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Looks like it's Corbyn doesn't it.0
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It was probably too late. Hell, cooper didn't take him in until a day or before ballots went out even, that allows for lots of people to make up their minds.0
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How can Kendall have a negative percentage chance of winning?
LOL!0 -
Betting on the Stupid Party being stupid is like being given free money. Put a terrorist hugging, anti-American class warrior with illiterate economic policies, a track record of disloyalty, no discernible affection for the UK and, therefore, zero chance of ever winning an election, in front of Labour members and £3 part-timers, and of course they'll vote for him in large numbers having convinced themselves his a breath of fresh air and a misunderstood champion of peace. It's hard for most people to comprehend this, but the Useful Idiots really are a demographic apart.0
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It's had an impact on me - I've covered myself across all. I may review that later.0
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The excuse that governments have to speak to the political representatives of terrorists and other bigots really doesn't wash for an obscure back bencher. When he shares a platform with these people he cannot really believe he is a part of a peace process (unless he is totally delusional), he is supporting their cause as a player in the game (which Corbyn was not).
When he did that he chose to associate with some very unpleasant people with morally contemptible views. When doing so he did not think it necessary to challenge those views but instead he called these players "friends". The "governments do this" line is frankly ridiculous and he should be called on it.
But I don't think this is going to make any difference to the result. He has campaigned for this and the others haven't. He has generated enthusiasm. He has brought new blood into the party. I think he just might destroy the Labour party as a party of government but he deserves to win. And the others don't.0 -
The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.0 -
FPT
The Chilcott report was successfully held up so that it was not published before the 2015GE, and now looks as if the same is happening for the Labour leadership elections. What is the next impediment for the interested parties involved?0 -
There was a great post by someone (apols can't remember) saying how PB did Cons' thinking well but were less sure of Lab thinking.
Lab have now joined UKIP & the LDs in needing to work out what they are for. And they must then communicate this clearly to the electorate.
Centrist-ish but nice doesn't seem to have worked.
I'm not saying that we are at the end of (political) history. Yet. But I can understand the rationale of trying out further left as a uniquely Labour position. The slight shame, as @alex. pointed out, is that Jezza is not the left wing candidate to succeed at anything. They needed a grown-up left winger and sadly haven't got one.
If different from Jezza's, I would be interested to hear @JWisemann's view of what Lab should think or look like.0 -
The troubled Co-operative Bank has reported bigger losses, in part due to higher legal costs.
Pre-tax losses for the first six months of the year were £204.2m, compared with losses of £77m a year earlier. The figure was slightly better than expected.
It included losses of £38.2m on sales of assets needed to reduce the bank's overall levels of debt.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33999141
So probably little extra money for Labour there.0 -
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
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A lot is about the perception of competence. Neither Burnham nor Cooper appear remotely competent for anything. Kendall looks too competent for the current tastes of Labour. Whilst Corbyn (rather like EdM) looks competent regarding problem identification but also like EdM totally incompetent on providing viable and economic solutions.TOPPING said:There was a great post by someone (apols can't remember) saying how PB did Cons' thinking well but were less sure of Lab thinking.
Lab have now joined UKIP & the LDs in needing to work out what they are for. And they must then communicate this clearly to the electorate.
Centrist-ish but nice doesn't seem to have worked.
I'm not saying that we are at the end of (political) history. Yet. But I can understand the rationale of trying out further left as a uniquely Labour position. The slight shame, as @alex. pointed out, is that Jezza is not the left wing candidate to succeed at anything. They needed a grown-up left winger and sadly haven't got one.
If different from Jezza's, I would be interested to hear @JWisemann's view of what Lab should think or look like.0 -
If Jez wins, we could have an interesting position of the current leader of a political party wanting a prior leader to be arrested for war crimes.Financier said:FPT
The Chilcott report was successfully held up so that it was not published before the 2015GE, and now looks as if the same is happening for the Labour leadership elections. What is the next impediment for the interested parties involved?
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BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.
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Are the aims and values of the Labour Party those espoused by Liz Kendall, who disagrees with the former leader, or those promoted by Jeremy Corbyn, who has regularly voted against his own party, and does not have the support of the majority of Labour MPs?0
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Yes, but its not a leadership of the Labour Party he is contesting - a Labour Party as you mean it. It is the leadership of a new party created by the £3 migrants that will still call itself the Labour Party. He himself, Corbyn, could not have attracted enough nominations except from MPs who in reality do not support him. Its the Labour Party that put him in this position that deserves obliteration and Corbyn will oblige.DavidL said:The excuse that governments have to speak to the political representatives of terrorists and other bigots really doesn't wash for an obscure back bencher. When he shares a platform with these people he cannot really believe he is a part of a peace process (unless he is totally delusional), he is supporting their cause as a player in the game (which Corbyn was not).
When he did that he chose to associate with some very unpleasant people with morally contemptible views. When doing so he did not think it necessary to challenge those views but instead he called these players "friends". The "governments do this" line is frankly ridiculous and he should be called on it.
But I don't think this is going to make any difference to the result. He has campaigned for this and the others haven't. He has generated enthusiasm. He has brought new blood into the party. I think he just might destroy the Labour party as a party of government but he deserves to win. And the others don't.
Should tories offer the hand of friendship to all those right wing labourites that have been vilified? Would it make the tories too inclusive? Too broad a church??
I imagine the tories would not want the gullible useful idiots who would just shrug their shoulders at Corbyn, but genuine um... thinkers? And of course there are the labour voters on the right of the party - why should the tories just watch them scurry to the lib dems?0 -
A huge difference between taking a robust line against Israel's exesses which is overwhelmingly popular with all but a small pro Istraeli lobby (usually right wingers anyway) and consorting with racists and anti semites. No one seriously believes Corbyn is a racist or an anti semite. As it stands Corbyns position on the Middle East is almost certainly helping his cause.
His achilles heel are the unions and the dangers he poses to party unity. I'm sure Burnham and Kendall are dead in the water and the only thing standing between Corbyn and the leadership is Cooper.0 -
Jezza supporters have just completely tuned out to any revelations that will in any case only have an impact at the margin and that simply isn't enough to swing the Jezza coronation.
They want Jezza and they don't care.0 -
It is interesting that this, right wing view has sort of become the orthodoxy. I backed YC because she seemed to me the most competent of the lot but, and back to the original point about us not doing Lab very well, I am a Cons supporter.Financier said:
A lot is about the perception of competence. Neither Burnham nor Cooper appear remotely competent for anything. Kendall looks too competent for the current tastes of Labour. Whilst Corbyn (rather like EdM) looks competent regarding problem identification but also like EdM totally incompetent on providing viable and economic solutions.TOPPING said:There was a great post by someone (apols can't remember) saying how PB did Cons' thinking well but were less sure of Lab thinking.
Lab have now joined UKIP & the LDs in needing to work out what they are for. And they must then communicate this clearly to the electorate.
Centrist-ish but nice doesn't seem to have worked.
I'm not saying that we are at the end of (political) history. Yet. But I can understand the rationale of trying out further left as a uniquely Labour position. The slight shame, as @alex. pointed out, is that Jezza is not the left wing candidate to succeed at anything. They needed a grown-up left winger and sadly haven't got one.
If different from Jezza's, I would be interested to hear @JWisemann's view of what Lab should think or look like.
Little wonder a) leftish Lab like Jezza; and b) non-leftish Lab are in despair.0 -
I'm not at the stage of thinking there is a conspiracy over the report's release: its just a bunch of bundling incompetents who, despite being well-paid and supposedly intelligent lawyers, have not realised that being 'independent' does not mean that you do not have a responsibility to be timely as well as thorough.Financier said:FPT
The Chilcott report was successfully held up so that it was not published before the 2015GE, and now looks as if the same is happening for the Labour leadership elections. What is the next impediment for the interested parties involved?
However today's story in the Independent makes me wonder if they are actually intelligent enough to run such an inquiry. Can someone send them some tinfoil hats?0 -
Yes, that's basically the last Labour government's contribution to our society: identity based politics.Innocent_Abroad said:
BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.0 -
The FTSE has dropped from a high of 7104 in May to current 6375, when will it return to the 5000s?
Brent Crude goes below $47.0 -
I sense a slight improvement for Cooper and Burnham will crash and burn but, otherwise, yes, I agree: too little, too late.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
40-50% of votes have probably already been cast.0 -
I think there's ever more room than ever before for a new party of moderate labour, which would be attractive to many in the centre.flightpath01 said:
Yes, but its not a leadership of the Labour Party he is contesting - a Labour Party as you mean it. It is the leadership of a new party created by the £3 migrants that will still call itself the Labour Party. He himself, Corbyn, could not have attracted enough nominations except from MPs who in reality do not support him. Its the Labour Party that put him in this position that deserves obliteration and Corbyn will oblige.DavidL said:The excuse that governments have to speak to the political representatives of terrorists and other bigots really doesn't wash for an obscure back bencher. When he shares a platform with these people he cannot really believe he is a part of a peace process (unless he is totally delusional), he is supporting their cause as a player in the game (which Corbyn was not).
When he did that he chose to associate with some very unpleasant people with morally contemptible views. When doing so he did not think it necessary to challenge those views but instead he called these players "friends". The "governments do this" line is frankly ridiculous and he should be called on it.
But I don't think this is going to make any difference to the result. He has campaigned for this and the others haven't. He has generated enthusiasm. He has brought new blood into the party. I think he just might destroy the Labour party as a party of government but he deserves to win. And the others don't.
Should tories offer the hand of friendship to all those right wing labourites that have been vilified? Would it make the tories too inclusive? Too broad a church??
I imagine the tories would not want the gullible useful idiots who would just shrug their shoulders at Corbyn, but genuine um... thinkers? And of course there are the labour voters on the right of the party - why should the tories just watch them scurry to the lib dems?
The issue is 'how' different that would be from the tory party under Cameron.0 -
Indeed. Someone could release a video of Corbyn kicking a puppy, and his supporters would probably claim it was a tory.JackW said:Jezza supporters have just completely tuned out to any revelations that will in any case only have an impact at the margin and that simply isn't enough to swing the Jezza coronation.
They want Jezza and they don't care.0 -
I would not call it a conspiracy, but interested parties can use delaying tactics in the hope that the later the report is published, then the more its impact will be diminished and the longer the grass will have grown.JosiasJessop said:
I'm not at the stage of thinking there is a conspiracy over the report's release: its just a bunch of bundling incompetents who, despite being well-paid and supposedly intelligent lawyers, have not realised that being 'independent' does not mean that you do not have a responsibility to be timely as well as thorough.Financier said:FPT
The Chilcott report was successfully held up so that it was not published before the 2015GE, and now looks as if the same is happening for the Labour leadership elections. What is the next impediment for the interested parties involved?
However today's story in the Independent makes me wonder if they are actually intelligent enough to run such an inquiry. Can someone send them some tinfoil hats?0 -
SO.
"Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots"
They sound like a 70's pop group.0 -
That was pretty much what Liz Kendall was proposing, her view being that elections are won in the competent centre. See Blair, T, and Cameron, D, for recent successful examples.Slackbladder said:
I think there's ever more room than ever before for a new party of moderate labour, which would be attractive to many in the centre.flightpath01 said:
Yes, but its not a leadership of the Labour Party he is contesting - a Labour Party as you mean it. It is the leadership of a new party created by the £3 migrants that will still call itself the Labour Party. He himself, Corbyn, could not have attracted enough nominations except from MPs who in reality do not support him. Its the Labour Party that put him in this position that deserves obliteration and Corbyn will oblige.DavidL said:The excuse that governments have to speak to the political representatives of terrorists and other bigots really doesn't wash for an obscure back bencher. When he shares a platform with these people he cannot really believe he is a part of a peace process (unless he is totally delusional), he is supporting their cause as a player in the game (which Corbyn was not).
When he did that he chose to associate with some very unpleasant people with morally contemptible views. When doing so he did not think it necessary to challenge those views but instead he called these players "friends". The "governments do this" line is frankly ridiculous and he should be called on it.
But I don't think this is going to make any difference to the result. He has campaigned for this and the others haven't. He has generated enthusiasm. He has brought new blood into the party. I think he just might destroy the Labour party as a party of government but he deserves to win. And the others don't.
Should tories offer the hand of friendship to all those right wing labourites that have been vilified? Would it make the tories too inclusive? Too broad a church??
I imagine the tories would not want the gullible useful idiots who would just shrug their shoulders at Corbyn, but genuine um... thinkers? And of course there are the labour voters on the right of the party - why should the tories just watch them scurry to the lib dems?
The issue is 'how' different that would be from the tory party under Cameron.
As we can see from the graph above though, the current Labour Party and organisation don't appear to agree with her.0 -
If only everyone was a Tory we'd be living in an earthly paradise, eh, CR?Casino_Royale said:
Yes, that's basically the last Labour government's contribution to our society: identity based politics.Innocent_Abroad said:
BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.
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It is back to where it was at the beginning of the year. No panic, but the sell off in emerging markets and commodities is creating some bargains. Cheap oil is quite a good economic stimulus!Financier said:The FTSE has dropped from a high of 7104 in May to current 6375, when will it return to the 5000s?
Brent Crude goes below $47.0 -
Morning all.
Corbynites are not listening, - any criticism, from whichever quarter, is merely ignored as either establishment smears or as a reasonable position because (fill in blank space here).
[edit] @JackW "They want Jezza and they don't care."
Indeed so, there is nothing 'rational' about this group worship.0 -
I backed her at 200/1 yesterday. Actually think that was value. Yes, she's going to come last, but at least she's still in the race.Charles said:How can Kendall have a negative percentage chance of winning?
LOL!
How could she win? In theory, if she polled better than Burnham, got his transfers, then went ahead of Cooper on those reallocations and Corbyn did wildly underperform, it's not totally impossible for it to be much close under AV.
I've backed far worse 200/1 shots.0 -
Very apt for a 70s revival of socialism.Roger said:SO.
"Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots"
They sound like a 70's pop group.
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Well this is going to stop Corbyn.
@rupertmurdoch: Corbyn increasingly likely Labor winner. Seems only candidate who believes anything, right or wrong.
So the Great Satan to the lefties, Rupert Murdoch, has just endorsed Corbyn, after a fashion.0 -
The evidence strongly indicates that Labour is now the Stupid Party and has been for a while.Innocent_Abroad said:
BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.
I would vote for a moderate social democratic party: one that believes people at the top should pay a little more tax, that understands who delivers public services is far less important than the quality of the service delivered, one that embraces capitalism but sees its flaws and does not automatically assume the private sector has a monopoly on wisdom, one that is committed to the maintenance of the UK, one that focuses relentlessly on equality of opportunity, one whose first instincts are to ensure change does not have a negative impact on the most vulnerable and one that understands soft power, rather than military force, is what can and should set the UK apart. I agree that identity politics is all too prevalent these days, but I don't believe that it has to be.
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Just to illustrate why my school score was 8/51: the school band was "Acne and the armpits" with that crowdpleaser "I am an armpit".Roger said:SO.
"Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots"
They sound like a 70's pop group.
Well it was 1979!0 -
there's more chance of Greece getting their marbles back than LabourTheScreamingEagles said:Well this is going to stop Corbyn.
@rupertmurdoch: Corbyn increasingly likely Labor winner. Seems only candidate who believes anything, right or wrong.
So the Great Satan to the lefties, Rupert Murdoch, has just endorsed Corbyn, after a fashion.0 -
You're learning.Innocent_Abroad said:
If only everyone was a Tory we'd be living in an earthly paradise, eh, CR?Casino_Royale said:
Yes, that's basically the last Labour government's contribution to our society: identity based politics.Innocent_Abroad said:
BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.0 -
Sir John Chilcott. One of the worst examples of an incompetent mandarin. No wonder Labour liked him.0
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SO
It's difficult for most on the centre left to see how a Cooper/Corbyn/Kendall victory would be different from a Cameron/Osborne one. They've had three months to sell themselves and few of us are any the wiser.
Before them Ed had five years and the sum of our understanding of his brand of left wing politics was a giant stone with six meaningless platitudes.
Are you surprised that Labour activists are now in the mood to throw their balls in the air in the hope that they land in a more interesting place?0 -
I agree. That is why I voted Kendall.SouthamObserver said:
The evidence strongly indicates that Labour is now the Stupid Party and has been for a while.Innocent_Abroad said:
BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.
I would vote for a moderate social democratic party: one that believes people at the top should pay a little more tax, that understands who delivers public services is far less important than the quality of the service delivered, one that embraces capitalism but sees its flaws and does not automatically assume the private sector has a monopoly on wisdom, one that is committed to the maintenance of the UK, one that focuses relentlessly on equality of opportunity, one whose first instincts are to ensure change does not have a negative impact on the most vulnerable and one that understands soft power, rather than military force, is what can and should set the UK apart. I agree that identity politics is all too prevalent these days, but I don't believe that it has to be.0 -
Yep - I launched them last night. They are very 79.Roger said:SO.
"Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots"
They sound like a 70's pop group.
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What I'm finding REALLY hard to get my head around is the horror that sensible Labourites must be experiencing.
If someone told me that the Tories were about to elect a supporter of a Holocaust denier, hugged terrorists as a hobby, was still a member of the Monday Club, divorced their wife for not sending their kid to public school and called similar far-rightists *friends* = I'd be APPALLED.
It's only by putting it in those terms that I can even begin to understand what Labour are doing. And I still can't believe it's happening.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.0 -
How will the Zoomers handle this? Dare they criticise Liz Lochhead?
Anti-Englishness is not recognised in Scotland as racism. We do not consider ourselves racists, so how can we be guilty of racism? Scots may not like English people getting big jobs in their line of work; they may make comments about “English bastards” or “English bitches”; they may ridicule someone’s English accent; but that’s not like slagging off Jews or Asians, is it? Anti-Englishness isn’t proper racism, is it?
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4532619.ece
Well, yes it is. So when Lochhead this week follows her friend, the novelist and artist Alasdair Gray, in complaining about too many immigrants taking good jobs that should go to proper, native, Scottish people, I have no hesitation in pointing out the similarities between her rhetoric and that of Nigel Farage.0 -
While simultaneously turning a blind eye to war crimes committed by his friends and associates.Slackbladder said:
If Jez wins, we could have an interesting position of the current leader of a political party wanting a prior leader to be arrested for war crimes.Financier said:FPT
The Chilcott report was successfully held up so that it was not published before the 2015GE, and now looks as if the same is happening for the Labour leadership elections. What is the next impediment for the interested parties involved?
"Interesting" doesn't quite cover it.
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Dodgy...
'Schools are using community languages such as Urdu and Polish to give themselves “an easy hit” to gain top grade GCSE passes and boost their rankings in league tables, a leading academic has said.
Figures show that more than one in three (36 per cent) of candidates who sit GCSEs in community languages obtain an A* grade - the highest figure for any subject and seven time as many as those who get the top grade for maths.'
...and
'The report also shows that pupils in Northern Ireland are “well in front” when it comes to exam passes with 78 per cent obtaining five A* to C grade passes compared with 68.6 per cent for England and 66.6 per cent for Wales.
“It is not a popular thing to say but an obvious candidate to account for NI’s success ... is its grammar school system,” says the report. '
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/schools-using-community-languages-such-as-urdu-and-polish-to-boost-their-rankings-in-league-tables-says-leading-academic-10462840.html0 -
Marcus Chown tweets that he has always voted Labour, but has had his ballot rejected.0
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People are making the mistake of assuming the Chilcott inquiry was set up to find out anything and report back promptly.
It wasn't. It was set up to deal with the demands for an inquiry by kicking them into the long grass. Remember who set it up - the man who was a key member of the government involved in the decision to go to war.
That's why it got a Chairman who is a third rate civil servant, has a panel consisting of nonentities who couldn't take the skin off a rice pudding, and why it was given no deadline. It has achieved its purpose - to stop anything embarrassing being said about senior Labour politicians while they were still in power or even in Parliament - beautifully.
If we want to find out about the decision to go to war in Iraq in 2003, we would need a proper inquiry, with all relevant documents published, a proper, sharp timetable, forensic questioners etc. We won't get one.0 -
The more 'the establishment' in all its guises attacks JC, the firmer his support will become.
This isn't a personality cult, it is a chance to break from the imposed consensus. We have seen it happen in Greece, it may be happening in Spain, so let's bring it to Britain. If it fails, the Tories will be in government, but that was going to happen anyway.0 -
Rupert always backs those he thinks will win.TheScreamingEagles said:Well this is going to stop Corbyn.
@rupertmurdoch: Corbyn increasingly likely Labor winner. Seems only candidate who believes anything, right or wrong.
So the Great Satan to the lefties, Rupert Murdoch, has just endorsed Corbyn, after a fashion.0 -
Post of the day!Alanbrooke said:
there's more chance of Greece getting their marbles back than LabourTheScreamingEagles said:Well this is going to stop Corbyn.
@rupertmurdoch: Corbyn increasingly likely Labor winner. Seems only candidate who believes anything, right or wrong.
So the Great Satan to the lefties, Rupert Murdoch, has just endorsed Corbyn, after a fashion.0 -
So bad they are let off fines.Financier said:The troubled Co-operative Bank has reported bigger losses, in part due to higher legal costs.
Pre-tax losses for the first six months of the year were £204.2m, compared with losses of £77m a year earlier. The figure was slightly better than expected.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33999141
"At the end of last year, the bank failed a Bank of England stress test, designed to test banks' ability to withstand another financial crisis."
"And last week, a regulatory report criticised the bank for misleading investors. The bank escaped a fine, however, because the regulator said it needed all the money it has to strengthen its balance sheet."0 -
I agree , this is all way too late ...the other candidates should have Blitzed Corbyn weeks ago and totally humiliated him , but they all lacked the attack dog mode , Burnham was the most toothless of all , and now its all too late , Corbyn will win (probably on the first ballot)Casino_Royale said:
I sense a slight improvement for Cooper and Burnham will crash and burn but, otherwise, yes, I agree: too little, too late.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
40-50% of votes have probably already been cast.
The only slight hope is for something completely embarrassing to come out about Corbyn that will force him to quit the race or resign before he takes his position as leader
The LP deserve Corbyn ; they are totally anachronistic and outdated ; it's only poetic justice that a quasi Marxist fool from the 1970s leads them in their suicide jump off the cliff edge
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I agree. I would vote for such a party. But the Labour party is not that party and does not even look like it wants to be such a party. More fool them.SouthamObserver said:
The evidence strongly indicates that Labour is now the Stupid Party and has been for a while.Innocent_Abroad said:
BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.
I would vote for a moderate social democratic party: one that believes people at the top should pay a little more tax, that understands who delivers public services is far less important than the quality of the service delivered, one that embraces capitalism but sees its flaws and does not automatically assume the private sector has a monopoly on wisdom, one that is committed to the maintenance of the UK, one that focuses relentlessly on equality of opportunity, one whose first instincts are to ensure change does not have a negative impact on the most vulnerable and one that understands soft power, rather than military force, is what can and should set the UK apart. I agree that identity politics is all too prevalent these days, but I don't believe that it has to be.
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It's gone down to 6,375. Wow. I haven't noticed. I traded out at 6950 to buy a house earlier this year. Can't help but feel extremely lucky.Financier said:The FTSE has dropped from a high of 7104 in May to current 6375, when will it return to the 5000s?
Brent Crude goes below $47.
0 -
Isn't he a member of the NHS activist party though ?Gadfly said:Marcus Chown tweets that he has always voted Labour, but has had his ballot rejected.
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Osbornomics in action.tyson said:
It's gone down to 6,375. Wow. I haven't noticed. I traded out at 6950 to buy a house earlier this year. Can't help but feel extremely lucky.Financier said:The FTSE has dropped from a high of 7104 in May to current 6375, when will it return to the 5000s?
Brent Crude goes below $47.
Your pension has never been safer.
Oh wait....0 -
Is Chilcott going to tell us anything that we didn't know already about the rotten centre of New Labour?Cyclefree said:People are making the mistake of assuming the Chilcott inquiry was set up to find out anything and report back promptly.
It wasn't. It was set up to deal with the demands for an inquiry by kicking them into the long grass. Remember who set it up - the man who was a key member of the government involved in the decision to go to war.
That's why it got a Chairman who is a third rate civil servant, has a panel consisting of nonentities who couldn't take the skin off a rice pudding, and why it was given no deadline. It has achieved its purpose - to stop anything embarrassing being said about senior Labour politicians while they were still in power or even in Parliament - beautifully.
If we want to find out about the decision to go to war in Iraq in 2003, we would need a proper inquiry, with all relevant documents published, a proper, sharp timetable, forensic questioners etc. We won't get one.
Corbyn was right about the second gulf war and its consequences that we see on Kos and in Calais. What we are seeing with Corbyn is the chickens coming home to roost from that unpopular war.0 -
But, the real puzzle is why PB Labour people such as NickP and BJowls back Corbyn. They have fallen in love. Mad and funny to watch. Impossible to rationalise.Plato said:What I'm finding REALLY hard to get my head around is the horror that sensible Labourites must be experiencing.
If someone told me that the Tories were about to elect a supporter of a Holocaust denier, hugged terrorists as a hobby, was still a member of the Monday Club, divorced their wife for not sending their kid to public school and called similar far-rightists *friends* = I'd be APPALLED...antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
0 -
I don't have an issue with polish and Pakistani kids getting decent GCSEs in Polish and Urdu.isam said:Dodgy...
'Schools are using community languages such as Urdu and Polish to give themselves “an easy hit” to gain top grade GCSE passes and boost their rankings in league tables, a leading academic has said.
Figures show that more than one in three (36 per cent) of candidates who sit GCSEs in community languages obtain an A* grade - the highest figure for any subject and seven time as many as those who get the top grade for maths.'
...and
'The report also shows that pupils in Northern Ireland are “well in front” when it comes to exam passes with 78 per cent obtaining five A* to C grade passes compared with 68.6 per cent for England and 66.6 per cent for Wales.
“It is not a popular thing to say but an obvious candidate to account for NI’s success ... is its grammar school system,” says the report. '
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/schools-using-community-languages-such-as-urdu-and-polish-to-boost-their-rankings-in-league-tables-says-leading-academic-10462840.html
I also think that the grammar school system is an excellent one, on the proviso that secondary moderns receive the same funding as grammars !0 -
The Corbyn supporters I met outside of a rally in Middlesbrough were mostly the types who didn't grasp even the basics of the political spectrum IE ...Right and Left ...their support for Corbyn was of a revivalist nature ,just pure emotion,,,Corbyn had ''reached ''them with idealistic , but unrealistic phrases that had ''chimed '' and now they were hooked on 'hope and change ''
These are the folks who are going to follow Corbyn in his death march over the cliff edge ...I do not realistically expect the LP to recover from this debacle
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I absolutely understand why they want to do it. It's the impulse of a drunken teenager at a boring dinner party who decides to set fire to the table cloth in the hope of making the dinner more interesting. Neither Kendall nor Cooper nor Burnham have impressed. This is what Labour has been reduced to - a husk of a party with few talented people in it and so rotten that it can be taken over by those wanting to vote for someone whose world view is so out of date and malign in its effect that it was comprehensively trashed by George Orwell in the 1940's.Roger said:SO
It's difficult for most on the centre left to see how a Cooper/Corbyn/Kendall victory would be different from a Cameron/Osborne one. They've had three months to sell themselves and few of us are any the wiser.
Before them Ed had five years and the sum of our understanding of his brand of left wing politics was a giant stone with six meaningless platitudes.
Are you surprised that Labour activists are now in the mood to throw their balls in the air in the hope that they land in a more interesting place?
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Agreed - the essence of any political party that wants to govern is to lean to the centre. Nick Palmer comes out of all this very badly - thank heavens the Broxtowe voters kept him out.SouthamObserver said:
The evidence strongly indicates that Labour is now the Stupid Party and has been for a while.Innocent_Abroad said:
BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.
I would vote for a moderate social democratic party: one that believes people at the top should pay a little more tax, that understands who delivers public services is far less important than the quality of the service delivered, one that embraces capitalism but sees its flaws and does not automatically assume the private sector has a monopoly on wisdom, one that is committed to the maintenance of the UK, one that focuses relentlessly on equality of opportunity, one whose first instincts are to ensure change does not have a negative impact on the most vulnerable and one that understands soft power, rather than military force, is what can and should set the UK apart. I agree that identity politics is all too prevalent these days, but I don't believe that it has to be.
One thing I do wonder is how will Corbyn be received by the PLP in the H/C at QT for example? With barely 40 sympathetic MPs and many more hostile things could look pretty ugly very quickly.0 -
FPT:
"F1: just from the gossip column: it seems like the sport will shift to a ground effect approach from 2017.
That could be a sea change in relative performance. It could provide a golden opportunity for McLaren to bounce back, especially as they hired Prodromou[sp], formerly the top aero chap working under Adrian Newey at Red Bull."0 -
Mr. Foxinsox, ISIS began in Syria. Without the Iraq war of Blair, it's perhaps unlikely they would've spread to Saddam's Iraq, but then, that country might also have been torn apart by the so-called Arab Spring.0
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Mr Observer,
Well argued.
"I would vote for a moderate social democratic party:"
I would and have done many times. The tacit agreement has been breached, though. The one that says the hard left in their many manifestations should talk loudly but have no say in policy - full of sound and fury and signifying nothing. They should continue to be that embarrassing uncle at the wedding who occasionally drinks a lot and makes a fool of himself - but he is family.
Tony was a bit too glib though so I went to the LDs until the last election. Ed ...????
Tories were always the opposition not the enemies.
I still believe Labour will come to their senses. They let Mrs Rochester take over for a while and then the unions decided on gormless Ed.
Now they're peeking into Pandora's box. Leave that lid alone!
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The psychology of Rupert murdoch is fascinating - he seems to have an instinctive respect for any underdog who challenges the established order.TheScreamingEagles said:Well this is going to stop Corbyn.
@rupertmurdoch: Corbyn increasingly likely Labor winner. Seems only candidate who believes anything, right or wrong.
So the Great Satan to the lefties, Rupert Murdoch, has just endorsed Corbyn, after a fashion.
Classic second child.0 -
Fox- Kendall's approach is indeed more electable but Labour need to find someone who can articulate these ideas with much more authority and gravitas- something which Kendell lacks.
It would be like the Tories electing Oliver Letwin- someone whose philosophy is deeply rooted in the centre ground, but he couldn't carry it off as leader.foxinsoxuk said:
I agree. That is why I voted Kendall.SouthamObserver said:Innocent_Abroad said:
BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.0 -
I've never voted Labour, but if Oli Letwin and Liz Kendall were the respective leaders...tyson said:Fox- Kendall's approach is indeed more electable but Labour need to find someone who can articulate these ideas with much more authority and gravitas- something which Kendell lacks.
It would be like the Tories electing Oliver Letwin- someone whose philosophy is deeply rooted in the centre ground, but he couldn't carry it off as leader.foxinsoxuk said:
I agree. That is why I voted Kendall.SouthamObserver said:Innocent_Abroad said:
BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.0 -
Doesn't it give schools w a high proportion of children from polish or Urdu speaking countries an unfair advantage in the race for £££?Pulpstar said:
I don't have an issue with polish and Pakistani kids getting decent GCSEs in Polish and Urdu.isam said:Dodgy...
'Schools are using community languages such as Urdu and Polish to give themselves “an easy hit” to gain top grade GCSE passes and boost their rankings in league tables, a leading academic has said.
Figures show that more than one in three (36 per cent) of candidates who sit GCSEs in community languages obtain an A* grade - the highest figure for any subject and seven time as many as those who get the top grade for maths.'
...and
'The report also shows that pupils in Northern Ireland are “well in front” when it comes to exam passes with 78 per cent obtaining five A* to C grade passes compared with 68.6 per cent for England and 66.6 per cent for Wales.
“It is not a popular thing to say but an obvious candidate to account for NI’s success ... is its grammar school system,” says the report. '
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/schools-using-community-languages-such-as-urdu-and-polish-to-boost-their-rankings-in-league-tables-says-leading-academic-10462840.html
I also think that the grammar school system is an excellent one, on the proviso that secondary moderns receive the same funding as grammars !0 -
UKIP know exactly what they are for - getting us out of the EU whether or not that takes 10 more years of eurozone chaos first.TOPPING said:There was a great post by someone (apols can't remember) saying how PB did Cons' thinking well but were less sure of Lab thinking.
Lab have now joined UKIP & the LDs in needing to work out what they are for. And they must then communicate this clearly to the electorate.
Centrist-ish but nice doesn't seem to have worked.
I'm not saying that we are at the end of (political) history. Yet. But I can understand the rationale of trying out further left as a uniquely Labour position. The slight shame, as @alex. pointed out, is that Jezza is not the left wing candidate to succeed at anything. They needed a grown-up left winger and sadly haven't got one.
If different from Jezza's, I would be interested to hear @JWisemann's view of what Lab should think or look like.
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Mr. Pulpstar, if Burnham's Mascara Man, Letwin may well be Bananaman.0
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The revelations may be too late to affect the election but they will keep on coming over the next few years and will be repeated at moments of maximum possible embarrassment e.g any time there is a terrorist atrocity in the UK or in Europe and it turns out that someone Corbyn shilled for or invited or praised or the groups he is chair of or involved in says something repellent he will find himself on the defensive and the meme will slowly develop that Labour is somehow on the side of those who hate us and want to kill us. One widow of a dead soldier asking Corbyn or any Labour MP why their leader wanted invited to Britain and sat beside a man who was glad that her husband had been killed, asking what such a party has to say to her and her fatherless children.Casino_Royale said:
I sense a slight improvement for Cooper and Burnham will crash and burn but, otherwise, yes, I agree: too little, too late.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
40-50% of votes have probably already been cast.
Some gruesome atrocity against Yazidis or Christians or others by IS and Labour MPs with their face in their hands in Parliament as Corbyn is asked whether he still agrees with the statement by Stop the War that action should not be taken against IS because the US is involved.
As Adams might put it, the questions "haven't gone away".
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Guilt ridden Leftie milks the capitalist system. And this from the individual who blanks friends and family for voting Tory?!tyson said:
It's gone down to 6,375. Wow. I haven't noticed. I traded out at 6950 to buy a house earlier this year. Can't help but feel extremely lucky.Financier said:The FTSE has dropped from a high of 7104 in May to current 6375, when will it return to the 5000s?
Brent Crude goes below $47.0 -
Oh very much this. I've never been a member of any party, but I've generally voted conservative as the 'least-worst' option.SouthamObserver said:
The evidence strongly indicates that Labour is now the Stupid Party and has been for a while.Innocent_Abroad said:SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
I would vote for a moderate social democratic party: one that believes people at the top should pay a little more tax, that understands who delivers public services is far less important than the quality of the service delivered, one that embraces capitalism but sees its flaws and does not automatically assume the private sector has a monopoly on wisdom, one that is committed to the maintenance of the UK, one that focuses relentlessly on equality of opportunity, one whose first instincts are to ensure change does not have a negative impact on the most vulnerable and one that understands soft power, rather than military force, is what can and should set the UK apart. I agree that identity politics is all too prevalent these days, but I don't believe that it has to be.
However, I am a sopping wet conservative - as socially liberal as you like, but the government has to run its finances well.
My only differences from Southam is (possibly) that 'people at the top' should include wealthy pensioners and I don't particularly care about the union (as I've said before, I'm a BOO, so how can I not support Scottish independence?).
I could certainly be persuaded to vote for a party that espoused Southam's expressed values.0 -
@ Roger
"Are you surprised that Labour activists are now in the mood to throw their balls in the air in the hope that they land in a more interesting place? "
But they're not throwing their balls in the air, they're throwing them away. They are castrating the Labour Party, excluding it from any chance of power for at least a decade, possibly a generation and conceivably ever again.
Gordon Brown may turn out to be last Labour PM of the UK. How apt.0 -
Looks like all those Global warming CO2 predictions are overstated by 10% per annum.
China's burning the wrong kind of coal
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-339722470 -
No doubt word of the latest YouGov will have reached him.Slackbladder said:
Rupert always backs those he thinks will win.TheScreamingEagles said:Well this is going to stop Corbyn.
@rupertmurdoch: Corbyn increasingly likely Labor winner. Seems only candidate who believes anything, right or wrong.
So the Great Satan to the lefties, Rupert Murdoch, has just endorsed Corbyn, after a fashion.0 -
They'd claim it was an Israeli, and cheer louder.Slackbladder said:
Indeed. Someone could release a video of Corbyn kicking a puppy, and his supporters would probably claim it was a tory.JackW said:Jezza supporters have just completely tuned out to any revelations that will in any case only have an impact at the margin and that simply isn't enough to swing the Jezza coronation.
They want Jezza and they don't care.0 -
It will partly depending on the scale of his win (if win it is - I remain calm, a la Hatwal). A huge win means Lab MPs will need to respect the membership and keep down for a few months. John Mann in today's DT saying JC will probably get a chance to reclaim something in Scotland in May 2016 Holyrood elections.felix said:
Agreed - the essence of any political party that wants to govern is to lean to the centre. Nick Palmer comes out of all this very badly - thank heavens the Broxtowe voters kept him out.SouthamObserver said:
The evidence strongly indicates that Labour is now the Stupid Party and has been for a while.Innocent_Abroad said:
BTW, the "Stupid Party" is traditionally the Tories...SouthamObserver said:
Yep. Nick Palmer and the Useful Idiots have closed their eyes to what was and is plain to see. They'll take a little time to acknowledge this, but the sheer weight of evidence - speeches, photos, recordings, videos etc - will leave them little choice. But not before they have set back the cause of moderate, electorally viable social democracy by many, many years.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.
Why would anyone want to vote for "moderate social democracy"? It's boring and it ignores the basic rule that politics are about the sources of political cleavage, i.e. race, class and religion.
We are moving from class-based politics to identity politics (except in the Six Counties, which have never had anything else). This move means that Labour is an idea whose time has gone. For all that right-wingers moan about "the politics of envy" they'll miss it when it's gone. Boy, will they ever.
snipped
One thing I do wonder is how will Corbyn be received by the PLP in the H/C at QT for example? With barely 40 sympathetic MPs and many more hostile things could look pretty ugly very quickly.0 -
IS began in East Syria because they had support from fellow travellers in the Sunni fighters fighting the Shiite Iraqi government. The two are one phenomenon.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Foxinsox, ISIS began in Syria. Without the Iraq war of Blair, it's perhaps unlikely they would've spread to Saddam's Iraq, but then, that country might also have been torn apart by the so-called Arab Spring.
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Mr. Foxinsox, but it's sheer speculation that the situation would not have arisen had we not toppled Saddam. It's possible it would be even worse.0
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Is that why Corbyn was against the Iraq war? Because it would lead to increased immigration into Europe? I don't think so - he's in favour of immigration. He was against it because the US were leading it. Do you really think that if there had been a second UN resolution the opposition of the Stop the War group would have disappeared? I don't.foxinsoxuk said:
Is Chilcott going to tell us anything that we didn't know already about the rotten centre of New Labour?Cyclefree said:People are making the mistake of assuming the Chilcott inquiry was set up to find out anything and report back promptly.
It wasn't. It was set up to deal with the demands for an inquiry by kicking them into the long grass. Remember who set it up - the man who was a key member of the government involved in the decision to go to war.
That's why it got a Chairman who is a third rate civil servant, has a panel consisting of nonentities who couldn't take the skin off a rice pudding, and why it was given no deadline. It has achieved its purpose - to stop anything embarrassing being said about senior Labour politicians while they were still in power or even in Parliament - beautifully.
If we want to find out about the decision to go to war in Iraq in 2003, we would need a proper inquiry, with all relevant documents published, a proper, sharp timetable, forensic questioners etc. We won't get one.
Corbyn was right about the second gulf war and its consequences that we see on Kos and in Calais. What we are seeing with Corbyn is the chickens coming home to roost from that unpopular war.
And I thought someone posted on here a few days ago polls showing that even at the height of the opposition, the was was supported by a majority. I may be wrong on this.
Certainly Labour are now paying the price for the emptiness and dishonesty and moral vacuousness at the heart of Blair and Brown's Labour. But they are replacing it with the Left's own emptiness and dishonesty and moral vacuousness.
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It falls into the *but they're really nice when you get to know them* category.TCPoliticalBetting said:
But, the real puzzle is why PB Labour people such as NickP and BJowls back Corbyn. They have fallen in love. Mad and funny to watch. Impossible to rationalise.Plato said:What I'm finding REALLY hard to get my head around is the horror that sensible Labourites must be experiencing.
If someone told me that the Tories were about to elect a supporter of a Holocaust denier, hugged terrorists as a hobby, was still a member of the Monday Club, divorced their wife for not sending their kid to public school and called similar far-rightists *friends* = I'd be APPALLED...antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.0 -
DanSmith said:
Rupert always backs those he thinks will winSlackbladder said:
Rupert always backs those he thinks will win.TheScreamingEagles said:Well this is going to stop Corbyn.
@rupertmurdoch: Corbyn increasingly likely Labor winner. Seems only candidate who believes anything, right or wrong.
So the Great Satan to the lefties, Rupert Murdoch, has just endorsed Corbyn, after a fashion.
The Sun has backed the candidate who will finish a poor last0 -
Nah I don't think that's a worry. It's one GCSE. If a kid happens to be bilingual, good luck to them ! They may well find English tougher, too. A swing and a roundabout.isam said:
Doesn't it give schools w a high proportion of children from polish or Urdu speaking countries an unfair advantage in the race for £££?Pulpstar said:
I don't have an issue with polish and Pakistani kids getting decent GCSEs in Polish and Urdu.isam said:Dodgy...
'Schools are using community languages such as Urdu and Polish to give themselves “an easy hit” to gain top grade GCSE passes and boost their rankings in league tables, a leading academic has said.
Figures show that more than one in three (36 per cent) of candidates who sit GCSEs in community languages obtain an A* grade - the highest figure for any subject and seven time as many as those who get the top grade for maths.'
...and
'The report also shows that pupils in Northern Ireland are “well in front” when it comes to exam passes with 78 per cent obtaining five A* to C grade passes compared with 68.6 per cent for England and 66.6 per cent for Wales.
“It is not a popular thing to say but an obvious candidate to account for NI’s success ... is its grammar school system,” says the report. '
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/schools-using-community-languages-such-as-urdu-and-polish-to-boost-their-rankings-in-league-tables-says-leading-academic-10462840.html
I also think that the grammar school system is an excellent one, on the proviso that secondary moderns receive the same funding as grammars !0 -
Looks like Jezza gets his first foreign policy test.
Who will he back North or South Korea ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3204452/North-Korea-shells-South-Korean-military-unit-stationed-countries-shared-border.html0 -
I don't think it is quite as bad as you predict. It seems to me more likely that JC will (if he wins) be given a couple of years. There'll be some kind of honeymoon with the public as they enjoy a bit of change and then, next year, the appalling polls, the by-election loses, the policy howlers, the skeletons in the Sun's photo drawer etc will follow. Coup by 2018 at latest.Kinga said:@ Roger
"Are you surprised that Labour activists are now in the mood to throw their balls in the air in the hope that they land in a more interesting place? "
But they're not throwing their balls in the air, they're throwing them away. They are castrating the Labour Party, excluding it from any chance of power for at least a decade, possibly a generation and conceivably ever again.
Gordon Brown may turn out to be last Labour PM of the UK. How apt.0 -
Mr. Borough, one would guess the Conservatives will be keen to define Corbyn early on, as they did with Miliband/Red Ed.0
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We are safe with Cameron though,Alanbrooke said:Looks like Jezza gets his first foreign policy test.
Who will he back North or South Korea ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3204452/North-Korea-shells-South-Korean-military-unit-stationed-countries-shared-border.html
Always picks the right side Libya Syria etc0 -
That's obvious. But what would Cooper's response be?Alanbrooke said:Looks like Jezza gets his first foreign policy test.
Who will he back North or South Korea ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3204452/North-Korea-shells-South-Korean-military-unit-stationed-countries-shared-border.html0 -
Tea/Coffeewatford30 said:
That's obvious. But what would Cooper's response be?Alanbrooke said:Looks like Jezza gets his first foreign policy test.
Who will he back North or South Korea ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3204452/North-Korea-shells-South-Korean-military-unit-stationed-countries-shared-border.html
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I think you also have to consider that three election cycles under Blair/ Brow exhausted the party philosophically- much like the Tories in the 90's after 4 cycles.
A party needs to rejuvenate to get that hunger back- this takes time, and mistakes. Without the mistakes you lose the discipline, ideas and thirst to get back into power. Apart from the polls, did anyone actually believe that the Labour party led by Ed Miliband deserved to get back in? It would have been a travesty if Ed had won; a lazy Labour party that was just basically gambling on a 35% strategy. What would it have said about UK politics is Ed had won. He was deservedly beaten and the Tories deserved their majority.
I'm pretty OK about Corbyn becoming leader, and folk like SouthernObserver should just chill and wait and stay loyal to the cause. Corbyn will crash and burn for sure- but at the other end lies a Labour party that'll be fit for purpose. 2020 might still be too soon.CD13 said:Mr Observer,
Well argued.
"I would vote for a moderate social democratic party:"
I would and have done many times. The tacit agreement has been breached, though. The one that says the hard left in their many manifestations should talk loudly but have no say in policy - full of sound and fury and signifying nothing. They should continue to be that embarrassing uncle at the wedding who occasionally drinks a lot and makes a fool of himself - but he is family.
Tony was a bit too glib though so I went to the LDs until the last election. Ed ...????
Tories were always the opposition not the enemies.
I still believe Labour will come to their senses. They let Mrs Rochester take over for a while and then the unions decided on gormless Ed.
Now they're peeking into Pandora's box. Leave that lid alone!0 -
If someone told you that the Tories were about to elect a supporter of a Holocaust denier, hugged terrorists as a hobby, was still a member of the Monday Club, divorced their wife for not sending their kid to public school and called similar far-rightists *friends* - you'd probably think they were exaggerating - and you'd be right.Plato said:What I'm finding REALLY hard to get my head around is the horror that sensible Labourites must be experiencing.
If someone told me that the Tories were about to elect a supporter of a Holocaust denier, hugged terrorists as a hobby, was still a member of the Monday Club, divorced their wife for not sending their kid to public school and called similar far-rightists *friends* = I'd be APPALLED.
It's only by putting it in those terms that I can even begin to understand what Labour are doing. And I still can't believe it's happening.antifrank said:The revelations have come too late. The bulk of Jeremy Corbyn's supporters are still in full-on denial mode, claiming that meeting Holocaust-deniers and blood-libellers is a routine occurrence for MPs looking for peace in the Middle East, that disavowing their views would be undiplomatic and that anyone could have senior moments about who they'd met and spoken with and procured visas for.
Another week or two of such revelations and they will be awkwardly shuffling away from him. But their votes wil already have been cast.0 -
Mr. Tyson, 'deserved' is an odd choice of word.
Many thought Miliband could get in, perhaps propped up by the SNP.0 -
I find myself torn. I'm a longstanding Tory member and activist, and a former Conservative Council Leader. I'm also a registered supporter of the Labour Party, and my ballot paper has arrived.
There was a time that voting for Jeremy Corbyn was funny; it doesn't seem so funny anymore. I'm seeking PB's advice on a genuine ethical question. Should I:
a) Vote Corbyn - to hell with them
b) Not vote - it's their handcart they can do what they like with it
c) Vote Kendall 1 Cooper 2, because Kendall would do least damage to the country and Cooper is the only grown up in the race?0
