. Rubio would need to beat Trump in Iowa or New Hampshire to have a shot
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    https://twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    edited October 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    Blue_rog said:

    Curse of the new thread.

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    And in other news, looks like the Ruskies have been bombing the US-backed rebels rather than ISIS. "Urgent Talks" to happen between the two superpowers today.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11900853/Putin-request-for-use-of-Russian-troops-in-Syria-approved-live.html

    Two questions we need to ask:

    1) What do the Russians want out of this? What is their end game?
    2) What do we want out of this? What is our end game?

    Possible answers:
    1) The Russians want a secure warm-water port at Tartus, more influence in the region via a puppet regime, and the relaxation of sanctions.
    2) We want ... well, an end to IS, obviously. And for everyone to be jolly nice to one another.

    It seems to me that Russian aims are far more focussed and achievable than ours.

    Also: Russia will not want to inflame the situation with Islamic nutters too much. It has had massive problem in its mainly-Muslim regions (e.g. Chechnya), and even the US's failure in Afghanistan will not ease the Russian military's memory of their embarrassment in that same country twenty years earlier. Russia will be well aware - more than us - that the Muslim fighter is fanatical in the extreme, and all too willing to export that fanatacism to countries that attack it.

    Expect Russia to do the minimum possible to achieve their aims, whilst letting others do the hard and really risky graft against IS.
    I had a thought this morning about this. We all know that Putin is devious in the extreme and plays multi layered games. How about this bombing campaign has another function - to further destabilise the region and to stimulate even more people to leave Syria and look for refuge in the EU. This puts even more strain on the economic and political establishment in the EU, foments internal dispute, and diverts attention away from Ukraine.
    He will ensure Assad remains in place and west will look like the useless dummies they are , once again. He is far too smart for the dullards we have in charge.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Good morning, comrades.

    A few elections ago I had Rubio at 50/1 (forget whether that was to win or just become the Republican candidate).
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    On topic, can we see some more money on Fiorina please. I want to lay her but no value at 14, was hoping she'd be into 7 or 8 by now.

    Nomination looking likely to be between Bush and Rubio now - unless somehow Trump can stay the distance, unlikely though that might seem from this side of the Pond.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    I'm afraid quasi-fascist scaremongering on 'security' won't be quite as effective when the British public's desire for war has been permanently dampened by one too many pointless foreign adventures. Especially as it will be made more and more clear to the public that Trident isn't really independent. Without an actual invasion of British territory it probably wouldn't have been been that effective then.

    I think the loony right are overestimating the British public's desire to be Airstrip One.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Wisemann, your definition of 'loony right' appears to include most of the Shadow Cabinet.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    Has there been any opinion polling on this?
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    You can’t un-see this picture of Donald Trump with a man bun http://t.co/1P3D6X57NZ http://t.co/u1kKJHzKw0
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @afneil: Downing Street sources tell Spectator Mr Cameron will step down Spring 2019. Leadership contest that summer. Window for Labour contest too?
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    FPT: There is a basic mistake in Mike's assumption re: registrations.

    It has nothing to do with turnout. They are not people who are registered but do not vote.

    It is more to do with people who do NOT register in the first place.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420
    JWisemann said:

    I'm afraid quasi-fascist scaremongering on 'security' won't be quite as effective when the British public's desire for war has been permanently dampened by one too many pointless foreign adventures. Especially as it will be made more and more clear to the public that Trident isn't really independent. Without an actual invasion of British territory it probably wouldn't have been been that effective then.

    I think the loony right are overestimating the British public's desire to be Airstrip One.

    False choice. Moving away from the US does not mean that Britain's defence policy has to mean hiding under a bush, or rolling out the red carpet to Hamas.

    Against an increasingly confident Russia, a rising China and various assorted nutcases across the world, Security is increasingly relevant.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420
    On topic, Rubio does look like a good shout and while his chance may have come early, that may not ultimately matter.

    Rather ironically, 2016 could be something of a mirror-image to 1992.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scott_P said:

    @afneil: Downing Street sources tell Spectator Mr Cameron will step down Spring 2019. Leadership contest that summer. Window for Labour contest too?

    There's only one* Downing Street source that is reliable on this subject and even he isn't in full control of events.


    *Though Samantha Cameron's take would also be worth hearing.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,894
    What a strange country we live in. A parent can beat their children for any reason whatsoever without the law's involvement but if they smoke in a car with someone under 18 they get fined.

    The leader of the labour Party is castigated for saying that he wouldn't press the button that would release Trident because it's an action that would guarantee the world's destruction. We should feel safer having a leader who would press that button.....

    ...The time is out of joint. O cursèd spite,. That ever I was born to set it right!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    edited October 2015
    Sandpit said:

    On topic, can we see some more money on Fiorina please. I want to lay her but no value at 14, was hoping she'd be into 7 or 8 by now.

    Nomination looking likely to be between Bush and Rubio now - unless somehow Trump can stay the distance, unlikely though that might seem from this side of the Pond.

    After picking two losing moderates the GOP base seem to be in populist mood and Bush and Rubio may be too pro immigration. At the moment Trump still leads followed by Carson and Fiorina then Rubio and Bush with Cruz also closing in behind them
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Hugely unscientific interpretations:

    Average Tory poll lead over Labour since GE2015

    GE - Farron election - 7 polls - 9%
    Farron election - Corbyn election - 7 polls - 9%
    Corbyn election - Now - 6 polls - 7.5%
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer. Donald Trump looks impossible but Jeb Bush risks being impossible in a different way: too boring, no inspiring message.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    antifrank said:

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    Has there been any opinion polling on this?
    Call it an educated guess, but I think if asked 'do you feel worried by the Russians bombing jihadis'
    I'd feel quite comfortable betting a few quid on 'no' coming up quite a lot.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    No surprises here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11903436/Lord-Lawson-to-lead-Conservative-campaign-to-leave-EU.html
    The Eurosceptic peer said he has taken the role as president of the Conservatives for Britain and will lead a cross-party exit movement ahead of the EU referendum, due to take place by the end of next year.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,904
    antifrank said:

    On topic, once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer. Donald Trump looks impossible but Jeb Bush risks being impossible in a different way: too boring, no inspiring message.

    Have you taken into account Jeb's lack of name recognition?
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420
    Blue_rog said:

    Curse of the new thread.

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    And in other news, looks like the Ruskies have been bombing the US-backed rebels rather than ISIS. "Urgent Talks" to happen between the two superpowers today.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11900853/Putin-request-for-use-of-Russian-troops-in-Syria-approved-live.html

    Two questions we need to ask:

    1) What do the Russians want out of this? What is their end game?
    2) What do we want out of this? What is our end game?

    Possible answers:
    1) The Russians want a secure warm-water port at Tartus, more influence in the region via a puppet regime, and the relaxation of sanctions.
    2) We want ... well, an end to IS, obviously. And for everyone to be jolly nice to one another.

    It seems to me that Russian aims are far more focussed and achievable than ours.

    Also: Russia will not want to inflame the situation with Islamic nutters too much. It has had massive problem in its mainly-Muslim regions (e.g. Chechnya), and even the US's failure in Afghanistan will not ease the Russian military's memory of their embarrassment in that same country twenty years earlier. Russia will be well aware - more than us - that the Muslim fighter is fanatical in the extreme, and all too willing to export that fanatacism to countries that attack it.

    Expect Russia to do the minimum possible to achieve their aims, whilst letting others do the hard and really risky graft against IS.
    I had a thought this morning about this. We all know that Putin is devious in the extreme and plays multi layered games. How about this bombing campaign has another function - to further destabilise the region and to stimulate even more people to leave Syria and look for refuge in the EU. This puts even more strain on the economic and political establishment in the EU, foments internal dispute, and diverts attention away from Ukraine.
    I think it's simpler than that. Thinking five or six moves ahead in international relations leaves too much to chance.

    Putin is looking to knock out the remaining moderates to force the rest of the world to keep Assad in place as the lesser of the two evils in Syria. Ultimately, that will mean taking on IS as well but with Assad's assets unfrozen and with financial and military aid, that's achievable.

    I'd regard any knock-on Islamic action in Russia as a feature rather than a bug. Putin has history in cracking down severely where necessary. An Islamic terrorist campaign would give him the pretext to do all he needs in that regard, including, perhaps, a state of emergency to remove (or suspend, for appearances' sake), remaining features of democracy in Russia.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082

    JWisemann said:

    I'm afraid quasi-fascist scaremongering on 'security' won't be quite as effective when the British public's desire for war has been permanently dampened by one too many pointless foreign adventures. Especially as it will be made more and more clear to the public that Trident isn't really independent. Without an actual invasion of British territory it probably wouldn't have been been that effective then.

    I think the loony right are overestimating the British public's desire to be Airstrip One.

    False choice. Moving away from the US does not mean that Britain's defence policy has to mean hiding under a bush, or rolling out the red carpet to Hamas.

    Against an increasingly confident Russia, a rising China and various assorted nutcases across the world, Security is increasingly relevant.
    Tory policy has been to make us less secure, not more so.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Nicky Morgan has become the first Cabinet minister to publicly state that she may enter the race to succeed David Cameron when he steps down. On the eve of the Conservative Party’s annual conference Mrs Morgan, the Education Secretary, said that she is contemplating standing as leader but that “a lot of it will depend on family”.

    It came as it was claimed that Mr Cameron has told allies that he will stand down in the spring of 2019.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11902998/Nicky-Morgan-becomes-first-Cabinet-minister-to-say-she-could-replace-David-Cameron.html
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,904

    Nicky Morgan has become the first Cabinet minister to publicly state that she may enter the race to succeed David Cameron when he steps down. On the eve of the Conservative Party’s annual conference Mrs Morgan, the Education Secretary, said that she is contemplating standing as leader but that “a lot of it will depend on family”.

    It came as it was claimed that Mr Cameron has told allies that he will stand down in the spring of 2019.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11902998/Nicky-Morgan-becomes-first-Cabinet-minister-to-say-she-could-replace-David-Cameron.html

    chortle
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,060
    Blue_rog said:

    Curse of the new thread.

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    And in other news, looks like the Ruskies have been bombing the US-backed rebels rather than ISIS. "Urgent Talks" to happen between the two superpowers today.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11900853/Putin-request-for-use-of-Russian-troops-in-Syria-approved-live.html

    Two questions we need to ask:

    1) What do the Russians want out of this? What is their end game?
    2) What do we want out of this? What is our end game?

    Possible answers:
    1) The Russians want a secure warm-water port at Tartus, more influence in the region via a puppet regime, and the relaxation of sanctions.
    2) We want ... well, an end to IS, obviously. And for everyone to be jolly nice to one another.

    It seems to me that Russian aims are far more focussed and achievable than ours.

    Also: Russia will not want to inflame the situation with Islamic nutters too much. It has had massive problem in its mainly-Muslim regions (e.g. Chechnya), and even the US's failure in Afghanistan will not ease the Russian military's memory of their embarrassment in that same country twenty years earlier. Russia will be well aware - more than us - that the Muslim fighter is fanatical in the extreme, and all too willing to export that fanatacism to countries that attack it.

    Expect Russia to do the minimum possible to achieve their aims, whilst letting others do the hard and really risky graft against IS.
    I had a thought this morning about this. We all know that Putin is devious in the extreme and plays multi layered games. How about this bombing campaign has another function - to further destabilise the region and to stimulate even more people to leave Syria and look for refuge in the EU. This puts even more strain on the economic and political establishment in the EU, foments internal dispute, and diverts attention away from Ukraine.
    That's probably true. Putin needs a divided Europe so Russia - with its oil and gas exports - has lots of client states, none of which have the power to be able to stand up to him.

    Migrants fleeing to Europe weakens Europe and the EU, and therefore strengthens Putin's hand.

    Destabilising the Middle East therefore produces multiple positives for Putin: it lowers oil supply from the region, increasing prices, and it destabilises Europe.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    edited October 2015
    Of course the neocon establishment is desperately trying to spin the distastrous state of affairs, where current enemy Eurasia, I mean Russia, are taking on the most hated bunch of fundamentalist terrorists active in the world today, with this 'moderates' nonsense, but if you are really swallowing the mental gymnastics involved you really are lost as critical thinkers, I afraid.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    JWisemann said:

    antifrank said:

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    Has there been any opinion polling on this?
    Call it an educated guess, but I think if asked 'do you feel worried by the Russians bombing jihadis'
    I'd feel quite comfortable betting a few quid on 'no' coming up quite a lot.
    Ah, I see. It was one of those "most people" that meant "I".
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    antifrank said:

    JWisemann said:

    antifrank said:

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    Has there been any opinion polling on this?
    Call it an educated guess, but I think if asked 'do you feel worried by the Russians bombing jihadis'
    I'd feel quite comfortable betting a few quid on 'no' coming up quite a lot.
    Ah, I see. It was one of those "most people" that meant "I".
    Fancy a bet if it does come up?
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Nicky Morgan has become the first Cabinet minister to publicly state that she may enter the race to succeed David Cameron when he steps down

    In politics today, it seems ambition and non-entity status increasingly go hand in hand
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420
    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    I'm afraid quasi-fascist scaremongering on 'security' won't be quite as effective when the British public's desire for war has been permanently dampened by one too many pointless foreign adventures. Especially as it will be made more and more clear to the public that Trident isn't really independent. Without an actual invasion of British territory it probably wouldn't have been been that effective then.

    I think the loony right are overestimating the British public's desire to be Airstrip One.

    False choice. Moving away from the US does not mean that Britain's defence policy has to mean hiding under a bush, or rolling out the red carpet to Hamas.

    Against an increasingly confident Russia, a rising China and various assorted nutcases across the world, Security is increasingly relevant.
    Tory policy has been to make us less secure, not more so.
    To an extent I would agree. Big changes need to be made to Britain's defence and foreign policies.

    However, Labour's policies - to the extent that they can be determined - would be far, far worse.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Christ, Nicky Morgan. Really?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    surbiton said:

    Hugely unscientific interpretations:

    Average Tory poll lead over Labour since GE2015

    GE - Farron election - 7 polls - 9%
    Farron election - Corbyn election - 7 polls - 9%
    Corbyn election - Now - 6 polls - 7.5%

    Tory lead at general election 7% so little change but tiny swing to Tories
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    JWisemann said:

    antifrank said:

    JWisemann said:

    antifrank said:

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    Has there been any opinion polling on this?
    Call it an educated guess, but I think if asked 'do you feel worried by the Russians bombing jihadis'
    I'd feel quite comfortable betting a few quid on 'no' coming up quite a lot.
    Ah, I see. It was one of those "most people" that meant "I".
    Fancy a bet if it does come up?
    I have no idea on this one. Russia is strongly disliked by most British people (except by Kippers who admire Putin's militarist authoritarianism and by Corbynistas who still mourn the fall of the Berlin Wall). ISIS are loathed still more. Will the public on balance prefer to see ISIS attacked or will it distrust Vladimir Putin's motives? Probably both - I'd expect a high "Don't know" result.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061

    Blue_rog said:

    Curse of the new thread.

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    And in other news, looks like the Ruskies have been bombing the US-backed rebels rather than ISIS. "Urgent Talks" to happen between the two superpowers today.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11900853/Putin-request-for-use-of-Russian-troops-in-Syria-approved-live.html

    Two questions we need to ask:

    1) What do the Russians want out of this? What is their end game?
    2) What do we want out of this? What is our end game?

    Possible answers:
    1) The Russians want a secure warm-water port at Tartus, more influence in the region via a puppet regime, and the relaxation of sanctions.
    2) We want ... well, an end to IS, obviously. And for everyone to be jolly nice to one another.

    It seems to me that Russian aims are far more focussed and achievable than ours.

    Also: Russia will not want to inflame the situation with Islamic nutters too much. It has had massive problem in its mainly-Muslim regions (e.g. Chechnya), and even the US's failure in Afghanistan will not ease the Russian military's memory of their embarrassment in that same country twenty years earlier. Russia will be well aware - more than us - that the Muslim fighter is fanatical in the extreme, and all too willing to export that fanatacism to countries that attack it.

    Expect Russia to do the minimum possible to achieve their aims, whilst letting others do the hard and really risky graft against IS.
    I had a thought this morning about this. We all know that Putin is devious in the extreme and plays multi layered games. How about this bombing campaign has another function - to further destabilise the region and to stimulate even more people to leave Syria and look for refuge in the EU. This puts even more strain on the economic and political establishment in the EU, foments internal dispute, and diverts attention away from Ukraine.
    I think it's simpler than that. Thinking five or six moves ahead in international relations leaves too much to chance.

    Putin is looking to knock out the remaining moderates to force the rest of the world to keep Assad in place as the lesser of the two evils in Syria. Ultimately, that will mean taking on IS as well but with Assad's assets unfrozen and with financial and military aid, that's achievable.

    I'd regard any knock-on Islamic action in Russia as a feature rather than a bug. Putin has history in cracking down severely where necessary. An Islamic terrorist campaign would give him the pretext to do all he needs in that regard, including, perhaps, a state of emergency to remove (or suspend, for appearances' sake), remaining features of democracy in Russia.
    I don't think we can underestimate Putin's desire to get sanctions against Russia lifted.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082

    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    I'm afraid quasi-fascist scaremongering on 'security' won't be quite as effective when the British public's desire for war has been permanently dampened by one too many pointless foreign adventures. Especially as it will be made more and more clear to the public that Trident isn't really independent. Without an actual invasion of British territory it probably wouldn't have been been that effective then.

    I think the loony right are overestimating the British public's desire to be Airstrip One.

    False choice. Moving away from the US does not mean that Britain's defence policy has to mean hiding under a bush, or rolling out the red carpet to Hamas.

    Against an increasingly confident Russia, a rising China and various assorted nutcases across the world, Security is increasingly relevant.
    Tory policy has been to make us less secure, not more so.
    To an extent I would agree. Big changes need to be made to Britain's defence and foreign policies.

    However, Labour's policies - to the extent that they can be determined - would be far, far worse.
    I'm glad we can find some common ground ;) I'm trying to be constructive these days, life's too short.
    However my argument would be that Trident does nothing for our security at all. (Of course it is still labour policy to keep this ridiculous white elephant). And a policy where we don't follow the U.S. into every one of their ill-fated geopolitical games would make us infinitely more secure.
    labour policy will be very pro-armed forces - give them the right tools to face the genuine threats we do face and don't get involved in any more unnecessary wars where our soldiers get killed for spurious purposes.
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,016
    edited October 2015
    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    I would guess that "most people" would say that there isn't a right side in the Syrian civil war.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @JohnRentoul: Live update: Stop the War demo outside Russian embassy #syria http://t.co/MuZSoBBWmV
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    I'm afraid quasi-fascist scaremongering on 'security' won't be quite as effective when the British public's desire for war has been permanently dampened by one too many pointless foreign adventures. Especially as it will be made more and more clear to the public that Trident isn't really independent. Without an actual invasion of British territory it probably wouldn't have been been that effective then.

    I think the loony right are overestimating the British public's desire to be Airstrip One.

    False choice. Moving away from the US does not mean that Britain's defence policy has to mean hiding under a bush, or rolling out the red carpet to Hamas.

    Against an increasingly confident Russia, a rising China and various assorted nutcases across the world, Security is increasingly relevant.
    Tory policy has been to make us less secure, not more so.
    To an extent I would agree. Big changes need to be made to Britain's defence and foreign policies.

    However, Labour's policies - to the extent that they can be determined - would be far, far worse.
    I'm glad we can find some common ground ;) I'm trying to be constructive these days, life's too short.
    However my argument would be that Trident does nothing for our security at all. (Of course it is still labour policy to keep this ridiculous white elephant). And a policy where we don't follow the U.S. into every one of their ill-fated geopolitical games would make us infinitely more secure.
    labour policy will be very pro-armed forces - give them the right tools to face the genuine threats we do face and don't get involved in any more unnecessary wars where our soldiers get killed for spurious purposes.
    "I'm trying to be constructive these days"

    Then try posting constructively. Going around calling everyone you disagree with neocons isn't exactly constructive.

    As for: "labour policy will be very pro-armed forces": Yes, I agree. If Corbyn's past words are anything to go by, he will be very pro- other countries' armed forces. ;)

    I ask you the question I asked you at the end of the last thread: what so you see as the UK's desired end-game in Syria, and how do you propose we get there?
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited October 2015
    JWisemann said:

    Christ, Nicky Morgan. Really?

    Almost as laughable as people who use phrases such as neo-con, neo-liberal, quasi-fascist.
    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Hugely unscientific interpretations:

    Average Tory poll lead over Labour since GE2015

    GE - Farron election - 7 polls - 9%
    Farron election - Corbyn election - 7 polls - 9%
    Corbyn election - Now - 6 polls - 7.5%

    Tory lead at general election 7% so little change but tiny swing to Tories
    All points to the Tories being 10-12% clear at a real poll.

    The 'popular' left are always overstated.
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    edited October 2015

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    I would guess that "most people" would say that there isn't a right side in the Syrian civil war.
    Yes there is. It's a binary choice between the authoritarian but secular, pluralistic Assad government and genocidal, fascist, fundamentalist jihadis. If you look at it without 'grand game' neocon goggles it's a no-brainer.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    Yet another 'leave' group.

    Splitters!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34409264
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @camusson: (2/2) Excl revelations in Michelle Thomson saga: "Lawyers for Indy" solicitor on Law Soc committee dealing with case http://t.co/cAs346swMn
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420
    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    I would guess that "most people" would say that there isn't a right side in the Syrian civil war.
    Yes there is. It's a binary choice between the authoritarian but secular, pluralistic Assad government and genocidal, fascist, fundamentalist jihadis. If you look at it without 'grand game' neocon goggles it's a no-brainer.
    So who are Putin's forces currently bombing?

    Ironically, it's neoCons who are most prone to looking at the world through binary goggles.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Jessop, you mean the Leave group has been left by the Exit group?!

    On Nicky Morgan: the Conservative Andy Burnham?
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    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    I would guess that "most people" would say that there isn't a right side in the Syrian civil war.
    Yes there is. It's a binary choice between the authoritarian but secular, pluralistic Assad government and genocidal, fascist, fundamentalist jihadis. If you look at it without 'grand game' neocon goggles it's a no-brainer.

    I doubt "most people" even know what those goggles are, let alone wear them.

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    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Mr. Wisemann, your definition of 'loony right' appears to include most of the Shadow Cabinet.

    Forget right or left.

    Only a complete loony could possibly believe that Trident is a necessary weapon system.
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    chestnut said:

    JWisemann said:

    Christ, Nicky Morgan. Really?

    Almost as laughable as people who use phrases such as neo-con, neo-liberal, quasi-fascist.
    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Hugely unscientific interpretations:

    Average Tory poll lead over Labour since GE2015

    GE - Farron election - 7 polls - 9%
    Farron election - Corbyn election - 7 polls - 9%
    Corbyn election - Now - 6 polls - 7.5%

    Tory lead at general election 7% so little change but tiny swing to Tories
    All points to the Tories being 10-12% clear at a real poll.

    The 'popular' left are always overstated.
    What like in the last mayoral election?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,420

    Blue_rog said:

    Curse of the new thread.

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    And in other news, looks like the Ruskies have been bombing the US-backed rebels rather than ISIS. "Urgent Talks" to happen between the two superpowers today.

    Two questions we need to ask:

    1) What do the Russians want out of this? What is their end game?
    2) What do we want out of this? What is our end game?

    It seems to me that Russian aims are far more focussed and achievable than ours.

    Also: Russia will not want to inflame the situation with Islamic nutters too much. It has had massive problem in its mainly-Muslim regions (e.g. Chechnya), and even the US's failure in Afghanistan will not ease the Russian military's memory of their embarrassment in that same country twenty years earlier. Russia will be well aware - more than us - that the Muslim fighter is fanatical in the extreme, and all too willing to export that fanatacism to countries that attack it.

    Expect Russia to do the minimum possible to achieve their aims, whilst letting others do the hard and really risky graft against IS.

    I had a thought this morning about this. We all know that Putin is devious in the extreme and plays multi layered games. How about this bombing campaign has another function - to further destabilise the region and to stimulate even more people to leave Syria and look for refuge in the EU. This puts even more strain on the economic and political establishment in the EU, foments internal dispute, and diverts attention away from Ukraine.
    I think it's simpler than that. Thinking five or six moves ahead in international relations leaves too much to chance.

    Putin is looking to knock out the remaining moderates to force the rest of the world to keep Assad in place as the lesser of the two evils in Syria. Ultimately, that will mean taking on IS as well but with Assad's assets unfrozen and with financial and military aid, that's achievable.

    I'd regard any knock-on Islamic action in Russia as a feature rather than a bug. Putin has history in cracking down severely where necessary. An Islamic terrorist campaign would give him the pretext to do all he needs in that regard, including, perhaps, a state of emergency to remove (or suspend, for appearances' sake), remaining features of democracy in Russia.
    I don't think we can underestimate Putin's desire to get sanctions against Russia lifted.
    Fair point but a different one. While it's engaged on an expansionist drive on cultural / historic reasoning, they have to stay.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,360

    No surprises here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11903436/Lord-Lawson-to-lead-Conservative-campaign-to-leave-EU.html

    The Eurosceptic peer said he has taken the role as president of the Conservatives for Britain and will lead a cross-party exit movement ahead of the EU referendum, due to take place by the end of next year.
    He's fine to give intellectual credibility but too old to front a campaign - I had to think for a moment to remember who he was, and I shouldn't think most people under 40 will have a clue. Outers desperately need a well-known current politician to lead them who isn't Farage (who is effective but defines Out too narrowly as =UKIP). Boris seems the only plausible possibility that might give them a shot.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    edited October 2015
    Trump has now said Assad may be better than some of the rebels and he is nicer than Putin, a contrast from others in the GOP
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    A senior SNP MSP said yesterday that “there will be more Michelle Thomsons”, claiming that checks on general election candidates had been “hurried, shambolic and perfunctory”.

    An SNP MSP warned: “There are going to be more of these because the vetting process was so poor. I’m not surprised the leadership had no idea.”

    Potential candidates were asked to detail anything in their lives that might cause a problem. But, according to the MSP: “Candidates could put down what they liked, no one seemed to have the time to check them all. Things were missed.”
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4572958.ece
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    I had to think for a moment to remember who he was

    oh pull the other one
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061



    I don't think we can underestimate Putin's desire to get sanctions against Russia lifted.

    Fair point but a different one. While it's engaged on an expansionist drive on cultural / historic reasoning, they have to stay.
    Russia will be trying to pretend that they are fighting against ISIS, rather than for Assad. They will then say that in order to do this effectively, they will need sanctions lifting.

    For many in the west that will be a persuasive argument even if it is utterly bogus.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    chestnut said:

    JWisemann said:

    Christ, Nicky Morgan. Really?

    Almost as laughable as people who use phrases such as neo-con, neo-liberal, quasi-fascist.
    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    Hugely unscientific interpretations:

    Average Tory poll lead over Labour since GE2015

    GE - Farron election - 7 polls - 9%
    Farron election - Corbyn election - 7 polls - 9%
    Corbyn election - Now - 6 polls - 7.5%

    Tory lead at general election 7% so little change but tiny swing to Tories
    All points to the Tories being 10-12% clear at a real poll.

    The 'popular' left are always overstated.
    Comres has reweighted though and has Tory lead at 9 to 12%yes
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Probably for the first time ever, I slightly agree with Mr Wisemann. When Al Queda and its affiliates are regarded as 'moderates' something is very peculiar.

    If Putin wants to bomb them, why should the West complain?

    Alawites may be a type of Shia but they're definitely not IS. Or am I being too simplistic? Very likely if Mr Wisemann is on the same side.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,047
    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    I would guess that "most people" would say that there isn't a right side in the Syrian civil war.
    Yes there is. It's a binary choice between the authoritarian but secular, pluralistic Assad government and genocidal, fascist, fundamentalist jihadis. If you look at it without 'grand game' neocon goggles it's a no-brainer.
    IIRC the original anti-Assad forces were also secular. It was only later, although not, in some cases a lot later, that “jihadis’ joined the fray. And if I’m not mistaken some of them are more intersted in fighting each other than fighting Assad.
    So to say there isn’t a right side depends on how you feel about things.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Palmer, Boris has zero credibility on this, due to his demented position, stated earlier this year (or late 2014) that we should vote No, and then use that as leverage to get a better deal instead of respecting the democratic will of the people.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082

    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    I would guess that "most people" would say that there isn't a right side in the Syrian civil war.
    Yes there is. It's a binary choice between the authoritarian but secular, pluralistic Assad government and genocidal, fascist, fundamentalist jihadis. If you look at it without 'grand game' neocon goggles it's a no-brainer.
    So who are Putin's forces currently bombing?

    Ironically, it's neoCons who are most prone to looking at the world through binary goggles.
    They are bombing jihadis. The 'moderates' are a convenient fiction to allow the neocons to argue that black is white and our enemy is still Eurasia.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,988
    runnymede said:

    I had to think for a moment to remember who he was

    oh pull the other one

    That really is straining our credulity
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,360
    On Syria, I think Bluerog's analysis is too complicated. Putin simply wants to prove he's a good ally. Ally with him and he sticks to you through thick and thin, regardless of your revolting atrocities, and if necessary intervenes to bomb your opponents. Ally with the West and who knows what they'll do, if anything? Perhaps they'll even conspire to bring you down when they find a better option (cf. Gaddafi, who we were intermittently friendly with when he agreed to give up WMD).

    I'm not recommending that we adopt Putin's policy - a policy that we will be supportive without direct intervention and conditional on human rights is consistent and quite possibly a better one. But for embattled dictators, Putin's simple approach has obvious appeal.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Scott_P said:

    @camusson: (2/2) Excl revelations in Michelle Thomson saga: "Lawyers for Indy" solicitor on Law Soc committee dealing with case http://t.co/cAs346swMn

    So what your saying is that all the other solicitors on the panel were Unionists and they came up with a decision which was detrimental to someone who was later a declared independence supporter.

    Sounds like a Unionist plot to me.
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    Roger is having another "Where's Wally" moment. [#nostalgia]
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    As for rentoul's glib comment about protests, the Russians have been called in for assistance by the sovereign government of the country, a very different activity to unilateral military adventurism of the sort that has been so reckless and commonplace by the transatlantic neocon establishment.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    edited October 2015

    No surprises here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11903436/Lord-Lawson-to-lead-Conservative-campaign-to-leave-EU.html

    The Eurosceptic peer said he has taken the role as president of the Conservatives for Britain and will lead a cross-party exit movement ahead of the EU referendum, due to take place by the end of next year.
    I had to think for a moment to remember who he was


    Really Nick?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,894
    edited October 2015
    Dair

    "Only a complete loony could possibly believe that Trident is a necessary weapon system."

    I agree which is why the election of Corbyn was so important. For the first time the question of Trident is going to become a national debate. That several shadow cabinet ministers are in favour doesn't matter a jot. This goes to the heart of progressive politics. Anyone watching the rather pathetic figure of Lord Falconer on Newsnight will know the writing's on the wall.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061

    On Syria, I think Bluerog's analysis is too complicated. Putin simply wants to prove he's a good ally. Ally with him and he sticks to you through thick and thin, regardless of your revolting atrocities, and if necessary intervenes to bomb your opponents. Ally with the West and who knows what they'll do, if anything? Perhaps they'll even conspire to bring you down when they find a better option (cf. Gaddafi, who we were intermittently friendly with when he agreed to give up WMD).

    I'm not recommending that we adopt Putin's policy - a policy that we will be supportive without direct intervention and conditional on human rights is consistent and quite possibly a better one. But for embattled dictators, Putin's simple approach has obvious appeal.

    And your analysis is far too simple and one-dimensional. Why would Putin ally himself with Assad in the first place? What does he want out of this? What is his end-game?
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,016
    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    I would guess that "most people" would say that there isn't a right side in the Syrian civil war.
    Yes there is. It's a binary choice between the authoritarian but secular, pluralistic Assad government and genocidal, fascist, fundamentalist jihadis. If you look at it without 'grand game' neocon goggles it's a no-brainer.
    Well quite, if you think Assad is "right" and no more than "authoritarian" you are wearing some goggles yourself. He may well be the least worst option at the moment, but of course we should reserve the right to stab him in tha back later. At least the Russians might go after IS properly rather than ponce about with both hands tied behind their back.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Putin could easily end up being bogged down in an asymmetric conflict. Shrugs...
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Loving seeing the Saudis squeal whilst their evil proxies in Syria and Yemen face a battering, their own forces get bogged down against the brave Houthis, and disquiet at home is on the rise. Sooner we can see that vile country fall, the better.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @Jake_Wilde: OK this @JournoStephen 's fault but I'm going to tweet out some old Tory election posters and someone better tell me they wouldn't work now.

    twitter.com/jake_wilde/status/649359215446900736

    And right on cue Russia gets involved in the Syrian conflict!

    I imagine the Tories will push a Trident vote at the earliest opportunity. Mr Woodcock from Barrow will no doubt be interested in the official Labour view on the subject.
    The thing is most people think Russia are on the right side in Syria. Doesn't really work, does it.
    I would guess that "most people" would say that there isn't a right side in the Syrian civil war.
    Yes there is. It's a binary choice between the authoritarian but secular, pluralistic Assad government and genocidal, fascist, fundamentalist jihadis. If you look at it without 'grand game' neocon goggles it's a no-brainer.
    So who are Putin's forces currently bombing?

    Ironically, it's neoCons who are most prone to looking at the world through binary goggles.
    They are bombing jihadis. The 'moderates' are a convenient fiction to allow the neocons to argue that black is white and our enemy is still Eurasia.
    Ah, your 'constructive' approach once again. Not all the fighters are Jihadis, and not by a long shot. Although the number of non-Jihadi fighters has decreased massively since Miliband's treachery allowed ISIS to grow and gain territory in both Syria and Iraq.
  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    edited October 2015
    They jihadis were the key from the beginning. The 'moderates' have been a marginal joke from the start, a convenient fiction. Miliband saved us from the ignominy of supporting Isis and al-Nusra more than we already have.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    edited October 2015
    I took 6/1 on Rubio not long ago... though doubtless some PBers got 3,700/1 or somesuch.

    I'm holding fire on my (slight) negative position to Bush. He's got staying power but not the polling at the moment.

    Other than that it's a case of identifying no hopers.

    Pataki, Graham, Gilmore, Jindal, Paul, Santorum, Huckabee.

    Christie and Cruz probably but still got one eye. Kasich similarly (a downgrade on my previous position).
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dair said:

    Mr. Wisemann, your definition of 'loony right' appears to include most of the Shadow Cabinet.

    Forget right or left.

    Only a complete loony could possibly believe that Trident is a necessary weapon system.
    It's not a necessary weapon system.

    It's a necessary strategic defence initative

    Trident will probably never be used. But our opponents don't definitely know that we probably won't use it.

    Hence the danger of Corbyn's statement: in removing uncertainty the only think he achieves is to make the world a more dangerous place
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    JWisemann said:

    Sooner we can see that vile country fall, the better.

    No doubt the resultant chaos would give you the horn.

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    JWisemann said:

    Loving seeing the Saudis squeal whilst their evil proxies in Syria and Yemen face a battering, their own forces get bogged down against the brave Houthis, and disquiet at home is on the rise. Sooner we can see that vile country fall, the better.

    Given that the local religion is strongly against any infidel, what kind of regime is likely to replace the House of Saud if it fell?

    I suspect the answer is the kind of regime which would make you long for teh return of teh House of Saud..



  • Options
    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    edited October 2015
    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    Mr. Wisemann, your definition of 'loony right' appears to include most of the Shadow Cabinet.

    Forget right or left.

    Only a complete loony could possibly believe that Trident is a necessary weapon system.
    It's not a necessary weapon system.

    It's a necessary strategic defence initative

    Trident will probably never be used. But our opponents don't definitely know that we probably won't use it.

    Hence the danger of Corbyn's statement: in removing uncertainty the only think he achieves is to make the world a more dangerous place
    As a mere adjunct of the U.S. deterrent it does no such thing. There is no conceivable scenario where the U.S. would allow us to use it if they weren't going to use theirs.
    It's another emperor-with-no-clothes fiction that achieves nothing except boost the transatlantic neocon establishment and the coffers of Lockheed Martin.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Madasafish, quite.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Presumably anyone calling for the removal of Trident, is also expecting us to leave NATO, since we would remain a likely nuclear target for any 'enemy' whilst still hosting joint US/NATO facilities.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,894
    NP

    " - I had to think for a moment to remember who he was,"

    Ex father-in-law of a once innovative ad man. Can't think of any other claim to fame
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    JWisemann said:

    Loving seeing the Saudis squeal whilst their evil proxies in Syria and Yemen face a battering, their own forces get bogged down against the brave Houthis, and disquiet at home is on the rise. Sooner we can see that vile country fall, the better.

    .
    Again - shrugs.

    I guess one thing off the menu is a commons vote on air strikes. We can wash or hands.

    No whining when pictures of dead kids turn up on the news though - which they will. Then just wait for the backlash when Assad is back in full control - ouch - the prisons will be fuller than a soup kitchen at the Hungarian border. Enjoy the ride everyone..
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    TOPPING said:

    No surprises here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11903436/Lord-Lawson-to-lead-Conservative-campaign-to-leave-EU.html

    The Eurosceptic peer said he has taken the role as president of the Conservatives for Britain and will lead a cross-party exit movement ahead of the EU referendum, due to take place by the end of next year.
    I had to think for a moment to remember who he was
    Really Nick?


    Nick who?
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    edited October 2015

    JWisemann said:

    Loving seeing the Saudis squeal whilst their evil proxies in Syria and Yemen face a battering, their own forces get bogged down against the brave Houthis, and disquiet at home is on the rise. Sooner we can see that vile country fall, the better.

    Given that the local religion is strongly against any infidel, what kind of regime is likely to replace the House of Saud if it fell?

    I suspect the answer is the kind of regime which would make you long for teh return of teh House of Saud..



    the oppressed Shia minority are much more moderate and their area contains most of the oilfields. Let them have their own state there, deal with them, and let the Wahhabi nutters run their own horrible state without the power to spread their poison to the rest of the eastern hemisphere.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    On Syria, I think Bluerog's analysis is too complicated. Putin simply wants to prove he's a good ally. Ally with him and he sticks to you through thick and thin, regardless of your revolting atrocities, and if necessary intervenes to bomb your opponents. Ally with the West and who knows what they'll do, if anything? Perhaps they'll even conspire to bring you down when they find a better option (cf. Gaddafi, who we were intermittently friendly with when he agreed to give up WMD).

    I'm not recommending that we adopt Putin's policy - a policy that we will be supportive without direct intervention and conditional on human rights is consistent and quite possibly a better one. But for embattled dictators, Putin's simple approach has obvious appeal.

    And your analysis is far too simple and one-dimensional. Why would Putin ally himself with Assad in the first place? What does he want out of this? What is his end-game?
    Russian strategy doesn't change.

    She wants a buffer of compliant and/or destabilised countries around her borders. Syria fits reasonably well there with the added bonus of military bases.

    It might also send a signal to Turkey that the Turks best defence is served by Russia and not NATO - especially as Turkish Accession to the EU now seems less likely than ever.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    On Syria, I think Bluerog's analysis is too complicated. Putin simply wants to prove he's a good ally. Ally with him and he sticks to you through thick and thin, regardless of your revolting atrocities, and if necessary intervenes to bomb your opponents. Ally with the West and who knows what they'll do, if anything? Perhaps they'll even conspire to bring you down when they find a better option (cf. Gaddafi, who we were intermittently friendly with when he agreed to give up WMD).

    I'm not recommending that we adopt Putin's policy - a policy that we will be supportive without direct intervention and conditional on human rights is consistent and quite possibly a better one. But for embattled dictators, Putin's simple approach has obvious appeal.

    Lots of Lefties out today, with the taste of Putin in their mouths. It's like the Eighties all over again.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314
    I think Rubio is worth a punt - I put down a few quid last week in order to help me move a bit further to all green on GOP. I'm discounting Trump or Carson.
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    JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    watford30 said:

    Presumably anyone calling for the removal of Trident, is also expecting us to leave NATO, since we would remain a likely nuclear target for any 'enemy' whilst still hosting joint US/NATO facilities.

    There are plenty of nato members with no nuclear weapons.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dair said:

    On Syria, I think Bluerog's analysis is too complicated. Putin simply wants to prove he's a good ally. Ally with him and he sticks to you through thick and thin, regardless of your revolting atrocities, and if necessary intervenes to bomb your opponents. Ally with the West and who knows what they'll do, if anything? Perhaps they'll even conspire to bring you down when they find a better option (cf. Gaddafi, who we were intermittently friendly with when he agreed to give up WMD).

    I'm not recommending that we adopt Putin's policy - a policy that we will be supportive without direct intervention and conditional on human rights is consistent and quite possibly a better one. But for embattled dictators, Putin's simple approach has obvious appeal.

    And your analysis is far too simple and one-dimensional. Why would Putin ally himself with Assad in the first place? What does he want out of this? What is his end-game?
    Russian strategy doesn't change.

    She wants a buffer of compliant and/or destabilised countries around her borders. Syria fits reasonably well there with the added bonus of military bases.

    It might also send a signal to Turkey that the Turks best defence is served by Russia and not NATO - especially as Turkish Accession to the EU now seems less likely than ever.
    Is it not as simple as the port access Syria has ?

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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @surbiton

    'Hugely unscientific interpretations:'

    So why bother posting it or is it your comfort blanket ?
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited October 2015
    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    Mr. Wisemann, your definition of 'loony right' appears to include most of the Shadow Cabinet.

    Forget right or left.

    Only a complete loony could possibly believe that Trident is a necessary weapon system.
    It's not a necessary weapon system.

    It's a necessary strategic defence initative

    Trident will probably never be used. But our opponents don't definitely know that we probably won't use it.

    Hence the danger of Corbyn's statement: in removing uncertainty the only think he achieves is to make the world a more dangerous place
    It's not about "being used". That's for naive nutters (on both sides).

    Trident fails because it is : -

    1. Redundant. The American nuclear programme provides the UK with MAD and a deterrent.

    2. Not Fit For Purpose. The Trident system (where we can't even fill a single boat with missiles and have quite limited Warheads deployed at any time) does not prrovide MAD, it would barely be a bloody nose for the Great Bear. It does not qualify as a deterrent.

    So it isn't needed and doesn't work. £100bn for something that isn't needed and doesn't work is absolutely ridiculous.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314
    JWisemann said:

    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    Mr. Wisemann, your definition of 'loony right' appears to include most of the Shadow Cabinet.

    Forget right or left.

    Only a complete loony could possibly believe that Trident is a necessary weapon system.
    It's not a necessary weapon system.

    It's a necessary strategic defence initative

    Trident will probably never be used. But our opponents don't definitely know that we probably won't use it.

    Hence the danger of Corbyn's statement: in removing uncertainty the only think he achieves is to make the world a more dangerous place
    As a mere adjunct of the U.S. deterrent it does no such thing. There is no conceivable scenario where the U.S. would allow us to use it if they weren't going to use theirs.
    It's another emperor-with-no-clothes fiction that achieves nothing except boost the transatlantic neocon establishment and the coffers of Lockheed Martin.
    Evidence?
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2015
    JWisemann said:

    watford30 said:

    Presumably anyone calling for the removal of Trident, is also expecting us to leave NATO, since we would remain a likely nuclear target for any 'enemy' whilst still hosting joint US/NATO facilities.

    There are plenty of nato members with no nuclear weapons.
    Who all operate under the umbrella of US weapons, allow their storage within their territory, and in many cases have trained to use them. They're all targets.

    Whilst the UK hosts the BMEWS system, and joint US/NATO communications and air force facilities, we most definitely remain on the receiving end of megatons of canned sunshine.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Delighted that Nigel Lawson has become a prominent figure in the OUT campaign, definitely gaining momentum now
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    "Mike Smithson
    @MSmithsonPB

    Nicky Morgan says it's time for another woman CON leader & tells Speccie that she'll stand pic.twitter.com/0OfU4TxV0E"

    Surely a bonus to actualyl standing...
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