Are all the people claiming to be "brought to tears" by Charles Walker out of their minds?
I think they must be holding onions in handkerchiefs to their faces.
They should steer clear of watching Bambi. There'd be slit wrists the minute mummy got shot.
Anorak- how could you mention Bambi's mother? I am still traumatised by Bambi's mother and have never dared to revisit the film since. Ring of Bright Water being the other traumatic experience- I mean who could have made a film that just was so utterly gut wrenching and nihilistic. It makes me well up thinking about the end, and I haven't seen it for 40 years. I wouldn't dare.
I was nearly thrown out of the cinema aged 5 when in a stage whisper that could be heard right around the auditorium I excitedly said: "this is the bit where Bambi's mother dies!".
On a related topic, can i say i met michael martin when he was still the Speaker, he was an utterly charming man, who was both elegant and self deprecating.
Could someone give me a reason why I should care either way about who the Speaker of the House of Commons is?
And politicians wonder why the public think that they're all out of touch...
I doubt the public will care much, it will be all about the co-pilot today
The public won't give a toss about the Bercow affair one way or the other. But Cameron hardly sends his troops away with a spring in their step, and the journos will think less of Cameron and his merry band of Bullingdon lite bullies. Cameron has self harmed today. It may appear to be a scratch, but this is one that could become infected.
Odd that having pummelled Labour yesterday at PMQs they then lift Labour spirits the next day.
Indeed. What a waste of time this whole affair has been. I'm amazed that Crosby allowed it to happen. Another day wasted not talking about Labour's economic incompetence vs Tory growth after Dave's pledge to stand down in 2020.
Do you really think that Crosby controls parliamentary business?
Total miscalculation from the whips office. They must have though they had the numbers. Still, naughty to force it through on the last day, when other members are away.
Are all the people claiming to be "brought to tears" by Charles Walker out of their minds?
I think they must be holding onions in handkerchiefs to their faces.
They should steer clear of watching Bambi. There'd be slit wrists the minute mummy got shot.
Anorak- how could you mention Bambi's mother? I am still traumatised by Bambi's mother and have never dared to revisit the film since. Ring of Bright Water being the other traumatic experience- I mean who could have made a film that just was so utterly gut wrenching and nihilistic. It makes me well up thinking about the end, and I haven't seen it for 40 years. I wouldn't dare.
I was nearly thrown out of the cinema aged 5 when in a stage whisper that could be heard right around the auditorium I excitedly said: "this is the bit where Bambi's mother dies!".
@Richard_Nabavi I know, but I want to hear Mr Palmer's views on it
On what, sorry?
That the largest party should always form part of the Government
Nah. If you get parties A and B who are comparatively and party C which is wildly different (think Front National), you can't reasonably insist that A+B include C.
In Britain, of course, the divisions are not that sharp (said he, polishing his options).
So, for example, if you had parties A, B, C and D that wanted to maintain the United Kingdom, and party E that wanted to destroy it, it is reasonable to expect parties A to D to work together than to boost the anti-UK party? I would agree with that, and hope Labour refuse to work with the SNP should there be a hung parliament.
However the UKIP candidate looks like a loser too: "'Hitler achieved a great deal': Ukip MEP sparks anger as he tells its youth wing to copy Nazi leader Bill Etheridge told Ukip youth conference members to emulate Nazi leader Lauded Hitler as 'the most magnetic and forceful public speaker in history' Comes after the West Midlands MEP published a book celebrating golliwogs"
Odd that having pummelled Labour yesterday at PMQs they then lift Labour spirits the next day.
It's as if they dont really want to win!
I think that quite a few Tory MP's in safe seats would be more than happy for their party to lose the GE.
Very much so. If you arent likely to get a shiny seat in Government, then being in Government is grim. Opposition is easy. I think opposition is really easy for Labour. They can rile, they can express moral outrage with impunity.
Social and economic changes and problems that are largely outside the control of a Government, or to be frank, a government might not be the solution, you can blame on the evil toff tories.
They talk with passion about things the baby eating Tory government is doing, which they voted for in the first place, or that was something that they know they would have done themselves.
You dont need a nuanced answer as to why welfare reform is the right thing to do, but there are a few changes that could be made to alleviate the negative impact. You just shout ban the bedroom tax and sanctions.
You dont need a nuanced answer to the changes in the workplace which have meant that many people going into work after a significant period of economic activity are only getting temporary contracts. Ban zero hour contracts.
Or that in London and a few other areas there is a particular problem caused by increase demand for social housing. Build council houses and its all fatcher's fault.
You can talk about how someone has rickets, or people visiting foodbanks, or homelessness all show that the people in government are evil and nasty. It makes you feel good.
Blair taught Labour that it wasnt good enough about feeling good about criticising others. You have to manup and show people you have the ability to get your hands dirty and take the burden of Government.
Are all the people claiming to be "brought to tears" by Charles Walker out of their minds?
I think they must be holding onions in handkerchiefs to their faces.
They should steer clear of watching Bambi. There'd be slit wrists the minute mummy got shot.
Anorak- how could you mention Bambi's mother? I am still traumatised by Bambi's mother and have never dared to revisit the film since. Ring of Bright Water being the other traumatic experience- I mean who could have made a film that just was so utterly gut wrenching and nihilistic. It makes me well up thinking about the end, and I haven't seen it for 40 years. I wouldn't dare.
I was nearly thrown out of the cinema aged 5 when in a stage whisper that could be heard right around the auditorium I excitedly said: "this is the bit where Bambi's mother dies!".
I had to leave the cinema when I howled and howled with terror at the scene in the Wizard of Oz when the little girl first goes into the forest. To this day, I've never seen the film the whole way through and I can still remember the horror I felt.
However the UKIP candidate looks like a loser too: "'Hitler achieved a great deal': Ukip MEP sparks anger as he tells its youth wing to copy Nazi leader Bill Etheridge told Ukip youth conference members to emulate Nazi leader Lauded Hitler as 'the most magnetic and forceful public speaker in history' Comes after the West Midlands MEP published a book celebrating golliwogs"
Are all the people claiming to be "brought to tears" by Charles Walker out of their minds?
I think they must be holding onions in handkerchiefs to their faces.
They should steer clear of watching Bambi. There'd be slit wrists the minute mummy got shot.
Anorak- how could you mention Bambi's mother? I am still traumatised by Bambi's mother and have never dared to revisit the film since. Ring of Bright Water being the other traumatic experience- I mean who could have made a film that just was so utterly gut wrenching and nihilistic. It makes me well up thinking about the end, and I haven't seen it for 40 years. I wouldn't dare.
I was nearly thrown out of the cinema aged 5 when in a stage whisper that could be heard right around the auditorium I excitedly said: "this is the bit where Bambi's mother dies!".
I had to leave the cinema when I howled and howled with terror at the scene in the Wizard of Oz when the little girl first goes into the forest. To this day, I've never seen the film the whole way through and I can still remember the horror I felt.
I walked out of the cinema after about ten mins when I was five during Superman because it was boring, and have still never watched it
Cried at Watership Down around that time, and Champ
Odd that having pummelled Labour yesterday at PMQs they then lift Labour spirits the next day.
Indeed. What a waste of time this whole affair has been. I'm amazed that Crosby allowed it to happen. Another day wasted not talking about Labour's economic incompetence vs Tory growth after Dave's pledge to stand down in 2020.
Do you really think that Crosby controls parliamentary business?
At this point in the electoral cycle I imagine he has some level of input. If Gove and Hague went rogue today and did this without Crosby I imagine there are going to be a raised voices.
As horrible as it sounds the Tories are lucky that this pilot sent 150 people to their deaths today as that will dominate the new cycles until tonight when it is Dave vs Ed.
However the UKIP candidate looks like a loser too: "'Hitler achieved a great deal': Ukip MEP sparks anger as he tells its youth wing to copy Nazi leader Bill Etheridge told Ukip youth conference members to emulate Nazi leader Lauded Hitler as 'the most magnetic and forceful public speaker in history' Comes after the West Midlands MEP published a book celebrating golliwogs"
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
However the UKIP candidate looks like a loser too: "'Hitler achieved a great deal': Ukip MEP sparks anger as he tells its youth wing to copy Nazi leader Bill Etheridge told Ukip youth conference members to emulate Nazi leader Lauded Hitler as 'the most magnetic and forceful public speaker in history' Comes after the West Midlands MEP published a book celebrating golliwogs"
Are all the people claiming to be "brought to tears" by Charles Walker out of their minds?
I think they must be holding onions in handkerchiefs to their faces.
They should steer clear of watching Bambi. There'd be slit wrists the minute mummy got shot.
Anorak- how could you mention Bambi's mother? I am still traumatised by Bambi's mother and have never dared to revisit the film since. Ring of Bright Water being the other traumatic experience- I mean who could have made a film that just was so utterly gut wrenching and nihilistic. It makes me well up thinking about the end, and I haven't seen it for 40 years. I wouldn't dare.
I was nearly thrown out of the cinema aged 5 when in a stage whisper that could be heard right around the auditorium I excitedly said: "this is the bit where Bambi's mother dies!".
I had to leave the cinema when I howled and howled with terror at the scene in the Wizard of Oz when the little girl first goes into the forest. To this day, I've never seen the film the whole way through and I can still remember the horror I felt.
I like everyone of my generation suffered permanent psychological damage from the memory of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang's 'Child-Catcher'.
The co-pilot of the Germanwings flight that crashed in the French Alps, named as Andreas Lubitz, appeared to want to "destroy the plane", officials said.
Mr Robin said there was "absolute silence in the cockpit" as the pilot fought to re-enter it.
Passengers could be heard screaming just before the crash, he added.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
This is the problem Ian Kershaw comes up against in his biography. The contrast between Hitler's utterly noxious personality and the momentous nature of the events he personally set in train.
A bit like Milton trying to portray Satan in Paradise Lost.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Mr. W, this isn't a matter of legislation, though. If they vote against the Speaker but the Speaker survives, the individuals voting against may find themselves at a disadvantage. Surely that's something you can see?
Perhaps you like to name MP's who have been so disadvantaged since say .... WWII ?
Watching the clip on the BBC news site of the announcement of the result, Bercow's contemptuous stare in the direction of the Government front bench coupled by the menacing licking of his lip was chilling, like something out of The Shining.
He'll be even more unbearable in the next Parliament now.
James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers 2m2 minutes ago Labour sources admit they would not have got MPs back in sufficient numbers to save #Bercow without time from 3 urgent questions he granted
Just read the latest on the Germanwings plane crash, BBC now reporting that the Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane' – Those poor people; the mind boggles as to what motivation was behind such horror.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Balls and Osborne gaming themselves into a real stalemate
I'm amazed that this:
PS It is of course true that Labour has said it would increase the very top rate of income tax from 45% to 50% for the top 1% of earners - those earning more than £150,000 a year. But it is moot whether this will in the long term raise a few billion or just a few hundred million pounds a year, because this group are so skilled at legally avoiding taxes.
Made it into the article. Finally the BBC have recognised that high marginal tax rates are counter productive. It's a shame it is in an article that only anoraks who know this already will read.
James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers 2m2 minutes ago Labour sources admit they would not have got MPs back in sufficient numbers to save #Bercow without time from 3 urgent questions he granted
James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers 2m2 minutes ago Labour sources admit they would not have got MPs back in sufficient numbers to save #Bercow without time from 3 urgent questions he granted
Shenanigans on both sides
Simon Carr @simonsketch 1m1 minute ago Why Labour was so angry, and why John Bercow looked so relieved was because they all knew he couldn't survive a secret vote for re-election.
@simonsketch: Why Labour was so angry, and why John Bercow looked so relieved was because they all knew he couldn't survive a secret vote for re-election.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
However the UKIP candidate looks like a loser too: "'Hitler achieved a great deal': Ukip MEP sparks anger as he tells its youth wing to copy Nazi leader Bill Etheridge told Ukip youth conference members to emulate Nazi leader Lauded Hitler as 'the most magnetic and forceful public speaker in history' Comes after the West Midlands MEP published a book celebrating golliwogs"
A truly dreadful way to finish off a successful Parliament. I really don't know what the Government were thinking about trying to put such an important matter through on the last day.
Bercow is a creep and using the procedure of urgent questions to allow Labour to ingather enough supporters is par for the course. His future is after all what is important (to him).
But if you are going to try underhand tricks to get rid of an irritant for goodness sake make sure they work. Have these lot never read The Prince?
Sad that William Hague ended this way. Deserved better.
Balls and Osborne gaming themselves into a real stalemate
I'm amazed that this:
PS It is of course true that Labour has said it would increase the very top rate of income tax from 45% to 50% for the top 1% of earners - those earning more than £150,000 a year. But it is moot whether this will in the long term raise a few billion or just a few hundred million pounds a year, because this group are so skilled at legally avoiding taxes.
Made it into the article. Finally the BBC have recognised that high marginal tax rates are counter productive. It's a shame it is in an article that only anoraks who know this already will read.
Well - any idea where Labour will get the tens of billions they need to avoid cuts (not to mention the additional £8 billion the NHS is screaming for)? To lose one tax (VAT) is unfortunate, to lose another (NI) smacks of carelessness.
And even if they do - how will they be able to afford the SNP price - £180 billion - that works out at £4.5 billion a vote.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
That assumes global satellite coverage. There are great swathes of the globe which don't receive adequate GPS signals, for example.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
"The captain, who had left the cockpit briefly, appears to have punched in an emergency number into the cockpit door to gain re-entry, but the co-pilot deployed a five-minute override."
Just read the latest on the Germanwings plane crash, BBC now reporting that the Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane' – Those poor people; the mind boggles as to what motivation was behind such horror.
I used to be very stalwart, I didn't even cry at the finale episode of MASH.
Now I cry at TV adverts involving furry quadrupeds. It's rather bizarre, but oddly satisfying.
However, I detest those Starving African Children With Big Eyes and the other charity ones with Limping Donkeys/Serious Voice Over et al - its so so crassly done.
@simonsketch: Why Labour was so angry, and why John Bercow looked so relieved was because they all knew he couldn't survive a secret vote for re-election.
That's the main reason I think he'll be gone within the year.
At the moment people are focusing on the fact he survived the vote (by the smallest of margins) but he effectively, publicly lost the support of a huge swathe of the House today.
Balls and Osborne gaming themselves into a real stalemate
I'm amazed that this:
PS It is of course true that Labour has said it would increase the very top rate of income tax from 45% to 50% for the top 1% of earners - those earning more than £150,000 a year. But it is moot whether this will in the long term raise a few billion or just a few hundred million pounds a year, because this group are so skilled at legally avoiding taxes.
Made it into the article. Finally the BBC have recognised that high marginal tax rates are counter productive. It's a shame it is in an article that only anoraks who know this already will read.
But the solutions to whatever problems we are in surely cant be more taxation? We are already far above what we would normally be in terms of tax take from the economy. But yes, the conservatives will be more happy than labour at having boxed labour in to not increase national insurance.
Gordon Brown increased NI by 10% in 2002 and sold it very successfully as a means to boost nhs spending.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
It's very difficult isn't it - basically you have two systems - one that can never be opened against the wishes of the occupant and one that can always be issued against the wishes of the occupant. No matter what you do you will end up in one of these two configurations.
And at the end of the day, the weak link will always be the human operator (either because they can keep the door shut or force the door open)
James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers 2m2 minutes ago Labour sources admit they would not have got MPs back in sufficient numbers to save #Bercow without time from 3 urgent questions he granted
Shenanigans on both sides
Simon Carr @simonsketch 1m1 minute ago Why Labour was so angry, and why John Bercow looked so relieved was because they all knew he couldn't survive a secret vote for re-election.
23 Conservatives openly voted against the government ensuring the defeat. Would they have done differently in secret?
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
That assumes global satellite coverage. There are great swathes of the globe which don't receive adequate GPS signals, for example.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
I had thought GPS was pretty much anywhere? You are right it would be expensive to put up a big satellite network to allow for constant communications, but if each airline chipped in...
If the control centre could deactivate the lock at any time, I'd imagine the crew would be able to communicate with them at any time.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
If you make it possible for a sane pilot to force his way back into the cockpit controlled by his suicidal co-pilot then you also make it possible for a jihadi terrorist to do the same. There's no perfect system because people are not perfect.
Perhaps the balance is the wrong way round following the 9/11 attacks, but even if the Pilot had gained access to the cockpit he might not have been able to stop the co-pilot from crashing the plane in this instance.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
"The captain, who had left the cockpit briefly, appears to have punched in an emergency number into the cockpit door to gain re-entry, but the co-pilot deployed a five-minute override."
Probably just not enough time before the plane crashes. How absolutely horrifying for those involved.
I used to be very stalwart, I didn't even cry at the finale episode of MASH.
Now I cry at TV adverts involving furry quadrupeds. It's rather bizarre, but oddly satisfying.
However, I detest those Starving African Children With Big Eyes and the other charity ones with Limping Donkeys/Serious Voice Over et al - its so so crassly done.
The Wrath of Khan, I was about six, and I was gutted when Pointy met his maker.
Fifty Shades of Grey made me cry recently, but that was tears of laugher mostly.
Last scene of The Railway Children (the Agutter version) - on the station platform: always has me welling up......
I admit to man-tears at the end of LotR-RotK, the bit where Aragorn tells Bilbo - "You bow for no man", and then bends his knee.
I have got to admit that I have got more lachrymose as I have got older as well.
I still remember being in a cinema as a young child when Bambi's mother became venison. There was stunned silence as 200-300 kids slowly processed what had happened (thank god antifrank wasn't there). Then there was a sob. And another and then all hell broke loose. At the risk of being labelled another serial killer in the making I found the reaction (not the incident itself I hasten to emphasise) quite funny.
I wonder if any film maker for kids would be so brave today?
James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers 2m2 minutes ago Labour sources admit they would not have got MPs back in sufficient numbers to save #Bercow without time from 3 urgent questions he granted
Shenanigans on both sides
Simon Carr @simonsketch 1m1 minute ago Why Labour was so angry, and why John Bercow looked so relieved was because they all knew he couldn't survive a secret vote for re-election.
23 Conservatives openly voted against the government ensuring the defeat. Would they have done differently in secret?
I think not.
I think Peter Bone, Philip Davies and Graham Brady would be very disappointed to have to vote against the Gov't in secret... on anything
Mr. W, have there been any such measures to remove a Speaker? If not, there's no comparison to make.
You miss the point.
Open elections for the Speaker have effectively changed little since WWII and there is no evidence that MP's who voted for other candidates or didn't vote for the Speaker have been disadvantaged .... unless in those immortal words - "you know different?"
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
It's very difficult isn't it - basically you have two systems - one that can never be opened against the wishes of the occupant and one that can always be issued against the wishes of the occupant. No matter what you do you will end up in one of these two configurations.
And at the end of the day, the weak link will always be the human operator (either because they can keep the door shut or force the door open)
Well he probably shouldn't have been left in the cockpit alone. That would have significantly decreased the chances of him succeeding (unless he incapacitated whoever was in there with him). With this, and MH370, I think the airline industry need to think long and hard about constant real-time communication with their airplanes, and having the ability to override certain things (i.e. the door can be opened with two of the three parties agreeing - crew and control centre in the case of a suicidal pilot)
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
If you make it possible for a sane pilot to force his way back into the cockpit controlled by his suicidal co-pilot then you also make it possible for a jihadi terrorist to do the same. There's no perfect system because people are not perfect.
Perhaps the balance is the wrong way round following the 9/11 attacks, but even if the Pilot had gained access to the cockpit he might not have been able to stop the co-pilot from crashing the plane in this instance.
As mentioned earlier, I don't understand why a suicidal pilot would not just point the nose to the ground. Why put it on a long, slow descent?
I'd prefer to think incapacitation, but that cannot explain why the door override was operated. Which cannot be certain at the moment until (and maybe not even then) they get the FDR data.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
If you make it possible for a sane pilot to force his way back into the cockpit controlled by his suicidal co-pilot then you also make it possible for a jihadi terrorist to do the same. There's no perfect system because people are not perfect.
Perhaps the balance is the wrong way round following the 9/11 attacks, but even if the Pilot had gained access to the cockpit he might not have been able to stop the co-pilot from crashing the plane in this instance.
I agree there is a balance. Shame he was left on his own, which I don't think is normal for US airlines.
James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers 2m2 minutes ago Labour sources admit they would not have got MPs back in sufficient numbers to save #Bercow without time from 3 urgent questions he granted
Shenanigans on both sides
Simon Carr @simonsketch 1m1 minute ago Why Labour was so angry, and why John Bercow looked so relieved was because they all knew he couldn't survive a secret vote for re-election.
23 Conservatives openly voted against the government ensuring the defeat. Would they have done differently in secret?
I think not.
I think Peter Bone, Philip Davies and Graham Brady would be very disappointed to have to vote against the Gov't in secret... on anything
Plonkers like this lot and David Davis are why the Coalition has been so essential. If the Tories had won 15 more seats in 2010 Cameron would have been under pressure to go it alone and his life would have been a nightmare.
Unfortunately most of them will be back in the next Parliament and the same problem will apply.
Mr. L, in the first episode of Defenders of the Earth, Flash Gordon's wife gets killed by Ming.
Old cartoon, though more recent than Bambi [and there's a slight cop-out result, with the mother's 'soul' inhabiting the Defenders' computer, if I remember rightly].
James May's Toy Stories covered Airfix models, or something similar, and found the cover art had been ridiculously sanitised in recent years (exploding bombs and engines aflame being airbrushed out).
Balls and Osborne gaming themselves into a real stalemate
I'm amazed that this:
PS It is of course true that Labour has said it would increase the very top rate of income tax from 45% to 50% for the top 1% of earners - those earning more than £150,000 a year. But it is moot whether this will in the long term raise a few billion or just a few hundred million pounds a year, because this group are so skilled at legally avoiding taxes.
Made it into the article. Finally the BBC have recognised that high marginal tax rates are counter productive. It's a shame it is in an article that only anoraks who know this already will read.
Well - any idea where Labour will get the tens of billions they need to avoid cuts (not to mention the additional £8 billion the NHS is screaming for)? To lose one tax (VAT) is unfortunate, to lose another (NI) smacks of carelessness.
And even if they do - how will they be able to afford the SNP price - £180 billion - that works out at £4.5 billion a vote.
By raising taxes you take spending power out of the economy which will hurt everyone. Labour recognise this since they did the opposite before the election by cutting VAT to boost spending (and not definitely not to bribe the electorate) so they must realise that extra taxes cut demand. In the above case it had the effect of bringing spending forward (on top of the govt bringing its own spending forward) so after the election demand fell anyway even as VAT went up.
What is important is to spend what we can afford. Brown increased spending by 50% in real terms between 200 and 2010. We cannot afford that. That is the point of cuts, to remove the structural deficit. The deficits and surpluses of the normal economic cycle have to take care of themselves, although given the size of our previous deficits we would, I suggest if 'prudent', need to run a structural surplus for a time as well.
Mr. L, in the first episode of Defenders of the Earth, Flash Gordon's wife gets killed by Ming.
Old cartoon, though more recent than Bambi [and there's a slight cop-out result, with the mother's 'soul' inhabiting the Defenders' computer, if I remember rightly].
James May's Toy Stories covered Airfix models, or something similar, and found the cover art had been ridiculously sanitised in recent years (exploding bombs and engines aflame being airbrushed out).
Wife? I remember "Flash, Flash, I love you but we only have 24 hours to save the earth."
One of the great lines and so much better than I have a headache.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
That assumes global satellite coverage. There are great swathes of the globe which don't receive adequate GPS signals, for example.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
I had thought GPS was pretty much anywhere?
Weirdly it isn't. The signals tend to be concentrated in areas where air, sea and land traffic is normally routed rather than evenly around the globe. That's why for example the Royal Navy still use traditional methods to navigate, with GPS as a backup rather than the other way around. You'll still find navigators with notebooks and pencil lines on paper charts manoeuvring warships.
Why is CNN broadcasting an internal security video showing the security systems of cockpit doors ????
I mean seriously they just did FFS,!!
WTF?
Stunned
Why shouldn't they?
You can get instructions for how to make any kind of bomb on-line. It's not like a terrorist wouldn't be able to get this information if they wanted it.
Labour will be laughing their socks off knowing he's still in place.
I suspect people (and Bercow himself?) rather over state how much support Bercow has with Labour.
Sure, lefties enjoy the fact the Bercow is Speaker and the Tories hate him. Also, he did largely have Labour to thank for getting the job in the first place, but overall I doubt most people in the Labour Party could really care less whether Bercow or Lindsay Hoyle is in the Chair...
As we saw by the way Brown, when it was expedient, served up Speaker Martin's head on a plate, Labour Party patronage can turn on a sixpence...
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
If you make it possible for a sane pilot to force his way back into the cockpit controlled by his suicidal co-pilot then you also make it possible for a jihadi terrorist to do the same. There's no perfect system because people are not perfect.
Perhaps the balance is the wrong way round following the 9/11 attacks, but even if the Pilot had gained access to the cockpit he might not have been able to stop the co-pilot from crashing the plane in this instance.
As mentioned earlier, I don't understand why a suicidal pilot would not just point the nose to the ground.
I'm not sure fly by wire would allow you to undertake what would be considered an extreme manoeuvre - the flight computer takes over and levels off the aircraft.
You'd think that one of those daft trolleys with enough weight behind it really ought to be able to pop the door. Maybe trickier when the plane is in a steep descent admittedly.
Just a horrible story. I really don't like flying at the best of times.
Mr. 1000, you can find out how to make bombs online. That doesn't mean it's wise, or acceptable, for news organisations to effectively provide a how-to guide for any watching lunatic [some idiot news organisation, I forget which, provided a helpful travel guide to any moron trying to reach ISIS via Turkey a few weeks ago].
WOW..Labour won a major victory in the HOC today.. Did they stop a war..did they stop a hospital closure..did they stop a major tax rise..nooo..apparently they stopped a secret ballot for the Speakers position...A magnificent victory indeed ..a grateful nation should cheer...oh dear..meanwhile some sick effer kills 150 people . Saudi starts a war with its neighbour and Greece is about to walk alone..Good to know that Labour is looking after the nations deepest concerns
You'd think that one of those daft trolleys with enough weight behind it really ought to be able to pop the door. Maybe trickier when the plane is in a steep descent admittedly.
Just a horrible story. I really don't like flying at the best of times.
Some of these cockpit doors are made of Kevlar.
As a very nervous frequent flyer I'm going via ships in future.
Comments
Anyone else sick to death of no-mark tory backbenchers valuing their 15 minutes in the sun more than what's right for their party?
The Wrath of Khan, I was about six, and I was gutted when Pointy met his maker.
Fifty Shades of Grey made me cry recently, but that was tears of laugher mostly.
Not a good show.
Let alone run a country 41 days to EICIPM
Who wants to win in an age where people expect government to do everything?
Isn't that the definition of a soft shite?
Desperate times among some PB Tories methinks.
"'Hitler achieved a great deal': Ukip MEP sparks anger as he tells its youth wing to copy Nazi leader
Bill Etheridge told Ukip youth conference members to emulate Nazi leader
Lauded Hitler as 'the most magnetic and forceful public speaker in history'
Comes after the West Midlands MEP published a book celebrating golliwogs"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2720860/Hitler-achieved-great-deal-Ukip-MEP-sparks-anger-tells-youth-wing-copy-Nazi-leader.html
What are the odds on Labour?
Very much so. If you arent likely to get a shiny seat in Government, then being in Government is grim. Opposition is easy. I think opposition is really easy for Labour. They can rile, they can express moral outrage with impunity.
Social and economic changes and problems that are largely outside the control of a Government, or to be frank, a government might not be the solution, you can blame on the evil toff tories.
They talk with passion about things the baby eating Tory government is doing, which they voted for in the first place, or that was something that they know they would have done themselves.
You dont need a nuanced answer as to why welfare reform is the right thing to do, but there are a few changes that could be made to alleviate the negative impact. You just shout ban the bedroom tax and sanctions.
You dont need a nuanced answer to the changes in the workplace which have meant that many people going into work after a significant period of economic activity are only getting temporary contracts.
Ban zero hour contracts.
Or that in London and a few other areas there is a particular problem caused by increase demand for social housing.
Build council houses and its all fatcher's fault.
You can talk about how someone has rickets, or people visiting foodbanks, or homelessness all show that the people in government are evil and nasty. It makes you feel good.
Blair taught Labour that it wasnt good enough about feeling good about criticising others. You have to manup and show people you have the ability to get your hands dirty and take the burden of Government.
Cried at Watership Down around that time, and Champ
As horrible as it sounds the Tories are lucky that this pilot sent 150 people to their deaths today as that will dominate the new cycles until tonight when it is Dave vs Ed.
Balls and Osborne gaming themselves into a real stalemate
Mr Robin said there was "absolute silence in the cockpit" as the pilot fought to re-enter it.
Passengers could be heard screaming just before the crash, he added.
Why have Osborne and Balls neutered themselves?
Balls, neutered I mean really?
This is the problem Ian Kershaw comes up against in his biography. The contrast between Hitler's utterly noxious personality and the momentous nature of the events he personally set in train.
A bit like Milton trying to portray Satan in Paradise Lost.
He'll be even more unbearable in the next Parliament now.
If only he'd lose his seat...
Labour sources admit they would not have got MPs back in sufficient numbers to save #Bercow without time from 3 urgent questions he granted
Just read the latest on the Germanwings plane crash, BBC now reporting that the Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane' – Those poor people; the mind boggles as to what motivation was behind such horror.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32063587
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france-48.html
PS It is of course true that Labour has said it would increase the very top rate of income tax from 45% to 50% for the top 1% of earners - those earning more than £150,000 a year. But it is moot whether this will in the long term raise a few billion or just a few hundred million pounds a year, because this group are so skilled at legally avoiding taxes.
Made it into the article. Finally the BBC have recognised that high marginal tax rates are counter productive. It's a shame it is in an article that only anoraks who know this already will read.
Why Labour was so angry, and why John Bercow looked so relieved was because they all knew he couldn't survive a secret vote for re-election.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
If you want to find fault, blame the times and not the speaker.
Bercow is a creep and using the procedure of urgent questions to allow Labour to ingather enough supporters is par for the course. His future is after all what is important (to him).
But if you are going to try underhand tricks to get rid of an irritant for goodness sake make sure they work. Have these lot never read The Prince?
Sad that William Hague ended this way. Deserved better.
And even if they do - how will they be able to afford the SNP price - £180 billion - that works out at £4.5 billion a vote.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
"The captain, who had left the cockpit briefly, appears to have punched in an emergency number into the cockpit door to gain re-entry, but the co-pilot deployed a five-minute override."
Now I cry at TV adverts involving furry quadrupeds. It's rather bizarre, but oddly satisfying.
However, I detest those Starving African Children With Big Eyes and the other charity ones with Limping Donkeys/Serious Voice Over et al - its so so crassly done.
At the moment people are focusing on the fact he survived the vote (by the smallest of margins) but he effectively, publicly lost the support of a huge swathe of the House today.
He is in big, big trouble.
Note: The US pulled it's troops out of Yemen a few days ago in another pathetic Obama retreat.
http://news.yahoo.com/four-egypt-warships-enter-suez-en-route-gulf-114057527.html
Gordon Brown increased NI by 10% in 2002 and sold it very successfully as a means to boost nhs spending.
And at the end of the day, the weak link will always be the human operator (either because they can keep the door shut or force the door open)
Jack of Kent (@JackofKent)
26/03/2015 15:13
@tracey_crouch Well done on voting down this grubby motion today: pic.twitter.com/D4bac5xqez
I think not.
If the control centre could deactivate the lock at any time, I'd imagine the crew would be able to communicate with them at any time.
Perhaps the balance is the wrong way round following the 9/11 attacks, but even if the Pilot had gained access to the cockpit he might not have been able to stop the co-pilot from crashing the plane in this instance.
I still remember being in a cinema as a young child when Bambi's mother became venison. There was stunned silence as 200-300 kids slowly processed what had happened (thank god antifrank wasn't there). Then there was a sob. And another and then all hell broke loose. At the risk of being labelled another serial killer in the making I found the reaction (not the incident itself I hasten to emphasise) quite funny.
I wonder if any film maker for kids would be so brave today?
Open elections for the Speaker have effectively changed little since WWII and there is no evidence that MP's who voted for other candidates or didn't vote for the Speaker have been disadvantaged .... unless in those immortal words - "you know different?"
I'd prefer to think incapacitation, but that cannot explain why the door override was operated. Which cannot be certain at the moment until (and maybe not even then) they get the FDR data.
Unfortunately most of them will be back in the next Parliament and the same problem will apply.
Old cartoon, though more recent than Bambi [and there's a slight cop-out result, with the mother's 'soul' inhabiting the Defenders' computer, if I remember rightly].
James May's Toy Stories covered Airfix models, or something similar, and found the cover art had been ridiculously sanitised in recent years (exploding bombs and engines aflame being airbrushed out).
Labour recognise this since they did the opposite before the election by cutting VAT to boost spending (and not definitely not to bribe the electorate) so they must realise that extra taxes cut demand.
In the above case it had the effect of bringing spending forward (on top of the govt bringing its own spending forward) so after the election demand fell anyway even as VAT went up.
What is important is to spend what we can afford. Brown increased spending by 50% in real terms between 200 and 2010. We cannot afford that. That is the point of cuts, to remove the structural deficit. The deficits and surpluses of the normal economic cycle have to take care of themselves, although given the size of our previous deficits we would, I suggest if 'prudent', need to run a structural surplus for a time as well.
Berkow is a Brown stooge put in place to annoy the Tories. But if there is hung parliament the role becomes massively powerful.
Labour will be laughing their socks off knowing he's still in place.
One of the great lines and so much better than I have a headache.
I mean seriously they just did FFS,!!
WTF?
Stunned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMKBQ3uu1Tc
Hmm. It's set in 2015, now I check the Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenders_of_the_Earth
You can get instructions for how to make any kind of bomb on-line. It's not like a terrorist wouldn't be able to get this information if they wanted it.
It's not the only instance of well-intentioned security measures having the wrong effect.
Sure, lefties enjoy the fact the Bercow is Speaker and the Tories hate him. Also, he did largely have Labour to thank for getting the job in the first place, but overall I doubt most people in the Labour Party could really care less whether Bercow or Lindsay Hoyle is in the Chair...
As we saw by the way Brown, when it was expedient, served up Speaker Martin's head on a plate, Labour Party patronage can turn on a sixpence...
Just a horrible story. I really don't like flying at the best of times.
As a very nervous frequent flyer I'm going via ships in future.