politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Harriet Harman’s comments today have been interpreted as op
Comments
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How will this go down with Middle England?
"Mr Corbyn is an ardent republican, who once petitioned Tony Blair to evict the Royal Family from Buckingham Palace and move them into ‘more modest’ accommodation."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3158146/Labour-panic-surge-support-left-winger-Jeremy-Corbyn-leader-consign-party-oblivion.html#ixzz3fhYfUs2c
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This - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11734627/France-is-the-sick-man-of-Europe-says-former-French-prime-minister-Francois-Fillon.html - may explain why, if reports are to be believed, France is helping Greece.0
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Harman is the democratically elected deputy leader with the remit to be stand in leader while elections take place. The will be just like Tom Watson on the afternoon of May 8 2020 after Burnham quits following another disastrous result for the party.HYUFD said:
"There is no official party policy at the moment as Harman is the acting leader, not the elected leader, that will have to wait until September
Being deputy leader is not the same as being leader. She should only be holding the fort not setting policy. Only the next leader who has a mandate from the membership has the power to set policy. Burnham has the highest net favourables of any contendor, including Kendall
So Labour can have no policy with regard to the budget as Harman is only acting leader. Sounds like a plan. Not!
Certainly not without full shadow cabinet discussion and the agreement of all the leadership candidates, Harman announced this policy without fully consulting the shadow cabinet first
Now why she should do that? Probably one of two reasons. She realises that at the moment she can in some small way influence policy and raise the points that Labour need to accept to achieve any hope of power.
She also knows that when she is not deputy the ones that take over wont agree and will oppose. The one taking over will not be Kendal and finally Ms Harman has accepted she is unlikely to make the cut.
Maybe, but that makes it all rather pointless to set policy which lasts 5 minutes. In any case while she could have agreed to back the overall benefit cap, which at least Kendall, Burnham and Cooper support, by agreeing to back some of the details like child tax credit cuts she went way beyond what could be agreed on
I said influence, not set. Considerable difference.
However to have influence she needed to persuade all the contendors and bring them on board
No. You are confusing the influence of power rather than the power of influence."
Well in that case she better use it while she has the chance
QED0 -
Labour seem intent on spending at least the next 10 years in the wilderness - Kevin McKenna adds to their woes:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/12/budget-george-osborne-poverty-royal-family-decoy
Kezia Dugdale is stressing SLAB's independence:
https://twitter.com/kdugdalemsp/status/6202854189620756480 -
"There is no official party policy at the moment as Harman is the acting leader, not the elected leader, that will have to wait until September
Harman is the democratically elected deputy leader with the remit to be stand in leader while elections take place. The will be just like Tom Watson on the afternoon of May 8 2020 after Burnham quits following another disastrous result for the party.
Being deputy leader is not the same as being leader. She should only be holding the fort not setting policy. Only the next leader who has a mandate from the membership has the power to set policy. Burnham has the highest net favourables of any contendor, including Kendall
So Labour can have no policy with regard to the budget as Harman is only acting leader. Sounds like a plan. Not!
Certainly not without full shadow cabinet discussion and the agreement of all the leadership candidates, Harman announced this policy without fully consulting the shadow cabinet first
Now why she should do that? Probably one of two reasons. She realises that at the moment she can in some small way influence policy and raise the points that Labour need to accept to achieve any hope of power.
She also knows that when she is not deputy the ones that take over wont agree and will oppose. The one taking over will not be Kendal and finally Ms Harman has accepted she is unlikely to make the cut.
Maybe, but that makes it all rather pointless to set policy which lasts 5 minutes. In any case while she could have agreed to back the overall benefit cap, which at least Kendall, Burnham and Cooper support, by agreeing to back some of the details like child tax credit cuts she went way beyond what could be agreed on
I said influence, not set. Considerable difference.
However to have influence she needed to persuade all the contendors and bring them on board
Yes perhaps, I think though she is giving the ants nest a very small poke with a very long stick."
Whether that has a positive or negative impact we shall see0 -
Oops, Charles!Charles said:
You're getting over excited again, young SunilSunil_Prasannan said:
With My Tits In The Air!frpenkridge said:
I'm more curious about ROFLLMFAOWMTITA. (Well the WMTITA bit actually).HYUFD said:
Highly Youthful Unionist Free Democrat!Sunil_Prasannan said:HYUFD - what does the acronym HYUFD stand for? Just curious!
It's "With My Trotters In The Air"
(Seth was fond of pigs, especially @Mick_Pork)
Does that count as a Freudian slip?
: 0 -
My view on GO remains unchanged, I just wish he'd go and let somebody with a reform agenda get on with it.HurstLlama said:
Not so bad, Mr. B., not so bad at all and thanks for asking. I have not been around on here due to other projects but a dinner with young Morris Dancer last week gave me a nudge in the correct direction.Alanbrooke said:
Ha young Llama, haven't seen you around for a while, how are things in deepest Sussex ?HurstLlama said:
One would have thought that the extreme left view was tested to destruction by about 1989. However, in a system of universal franchise those promising unicorns, free owls for all and a pony for every little girl (all paid for by someone else) will not lack an audience.Moses_ said:
Yes indeed..... All the same, it might be worth it so that this extreme left view is tested to utter destruction once and for all. The rest of us can then get on with our lives in peace.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Moses, better to have a competent opposition that can hold the government to account.
It could be serious for Labour. They've had two abysmal leaders in a row. Three seems like a stretch too far.
I hope all is well with you and yours up there in the Midlands. I trust you still think Osborne is a w@nker - his latest budget certainly didn't inspire me with confidence that he was anything other than a political c..t.
I've been very busy myself over the last 6 weeks as I had a problem in one of the factories and had to reset people's expectations of what performance means. Hopefully though I'm through that and can take a breather.
Otherwise life on PB is a bit strange atm. Most of the lefties are still trying o figure what went wrong and appear to have diappeared for a bit. The Nats are still in cloud cuckoo land and have now moved from the economics of the madhouse to Luis Bunuel does Finance.
Currently the only rolling debates are between the partisan Tories and the rest of the righties.Which is sort of like a family row at Christmas.0 -
When the IMP move in they want to see the books and ensure their mandate is followed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. Exactly what the EU wants to do to any country that defies it. Regime change.Sandpit said:
That sounds awfully like "Ignore the will of the Greek people, replace their elected representatives with unelected EU functionaries"Morris_Dancer said:Just seen point 11 on the 12 point list on the BBC livefeed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33497309
"De-politicise the Greek administration" sounds rather ominous.
I find it staggering that anyone can still defend the EU as being in any way democratic.
The Greeks went back to Brussels yesterday with a plan that France helped to draft and which almost everyone yesterday was saying would be enough. The Germans and the EU have decided that economic reform is not enough and they want to humiliate the Greeks and remove any politicians who disagree with them.
This particular Greek govt is not to be trusted. Would you trust it?
The Germans are not on their own (I suppose it comes easy for you to pick on them as a surrogate), its more likely that France with its minime Luxembourg which are in the minority.
A few days agon the kipperati were saying there would be a fudge and the can kicked down the road. When in fact there clearly becomes a sticking point and some demands for no equivocation - the kipperati still complain.
The Greek govt is clearly not to be trusted and will in all probability break any word it gives. This is a significant problem for the Eurozone - but its an even bigger one for the Greeks.0 -
She is shall we say very muscular... Could be weights though?FalseFlag said:
Does Serena get a pass because she is black? Probably.matt said:
Any evidence other than a chippy ex-cyclist who's desperate to spread the sh*t around? The stench still travels with cycling and I can't see it ever going.FalseFlag said:Watching Serena Williams it really is a priority that tennis introduce a proper drug testing regime.
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/paul-kimmage-25-year-anti-doping-crusade-exposing-lance-armstrong-disillusion-tour
“Possibly, and this may sound ridiculous, cycling is one of the cleanest sports left because the controls are full on. But f***ing tennis, I find it nauseating to watch it on TV to see the McEnroes and all the commentators engage in this big love-in. And the bottom line is we are all getting rich here folks, lets not upset the apple-cart.”
Or is it just that Serena isn't white which bothers you?
If Shaparova showed up with arms like that I am sure there would be speculation.
http://essentiallysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Serena-Williams-img16902_668.jpg0 -
And you think it's fine to go for THE INDIVIDUAL ANCHORMEN/WOMEN because of problems with the editorial line?Richard_Tyndall said:
Absolutely right they should be investigated. The media watchdog in Greece reported that ahead of the referendum last week the main Greek TV channels showed a total of 47 minutes of coverage of the Yes campaign and only 8 minutes of coverage of the No campaign on the evening before the vote.EPG said:
Here is an example that is inconvenient for the local Europhobes, who have adopted Tsipras as their little pet in the anti-Europe, pro-Putin club:foxinsoxuk said:
Or does it mean de-politicise the civil service? That would seem very reasonable.Morris_Dancer said:Just seen point 11 on the 12 point list on the BBC livefeed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33497309
"De-politicise the Greek administration" sounds rather ominous.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/greek-debt-crisis-journalists-who-criticised-syriza-investigated-by-government-agencies-20150709-gi84l1
If that had been coverage in the UK of a major political vote then Ofcom would have been all over the TV channels in exactly the same way.
Can anti-Europeans do nothing wrong? (Invade Ukraine, perhaps?)0 -
Greece - Isn't the issue this....not many people really want Greece to stay in the Euro...
I doubt Tspiras does (Varoufakis certainly doesn't) he doesn't want to go down in history as taking Greece out of the Eurozone...he wants to be a martyr who tried his best but was forced out by the nasty Germans...
Germany definitely don't want a deal - but want somebody else, preferably the Greeks, to pull the trigger...let talks drag on until banks collapse?
Finland no, probably Spanish & Lisbon governments would prefer grexit to contain domestic default lobby on their left...
Who actually wants to keep Greece inside? Obama with limited leverage and the French I suppose...
Don't most of the key players want Grexit, just not the blame for triggering it? Let talks drag on until events take a decision out of everybody's hands so nobody can be blamed?0 -
Ukip for unconditional debt forgiveness for Communists and appeasement and peace in our time for Orthodox Nationalists.Flightpathl said:
When the IMP move in they want to see the books and ensure their mandate is followed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. Exactly what the EU wants to do to any country that defies it. Regime change.Sandpit said:
That sounds awfully like "Ignore the will of the Greek people, replace their elected representatives with unelected EU functionaries"Morris_Dancer said:Just seen point 11 on the 12 point list on the BBC livefeed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33497309
"De-politicise the Greek administration" sounds rather ominous.
I find it staggering that anyone can still defend the EU as being in any way democratic.
The Greeks went back to Brussels yesterday with a plan that France helped to draft and which almost everyone yesterday was saying would be enough. The Germans and the EU have decided that economic reform is not enough and they want to humiliate the Greeks and remove any politicians who disagree with them.
This particular Greek govt is not to be trusted. Would you trust it?
The Germans are not on their own (I suppose it comes easy for you to pick on them as a surrogate), its more likely that France with its minime Luxembourg which are in the minority.
A few days agon the kipperati were saying there would be a fudge and the can kicked down the road. When in fact there clearly becomes a sticking point and some demands for no equivocation - the kipperati still complain.
The Greek govt is clearly not to be trusted and will in all probability break any word it gives. This is a significant problem for the Eurozone - but its an even bigger one for the Greeks.0 -
Why?SeanT said:The online readership stats for the Guardian and the Mail are almost meaningless. They count every visitor (to the free websites): so an online reader could be - and generally is - someone who clicks on a single article, pays no money to do so, then browses somewhere else.
The Guardian is full of clickbaity articles designed to snare these readers, in the desperate hope they will stay and read something else, too. Most often, the readers don't.
The Mail's Sideboob of Shame does exactly the same job.
All that is very different to someone who hands over cash, for a hard copy of a newspaper, or someone who ponies up for access to a paywalled news-site like the Times.
The relative influence and importance of newspapers must be measured through this prism.
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EPG said:
And you think it's fine to go for THE INDIVIDUAL ANCHORMEN/WOMEN because of problems with the editorial line?Richard_Tyndall said:
Absolutely right they should be investigated. The media watchdog in Greece reported that ahead of the referendum last week the main Greek TV channels showed a total of 47 minutes of coverage of the Yes campaign and only 8 minutes of coverage of the No campaign on the evening before the vote.EPG said:
Here is an example that is inconvenient for the local Europhobes, who have adopted Tsipras as their little pet in the anti-Europe, pro-Putin club:foxinsoxuk said:
Or does it mean de-politicise the civil service? That would seem very reasonable.Morris_Dancer said:Just seen point 11 on the 12 point list on the BBC livefeed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33497309
"De-politicise the Greek administration" sounds rather ominous.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/greek-debt-crisis-journalists-who-criticised-syriza-investigated-by-government-agencies-20150709-gi84l1
If that had been coverage in the UK of a major political vote then Ofcom would have been all over the TV channels in exactly the same way.
Can anti-Europeans do nothing wrong? (Invade Ukraine, perhaps?)
Stop with the straw man bollocks.I am no supporter of Putin so conflating the two arguments just shows you to be a fuckwit who is uninterested in the real arguments.
If the TV channels are showing clear bias and breaking the codes then they need investigating. Of course I know you Eurofanatics hate the idea of anyone trying to make things fair and democratic when it comes to the EU but you are just going to have to accept at some point that blind support for the EU by biased and powerful institutions is not acceptable in a democracy.0 -
Mr. 72, welcome to pb.com.0
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You may mock, but I know exactly what he was saying.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Speedy, but when he's admiring the correctly proportioned trees, does he feel respect?
The quote was, I think, something like "I love it here. I grew up here. It just feels right. Even the trees feel right."
Can you rationalise why you feel at home in Yorkshire?0 -
Welcome to PBbazzer72 said:Greece - Isn't the issue this....not many people really want Greece to stay in the Euro...
I doubt Tspiras does (Varoufakis certainly doesn't) he doesn't want to go down in history as taking Greece out of the Eurozone...he wants to be a martyr who tried his best but was forced out by the nasty Germans...
Germany definitely don't want a deal - but want somebody else, preferably the Greeks, to pull the trigger...let talks drag on until banks collapse?
Finland no, probably Spanish & Lisbon governments would prefer grexit to contain domestic default lobby on their left...
Who actually wants to keep Greece inside? Obama with limited leverage and the French I suppose...
Don't most of the key players want Grexit, just not the blame for triggering it? Let talks drag on until events take a decision out of everybody's hands so nobody can be blamed?
Could be just this but the Germans could probably afford for the Greeks to leave I am not so sure the French can afford that?
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Mr. T, my French is rubbish.
Is it: for the third time in history, a German government is [something meaning 'going to bugger up'] Europe?0 -
The Serena Williams debate on this site is tragic.0
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In 2011, Serena Williams locked herself in her Los Angeles home’s panic room when she thought an intruder was lurking outside. It was a drug tester; ITF data shows Williams didn’t take an OC test at all in 2010 or 2011.Moses_ said:
She is shall we say very muscular... Could be weights though?FalseFlag said:
Does Serena get a pass because she is black? Probably.matt said:
Any evidence other than a chippy ex-cyclist who's desperate to spread the sh*t around? The stench still travels with cycling and I can't see it ever going.FalseFlag said:Watching Serena Williams it really is a priority that tennis introduce a proper drug testing regime.
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/paul-kimmage-25-year-anti-doping-crusade-exposing-lance-armstrong-disillusion-tour
“Possibly, and this may sound ridiculous, cycling is one of the cleanest sports left because the controls are full on. But f***ing tennis, I find it nauseating to watch it on TV to see the McEnroes and all the commentators engage in this big love-in. And the bottom line is we are all getting rich here folks, lets not upset the apple-cart.”
Or is it just that Serena isn't white which bothers you?
If Shaparova showed up with arms like that I am sure there would be speculation.
http://essentiallysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Serena-Williams-img16902_668.jpg
In 2012, Djokovic, Murray, and Federer each had around seven in-competition tests and up to three OC tests—it’s unclear whether these were urine or blood tests.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/08/tennis-has-a-doping-problem.html
That seems an incredibly low number of tests for the worlds top players. Anybody who is familiar with tennis will know the player that the big finger of suspicion is continually pointed at.0 -
Mr. Charles, I'm amused by the clunkiness of the language, not the sentiment of somewhere feeling like home.0
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Yep, there we go. Eurofanatics supporting the removal of democratically elected governments. Why am I not surprised. As has been apparent so often before your view of democracy is clearly that it is a useful tool to be discarded when it goes against the wishes of the EU.Flightpathl said:
When the IMP move in they want to see the books and ensure their mandate is followed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. Exactly what the EU wants to do to any country that defies it. Regime change.Sandpit said:
That sounds awfully like "Ignore the will of the Greek people, replace their elected representatives with unelected EU functionaries"Morris_Dancer said:Just seen point 11 on the 12 point list on the BBC livefeed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33497309
"De-politicise the Greek administration" sounds rather ominous.
I find it staggering that anyone can still defend the EU as being in any way democratic.
The Greeks went back to Brussels yesterday with a plan that France helped to draft and which almost everyone yesterday was saying would be enough. The Germans and the EU have decided that economic reform is not enough and they want to humiliate the Greeks and remove any politicians who disagree with them.
This particular Greek govt is not to be trusted. Would you trust it?
The Germans are not on their own (I suppose it comes easy for you to pick on them as a surrogate), its more likely that France with its minime Luxembourg which are in the minority.
A few days agon the kipperati were saying there would be a fudge and the can kicked down the road. When in fact there clearly becomes a sticking point and some demands for no equivocation - the kipperati still complain.
The Greek govt is clearly not to be trusted and will in all probability break any word it gives. This is a significant problem for the Eurozone - but its an even bigger one for the Greeks.0 -
It's sexist to say that a woman must be on drugs because she has muscles. It's not exceptional. Sam Stosur was just as ripped, if not more.Moses_ said:
She is shall we say very muscular... Could be weights though?FalseFlag said:
Does Serena get a pass because she is black? Probably.matt said:
Any evidence other than a chippy ex-cyclist who's desperate to spread the sh*t around? The stench still travels with cycling and I can't see it ever going.FalseFlag said:Watching Serena Williams it really is a priority that tennis introduce a proper drug testing regime.
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/paul-kimmage-25-year-anti-doping-crusade-exposing-lance-armstrong-disillusion-tour
“Possibly, and this may sound ridiculous, cycling is one of the cleanest sports left because the controls are full on. But f***ing tennis, I find it nauseating to watch it on TV to see the McEnroes and all the commentators engage in this big love-in. And the bottom line is we are all getting rich here folks, lets not upset the apple-cart.”
Or is it just that Serena isn't white which bothers you?
If Shaparova showed up with arms like that I am sure there would be speculation.
http://essentiallysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Serena-Williams-img16902_668.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/20/24DB524200000578-0-Samantha_Stosur_of_Australia_plays_a_backhand_in_her_first_round-a-56_1421729483475.jpg0 -
EPG for German hegemony in Europe. I think that historically that makes you the appeaser.EPG said:
Ukip for unconditional debt forgiveness for Communists and appeasement and peace in our time for Orthodox Nationalists.Flightpathl said:
When the IMP move in they want to see the books and ensure their mandate is followed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. Exactly what the EU wants to do to any country that defies it. Regime change.Sandpit said:
That sounds awfully like "Ignore the will of the Greek people, replace their elected representatives with unelected EU functionaries"Morris_Dancer said:Just seen point 11 on the 12 point list on the BBC livefeed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33497309
"De-politicise the Greek administration" sounds rather ominous.
I find it staggering that anyone can still defend the EU as being in any way democratic.
The Greeks went back to Brussels yesterday with a plan that France helped to draft and which almost everyone yesterday was saying would be enough. The Germans and the EU have decided that economic reform is not enough and they want to humiliate the Greeks and remove any politicians who disagree with them.
This particular Greek govt is not to be trusted. Would you trust it?
The Germans are not on their own (I suppose it comes easy for you to pick on them as a surrogate), its more likely that France with its minime Luxembourg which are in the minority.
A few days agon the kipperati were saying there would be a fudge and the can kicked down the road. When in fact there clearly becomes a sticking point and some demands for no equivocation - the kipperati still complain.
The Greek govt is clearly not to be trusted and will in all probability break any word it gives. This is a significant problem for the Eurozone - but its an even bigger one for the Greeks.0 -
Yes but monthly readership figures are just as bad, they include someone who reads 1 article a month in a paper while eating lunch in the canteenSeanT said:The online readership stats for the Guardian and the Mail are almost meaningless. They count every visitor (to the free websites): so an online reader could be - and generally is - someone who clicks on a single article, pays no money to do so, then browses somewhere else.
The Guardian is full of clickbaity articles designed to snare these readers, in the desperate hope they will stay and read something else, too. Most often, the readers don't.
The Mail's Sideboob of Shame does exactly the same job.
All that is very different to someone who hands over cash, for a hard copy of a newspaper, or someone who ponies up for access to a paywalled news-site like the Times.
The relative influence and importance of newspapers must be measured through this prism.0 -
Yes, I thought all winners of major tournaments had to do drug tests. Do golfers and snooker players have to do them? Lewis Hamilton?The_Apocalypse said:The Serena Williams debate on this site is tragic.
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I have to say I found it amusing that he/she appeared to question the validity of Serena's victories, simply on the basis that her appearance doesn't conform to stereotypical standards of femininity.williamglenn said:
It's sexist to say that a woman must be on drugs because she has muscles. It's not exceptional. Sam Stosur was just as ripped, if not more.Moses_ said:
She is shall we say very muscular... Could be weights though?FalseFlag said:
Does Serena get a pass because she is black? Probably.matt said:
Any evidence other than a chippy ex-cyclist who's desperate to spread the sh*t around? The stench still travels with cycling and I can't see it ever going.FalseFlag said:Watching Serena Williams it really is a priority that tennis introduce a proper drug testing regime.
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/paul-kimmage-25-year-anti-doping-crusade-exposing-lance-armstrong-disillusion-tour
“Possibly, and this may sound ridiculous, cycling is one of the cleanest sports left because the controls are full on. But f***ing tennis, I find it nauseating to watch it on TV to see the McEnroes and all the commentators engage in this big love-in. And the bottom line is we are all getting rich here folks, lets not upset the apple-cart.”
Or is it just that Serena isn't white which bothers you?
If Shaparova showed up with arms like that I am sure there would be speculation.
http://essentiallysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Serena-Williams-img16902_668.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/20/24DB524200000578-0-Samantha_Stosur_of_Australia_plays_a_backhand_in_her_first_round-a-56_1421729483475.jpg
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Mr. Moses, not sure how big an issue drugs or testing are in F1. One thing that could mitigate against their use is that flashes of rage (for example) or even very brief loss of dexterity or other forms of control would lead to almost immediate crashing. F1 cars are very safe these days, but you still don't want to play around with the chance of a 200mph hit.
Also, the cars have lower G forces than in the recent past, so conditioning isn't as difficult as it was.0 -
I have no idea what the situation is for golf, F1, or snooker in terms of tests, and how often these sports require athletes to do tests.Moses_ said:
Yes, I thought all winners of major tournaments had to do drug tests. Do golfers and snooker players have to do them? Lewis Hamilton?The_Apocalypse said:The Serena Williams debate on this site is tragic.
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"en train de détruite" is basically "on course to destroy".Morris_Dancer said:Mr. T, my French is rubbish.
Is it: for the third time in history, a German government is [something meaning 'going to bugger up'] Europe?0 -
Mr. Tyndall, cheers.0
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FT correspondant writes:
https://twitter.com/jsphctrl/status/620294809383739392
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!0 -
No Greek govt will be controlled from Berlin. Greece is heavily indebted and cannot repay. It is therefore faced with the consequences. The institutions that it wants to borrow from would be mad to lend without strings. Greece unlike the UK is not a member of the Euro. Greece has played ducks and drakes with Euro membership and now they have to pay the price.HurstLlama said:
It simply means that Greece will become a colony of Germany, nothing ominous about that. The greeks will be able to elect anyone they like, it just won't matter because the administration will be controlled from Berlin. The Greek people might or might not think that a good idea.Morris_Dancer said:Just seen point 11 on the 12 point list on the BBC livefeed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33497309
"De-politicise the Greek administration" sounds rather ominous.
But the reality is that a single currency will lead to single economic policies and thus single political policies and thus to a de facto single country.
Greek events might give pause to this trend - it remains to be seen. If it does not then irrespective of what we do we will be faced with that single massive continental wide country, for good or ill, on our doorstep.0 -
Golf drug testing is a joke and like tennis they have this code of secrecy. Even if you fail, they don't tell the world.The_Apocalypse said:
I have no idea what the situation is for golf, F1, or snooker in terms of tests, and how often these sports require athletes to do tests.Moses_ said:
Yes, I thought all winners of major tournaments had to do drug tests. Do golfers and snooker players have to do them? Lewis Hamilton?The_Apocalypse said:The Serena Williams debate on this site is tragic.
Nobody knows why Dustin Johnson took a leave of absence for 5 months, and the PGA won't tell anybody if he failed a drugs test. Golf.com claim he has failed drugs tests 3 times, but PGA will neither confirm nor deny this.
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Oh do get over yourself with your sexist claptrap.williamglenn said:
It's sexist to say that a woman must be on drugs because she has muscles. It's not exceptional. Sam Stosur was just as ripped, if not more.Moses_ said:
She is shall we say very muscular... Could be weights though?FalseFlag said:
Does Serena get a pass because she is black? Probably.matt said:
Any evidence other than a chippy ex-cyclist who's desperate to spread the sh*t around? The stench still travels with cycling and I can't see it ever going.FalseFlag said:Watching Serena Williams it really is a priority that tennis introduce a proper drug testing regime.
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/paul-kimmage-25-year-anti-doping-crusade-exposing-lance-armstrong-disillusion-tour
“Possibly, and this may sound ridiculous, cycling is one of the cleanest sports left because the controls are full on. But f***ing tennis, I find it nauseating to watch it on TV to see the McEnroes and all the commentators engage in this big love-in. And the bottom line is we are all getting rich here folks, lets not upset the apple-cart.”
Or is it just that Serena isn't white which bothers you?
If Shaparova showed up with arms like that I am sure there would be speculation.
http://essentiallysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Serena-Williams-img16902_668.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/20/24DB524200000578-0-Samantha_Stosur_of_Australia_plays_a_backhand_in_her_first_round-a-56_1421729483475.jpg
I was merely suggesting it was quite likely it could simply be for alternative reasons.
0 -
The recent spectacle has been appalling. It makes the EU look like some disreputable racket. In our own referendum my vote has switched from likely IN to likely OUT.SeanT said:
I believe so. The knicker wetting of idiot europhiles, as they see their precious Project crumble, is quite the spectacle.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. T, my French is rubbish.
Is it: for the third time in history, a German government is [something meaning 'going to bugger up'] Europe?
0 -
Will the Labour Party have to call in the IMF and meet its conditions?MikeL said:Corbyn now in to 8.8 on Betfair. He has a real chance.
I'm still waiting to hear what will happen if he wins.
Will he put his own supporters in the top Shadow Cabinet positions?
Will Burnham, Cooper, Benn, Umunna, Reeves etc serve in the Shadow Cabinet under him? If so, will they agree to go along with Corbyn type policies?
Will the Labour party split?
This is getting serious - is anyone planning for this?
0 -
As for all the Grexit talk, until I see shops in Greece taking Drachma as a form of payment for goods and services and money being withdrawn from banks in Drachma then it is all talk. The EU has a knack for being able to kick the can down the road at the last minute and we all know it is just about to happen.
Unless the Greek people go out an protest in the millions it will be another capitulation, 6 months of bullshit, more negotiations, another 6 months of bullshit and the Greek economy is still going to be in the shitter.
The only people who can change this are the Greek people, by protesting and voting for a party that has the stated aim of orderly Grexit and debt restructuring. Voting for SYRIZA which proposed this idiotic halfway house of remaining in the Euro but still restructuring the debt and no austerity has arguably made their lot worse. The old programme, flawed as it was, had at least stopped the bleeding towards the end and jobs were beginning to be created and the economy had finally moved into minor positive territory.
The two idiots, Tsipras and Varoufakis, are without doubt the worst peacetime leaders seen in any European country and SYRIZA is a joke.
I'm hardly what anyone could describe as pro-EU, I'm in favour of Brexit. I hope the country will vote "No" whenever we have our referendum, but even I am starting to sympathise with the hated Eurocrats.0 -
Pedant alert. But shouldn't that French quote read ".....est en train de détruire l'Europe" i.e. is in the course of destroying Europe?. "Détruite" is a noun not a verb.SeanT said:Heart of stone. Laughter. Etc
@DenisMacShane 10m10 minutes ago
@BrunoBrussels Jean-Luc Mélanchon - "pour la troisième fois dans l'Histoire, un gouvernement allemand est en train de détruite l'Europe"
0 -
It sounds like the EU wants Greece to implement the equivalent of a decade of Thatcherism in the space of a week.0
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TBF, the amount of money that they are being asked to pony up is quite large.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep, there we go. Eurofanatics supporting the removal of democratically elected governments. Why am I not surprised. As has been apparent so often before your view of democracy is clearly that it is a useful tool to be discarded when it goes against the wishes of the EU.Flightpathl said:
When the IMP move in they want to see the books and ensure their mandate is followed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. Exactly what the EU wants to do to any country that defies it. Regime change.Sandpit said:
That sounds awfully like "Ignore the will of the Greek people, replace their elected representatives with unelected EU functionaries"Morris_Dancer said:Just seen point 11 on the 12 point list on the BBC livefeed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33497309
"De-politicise the Greek administration" sounds rather ominous.
I find it staggering that anyone can still defend the EU as being in any way democratic.
The Greeks went back to Brussels yesterday with a plan that France helped to draft and which almost everyone yesterday was saying would be enough. The Germans and the EU have decided that economic reform is not enough and they want to humiliate the Greeks and remove any politicians who disagree with them.
This particular Greek govt is not to be trusted. Would you trust it?
The Germans are not on their own (I suppose it comes easy for you to pick on them as a surrogate), its more likely that France with its minime Luxembourg which are in the minority.
A few days agon the kipperati were saying there would be a fudge and the can kicked down the road. When in fact there clearly becomes a sticking point and some demands for no equivocation - the kipperati still complain.
The Greek govt is clearly not to be trusted and will in all probability break any word it gives. This is a significant problem for the Eurozone - but its an even bigger one for the Greeks.
It would be more democratic to allow Greece to go their own way, but they are within their rights to attach conditions to the loan.0 -
Mr. C, I'm sure many here will not be impressed by the eurozone's behaviour, but whether that leads to many altering their votes in about two years is open to doubt (of course, if the situation worsens it could have an increased effect).0
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She looks pretty feminine here!The_Apocalypse said:
I have to say I found it amusing that he/she appeared to question the validity of Serena's victories, simply on the basis that her appearance doesn't conform to stereotypical standards of femininity.williamglenn said:
It's sexist to say that a woman must be on drugs because she has muscles. It's not exceptional. Sam Stosur was just as ripped, if not more.Moses_ said:
She is shall we say very muscular... Could be weights though?FalseFlag said:
Does Serena get a pass because she is black? Probably.matt said:
Any evidence other than a chippy ex-cyclist who's desperate to spread the sh*t around? The stench still travels with cycling and I can't see it ever going.FalseFlag said:Watching Serena Williams it really is a priority that tennis introduce a proper drug testing regime.
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/paul-kimmage-25-year-anti-doping-crusade-exposing-lance-armstrong-disillusion-tour
“Possibly, and this may sound ridiculous, cycling is one of the cleanest sports left because the controls are full on. But f***ing tennis, I find it nauseating to watch it on TV to see the McEnroes and all the commentators engage in this big love-in. And the bottom line is we are all getting rich here folks, lets not upset the apple-cart.”
Or is it just that Serena isn't white which bothers you?
If Shaparova showed up with arms like that I am sure there would be speculation.
http://essentiallysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Serena-Williams-img16902_668.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/20/24DB524200000578-0-Samantha_Stosur_of_Australia_plays_a_backhand_in_her_first_round-a-56_1421729483475.jpg
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/6198863700818698240 -
Why ?MaxPB said:As for all the Grexit talk, until I see shops in Greece taking Drachma as a form of payment for goods and services and money being withdrawn from banks in Drachma then it is all talk. The EU has a knack for being able to kick the can down the road at the last minute and we all know it is just about to happen.
Unless the Greek people go out an protest in the millions it will be another capitulation, 6 months of bullshit, more negotiations, another 6 months of bullshit and the Greek economy is still going to be in the shitter.
The only people who can change this are the Greek people, by protesting and voting for a party that has the stated aim of orderly Grexit and debt restructuring. Voting for SYRIZA which proposed this idiotic halfway house of remaining in the Euro but still restructuring the debt and no austerity has arguably made their lot worse. The old programme, flawed as it was, had at least stopped the bleeding towards the end and jobs were beginning to be created and the economy had finally moved into minor positive territory.
The two idiots, Tsipras and Varoufakis, are without doubt the worst peacetime leaders seen in any European country and SYRIZA is a joke.
I'm hardly what anyone could describe as pro-EU, I'm in favour of Brexit. I hope the country will vote "No" whenever we have our referendum, but even I am starting to sympathise with the hated Eurocrats.
The Eurocrats fiddled the numbers to let Greece in in the first place, now that it has all gone tits up they are trying to avoid paying their share of the cost.0 -
If the argument is "but the British did it in the 19th century" then I think this whole continent is doomed.foxinsoxuk said:FT correspondant writes:
https://twitter.com/jsphctrl/status/620294809383739392
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!0 -
Makes sense. I am always amazed after 2 hours they get out and look like they have been on a Sunday drive. I know they do lots of training as Schuemacker did a documentary years ago on this sort of thing.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Moses, not sure how big an issue drugs or testing are in F1. One thing that could mitigate against their use is that flashes of rage (for example) or even very brief loss of dexterity or other forms of control would lead to almost immediate crashing. F1 cars are very safe these days, but you still don't want to play around with the chance of a 200mph hit.
Also, the cars have lower G forces than in the recent past, so conditioning isn't as difficult as it was.
Seems odd though they don't. Athletes are rigidly tested to the point miss too many and you are guilty anyway.The_Apocalypse said:
I have no idea what the situation is for golf, F1, or snooker in terms of tests, and how often these sports require athletes to do tests.Moses_ said:
Yes, I thought all winners of major tournaments had to do drug tests. Do golfers and snooker players have to do them? Lewis Hamilton?The_Apocalypse said:The Serena Williams debate on this site is tragic.
0 -
Mr. Max, the EU/eurozone. Not the continent.0
-
Mr. Moses, it's also the higher fuel load due to lack of refuelling. That means the car's slower earlier on, and thus easier to handle (and they have to manage tyres, fuel consumption and sometimes other issues, so they're often driving within themselves, which has been a cause for some criticism).0
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Look at the Eurozone; they all agree with Germany, more or less. Even the ones who don't want Grexit can't trust Greece.Richard_Tyndall said:
EPG for German hegemony in Europe. I think that historically that makes you the appeaser.EPG said:
Ukip for unconditional debt forgiveness for Communists and appeasement and peace in our time for Orthodox Nationalists.Flightpathl said:
When the IMP move in they want to see the books and ensure their mandate is followed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. Exactly what the EU wants to do to any country that defies it. Regime change.Sandpit said:
That sounds awfully like "Ignore the will of the Greek people, replace their elected representatives with unelected EU functionaries"Morris_Dancer said:Just seen point 11 on the 12 point list on the BBC livefeed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33497309
"De-politicise the Greek administration" sounds rather ominous.
I find it staggering that anyone can still defend the EU as being in any way democratic.
The Greeks went back to Brussels yesterday with a plan that France helped to draft and which almost everyone yesterday was saying would be enough. The Germans and the EU have decided that economic reform is not enough and they want to humiliate the Greeks and remove any politicians who disagree with them.
This particular Greek govt is not to be trusted. Would you trust it?
The Germans are not on their own (I suppose it comes easy for you to pick on them as a surrogate), its more likely that France with its minime Luxembourg which are in the minority.
A few days agon the kipperati were saying there would be a fudge and the can kicked down the road. When in fact there clearly becomes a sticking point and some demands for no equivocation - the kipperati still complain.
The Greek govt is clearly not to be trusted and will in all probability break any word it gives. This is a significant problem for the Eurozone - but its an even bigger one for the Greeks.
Now even the far left has... left Syriza's side for accepting austerity, the only people taking Greece's side are Ukiputinistas and their Continental pals.0 -
I don't disagree with that, it's just that Tsipras is such an idiot that he makes the Eurocrats look positively Churchillian. After the stunning "No" vote he had a mandate for Grexit. He could have gone to the IMF and had them pull the plug for him then also have them clean up the mess. The word is that the IMF have softened their stance on Greek debt restructuring since April and are now in favour. Everyone half expected Tsipras to do it on Monday, but instead he submitted a plan with even more austerity than the one he rejected the week before. Baffling man. Complete tool.Alanbrooke said:
Why ?MaxPB said:As for all the Grexit talk, until I see shops in Greece taking Drachma as a form of payment for goods and services and money being withdrawn from banks in Drachma then it is all talk. The EU has a knack for being able to kick the can down the road at the last minute and we all know it is just about to happen.
Unless the Greek people go out an protest in the millions it will be another capitulation, 6 months of bullshit, more negotiations, another 6 months of bullshit and the Greek economy is still going to be in the shitter.
The only people who can change this are the Greek people, by protesting and voting for a party that has the stated aim of orderly Grexit and debt restructuring. Voting for SYRIZA which proposed this idiotic halfway house of remaining in the Euro but still restructuring the debt and no austerity has arguably made their lot worse. The old programme, flawed as it was, had at least stopped the bleeding towards the end and jobs were beginning to be created and the economy had finally moved into minor positive territory.
The two idiots, Tsipras and Varoufakis, are without doubt the worst peacetime leaders seen in any European country and SYRIZA is a joke.
I'm hardly what anyone could describe as pro-EU, I'm in favour of Brexit. I hope the country will vote "No" whenever we have our referendum, but even I am starting to sympathise with the hated Eurocrats.
The Eurocrats fiddled the numbers to let Greece in in the first place, now that it has all gone tits up they are trying to avoid paying their share of the cost.0 -
There are many sports where the drugs testing programs are a total joke and the governing bodies don't care that much as they just want super human performances to excite the fans and draw in the big crowds.0
-
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.0 -
@AlanBrooke
"... Luis Bunuel does Finance..."
Respect, Mr. Brooke, full respect. I had to look up who Luis Bunuel was, for you to come up with the phrase "Luis Bunuel does finance" is seriously massive face. I am more than impressed. I raise my glass to you*.
*Well it is Sunday and I don't do evensong anymore. When we lived in Worthing our local parish church did a superb BCP sung evensong - full choir and all the trimmings**. It was worth laying off the sauce at lunch just to get the full beauty of it. Very well attended too, but it was Worthing which, as everyone knows, is God's waiting room and so there were a lot of people who did not fancy betting against Pascal's wager.
** When we had a new rector he didn't get the importance of timing. The service started at six OK but he was long with his sermon and didn't get the pace right. As a result there was a lot of shuffling of feet and an air of impatience, even from the choir, was obvious. After about a month someone must have had a word with him because once he had disrobed etc. he appeared in the George, just down the road, where he found all the adult members of the choir plus a very large proportion of his congregation. From then on the service finished at 18:50 prompt and we all made opening*** time at the George.
*** This was before the foul and unnecessary liberalisation of licensing hours was introduced.
0 -
The IMF's position is hilarious.MaxPB said:
I don't disagree with that, it's just that Tsipras is such an idiot that he makes the Eurocrats look positively Churchillian. After the stunning "No" vote he had a mandate for Grexit. He could have gone to the IMF and had them pull the plug for him then also have them clean up the mess. The word is that the IMF have softened their stance on Greek debt restructuring since April and are now in favour. Everyone half expected Tsipras to do it on Monday, but instead he submitted a plan with even more austerity than the one he rejected the week before. Baffling man. Complete tool.Alanbrooke said:
Why ?MaxPB said:As for all the Grexit talk, until I see shops in Greece taking Drachma as a form of payment for goods and services and money being withdrawn from banks in Drachma then it is all talk. The EU has a knack for being able to kick the can down the road at the last minute and we all know it is just about to happen.
Unless the Greek people go out an protest in the millions it will be another capitulation, 6 months of bullshit, more negotiations, another 6 months of bullshit and the Greek economy is still going to be in the shitter.
The only people who can change this are the Greek people, by protesting and voting for a party that has the stated aim of orderly Grexit and debt restructuring. Voting for SYRIZA which proposed this idiotic halfway house of remaining in the Euro but still restructuring the debt and no austerity has arguably made their lot worse. The old programme, flawed as it was, had at least stopped the bleeding towards the end and jobs were beginning to be created and the economy had finally moved into minor positive territory.
The two idiots, Tsipras and Varoufakis, are without doubt the worst peacetime leaders seen in any European country and SYRIZA is a joke.
I'm hardly what anyone could describe as pro-EU, I'm in favour of Brexit. I hope the country will vote "No" whenever we have our referendum, but even I am starting to sympathise with the hated Eurocrats.
The Eurocrats fiddled the numbers to let Greece in in the first place, now that it has all gone tits up they are trying to avoid paying their share of the cost.
"Greek absolutely needs debt restructuring". But "The IMF can't do any Greek debt restructuring". Amazing. Somebody else should lose lots of money on their share of the debt, so we get back more of our share of the debt.0 -
Rightwilliamglenn said:
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.
like the economy has now shrunk by 50% instead of just 25% ?0 -
It's funny how Syriza can do no wrong on here as long as they are not popular with other European institutions, while in the UK Andy Burnham gets castigated for being an unacceptably far-left socialist.Alanbrooke said:
Rightwilliamglenn said:
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.
like the economy has now shrunk by 50% instead of just 25% ?0 -
Wasting your breath, most people are happy to assume that no positives means no problem. Hence sports with laughable testing and everyone can happily look down their nose at the dirty cyclists while enjoying 5 hour tennis matches and 9.6 second 100m races.FrancisUrquhart said:There are many sports where the drugs testing programs are a total joke and the governing bodies don't care that much as they just want super human performances to excite the fans and draw in the big crowds.
0 -
I loved the way J.K Rowling OWNED that guy!foxinsoxuk said:
She looks pretty feminine here!The_Apocalypse said:
I have to say I found it amusing that he/she appeared to question the validity of Serena's victories, simply on the basis that her appearance doesn't conform to stereotypical standards of femininity.williamglenn said:
It's sexist to say that a woman must be on drugs because she has muscles. It's not exceptional. Sam Stosur was just as ripped, if not more.Moses_ said:
She is shall we say very muscular... Could be weights though?FalseFlag said:
Does Serena get a pass because she is black? Probably.matt said:
Any evidence other than a chippy ex-cyclist who's desperate to spread the sh*t around? The stench still travels with cycling and I can't see it ever going.FalseFlag said:Watching Serena Williams it really is a priority that tennis introduce a proper drug testing regime.
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/paul-kimmage-25-year-anti-doping-crusade-exposing-lance-armstrong-disillusion-tour
“Possibly, and this may sound ridiculous, cycling is one of the cleanest sports left because the controls are full on. But f***ing tennis, I find it nauseating to watch it on TV to see the McEnroes and all the commentators engage in this big love-in. And the bottom line is we are all getting rich here folks, lets not upset the apple-cart.”
Or is it just that Serena isn't white which bothers you?
If Shaparova showed up with arms like that I am sure there would be speculation.
http://essentiallysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Serena-Williams-img16902_668.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/20/24DB524200000578-0-Samantha_Stosur_of_Australia_plays_a_backhand_in_her_first_round-a-56_1421729483475.jpg
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/6198863700818698240 -
It's the clunkiness that makes me feel it is real rather than a soundbiteMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Charles, I'm amused by the clunkiness of the language, not the sentiment of somewhere feeling like home.
0 -
You forgot to mention Putin.EPG said:
It's funny how Syriza can do no wrong on here as long as they are not popular with other European institutions, while in the UK Andy Burnham gets castigated for being an unacceptably far-left socialist.Alanbrooke said:
Rightwilliamglenn said:
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.
like the economy has now shrunk by 50% instead of just 25% ?0 -
The IMF won't restructure Greek debt until Greece comes out of the currency union. Just like they wouldn't have stepped in to restructure the debt of California when it was looking like they were about to go bankrupt. It is an EMU problem and must be solved within the EMU. If Greece exits the EMU I have no doubt the IMF will step in, facilitate a debt restructuring and bailout.EPG said:The IMF's position is hilarious.
"Greek absolutely needs debt restructuring". But "The IMF can't do any Greek debt restructuring". Amazing. Somebody else should lose lots of money on their share of the debt, so we get back more of our share of the debt.
0 -
If they don't trust the Greek Government then they have to make their decision accordingly. What they should not do is try and get that Government removed and try and crush any opposition to the deal in Greece - I note they are also calling for a 'rigorous review of union activity' in Greece as well.Charles said:
TBF, the amount of money that they are being asked to pony up is quite large.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep, there we go. Eurofanatics supporting the removal of democratically elected governments. Why am I not surprised. As has been apparent so often before your view of democracy is clearly that it is a useful tool to be discarded when it goes against the wishes of the EU.Flightpathl said:
When the IMP move in they want to see the books and ensure their mandate is followed.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. Exactly what the EU wants to do to any country that defies it. Regime change.Sandpit said:
That sounds awfully like "Ignore the will of the Greek people, replace their elected representatives with unelected EU functionaries"Morris_Dancer said:Just seen point 11 on the 12 point list on the BBC livefeed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-33497309
"De-politicise the Greek administration" sounds rather ominous.
I find it staggering that anyone can still defend the EU as being in any way democratic.
The Greeks went back to Brussels yesterday with a plan that France helped to draft and which almost everyone yesterday was saying would be enough. The Germans and the EU have decided that economic reform is not enough and they want to humiliate the Greeks and remove any politicians who disagree with them.
This particular Greek govt is not to be trusted. Would you trust it?
The Germans are not on their own (I suppose it comes easy for you to pick on them as a surrogate), its more likely that France with its minime Luxembourg which are in the minority.
A few days agon the kipperati were saying there would be a fudge and the can kicked down the road. When in fact there clearly becomes a sticking point and some demands for no equivocation - the kipperati still complain.
The Greek govt is clearly not to be trusted and will in all probability break any word it gives. This is a significant problem for the Eurozone - but its an even bigger one for the Greeks.
It would be more democratic to allow Greece to go their own way, but they are within their rights to attach conditions to the loan.
0 -
Mr. Charles, perhaps.0
-
Racing drivers are tested and have been known to be banned for stimulants (and for cannabis in one case!). The FIA do out-of-competition testing too according to WADA rules but it's nowhere near as tough as Athletics for example.Moses_ said:
Makes sense. I am always amazed after 2 hours they get out and look like they have been on a Sunday drive. I know they do lots of training as Schuemacker did a documentary years ago on this sort of thing.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Moses, not sure how big an issue drugs or testing are in F1. One thing that could mitigate against their use is that flashes of rage (for example) or even very brief loss of dexterity or other forms of control would lead to almost immediate crashing. F1 cars are very safe these days, but you still don't want to play around with the chance of a 200mph hit.
Also, the cars have lower G forces than in the recent past, so conditioning isn't as difficult as it was.
Seems odd though they don't. Athletes are rigidly tested to the point miss too many and you are guilty anyway.The_Apocalypse said:
I have no idea what the situation is for golf, F1, or snooker in terms of tests, and how often these sports require athletes to do tests.Moses_ said:
Yes, I thought all winners of major tournaments had to do drug tests. Do golfers and snooker players have to do them? Lewis Hamilton?The_Apocalypse said:The Serena Williams debate on this site is tragic.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/motorsport/8390177/Drug-testers-raid-Formula-One-drivers
F1 drivers now are fitter than they've ever been, and the cars are physically easier to drive than they used to be since they banned refuelling and reduced cornering speeds by restricting downforce.0 -
I think most people looked at that picture and thought the opposite.The_Apocalypse said:
I loved the way J.K Rowling OWNED that guy!foxinsoxuk said:
She looks pretty feminine here!The_Apocalypse said:
I have to say I found it amusing that he/she appeared to question the validity of Serena's victories, simply on the basis that her appearance doesn't conform to stereotypical standards of femininity.williamglenn said:
It's sexist to say that a woman must be on drugs because she has muscles. It's not exceptional. Sam Stosur was just as ripped, if not more.Moses_ said:
She is shall we say very muscular... Could be weights though?FalseFlag said:
Does Serena get a pass because she is black? Probably.matt said:
Any evidence other than a chippy ex-cyclist who's desperate to spread the sh*t around? The stench still travels with cycling and I can't see it ever going.FalseFlag said:Watching Serena Williams it really is a priority that tennis introduce a proper drug testing regime.
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/sport/paul-kimmage-25-year-anti-doping-crusade-exposing-lance-armstrong-disillusion-tour
“Possibly, and this may sound ridiculous, cycling is one of the cleanest sports left because the controls are full on. But f***ing tennis, I find it nauseating to watch it on TV to see the McEnroes and all the commentators engage in this big love-in. And the bottom line is we are all getting rich here folks, lets not upset the apple-cart.”
Or is it just that Serena isn't white which bothers you?
If Shaparova showed up with arms like that I am sure there would be speculation.
http://essentiallysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Serena-Williams-img16902_668.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/20/24DB524200000578-0-Samantha_Stosur_of_Australia_plays_a_backhand_in_her_first_round-a-56_1421729483475.jpg
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/6198863700818698240 -
Just pointing out that in or out of the EU Greeces sovereignty was from the beginning compromised by overseas financial institutions. Nothing new under the sun.MaxPB said:
If the argument is "but the British did it in the 19th century" then I think this whole continent is doomed.foxinsoxuk said:FT correspondant writes:
https://twitter.com/jsphctrl/status/620294809383739392
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!0 -
I'm not sure we should be making a comparison between gunboat diplomacy by the Empire and anything we have today, that we can speaks volumes.foxinsoxuk said:
Just pointing out that in or out of the EU Greeces sovereignty was from the beginning compromised by overseas financial institutions. Nothing new under the sun.MaxPB said:
If the argument is "but the British did it in the 19th century" then I think this whole continent is doomed.foxinsoxuk said:FT correspondant writes:
https://twitter.com/jsphctrl/status/620294809383739392
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!0 -
The IMF already provided loans. It is very much an IMF problem if Greece won't pay! In fact, it already is, given that Greece has already defaulted on the IMF, and not the Europeans...MaxPB said:
The IMF won't restructure Greek debt until Greece comes out of the currency union. Just like they wouldn't have stepped in to restructure the debt of California when it was looking like they were about to go bankrupt. It is an EMU problem and must be solved within the EMU. If Greece exits the EMU I have no doubt the IMF will step in, facilitate a debt restructuring and bailout.EPG said:The IMF's position is hilarious.
"Greek absolutely needs debt restructuring". But "The IMF can't do any Greek debt restructuring". Amazing. Somebody else should lose lots of money on their share of the debt, so we get back more of our share of the debt.0 -
I would hope that the quality of debate on PB would rise above looking at women in evening dresses in order to assess if they might be doping or how masculine / feminine they look.0
-
Greece is perfectly sovereign.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure we should be making a comparison between gunboat diplomacy by the Empire and anything we have today, that we can speaks volumes.foxinsoxuk said:
Just pointing out that in or out of the EU Greeces sovereignty was from the beginning compromised by overseas financial institutions. Nothing new under the sun.MaxPB said:
If the argument is "but the British did it in the 19th century" then I think this whole continent is doomed.foxinsoxuk said:FT correspondant writes:
https://twitter.com/jsphctrl/status/620294809383739392
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!
The problem is they want to keep the euro. An awkward fact for many here, but that is the crux, they like it.0 -
@SeanT
@FalseFlag
Wow, certain people are showing their colours. I'm sure most people aren't obsessed with Serena Williams' appearance; and nor would use it to devalue her achievements. It is rather sad, that some here are attempting to do that; and says more about them, then it says about her.
0 -
The IMF's own latest report states clearly that the Greeks are not able to repay the loans without debt relief and - more importantly - they would never have been able to no matter who was in power. This is also the line by the former head of the IMF's bailout authority who has said that the IMF and the EU have completely failed to deal properly with the Greek problems because they refused to consider meaningful debt relief - the 2011 debt relief was only of private debt which basically helped to protect EU banks.EPG said:
The IMF already provided loans. It is very much an IMF problem if Greece won't pay! In fact, it already is, given that Greece has already defaulted on the IMF, and not the Europeans...MaxPB said:
The IMF won't restructure Greek debt until Greece comes out of the currency union. Just like they wouldn't have stepped in to restructure the debt of California when it was looking like they were about to go bankrupt. It is an EMU problem and must be solved within the EMU. If Greece exits the EMU I have no doubt the IMF will step in, facilitate a debt restructuring and bailout.EPG said:The IMF's position is hilarious.
"Greek absolutely needs debt restructuring". But "The IMF can't do any Greek debt restructuring". Amazing. Somebody else should lose lots of money on their share of the debt, so we get back more of our share of the debt.
0 -
Off-topic: I know some on here were passionate about this topic:
Rules restricting the number of books a prisoner can have have been overturned by Justice Secretary Michael Gove.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-334975810 -
About bloody time. It was a stupid and counter productive idea in the first place.JosiasJessop said:Off-topic: I know some on here were passionate about this topic:
Rules restricting the number of books a prisoner can have have been overturned by Justice Secretary Michael Gove.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-334975810 -
Well, I think quite a lot of people would hope that - certainly it wasn't what I expected from this site, either. I think it speaks to a wider problem that some in our society have with women - only being able to value them for their looks, as opposed to their achievements.FrancisUrquhart said:I would hope that the quality of debate on PB would rise above looking at women in evening dresses in order to assess if they might be doping or how masculine / feminine they look.
0 -
Completely offtopic, Raheem Sterling sold to Man City by Liverpool for 49m
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/11734789/Raheem-Sterling-sold-by-Liverpool-to-Manchester-City-for-49m.html0 -
I am glad refuelling is coming back that will make it much more interesting.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Moses, it's also the higher fuel load due to lack of refuelling. That means the car's slower earlier on, and thus easier to handle (and they have to manage tyres, fuel consumption and sometimes other issues, so they're often driving within themselves, which has been a cause for some criticism).
The main problem is trust. It really matters not what legislation is passed by the Greeks no one gives a shit anymore least of all the Germans. its a matter of will those they then approach accept their assurances. Germany are naturally nervous and have serious reservations.they are probably right because to think that the Greeks will change is very optimistic at best. The Greek people have to change and they won't or can't it's not in their nature or ethos.williamglenn said:
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.
As for the EU it will trundle on, somewhat damaged and continue to impart its will by non democratic methods and ignore the will of the people ....as they always do and have always done.
0 -
Nope. More straw man bollocks from you again. You are really going for it tonight.EPG said:
It's funny how Syriza can do no wrong on here as long as they are not popular with other European institutions, while in the UK Andy Burnham gets castigated for being an unacceptably far-left socialist.Alanbrooke said:
Rightwilliamglenn said:
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.
like the economy has now shrunk by 50% instead of just 25% ?
Personally I would never vote for or support Syriza. But the Greeks did and as such they are the legitimate government of Greece. And given that they inherited a completely destroyed economy when they came to power a few months ago I hardly think you can blame them for all the country's woes. Unless of course you think that this crisis suddenly appeared out of no where when Syriza came to power and the previous right of centre government had nothing to do with it.0 -
No country within the Eurozone is sovereign. That is the problem.EPG said:
Greece is perfectly sovereign.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure we should be making a comparison between gunboat diplomacy by the Empire and anything we have today, that we can speaks volumes.foxinsoxuk said:
Just pointing out that in or out of the EU Greeces sovereignty was from the beginning compromised by overseas financial institutions. Nothing new under the sun.MaxPB said:
If the argument is "but the British did it in the 19th century" then I think this whole continent is doomed.foxinsoxuk said:FT correspondant writes:
https://twitter.com/jsphctrl/status/620294809383739392
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!
The problem is they want to keep the euro. An awkward fact for many here, but that is the crux, they like it.
0 -
Yes He's a lunatic I agree and he is leading his people to complete disaster and the idiots cannot see that is going to happen. They follow blindly hoping that this type of political belief will succeed in the end but it never does and it will fail again with a terrible loss to the people that are served.EPG said:
It's funny how Syriza can do no wrong on here as long as they are not popular with other European institutions, while in the UK Andy Burnham gets castigated for being an unacceptably far-left socialist.Alanbrooke said:
Rightwilliamglenn said:
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.
like the economy has now shrunk by 50% instead of just 25% ?
As for Syriza I have no idea what he is up too......0 -
The IMF receives its capital from many countries around the world, many very much poorer than Greece therefore it is imperative that the IMF loans are repaid in full.EPG said:
The IMF already provided loans. It is very much an IMF problem if Greece won't pay! In fact, it already is, given that Greece has already defaulted on the IMF, and not the Europeans...MaxPB said:
The IMF won't restructure Greek debt until Greece comes out of the currency union. Just like they wouldn't have stepped in to restructure the debt of California when it was looking like they were about to go bankrupt. It is an EMU problem and must be solved within the EMU. If Greece exits the EMU I have no doubt the IMF will step in, facilitate a debt restructuring and bailout.EPG said:The IMF's position is hilarious.
"Greek absolutely needs debt restructuring". But "The IMF can't do any Greek debt restructuring". Amazing. Somebody else should lose lots of money on their share of the debt, so we get back more of our share of the debt.
Of course in Greece's case the argument these funds should never have been provided as it was highly doubtful that without their own currency to devalue or monetary policy to loosen, alongside an insufficient original restructuring, that they would ever be able to pay the loans off.
Of course lending to the Eurozone countries as well as the Ukraine by the IMF, against their own rules and principles, has rightly been seen as highly politicised decisions and has led to an underming of the IMF in the rest of the world.0 -
"They haven't gone away, you know!"Flightpathl said:Its not being Continuity Ed that is a problem for any Labour candidate. Its being Continuity Labour.
0 -
The devaluing achievements comments, was more directed at @FalseFlag (who appeared to assert that Serena's muscular build meant something dodgy in regard to drug-taking). Nonetheless, the question is why on earth is there a discussion on Serena's appearance in the first place? That's the point I'm trying to make. Serena Williams has won Wimbledon for the sixth time, and instead of a discussion centering on that, it focuses on questioning her appearance; both in terms of the validity of achievements, and whether she conforms to stereotypical standards of femininity.SeanT said:
Twit. Show me where I "devalued her achievements"?The_Apocalypse said:@SeanT
@FalseFlag
Wow, certain people are showing their colours. I'm sure most people aren't obsessed with Serena Williams' appearance; and nor would use it to devalue her achievements. It is rather sad, that some here are attempting to do that; and says more about them, then it says about her.
Serena Williams has a decidedly masculine appearance. She just does. Denying this is fatuous.
Did she get this from drugs, from her genes, or from working out in the gym? I have no idea, neither do I have an opinion. I'm not particularly interested in tennis, from what little I know she seems a like a very fine player of the game.0 -
The IMF has a huge moral and reputational problem in Greece - they are supposed to help countries but seem, inadvertently, to have instead supported the survival of a currency. And in so doing actively damaged Greece. That the IMF's boss is a super-elitist Europol of the first water will not have gone un-noticed. WTF is an IMF member like say Thailand supposed to make of the way they are acting towards Greece?0
-
The ability to debase the currency is no more an essential component of sovereignty than the ability to set up forced labour camps. Democracy can function perfectly well with the constraints of existing in zone of shared sovereignty. The problems only start if people elect politicians who promise the impossible.Richard_Tyndall said:
No country within the Eurozone is sovereign. That is the problem.EPG said:
Greece is perfectly sovereign.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure we should be making a comparison between gunboat diplomacy by the Empire and anything we have today, that we can speaks volumes.foxinsoxuk said:
Just pointing out that in or out of the EU Greeces sovereignty was from the beginning compromised by overseas financial institutions. Nothing new under the sun.MaxPB said:
If the argument is "but the British did it in the 19th century" then I think this whole continent is doomed.foxinsoxuk said:FT correspondant writes:
https://twitter.com/jsphctrl/status/620294809383739392
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!
The problem is they want to keep the euro. An awkward fact for many here, but that is the crux, they like it.0 -
Don't you have sociology papers to mark?The_Apocalypse said:
The devaluing achievements comments, was more directed at @FalseFlag (who appeared to assert that Serena's muscular build meant something dodgy in regard to drug-taking). Nonetheless, the question is why on earth is there a discussion on Serena's appearance in the first place? That's the point I'm trying to make. Serena Williams has won Wimbledon for the sixth time, and instead of a discussion centering on that, it focuses on questioning her appearance; both in terms of the validity of achievements, and whether she conforms to stereotypical standards of femininity.SeanT said:
Twit. Show me where I "devalued her achievements"?The_Apocalypse said:@SeanT
@FalseFlag
Wow, certain people are showing their colours. I'm sure most people aren't obsessed with Serena Williams' appearance; and nor would use it to devalue her achievements. It is rather sad, that some here are attempting to do that; and says more about them, then it says about her.
Serena Williams has a decidedly masculine appearance. She just does. Denying this is fatuous.
Did she get this from drugs, from her genes, or from working out in the gym? I have no idea, neither do I have an opinion. I'm not particularly interested in tennis, from what little I know she seems a like a very fine player of the game.
Cheating is cheating regardless of who does it, it is unfair to other competitors as well as spectators. You seem to lack a moral compass.
0 -
Serena Williams is cheating now (apparently)....oh dear. Oh dear.FalseFlag said:
Don't you have sociology papers to mark?The_Apocalypse said:
The devaluing achievements comments, was more directed at @FalseFlag (who appeared to assert that Serena's muscular build meant something dodgy in regard to drug-taking). Nonetheless, the question is why on earth is there a discussion on Serena's appearance in the first place? That's the point I'm trying to make. Serena Williams has won Wimbledon for the sixth time, and instead of a discussion centering on that, it focuses on questioning her appearance; both in terms of the validity of achievements, and whether she conforms to stereotypical standards of femininity.SeanT said:
Twit. Show me where I "devalued her achievements"?The_Apocalypse said:@SeanT
@FalseFlag
Wow, certain people are showing their colours. I'm sure most people aren't obsessed with Serena Williams' appearance; and nor would use it to devalue her achievements. It is rather sad, that some here are attempting to do that; and says more about them, then it says about her.
Serena Williams has a decidedly masculine appearance. She just does. Denying this is fatuous.
Did she get this from drugs, from her genes, or from working out in the gym? I have no idea, neither do I have an opinion. I'm not particularly interested in tennis, from what little I know she seems a like a very fine player of the game.
Cheating is cheating.0 -
"stereotypical standards of femininity."
Not something I would like to try to say after a few scoops down the pub.....0 -
If you think that the only thing you lose when you join the Eurozone is the ability to debase your currency then you clearly have no idea what membership means.williamglenn said:
The ability to debase the currency is no more an essential component of sovereignty than the ability to set up forced labour camps. Democracy can function perfectly well with the constraints of existing in zone of shared sovereignty. The problems only start if people elect politicians who promise the impossible.Richard_Tyndall said:
No country within the Eurozone is sovereign. That is the problem.EPG said:
Greece is perfectly sovereign.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure we should be making a comparison between gunboat diplomacy by the Empire and anything we have today, that we can speaks volumes.foxinsoxuk said:
Just pointing out that in or out of the EU Greeces sovereignty was from the beginning compromised by overseas financial institutions. Nothing new under the sun.MaxPB said:
If the argument is "but the British did it in the 19th century" then I think this whole continent is doomed.foxinsoxuk said:FT correspondant writes:
https://twitter.com/jsphctrl/status/620294809383739392
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!
The problem is they want to keep the euro. An awkward fact for many here, but that is the crux, they like it.
0 -
I didn't say that but when it comes down to it, that's the reason why Greece's debts are different to Japan's.Richard_Tyndall said:
If you think that the only thing you lose when you join the Eurozone is the ability to debase your currency then you clearly have no idea what membership means.williamglenn said:
The ability to debase the currency is no more an essential component of sovereignty than the ability to set up forced labour camps. Democracy can function perfectly well with the constraints of existing in zone of shared sovereignty. The problems only start if people elect politicians who promise the impossible.Richard_Tyndall said:
No country within the Eurozone is sovereign. That is the problem.EPG said:
Greece is perfectly sovereign.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure we should be making a comparison between gunboat diplomacy by the Empire and anything we have today, that we can speaks volumes.foxinsoxuk said:
Just pointing out that in or out of the EU Greeces sovereignty was from the beginning compromised by overseas financial institutions. Nothing new under the sun.MaxPB said:
If the argument is "but the British did it in the 19th century" then I think this whole continent is doomed.foxinsoxuk said:FT correspondant writes:
https://twitter.com/jsphctrl/status/620294809383739392
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!
The problem is they want to keep the euro. An awkward fact for many here, but that is the crux, they like it.0 -
No, it's not just monetary sovereignty Greece has lost, it has also lost fiscal independence. The Japanese government has fiscal autonomy. Greece is having it's next 30 budgets dictated to it right now in Brussels.williamglenn said:
I didn't say that but when it comes down to it, that's the reason why Greece's debts are different to Japan's.Richard_Tyndall said:
If you think that the only thing you lose when you join the Eurozone is the ability to debase your currency then you clearly have no idea what membership means.williamglenn said:
The ability to debase the currency is no more an essential component of sovereignty than the ability to set up forced labour camps. Democracy can function perfectly well with the constraints of existing in zone of shared sovereignty. The problems only start if people elect politicians who promise the impossible.Richard_Tyndall said:
No country within the Eurozone is sovereign. That is the problem.EPG said:
Greece is perfectly sovereign.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure we should be making a comparison between gunboat diplomacy by the Empire and anything we have today, that we can speaks volumes.foxinsoxuk said:
Just pointing out that in or out of the EU Greeces sovereignty was from the beginning compromised by overseas financial institutions. Nothing new under the sun.MaxPB said:
If the argument is "but the British did it in the 19th century" then I think this whole continent is doomed.foxinsoxuk said:FT correspondant writes:
https://twitter.com/jsphctrl/status/620294809383739392
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!
The problem is they want to keep the euro. An awkward fact for many here, but that is the crux, they like it.0 -
Danny565 said:
This is my thinking. I think Corbyn would be a disaster, but they're just not going to learn otherwise.EPG said:If you were one of the thirty one per cent Labour voters, wouldn't you be depressed by Harriet Harman's caving to the thirty seven percent Conservative voters on welfare? Wouldn't you feel very, very tempted to vote Corbyn to tell the party aristocrats that they can't just throw away their own side? I wonder.
As the last 5 years have shown, if Labour doesn't properly counter Tory arguments then the public will conclude the Tories must be right.
I'm not a Europhile but i really can see no reason why a Greek referendum vote against 'austerity' should in any way bind the rest of the Eurozone to accept it. I don't even understand how you can prevent austerity through a vote in any parliament. I doesn't make any kind of sense. It's like a vote against gravity.PeterC said:
The recent spectacle has been appalling. It makes the EU look like some disreputable racket. In our own referendum my vote has switched from likely IN to likely OUT.SeanT said:
I believe so. The knicker wetting of idiot europhiles, as they see their precious Project crumble, is quite the spectacle.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. T, my French is rubbish.
Is it: for the third time in history, a German government is [something meaning 'going to bugger up'] Europe?0 -
Permission to celebrate two Indians, Sanya Mirza and Leander Paes, on winning the Ladies Doubles and Mixed Doubles respectively, each of them partnering Martina Hingis.
0 -
The Greeks have already been through a more severe depression than the USA in 1929-33. They're now being instructed to make it worse.williamglenn said:
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.0 -
Sunil_Prasannan said:
Permission to celebrate two Indians, Sanya Mirza and Leander Paes, on winning the Ladies Doubles and Mixed Doubles respectively, each of them partnering Martina Hingis.
On the Greek situation, it looks like Syriza will split in two as a result of this deal. An interesting few days ahead....0 -
Agreed, but after the No vote, the EU should have presented Tsipras with Grexit, because the will of the people was for no austerity, there can be no Euro without austerity. Not only are the EU ignoring the will of the Greek people, so is Tsipras. If the current government comes crashing down, an even more extreme party will replace SYRIZA, ANEL seems like a good candidate. They already have one foot out of the door in their coalition with SYRIZA after Tsipras' about turn, and should that be enough to bring the government down with the help of other parties and SYRIZA's disaffected leftist wing then ANEL will be in a good position to hoover up the anti-austerity votes.felix said:Danny565 said:
This is my thinking. I think Corbyn would be a disaster, but they're just not going to learn otherwise.EPG said:If you were one of the thirty one per cent Labour voters, wouldn't you be depressed by Harriet Harman's caving to the thirty seven percent Conservative voters on welfare? Wouldn't you feel very, very tempted to vote Corbyn to tell the party aristocrats that they can't just throw away their own side? I wonder.
As the last 5 years have shown, if Labour doesn't properly counter Tory arguments then the public will conclude the Tories must be right.
I'm not a Europhile but i really can see no reason why a Greek referendum vote against 'austerity' should in any way bind the rest of the Eurozone to accept it. I don't even understand how you can prevent austerity through a vote in any parliament. I doesn't make any kind of sense. It's like a vote against gravity.PeterC said:
The recent spectacle has been appalling. It makes the EU look like some disreputable racket. In our own referendum my vote has switched from likely IN to likely OUT.SeanT said:
I believe so. The knicker wetting of idiot europhiles, as they see their precious Project crumble, is quite the spectacle.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. T, my French is rubbish.
Is it: for the third time in history, a German government is [something meaning 'going to bugger up'] Europe?0 -
Reuters 18 mins ago.Sean_F said:
The Greeks have already been through a more severe depression than the USA in 1929-33. They're now being instructed to make it worse.williamglenn said:
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.
Euro zone leaders told near-bankrupt Greece at an emergency summit on Sunday that it must enact key reforms this week to restore trust before they will open talks on any new financial rescue to keep it in the European currency area.
Leftist Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras will be required to push legislation through parliament to convince his 18 partners in the euro zone to release immediate funds to avert a state bankruptcy and start negotiations on a third bailout programme.
Six sweeping measures including tax and pension reforms will have to be enacted by Wednesday night and the entire package endorsed by parliament before talks can start, a draft decision sent by Eurogroup finance ministers to the leaders showed.
The document also included a German proposal to make Greece take a "time-out" from the euro zone if it failed to meet the conditions for a loan. But not all ministers endorsed the idea, which was reserved in brackets in the text seen by Reuters. A senior EU source said such a temporary exit from the euro was illegal and would not survive in the summit statement.
Tsipras said on arrival in Brussels he wanted "another honest compromise" to keep Europe united.
"We can reach an agreement tonight if all parties want it," he said.0 -
SYRIZA may be split, but the reason Tsipras sent the austerity document to New Democracy, PASOK and To Potami first is because he knew he was going to split his party and would need their votes to win the confidence of Parliament should it come to that. I wouldn't be surprised if a "Unity government" forms later this week in Greece with Tsipras as the head and the other party leaders given ministerial roles.SeanT said:
Quite. But Greece has no good choices. Grexit could be just as bad. It could even be worse. No one really knows, it's never happened before.Sean_F said:
The Greeks have already been through a more severe depression than the USA in 1929-33. They're now being instructed to make it worse.williamglenn said:
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.
Unsurprisingly, Twitter is reporting huge political turmoil in Athens tonight. Syriza is split. Elections loom. Tsipras may be gone by the end of the week.
Chaos.0 -
Another day , another meeting and yet another deadline. Wednesday looks like a critical day.SeanT said:
Quite. But Greece has no good choices. Grexit could be just as bad. It could even be worse. No one really knows, it's never happened before.Sean_F said:
The Greeks have already been through a more severe depression than the USA in 1929-33. They're now being instructed to make it worse.williamglenn said:
The former Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis was interviewed on Sky saying that all the parties are united that they will pass whatever legislation is required to get a deal to stay in the Eurozone.SeanT said:Guardian:
Tsipras "waterboarded" by Merkel and Hollande. Told Greece must become ward of EU, or leave the euro.
"Ward". Vassal. Helpless colony. Satrapy. Trivial outlying province, left to rot by the metropole.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live
This is surely an offer that Tsipras is being invited to refuse. No sane politician could accept. Could they?
If the Greek political class gets its act together and carries out the structural reforms that are needed we could be saying very different things about the impact of the EU in 2 years' time.
Unsurprisingly, Twitter is reporting huge political turmoil in Athens tonight. Syriza is split. Elections loom. Tsipras may be gone by the end of the week.
Chaos.
If he survives even that long. What will the Greek Parliament do because without agreement to the demands made it surely will be Grexit on Thursday morning.
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No - That is surely a choice for the Greeks. they can walk away from the Euro at any time - and the IMF for that matter. The real problem is simply them wanting lots of other folks' cake and to eat it as well. The very fact that they are being supported in this enterprise by the French tells us all we need to know about the negotiations - they're the biggest consumers of other folks' cakes in the EU - Marie Antoinette never really knew what she started when she uttered that phrase did she?MaxPB said:
Agreed, but after the No vote, the EU should have presented Tsipras with Grexit, because the will of the people was for no austerity, there can be no Euro without austerity. Not only are the EU ignoring the will of the Greek people, so is Tsipras. If the current government comes crashing down, an even more extreme party will replace SYRIZA, ANEL seems like a good candidate. They already have one foot out of the door in their coalition with SYRIZA after Tsipras' about turn, and should that be enough to bring the government down with the help of other parties and SYRIZA's disaffected leftist wing then ANEL will be in a good position to hoover up the anti-austerity votes.felix said:Danny565 said:
This is my thinking. I think Corbyn would be a disaster, but they're just not going to learn otherwise.EPG said:If you were one of the thirty one per cent Labour voters, wouldn't you be depressed by Harriet Harman's caving to the thirty seven percent Conservative voters on welfare? Wouldn't you feel very, very tempted to vote Corbyn to tell the party aristocrats that they can't just throw away their own side? I wonder.
As the last 5 years have shown, if Labour doesn't properly counter Tory arguments then the public will conclude the Tories must be right.
I'm not a Europhile but i really can see no reason why a Greek referendum vote against 'austerity' should in any way bind the rest of the Eurozone to accept it. I don't even understand how you can prevent austerity through a vote in any parliament. I doesn't make any kind of sense. It's like a vote against gravity.PeterC said:
The recent spectacle has been appalling. It makes the EU look like some disreputable racket. In our own referendum my vote has switched from likely IN to likely OUT.SeanT said:
I believe so. The knicker wetting of idiot europhiles, as they see their precious Project crumble, is quite the spectacle.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. T, my French is rubbish.
Is it: for the third time in history, a German government is [something meaning 'going to bugger up'] Europe?0
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