Undefined discussion subject.

NickPalmer said:

People are in the mood for a different approach and I think Tories are gloating too soon

If enough are sensible they should be ok - I think it notable Mr Herdson recognises that Corbyn could cause Cameron problems simply by virtue of being different to what he isused to - but it's too early to say if in general the Tories will get complacent. The more certain they think a victory is, the greater the chance they will make a mistake.

Plato said:

I'm looking forward to Mr Corbyn wearing a tie. I haven't seen him in one yet.

Charles said:

kle4 said:

SouthamObserver said:

We have a series of treats to look forward to and which Corbynites such as Nick Palmer can enjoy as their unspun, straight-talking hero triumphs:
The first Andrew Neil interview.
The first PMQ
The first Conference speech as leader
The first Remembrance Sunday
The first Budget response
The 100 year anniversary of the Easter Rising
And so on.

It should be invigorating stuff as The British public learns more about the man the Labour party believes should be the next Prime Minister.

I can see him doing ok on about half of those.

Daily Mail headline on the day after Remembrance Sunday:

Big photo of Corbyn looking solemn. Screaming headline "HYPOCRITE!". A few choice quotes from Corbyn's past down the side of the page.

What are the odds?

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/ill-wear-a-tie-when-you-wrap-it-around-my-cold-dead-neck-says-corbyn-20150814101106

Pauly said:

OT: I've made it onto a course for Mathematics and Computer Science (MSci) at Birmingham University. Despite obviously disliking the tuition fees I recognise their necessity and am grateful to the Tories for lifting the student number cap.
If Labour get back into power in 2020 (in some crazy parallel universe) I'll be burdened with higher taxes and will still have the student debt burden. Worst of both worlds.
Student debt made me into a conservative.

Congratulations!

GIN1138 said:

kle4 said:

NickPalmer said:

People are in the mood for a different approach and I think Tories are gloating too soon

If enough are sensible they should be ok - I think it notable Mr Herdson recognises that Corbyn could cause Cameron problems simply by virtue of being different to what he isused to - but it's too early to say if in general the Tories will get complacent. The more certain they think a victory is, the greater the chance they will make a mistake.

If millions of voters in marginal seat's across England refused to vote for Ed Miliband they are not going to vote for Jeremy Corbyn in a million years.

What's far more likely is that millions of Labour voters who stuck with Labour despite Ed Miliband will conclude they are being taken for fools by the Labour Party and abandon the party leading to the kind of collapse across England and Wales that we saw in Scotland.

Labour is playing a very, very dangerous game with the voters and frankly I think the party has literally lost the plot (Dr Palmer included I'm afraid to say)

It's going to be tremendously fun to watch though.

Plus I think parliament would have been very dull with Yvette or Andy in as LOTO for the next 5 years.

The plots and scheming going on behind Jezza's back with a PLP and membership at war with one another will require bundles of popcorn.

Recidivist said:

Charles said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

Excellent piece Mr herdson.

Corbyn will fall apart soon after winning because his lala land brand of politics never has and never will stand up to scrutiny, it's nothing to do with smearing. Equality and freedom are incompatible, the socialist desire for equality (however they wish to define it) can only be at the expense of freedom and we value that above all else.

It's odd that he's got to his age without that dawning on him, we all gravitate to where we're comfortable, I suspect that as a veggie teetotal he spends the majority of his time with likeminded people. There's clearly plenty like him within labour happy to have him as labour but the country at large won't accept it. Regardless of what you think of the new labour sycophants, they know it too.

"Equality and freedom are incompatible"

That sounds like rubbish to me. Care to explain?

It's a logical construct: if you desire absolute equality of outcome, then you can only do so by controlling outcomes and hence restricting the freedom to select other outcomes.

It's why Conservatives are so keen on equality of opportunity rather than outcome: the most talented should be able to succeed without any artificial boundaries (race, sex, etc) being put in their way; this is why access to education is so critical.

Of course, in theory, any action to narrow inequality (I'm thinking of redistributive tax policies, for instance) is a restriction of freedom, but most of us live in the real world rather than being Paulistas and accept that there is a trade off between unadulterated freedom and a stable and harmonious society

If Conservatives are in favour of equality of opportunity shouldn't they be in favour of high death duties? Also shouldn't they be opposed to private education? Come to that shouldn't they support free tertiary education? In fact, to ensure equality of opportunity would require quite extensive state intervention. That doesn't sound at all like the kinds of the policies advocate or implement.

I can't speak for Conservatives, but:

High death duties upend the relationship between the state and the individual. Property belongs to the individual, not to the state: it's already been taxed and income generated from it is taxed again

Private education, in an ideal world, would not need to exist (although there will almost be a demand for a small part of it - Eton for example). But I'd rather see state education improved to such a level that there is no demand for private education

Tertiary education should be paid for - it is an investment by an individual in themselves. But there should be extensive scholarships so that the most talented can always afford it

MarkHopkins said:

Charles said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

Oh, I don't mind shooting bankers.

Surely that's a waste of bullets?

At least with a knife you get to recycle it.

No, you need to use a stake - make sure they don't rise again.



Although I'd imagine that @innocent_abroad would rather like getting his hands dirty.

Mr. Oliver, rig?

Cameron won a leadership contest based on a vote of the membership, then won two elections. That's democracy.

Morris_Dancer said:

Miss Plato/Mr. Gin, on the other hand, I know a sensible chap from Scotland who posted elsewhere that he was voting for Corbyn because he was anti-nuclear, and this chap wants to be able to vote for a socialist who's against Trident whilst still being a unionist.

Of course, Scotland's different to the rest of the UK. Fighting the SNP for the mantle of socialism is a different bag of monkeys to battling the Conservatives for high office.

I suppose the only good thing you can say about Corbyn is that he might win some seats back for Labour in Scotland... But I suspect that gain will easily be off-set by the collapse that could take place across England and Wales.

kle4 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

foxinsoxuk said:

rottenborough said:

Pulpstar said:

SouthamObserver said:

...

It should be invigorating stuff as The British public learns more about the man the Labour party believes should be the next Prime Minister.

Tbh I can't see what all the fuss was about with Foot's jacket. Indeed the Queen mother noted it was a sensible enough coat...

Corbyn OTOH is likely to be wearing a white poppy as he is a pacifist :P

The Foot story is a myth. It was a proper coat, not a donkey jacket.

I don't think that Corbyn will be as bad at these things as many people might think. He seems a remarkable calm person who will take these duties seriously.

He has worn a white (peace pledge union) poppy as well as a red one on previous remembrance commemorations. Not unreasonable in my view. The PPU explains and sells its white poppies here:

http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/

You think a pacifist organisation trying to hijack the Royal British Legion's poppy memorial to push a political agenda is not unreasonable?

The traditional poppy isn't about militarism or pacifism it is about both remembering those who lost their lives in war and aiding those who've served (or their families) are are affected by it.

That's the way I see it as well. The problem with the white poppy is, some of those who wear it, for the reason they claim, are implicitly criticising those who don't, as though the red poppy is glorifying war or militarism. Maybe it did once, IDK, but it certainly doesn't now, so another type seems unnecessary as I certainly remember those military and civilian who lost their lives and hope to see similar loss avoided, unless one is making a political statement as intentionally or not they are saying those who wear the red one are not thinking those things.
But I'll save that pet peeve for later in the year.

The red poppy was never about glorifying war. When the first memorials were built and the poppy appeal started in the early 20's memories were very clear about where and why the poppies grew so thickly.
The left need their faux white poppy of appeasement and surrender to justify their bitter and twisted view of the world.

The right believes that needs to be "equality of opportunity" to the extent that the state should not do anything about it and inequality will magically fix itself.

So, essentially, they don't really believe in "equality of opportunity" in way that's remotely meaningful.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Oliver, rig?

Cameron won a leadership contest based on a vote of the membership, then won two elections. That's democracy.

The Conservative leadership election process is rigged to ensure the members get little real say or choice between candidates, with the MPs pretty much making all the decisions based on backdoor conversations. Labour need to do the same.

If Labour used the Conservative's leadership election process then it would be a two-way vote between Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper.

Oliver_PB said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Oliver, rig?

Cameron won a leadership contest based on a vote of the membership, then won two elections. That's democracy.

The Conservative leadership election process is rigged to ensure the members get little real say or choice between candidates. Labour needs to do the same.

They did - that was the point of the 35MP nomination limit, to ensure any leadership candidate presented to the party was acceptable and backed by sufficient levels of parliamentary support. They just then ignored that, as they decided (or some decided) that a broad debate was more important than screening the candidates to put to the membership.

GIN1138 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Miss Plato/Mr. Gin, on the other hand, I know a sensible chap from Scotland who posted elsewhere that he was voting for Corbyn because he was anti-nuclear, and this chap wants to be able to vote for a socialist who's against Trident whilst still being a unionist.

Of course, Scotland's different to the rest of the UK. Fighting the SNP for the mantle of socialism is a different bag of monkeys to battling the Conservatives for high office.

I suppose the only good thing you can say about Corbyn is that he might win some seats back for Labour in Scotland... But I suspect that gain will easily be off-set by the collapse that could take place across England and Wales.

Many people in England won't vote Labour because of the threat that they will have to form a coalition with SNP.

By Corbyn winning back Scotland from the SNP he would also win back those voters in England who were no longer worried about the SNP coalition.

David_Evershed said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Pauly said:

OT: I've made it onto a course for Mathematics and Computer Science (MSci) at Birmingham University. Despite obviously disliking the tuition fees I recognise their necessity and am grateful to the Tories for lifting the student number cap.
If Labour get back into power in 2020 (in some crazy parallel universe) I'll be burdened with higher taxes and will still have the student debt burden. Worst of both worlds.
Student debt made me into a conservative.

Jezza has promised to end tuition fees and wipeout existing student debt. You may want to reconsider your vote!

If you work abroad you don't repay any tuition fees.
So doctors with five years worth of tuition fees are heavily incentivised to move abroad eg Australia and avoid repaying the fees.

Oh really?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/9287346/Student-loan-could-land-you-in-court-if-you-move-overseas.html
''Moving overseas to escape student debt might seem like a sure-fire way to avoid repayments but borrowers could be landed with fines, or even court proceedings, if they don’t keep in touch with the Student Loans Company.
There’s a common misconception among borrowers that quitting Britain will put an end to loan repayments but buried in the terms and conditions of the loan agreement are overseas repayment schedules. In some cases living abroad can even increase what you pay.''

David_Evershed said:

GIN1138 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Miss Plato/Mr. Gin, on the other hand, I know a sensible chap from Scotland who posted elsewhere that he was voting for Corbyn because he was anti-nuclear, and this chap wants to be able to vote for a socialist who's against Trident whilst still being a unionist.

Of course, Scotland's different to the rest of the UK. Fighting the SNP for the mantle of socialism is a different bag of monkeys to battling the Conservatives for high office.

I suppose the only good thing you can say about Corbyn is that he might win some seats back for Labour in Scotland... But I suspect that gain will easily be off-set by the collapse that could take place across England and Wales.

Many people in England won't vote Labour because of the threat that they will have to form a coalition with SNP.

By Corbyn winning back Scotland from the SNP he would also win back those voters in England who were no longer worried about the SNP coalition.

It's unlikely he'll win enough seats from the SNP to take a Lab/SNP pact of the table, especially given the number of seat's Labour also has to win in England to form a majority.

I can't actually believe we're sitting here seriously talking about Jeremy Corbyn being a serious politician/prospect for government.

It's insane. Madness.

Morris_Dancer said:

Miss Plato/Mr. Gin, on the other hand, I know a sensible chap from Scotland who posted elsewhere that he was voting for Corbyn because he was anti-nuclear, and this chap wants to be able to vote for a socialist who's against Trident whilst still being a unionist.

Of course, Scotland's different to the rest of the UK. Fighting the SNP for the mantle of socialism is a different bag of monkeys to battling the Conservatives for high office.

Er! Mr Dancer, there are many people in Scotland who can remember the Tories here fighting like a load of ferrets in a sack. Which is probably the main reason why they have become virtually extinct as a species around here.

Forsyth and his cronies agin Lang, Rifkind et al the members of the Edinburgh Club. Not an edifying site. I can still remember seeing Rifkind walking away from his constituency office during the "troubles" and he definitely was not a happy bunny.

David_Evershed said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Pauly said:

OT: I've made it onto a course for Mathematics and Computer Science (MSci) at Birmingham University. Despite obviously disliking the tuition fees I recognise their necessity and am grateful to the Tories for lifting the student number cap.
If Labour get back into power in 2020 (in some crazy parallel universe) I'll be burdened with higher taxes and will still have the student debt burden. Worst of both worlds.
Student debt made me into a conservative.

Jezza has promised to end tuition fees and wipeout existing student debt. You may want to reconsider your vote!

If you work abroad you don't repay any tuition fees.

So doctors with five years worth of tuition fees are heavily incentivised to move abroad eg Australia and avoid repaying the fees.

From my own experience, I can say this is definitely not the case.

kle4 said:

Oliver_PB said:

kle4 said:

Oliver_PB said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Oliver, rig?

Cameron won a leadership contest based on a vote of the membership, then won two elections. That's democracy.

The Conservative leadership election process is rigged to ensure the members get little real say or choice between candidates. Labour needs to do the same.

They did - that was the point of the 35MP nomination limit, to ensure any leadership candidate presented to the party was acceptable and backed by sufficient levels of parliamentary support. They just then ignored that, as they decided (or some decided) that a broad debate was more important than screening the candidates to put to the membership.

Not to anywhere near the same degree. 15% of MPs isn't that much.

Granted, but it seems sufficient to week out any members of the awkward squad. Corbyn wasn't getting anywhere near that without being nominated by people who don't support him, and Abbott did even worse, and only got to the level by being explicitly gifted nominations purely on the basis of her gender. The Tory method of only 2 nominations but then voted upon by the MPs to whittle them down to the final 2 candidates in theory allows crazy people to put themselves forward very easily, but I suppose in practice it would be not worth the trouble since you know you won't get to the final 2, or even close to it, if you are a member of the awkward squad.

IDS, John Redwood?

Luckyguy1983 said:

Financier said:

@Plato: just for you - your hearthrob in a tie.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3158969/Divorced-row-grammar-schools-Labour-s-left-wing-dark-horse-Jeremy-Corbyn-tied-knot-wife-number-three-secret-wedding-Mexico.html

Wow, he punches well above his weight in every case!

''When a notebook was mislaid by a member of the Whips' Office in 2002, Mr Corbyn was reportedly seen to have been described in it as 'Jeremy Cor Bin-Laden'. Thats a labour whips note book! Everything about Corbyn stinks. What a shambles Labour is...

I am amazed at how some in the Labour party are trying to put a brave face on Corbyn being Leader. Some are clearly delusional. But, it all looks good for the right leaning folk when Labour people are in such a state. Be it despair or blind optimism.

GIN1138 said:

David_Evershed said:

GIN1138 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Miss Plato/Mr. Gin, on the other hand, I know a sensible chap from Scotland who posted elsewhere that he was voting for Corbyn because he was anti-nuclear, and this chap wants to be able to vote for a socialist who's against Trident whilst still being a unionist.

Of course, Scotland's different to the rest of the UK. Fighting the SNP for the mantle of socialism is a different bag of monkeys to battling the Conservatives for high office.

I suppose the only good thing you can say about Corbyn is that he might win some seats back for Labour in Scotland... But I suspect that gain will easily be off-set by the collapse that could take place across England and Wales.

Many people in England won't vote Labour because of the threat that they will have to form a coalition with SNP.

By Corbyn winning back Scotland from the SNP he would also win back those voters in England who were no longer worried about the SNP coalition.

It's unlikely he'll win enough seats from the SNP to take a Lab/SNP pact of the table, especially given the number of seat's Labour also has to win in England to form a majority.

I can't actually believe we're sitting here seriously talking about Jeremy Corbyn being a serious politician/prospect for government.

It's insane. Madness.

Being willing to go into coalition with SNP would actually increase the likelihood of the SNP maintaining their seats. And if as seems likely to me Labour put up a swathe of loopy lefty candidates in Scotland, prompted by Trade Union backing probably, then really it would not matter much who wins what seat as far as centre leaning voters in England are concerned.

GIN1138 said:

NickPalmer said:

My reservations about Corbyn still exist even though I'll vote for him.

Nick, Sorry but I've got ask;

Have you gone mad?

The answer to your question is possibly yes.

There is a bit in "Cabin In The Woods" where they pump stupid gas into the cabin to make the teenagers split up and go to different parts of the house, despite the fact that it is a conspicuously stupid thing to do. This act of self-immolation by Labour can be interpreted as a sacrifice to the Great Old Ones of Socialism.

If you want to know what people are really like, watch them when faced with a choice when all the options are unacceptable. Labour are in this unenviable position and are not entirely rational at the moment.

JosiasJessop said:

Charles said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

Excellent piece Mr herdson.

Corbyn will fall apart soon after winning because his lala land brand of politics never has and never will stand up to scrutiny, it's nothing to do with smearing. Equality and freedom are incompatible, the socialist desire for equality (however they wish to define it) can only be at the expense of freedom and we value that above all else.

It's odd that he's got to his age without that dawning on him, we all gravitate to where we're comfortable, I suspect that as a veggie teetotal he spends the majority of his time with likeminded people. There's clearly plenty like him within labour happy to have him as labour but the country at large won't accept it. Regardless of what you think of the new labour sycophants, they know it too.

"Equality and freedom are incompatible"

That sounds like rubbish to me. Care to explain?

Yep, the only way to achieve equality is by curtailing the freedom of individuals. You might want everybody to live in a 3 bedroom house, but to do that you have to stop people living in 4 bedroom houses.

If you cannot see the myriad flaws in your 'argument' then there's little hope for you.

Well I'm here for a while so I'm happy for you to enlighten me, I don't even mind if you continue to patronise me.

Sorry about the delay, had to do my bit for equality by feeding my son. During which he discovered how to open the toothpaste tube and spray the contents over the living room carpet ...

If you think that was patronising, you evidently haven't been following PB for long!

Why were you feeding him toothpaste? You sure you got this Dad thing down straight?

A good dad always brushes his son's teeth after a meal. A better dad might not give said son the toothpaste tube to play with ...

One year old in bath. Mother turns back and he injests baby shampoo. Taken to A&E where he has bubbles coming from several orifices..... First of 3 A&E visits in a 12 month period.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Plato said:

This makes Labourite brave faces over Gordon and EdM look almost sincere.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

I am amazed at how some in the Labour party are trying to put a brave face on Corbyn being Leader. Some are clearly delusional. But, it all looks good for the right leaning folk when Labour people are in such a state. Be it despair or blind optimism.

True. A classic example is NickP. Clearly a very intelligent man. But one who has almost no understanding on what a good Leader for his party looks like. Another example is the bigJOwls chap. Apparently held a senior post in the NHS. Yet thought the fact that EdM was regarded as cr*p by most voters would still lead to a Labour Govt. Both of these are happy about a Corbyn term as Leader! Neither chaps are prepared to look at hard reserach into why they lost the GE and the conclusions to be drawn from it. Little point in debating them on it as they seem to be in this blissful space of socialist magic money trees.... Still both of their posts on here are very welcome as I can read and conclude that we have in the Labour party the politically blind led by the politically blind.

You are perfectly right and it is very illuminating to see how delusional people can be.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Plato said:

This makes Labourite brave faces over Gordon and EdM look almost sincere.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

I am amazed at how some in the Labour party are trying to put a brave face on Corbyn being Leader. Some are clearly delusional. But, it all looks good for the right leaning folk when Labour people are in such a state. Be it despair or blind optimism.

True. A classic example is NickP. Clearly a very intelligent man. But one who has almost no understanding on what a good Leader for his party looks like. Another example is the bigJOwls chap. Apparently held a senior post in the NHS. Yet thought the fact that EdM was regarded as cr*p by most voters would still lead to a Labour Govt. Both of these are happy about a Corbyn term as Leader! Neither chaps are prepared to look at hard research into why they lost the GE and the conclusions to be drawn from it. Little point in debating them on it as they seem to be in this blissful space of socialist magic money trees.... Still both of their posts on here are very welcome as I can read and conclude that we have in the Labour party the politically blind led by the politically blind.

Yes do not put them off posting, as this site would become conservative home, it is nearly that now.

kle4 said:

Plato said:

These are very funny - tweets from Corbynites calling everyone else a TORY!!! http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/the-worst-four-letter-word?utm_term=.jfq8Ma9JR

Hilarious stuff. Those people are genuinely mad. Tory just means bad to them, which is an ok position to hold I guess, but they don't seem to realise that does not mean bad must also just equalTory. How do they reconcile everyone not ideologically pure being Tory with complaints only 27 %, or whatever, voted for the government?

I did like this one ..... For shear dumbfuckery

@jimwaterson COOPER,KENDALL,BURNHAM,SHOULD DO THE HONEST THING,AND F-CK OFF TO THERE --"NAZI"--TORY MATES,LIKE PRESS/MEDIA -PEOPLE HATERS,

Complete misunderstanding of the National Socialism stance of the Nazi's.

flightpath01 said:

''When a notebook was mislaid by a member of the Whips' Office in 2002, Mr Corbyn was reportedly seen to have been described in it as 'Jeremy Cor Bin-Laden'. Thats a labour whips note book! Everything about Corbyn stinks. What a shambles Labour is...

When you have to resort to quoting an alleged note by an anonymous whip 13 years ago, don't you think you're getting a bit desperate? It makes my chat about what individual members said to me last week look like scientific opinion polling. :-)

calum said:

HYUFD said:

calum said:

HYUFD said:

JPJ2 said:

Fitalass

"He may well have finally put the brakes on the SNP juggernaut up here in Scotland, he is certainly drowning out the usually North Korean style SNP PR machine in the local news with some positive media attention of his own"

Fitalass wrong again. I know that is not news :-)

Assuming a Corbyn victory, his opposition to any meaningful further devolution will render a surge in Scotland pretty much dead on arrival.

Even if he were popular in Scotland, the political incompetence of both of the SLAB leadership contenders in condemning him before he became hot favourite will be used widely by the "SNP PR machine".

Further, as Corbyn has indicated that he would be kind enough to accept SNP support to put Labour in power, why would anyone bother to switch from SNP to Labour at GE 2020?

Only yesterday C4 news interviewed several young Scots who said they may switch from SNP to a Corbyn led Labour Party

Before Corbyn could take the fight to the SNP he first has to deal with SLAB - which lives in a perpetual state of civil war. Worth remembering that John McT who seems to have appointed himself as Witchfinder General on matters ABC is still SLAB's Chief off Staff - I think John McT and Blair McD would go as far as barricading themselves into SLAB's office in Glasgow to keep Corbyn out !!

If Corbyn becomes leader with membership backing they are irrelevant, in Glasgow yesterday a big turnout for his rally

As Corbyn is anti home rule and not a big fan of further devolution - as well as having no control over SLAB's candidate selection process etc - I can't immediately see why he'll revive SLAB's fortunes.

Because he would make Labour into an anti austerity movement and the place that would play best in is Scotland

Financier said:

It is very difficult to imagine any of this gang of four having the statesmanship or 'stateswomanship' to negotiate with Merkel et al, and that lack of capability includes Farron.

Why do we have so few people of that vital quality in politics today? Is it lack of quality education, family background or just lacking leadership qualities (or perhaps that experience from youth).

So just what exactly has Cameron successfully negotiated? I'm getting tired of making a good speech sans notes and looking serious and producing a good sound-bite when something awful has happened being used as measure of a good Prime Minister. They are not. It's good when you get someone like Thatcher with both bearing and substance, but in the absence of the former I'd much rather have the latter.

HurstLlama said:

Pulpstar said:

GIN1138 said:

kle4 said:

NickPalmer said:

People are in the mood for a different approach and I think Tories are gloating too soon

If enough are sensible they should be ok - I think it notable Mr Herdson recognises that Corbyn could cause Cameron problems simply by virtue of being different to what he isused to - but it's too early to say if in general the Tories will get complacent. The more certain they think a victory is, the greater the chance they will make a mistake.

If millions of voters in marginal seat's across England refused to vote for Ed Miliband they are not going to vote for Jeremy Corbyn in a million years.

What's far more likely is that millions of Labour voters who stuck with Labour despite Ed Miliband will conclude they are being taken for fools by the Labour Party and abandon the party leading to the kind of collapse across England and Wales that we saw in Scotland.

Labour is playing a very, very dangerous game with the voters and frankly I think the party has literally lost the plot (Dr Palmer included I'm afraid to say)

It's going to be tremendously fun to watch though.

Plus I think parliament would have been very dull with Yvette or Andy in as LOTO for the next 5 years.

The plots and scheming going on behind Jezza's back with a PLP and membership at war with one another will require bundles of popcorn.

As Mr. Yeodethur is not here Mr. Flaming Picky will have to do duty as PB's pendant for the time being, and he says:

You cannot bundle popcorn. The essence of a bundle is that it a collection of things that are tied or wrapped together. One cannot, at least in any meaningful sense, tie bits of popcorn together.

You've not made a popcorn necklace before??

edit: I see Miss @Plato beat me to it. And with an wiki link and everything!

notme said:

Plato said:

He suggested he was a concentration camp guard... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4746016.stm

London's mayor has been suspended from office on full pay for four weeks for comparing a Jewish journalist to a concentration camp guard.

The Adjudication Panel for England ruled Ken Livingstone had brought his office into disrepute when he acted in an "unnecessarily insensitive" manner.

The ban is due to begin on 1 March and the mayor's deputy Nicky Gavron will stand in for Mr Livingstone.

The mayor said: "This decision strikes at the heart of democracy."

He added: "Elected politicians should only be able to be removed by the voters or for breaking the law.

Charles said:

Yorkcity said:

Ken Livingstone was vilified by the MSM as SO is doing now.
Blair tried everything possible to stop him having the chance to become London Mayor.

I at the time thought Ken Livingstone would not be a good choice.
However he did some good things for London between 2000 to2008.
I was wrong and I could be about Corbyn .
These are difficult times to predict.

Although towards the end his true character reasserted itself

Didn't he tell a British-born, but Jewish photographer for the Evening Standard to "F**k off back to Israel!" or something?

Ken will be pleased with the changes brought about by Eric Pickles. Now only a court of law can remove you from office following a conviction of the necessary severity that disqualifies you from holding the office.
I agree with that too, I don't want some bureaucratic body deciding who I can vote for.

HYUFD said:

calum said:

HYUFD said:

calum said:

HYUFD said:

JPJ2 said:

Fitalass

"He may well have finally put the brakes on the SNP juggernaut up here in Scotland, he is certainly drowning out the usually North Korean style SNP PR machine in the local news with some positive media attention of his own"

Fitalass wrong again. I know that is not news :-)

Assuming a Corbyn victory, his opposition to any meaningful further devolution will render a surge in Scotland pretty much dead on arrival.

Even if he were popular in Scotland, the political incompetence of both of the SLAB leadership contenders in condemning him before he became hot favourite will be used widely by the "SNP PR machine".

Further, as Corbyn has indicated that he would be kind enough to accept SNP support to put Labour in power, why would anyone bother to switch from SNP to Labour at GE 2020?

Only yesterday C4 news interviewed several young Scots who said they may switch from SNP to a Corbyn led Labour Party

Before Corbyn could take the fight to the SNP he first has to deal with SLAB - which lives in a perpetual state of civil war. Worth remembering that John McT who seems to have appointed himself as Witchfinder General on matters ABC is still SLAB's Chief off Staff - I think John McT and Blair McD would go as far as barricading themselves into SLAB's office in Glasgow to keep Corbyn out !!

If Corbyn becomes leader with membership backing they are irrelevant, in Glasgow yesterday a big turnout for his rally

As Corbyn is anti home rule and not a big fan of further devolution - as well as having no control over SLAB's candidate selection process etc - I can't immediately see why he'll revive SLAB's fortunes.

Because he would make Labour into an anti austerity movement and the place that would play best in is Scotland

And its the trade unions who will control candidate selection

Financier said:

It is very difficult to imagine any of this gang of four having the statesmanship or 'stateswomanship' to negotiate with Merkel et al, and that lack of capability includes Farron.

Why do we have so few people of that vital quality in politics today? Is it lack of quality education, family background or just lacking leadership qualities (or perhaps that experience from youth).

A very good question, Mr. Financier, and not one to which there is a simple or single answer. Mr. Charles posted a view on this the other day and as he is about he might like to give us his view again.

My own view as regards national politics is that the career path of Researcher -> SpaD -> Safe Seat -> Minister has become too prevalent and has lead to too many people at the top who have too little experience but are of the same mindset (regardless of party). That is to say they have not far progressed beyond the Student Union stage of politics.and will only, as far as it is possible, promote people in their own image. We are in the age of the professional politician but with a system designed for gentlefolk amateurs.

NickPalmer said:

flightpath01 said:

''When a notebook was mislaid by a member of the Whips' Office in 2002, Mr Corbyn was reportedly seen to have been described in it as 'Jeremy Cor Bin-Laden'. Thats a labour whips note book! Everything about Corbyn stinks. What a shambles Labour is...

When you have to resort to quoting an alleged note by an anonymous whip 13 years ago, don't you think you're getting a bit desperate? It makes my chat about what individual members said to me last week look like scientific opinion polling. :-)

Stay in your dreamworld. You have just demonstrated how unfit you are for any office. Ideal Corby-fodder if you ask me. Make sure you send an appropriate letter of congratulation when he wins.

flightpath01 said:

HYUFD said:

calum said:

HYUFD said:

calum said:

HYUFD said:

JPJ2 said:

Fitalass

"He may well have finally put the brakes on the SNP juggernaut up here in Scotland, he is certainly drowning out the usually North Korean style SNP PR machine in the local news with some positive media attention of his own"

Fitalass wrong again. I know that is not news :-)

Assuming a Corbyn victory, his opposition to any meaningful further devolution will render a surge in Scotland pretty much dead on arrival.

Even if he were popular in Scotland, the political incompetence of both of the SLAB leadership contenders in condemning him before he became hot favourite will be used widely by the "SNP PR machine".

Further, as Corbyn has indicated that he would be kind enough to accept SNP support to put Labour in power, why would anyone bother to switch from SNP to Labour at GE 2020?

Only yesterday C4 news interviewed several young Scots who said they may switch from SNP to a Corbyn led Labour Party

Before Corbyn could take the fight to the SNP he first has to deal with SLAB - which lives in a perpetual state of civil war. Worth remembering that John McT who seems to have appointed himself as Witchfinder General on matters ABC is still SLAB's Chief off Staff - I think John McT and Blair McD would go as far as barricading themselves into SLAB's office in Glasgow to keep Corbyn out !!

If Corbyn becomes leader with membership backing they are irrelevant, in Glasgow yesterday a big turnout for his rally

As Corbyn is anti home rule and not a big fan of further devolution - as well as having no control over SLAB's candidate selection process etc - I can't immediately see why he'll revive SLAB's fortunes.

Because he would make Labour into an anti austerity movement and the place that would play best in is Scotland

And its the trade unions who will control candidate selection

And? Unions are more popular in Scotland than England

notme said:

YBarddCwsc said:

NickPalmer said:

flightpath01 said:

''When a notebook was mislaid by a member of the Whips' Office in 2002, Mr Corbyn was reportedly seen to have been described in it as 'Jeremy Cor Bin-Laden'. Thats a labour whips note book! Everything about Corbyn stinks. What a shambles Labour is...

When you have to resort to quoting an alleged note by an anonymous whip 13 years ago, don't you think you're getting a bit desperate? It makes my chat about what individual members said to me last week look like scientific opinion polling. :-)

I certainly agree with Nick that the smearing of Corbyn, both by Tories and by the Labour Right, has been disgraceful.

As far as I can see, Corbyn has behaved gracefully under very unreasonable attacks. I certainly admire him for that.

I think it is worthwhile Labour learning the lessons of 2015, but on one thing Corbyn is surely right. The increasing inequality of the UK, and increasing reluctance of the very rich and of big companies to pay tax, is one of the most important issues facing the UK. That has a real resonance with the public, and it is not being articulated elsewhere.

If Corbyn is leader, and he manages to divert the energies of a united Labour Party into tackling this issue, then I see no reason why he might not win in 2020. 2020 will not be a re-run of 2015. Different issues will be important, and we will have had 10 years of cutbacks.

And a completely unpredictable Euro referendum.

Inequality isnt rising though, homelessness is at one of its lowest for thirty years, as is child poverty (quite dramatically on a couple of measure), both relative and absolute, as is unemployment, as is inflation. There are problems, as there always is, but under the coalition and now the Tories, the country isnt going to hell in a handcart.

Oh all of this. The inequality one most of all.

Just because some discredited chap with a beard says it, does not make it true.

HYUFD said:

calum said:

HYUFD said:

calum said:

HYUFD said:

JPJ2 said:

Fitalass

"He may well have finally put the brakes on the SNP juggernaut up here in Scotland, he is certainly drowning out the usually North Korean style SNP PR machine in the local news with some positive media attention of his own"

Fitalass wrong again. I know that is not news :-)

Assuming a Corbyn victory, his opposition to any meaningful further devolution will render a surge in Scotland pretty much dead on arrival.

Even if he were popular in Scotland, the political incompetence of both of the SLAB leadership contenders in condemning him before he became hot favourite will be used widely by the "SNP PR machine".

Further, as Corbyn has indicated that he would be kind enough to accept SNP support to put Labour in power, why would anyone bother to switch from SNP to Labour at GE 2020?

Only yesterday C4 news interviewed several young Scots who said they may switch from SNP to a Corbyn led Labour Party

Before Corbyn could take the fight to the SNP he first has to deal with SLAB - which lives in a perpetual state of civil war. Worth remembering that John McT who seems to have appointed himself as Witchfinder General on matters ABC is still SLAB's Chief off Staff - I think John McT and Blair McD would go as far as barricading themselves into SLAB's office in Glasgow to keep Corbyn out !!

If Corbyn becomes leader with membership backing they are irrelevant, in Glasgow yesterday a big turnout for his rally

As Corbyn is anti home rule and not a big fan of further devolution - as well as having no control over SLAB's candidate selection process etc - I can't immediately see why he'll revive SLAB's fortunes.

Because he would make Labour into an anti austerity movement and the place that would play best in is Scotland

The SNP are already are anti austerity movement who also favour independence when the time is right. Why then vote for a party which is anti austerity and anti independence/devolution - when UK Labour has been infected with SLABitis.

justin124 said:

But there have been times when our Armed Forces have been used as instruments of evil. When that has happened - Iraq in 2003 for example - human decency would have been best served by their being defeated.

That's a keeper !

I hesitate to bring AGW into this but don't mention Jezza's view here. It's fine to have an opinion but he will be dogmatic about it.

I worry about people who say that “the science is settled.” They are always proved wrong.
Lord Kelvin, President of the Royal Society from 1890 to 1895 declared that “There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement."

A few years later, a revolution occurred with the discovery of relativity and quantum theory.
Sometimes it’s the problem of correlation and causation. More recently, who can forget the fat is bad hypothesis? Cholesterol is bad, therefore eggs are bad. Studies showed a correlation between fat intake and heart disease, between cholesterol level and heart disease. There was definitely a consensus that reducing fat intake was the answer.

But there were facts still be discovered. Some types of lipoproteins are good. And there are different forms of HDL-cholesterol, different forms of LDL-cholesterol and various forms of apolipoproteins. Now carbohydrates are becoming the enemy (especially fructose). Who knows what the future holds? But it shows the problem of relying on surveys that are retrospective.

The gold standard for distinguishing correlation from causation is the double blind study. Follow groups chosen to be similar for all known factors and vary one of them. And don’t tell the participants or directors which is which.

Compared to lipid metabolism, climate change is vastly more complicated. Is carbon dioxide increase a causation or just a vague correlation? We need to divide the earth into two equal portions and increase CO2 in just one while all other factors remain the same - and there are far more factors involved here, some known and some unknown.

There is a scientific consensus but it is always a guess, an educated guess, but a guess.
We should be finding ways to disprove the current hypothesis, not looking for ways to support it. That is real science.

It might be right, but is it worth spending fortunes onjust a good guess? Jezza will.

Do we feel lucky, punk?

I'll get my coat.

calum said:

HYUFD said:

calum said:

HYUFD said:

calum said:

HYUFD said:

JPJ2 said:

Fitalass

"He may well have finally put the brakes on the SNP juggernaut up here in Scotland, he is certainly drowning out the usually North Korean style SNP PR machine in the local news with some positive media attention of his own"

Fitalass wrong again. I know that is not news :-)

Assuming a Corbyn victory, his opposition to any meaningful further devolution will render a surge in Scotland pretty much dead on arrival.

Even if he were popular in Scotland, the political incompetence of both of the SLAB leadership contenders in condemning him before he became hot favourite will be used widely by the "SNP PR machine".

Further, as Corbyn has indicated that he would be kind enough to accept SNP support to put Labour in power, why would anyone bother to switch from SNP to Labour at GE 2020?

Only yesterday C4 news interviewed several young Scots who said they may switch from SNP to a Corbyn led Labour Party

Before Corbyn could take the fight to the SNP he first has to deal with SLAB - which lives in a perpetual state of civil war. Worth remembering that John McT who seems to have appointed himself as Witchfinder General on matters ABC is still SLAB's Chief off Staff - I think John McT and Blair McD would go as far as barricading themselves into SLAB's office in Glasgow to keep Corbyn out !!

If Corbyn becomes leader with membership backing they are irrelevant, in Glasgow yesterday a big turnout for his rally

As Corbyn is anti home rule and not a big fan of further devolution - as well as having no control over SLAB's candidate selection process etc - I can't immediately see why he'll revive SLAB's fortunes.

Because he would make Labour into an anti austerity movement and the place that would play best in is Scotland

The SNP are already are anti austerity movement who also favour independence when the time is right. Why then vote for a party which is anti austerity and anti independence/devolution - when UK Labour has been infected with SLABitis.

The SNP advocate anti-austerity as a political platform, but not something they actually put into practice given the opportunity. Similar in some respects to how "austerity" is a political platform for the Conservatives, but the reality doesn't quite match the rhetoric.