However the UKIP candidate looks like a loser too: "'Hitler achieved a great deal': Ukip MEP sparks anger as he tells its youth wing to copy Nazi leader Bill Etheridge told Ukip youth conference members to emulate Nazi leader Lauded Hitler as 'the most magnetic and forceful public speaker in history' Comes after the West Midlands MEP published a book celebrating golliwogs"
What is a smear about that? You do wonder what UKIP politicians are thinking. Did this MEP stop at any stage and think "maybe telling UKIP youth activists to be more like the most hated figure of the last hundreds years is a bad idea"? Mr Etheridge clearly brought this upon himself in an entirely predictable fashion.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
That assumes global satellite coverage. There are great swathes of the globe which don't receive adequate GPS signals, for example.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
I had thought GPS was pretty much anywhere?
Weirdly it isn't. The signals tend to be concentrated in areas where air, sea and land traffic is normally routed rather than evenly around the globe. That's why for example the Royal Navy still use traditional methods to navigate, with GPS as a backup rather than the other way around. You'll still find navigators with notebooks and pencil lines on paper charts manoeuvring warships.
I think Figure 2-1 shows relative precision of the GPS signal, it doesn't look as concentrated as you describe. I think the practice of not using GPS is so that we don't become reliant on it.
I honestly don't know which is funnier, the people driven to tears by Charles Walker's speech or the foaming at the mouth from some of the Bercow haters.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
If you make it possible for a sane pilot to force his way back into the cockpit controlled by his suicidal co-pilot then you also make it possible for a jihadi terrorist to do the same. There's no perfect system because people are not perfect.
Perhaps the balance is the wrong way round following the 9/11 attacks, but even if the Pilot had gained access to the cockpit he might not have been able to stop the co-pilot from crashing the plane in this instance.
As mentioned earlier, I don't understand why a suicidal pilot would not just point the nose to the ground.
I'm not sure fly by wire would allow you to undertake what would be considered an extreme manoeuvre - the flight computer takes over and levels off the aircraft.
Ah, that might explain it. So it was the maximum descent rate the 'puters would let him take without going "ahem, what the heck do you think you're doing?"
However, a suicidal pilot could pull the circuit breakers for loads of systems, or otherwise incapacitate the plane. I don't know enough to say whether the flight mode can be turned off from the flight deck or not.
It's why China Air 006 nearly crashed (well worth a read if you like human factors). Although that's a B747, and Boeing's attitude to computers was, until recently, very different to Airbus's.
Why is CNN broadcasting an internal security video showing the security systems of cockpit doors ????
I mean seriously they just did FFS,!!
WTF?
Stunned
Why shouldn't they?
You can get instructions for how to make any kind of bomb on-line. It's not like a terrorist wouldn't be able to get this information if they wanted it.
Why shouldn't they? We'll........ I am quite Stunned again that someone of your obvious intelligence cannot see why? By the way I am someone who agrees entirely with what you just said but I do know you just don't get it...
Stick to bean counting. You are very very good at that and I do read all you write even if I don't quite understand 25% and have to google. Sorry the depth you go to is not always my bag but like to learn.
Have a very flight. ..... Next time
:-)
Nope I am not security or in anyway connected with security at an airport or other shape form etc. to your obvious next question.
However the UKIP candidate looks like a loser too: "'Hitler achieved a great deal': Ukip MEP sparks anger as he tells its youth wing to copy Nazi leader Bill Etheridge told Ukip youth conference members to emulate Nazi leader Lauded Hitler as 'the most magnetic and forceful public speaker in history' Comes after the West Midlands MEP published a book celebrating golliwogs"
What is a smear about that? You do wonder what UKIP politicians are thinking. Did this MEP stop at any stage and think "maybe telling UKIP youth activists to be more like the most hated figure of the last hundreds years is a bad idea"? Mr Etheridge clearly brought this upon himself in an entirely predictable fashion.
He said Hitler was an effective orator, which seeing as he managed to convince one of the biggest populations in Europe to vote for him, seems to have a basis in truth
People who say "UKIP praise Hitler" on the back of it are just partisan point scoring cretins
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
That assumes global satellite coverage. There are great swathes of the globe which don't receive adequate GPS signals, for example.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
I had thought GPS was pretty much anywhere? You are right it would be expensive to put up a big satellite network to allow for constant communications, but if each airline chipped in...
If the control centre could deactivate the lock at any time, I'd imagine the crew would be able to communicate with them at any time.
Why is CNN broadcasting an internal security video showing the security systems of cockpit doors ????
I mean seriously they just did FFS,!!
WTF?
Stunned
Why shouldn't they?
You can get instructions for how to make any kind of bomb on-line. It's not like a terrorist wouldn't be able to get this information if they wanted it.
Why shouldn't they? We'll........ I am quite Stunned again that someone of your obvious intelligence cannot see why? By the way I am someone who agrees entirely with what you just said but I do know you just don't get it...
Stick to bean counting. You are very very good at that and I do read all you write even if I don't quite understand 25% and have to google. Sorry the depth you go to is not always my bag but like to learn.
Have a very flight. ..... Next time
:-)
Nope I am not security or in anyway connected with security at an airport or other shape form etc. to your obvious next question.
If it is a crap system, journalists should point it out to force them to make a better one.
How must the pilot in the cockpit's mother be feeling right now.
Yes, there was a brief mention that his relatives (who had been with the other relatives in France) had returned home early, presumably told in advance. Horrific for them.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
That assumes global satellite coverage. There are great swathes of the globe which don't receive adequate GPS signals, for example.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
I had thought GPS was pretty much anywhere?
Weirdly it isn't. The signals tend to be concentrated in areas where air, sea and land traffic is normally routed rather than evenly around the globe. That's why for example the Royal Navy still use traditional methods to navigate, with GPS as a backup rather than the other way around. You'll still find navigators with notebooks and pencil lines on paper charts manoeuvring warships.
I'm not sure that's the case, at least generally. From hazy memory, there is 100% satellite coverage of the entire Earth, but accuracy (i.e. number of satellites) is less at higher latitudes.
Good GPS coverage at sea is what caused the lovely Loran-C system to be switched off. They use traditional systems as back-ups.
Michael Crick (@MichaelLCrick) 26/03/2015 16:37 Jeremy Paxman accuses me of "trading down" in move from BBC2 to C4. Anyone know what Paxo is doing this evening? Full doorstep on #C4News
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
That assumes global satellite coverage. There are great swathes of the globe which don't receive adequate GPS signals, for example.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
I had thought GPS was pretty much anywhere?
Weirdly it isn't. The signals tend to be concentrated in areas where air, sea and land traffic is normally routed rather than evenly around the globe. That's why for example the Royal Navy still use traditional methods to navigate, with GPS as a backup rather than the other way around. You'll still find navigators with notebooks and pencil lines on paper charts manoeuvring warships.
I'm not sure that's the case, at least generally. From hazy memory, there is 100% satellite coverage of the entire Earth, but accuracy (i.e. number of satellites) is less at higher latitudes.
Good GPS coverage at sea is what caused the lovely Loran-C system to be switched off. They use traditional systems as back-ups.
Telegraph says the pilot took 6 months off because of depression. Lawyers rubbing hands..
I don't think anyone is rubbing their hands. It is an awful awful story.
What is even odder is that the co-pilot cannot have been certain that he would have had the opportunity to do what he did on this flight. The pilot might not have left the cockpit, for instance. So why not the earlier flights he was on? Or could he have suffered the sort of mental issue where one moment he's fine and the next he isn't?
Are all the people claiming to be "brought to tears" by Charles Walker out of their minds?
I think they must be holding onions in handkerchiefs to their faces.
They should steer clear of watching Bambi. There'd be slit wrists the minute mummy got shot.
Anorak- how could you mention Bambi's mother? I am still traumatised by Bambi's mother and have never dared to revisit the film since. Ring of Bright Water being the other traumatic experience- I mean who could have made a film that just was so utterly gut wrenching and nihilistic. It makes me well up thinking about the end, and I haven't seen it for 40 years. I wouldn't dare.
I was nearly thrown out of the cinema aged 5 when in a stage whisper that could be heard right around the auditorium I excitedly said: "this is the bit where Bambi's mother dies!".
I had to leave the cinema when I howled and howled with terror at the scene in the Wizard of Oz when the little girl first goes into the forest. To this day, I've never seen the film the whole way through and I can still remember the horror I felt.
I like everyone of my generation suffered permanent psychological damage from the memory of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang's 'Child-Catcher'.
Michael Crick (@MichaelLCrick) 26/03/2015 16:37 Jeremy Paxman accuses me of "trading down" in move from BBC2 to C4. Anyone know what Paxo is doing this evening? Full doorstep on #C4News
Telegraph says the pilot took 6 months off because of depression. Lawyers rubbing hands..
I don't think anyone is rubbing their hands. It is an awful awful story.
What is even odder is that the co-pilot cannot have been certain that he would have had the opportunity to do what he did on this flight. The pilot might not have left the cockpit, for instance. So why not the earlier flights he was on? Or could he have suffered the sort of mental issue where one moment he's fine and the next he isn't?
However the UKIP candidate looks like a loser too: "'Hitler achieved a great deal': Ukip MEP sparks anger as he tells its youth wing to copy Nazi leader Bill Etheridge told Ukip youth conference members to emulate Nazi leader Lauded Hitler as 'the most magnetic and forceful public speaker in history' Comes after the West Midlands MEP published a book celebrating golliwogs"
What is a smear about that? You do wonder what UKIP politicians are thinking. Did this MEP stop at any stage and think "maybe telling UKIP youth activists to be more like the most hated figure of the last hundreds years is a bad idea"? Mr Etheridge clearly brought this upon himself in an entirely predictable fashion.
He said Hitler was an effective orator, which seeing as he managed to convince one of the biggest populations in Europe to vote for him, seems to have a basis in truth
People who say "UKIP praise Hitler" on the back of it are just partisan point scoring cretins
He did not just say that Hitler was an effective public speaker. He said that UKIP activists should try to copy his style. Neither the commenter you responded to, nor the Daily Mail article he quoted, said "UKIP praise Hitler", so there was no smearing there.
I saw Bambi at about 4yrs old. That's the point I decided I wasn't going to embarrass myself in public again. I cried my eyes out. I can't even hear April Showers now without getting all overcome...!
I used to be very stalwart, I didn't even cry at the finale episode of MASH.
Now I cry at TV adverts involving furry quadrupeds. It's rather bizarre, but oddly satisfying.
However, I detest those Starving African Children With Big Eyes and the other charity ones with Limping Donkeys/Serious Voice Over et al - its so so crassly done.
The Wrath of Khan, I was about six, and I was gutted when Pointy met his maker.
Fifty Shades of Grey made me cry recently, but that was tears of laugher mostly.
Last scene of The Railway Children (the Agutter version) - on the station platform: always has me welling up......
I admit to man-tears at the end of LotR-RotK, the bit where Aragorn tells Bilbo - "You bow for no man", and then bends his knee.
I have got to admit that I have got more lachrymose as I have got older as well.
I still remember being in a cinema as a young child when Bambi's mother became venison. There was stunned silence as 200-300 kids slowly processed what had happened (thank god antifrank wasn't there). Then there was a sob. And another and then all hell broke loose. At the risk of being labelled another serial killer in the making I found the reaction (not the incident itself I hasten to emphasise) quite funny.
I wonder if any film maker for kids would be so brave today?
But why did the LD Leadership follow the Conservatives in this act of folly?
Exactly, that is what was behind my question.
Madness.
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice. He would also have been distancing his Party a little from the Conservatives at an opportune moment. Instead he becomes complicit, and by implication his Party becomes so too.
But why did the LD Leadership follow the Conservatives in this act of folly?
Exactly, that is what was behind my question.
Madness.
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice. He would also have been distancing his Party a little from the Conservatives at an opportune moment. Instead he becomes complicit, and by implication his Party becomes so too.
He truly deserves to lose his seat.
Presumably, Hague would not have tried to pull off this stunt if Clegg hadn't given his support beforehand.
But why did the LD Leadership follow the Conservatives in this act of folly?
Exactly, that is what was behind my question.
Madness.
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice. He would also have been distancing his Party a little from the Conservatives at an opportune moment. Instead he becomes complicit, and by implication his Party becomes so too.
He truly deserves to lose his seat.
Clegg apologises for raising tuition fees, Ed Davey attacks Labour for saying they'll drop them down to 6k!
Danny helps write budget, next day gets a yellow lunch box out and proposes another whilst he's part of the Gov't himself !
They seem determined to alienate both right and left
However the UKIP candidate looks like a loser too: "'Hitler achieved a great deal': Ukip MEP sparks anger as he tells its youth wing to copy Nazi leader Bill Etheridge told Ukip youth conference members to emulate Nazi leader Lauded Hitler as 'the most magnetic and forceful public speaker in history' Comes after the West Midlands MEP published a book celebrating golliwogs"
What is a smear about that? You do wonder what UKIP politicians are thinking. Did this MEP stop at any stage and think "maybe telling UKIP youth activists to be more like the most hated figure of the last hundreds years is a bad idea"? Mr Etheridge clearly brought this upon himself in an entirely predictable fashion.
He said Hitler was an effective orator, which seeing as he managed to convince one of the biggest populations in Europe to vote for him, seems to have a basis in truth
People who say "UKIP praise Hitler" on the back of it are just partisan point scoring cretins
He did not just say that Hitler was an effective public speaker. He said that UKIP activists should try to copy his style. Neither the commenter you responded to, nor the Daily Mail article he quoted, said "UKIP praise Hitler", so there was no smearing there.
Jesus, if you say so
Could you pop to the shops and get me some sky hooks, tartan paint and a long weight please?
But why did the LD Leadership follow the Conservatives in this act of folly?
Exactly, that is what was behind my question.
Madness.
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice. He would also have been distancing his Party a little from the Conservatives at an opportune moment. Instead he becomes complicit, and by implication his Party becomes so too.
He truly deserves to lose his seat.
Well, the obvious explanation is that the LibDems are as fed up with Bercow as some Conservatives, and perhaps for good reason (I don't particularly have a view on this). Clearly the LibDems wouldn't have been trying to do the Conservatives a favour, so they must have had a strong reason of their own to support the botched coup.
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice.
The Lib Dems were voting in favour of secret ballots. It's arguably the single most democratic thing they have done in the entire session. And are pilloried for it.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
That assumes global satellite coverage. There are great swathes of the globe which don't receive adequate GPS signals, for example.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
I had thought GPS was pretty much anywhere?
Weirdly it isn't. The signals tend to be concentrated in areas where air, sea and land traffic is normally routed rather than evenly around the globe. That's why for example the Royal Navy still use traditional methods to navigate, with GPS as a backup rather than the other way around. You'll still find navigators with notebooks and pencil lines on paper charts manoeuvring warships.
Sorry Watcher Again appreciate your posts but..... You do not know how far you are incorrect on this
Yes I do appreciate the pure navigation that a sextant can bring to your hands and wallow in that ability.,
Please though accept that GPS is also an incorrect term, it is an in-precise system and useful only for getting from home to Tescos express.
Example .... Think of your car sat nav trying to catch up with the car and oh dear.... You just missed the exit on the roundabout
But why did the LD Leadership follow the Conservatives in this act of folly?
Exactly, that is what was behind my question.
Madness.
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice. He would also have been distancing his Party a little from the Conservatives at an opportune moment. Instead he becomes complicit, and by implication his Party becomes so too.
He truly deserves to lose his seat.
Presumably, Hague would not have tried to pull off this stunt if Clegg hadn't given his support beforehand.
You'd imagine so, but it all seems such a shambles it's hard to know what to think.
Only a quick perusal but I counted 4 LibDems in favour of the motion (Brake, Davey, Don Foster and Thurso) and 7 against, namely Bruce, Burt, Hames, Heath, Horwood, Russell and Swinson).
No Labour MP voted in favour: the Tories voting against were Amess, Blackman, Bone, Brady, Conor Burns, Chope, Crouch, Philip Davies, total w@nker David Davis, Gillan, Goldsmith, Gray, Holloway, Jenkin, Lefroy, Leigh, Lewis,, Lopresti, Nutall, The mogg, Shepherd, Walker and Vickers.
I saw Bambi at about 4yrs old. That's the point I decided I wasn't going to embarrass myself in public again. I cried my eyes out. I can't even hear April Showers now without getting all overcome...!
I used to be very stalwart, I didn't even cry at the finale episode of MASH.
Now I cry at TV adverts involving furry quadrupeds. It's rather bizarre, but oddly satisfying.
However, I detest those Starving African Children With Big Eyes and the other charity ones with Limping Donkeys/Serious Voice Over et al - its so so crassly done.
The Wrath of Khan, I was about six, and I was gutted when Pointy met his maker.
Fifty Shades of Grey made me cry recently, but that was tears of laugher mostly.
Last scene of The Railway Children (the Agutter version) - on the station platform: always has me welling up......
I admit to man-tears at the end of LotR-RotK, the bit where Aragorn tells Bilbo - "You bow for no man", and then bends his knee.
I have got to admit that I have got more lachrymose as I have got older as well.
I still remember being in a cinema as a young child when Bambi's mother became venison. There was stunned silence as 200-300 kids slowly processed what had happened (thank god antifrank wasn't there). Then there was a sob. And another and then all hell broke loose. At the risk of being labelled another serial killer in the making I found the reaction (not the incident itself I hasten to emphasise) quite funny.
I wonder if any film maker for kids would be so brave today?
The sequence in UP, near the beginning (when the couple age without realising their dream of visiting paradise falls) is pretty tear jerking. So is the end when the cub is given the 'Ellie award'.
Only a quick perusal but I counted 4 LibDems in favour of the motion (Brake, Davey, Don Foster and Thurso) and 7 against, namely Bruce, Burt, Hames, Heath, Horwood, Russell and Swinson).
No Labour MP voted in favour: the Tories voting against were Amess, Blackman, Bone, Brady, Conor Burns, Chope, Crouch, Philip Davies, total w@nker David Davis, Gillan, Goldsmith, Gray, Holloway, Jenkin, Lefroy, Leigh, Lewis,, Lopresti, Nutall, The mogg, Shepherd, Walker and Vickers.
Were these lists copied verbatim from the parliament website? They don't have a high opinion of David Davis, do they?
Francis Elliott (@elliotttimes) 26/03/2015 16:27 Greg Hands told Cameron he had 234 votes in the bag for #dumpbercow. In the end just 202. Not career enhancing
Only a quick perusal but I counted 4 LibDems in favour of the motion (Brake, Davey, Don Foster and Thurso) and 7 against, namely Bruce, Burt, Hames, Heath, Horwood, Russell and Swinson).
No Labour MP voted in favour: the Tories voting against were Amess, Blackman, Bone, Brady, Conor Burns, Chope, Crouch, Philip Davies, total w@nker David Davis, Gillan, Goldsmith, Gray, Holloway, Jenkin, Lefroy, Leigh, Lewis,, Lopresti, Nutall, The mogg, Shepherd, Walker and Vickers.
Were these lists copied verbatim from the parliament website? They don't have a high opinion of David Davis, do they?
Hansard is my middle name! Oh, and LibDem Steven Williams also voted against.
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
That assumes global satellite coverage. There are great swathes of the globe which don't receive adequate GPS signals, for example.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
I had thought GPS was pretty much anywhere?
Weirdly it isn't. The signals tend to be concentrated in areas where air, sea and land traffic is normally routed rather than evenly around the globe. That's why for example the Royal Navy still use traditional methods to navigate, with GPS as a backup rather than the other way around. You'll still find navigators with notebooks and pencil lines on paper charts manoeuvring warships.
I'm not sure that's the case, at least generally. From hazy memory, there is 100% satellite coverage of the entire Earth, but accuracy (i.e. number of satellites) is less at higher latitudes.
Good GPS coverage at sea is what caused the lovely Loran-C system to be switched off. They use traditional systems as back-ups.
LOL You actually believe what you just posted there? Really .....I mean really.?
Was that directed at me, your quotes seem to have got a bit messed up. I'm not sure what was wrong with my statement. MH370 only had once an hour contact with the Inmarsat network.
Francis Elliott (@elliotttimes) 26/03/2015 16:27 Greg Hands told Cameron he had 234 votes in the bag for #dumpbercow. In the end just 202. Not career enhancing
This has probably been asked before but if the Tory Party is seriously p!$$ed off with Bercow could they not decide to run a more serious candidate against him?
I know a couple of people in the consituency and they are very fed up with being told that as it’s the Speakers seat there’s no real chance for expressing an opinion about the way the country’s run.
Catching up on the airliner story. Absolutely dreadful news (and actually my worst fear about flying). The telegraph graphic suggests there is a keypad which can be used to open the door from the outside. Was this overridden, or did the crew simply forget about it?
It can be overridden from the cockpit for a set time period.
Do you have the specifics on this? The telegraph article was vague and said it only unlocked the door for five seconds. If there is a time limit, you would think they would make it shorter than the time taken to descend from cruising altitude to the ground!
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
If you make it possible for a sane pilot to force his way back into the cockpit controlled by his suicidal co-pilot then you also make it possible for a jihadi terrorist to do the same. There's no perfect system because people are not perfect.
Perhaps the balance is the wrong way round following the 9/11 attacks, but even if the Pilot had gained access to the cockpit he might not have been able to stop the co-pilot from crashing the plane in this instance.
As mentioned earlier, I don't understand why a suicidal pilot would not just point the nose to the ground. Why put it on a long, slow descent?
I'd prefer to think incapacitation, but that cannot explain why the door override was operated. Which cannot be certain at the moment until (and maybe not even then) they get the FDR data.
Suicidal ideation is not an entirely rational thing. From what I know, I think a suicidal person can have a great feeling of relief following a decision to commit suicide, and so he might have been able to enjoy the minutes before the crash on the autopilot descent as a calm before the end.
However, people committing suicide do not normally take more than a hundred other people with them to their deaths, so the suicide explanation doesn't entirely fit, as the French prosecutor said earlier:
"When you commit suicide, you die alone. With 150 on the plane, I wouldn’t call that suicide.”
The absence of an explanation for why he chose to take this action will make it that much harder for the families to deal with. Why? Why that flight?
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice. He would also have been distancing his Party a little from the Conservatives at an opportune moment. Instead he becomes complicit, and by implication his Party becomes so too.
He truly deserves to lose his seat.
Well, putting your antipathy to Nick Clegg to one side, the comments I read from Tom Brake suggested the LD approach was less about Bercow than it was an attempt to reform the method for electing the Speaker.
The line was to support the use of secret ballots which are used as the basis by which Committee Chairmen are chosen. If it's good enough for that why isn't it good enough for the election of the Speaker ?
Piece of totally absolutely useless information alert
I used to navigate container ships across the eastern side of the North Atlantic using the system that the German bombers used to find places like London and Coventry.
Yes it was still issuing signals though not quite a precise as GPS ( home to Tescos) but hey close enough but not as good as my trusty Sextant Sun and my favourite heavenly body Betelgeuse of course.
This has probably been asked before but if the Tory Party is seriously p!$$ed off with Bercow could they not decide to run a more serious candidate against him?
I know a couple of people in the consituency and they are very fed up with being told that as it’s the Speakers seat there’s no real chance for expressing an opinion about the way the country’s run.
Surely the best system would be for the speaker not to be an MP ?
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice.
The Lib Dems were voting in favour of secret ballots. It's arguably the single most democratic thing they have done in the entire session. And are pilloried for it.
You think that's what it was, Scott - love of democracy?
Seem to me that Crick would have been better saying nothing. Paxman bothering to comment on his (Crick's) movements had given him credibility. Criticising Paxman for taking the 'interviewing the PM' gig has to my mind reversed the situation.
Crick's now down there in Peston-land, and I think we'd all agree that such a thing is a horrible fate - apart that is, oddly, for the strange creature from outer space which has recently made the top of Mr Peston's head it's home.
Only a quick perusal but I counted 4 LibDems in favour of the motion (Brake, Davey, Don Foster and Thurso) and 7 against, namely Bruce, Burt, Hames, Heath, Horwood, Russell and Swinson).
No Labour MP voted in favour: the Tories voting against were Amess, Blackman, Bone, Brady, Conor Burns, Chope, Crouch, Philip Davies, total w@nker David Davis, Gillan, Goldsmith, Gray, Holloway, Jenkin, Lefroy, Leigh, Lewis,, Lopresti, Nutall, The mogg, Shepherd, Walker and Vickers.
This is the problem as I see it. With plonkers like these occupying what should be safe Tory seats Cameron needs 347 to have any kind of a majority at all for a Conservative government. It is a huge ask and frankly a lot of Constituency Chairmen and women need to be told to wake up and smell the coffee.
@BBCBreaking: Easyjet to require two crew in cockpit at all times, as UK airlines told to review procedures after Alps crash http://t.co/lZy6KtB3Tx
I can understand why they might do this but to suggest it is a meaningful solution is well, optimistic. Someone who has no remorse about spreading babies and school kids across a mountain is not going to find taking his co-pilot or a stewardess out an insuperable hurdle.
I don't believe in hell but one can certainly see its utility as a depositary for some folk.
Seem to me that Crick would have been better saying nothing. Paxman bothering to comment on his (Crick's) movements had given him credibility. Criticising Paxman for taking the 'interviewing the PM' gig has to my mind reversed the situation.
Crick's now down there in Peston-land, and I think we'd all agree that such a thing is a horrible fate - apart that is, oddly, for the strange creature from outer space which has recently made the top of Mr Peston's head it's home.
Crick must be the first person to move to C4 at a lesser post.
Suicidal ideation is not an entirely rational thing. From what I know, I think a suicidal person can have a great feeling of relief following a decision to commit suicide, and so he might have been able to enjoy the minutes before the crash on the autopilot descent as a calm before the end.
However, people committing suicide do not normally take more than a hundred other people with them to their deaths, so the suicide explanation doesn't entirely fit, as the French prosecutor said earlier:
"When you commit suicide, you die alone. With 150 on the plane, I wouldn’t call that suicide.”
The absence of an explanation for why he chose to take this action will make it that much harder for the families to deal with. Why? Why that flight?
Good points.
It reminds me of the case of Julian Frank and flight 2511, although they never apportioned blame::
@BBCBreaking: Easyjet to require two crew in cockpit at all times, as UK airlines told to review procedures after Alps crash http://t.co/lZy6KtB3Tx
I can understand why they might do this but to suggest it is a meaningful solution is well, optimistic. Someone who has no remorse about spreading babies and school kids across a mountain is not going to find taking his co-pilot or a stewardess out an insuperable hurdle.
I don't believe in hell but one can certainly see its utility as a depositary for some folk.
one would hope the colleague would put up a fight.
Piece of totally absolutely useless information alert
I used to navigate container ships across the eastern side of the North Atlantic using the system that the German bombers used to find places like London and Coventry.
Yes it was still issuing signals though not quite a precise as GPS ( home to Tescos) but hey close enough but not as good as my trusty Sextant Sun and my favourite heavenly body Betelgeuse of course.
You [piers morgan].... who also is going to be guest host on GMB just before the election with the fragrant ms reid.... expect nice cuddly Labour interviews then....
This has probably been asked before but if the Tory Party is seriously p!$$ed off with Bercow could they not decide to run a more serious candidate against him?
I know a couple of people in the consituency and they are very fed up with being told that as it’s the Speakers seat there’s no real chance for expressing an opinion about the way the country’s run.
Surely the best system would be for the speaker not to be an MP ?
I disagree - I doubt anyone who isn't an MP could ever command the respect of MPs. The current system isn't bad and of course it's difficult for Party politicians in the constituency represented by the Speaker - the convention of not challenging the Speaker at a GE is more honoured in the breach than the observance these days.
I recall Bernard Weatherill faced a contensted election in 1987 and Michael Martin was challenged by the SNP so maybe it is time to move on from this notion of not contesting the Speaker's seat and let him or her take their chances under Party colours.
This has probably been asked before but if the Tory Party is seriously p!$$ed off with Bercow could they not decide to run a more serious candidate against him?
I know a couple of people in the consituency and they are very fed up with being told that as it’s the Speakers seat there’s no real chance for expressing an opinion about the way the country’s run.
Surely the best system would be for the speaker not to be an MP ?
I disagree - I doubt anyone who isn't an MP could ever command the respect of MPs. The current system isn't bad and of course it's difficult for Party politicians in the constituency represented by the Speaker - the convention of not challenging the Speaker at a GE is more honoured in the breach than the observance these days.
I recall Bernard Weatherill faced a contensted election in 1987 and Michael Martin was challenged by the SNP so maybe it is time to move on from this notion of not contesting the Speaker's seat and let him or her take their chances under Party colours.
Perhaps the Speaker's seat could elect two members?
However, people committing suicide do not normally take more than a hundred other people with them to their deaths, so the suicide explanation doesn't entirely fit, as the French prosecutor said earlier:
"When you commit suicide, you die alone. With 150 on the plane, I wouldn’t call that suicide.”
@BBCBreaking: Easyjet to require two crew in cockpit at all times, as UK airlines told to review procedures after Alps crash http://t.co/lZy6KtB3Tx
I can understand why they might do this but to suggest it is a meaningful solution is well, optimistic. Someone who has no remorse about spreading babies and school kids across a mountain is not going to find taking his co-pilot or a stewardess out an insuperable hurdle.
I don't believe in hell but one can certainly see its utility as a depositary for some folk.
The fight to "take out" the other crew member may well alert the rest of the crew.
@BBCBreaking: Easyjet to require two crew in cockpit at all times, as UK airlines told to review procedures after Alps crash http://t.co/lZy6KtB3Tx
I can understand why they might do this but to suggest it is a meaningful solution is well, optimistic. Someone who has no remorse about spreading babies and school kids across a mountain is not going to find taking his co-pilot or a stewardess out an insuperable hurdle.
I don't believe in hell but one can certainly see its utility as a depositary for some folk.
It's a human factors issue. However we design physical and technical systems to 'program out' human behaviour, we are intelligent enough to get around them, especially if we know those systems.
Also, more people does not necessarily stop problems. In 1801 a lighthouse keeper died of natural causes, and his co-worker, not wanting to be accused of murdering a man he disliked, kept the body in a box. Some versions of the story said he went mad before he was relieved, and the light was not kept lit.
To get over this problem, from that point on three people had to man a lighthouse, and all was well, and the lights were kept working. Until 99 years later, when all three keepers went missing from the Flannan light:
@BBCBreaking: Easyjet to require two crew in cockpit at all times, as UK airlines told to review procedures after Alps crash http://t.co/lZy6KtB3Tx
I can understand why they might do this but to suggest it is a meaningful solution is well, optimistic. Someone who has no remorse about spreading babies and school kids across a mountain is not going to find taking his co-pilot or a stewardess out an insuperable hurdle.
I don't believe in hell but one can certainly see its utility as a depositary for some folk.
The fight to "take out" the other crew member may well alert the rest of the crew.
I suppose, better than nothing.
Psychiatric testing for aircrew might be better though.
Piece of totally absolutely useless information alert
I used to navigate container ships across the eastern side of the North Atlantic using the system that the German bombers used to find places like London and Coventry.
Yes it was still issuing signals though not quite a precise as GPS ( home to Tescos) but hey close enough but not as good as my trusty Sextant Sun and my favourite heavenly body Betelgeuse of course.
No it wasn't ... Good try though. I like the thinking. I did use Loran A with correction tables and a seriously bad ocillisscope. That was then modified to Loran C with even more fecking tables and numerous codes.
But yes you are on the right track but forget parabolic :-) think beams ......
Does the word parabolic get you modded these days by the way?
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice. He would also have been distancing his Party a little from the Conservatives at an opportune moment. Instead he becomes complicit, and by implication his Party becomes so too.
He truly deserves to lose his seat.
Well, putting your antipathy to Nick Clegg to one side, the comments I read from Tom Brake suggested the LD approach was less about Bercow than it was an attempt to reform the method for electing the Speaker.
The line was to support the use of secret ballots which are used as the basis by which Committee Chairmen are chosen. If it's good enough for that why isn't it good enough for the election of the Speaker ?
There's no antipathy to Clegg here at Castle Punter, Stodge - or least there wasn't until this fiasco.
You do at least present a plausible explanation, which is more than we've heard from the Party so far, but surely if you are correct the Leadership could and should have sounded out its MPs first. It would then have discovered the antipathy running against the idea and quite possibly have avoided appearing complicit in what looks increasingly like a shabby bit of Government politicking.
Sorry Stodge, not Nick's finest hour however you read it.
@BBCBreaking: Easyjet to require two crew in cockpit at all times, as UK airlines told to review procedures after Alps crash http://t.co/lZy6KtB3Tx
I can understand why they might do this but to suggest it is a meaningful solution is well, optimistic. Someone who has no remorse about spreading babies and school kids across a mountain is not going to find taking his co-pilot or a stewardess out an insuperable hurdle.
I don't believe in hell but one can certainly see its utility as a depositary for some folk.
Of course, it doesn't eliminate the possibility of one pilot overcoming the other. But it makes it harder, surely?
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice. He would also have been distancing his Party a little from the Conservatives at an opportune moment. Instead he becomes complicit, and by implication his Party becomes so too.
He truly deserves to lose his seat.
Well, putting your antipathy to Nick Clegg to one side, the comments I read from Tom Brake suggested the LD approach was less about Bercow than it was an attempt to reform the method for electing the Speaker.
The line was to support the use of secret ballots which are used as the basis by which Committee Chairmen are chosen. If it's good enough for that why isn't it good enough for the election of the Speaker ?
There's no antipathy to Clegg here at Castle Punter, Stodge - or least there wasn't until this fiasco.
You do at least present a plausible explanation, which is more than we've heard from the Party so far, but surely if you are correct the Leadership could and should have sounded out its MPs first. It would then have discovered the antipathy running against the idea and quite possibly have avoided appearing complicit in what looks increasingly like a shabby bit of Government politicking.
Sorry Stodge, not Nick's finest hour however you read it.
The problem wasn't the secret ballot. There are arguments for and against. I'm probably in favour if it introduced when the Speaker retires so that it isn't personal though I would like to hear the arguments.
[This is to Stodge] The problem was the underhand method. No notice. Last day of the parliament when many MPs are back in their contituency. The Chief Whip (who probably thought this wheeze up) called a meeting of Tory MPs in Westminster so they would be available. No notice given or consultation with the opposition or even with the Tory Chairman of the Procedure Committee. This is a significant change in procedure that needs the support of the whole house. Instead it was a mean and vindicative attempt at a coup.
I don't know yet which Lib Dems voted for it but I suspect the usual suspects did. I hope Tim Farron didn't or I will have to rethink my membership of the party.
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice. He would also have been distancing his Party a little from the Conservatives at an opportune moment. Instead he becomes complicit, and by implication his Party becomes so too.
He truly deserves to lose his seat.
Well, putting your antipathy to Nick Clegg to one side, the comments I read from Tom Brake suggested the LD approach was less about Bercow than it was an attempt to reform the method for electing the Speaker.
The line was to support the use of secret ballots which are used as the basis by which Committee Chairmen are chosen. If it's good enough for that why isn't it good enough for the election of the Speaker ?
There's no antipathy to Clegg here at Castle Punter, Stodge - or least there wasn't until this fiasco.
You do at least present a plausible explanation, which is more than we've heard from the Party so far, but surely if you are correct the Leadership could and should have sounded out its MPs first. It would then have discovered the antipathy running against the idea and quite possibly have avoided appearing complicit in what looks increasingly like a shabby bit of Government politicking.
Sorry Stodge, not Nick's finest hour however you read it.
The problem wasn't the secret ballot. There are arguments for and against. I'm probably in favour if it introduced when the Speaker retires so that it isn't personal though I would like to hear the arguments.
[This is to Stodge] The problem was the underhand method. No notice. Last day of the parliament when many MPs are back in their contituency. The Chief Whip (who probably thought this wheeze up) called a meeting of Tory MPs in Westminster so they would be available. No notice given or consultation with the opposition or even with the Tory Chairman of the Procedure Committee. This is a significant change in procedure that needs the support of the whole house. Instead it was a mean and vindicative attempt at a coup.
I don't know yet which Lib Dems voted for it but I suspect the usual suspects did. I hope Tim Farron didn't or I will have to rethink my membership of the party.
Comments
I think Figure 2-1 shows relative precision of the GPS signal, it doesn't look as concentrated as you describe. I think the practice of not using GPS is so that we don't become reliant on it.
However, a suicidal pilot could pull the circuit breakers for loads of systems, or otherwise incapacitate the plane. I don't know enough to say whether the flight mode can be turned off from the flight deck or not.
It's why China Air 006 nearly crashed (well worth a read if you like human factors). Although that's a B747, and Boeing's attitude to computers was, until recently, very different to Airbus's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_006
Why shouldn't they? We'll........ I am quite Stunned again that someone of your obvious intelligence cannot see why? By the way I am someone who agrees entirely with what you just said but I do know you just don't get it...
Stick to bean counting. You are very very good at that and I do read all you write even if I don't quite understand 25% and have to google. Sorry the depth you go to is not always my bag but like to learn.
Have a very flight. ..... Next time
:-)
Nope I am not security or in anyway connected with security at an airport or other shape form etc. to your obvious next question.
People who say "UKIP praise Hitler" on the back of it are just partisan point scoring cretins
Good GPS coverage at sea is what caused the lovely Loran-C system to be switched off. They use traditional systems as back-ups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN
But IANAE.
As for satellite comms, Iridum has 100% global coverage.
26/03/2015 16:37
Jeremy Paxman accuses me of "trading down" in move from BBC2 to C4. Anyone know what Paxo is doing this evening? Full doorstep on #C4News
Quite a few soon to be ex Lib Dem MPs against by my calculations.
Bob Russell is the only one who looks safe to me of that lot !
What is even odder is that the co-pilot cannot have been certain that he would have had the opportunity to do what he did on this flight. The pilot might not have left the cockpit, for instance. So why not the earlier flights he was on? Or could he have suffered the sort of mental issue where one moment he's fine and the next he isn't?
Lassie kills me.
Clegg had a chance to speak out against a silly, odious piece of parliamentary malpractice. He would also have been distancing his Party a little from the Conservatives at an opportune moment. Instead he becomes complicit, and by implication his Party becomes so too.
He truly deserves to lose his seat.
Danny helps write budget, next day gets a yellow lunch box out and proposes another whilst he's part of the Gov't himself !
They seem determined to alienate both right and left
Could you pop to the shops and get me some sky hooks, tartan paint and a long weight please?
Again appreciate your posts but..... You do not know how far you are incorrect on this
Yes I do appreciate the pure navigation that a sextant can bring to your hands and wallow in that ability.,
Please though accept that GPS is also an incorrect term, it is an in-precise system and useful only for getting from home to Tescos express.
Example .... Think of your car sat nav trying to catch up with the car and oh dear.... You just missed the exit on the roundabout
;-)
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/416/
Only a quick perusal but I counted 4 LibDems in favour of the motion (Brake, Davey, Don Foster and Thurso) and 7 against, namely Bruce, Burt, Hames, Heath, Horwood, Russell and Swinson).
No Labour MP voted in favour: the Tories voting against were Amess, Blackman, Bone, Brady, Conor Burns, Chope, Crouch, Philip Davies, total w@nker David Davis, Gillan, Goldsmith, Gray, Holloway, Jenkin, Lefroy, Leigh, Lewis,, Lopresti, Nutall, The mogg, Shepherd, Walker and Vickers.
26/03/2015 16:27
Greg Hands told Cameron he had 234 votes in the bag for #dumpbercow. In the end just 202. Not career enhancing
Thanks. I had thought there was this kind of mechanism on a couple of threads ago.
This is the thought of thing that should be able to be overridden somehow, perhaps via the satellite connection to the plane (although issues of hacking there).
That assumes global satellite coverage. There are great swathes of the globe which don't receive adequate GPS signals, for example.
And how would the airline control centre know to deactivate the door lock?
I had thought GPS was pretty much anywhere?
Weirdly it isn't. The signals tend to be concentrated in areas where air, sea and land traffic is normally routed rather than evenly around the globe. That's why for example the Royal Navy still use traditional methods to navigate, with GPS as a backup rather than the other way around. You'll still find navigators with notebooks and pencil lines on paper charts manoeuvring warships.
I'm not sure that's the case, at least generally. From hazy memory, there is 100% satellite coverage of the entire Earth, but accuracy (i.e. number of satellites) is less at higher latitudes.
Good GPS coverage at sea is what caused the lovely Loran-C system to be switched off. They use traditional systems as back-ups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN
But IANAE.
As for satellite comms, Iridum has 100% global coverage.
Airlines are just to cheap to pay for it! Instead opting for the once-an-hour approach.
LOL
You actually believe what you just posted there? Really .....I mean really.?
I know a couple of people in the consituency and they are very fed up with being told that as it’s the Speakers seat there’s no real chance for expressing an opinion about the way the country’s run.
However, people committing suicide do not normally take more than a hundred other people with them to their deaths, so the suicide explanation doesn't entirely fit, as the French prosecutor said earlier:
"When you commit suicide, you die alone. With 150 on the plane, I wouldn’t call that suicide.”
The absence of an explanation for why he chose to take this action will make it that much harder for the families to deal with. Why? Why that flight?
The line was to support the use of secret ballots which are used as the basis by which Committee Chairmen are chosen. If it's good enough for that why isn't it good enough for the election of the Speaker ?
I used to navigate container ships across the eastern side of the North Atlantic using the system that the German bombers used to find places like London and Coventry.
Yes it was still issuing signals though not quite a precise as GPS ( home to Tescos) but hey close enough but not as good as my trusty Sextant Sun and my favourite heavenly body Betelgeuse of course.
Crick's now down there in Peston-land, and I think we'd all agree that such a thing is a horrible fate - apart that is, oddly, for the strange creature from outer space which has recently made the top of Mr Peston's head it's home.
http://bit.ly/1BtFt76
(Edward Reckless that is)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/urine-bottle
I don't believe in hell but one can certainly see its utility as a depositary for some folk.
One of my friend's message me that exact message, I got all excited for a moment.
It reminds me of the case of Julian Frank and flight 2511, although they never apportioned blame::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_Flight_2511
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN
I thought I had kept my dislike well hidden.
Not saying it's a silver bullet, but having someone else in the cockpit will diminish risk.
I recall Bernard Weatherill faced a contensted election in 1987 and Michael Martin was challenged by the SNP so maybe it is time to move on from this notion of not contesting the Speaker's seat and let him or her take their chances under Party colours.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-32074921
The fight to "take out" the other crew member may well alert the rest of the crew.
Also, more people does not necessarily stop problems. In 1801 a lighthouse keeper died of natural causes, and his co-worker, not wanting to be accused of murdering a man he disliked, kept the body in a box. Some versions of the story said he went mad before he was relieved, and the light was not kept lit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalls_Lighthouse
To get over this problem, from that point on three people had to man a lighthouse, and all was well, and the lights were kept working. Until 99 years later, when all three keepers went missing from the Flannan light:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flannan_Isles#Mystery_of_1900
Psychiatric testing for aircrew might be better though.
But yes you are on the right track but forget parabolic :-) think beams ......
Does the word parabolic get you modded these days by the way?
You do at least present a plausible explanation, which is more than we've heard from the Party so far, but surely if you are correct the Leadership could and should have sounded out its MPs first. It would then have discovered the antipathy running against the idea and quite possibly have avoided appearing complicit in what looks increasingly like a shabby bit of Government politicking.
Sorry Stodge, not Nick's finest hour however you read it.
[This is to Stodge] The problem was the underhand method. No notice. Last day of the parliament when many MPs are back in their contituency. The Chief Whip (who probably thought this wheeze up) called a meeting of Tory MPs in Westminster so they would be available. No notice given or consultation with the opposition or even with the Tory Chairman of the Procedure Committee. This is a significant change in procedure that needs the support of the whole house. Instead it was a mean and vindicative attempt at a coup.
I don't know yet which Lib Dems voted for it but I suspect the usual suspects did. I hope Tim Farron didn't or I will have to rethink my membership of the party.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/416/
After a quick scan I can't see any LibDems in the AYEs - not Clegg, not Alexander. So I take back what I said about the usual suspects.