Ah, thanks. Yes, I see now. Vote SNP get Tory, and all that. All the same, nonsense or not, if they don't get a majority of seats, which has a non-trivial probability, it does have the further implication which I have outlined - and which is of considerable interest.
It's an interesting suggestion, but you might be over-analysing. I doubt if Labour (or indeed any party) have any clear idea what they would do if there is a very messy outcome. It is true that one plausible possibility would be that Labour might abstain on a confidence vote in order to allow a Conservative minority government to stagger on for a bit, but if they were to do so their primary motivation would be one of timing, i.e. that they thought a later election would be likely to produce a better result for them. Or of course to give themselves time to select a new leader.
Things looking up for UKIP in Richmond? I just received a communication and this is a snippet:
Ukip saturday 28th march
We had a great street stall last week with a lots of people. We saw the greens but no one else. Thank you to all who came. It is very much appreciated.
Sam put in great performances at two hustings this week particularly on Wednesday at the small business forum in kingston hill. Zac goldsmith congratulated her on her speech which was really good and perfect for small businesses. There was a lot of interest afterwards.
This coming saturday 28th we will repeat the street stall at Richmond. We hope again for a big turn out again at the ukip stall in George street. We are next to Santander near the pret coffee shop from 10 am to 12 noon. We get a good reception. Come to the stall on Saturday 28th march even if only for a short time, to support Sam Naz our ukip candidate.
Only if they want to spend the next 5 years on the speaker's shit list. Not going to happen.
"On October 16, 2002, after a well-publicized show election, Iraqi officials declared that Saddam had been re-elected to another seven-year term as President by a 100% unanimous vote of all 11,445,638 eligible Iraqis, eclipsing the 99.96% received in 1995. Outside governments dismissed the vote as lacking credibility."
Just watched Walkers speech. Reports of what Cameron said as well about not missing it for the world etc..
Today's trivial schoolyard stunt really knocks your faith in the competence of your team and for now would even be a wobble for me in calling out Reckless as a TPD.
It's that stupid.
Sack up.
Reckless will always be a TPD.
Not once he loses his seat in May, then he'll be a Lembit Opik.
Things looking up for UKIP in Richmond? I just received a communication and this is a snippet:
Ukip saturday 28th march
We had a great street stall last week with a lots of people. We saw the greens but no one else. Thank you to all who came. It is very much appreciated.
Sam put in great performances at two hustings this week particularly on Wednesday at the small business forum in kingston hill. Zac goldsmith congratulated her on her speech which was really good and perfect for small businesses. There was a lot of interest afterwards.
This coming saturday 28th we will repeat the street stall at Richmond. We hope again for a big turn out again at the ukip stall in George street. We are next to Santander near the pret coffee shop from 10 am to 12 noon. We get a good reception. Come to the stall on Saturday 28th march even if only for a short time, to support Sam Naz our ukip candidate.
There's betting at long odds and then there's betting on UKIP in Richmond Park....
Bercow is strengthened by the support of the House against a government that numerically should have won comfortably.
As PB's voice of the establishment, where did you stand on Speaker Martin being given the boot?
How many wrongs do you reckon make a right, Gin?
Not sure I follow?
Personally I don't really mind Speaker B. I find him a rather amusing little dude. The way he jump's up off his booster cushions to make himself center of attention during pivitol Common's moments never fails to bring a smile.
I didn't realise it wasn't a secret ballot anyway. It should be, and I see no harm in having a vote in an attempt to correct this. Doing it on the last day of the Parliament is a bit odd, but in principle it seems the right thing to do, particularly as it's certain that a sizeable number of the new House will not want Bercow to be Speaker and will shout out against him, forcing a vote.
1. A General Election in the Buckingham constituency and
2. A vote of MPs in the House of Commons when the new parliament sits
The convention is for the Speaker to resign as an MP and go to the Lords on a big pension if not reselected as Speaker. Bercow may or may not follow this convention should he not be re-selected.
The Conservative's problem is that if they can't get a majority for a secret ballot on the choice of Speaker then they are hardley likely to win a vote to remove him in a new parliament with fewer Conservative MPs. This just leaves the option of him not be re-elected as MP for Buckingham.
Ah, thanks. Yes, I see now. Vote SNP get Tory, and all that. All the same, nonsense or not, if they don't get a majority of seats, which has a non-trivial probability, it does have the further implication which I have outlined - and which is of considerable interest.
It's an interesting suggestion, but you might be over-analysing. I doubt if Labour (or indeed any party) have any clear idea what they would do if there is a very messy outcome. It is true that one plausible possibility would be that Labour might abstain on a confidence vote in order to allow a Conservative minority government to stagger on for a bit, but if they were to do so their primary motivation would be one of timing, i.e. that they thought a later election would be likely to produce a better result for them. Or of course to given themselves time to select a new leader.
Many thanks for that. I'm not the only one who has been analysing, over the mark or not, in broadly this way - Mr Murphy's repeated assertions on this subject have been so puzzling of late. It must be said that Labour at Holyrood did not do at all well as the opposition of the SNP minority government - as I recall, their main victory was the self-inflicted (on their Edinburgh Council colleagues) catastrophe of the Edinburgh Trams. The Tories and Greens had far smaller contingents but did a much better job of getting some concessions out of the SNP. Of course, that fed the impression that SLAB would rather do anything than agree with the SNP; but (as far as I know) Mr Murphy was not involved in that approach. It is also unfair to assume that the Westminster contingent would show the same efficacy, or lack of it.
More student union politics today then in the Commons. Thankfully, there were enough grown-ups around to foil what looks to have been a pretty squalid plan.
"But Bercow’s tears should not be ones of unfettered happiness and relief. Today’s debate has thrown into sharp relief just what a divisive speaker he has become, in spite of his good work in empowering backbenchers. The question of whether he has the authority to regulate the House from May onwards will arise very quickly. But today’s debate was not the forum for that question to be raised and has set back the cause of the Speaker’s opponents."
Douglas Carswell (@DouglasCarswell) 26/03/2015 13:58 If coming election is framed as Chaos v Competence choice, not sure which side today's vote puts the current govt
Speaker Martin was awful. Placed by the Labour Party and deserved to be replaced.
Speaker Martin was Bercow is awful. Placed by the Labour Party and deserveds to be replaced.
Some brave Conservatives thought otherwise or the government would have won easily. Huzzah for rebels.
Rubbish, those few Tories just didn't like the way the government brought this legislation. Your support for Bercow is clouding how you see this. He is a bad speaker and Labour put him in place to annoy the Tories in return for them claiming the scalp of Martin after the expenses scandal. It was a petty move then and he is a petty man. They are well suited.
Douglas Carswell (@DouglasCarswell) 26/03/2015 13:58 If coming election is framed as Chaos v Competence choice, not sure which side today's vote puts the current govt
Speaker Martin was awful. Placed by the Labour Party and deserved to be replaced.
Speaker Martin was Bercow is awful. Placed by the Labour Party and deserveds to be replaced.
Some brave Conservatives thought otherwise or the government would have won easily. Huzzah for rebels.
Rubbish, those few Tories just didn't like the way the government brought this legislation. Your support for Bercow is clouding how you see this. He is a bad speaker and Labour put him in place to annoy the Tories in return for them claiming the scalp of Martin after the expenses scandal. It was a petty move then and he is a petty man. They are well suited.
The government are extremely fortunate that the news about the German air-crash will most likely knock the speaker story some way down the running order.
Things looking up for UKIP in Richmond? I just received a communication and this is a snippet:
Ukip saturday 28th march
We had a great street stall last week with a lots of people. We saw the greens but no one else. Thank you to all who came. It is very much appreciated.
Sam put in great performances at two hustings this week particularly on Wednesday at the small business forum in kingston hill. Zac goldsmith congratulated her on her speech which was really good and perfect for small businesses. There was a lot of interest afterwards.
This coming saturday 28th we will repeat the street stall at Richmond. We hope again for a big turn out again at the ukip stall in George street. We are next to Santander near the pret coffee shop from 10 am to 12 noon. We get a good reception. Come to the stall on Saturday 28th march even if only for a short time, to support Sam Naz our ukip candidate.
There's betting at long odds and then there's betting on UKIP in Richmond Park....
I have a considerable sum on Zac Goldsmith at 1/10 on. I suspect he's much shorter now.
1. A General Election in the Buckingham constituency and
2. A vote of MPs in the House of Commons when the new parliament sits
The convention is for the Speaker to resign as an MP and go to the Lords on a big pension if not reselected as Speaker. Bercow may or may not follow this convention should he not be re-selected.
The Conservative's problem is that if they can't get a majority for a secret ballot on the choice of Speaker then they are hardley likely to win a vote to remove him in a new parliament with fewer Conservative MPs. This just leaves the option of him not be re-elected as MP for Buckingham.
The chances of him being re-elected as MP for Buckingham just increased considerably.
Bercow is badly wounded.. franky its a disappointment he did no get booted out.
How is he wounded, he just received the confidence of the house and managed to kick the secret voting into the long grass. He comes out stronger today than before. Without this there was a good chance he may not have survived a regular vote vs a continuation of the coalition, but now he is guaranteed to do so.
@Richard_Nabavi I know, but I want to hear Mr Palmer's views on it
On what, sorry?
That the largest party should always form part of the Government
Nah. If you get parties A and B who are comparatively and party C which is wildly different (think Front National), you can't reasonably insist that A+B include C.
In Britain, of course, the divisions are not that sharp (said he, polishing his options).
Bercow is badly wounded.. franky its a disappointment he did no get booted out.
How is he wounded, he just received the confidence of the house and managed to kick the secret voting into the long grass. He comes out stronger today than before. Without this there was a good chance he may not have survived a regular vote vs a continuation of the coalition, but now he is guaranteed to do so.
Yes, I've come across some absolutely barking posts on PB, but that one really takes the prize!
Mr. W, this isn't a matter of legislation, though. If they vote against the Speaker but the Speaker survives, the individuals voting against may find themselves at a disadvantage. Surely that's something you can see?
What's crazy is that if the current coalition continued and the Lib Dems are now up for removing Bercow after he took the piss out of poor Danny's weird yellow box, they should have just waited until after the election, whipped the vote in favour of Lindsay Hoyle and Bercow is gone. Now no one will want to risk voting against him and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that he stays as speaker.
Couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery this lot.
What a powerful emotional speech. It had Bercow and me in tears.
Hague is lucky that the Government lost today. His reputation may not be as shredded as it might have been had he pushed this through.
I know this sort of stuff is for anoraks but today was such powerful theatre that it might just have some traction. It is very watchable if shared on social media. It can only be negative for the Tories. A big fail. My Tory MP voted against the Government to his credit.
What a powerful emotional speech. It had Bercow and me in tears.
Hague is lucky that the Government lost today. His reputation may not be as shredded as it might have been had he pushed this through.
I know this sort of stuff is for anoraks but today was such powerful theatre that it might just have some traction. It is very watchable if shared on social media. It can only be negative for the Tories. A big fail. My Tory MP voted against the Government to his credit.
I am sure given what has gone on today, Bercow will remain totally impartial and not seek revenge in any way in the forthcoming parliament...
As I said yesterday, if the Tories didn't get this through, it would be egg on face...you would have thought they would have crunched the numbers before such a move to make sure they got it through.
What a powerful emotional speech. It had Bercow and me in tears.
Hague is lucky that the Government lost today. His reputation may not be as shredded as it might have been had he pushed this through.
I know this sort of stuff is for anoraks but today was such powerful theatre that it might just have some traction. It is very watchable if shared on social media. It can only be negative for the Tories. A big fail. My Tory MP voted against the Government to his credit.
Something endearingly British about Walker's speech: 'I'd rather be an honourable fool than a clever man' is very resonant. And as you say it's a very sad way for Hague to go out after an otherwise distinguished parliamentary career.
I am sure given what has gone on today, Bercow will remain totally impartial and not seek revenge in any way in the forthcoming parliament...
As I said yesterday, if the Tories didn't get this through, it would be egg on face...you would have thought they would have crunched the numbers before such a move to make sure they got it through.
I think if it comes down to a close vote on the Queen's speech, Bercow will be assiduously fair. And very technically fair.
Gosh- that speech just brought me to tears. What the hell were Hague, Gove, Osborne and Cameron thinking of? It is the worst kind of playground schoolboy politics. It just shows them to be unpleasant people. And Hague, after years of re-building his stature from the 2001 debacle, as someone who potentially could tower over politics like few others ( I liked him)- he has just blown his legacy. Well done William.
What a powerful emotional speech. It had Bercow and me in tears.
Hague is lucky that the Government lost today. His reputation may not be as shredded as it might have been had he pushed this through.
I know this sort of stuff is for anoraks but today was such powerful theatre that it might just have some traction. It is very watchable if shared on social media. It can only be negative for the Tories. A big fail. My Tory MP voted against the Government to his credit.
Where is the division list ?
Not up yet. Zac Goldsmith made an eloquent speech and said he was voting against the Government on this. That is my source.
I am sure given what has gone on today, Bercow will remain totally impartial and not seek revenge in any way in the forthcoming parliament...
As I said yesterday, if the Tories didn't get this through, it would be egg on face...you would have thought they would have crunched the numbers before such a move to make sure they got it through.
It reminds me of Nixon's farewell speech: "Always remember, others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself."
Great start for the election for Cameron. Sticking his beak into the unsavoury Clarkson affair, the limp wristed budget and now this squalid business with Bercow. Poor leadership, lack of judgment and just plain stupidity- all rolled into one. Good one Cameron.
Odd that having pummelled Labour yesterday at PMQs they then lift Labour spirits the next day.
Indeed. What a waste of time this whole affair has been. I'm amazed that Crosby allowed it to happen. Another day wasted not talking about Labour's economic incompetence vs Tory growth after Dave's pledge to stand down in 2020.
If Bercow's looks could kill the government front bench would be dead meat.
And that sums up perfectly why Bercow is now so unsuited to the role as 'impartial' Speaker.
In the emotion of the moment Bercow IMO deserved his moment after the governments shoddy behaviour.
What "emotion of the moment". All they were asking was to have a secret vote next time around, which a democrat like Bercow should surely support?
Perhaps you didn't watch the debate?
Votes in the HoC should not be secret. I want to know how MP's vote. End of story.
"I want to know how MP's vote. End of story."
The election of the speaker is a very different matter to normal parliamentary business.
Why?
Because they are voting for the person who will be "controlling" the House for the next parliament - who would then know those who voted against him.
If you were a lowly backbencher, would you take the risk of voting against that?
Other normal votes will be along party lines or free votes, and without the risk of affecting the relationship with the Speaker.
I refer the honourable gentleman to my reply to the honourable member @JosiasJessop a few moments ago.
Leave my honourable member out of this! ;-)
I robustly disagree with you on this. One of the reasons we have a secret ballot for elections is because the people we vote in have power over us. Their not knowing which way we voted means they can show no favours or, worse, bear grudges against people who voted against them.
It is the same in the HoC. The speaker wields great power, and this one has sadly shown that he is willing to abuse it in a personally vindictive manner. That is why there needs to be a secret ballot for such things.
Great start for the election for Cameron. Sticking his beak into the unsavoury Clarkson affair, the limp wristed budget and now this squalid business with Bercow. Poor leadership, lack of judgment and just plain stupidity- all rolled into one. Good one Cameron.
And yet despite it all he's still better than Miliband.
Could someone give me a reason why I should care either way about who the Speaker of the House of Commons is?
You shouldn't care, because the Speaker should be scrupulously fair and unbiased, but those are not the times we live in
When I see politicians moved to tears by a speech about Parliamentary procedure, I wonder why they can sit dry-eyed through speeches about child poverty, vicious wars around the world and the blight of ignorance from an underperforming education system.
Still, at least we find out what really matters to them.
Are all the people claiming to be "brought to tears" by Charles Walker out of their minds?
It's quite pathetic, isn't it.
I'm relieved I'm not the only one thinking that. It was mildly moving, and obviously passionate, but reducing grown men to tears?! Sheesh.
It's 'hide half an onion in the hanky' time.
Labour are enjoying the moment - and who wouldn't after the complete and utter spanking Miliband bought upon himself yesterday.
It's a good reminder that the Government doesnt tell parliament what to do. The bigger the majority the more contempt a government normally has for parliament. To be in a coalition and still hold contempt takes some doing.
Are all the people claiming to be "brought to tears" by Charles Walker out of their minds?
I think they must be holding onions in handkerchiefs to their faces.
They should steer clear of watching Bambi. There'd be slit wrists the minute mummy got shot.
Anorak- how could you mention Bambi's mother? I am still traumatised by Bambi's mother and have never dared to revisit the film since. Ring of Bright Water being the other traumatic experience- I mean who could have made a film that just was so utterly gut wrenching and nihilistic. It makes me well up thinking about the end, and I haven't seen it for 40 years. I wouldn't dare.
Comments
Ukip saturday 28th march
We had a great street stall last week with a lots of people. We saw the greens but no one else. Thank you to all who came. It is very much appreciated.
Sam put in great performances at two hustings this week particularly on Wednesday at the small business forum in kingston hill. Zac goldsmith congratulated her on her speech which was really good and perfect for small businesses. There was a lot of interest afterwards.
This coming saturday 28th we will repeat the street stall at Richmond. We hope again for a big turn out again at the ukip stall in George street. We are next to Santander near the pret coffee shop from 10 am to 12 noon. We get a good reception. Come to the stall on Saturday 28th march even if only for a short time, to support Sam Naz our ukip candidate.
"On October 16, 2002, after a well-publicized show election, Iraqi officials declared that Saddam had been re-elected to another seven-year term as President by a 100% unanimous vote of all 11,445,638 eligible Iraqis, eclipsing the 99.96% received in 1995. Outside governments dismissed the vote as lacking credibility."
So expect Ed to soil himself during the debate or Ken Clarke defecting to UKIP.
Personally I don't really mind Speaker B. I find him a rather amusing little dude. The way he jump's up off his booster cushions to make himself center of attention during pivitol Common's moments never fails to bring a smile.
I didn't realise it wasn't a secret ballot anyway. It should be, and I see no harm in having a vote in an attempt to correct this. Doing it on the last day of the Parliament is a bit odd, but in principle it seems the right thing to do, particularly as it's certain that a sizeable number of the new House will not want Bercow to be Speaker and will shout out against him, forcing a vote.
Elvis being found on the moon
Ken Clarke defecting to UKIP &
Alex Salmond becoming next PM
Than backing UKIP in Richmond (Either of them)
Yes there are two:
1. A General Election in the Buckingham constituency and
2. A vote of MPs in the House of Commons when the new parliament sits
The convention is for the Speaker to resign as an MP and go to the Lords on a big pension if not reselected as Speaker. Bercow may or may not follow this convention should he not be re-selected.
The Conservative's problem is that if they can't get a majority for a secret ballot on the choice of Speaker then they are hardley likely to win a vote to remove him in a new parliament with fewer Conservative MPs. This just leaves the option of him not be re-elected as MP for Buckingham.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/03/the-noes-have-it-government-loses-bid-to-topple-john-bercow/
Last paragraph sounds Ominous for Speaker B:
"But Bercow’s tears should not be ones of unfettered happiness and relief. Today’s debate has thrown into sharp relief just what a divisive speaker he has become, in spite of his good work in empowering backbenchers. The question of whether he has the authority to regulate the House from May onwards will arise very quickly. But today’s debate was not the forum for that question to be raised and has set back the cause of the Speaker’s opponents."
26/03/2015 13:58
If coming election is framed as Chaos v Competence choice, not sure which side today's vote puts the current govt
Votes in the HoC should not be secret. I want to know how MP's vote. End of story.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32070175
However you are seriously in error.
"I want to know how MP's vote. End of story."
The election of the speaker is a very different matter to normal parliamentary business.
You only do things like this if you are certain of winning.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32070175
Well, it's a view.
Because they are voting for the person who will be "controlling" the House for the next parliament - who would then know those who voted against him.
If you were a lowly backbencher, would you take the risk of voting against that?
Other normal votes will be along party lines or free votes, and without the risk of affecting the relationship with the Speaker.
I think I might have to expel you from the The Dry but not obsessed by the Gays, Europe & Immigrants New Tory Party if you carry on like this.
Not unless you want to be on the receiving end of a death stare, or 'moment' as Jack put's it, from the 'impartial' Speaker.
You'd never be called to ask a question or make a point in the House.
A parliamentary candidate has been suspended by the Liberal Democrats after he was arrested over child sex abuse allegations.
Jason Zadrozny was standing in the Ashfield and Eastwood constituency in Nottinghamshire.
Police said the allegations related to one child"
In Britain, of course, the divisions are not that sharp (said he, polishing his options).
If MP's are frightened of letting the public know how they vote on any matter in the HoC then they frankly don't deserve to be there.
Rugby's my game.
[You moderated really rude word Piers Morgan clone]
Couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery this lot.
Hague is lucky that the Government lost today. His reputation may not be as shredded as it might have been had he pushed this through.
I know this sort of stuff is for anoraks but today was such powerful theatre that it might just have some traction. It is very watchable if shared on social media. It can only be negative for the Tories. A big fail. My Tory MP voted against the Government to his credit.
As I said yesterday, if the Tories didn't get this through, it would be egg on face...you would have thought they would have crunched the numbers before such a move to make sure they got it through.
The best kind of fair.
@labourwhips: Great moment for retiring Scottish Whip David Hamilton as he reads out result of final vote of Parliament. A Labour win
That is all you need to know about today's vote. Labour cemented their man in place for another session.
And Hague, after years of re-building his stature from the 2001 debacle, as someone who potentially could tower over politics like few others ( I liked him)- he has just blown his legacy. Well done William.
The division list should come up on here I think.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/320/
I suspect most LibDems present voted against the Government except the usual suspects at the top.
A botched job. Pity.
I robustly disagree with you on this. One of the reasons we have a secret ballot for elections is because the people we vote in have power over us. Their not knowing which way we voted means they can show no favours or, worse, bear grudges against people who voted against them.
It is the same in the HoC. The speaker wields great power, and this one has sadly shown that he is willing to abuse it in a personally vindictive manner. That is why there needs to be a secret ballot for such things.
Funny old world.
And politicians wonder why the public think that they're all out of touch...
Labour are enjoying the moment - and who wouldn't after the complete and utter spanking Miliband bought upon himself yesterday.
Still, at least we find out what really matters to them.
Good riddance.
http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/5965/full
Oh sh....
I am still traumatised by Bambi's mother and have never dared to revisit the film since. Ring of Bright Water being the other traumatic experience- I mean who could have made a film that just was so utterly gut wrenching and nihilistic. It makes me well up thinking about the end, and I haven't seen it for 40 years. I wouldn't dare.