Jesus, Merkel really doesn't have a clue what she's doing, does she.
I think her reputation as someone very sensibly cautious and careful in European affairs is being exposed as actually being that of a serial-undecider paralyzed by domestic concerns just like everyone else, even recognising the immense difficulty of the situation and her position.
Good night all, we'll see if Greece is still here in the morning.
"The scale of the demands being put on Greece tonight have alarmed German news magazine Spiegel. It has labelled them as a ‘deliberate humiliation’ of Greece, which Alexis Tsipras will struggle to get through parliament."
"Bild, the German tabloid, is reporting tonight that Alexis Tsipras is going to propose early elections this autumn.
It reckons that Tsipras is also pondering asking the Greek president to form a unity government, to drive his reform programme through parliament, given the scale of opposition in Syriza. With the centrist To Potami party refusing to join a coalition, Tsipras has little choice but to go to the polls."
Jesus, Merkel really doesn't have a clue what she's doing, does she.
I think her reputation as someone very sensibly cautious and careful in European affairs is being exposed as actually being that of a serial-undecider paralyzed by domestic concerns just like everyone else, even recognising the immense difficulty of the situation and her position.
Good night all, we'll see if Greece is still here in the morning.
I think the problem is that Merkel expects the Greeks to behave rationally and to keep their word. The fact that they do neither makes negotiations very difficult. Could any other leader do better?
The Euro is getting set to surpass the dollar in the total value of notes in circulation. Some are asking whether this is the first nail in the dollar's coffin."
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
EDIT: Dare I also say PB would also insist on taking away fiscal powers held by the far-left SLabRYIZA party.
How the dollar might lose its status as the world's main reserve currency Sep 29th 2005 | From the print edition
The likeliest pretender to the dollar's crown is the euro. Reserve currencies need to have a home economy with a large share of global output, trade and finance. America's economy still dominates, but the euro area is not much smaller. The euro area's total trade with the rest of the world is about as big as America's; about half of this trade is invoiced in euros. The financial market of the reserve currency country must also be deep, open and well developed. America leads the euro area by most measures, but the creation of the single currency has helped to integrate Europe's financial markets."
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
EDIT: Dare I also say PB would also insist on taking away fiscal powers held by the far-left SLabRYIZA party.
Scotland isn't a sovereign nation. The comparison is stupid, like your posts.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
EDIT: Dare I also say PB would also insist on taking away fiscal powers held by the far-left SLabRYIZA party.
Scotland isn't a sovereign nation. The comparison is stupid, like your posts.
Let's get real. If full fiscal Scotland owed debt to England, and decided in a referendum to repudiate it and give two fingers to Westminster, the PB consensus would be to pull the ships out of Faslane and park them in firing range of Holyrood.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
EDIT: Dare I also say PB would also insist on taking away fiscal powers held by the far-left SLabRYIZA party.
Scotland? Errrr.....What's that got to do with the price of togas and grapes?
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
I don't know if I agree. There's two sides to the negotiation. Germany is a democracy; their government represents two in three voters. France is a democracy. Spain is a democracy. Italy is a democracy.
Contempt for democracy would be to say Greece can unilaterally vote bailout taxes on all the other European or euro area countries.
This is intergovernmental negotiation, and a democratic EU would mean Greeks could indeed vote for taxes on Germans, but we don't have that.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
EDIT: Dare I also say PB would also insist on taking away fiscal powers held by the far-left SLabRYIZA party.
Scotland isn't a sovereign nation. The comparison is stupid, like your posts.
Let's get real. If full fiscal Scotland owed debt to England, and decided in a referendum to repudiate it and give two fingers to Westminster, the PB consensus would be to pull the ships out of Faslane and park them in firing range of Holyrood.
If you have a working federal system, states can go bankrupt just fine. The problem is the EU is a Byzantine mess where nothing works the way it is supposed to.
'Jesus, Merkel really doesn't have a clue what she's doing, does she.'
Clearly she's not used to dealing with idiots like Tsipras and governments that are basket cases.
She grew up in East Germany. The very definition of a basket case economy and country. She ought to have had plenty of practice dealing with delusional politicians who had no understanding of reality and a contempt for the effects of their policies on ordinary people.
'Jesus, Merkel really doesn't have a clue what she's doing, does she.'
Clearly she's not used to dealing with idiots like Tsipras and governments that are basket cases.
Alex White 1m1 minute ago Alex White @AlexWhite1812 The stock of political capital that Germany has burned through this weekend is immense. Unclear how it will be replaced
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
I don't know if I agree. There's two sides to the negotiation. Germany is a democracy; their government represents two in three voters. France is a democracy. Spain is a democracy. Italy is a democracy.
Contempt for democracy would be to say Greece can unilaterally vote bailout taxes on all the other European or euro area countries.
This is intergovernmental negotiation, and a democratic EU would mean Greeks could indeed vote for taxes on Germans, but we don't have that.
Your last sentence neatly exposes why the euro - without a single democratic government in charge - cannot work. Both the Germans and the Greeks want the benefits of the euro without any of the concomitant responsibilities. German politicians are - and have been - at least as dishonest as Greek politicians about what a successful single currency and "ever closer union" really entails.
'Jesus, Merkel really doesn't have a clue what she's doing, does she.'
Clearly she's not used to dealing with idiots like Tsipras and governments that are basket cases.
Alex White 1m1 minute ago Alex White @AlexWhite1812 The stock of political capital that Germany has burned through this weekend is immense. Unclear how it will be replaced
Political capital among whom, exactly? As far as I can see, plenty of Northern European countries agree with Germany's stance.
The fact that the basic running of a currency needs to be sorted by negotiations between governments is part of the whole problem in the first place. Currencies need to be governed in a stable manner, with rapid and decisive responses when necessary. The Euro has a system that could have been designed to be deliberately volatile and gridlocked. The whole thing is a shambles. Thank God John Major negotiated an opt-out. As with Schengen, it seems our best decisions in the EU are when we opt out of stuff.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
The Germans are on the one hand claiming they want to keep the Euro together and are avoiding putting Grexit in the document, while on the other hand deliberately putting unacceptable demands in the latest offer and getting Finland to say how drastic it all is to force the Greeks out. That shows they are being as deceptive and Machiavellian about things as anyone. It is no way to run an economy.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
The EU as "democracy in action".
Really, Dr Foxnsox: pull the other one.
Which of the EU negotiators does not have a democratic mandate? I accept that the IMF does not.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
No it's actually not. this is an appalling tragedy and about as far from democracy as you can get. As for directly elected and representative ha! greatest laugh of the night.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
With respect Mr Fox, the hard line being taken by Germany and her allies is beyond "...each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people." There is no need to humiliate Greece itself for the actions of her politicians - but that's what seems to be happening from my reading of the BBC live blog.
As pointed out earlier the Germans of all people should know not to humiliate nations.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
The EU as "democracy in action".
Really, Dr Foxnsox: pull the other one.
Which of the EU negotiators does not have a democratic mandate? I accept that the IMF does not.
The ECB. And Greece, seeing that the Greek public voted no to a deal less severe.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
I don't know if I agree. There's two sides to the negotiation. Germany is a democracy; their government represents two in three voters. France is a democracy. Spain is a democracy. Italy is a democracy.
Contempt for democracy would be to say Greece can unilaterally vote bailout taxes on all the other European or euro area countries.
This is intergovernmental negotiation, and a democratic EU would mean Greeks could indeed vote for taxes on Germans, but we don't have that.
Your last sentence neatly exposes why the euro - without a single democratic government in charge - cannot work. Both the Germans and the Greeks want the benefits of the euro without any of the concomitant responsibilities. German politicians are - and have been - at least as dishonest as Greek politicians about what a successful single currency and "ever closer union" really entails.
It's not clear to me why. Greeks can't vote for special taxes on Germans, but they still want the euro. Furthermore, it did not make the euro fail for Spain, Portugal and other countries with problems. Greece had much larger problems, but debt relief could have resolved the sustainability part before rock stars in leather jackets began lecturing Europe.
Incidentally, a lot of Belgians agree with this analysis. They'd quite like the UK out and everyone else in the euro so they can get integrating.
The Germans are on the one hand claiming they want to keep the Euro together and are avoiding putting Grexit in the document, while on the other hand deliberately putting unacceptable demands in the latest offer and getting Finland to say how drastic it all is to force the Greeks out. That shows they are being as deceptive and Machiavellian about things as anyone. It is no way to run an economy.
Why do you say that Germany is pulling the strings in Finland? The Finns have long been the hardest line of the EZ countries.
The fact that the basic running of a currency needs to be sorted by negotiations between governments is part of the whole problem in the first place. Currencies need to be governed in a stable manner, with rapid and decisive responses when necessary. The Euro has a system that could have been designed to be deliberately volatile and gridlocked. The whole thing is a shambles. Thank God John Major negotiated an opt-out. As with Schengen, it seems our best decisions in the EU are when we opt out of stuff.
I don't think this is correct at all. The negotiations between governments are not about the basic running of a currency, but about a programme of funding for a state and about whether a debt is repudiated or not. The euro itself is governed by the ECB which has shown behaviours of the types you describe.
The Germans are on the one hand claiming they want to keep the Euro together and are avoiding putting Grexit in the document, while on the other hand deliberately putting unacceptable demands in the latest offer and getting Finland to say how drastic it all is to force the Greeks out. That shows they are being as deceptive and Machiavellian about things as anyone. It is no way to run an economy.
Why do you say that Germany is pulling the strings in Finland? The Finns have long been the hardest line of the EZ countries.
They've played the bad cop in the routine for a while. Never before in the EU has Finland broken out from Germany publicly, but suddenly they do when a negotiation is in progress.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people. S That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
The EU as "democracy in action".
Really, Dr Foxnsox: pull the other one.
Which of the EU negotiators does not have a democratic mandate? I accept that the IMF does not.
Reportedly, the Germans want to write Greece's budgets. Who in Greece gets to vote for or against Mrs Merkel?
Or will they find - yet again - that a technocratic government replaces the one they voted for, much as happened in Italy?
"No taxation without representation" led to a War of Independence and the US's founding fathers made a far better job of setting up a federal system that worked than this Byzantine mess. A pity the Europeans chose to ignore the lessons from the U.S. experience.
The fact that the basic running of a currency needs to be sorted by negotiations between governments is part of the whole problem in the first place. Currencies need to be governed in a stable manner, with rapid and decisive responses when necessary. The Euro has a system that could have been designed to be deliberately volatile and gridlocked. The whole thing is a shambles. Thank God John Major negotiated an opt-out. As with Schengen, it seems our best decisions in the EU are when we opt out of stuff.
I don't think this is correct at all. The negotiations between governments are not about the basic running of a currency, but about a programme of funding for a state and about whether a debt is repudiated or not. The euro itself is governed by the ECB which has shown behaviours of the types you describe.
No - part of the negotiations are about whether the central bank's basic responsibility to provide liquidity to the financial system will happen or not. Sovereign countries get that whether they default or not.
Realistically, the Euro should just be limited to the Northern European countries, and Greece should just leave the Eurozone. The proposals are deliberately designed by a fed-up Germany, to push Greece out of the Eurozone, and I don't see Greece ever recovering while they are in the Eurozone. But there's been much talk of this as a 'humiliation' - but I can't really blame Germany. Syriza and their tactics over the last couple of months have completely destroyed any goodwill there might have been, and furthermore Greek governments have proven reluctant to implement the reforms needed to make these bailouts remotely worth it. In that sense, I'm not surprised at all by Germany's harsh stance.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
The EU as "democracy in action".
Really, Dr Foxnsox: pull the other one.
Which of the EU negotiators does not have a democratic mandate? I accept that the IMF does not.
The ECB. And Greece, seeing that the Greek public voted no to a deal less severe.
The ECB directors are appointed by QMV by the European Council; rather more democratic than the appointment of our own B of E.
The Greek negotiators have a democratic mandate to fight austerity, but not one to force the other EZ countries to pay Greeces taxes.
The Germans are on the one hand claiming they want to keep the Euro together and are avoiding putting Grexit in the document, while on the other hand deliberately putting unacceptable demands in the latest offer and getting Finland to say how drastic it all is to force the Greeks out. That shows they are being as deceptive and Machiavellian about things as anyone. It is no way to run an economy.
Why do you say that Germany is pulling the strings in Finland? The Finns have long been the hardest line of the EZ countries.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people. S That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
The EU as "democracy in action".
Really, Dr Foxnsox: pull the other one.
Which of the EU negotiators does not have a democratic mandate? I accept that the IMF does not.
Reportedly, the Germans want to write Greece's budgets. Who in Greece gets to vote for or against Mrs Merkel?
Or will they find - yet again - that a technocratic government replaces the one they voted for, much as happened in Italy?
"No taxation without representation" led to a War of Independence and the US's founding fathers made a far better job of setting up a federal system that worked than this Byzantine mess. A pity the Europeans chose to ignore the lessons from the U.S. experience.
Washington was in charge of a Continental Army, and Britain was threatening the most secessionist states with liberation of their slaves. It was an easier basis to create federalism than the EU had!
Incidentally, a lot of Belgians agree with this analysis. They'd quite like the UK out and everyone else in the euro so they can get integrating.
Ha! Belgium. A shining example of integration that is! A manufactured state with deep linguistic cultural divisions and rising flemish nationalism (see Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie party) They can't even integrate themselves properly, never mind Europe.
‘A common currency means common government; the one is meaningless and impossible without the other. Accept common money and you have accepted common government ….If one threatens to diverge what happens? …..they order it to alter its ways and dictate to it how to do so. Who then is doing the dictating? Where will be that common government which a common currency implies?……France and Germany, who hatched and willed this business, will see to it that they rule the roost: a Franco German hegemony , as France intends, or a German hegemony….All this has nothing to do with common markets or freedom of trade or all the alleged ideals of the EEC. Quite the reverse. This is not about freedom; it is about compulsion.’
Realistically, the Euro should just be limited to the Northern European countries, and Greece should just leave the Eurozone. The proposals are deliberately designed by a fed-up Germany, to push Greece out of the Eurozone, and I don't see Greece ever recovering while they are in the Eurozone. But there's been much talk of this as a 'humiliation' - but I can't really blame Germany. Syriza and their tactics over the last couple of months have completely destroyed any goodwill there might have been, and furthermore Greek governments have proven reluctant to implement the reforms needed to make these bailouts remotely worth it. In that sense, I'm not surprised at all by Germany's harsh stance.
The Germans would swap us for the Freeks into the Euro in a heartbeat !
No-one involved in this emerges with any credit: not the Greeks, not Syriza, not the Germans, not the ECB, not the EU bureaucracy, not the IMF. No-one.
Thank God we're not in the eurozone.
I'm seriously beginning to doubt whether being in the EU will be in our long-term interests.
The fact that the basic running of a currency needs to be sorted by negotiations between governments is part of the whole problem in the first place. Currencies need to be governed in a stable manner, with rapid and decisive responses when necessary. The Euro has a system that could have been designed to be deliberately volatile and gridlocked. The whole thing is a shambles. Thank God John Major negotiated an opt-out. As with Schengen, it seems our best decisions in the EU are when we opt out of stuff.
I don't think this is correct at all. The negotiations between governments are not about the basic running of a currency, but about a programme of funding for a state and about whether a debt is repudiated or not. The euro itself is governed by the ECB which has shown behaviours of the types you describe.
No - part of the negotiations are about whether the central bank's basic responsibility to provide liquidity to the financial system will happen or not. Sovereign countries get that whether they default or not.
Central banks don't unconditionally provide liquidity to financial institutions anywhere. There are always conditions. They must be solvent, pay up, and so on.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Incidentally, a lot of Belgians agree with this analysis. They'd quite like the UK out and everyone else in the euro so they can get integrating.
Ha! Belgium. A shining example of integration that is! A manufactured state with deep linguistic cultural divisions and rising flemish nationalism (see Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie party) They can't even integrate themselves properly, never mind Europe.
Meh. Britain is a manufactured state, going in the direction of greater separation of its constituent parts since 1999, right? Come to think of it, which state wasn't manufactured?
‘A common currency means common government; the one is meaningless and impossible without the other.
Yes, and from 1997 by Milton Friedman
"...Europe’s common market exemplifies a situation that is unfavorable to a common currency. It is composed of separate nations, whose residents speak different languages, have different customs, and have far greater loyalty and attachment to their own country than to the common market or to the idea of "Europe." Despite being a free trade area, goods move less freely than in the United States, and so does capital.
The European Commission based in Brussels, indeed, spends a small fraction of the total spent by governments in the member countries. They, not the European Union’s bureaucracies, are the important political entities. Moreover, regulation of industrial and employment practices is more extensive than in the United States, and differs far more from country to country than from American state to American state. As a result, wages and prices in Europe are more rigid, and labor less mobile. In those circumstances, flexible exchange rates provide an extremely useful adjustment mechanism.
If one country is affected by negative shocks that call for, say, lower wages relative to other countries, that can be achieved by a change in one price, the exchange rate, rather than by requiring changes in thousands on thousands of separate wage rates, or the emigration of labor. The hardships imposed on France by its "franc fort" policy illustrate the cost of a politically inspired determination not to use the exchange rate to adjust to the impact of German unification. Britain’s economic growth after it abandoned the European Exchange Rate Mechanism a few years ago to refloat the pound illustrates the effectiveness of the exchange rate as an adjustment mechanism."
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
The EU as "democracy in action".
Really, Dr Foxnsox: pull the other one.
Which of the EU negotiators does not have a democratic mandate? I accept that the IMF does not.
The ECB. And Greece, seeing that the Greek public voted no to a deal less severe.
The ECB directors are appointed by QMV by the European Council; rather more democratic than the appointment of our own B of E.
The Greek negotiators have a democratic mandate to fight austerity, but not one to force the other EZ countries to pay Greeces taxes.
If you're claiming that the ECB's influence on the Greek economy right now is a demonstration of democracy in action, then you're really showing the logical contortions the EU's defenders have to go to in order to defend this charade.
Realistically, the Euro should just be limited to the Northern European countries, and Greece should just leave the Eurozone. The proposals are deliberately designed by a fed-up Germany, to push Greece out of the Eurozone, and I don't see Greece ever recovering while they are in the Eurozone. But there's been much talk of this as a 'humiliation' - but I can't really blame Germany. Syriza and their tactics over the last couple of months have completely destroyed any goodwill there might have been, and furthermore Greek governments have proven reluctant to implement the reforms needed to make these bailouts remotely worth it. In that sense, I'm not surprised at all by Germany's harsh stance.
The Germans would swap us for the Freeks into the Euro in a heartbeat !
Yep, I think they would too. Thank god this country will never in the Euro, though. I see the down at CIF they are having a nervous breakdown at all of this.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
The EU as "democracy in action".
Really, Dr Foxnsox: pull the other one.
Which of the EU negotiators does not have a democratic mandate? I accept that the IMF does not.
The ECB. And Greece, seeing that the Greek public voted no to a deal less severe.
The ECB directors are appointed by QMV by the European Council; rather more democratic than the appointment of our own B of E.
The Greek negotiators have a democratic mandate to fight austerity, but not one to force the other EZ countries to pay Greeces taxes.
If you're claiming that the ECB's influence on the Greek economy right now is a demonstration of democracy in action, then you're really showing the logical contortions the EU's defenders have to go to in order to defend this charade.
Goodnight all.
Then the BoE isn't democratic either. Almost no developed-country central bank would be, despite being appointed by democratically elected governments.
Incidentally, a lot of Belgians agree with this analysis. They'd quite like the UK out and everyone else in the euro so they can get integrating.
Ha! Belgium. A shining example of integration that is! A manufactured state with deep linguistic cultural divisions and rising flemish nationalism (see Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie party) They can't even integrate themselves properly, never mind Europe.
Meh. Britain is a manufactured state, going in the direction of greater separation of its constituent parts since 1999, right? Come to think of it, which state wasn't manufactured?
Meh, yourself! You want a long list? Look at all the main states in Europe and you'll see that they grew organically over many years, coalescing around shared culture, the greatest part of which is a shared language.Manufactured states, especially polyglot ones fall apart.
Building a sense of shared identity, a "demos" takes time. Part of the problem with the Eu is that it has not realised this and tried to force political integration too quickly. It hasn't taken people with it. Its mistaken enthusiasm for friendly relations and co-operation for a desire to build a United States of Europe.
The fact that the basic running of a currency needs to be sorted by negotiations between governments is part of the whole problem in the first place. Currencies need to be governed in a stable manner, with rapid and decisive responses when necessary. The Euro has a system that could have been designed to be deliberately volatile and gridlocked. The whole thing is a shambles. Thank God John Major negotiated an opt-out. As with Schengen, it seems our best decisions in the EU are when we opt out of stuff.
I don't think this is correct at all. The negotiations between governments are not about the basic running of a currency, but about a programme of funding for a state and about whether a debt is repudiated or not. The euro itself is governed by the ECB which has shown behaviours of the types you describe.
No - part of the negotiations are about whether the central bank's basic responsibility to provide liquidity to the financial system will happen or not. Sovereign countries get that whether they default or not.
Central banks don't unconditionally provide liquidity to financial institutions anywhere. There are always conditions. They must be solvent, pay up, and so on.
Yes. The Bank of England refused to provide liquidity to Northern Rock. We should not confuse 'responsibility' with 'requirement'. A central bank does what it thinks best - its choice may be wrong. But a lender of last resort always has the option of refusing to lend in the last resort and of imposing its conditions for lending.
'No-one involved in this emerges with any credit: not the Greeks, not Syriza, not the Germans, not the ECB, not the EU bureaucracy, not the IMF. No-one.'
How much longer would you like the German and other taxpayers to bailout Greece ?
Greece has already had two massive bailouts,has refused to implement some of the conditions and now come back for a third bailout all in the space of 5 years.
Another two or three bailouts with optional conditions ?
Incidentally, a lot of Belgians agree with this analysis. They'd quite like the UK out and everyone else in the euro so they can get integrating.
Ha! Belgium. A shining example of integration that is! A manufactured state with deep linguistic cultural divisions and rising flemish nationalism (see Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie party) They can't even integrate themselves properly, never mind Europe.
Meh. Britain is a manufactured state, going in the direction of greater separation of its constituent parts since 1999, right? Come to think of it, which state wasn't manufactured?
Meh, yourself! You want a long list? Look at all the main states in Europe and you'll see that they grew organically over many years, coalescing around shared culture, the greatest part of which is a shared language.Manufactured states, especially polyglot ones fall apart.
Building a sense of shared identity, a "demos" takes time. Part of the problem with the Eu is that it has not realised this and tried to force political integration too quickly. It hasn't taken people with it. Its mistaken enthusiasm for friendly relations and co-operation for a desire to build a United States of Europe.
Polyglot countries of continental Europe. I don't know them all, but here's a start:
Realistically, the Euro should just be limited to the Northern European countries, and Greece should just leave the Eurozone. The proposals are deliberately designed by a fed-up Germany, to push Greece out of the Eurozone, and I don't see Greece ever recovering while they are in the Eurozone. But there's been much talk of this as a 'humiliation' - but I can't really blame Germany. Syriza and their tactics over the last couple of months have completely destroyed any goodwill there might have been, and furthermore Greek governments have proven reluctant to implement the reforms needed to make these bailouts remotely worth it. In that sense, I'm not surprised at all by Germany's harsh stance.
It is not just Germany though is it. The German opinion is adding strength to the other countries who are also saying the same thing. The EZ is collectively guilty for this mess of course. Greece have been bending the rules for too long and should not have been let in the game without proper supervision.
Incidentally, a lot of Belgians agree with this analysis. They'd quite like the UK out and everyone else in the euro so they can get integrating.
Ha! Belgium. A shining example of integration that is! A manufactured state with deep linguistic cultural divisions and rising flemish nationalism (see Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie party) They can't even integrate themselves properly, never mind Europe.
Meh. Britain is a manufactured state, going in the direction of greater separation of its constituent parts since 1999, right? Come to think of it, which state wasn't manufactured?
Meh, yourself! You want a long list? Look at all the main states in Europe and you'll see that they grew organically over many years, coalescing around shared culture, the greatest part of which is a shared language.Manufactured states, especially polyglot ones fall apart.
Building a sense of shared identity, a "demos" takes time. Part of the problem with the Eu is that it has not realised this and tried to force political integration too quickly. It hasn't taken people with it. Its mistaken enthusiasm for friendly relations and co-operation for a desire to build a United States of Europe.
Britain: series of mergers in the 18th century Germany and Italy: cobbled together in the mid-19th century under external threat France: powerful feudal vassals united by efforts of centralised absolute monarchy over many decades Poland: physically moved westward in the 1940s
Be careful with causation. Unified states standardise and codify their languages. There was once a continuum of German speech from Antwerp to Graz with dialectical differences from county to county, but Dutch and German states made national standard registers more popular and accentuated differences across borders. The same goes for French/Occitan/Catalan/Castilian.
I doubt in any of these cases that a "demos" existed among the illiterate peasants. Maybe that means we've stopped manufacturing identities, but it doesn't mean that Belgians don't really see themselves as Belgians.
Realistically, the Euro should just be limited to the Northern European countries, and Greece should just leave the Eurozone. The proposals are deliberately designed by a fed-up Germany, to push Greece out of the Eurozone, and I don't see Greece ever recovering while they are in the Eurozone. But there's been much talk of this as a 'humiliation' - but I can't really blame Germany. Syriza and their tactics over the last couple of months have completely destroyed any goodwill there might have been, and furthermore Greek governments have proven reluctant to implement the reforms needed to make these bailouts remotely worth it. In that sense, I'm not surprised at all by Germany's harsh stance.
It is not just Germany though is it. The German opinion is adding strength to the other countries who are also saying the same thing. The EZ is collectively guilty for this mess of course. Greece have been bending the rules for too long and should not have been let in the game without proper supervision.
I know that many of the Northern European countries are supporting Germany, but Germany right now (well, online at least - I don't know how representative of public opinion Twitter and CIF is on this one) is getting all of blame, with people mentioning WW1, and WW2. No one appears to be blaming the other countries, or even noticing that Germany are not isolated in their stance.
Realistically, the Euro should just be limited to the Northern European countries, and Greece should just leave the Eurozone. The proposals are deliberately designed by a fed-up Germany, to push Greece out of the Eurozone, and I don't see Greece ever recovering while they are in the Eurozone. But there's been much talk of this as a 'humiliation' - but I can't really blame Germany. Syriza and their tactics over the last couple of months have completely destroyed any goodwill there might have been, and furthermore Greek governments have proven reluctant to implement the reforms needed to make these bailouts remotely worth it. In that sense, I'm not surprised at all by Germany's harsh stance.
It is not just Germany though is it. The German opinion is adding strength to the other countries who are also saying the same thing. The EZ is collectively guilty for this mess of course. Greece have been bending the rules for too long and should not have been let in the game without proper supervision.
I know that many of the Northern European countries are supporting Germany, but Germany right now (well, online at least - I don't know how representative of public opinion Twitter and CIF is on this one) is getting all of blame, with people mentioning WW1, and WW2. No one appears to be blaming the other countries, or even noticing that Germany are not isolated in their stance.
On this issue the Germans are guilty of being right but repulsive.
Anyhow, better news from the latest tweets from negotiations. Greece is getting concessions.
I wouldn't emphasise too much one negotiating position. Germany wasn't going to get things all its way from a policy document any more than Greece was from its non-policy referendum. Yeah, it's not pure democracy, it's international co-operation, so the majority doesn't just neatly overrule the minority, but it hopefully leads to better outcomes than leaving Greece to be the sovereign, independent, envy of the Out side all over Europe (ahem - sorry - typo). Media are trying to sell us drama too to keep us reading - well, who's surprised by that?
Realistically, the Euro should just be limited to the Northern European countries, and Greece should just leave the Eurozone. The proposals are deliberately designed by a fed-up Germany, to push Greece out of the Eurozone, and I don't see Greece ever recovering while they are in the Eurozone. But there's been much talk of this as a 'humiliation' - but I can't really blame Germany. Syriza and their tactics over the last couple of months have completely destroyed any goodwill there might have been, and furthermore Greek governments have proven reluctant to implement the reforms needed to make these bailouts remotely worth it. In that sense, I'm not surprised at all by Germany's harsh stance.
It is not just Germany though is it. The German opinion is adding strength to the other countries who are also saying the same thing. The EZ is collectively guilty for this mess of course. Greece have been bending the rules for too long and should not have been let in the game without proper supervision.
I know that many of the Northern European countries are supporting Germany, but Germany right now (well, online at least - I don't know how representative of public opinion Twitter and CIF is on this one) is getting all of blame, with people mentioning WW1, and WW2. No one appears to be blaming the other countries, or even noticing that Germany are not isolated in their stance.
Be careful about extrapolating your own reading of the situation to others, or confusing the twitterverse with reality. I saw one piece today that stated that Germany's block was 9 countries, the 'want a deal but not at any price' bloc at 5 countries, and the 'deal at any price' bloc at only 4 (albeit France, Italy, Spain and Lux). So there is very considerable support within the EZ 19-1 for Germany's idea of not doing a bad deal.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
With respect Mr Fox, the hard line being taken by Germany and her allies is beyond "...each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people." There is no need to humiliate Greece itself for the actions of her politicians - but that's what seems to be happening from my reading of the BBC live blog.
As pointed out earlier the Germans of all people should know not to humiliate nations.
Come off it - a nation is not being humiliated, its govt is not trusted. Collectively Greece has been thumbing its nose for too long. We are talking big numbers they have to commit to bale Greece out. Where did all the rest go? What would you do if it was your money? If every one of those billions of Euros was yours - well, what would you be saying to Mr Tsipras? (Be careful with your answer here because being an expert in 'game theory' is what put Mr Tsipras in this position so clearly he is no peabrain. Err...mmm )
' I don't know how representative of public opinion Twitter and CIF is on this one) is getting all of blame, with people mentioning WW1, and WW2. No one appears to be blaming the other countries, or even noticing that Germany are not isolated in '
It's not, if Twitter et al had been half right about the last GE Labour were nailed on with a majority. The left excels when it comes to making noise.
Realistically, the Euro should just be limited to the Northern European countries, and Greece should just leave the Eurozone. The proposals are deliberately designed by a fed-up Germany, to push Greece out of the Eurozone, and I don't see Greece ever recovering while they are in the Eurozone. But there's been much talk of this as a 'humiliation' - but I can't really blame Germany. Syriza and their tactics over the last couple of months have completely destroyed any goodwill there might have been, and furthermore Greek governments have proven reluctant to implement the reforms needed to make these bailouts remotely worth it. In that sense, I'm not surprised at all by Germany's harsh stance.
It is not just Germany though is it. The German opinion is adding strength to the other countries who are also saying the same thing. The EZ is collectively guilty for this mess of course. Greece have been bending the rules for too long and should not have been let in the game without proper supervision.
I know that many of the Northern European countries are supporting Germany, but Germany right now (well, online at least - I don't know how representative of public opinion Twitter and CIF is on this one) is getting all of blame, with people mentioning WW1, and WW2. No one appears to be blaming the other countries, or even noticing that Germany are not isolated in their stance.
Be careful about extrapolating your own reading of the situation to others, or confusing the twitterverse with reality. I saw one piece today that stated that Germany's block was 9 countries, the 'want a deal but not at any price' bloc at 5 countries, and the 'deal at any price' bloc at only 4 (albeit France, Italy, Spain and Lux). So there is very considerable support within the EZ 19-1 for Germany's idea of not doing a bad deal.
Most of whom don't twitter much en anglais.
Even anglais Twitters seem to me (a non-expert) to be mostly underemployed underaged journalists.
What an utter shambles the EU is. If our referendum were tomorrow I'd be heading towards the "No" counter.
If this were full fiscal autonomy Scotland, I don't imagine the PB consensus would be to break up the United Kingdom. It would be to blame the Scots for their profligacy.
We're I Scottish I would likely have voted for independence, out of self-respect as much as anything.
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
What we are seeing is democracy in action. All of the negotiators have been democratically elected and are accountable to their electors. The negotiations are not about bullying or contempt, but each country seeking to find a solution acceptable to its people.
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
The EU as "democracy in action". Really, Dr Foxnsox: pull the other one.
Which of the EU negotiators does not have a democratic mandate? I accept that the IMF does not.
But then again the IMF does have all the control knobs on its side.
Italy (for example) isn't "a polyglot" in the sense that I understand it. Italy is overwhelmingly Italian in culture and language with a small Germanic(Austrian) minority in the Tyrol. I don't think you can call a country polyglot - in the political sense - unless the minority groups are much larger.
Spain, for example is polyglot because it has significant numbers of speakers of minority languages (Basque, Catalan, Galician) as well as the majority Castillian, and arguably you can count Portuguese in the mix as well. These languages reinforce senses of identity in regions which historically were actually independent.
A lot of the other countries that you mention have minority languages within their current borders due to the messy nature of European borders, which tend to be fuzzy rather than crisp and clear. Alsace-Lorraine is an excellent example of this. The town names alternate between Germanic sounding and French sounding, reflecting the history of the inhabitants. The UK has been relatively free of these concerns. As an island we've known where our borders are in the main, because your feet get wet when you come to them.
Now, like everyone else seems to be doing, I'll sign off.
Anyhow, better news from the latest tweets from negotiations. Greece is getting concessions.
I wouldn't emphasise too much one negotiating position. Germany wasn't going to get things all its way from a policy document any more than Greece was from its non-policy referendum. Yeah, it's not pure democracy, it's international co-operation, so the majority doesn't just neatly overrule the minority, but it hopefully leads to better outcomes than leaving Greece to be the sovereign, independent, envy of the Out side all over Europe (ahem - sorry - typo). Media are trying to sell us drama too to keep us reading - well, who's surprised by that?
The PBers eulogising over Greece and clever 'game theory' seem strangely reticent about concluding the obvious when it comes to Germany's supposed proposal for a temporary rest for Greece from the Euro. Its pretty stupid of Greekophiles to think that others cannot take a page from the Tspiras play book. Hardball is as hardball does. Its 15 years too late of course.
Incidentally, a lot of Belgians agree with this analysis. They'd quite like the UK out and everyone else in the euro so they can get integrating.
Ha! Belgium. A shining example of integration that is! A manufactured state with deep linguistic cultural divisions and rising flemish nationalism (see Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie party) They can't even integrate themselves properly, never mind Europe.
Meh. Britain is a manufactured state, going in the direction of greater separation of its constituent parts since 1999, right? Come to think of it, which state wasn't manufactured?
Meh, yourself! You want a long list? Look at all the main states in Europe and you'll see that they grew organically over many years, coalescing around shared culture, the greatest part of which is a shared language.Manufactured states, especially polyglot ones fall apart.
Building a sense of shared identity, a "demos" takes time. Part of the problem with the Eu is that it has not realised this and tried to force political integration too quickly. It hasn't taken people with it. Its mistaken enthusiasm for friendly relations and co-operation for a desire to build a United States of Europe.
Polyglot countries of continental Europe. I don't know them all, but here's a start:
Italy (for example) isn't "a polyglot" in the sense that I understand it. Italy is overwhelmingly Italian in culture and language with a small Germanic(Austrian) minority in the Tyrol. I don't think you can call a country polyglot - in the political sense - unless the minority groups are much larger.
Spain, for example is polyglot because it has significant numbers of speakers of minority languages (Basque, Catalan, Galician) as well as the majority Castillian, and arguably you can count Portuguese in the mix as well. These languages reinforce senses of identity in regions which historically were actually independent.
A lot of the other countries that you mention have minority languages within their current borders due to the messy nature of European borders, which tend to be fuzzy rather than crisp and clear. Alsace-Lorraine is an excellent example of this. The town names alternate between Germanic sounding and French sounding, reflecting the history of the inhabitants. The UK has been relatively free of these concerns. As an island we've known where our borders are in the main, because your feet get wet when you come to them.
Now, like everyone else seems to be doing, I'll sign off.
Goodnight all and pleasant dreams.
Ah, yes!
But I have to note that the UK isn't an island... Everything is more complex than it ought to be!
On this issue the Germans are guilty of being right but repulsive.
Yep, I think that's probably it.
@john_zims I think I'm one of the few people on the Left not to take a pro-Syriza stance. But yes, twitter is generally much more left-leaning than the population in general. A lot of them love Corbyn, Ed Miliband, and are half preparing to start a revolution! Your average person generally isn't that interested in politics, and tends to have fairly moderate opinions on issues.
@ MTimT Thanks for the information. The way some are talking, you'd think Tsipras has apparently turned the whole EU against Germany - when the most prominent 'deal at any price' countries have been Italy, France, and Luxembourg. I actually think Spain has come across as more on the sidelines than pro a deal no matter what.
On this issue the Germans are guilty of being right but repulsive.
Yep, I think that's probably it.
@john_zims I think I'm one of the few people on the Left not to take a pro-Syriza stance. But yes, twitter is generally much more left-leaning than the population in general. A lot of them love Corbyn, Ed Miliband, and are half preparing to start a revolution! Your average person generally isn't that interested in politics, and tends to have fairly moderate opinions on issues.
@ MTimT Thanks for the information. The way some are talking, you'd think Tsipras has apparently turned the whole EU against Germany - when the most prominent 'deal at any price' countries have been Italy, France, and Luxembourg. I actually think Spain has come across as more on the sidelines than pro a deal no matter what.
It's quite something to see otherwise sensible people accusing Germany of organising a coup or trying to take over Europe for a third time on the basis of a few leaks from an unresolved negotiation with very high stakes.
So in 1832 the British government got first call on Greek finances to repay the loans made by the British under the Treaty of Constantinople.
How glorious the days of Empire before the EU were!
If the argument is "but the British did it in the 19th century" then I think this whole continent is doomed.
Just pointing out that in or out of the EU Greeces sovereignty was from the beginning compromised by overseas financial institutions. Nothing new under the sun.
I'm not sure we should be making a comparison between gunboat diplomacy by the Empire and anything we have today, that we can speaks volumes.
Greece is perfectly sovereign.
The problem is they want to keep the euro. An awkward fact for many here, but that is the crux, they like it.
No country within the Eurozone is sovereign. That is the problem.
The ability to debase the currency is no more an essential component of sovereignty than the ability to set up forced labour camps. Democracy can function perfectly well with the constraints of existing in zone of shared sovereignty. The problems only start if people elect politicians who promise the impossible.
If you think that the only thing you lose when you join the Eurozone is the ability to debase your currency then you clearly have no idea what membership means.
I didn't say that but when it comes down to it, that's the reason why Greece's debts are different to Japan's.
No, it's not just monetary sovereignty Greece has lost, it has also lost fiscal independence. The Japanese government has fiscal autonomy. Greece is having it's next 30 budgets dictated to it right now in Brussels.
There's all kinds of politically-difficult, interest-group-upsetting good policy in the creditors' proposals. (Sunday trading FTW.) This is exactly what Japan needs. Hopefully when the IMF takes over Kasumigaseki the supermarkets will stop running out of butter.
Incidentally, a lot of Belgians agree with this analysis. They'd quite like the UK out and everyone else in the euro so they can get integrating.
Ha! Belgium. A shining example of integration that is! A manufactured state with deep linguistic cultural divisions and rising flemish nationalism (see Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie party) They can't even integrate themselves properly, never mind Europe.
Meh. Britain is a manufactured state, going in the direction of greater separation of its constituent parts since 1999, right? Come to think of it, which state wasn't manufactured?
Quite. All nations are to some degree arbitrary and manufactured. I have a great deal of emotional investment in the UK, the thought of it breaking up worries and upsets me, but despite a much longer history, all tribes are manufactured in some sense. Some now still lack a shared Demos as someone put it, but no doubt we all did at some point.
'On this issue the Germans are guilty of being right but repulsive'
Why just Germany, surely all the other countries that agree & support the German stance Holland, Finland, Slovakia etc. are also repulsive ?
How many more bailouts would you be happy with where conditions are attached but the Greek government treats the conditions as optional ?
Indeed. It's tough on Greece, it may even be humiliating, but in itself that doesn't make the tough negotiating stances of others unfair and certainly not undemocratic. If their peoples have to cough up, their governments are acting in their interests to demand concessions. That doesn't make every demand reasonable or these proposals decent, but at the end of the day Greece is asking other states for help and they are deciding how much help they should give based in how much it will cost them. It's normal, if not what European ideal rhetoric likes to think about.
Incidentally, a lot of Belgians agree with this analysis. They'd quite like the UK out and everyone else in the euro so they can get integrating.
Ha! Belgium. A shining example of integration that is! A manufactured state with deep linguistic cultural divisions and rising flemish nationalism (see Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie party) They can't even integrate themselves properly, never mind Europe.
Meh. Britain is a manufactured state, going in the direction of greater separation of its constituent parts since 1999, right? Come to think of it, which state wasn't manufactured?
Meh, yourself! You want a long list? Look at all the main states in Europe and you'll see that they grew organically over many years, coalescing around shared culture, the greatest part of which is a shared language.Manufactured states, especially polyglot ones fall apart.
Building a sense of shared identity, a "demos" takes time. Part of the problem with the Eu is that it has not realised this and tried to force political integration too quickly. It hasn't taken people with it. Its mistaken enthusiasm for friendly relations and co-operation for a desire to build a United States of Europe.
Polyglot countries of continental Europe. I don't know them all, but here's a start:
French in the Netherlands? No, that's Belgium (French and Dutch, with a bit of German)
Sunil, the Maastricht area speaks Limburgish, but at one time also spoke French (at least that's what a Dutch diplomat friend from there told me a long time ago).
Hi all I'll soon be back. Had a testing time moving house. The plAce needs residing in parts so I'll be using my i'Phone for a bit but only from time to time
Comments
Good night all, we'll see if Greece is still here in the morning.
John Deere has chartered a 767 with 100 all first class seats to fly Open players to the UK, leaving in about 2 hours.
There is no charge for golfers making the trip, but each one must donate $1,250 to John Deere Charities.
"The scale of the demands being put on Greece tonight have alarmed German news magazine Spiegel. It has labelled them as a ‘deliberate humiliation’ of Greece, which Alexis Tsipras will struggle to get through parliament."
"Bild, the German tabloid, is reporting tonight that Alexis Tsipras is going to propose early elections this autumn.
It reckons that Tsipras is also pondering asking the Greek president to form a unity government, to drive his reform programme through parliament, given the scale of opposition in Syriza. With the centrist To Potami party refusing to join a coalition, Tsipras has little choice but to go to the polls."
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2006/12/is_the_dollar_dead
"Is the dollar dead?
Dec 30th 2006, 17:33 BY THE ECONOMIST | NEW YORK
The Euro is getting set to surpass the dollar in the total value of notes in circulation. Some are asking whether this is the first nail in the dollar's coffin."
EDIT: Dare I also say PB would also insist on taking away fiscal powers held by the far-left SLabRYIZA party.
http://www.economist.com/node/4455891
"Currency competition
How the dollar might lose its status as the world's main reserve currency
Sep 29th 2005 | From the print edition
The likeliest pretender to the dollar's crown is the euro. Reserve currencies need to have a home economy with a large share of global output, trade and finance. America's economy still dominates, but the euro area is not much smaller. The euro area's total trade with the rest of the world is about as big as America's; about half of this trade is invoiced in euros. The financial market of the reserve currency country must also be deep, open and well developed. America leads the euro area by most measures, but the creation of the single currency has helped to integrate Europe's financial markets."
Tom Nuttall@tom_nuttall
Tsipras seeking 4 changes to EG note:
1 No IMF involvement
2 Stronger statement on debt
3 Signal to ECB to maintain ELA
4 Scrap 50bn idea
Greece may well be the author - along with many others - of its own misfortune. But the Germans of all people should understand what national humiliation can do to a country. The French too.
The EU was meant to bring people together not create a situation where we are talking about giving humanitarian aid to fellow Europeans, who have not suffered some volcanic, cyclonic or flood disaster. At present the EU is giving an impression of dishonesty, bullying and a contempt for democracy. Why any sane person would want to tie themselves more closely to that beats me, I have to say.
Let's see where we are in the morning.
'Jesus, Merkel really doesn't have a clue what she's doing, does she.'
Clearly she's not used to dealing with idiots like Tsipras and governments that are basket cases.
Contempt for democracy would be to say Greece can unilaterally vote bailout taxes on all the other European or euro area countries.
This is intergovernmental negotiation, and a democratic EU would mean Greeks could indeed vote for taxes on Germans, but we don't have that.
1m1 minute ago
Alex White @AlexWhite1812
The stock of political capital that Germany has burned through this weekend is immense. Unclear how it will be replaced
That solution may not be possible, but if one is agreed then each finance minister and PM will have to answer for it.
Really, Dr Foxnsox: pull the other one.
I just cannot wait for the referendum.
As pointed out earlier the Germans of all people should know not to humiliate nations.
Incidentally, a lot of Belgians agree with this analysis. They'd quite like the UK out and everyone else in the euro so they can get integrating.
The exception that proves the rule is Germany, this chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports goes a long way to explaining the economic case for the Euro in Germany, mind ^_~.
Or will they find - yet again - that a technocratic government replaces the one they voted for, much as happened in Italy?
"No taxation without representation" led to a War of Independence and the US's founding fathers made a far better job of setting up a federal system that worked than this Byzantine mess. A pity the Europeans chose to ignore the lessons from the U.S. experience.
The Greek negotiators have a democratic mandate to fight austerity, but not one to force the other EZ countries to pay Greeces taxes.
They can't even integrate themselves properly, never mind Europe.
‘A common currency means common government; the one is meaningless and impossible without the other. Accept common money and you have accepted common government ….If one threatens to diverge what happens? …..they order it to alter its ways and dictate to it how to do so. Who then is doing the dictating? Where will be that common government which a common currency implies?……France and Germany, who hatched and willed this business, will see to it that they rule the roost: a Franco German hegemony , as France intends, or a German hegemony….All this has nothing to do with common markets or freedom of trade or all the alleged ideals of the EEC. Quite the reverse. This is not about freedom; it is about compulsion.’
Thank God we're not in the eurozone.
I'm seriously beginning to doubt whether being in the EU will be in our long-term interests.
Let's see what happens.
Goodnight all.
"...Europe’s common market exemplifies a situation that is unfavorable to a common currency. It is composed of separate nations, whose residents speak different languages, have different customs, and have far greater loyalty and attachment to their own country than to the common market or to the idea of "Europe." Despite being a free trade area, goods move less freely than in the United States, and so does capital.
The European Commission based in Brussels, indeed, spends a small fraction of the total spent by governments in the member countries. They, not the European Union’s bureaucracies, are the important political entities. Moreover, regulation of industrial and employment practices is more extensive than in the United States, and differs far more from country to country than from American state to American state. As a result, wages and prices in Europe are more rigid, and labor less mobile. In those circumstances, flexible exchange rates provide an extremely useful adjustment mechanism.
If one country is affected by negative shocks that call for, say, lower wages relative to other countries, that can be achieved by a change in one price, the exchange rate, rather than by requiring changes in thousands on thousands of separate wage rates, or the emigration of labor. The hardships imposed on France by its "franc fort" policy illustrate the cost of a politically inspired determination not to use the exchange rate to adjust to the impact of German unification. Britain’s economic growth after it abandoned the European Exchange Rate Mechanism a few years ago to refloat the pound illustrates the effectiveness of the exchange rate as an adjustment mechanism."
Goodnight all.
You want a long list? Look at all the main states in Europe and you'll see that they grew organically over many years, coalescing around shared culture, the greatest part of which is a shared language.Manufactured states, especially polyglot ones fall apart.
Building a sense of shared identity, a "demos" takes time. Part of the problem with the Eu is that it has not realised this and tried to force political integration too quickly. It hasn't taken people with it. Its mistaken enthusiasm for friendly relations and co-operation for a desire to build a United States of Europe.
'No-one involved in this emerges with any credit: not the Greeks, not Syriza, not the Germans, not the ECB, not the EU bureaucracy, not the IMF. No-one.'
How much longer would you like the German and other taxpayers to bailout Greece ?
Greece has already had two massive bailouts,has refused to implement some of the conditions and now come back for a third bailout all in the space of 5 years.
Another two or three bailouts with optional conditions ?
Belgium (French, Flemish)
France (French, German, Breton)
Italy (Italian, German)
Spain (Spanish, Basque, Catalan)
Finland (Finnish, Swedish)
Switzerland (German, French, Italian, Romansch)
Netherlands (Dutch, French)
Sweden (Swedish, Finnish, Sami)
Germany (German, Fresian, Danish)
Denmark (Danish, Faroese, Greenlander)
and so on ...
The EZ is collectively guilty for this mess of course. Greece have been bending the rules for too long and should not have been let in the game without proper supervision.
Germany and Italy: cobbled together in the mid-19th century under external threat
France: powerful feudal vassals united by efforts of centralised absolute monarchy over many decades
Poland: physically moved westward in the 1940s
Be careful with causation. Unified states standardise and codify their languages. There was once a continuum of German speech from Antwerp to Graz with dialectical differences from county to county, but Dutch and German states made national standard registers more popular and accentuated differences across borders. The same goes for French/Occitan/Catalan/Castilian.
I doubt in any of these cases that a "demos" existed among the illiterate peasants. Maybe that means we've stopped manufacturing identities, but it doesn't mean that Belgians don't really see themselves as Belgians.
I wouldn't emphasise too much one negotiating position. Germany wasn't going to get things all its way from a policy document any more than Greece was from its non-policy referendum. Yeah, it's not pure democracy, it's international co-operation, so the majority doesn't just neatly overrule the minority, but it hopefully leads to better outcomes than leaving Greece to be the sovereign, independent, envy of the Out side all over Europe (ahem - sorry - typo). Media are trying to sell us drama too to keep us reading - well, who's surprised by that?
(Be careful with your answer here because being an expert in 'game theory' is what put Mr Tsipras in this position so clearly he is no peabrain. Err...mmm )
' I don't know how representative of public opinion Twitter and CIF is on this one) is getting all of blame, with people mentioning WW1, and WW2. No one appears to be blaming the other countries, or even noticing that Germany are not isolated in '
It's not, if Twitter et al had been half right about the last GE Labour were nailed on with a majority. The left excels when it comes to making noise.
Even anglais Twitters seem to me (a non-expert) to be mostly underemployed underaged journalists.
I don't think you can call a country polyglot - in the political sense - unless the minority groups are much larger.
Spain, for example is polyglot because it has significant numbers of speakers of minority languages (Basque, Catalan, Galician) as well as the majority Castillian, and arguably you can count Portuguese in the mix as well. These languages reinforce senses of identity in regions which historically were actually independent.
A lot of the other countries that you mention have minority languages within their current borders due to the messy nature of European borders, which tend to be fuzzy rather than crisp and clear. Alsace-Lorraine is an excellent example of this. The town names alternate between Germanic sounding and French sounding, reflecting the history of the inhabitants.
The UK has been relatively free of these concerns. As an island we've known where our borders are in the main, because your feet get wet when you come to them.
Now, like everyone else seems to be doing, I'll sign off.
Goodnight all and pleasant dreams.
But I have to note that the UK isn't an island... Everything is more complex than it ought to be!
@john_zims I think I'm one of the few people on the Left not to take a pro-Syriza stance. But yes, twitter is generally much more left-leaning than the population in general. A lot of them love Corbyn, Ed Miliband, and are half preparing to start a revolution! Your average person generally isn't that interested in politics, and tends to have fairly moderate opinions on issues.
@ MTimT Thanks for the information. The way some are talking, you'd think Tsipras has apparently turned the whole EU against Germany - when the most prominent 'deal at any price' countries have been Italy, France, and Luxembourg. I actually think Spain has come across as more on the sidelines than pro a deal no matter what.
@john_zims I think I'm one of the few people on the Left not to take a pro-Syriza stance. But yes, twitter is generally much more left-leaning than the population in general. A lot of them love Corbyn, Ed Miliband, and are half preparing to start a revolution! Your average person generally isn't that interested in politics, and tends to have fairly moderate opinions on issues.
@ MTimT Thanks for the information. The way some are talking, you'd think Tsipras has apparently turned the whole EU against Germany - when the most prominent 'deal at any price' countries have been Italy, France, and Luxembourg. I actually think Spain has come across as more on the sidelines than pro a deal no matter what.
'On this issue the Germans are guilty of being right but repulsive'
Why just Germany, surely all the other countries that agree & support the German stance Holland, Finland, Slovakia etc. are also repulsive ?
How many more bailouts would you be happy with where conditions are attached but the Greek government treats the conditions as optional ?
Yes: 4 / 4.1
No: 1.33 / 1.34
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.117087478
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live