politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Schrödinger’s referendum as Boris wants voters to vote both
Options
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Schrödinger’s referendum as Boris wants voters to vote both Yes and No to leaving the EU
BORIS JOHNSON is preparing to call for a “no” vote in Britain’s referendum on the European Union in an attempt to extract greater concessions from Brussels than David Cameron is demanding.
0
Comments
-
First!0
-
I like boris. I like watching him on tv. He has a funny way of falling over things.
He's crap at politics, though.0 -
Repeated From Previous Thread:
Comment seen in an in-game chat channel: " you just have to look a Greece to realize that reality and what people think have only a passing resemblance to each other"
During the UK election, in the same chat channel, a particularly poor play was described as being performing nearly as incompetently as Miliband eating a bacon sandwich, to the confusion of the Americans present.
Obviously, these comments aren't any more representative than random pub conversations, but they are a modern version of the same thing, giving some rough indication of popular mood in the appropriate demographic. When your sandwich eating is treated as the standard for incompetence by pretty non-political 20-somethings, that's a pretty good sign you've got an image problem.
Likewise, the comment quoted above suggests a lot of normal people think Greece has lost touch with reality.0 -
OT Boris is being an idiot.Robert_Of_Sheffield said:Repeated From Previous Thread:
Comment seen in an in-game chat channel: " you just have to look a Greece to realize that reality and what people think have only a passing resemblance to each other"
During the UK election, in the same chat channel, a particularly poor play was described as being performing nearly as incompetently as Miliband eating a bacon sandwich, to the confusion of the Americans present.
Obviously, these comments aren't any more representative than random pub conversations, but they are a modern version of the same thing, giving some rough indication of popular mood in the appropriate demographic. When your sandwich eating is treated as the standard for incompetence by pretty non-political 20-somethings, that's a pretty good sign you've got an image problem.
Likewise, the comment quoted above suggests a lot of normal people think Greece has lost touch with reality.
Greece - two snap opinion polls suggest the Greeks will vote yes to the EU proposal. I suspect Tspiras is finished. Podemos in Spain take note.0 -
"appealing to the Outers in the Tory party, who will form a substantial part of the voters who will elect the next Tory leader."
I thought the Tories were a pro EU party?
This is a ridiculous proposal by Boris and it's why the result of the referendum should be enshrined in law. If we vote to leave and don't actually do it, why would the rest of the EU expect us to vote to leave again and actually do it?0 -
The Greeks ability to pay has certainly lost touch with reality. It seems that the decision to remain in the Euro may not be in their hands.Robert_Of_Sheffield said:Repeated From Previous Thread:
Comment seen in an in-game chat channel: " you just have to look a Greece to realize that reality and what people think have only a passing resemblance to each other"
During the UK election, in the same chat channel, a particularly poor play was described as being performing nearly as incompetently as Miliband eating a bacon sandwich, to the confusion of the Americans present.
Obviously, these comments aren't any more representative than random pub conversations, but they are a modern version of the same thing, giving some rough indication of popular mood in the appropriate demographic. When your sandwich eating is treated as the standard for incompetence by pretty non-political 20-somethings, that's a pretty good sign you've got an image problem.
Likewise, the comment quoted above suggests a lot of normal people think Greece has lost touch with reality.
Out of curiosity, that seems like a very cerebral sort of in-game chat. What's the game?
0 -
It was one of the Kongregate.com chat rooms. It's a site which hosts a lot of flash games. Many of them are dire, but they do include some decent puzzles and logic games, so it's not just teenagers boasting about how elite they are, just because their reflexes are a microsecond faster.Omnium said:Out of curiosity, that seems like a very cerebral sort of in-game chat. What's the game?
0 -
The UK will always have a good relationship with most of Europe. That is not enhanced by being in the EU. There is no appetite for their 'ever closer union' aim.
Nobody believes that Cameron will achieve anything material with his 'renegotiation', especially when he has made plain that he'll accept whatever is offered.
Boris is claiming that he'd be a cannier negotiator than Cameron. He's right.
0 -
The last Top Gear of old will go out tonight at 8pm BBC2 http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/ingear/cars/article1573212.ece0
-
Bull.david_kendrick1 said:
Boris is claiming that he'd be a cannier negotiator than Cameron. He's right.
Boris plays to the gallery too much and doesn't care about the detail. Cameron is actually pretty good at the negotiation lark.0 -
I am not sure how much evidence there is for that, I think its fairer to say that he is lucky, which is not a bad attribute to have, but can't be relied on indefinitely.Charles said:
Bull.david_kendrick1 said:
Boris is claiming that he'd be a cannier negotiator than Cameron. He's right.
Boris plays to the gallery too much and doesn't care about the detail. Cameron is actually pretty good at the negotiation lark.
"You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck."
(There is an old apocryphal story about the chief pilot for an unnamed airline who faced with a huge pile of applications on his desk, picks up half the letters and drops them in the waste bin, responding to the raised eyebrows of his secretary he explains that he only wants lucky pilots working for him)0 -
This suggests to me that Cammo has indeed anointed Gideon as his heir. Not sure how much Boris really wants to be in 10 Downing Street, though - surely it would cramp his style. Buying "Top Gear" from the Beeb and fronting it on BoJoTV is more his line of country, surely.0
-
Apropos GrExit, surely the consequences in other countries isn't so much the worry that parties like Podemas will rise to power on the back of it, but rather that the bond markets will start to speculate on which country will be the next out the door. Once the illusion of euro membership being an irreversible choice is broken, the markets are going to be looking for signs of weakness in other countries, and bond prices in those countries are going to go through the roof.0
-
Good morning, everyone.
Unusually moronic from Boris. It'll piss off both sides, and all reasonable people.
No means No. It means we want to bloody leave. And if you don't want us to leave, then vote Yes. Boris' plan is to campaign for something he doesn't want, it seems, then ignore the result if he achieves it.0 -
It is becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron haters on PB that whatever deal he returns with will be presented to the populace..who will then decide..it has nothing whatsoever to do with his personal choice which will amount to one single vote.0
-
It is equally tedious to point out to you that all the polls show that whether or not Cameron recommends a deal makes a huge difference to the way people claim they will vote. Cameron carries huge numbers of votes with him depending on whether he recommends a deal or not.richardDodd said:It is becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron haters on PB that whatever deal he returns with will be presented to the populace..who will then decide..it has nothing whatsoever to do with his personal choice which will amount to one single vote.
0 -
Its becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron admirers on PB that as the Prime Minster of the UK, especially one which has passed laws removing the purdah requirement on the EU referendum, his views are massively important, because several tens on millions of pounds of government advertising will be shouting them from the roof tops. It is disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that the substantial bully pulpit that is Cameron's cannot and will not be used to build a coalition of the great and the good to support his view whatever that turns out to be, and fatuous to suggest that his personal choice is immaterial and no more important than anyone elses.richardDodd said:It is becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron haters on PB that whatever deal he returns with will be presented to the populace..who will then decide..it has nothing whatsoever to do with his personal choice which will amount to one single vote.
0 -
Opponents of the EU are complaining now that David Cameron is popular and influential? Well it's a line of argument I suppose.0
-
Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?0
-
Cameron is popular and influential in the UK, self-evidently so since he just won an election. This clearly matters since that is where the referendum is.antifrank said:Opponents of the EU are complaining now that David Cameron is popular and influential? Well it's a line of argument I suppose.
Cameron is neither popular nor influential in the EU, this matters because that is the substance of the referendum, vis, he isn't going to come home with anything of substance.
Your legal training allows to to smoothly elide one with the other to score a point with the jury, but it's meaningless.0 -
Andrew Neil retweeted
Robbie Gibb @RobbieGibb 33m33 minutes ago
@aedinandrew @afneil We have postponed the interview with Nick Clegg because of the terrible events in Tunisia.
0 -
It surprises me that so many Tories on PB seem to be positioning themselves as the heir to Ken Clark.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
Morning all. Glad to see that my lay on Boris for next Con leader at close to evens is still looking like good value.0
-
A lot of them are Cleggite Lib Dems that quietly changed their rosette when Cameron became leader of the Conservative Party, this shouldn't be a bit surprise since you could hardly put a cigarette paper between their policies except those that were trumpeted to the public for purposes of "differentiation"SandyRentool said:
It surprises me that so many Tories on PB seem to be positioning themselves as the heir to Ken Clark.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
I remember a similar quote from a number of flying instructors - mainly the ones with the grey hair!Indigo said:
"You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck."Charles said:
Bull.david_kendrick1 said:
Boris is claiming that he'd be a cannier negotiator than Cameron. He's right.
Boris plays to the gallery too much and doesn't care about the detail. Cameron is actually pretty good at the negotiation lark.
0 -
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
Incidentally, which pber(s) is it that have worked on screen-writing and trying to get a green light for proposals to go into production? I know we've got at least one, but I can't remember who.
Got to stress this question, alas, isn't asked on my behalf but someone published with the same chaps doing my books is at an early stage in a potential film deal.0 -
IIRC its @MarqueeMark - green-lit still pending production. @seant has sold film rights for one of his books too.Morris_Dancer said:
Incidentally, which pber(s) is it that have worked on screen-writing and trying to get a green light for proposals to go into production? I know we've got at least one, but I can't remember who.
Got to stress this question, alas, isn't asked on my behalf but someone published with the same chaps doing my books is at an early stage in a potential film deal.0 -
So if Dave decides its futile, and comes home and says "its a waste of time, I am going to campaign for out" and then uses his bully pulpit and government money to campaign for OUT. You will be completely happy with that ? Or is it only when he is likely to support your preferred view ?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
Cheers, Miss Plato
0 -
Of course I'd be happy with that. I expect politicians to have views and to lead. What else do we elect them for?Indigo said:
So if Dave decides its futile, and comes home and says "its a waste of time, I am going to campaign for out" and then uses his bully pulpit and government money to campaign for OUT. You will be completely happy with that ? Or is it only when he is likely to support your preferred view ?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
FE: watched the race yesterday after all. A few exciting moments (Vergne drove well) but a lot of nonsense. Track was badly designed (too tight), so it started (in the dry) behind a safety car, which is lame. Also, the on-screen information was rubbish compared with F1 (for example, radio messages were heard but names didn't appear on the screen).
I do think it has potential, although its very trendiness will attract environmentalists, if they're evangelical about it I can see that putting off people who just want to see cars drive quickly (speaking of which, it's still too damned slow).0 -
Desperate, transparent, contemptible stuff from Boris; sp proving he would be quite unfit to ever lead the Tories. In that sense, I suppose, he is doing his party a very big favour by speaking to "friends" about this. This is a gift for Osborne, who stands head and shoulders above his colleagues (much as I dislike his politics).0
-
Mr. Observer, it's inexplicable, vacillating stupidity from Boris. Can you fathom his reasoning? It just seems designed to annoy everyone.
Whilst I concur about Osborne, the biggest question will be whether he actually wants it. If he does, and gets it, we'll have a weird comparison between the antagonistic Blair/Brown relationship and premierships, and the more amicable Cameron/Osborne one.0 -
Who is complaining? Just pointing out the facts to Mr Dodd.antifrank said:Opponents of the EU are complaining now that David Cameron is popular and influential? Well it's a line of argument I suppose.
0 -
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
For once I was very nearly with you all the way there - then you spoil it with your bracketsSouthamObserver said:Desperate, transparent, contemptible stuff from Boris; sp proving he would be quite unfit to ever lead the Tories. In that sense, I suppose, he is doing his party a very big favour by speaking to "friends" about this. This is a gift for Osborne, who stands head and shoulders above his colleagues (much as I dislike his politics).
The problem for Boris is that both Cameron and Osborne are there, mostly being sensible and he's left up the creek , etc.0 -
OT For our resident space nerds - nice docu on The Shuttle. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0109cc7/the-space-shuttle-a-horizon-guide0
-
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
MD Re film options... I was at another Producer meeting last night to discuss that very event.. looking good..I am away on a film shoot for the next five weeks or so and will restart negotiations when I return..Good fun..0
-
Message for you, Mr. Dodd.0
-
What on earth is there to decide. Whatever Dave comes up with , it would be madness to leave the EU.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
There you go... decision made for you.0 -
I cal you on that Antifrank. I say you are being outright dishonest. Of course you have decided. You had decided years ago and have never made a single comment on here to indicate you are anything other than a complete Eurofanatic. Not surprising given your vested interests in staying in of course.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
Pretending otherwise for the sake of winning an argment is just sad.
And of course yes I have decided to vote OUT no matter what Cameron comes back with. The EU cannot be trusted to keep its promises and Cameron is not asking for anything like a bare minimum needed to make any difference. Even if he gets everything he is asking for it will be no where near enough.0 -
Brown was and is a sociopath, the other three aren't; that's the difference. Luckily, Brown's inability to deal with Blair's leadership meant that the UK stayed well clear of the Euro. The rest was pure destruction.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, it's inexplicable, vacillating stupidity from Boris. Can you fathom his reasoning? It just seems designed to annoy everyone.
Whilst I concur about Osborne, the biggest question will be whether he actually wants it. If he does, and gets it, we'll have a weird comparison between the antagonistic Blair/Brown relationship and premierships, and the more amicable Cameron/Osborne one.
0 -
ROFLantifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
Mr. Observer, succinct summary. Cheers.0
-
Thanks for purporting to read my mind. If you troubled to read what I have written consistently over many years rather than project what you imagine my views to be, you would have seen that I am in the truest sense sceptical about the EU and the direction is heading.Richard_Tyndall said:
I cal you on that Antifrank. I say you are being outright dishonest. Of course you have decided. You had decided years ago and have never made a single comment on here to indicate you are anything other than a complete Eurofanatic. Not surprising given your vested interests in staying in of course.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
Pretending otherwise for the sake of winning an argment is just sad.
And of course yes I have decided to vote OUT no matter what Cameron comes back with. The EU cannot be trusted to keep its promises and Cameron is not asking for anything like a bare minimum needed to make any difference. Even if he gets everything he is asking for it will be no where near enough.
One of the main deterrents to voting for Out is the maniacal tendency of the Europhobes to treat everything from Brussels as an emanation of the antichrist.
It's not so much an evil organisation as an outdated one. The question is whether it can change enough to be worth sticking with, given its current direction. The signs are not promising and I shall have an invidious choice in a couple of years' time.0 -
What might prompt you to vote No?antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
Well judging by the other comments here you obviously need to work on your presentational skills because no one seems to believe you.antifrank said:
Thanks for purporting to read my mind. If you troubled to read what I have written consistently over many years rather than project what you imagine my views to be, you would have seen that I am in the truest sense sceptical about the EU and the direction is heading.Richard_Tyndall said:
I cal you on that Antifrank. I say you are being outright dishonest. Of course you have decided. You had decided years ago and have never made a single comment on here to indicate you are anything other than a complete Eurofanatic. Not surprising given your vested interests in staying in of course.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
Pretending otherwise for the sake of winning an argment is just sad.
And of course yes I have decided to vote OUT no matter what Cameron comes back with. The EU cannot be trusted to keep its promises and Cameron is not asking for anything like a bare minimum needed to make any difference. Even if he gets everything he is asking for it will be no where near enough.
One of the main deterrents to voting for Out is the maniacal tendency of the Europhobes to treat everything from Brussels as an emanation of the antichrist.
It's not so much an evil organisation as an outdated one. The question is whether it can change enough to be worth sticking with, given its current direction. The signs are not promising and I shall have an invidious choice in a couple of years' time.0 -
If the EU shows no interest in reaching a stable accommodation in the EU with states which do not wish to follow EU route A, we should leave and seek an arrangement from the outside. They would be daft to follow such a tack on their own partisan interest, but they seem to be thinking carefully about being daft.Sean_F said:
What might prompt you to vote No?antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
Mr. Antifrank, for zealots, a liberal interpretation of the faith is often considered heresy.0
-
The argument for voting "no" is simple - Cammo's smug face.Sean_F said:
What might prompt you to vote No?antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
The argument for voting "yes" is even simpler - Nigel Farage
0 -
For those who seem to think that I'm performing some kind of volte face, I put this up on pb2 a couple of years ago:
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-eu-and-britain.html0 -
Tories clearly still have big internal problems with Europe. Boris is playing with fire.0
-
I've spotted one - is there a prize?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
I doubt that they will be explicitly spending government money on supporting the campaign one way or the other.Indigo said:
Its becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron admirers on PB that as the Prime Minster of the UK, especially one which has passed laws removing the purdah requirement on the EU referendum, his views are massively important, because several tens on millions of pounds of government advertising will be shouting them from the roof tops. It is disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that the substantial bully pulpit that is Cameron's cannot and will not be used to build a coalition of the great and the good to support his view whatever that turns out to be, and fatuous to suggest that his personal choice is immaterial and no more important than anyone elses.richardDodd said:It is becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron haters on PB that whatever deal he returns with will be presented to the populace..who will then decide..it has nothing whatsoever to do with his personal choice which will amount to one single vote.
The lifting of the purdah is because it would otherwise restrict their ability to comment on anything of significance during the referendum period as almost every piece of government business has a European aspect0 -
Thanks. The economic growth crisis doesn't seem to be going away.antifrank said:For those who seem to think that I'm performing some kind of volte face, I put this up on pb2 a couple of years ago:
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-eu-and-britain.html0 -
That's clearly just a line that your swallowed.Charles said:
I doubt that they will be explicitly spending government money on supporting the campaign one way or the other.Indigo said:
Its becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron admirers on PB that as the Prime Minster of the UK, especially one which has passed laws removing the purdah requirement on the EU referendum, his views are massively important, because several tens on millions of pounds of government advertising will be shouting them from the roof tops. It is disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that the substantial bully pulpit that is Cameron's cannot and will not be used to build a coalition of the great and the good to support his view whatever that turns out to be, and fatuous to suggest that his personal choice is immaterial and no more important than anyone elses.richardDodd said:It is becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron haters on PB that whatever deal he returns with will be presented to the populace..who will then decide..it has nothing whatsoever to do with his personal choice which will amount to one single vote.
The lifting of the purdah is because it would otherwise restrict their ability to comment on anything of significance during the referendum period as almost every piece of government business has a European aspect0 -
Why?SquareRoot said:
What on earth is there to decide. Whatever Dave comes up with , it would be madness to leave the EU.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
There you go... decision made for you.
Britain is a significant global economy, with trading links internationally and a huge base of talented individuals.
Being in the EU has meaningful advantages, but it also has serious costs. The direction of travel is towards more integration of the core Eurozone and, as a result, it is imperative that adequate mechanisms are put in place to protect the interests of the "non-Eurozone" countries.
Failing that, there is a strong argument that we would be better off charting our own future as a friendly but independent partner to the Eurozone.0 -
So, for instance, can you comment on defence policy without a comment on the (idiotic) possibility of a European Army? Or how about foreign affairs without talking about collaboration with the EU? Of DfID while ignoring that several billion of our money is handed out through the EU? Or TTIP negotiations? Or how about the health service without taking into account the passport?Jonathan said:
That's clearly just a line that your swallowed.Charles said:
I doubt that they will be explicitly spending government money on supporting the campaign one way or the other.Indigo said:
Its becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron admirers on PB that as the Prime Minster of the UK, especially one which has passed laws removing the purdah requirement on the EU referendum, his views are massively important, because several tens on millions of pounds of government advertising will be shouting them from the roof tops. It is disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that the substantial bully pulpit that is Cameron's cannot and will not be used to build a coalition of the great and the good to support his view whatever that turns out to be, and fatuous to suggest that his personal choice is immaterial and no more important than anyone elses.richardDodd said:It is becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron haters on PB that whatever deal he returns with will be presented to the populace..who will then decide..it has nothing whatsoever to do with his personal choice which will amount to one single vote.
The lifting of the purdah is because it would otherwise restrict their ability to comment on anything of significance during the referendum period as almost every piece of government business has a European aspect
If the government spend a lot on pro-EU advertising it will undermine the legitimacy of the referendum. The only political advantage of this whole song and dance for Cameron is to put the question to bed - he won't want to undermine its legitimacy.0 -
Go on, point out a Europhobe - someone who has an irrational fear of the EU.logical_song said:
I've spotted one - is there a prize?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
Branson's argument for staying in seems to be based on tax reulations 40 years ago.
0 -
Does anyone have trade data with the EU to hand? I gather there's a Rotterdam effect that skews this too. How does it square with our membership fees? Comparing recent figs would be useful.Charles said:
Why?SquareRoot said:
What on earth is there to decide. Whatever Dave comes up with , it would be madness to leave the EU.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
There you go... decision made for you.
Britain is a significant global economy, with trading links internationally and a huge base of talented individuals.
Being in the EU has meaningful advantages, but it also has serious costs. The direction of travel is towards more integration of the core Eurozone and, as a result, it is imperative that adequate mechanisms are put in place to protect the interests of the "non-Eurozone" countries.
Failing that, there is a strong argument that we would be better off charting our own future as a friendly but independent partner to the Eurozone.0 -
My. Tyndall, that's inaccurate. A europhobe would have an irrational fear of either the euro, or Europe. The EU does not equal Europe, despite what certain ideologically driven numpties would wish to believe.0
-
Sir Richard Branson stressing how important it is Britain stays in the EU on Marr, could be a good leading spokesman for the Yes/In campaign0
-
@BBCBreaking: European Central Bank expected to end emergency lending to Greece later on Sunday, @Peston understands http://t.co/6QzZQUTUto0
-
Quite right. I had intended writing just that and got distracted by giving a dressing down to my 7 year old.Morris_Dancer said:My. Tyndall, that's inaccurate. A europhobe would have an irrational fear of either the euro, or Europe. The EU does not equal Europe, despite what certain ideologically driven numpties would wish to believe.
Still, both EU and Europe the same point applies. Eurosceptics do not have an irrational fear, they simply don't have the blind adherence that most of the europhiles seem to have.0 -
NEVER.. Those who have had to put up with Virgin Media will all want to vote out if my experience was anything to go by. VM didn't give a toss and wouldn't do anything to help. I quit. Branson will never get another penny of mine.HYUFD said:Sir Richard Branson stressing how important it is Britain stays in the EU on Marr, could be a good leading spokesman for the Yes/In campaign
0 -
ECB believed to end Greece's emergency lending today, according to the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-333031050 -
but we wouldn't be a friendly partner. If we left, the loathing and hatred would go on for centuries !!Charles said:
Why?SquareRoot said:
What on earth is there to decide. Whatever Dave comes up with , it would be madness to leave the EU.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
There you go... decision made for you.
Britain is a significant global economy, with trading links internationally and a huge base of talented individuals.
Being in the EU has meaningful advantages, but it also has serious costs. The direction of travel is towards more integration of the core Eurozone and, as a result, it is imperative that adequate mechanisms are put in place to protect the interests of the "non-Eurozone" countries.
Failing that, there is a strong argument that we would be better off charting our own future as a friendly but independent partner to the Eurozone.0 -
That would be a real game-changer. Details are here:felix said:
Greece - two snap opinion polls suggest the Greeks will vote yes to the EU proposal. I suspect Tspiras is finished. Podemos in Spain take note.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/27/us-eurozone-greece-poll-idUSKBN0P70RY20150627
57-29 or 47-33, with the latter question loaded by noting that the consequences of "Yes" would be painful. However, be careful - both polls seem to have been taken before the referendum was announced and Tsipras indicated he'd campaign for "No".
Boris's move seems tactically unwise, and I expect he'll reverse it soon in the usual cloud of bluster. I have form in underestimating him, but I wonder oif he hasn't be over-bought in the sense that people think he's more of a political mastermind than he actually is, based on his ability to beat Ken Livingstone.
0 -
IIRC Virgin bought NTL who had a SHOCKING rep for customer service, and its largely no better years later. No one seems to get more unhappy mentions.SquareRoot said:
NEVER.. Those who have had to put up with Virgin Media will all want to vote out if my experience was anything to go by. VM didn't give a toss and wouldn't do anything to help. I quit. Branson will never get another penny of mine.HYUFD said:Sir Richard Branson stressing how important it is Britain stays in the EU on Marr, could be a good leading spokesman for the Yes/In campaign
0 -
Would you call someone who says "America" when they really mean the USA an "ideologically driven numpty"?Morris_Dancer said:The EU does not equal Europe, despite what certain ideologically driven numpties would wish to believe.
0 -
Er no. He would be a disaster for them given that he has loves the EU so much he moved the IP part of his Virgin empire to Switzerland.HYUFD said:Sir Richard Branson stressing how important it is Britain stays in the EU on Marr, could be a good leading spokesman for the Yes/In campaign
0 -
Boris thinks he's Churchill when he's actually more like Tony Benn without the integrity.0
-
Looking at the questions as set out earlier (if they are correct) then I am amazed anyone would know which way to vote.NickPalmer said:
That would be a real game-changer. Details are here:felix said:
Greece - two snap opinion polls suggest the Greeks will vote yes to the EU proposal. I suspect Tspiras is finished. Podemos in Spain take note.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/27/us-eurozone-greece-poll-idUSKBN0P70RY20150627
57-29 or 47-33, with the latter question loaded by noting that the consequences of "Yes" would be painful. However, be careful - both polls seem to have been taken before the referendum was announced and Tsipras indicated he'd campaign for "No".
Boris's move seems tactically unwise, and I expect he'll reverse it soon in the usual cloud of bluster. I have form in underestimating him, but I wonder oif he hasn't be over-bought in the sense that people think he's more of a political mastermind than he actually is, based on his ability to beat Ken Livingstone.0 -
IIRC, something like 47% of our exports go the EU. We have a substantial trade deficit with EU, and a substantial surplus with Non-EU countriesPlato said:Does anyone have trade data with the EU to hand? I gather there's a Rotterdam effect that skews this too. How does it square with our membership fees? Comparing recent figs would be useful.
Charles said:
Why?SquareRoot said:
What on earth is there to decide. Whatever Dave comes up with , it would be madness to leave the EU.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
There you go... decision made for you.
Britain is a significant global economy, with trading links internationally and a huge base of talented individuals.
Being in the EU has meaningful advantages, but it also has serious costs. The direction of travel is towards more integration of the core Eurozone and, as a result, it is imperative that adequate mechanisms are put in place to protect the interests of the "non-Eurozone" countries.
Failing that, there is a strong argument that we would be better off charting our own future as a friendly but independent partner to the Eurozone.0 -
I know others have answered this but I have to add to how silly it is. I like Cameron and as pm his view on something has even greater weight, and as split as they are he leads as large section of a political tribe which will follow his view closely perhaps despite some misgivings.richardDodd said:It is becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron haters on PB that whatever deal he returns with will be presented to the populace..who will then decide..it has nothing whatsoever to do with his personal choice which will amount to one single vote.
Personally I just don't think he is able to get enough from the other leaders to make it worth it, but others might if they trust him enough.0 -
Thousands of terrified families were flown home from Tunisia yesterday in one of the biggest airlifts ever organised by British tour companies. Wave after wave of empty aircraft were dispatched from the UK in response to pleas by British visitors traumatised by the beach massacre on Friday and desperate to return home to worried loved ones.
Fleets of coaches, some escorted by armed police, ferried them from their hotels to airports in the Sousse region. Departure lounges became so crowded that hundreds of people had to wait outside for their flights to safety.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3141863/Massive-airlift-bring-home-20-000-British-tourists-Tunisia-counsellors-flown-ut-comfort-relatives-dead.html#ixzz3eLOh0LoU
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook0 -
Mr. Thompson, no. That's a different case.0
-
Angus Robertson says a second referendum could be on the cards in the party's manifesto for Holyrood next year if the greater devolved powers promised are not delivered and austerity is imposed on Scotland. He also says the Scotland Bill does not implement all elements of the Smith Commission
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/28/snp-scots-could-still-go-it-alone0 -
Why? Both represent a significant proportion of the continent and have the continent's name in their own name. What's the difference as far as names are concerned?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Thompson, no. That's a different case.
0 -
Firstly, I don't think the Boris story will stand up. Having read my ST there is nothing there that is going to tie his hands. Boris is many things but stupid is not one of them.
What I do think that the story hints at is that there is a frustration with BOO and UKIP and the lack of a credible threat of withdrawal. Since the election (being kind) UKIP have behaved like a bunch of amateurish muppets and the idea that the British public would follow them to the nearest chip shop, let alone out of the EU, looks fantastical.
The recent polling indicating a large majority for In even before the frighteners are brought out has weakened Cameron's hand as well. With the EZ completely absorbed by the Greek tragedy unfolding in Athens Cameron needed something substantive to get the threat of a Brexit up the agenda. He hasn't got it and the opportunity to put our relationship with the EU on a better footing going forward is likely to be lost.
I can well imagine Boris and others coming up with such an analysis. What I cannot imagine for a moment is him throwing away his career in a sacrificial attempt to resolve the problem.0 -
Hah. That is pretty funny, and the crazier Euro phones have been looking for excuses to be angry at the referendum. Personally I'm so sick of arrogant dismissal from Brussels I just think it best we leave.antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
I've never been a VM customer (quite happy with Sky, though customer service is shocking poor "computer says no" until you threaten to quit and then they'll bend over backwards to make you happy). But Virgin Trains are quite pleasant.SquareRoot said:
NEVER.. Those who have had to put up with Virgin Media will all want to vote out if my experience was anything to go by. VM didn't give a toss and wouldn't do anything to help. I quit. Branson will never get another penny of mine.HYUFD said:Sir Richard Branson stressing how important it is Britain stays in the EU on Marr, could be a good leading spokesman for the Yes/In campaign
0 -
The latest balance of payments figures from the Pink Book are for 2013.Plato said:Does anyone have trade data with the EU to hand? I gather there's a Rotterdam effect that skews this too. How does it square with our membership fees? Comparing recent figs would be useful.
Charles said:
Why?SquareRoot said:
What on earth is there to decide. Whatever Dave comes up with , it would be madness to leave the EU.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
There you go... decision made for you.
Britain is a significant global economy, with trading links internationally and a huge base of talented individuals.
Being in the EU has meaningful advantages, but it also has serious costs. The direction of travel is towards more integration of the core Eurozone and, as a result, it is imperative that adequate mechanisms are put in place to protect the interests of the "non-Eurozone" countries.
Failing that, there is a strong argument that we would be better off charting our own future as a friendly but independent partner to the Eurozone.
This gives us a current account deficit with the EU of £102 billion.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_382948.pdf
Outside of a small surplus in the balance of services of £10 billion there are no upsides to our business relationship with the EU.
0 -
If I were less fond of the Union and the No result, I'd happily send the SNPers off to Brussels = a marvellous bit of match-making.kle4 said:
Hah. That is pretty funny, and the crazier Euro phones have been looking for excuses to be angry at the referendum. Personally I'm so sick of arrogant dismissal from Brussels I just think it best we leave.antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
0 -
Mr. Thompson, one's a country. And many ideologically driven supporters of the EU seek to equate it with Europe or 'good Europe'. It's entirely possible to be pro-Europe (and pro-bilateral/multilateral agreements with European countries) whilst being against the EU. Because the EU is not Europe, and Europe is not the EU.0
-
SR/RT Maybe but there is no doubt he is relatively popular with the public as a whole0
-
Bit added to that BBC link:
"Greece will probably have to "announce a bank holiday on Monday, pending the introduction of capital controls", a source told the BBC's Robert Peston."0 -
Yep. The latest figures from 2013 show a Balance of payments surplus with the USA of £45 billion. The EU drags us down and then kicks the life out of us as far as trade and economics are concerned.Sean_F said:
IIRC, something like 47% of our exports go the EU. We have a substantial trade deficit with EU, and a substantial surplus with Non-EU countriesPlato said:Does anyone have trade data with the EU to hand? I gather there's a Rotterdam effect that skews this too. How does it square with our membership fees? Comparing recent figs would be useful.
Charles said:
Why?SquareRoot said:
What on earth is there to decide. Whatever Dave comes up with , it would be madness to leave the EU.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
There you go... decision made for you.
Britain is a significant global economy, with trading links internationally and a huge base of talented individuals.
Being in the EU has meaningful advantages, but it also has serious costs. The direction of travel is towards more integration of the core Eurozone and, as a result, it is imperative that adequate mechanisms are put in place to protect the interests of the "non-Eurozone" countries.
Failing that, there is a strong argument that we would be better off charting our own future as a friendly but independent partner to the Eurozone.0 -
I'm surprised how many on both sides seem so keen to pre-judge any deal before its made or even worse seem to have zero confidence in the ability to of their countrymen to tell the difference.kle4 said:
I know others have answered this but I have to add to how silly it is. I like Cameron and as pm his view on something has even greater weight, and as split as they are he leads as large section of a political tribe which will follow his view closely perhaps despite some misgivings.richardDodd said:It is becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron haters on PB that whatever deal he returns with will be presented to the populace..who will then decide..it has nothing whatsoever to do with his personal choice which will amount to one single vote.
Personally I just don't think he is able to get enough from the other leaders to make it worth it, but others might if they trust him enough.
In this modern era of the internet and 24/7 news etc any deal will be micro-analysed to death. Nobody will be able to pull the wool over the eyes of the public as a whole. If any deal is a sham it will be revealed as such within days not years.0 -
Scott_P said:
@BBCBreaking: European Central Bank expected to end emergency lending to Greece later on Sunday, @Peston understands http://t.co/6QzZQUTUto
Interesting - not at all sure we'd get a different result.HYUFD said:Angus Robertson says a second referendum could be on the cards in the party's manifesto for Holyrood next year if the greater devolved powers promised are not delivered and austerity is imposed on Scotland. He also says the Scotland Bill does not implement all elements of the Smith Commission
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/28/snp-scots-could-still-go-it-alone0 -
He certainly is, however I'd sum up his brand as more Maverick = David vs Goliath. For those of us old enough, we remember Virgin Records, his battles with BA et al.
What is he nowadays? A handsome beardy in a jumper who tries to fly tourists into space.
I think we can mistake his anti-establishment persona with credibility. He's got media chops - but I doubt how many would be too persuaded by him that weren't already Inners.HYUFD said:SR/RT Maybe but there is no doubt he is relatively popular with the public as a whole
0 -
So it'll definitely be in there as any restriction is austerity and no amount of devolved powers will be as 'promised'. Well as popular as snp are right now it makes sense. Go for it now just in case the level of popularity dips from amazingly high to just high in a few years.HYUFD said:Angus Robertson says a second referendum could be on the cards in the party's manifesto for Holyrood next year if the greater devolved powers promised are not delivered and austerity is imposed on Scotland. He also says the Scotland Bill does not implement all elements of the Smith Commission
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/28/snp-scots-could-still-go-it-alone0 -
Why? It has already been made clear that what he is asking for as a maximum is not enough to satisfy even the minimum for most Eurosceptics so why should you be surprised that we reject it? Even the EU was surprised at how little Cameron was asking for after all his big words about substantial renegotiation.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm surprised how many on both sides seem so keen to pre-judge any deal before its made or even worse seem to have zero confidence in the ability to of their countrymen to tell the difference.kle4 said:
I know others have answered this but I have to add to how silly it is. I like Cameron and as pm his view on something has even greater weight, and as split as they are he leads as large section of a political tribe which will follow his view closely perhaps despite some misgivings.richardDodd said:It is becoming rather tedious pointing out to Cameron haters on PB that whatever deal he returns with will be presented to the populace..who will then decide..it has nothing whatsoever to do with his personal choice which will amount to one single vote.
Personally I just don't think he is able to get enough from the other leaders to make it worth it, but others might if they trust him enough.
In this modern era of the internet and 24/7 news etc any deal will be micro-analysed to death. Nobody will be able to pull the wool over the eyes of the public as a whole. If any deal is a sham it will be revealed as such within days not years.
0 -
Bold statement. Please back it up.SquareRoot said:
but we wouldn't be a friendly partner. If we left, the loathing and hatred would go on for centuries !!Charles said:
Why?SquareRoot said:
What on earth is there to decide. Whatever Dave comes up with , it would be madness to leave the EU.antifrank said:
I haven't yet decided which way I'll vote in the referendum. Have you?Richard_Tyndall said:
Not seen any Europhobes around here. Who are you talking about? Mind you plenty of self serving Euro-fanatics aren't there Antifrank. How are your vested interests in the EU these days?antifrank said:
No, I'm more surprised that the Europhobes think that it's somehow unfair that the Prime Minister should be popular and influential, and that this somehow invalidates the referendum.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, it surprises you that many people who voted Conservative are sceptical of the EU?
There you go... decision made for you.
Britain is a significant global economy, with trading links internationally and a huge base of talented individuals.
Being in the EU has meaningful advantages, but it also has serious costs. The direction of travel is towards more integration of the core Eurozone and, as a result, it is imperative that adequate mechanisms are put in place to protect the interests of the "non-Eurozone" countries.
Failing that, there is a strong argument that we would be better off charting our own future as a friendly but independent partner to the Eurozone.
Countries are the definition of pragmatic.0
