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Focusing on one poll earns you a deserved obloquy – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,269
edited 7:18PM in General
Focusing on one poll earns you a deserved obloquy – politicalbetting.com

Our latest voting intention sees cross over. Labour move ahead by 4. Their first lead since March 2025 & highest share since Nov 24? LAB 28% (+4)?? REF 24% (-2)?? CON 22% (nc)?? LIB DEM 12% (+1)?? GREEN 8% (-3)?? SNP 2% (nc)N = 2061| Dates 24-27/7| Change w 22/7

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,245
    Afternoon
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,833
    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

  • eekeek Posts: 34,795
    edited 2:18PM
    I think we forget that most people don't care about politics so outside an election it can take weeks / months for events to actually impact polls.

    For instance I do think a lot of people don't yet know how shady Farage's money is and SKS isn't good enough Green vote now has a reason to return back to Labour..
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,682
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,172

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    It seems that when you have a new PM it is a good time to fly kites.

    Though "no plans" covers a lot of sins. If he said he was going to scrap stamp duty it might cause a temporary housing market collapse.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,682

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    Kite-flying, as expected. Not all necessarily flown by No.10 (or No.10 North), but from people who want to bounce No. 10 into backing something.

    August will be full of such examples.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,826
    Are any of you young? Probably not, buy anyway...

    https://bsky.app/profile/ucl-targ.bsky.social/post/3mrn3bqov322k

    Participants Needed:
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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,682
    Crossover between Ref and Con would be more significant than an initial bump for Lab, welcome though the latter will definitely be for the government.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,245
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    Or did he, leaving it briefly rudderless ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,245
    edited 2:23PM

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    I think they suddenly realised it would kill the housing market stone dead for months, before the new legislation came in.

    Back to the drawing board.

    The discussion isn't wasted as I expect they might still try to bring it in at some point. But they'll have to work out what to do about the transition period.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,747

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    Yeah, because it would be the housing market equivalent of the months before the Reeves budget, and would crash any investment in the sector as everyone waits for the announcement.

    Even flying the kite has probably made people who were thinking of moving think twice for a year or two, especially if there’s going to be a stamp duty bill involved.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,795
    edited 2:27PM
    Compare and contrast C5 Boris Johnson documentary 'Into Ukraine’s kill zone' with Andy Burnham's latest social media influencer PR campaign to highlight his local man from Manchester where he plans to hold forth with a No10 of the North at great added cost to taxpayer and make his Cabinet turn up there on a Friday when they should be in London working as Ministers or doing their other day job as MPs in their own constituencies across UK!

    Andy Burnham will host President Zelensky at No10, with him portraying himself as a local Manchester lad and DJ as the former actor and comedian Zelensky had a crash course on becoming a President in a now war torn country invaded by Russia for a second time and is leading that country which is now been under constant daily attack since then with whole cities which have been decimated by that invasion.

    Now I was no a fan of Boris Johnson and I didn't vote for him in the Conservative leadership contest, but to give him credit for his biggest legacy and that was his unconditional support before and after the Russian invasion of Ukraine. He took all the right decisions when he realised due to UK intelligence that there was going to be an imminent invasion of Ukraine by Russia and he instigated some incredible vital military support in the run up to the invasion.

    I followed flightrader24 closely in the six weeks leading up to the invasion and I noted the constant RAF flights in and out of Kyiv in the build up to the invasion where we made a real effort to support Ukraine's build up of their defences while too many of our European neighbours were caught napping and didn't believe it would happen so didn't do nearly enough to step up and support them at that time. But on this occasion both US and UK military intelligence called it right when other EU/NATO countries got it wrong.

    I am going to make a prediction, Burnham won't win the next GE for the Labour party and for the simple fact that the UK economy will implode domestically and neither he or his government will turn out to be fit for purpose to deal with either the domestic or the global issues we currently face and in large part it will be due to dissent on his backbenches no matter how big the Labour majority is as Westminster, Starmer has already learnt the hard way!

    Both Johnson and Burnham are quirky maverick politicians who were too quick in rewarding their supporters with key Cabinet posts due to loyalty rather than merit, but when the going gets tough even with a large majority it will be interesting to see if Burnham gets the chance to make the right call on the timing of the next GE. He can't make big changes to last Labour manifesto without calling another GE to get his own mandate to do this. If he thinks the large majority of MPs he inherited are going to be like herding cats, that is going to be nothing compared to trying to herd the current disgruntled electorate in the direction of voting for another Labour majority if he gets badly wrong.



  • CiceroCicero Posts: 4,549
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,065
    kle4 said:

    Crossover between Ref and Con would be more significant than an initial bump for Lab, welcome though the latter will definitely be for the government.

    Patience, padawan....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,065
    Reform, the Greens and the LibDems all need new leaders.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,809
    edited 2:31PM
    The main swing seems to be from Green to Labour as MiC shows, that is what has given Burnham a Labour lead with the pollster today and is also shown in other polls.

    Reform are also down a little since Burnham entered No10, the Tories and LDs little changed. Indeed the Reform lead over the Tories has been slashed to almost nothing, so Kemi might have something to thank him for
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,682

    Reform, the Greens and the LibDems all need new leaders.

    The Greens are still riding high on Polanskimania (even if their polling is not), he's going nowhere. Davey has been an MP for a long time (with a break), and they got a very great result for their polling in 2024, so bowing out may be in his interest as it will be hard to repeat.

    I cannot even picture who would lead Reform other than Farage - I cannot imagine the Tory also-rans would be happy to go back to Tice.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,912

    Are any of you young? Probably not, buy anyway...

    https://bsky.app/profile/ucl-targ.bsky.social/post/3mrn3bqov322k

    Participants Needed:
    Aged 18–24, living in the UK, and gamble at least once per month?
    Take part in a 30-minute interview exploring young adults' experiences with gambling and receive a £10 voucher.

    More information here:
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    Is it a £10 Betfair voucher?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,340
    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,833
    HYUFD said:

    The main swing seems to be from Green to Labour as MiC shows, that is what has given Burnham a Labour lead with the pollster today and is also shown in other polls.

    Reform are also down a little since Burnham entered No10, the Tories and LDs little changed. Indeed the Reform lead over the Tories has been slashed to almost nothing, so Kemi might have something to thank him for

    It only takes a third of reform to switch to Kemi to get her to 30% on that poll
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,946
    I agree with the caution, but TSE is misunderestimating the significance of the MiC poll. The most obvious characteristic of polls since May 2025 has been the consistent message that Reform is in the lead. If you take away a couple of very occasional Trajectory Partnership polls the message has been amazingly consistent, even taking account of outliers.

    This one may be an outlier, and it may be a brief bounce. But it may both or neither. What it is, is extraordinarily timely and, if an outlier, rather co-incidental.

    All polls await the next one. This one, as far as it goes, tends to provide evidence to confirm the thesis that Reform is finished and Labour have handed themselves an opportunity after two years of dry desert. This is not trivial, either politically or for betting purposes.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,116
    edited 2:42PM
    Seeing the Greens on 8% in a poll is a beautiful sight. Well done Burnham (non-ironically/sarcastically).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,065
    Sandpit said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    Yeah, because it would be the housing market equivalent of the months before the Reeves budget, and would crash any investment in the sector as everyone waits for the announcement.

    Even flying the kite has probably made people who were thinking of moving think twice for a year or two, especially if there’s going to be a stamp duty bill involved.
    Was talking to an estate agent about this. It absolutley has. (Reeves killed the market for about 5 months.)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,826
    There's a man opposite me on the Tube leafing through about £500+, mostly in £50 notes, leaving some of it on the seat beside him as he counts. Which goes to show (a) cash isn't dead, and (b) how safe Sadiq Khan's London is
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,833
    algarkirk said:

    I agree with the caution, but TSE is misunderestimating the significance of the MiC poll. The most obvious characteristic of polls since May 2025 has been the consistent message that Reform is in the lead. If you take away a couple of very occasional Trajectory Partnership polls the message has been amazingly consistent, even taking account of outliers.

    This one may be an outlier, and it may be a brief bounce. But it may both or neither. What it is, is extraordinarily timely and, if an outlier, rather co-incidental.

    All polls await the next one. This one, as far as it goes, tends to provide evidence to confirm the thesis that Reform is finished and Labour have handed themselves an opportunity after two years of dry desert. This is not trivial, either politically or for betting purposes.

    Reform are not finished yet notwithstanding that I wish they were
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,826
    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Andrew Jackson?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,340

    There's a man opposite me on the Tube leafing through about £500+, mostly in £50 notes, leaving some of it on the seat beside him as he counts. Which goes to show (a) cash isn't dead, and (b) how safe Sadiq Khan's London is

    Or that there really are some dumbarses in London.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,596
    algarkirk said:

    I agree with the caution, but TSE is misunderestimating the significance of the MiC poll. The most obvious characteristic of polls since May 2025 has been the consistent message that Reform is in the lead. If you take away a couple of very occasional Trajectory Partnership polls the message has been amazingly consistent, even taking account of outliers.

    This one may be an outlier, and it may be a brief bounce. But it may both or neither. What it is, is extraordinarily timely and, if an outlier, rather co-incidental.

    All polls await the next one. This one, as far as it goes, tends to provide evidence to confirm the thesis that Reform is finished and Labour have handed themselves an opportunity after two years of dry desert. This is not trivial, either politically or for betting purposes.

    Burnham had (and has) a series of goals to getting to win the next election.

    Getting back into parliament was one. Then the leadership. Getting a poll bounce to put Labour back in contention is another one.

    Next up is holding that bounce until the big announcement of his plans.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 130,020
    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
    I give Nixon credit for resigning and also losing the 1960 election with honour.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,809
    edited 2:49PM

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
    I give Nixon credit for resigning and also losing the 1960 election with honour.
    He also established diplomatic relations with China, established the EPA and negotiated Salt 1 with the USSR and the Paris Peace talks over Vietnam and desegregated southern schools.

    Nixon was also probably the highest IQ US President there has been since WW2 for all his faults
  • RobDRobD Posts: 61,204

    There's a man opposite me on the Tube leafing through about £500+, mostly in £50 notes, leaving some of it on the seat beside him as he counts. Which goes to show (a) cash isn't dead, and (b) how safe Sadiq Khan's London is

    However, the fact you are commenting on it suggests it is not normal.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,116

    There's a man opposite me on the Tube leafing through about £500+, mostly in £50 notes, leaving some of it on the seat beside him as he counts. Which goes to show (a) cash isn't dead, and (b) how safe Sadiq Khan's London is

    I already knew both of those things, but interesting anyway.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,116

    There's a man opposite me on the Tube leafing through about £500+, mostly in £50 notes, leaving some of it on the seat beside him as he counts. Which goes to show (a) cash isn't dead, and (b) how safe Sadiq Khan's London is

    I already knew both of those things, but interesting anyway.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,719
    edited 3:03PM

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    The announcement may be the result of the discussion on the previous thread.
    (e - typo)
  • eekeek Posts: 34,795

    There's a man opposite me on the Tube leafing through about £500+, mostly in £50 notes, leaving some of it on the seat beside him as he counts. Which goes to show (a) cash isn't dead, and (b) how safe Sadiq Khan's London is


    The bit that surprises me is the empty seat
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,340
    eek said:

    There's a man opposite me on the Tube leafing through about £500+, mostly in £50 notes, leaving some of it on the seat beside him as he counts. Which goes to show (a) cash isn't dead, and (b) how safe Sadiq Khan's London is


    The bit that surprises me is the empty seat
    It's mid afternoon in July. Why would that be surprising?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 130,020

    There's a man opposite me on the Tube leafing through about £500+, mostly in £50 notes, leaving some of it on the seat beside him as he counts. Which goes to show (a) cash isn't dead, and (b) how safe Sadiq Khan's London is

    Somebody is about to

    1) Do an awful lot of cocaine

    and/or

    2) Spend a lot of time with a hooker.

    FYI, further proof that Rupert Lowe is unfit to be an MP.

    To help proper small businesses, use cash.

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/2081422488265756965
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,826
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    There's a man opposite me on the Tube leafing through about £500+, mostly in £50 notes, leaving some of it on the seat beside him as he counts. Which goes to show (a) cash isn't dead, and (b) how safe Sadiq Khan's London is


    The bit that surprises me is the empty seat
    It's mid afternoon in July. Why would that be surprising?
    And a Monday. No-one goes into the office on a Monday!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,245
    Sandpit said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    Yeah, because it would be the housing market equivalent of the months before the Reeves budget, and would crash any investment in the sector as everyone waits for the announcement.

    Even flying the kite has probably made people who were thinking of moving think twice for a year or two, especially if there’s going to be a stamp duty bill involved.
    Prediction - they will do some form of social care before the next election, and this will be pushed into the next parliament (assuming they can get reelected).
    Working out how you might managed a transition would be a big part of it, and that's not something you could do in a rush. In comparison, before vs after is a much smaller problem.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 37,571

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    Not necessarily wasted... I expect our debate will provide input for the policymakers in No 10.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,245

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Andrew Jackson?
    Gets extra negative marks for being Trump's favourite president.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,833

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    Not necessarily wasted... I expect our debate will provide input for the policymakers in No 10.
    What it does show is how market sensitive these ideas can be

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,340
    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Andrew Jackson?
    Gets extra negative marks for being Trump's favourite president.
    Why? His tariff policies, his slaving or his view that the constitution applied to other people rather than him?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,659

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    Not necessarily wasted... I expect our debate will provide input for the policymakers in No 10.
    Perhaps they are checking their kite flying responses here on PB.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,245
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
    I give Nixon credit for resigning and also losing the 1960 election with honour.
    He also established diplomatic relations with China, established the EPA and negotiated Salt 1 with the USSR and the Paris Peace talks over Vietnam and desegregated southern schools.

    Nixon was also probably the highest IQ US President there has been since WW2 for all his faults
    GOP president, certainly.

    Carter (businessman and nuclear engineer) Clinton (Rhodes scholar) and Obama are somewhere up there.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,465

    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    There's a man opposite me on the Tube leafing through about £500+, mostly in £50 notes, leaving some of it on the seat beside him as he counts. Which goes to show (a) cash isn't dead, and (b) how safe Sadiq Khan's London is


    The bit that surprises me is the empty seat
    It's mid afternoon in July. Why would that be surprising?
    And a Monday. No-one goes into the office on a Monday!
    Shows how things have changed in

    Sandpit said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    Yeah, because it would be the housing market equivalent of the months before the Reeves budget, and would crash any investment in the sector as everyone waits for the announcement.

    Even flying the kite has probably made people who were thinking of moving think twice for a year or two, especially if there’s going to be a stamp duty bill involved.
    Was talking to an estate agent about this. It absolutley has. (Reeves killed the market for about 5 months.)
    Trump's ME debacle resulting in economic chaos and interest rate rises is probably more of a factor than Reeves.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,130
    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
    Interesting think exercise. We all know the industrial scale bad stuff about Trump, but as a tonic so to speak name one good thing that Trump has done. Anything at all?

    Because Nixon and Harding were awful presidents but they also had achievements - Harding in getting federal finances under control and limited civil rights; Nixon - sex equality, EPA and arms control.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 41,116
    "FIFA president Gianni Infantino has said critics of the World Cup were "consumed by hate", accusing them of spreading "false rumours" and obsessing over "strange disciplinary rulings"."

    https://news.sky.com/story/world-cup-critics-consumed-by-hate-fifas-gianni-infantino-says-13567364
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 91,245
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Andrew Jackson?
    Gets extra negative marks for being Trump's favourite president.
    Why? His tariff policies, his slaving or his view that the constitution applied to other people rather than him?
    Yes.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,181
    Did we do the Prime Ministerial ranking of pub snacks? I missed it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0_iOV-Jo-4

    Wot no Dry Roast?
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,617
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
    Interesting think exercise. We all know the industrial scale bad stuff about Trump, but as a tonic so to speak name one good thing that Trump has done. Anything at all?

    Because Nixon and Harding were awful presidents but they also had achievements - Harding in getting federal finances under control and limited civil rights; Nixon - sex equality, EPA and arms control.
    The 2017 TCJA tax reforms were pretty good for the USA. Crap for the rest of us, and more of a GOP than Trump project, but happened under his watch.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,998
    eek said:

    I think we forget that most people don't care about politics so outside an election it can take weeks / months for events to actually impact polls.

    For instance I do think a lot of people don't yet know how shady Farage's money is and SKS isn't good enough Green vote now has a reason to return back to Labour..

    We always forget this. It would be interesting to see in a random poll how many people think Starmer is still PM.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,946

    algarkirk said:

    I agree with the caution, but TSE is misunderestimating the significance of the MiC poll. The most obvious characteristic of polls since May 2025 has been the consistent message that Reform is in the lead. If you take away a couple of very occasional Trajectory Partnership polls the message has been amazingly consistent, even taking account of outliers.

    This one may be an outlier, and it may be a brief bounce. But it may both or neither. What it is, is extraordinarily timely and, if an outlier, rather co-incidental.

    All polls await the next one. This one, as far as it goes, tends to provide evidence to confirm the thesis that Reform is finished and Labour have handed themselves an opportunity after two years of dry desert. This is not trivial, either politically or for betting purposes.

    Reform are not finished yet notwithstanding that I wish they were
    Maybe. But I suspect the accumulation of difficulties means that this particularly unpleasant outbreak of blackshortery is on the way out.

    Factors to weigh:

    Labour have got their act together, and in tennis terms, are on serve until the next election. Opposition generally is amazingly short of ideas, and being in government with the right leader can be a plus.

    Polling. Reform's trend is ghastly.

    The people, the leaders and their friends and what they get up to. The dodgy plutocrats.

    The upper limit of their possible voter base.

    The comedy by-election. and the previous by-election fails.

    The £5million, and Farage exposed as one who dishes it out but can't take it.

    The split between the welfarist Clacton pensioner voter relying on the state, and the libertarian wealthy who run the show, and the useless buffoons at local political level.

    Tories look as if they will neither collapse, nor triumph. The right of centre is split in contesting the same seats. The Labour/LD split is across different seats.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,795

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    Not necessarily wasted... I expect our debate will provide input for the policymakers in No 10.
    The one thing I would like to see No 10 and No 11 announce is that they will not be leaking any budget news before the budget itself.

    And anyone who does leak will be subject to prosecution under the official secrets act.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,912
    eek said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    Not necessarily wasted... I expect our debate will provide input for the policymakers in No 10.
    The one thing I would like to see No 10 and No 11 announce is that they will not be leaking any budget news before the budget itself.

    And anyone who does leak will be subject to prosecution under the official secrets act.
    I heard a leak about exactly that!
  • eekeek Posts: 34,795
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    I agree with the caution, but TSE is misunderestimating the significance of the MiC poll. The most obvious characteristic of polls since May 2025 has been the consistent message that Reform is in the lead. If you take away a couple of very occasional Trajectory Partnership polls the message has been amazingly consistent, even taking account of outliers.

    This one may be an outlier, and it may be a brief bounce. But it may both or neither. What it is, is extraordinarily timely and, if an outlier, rather co-incidental.

    All polls await the next one. This one, as far as it goes, tends to provide evidence to confirm the thesis that Reform is finished and Labour have handed themselves an opportunity after two years of dry desert. This is not trivial, either politically or for betting purposes.

    Reform are not finished yet notwithstanding that I wish they were
    Maybe. But I suspect the accumulation of difficulties means that this particularly unpleasant outbreak of blackshortery is on the way out.

    Factors to weigh:

    Labour have got their act together, and in tennis terms, are on serve until the next election. Opposition generally is amazingly short of ideas, and being in government with the right leader can be a plus.

    Polling. Reform's trend is ghastly.

    The people, the leaders and their friends and what they get up to. The dodgy plutocrats.

    The upper limit of their possible voter base.

    The comedy by-election. and the previous by-election fails.

    The £5million, and Farage exposed as one who dishes it out but can't take it.

    The split between the welfarist Clacton pensioner voter relying on the state, and the libertarian wealthy who run the show, and the useless buffoons at local political level.

    Tories look as if they will neither collapse, nor triumph. The right of centre is split in contesting the same seats. The Labour/LD split is across different seats.
    Round here the former Tory MP will give Reform a good run for the money - but that will just mean our not so great Labour MP will win as the Reform / Tories split the vote..
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,833
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    I agree with the caution, but TSE is misunderestimating the significance of the MiC poll. The most obvious characteristic of polls since May 2025 has been the consistent message that Reform is in the lead. If you take away a couple of very occasional Trajectory Partnership polls the message has been amazingly consistent, even taking account of outliers.

    This one may be an outlier, and it may be a brief bounce. But it may both or neither. What it is, is extraordinarily timely and, if an outlier, rather co-incidental.

    All polls await the next one. This one, as far as it goes, tends to provide evidence to confirm the thesis that Reform is finished and Labour have handed themselves an opportunity after two years of dry desert. This is not trivial, either politically or for betting purposes.

    Reform are not finished yet notwithstanding that I wish they were
    Maybe. But I suspect the accumulation of difficulties means that this particularly unpleasant outbreak of blackshortery is on the way out.

    Factors to weigh:

    Labour have got their act together, and in tennis terms, are on serve until the next election. Opposition generally is amazingly short of ideas, and being in government with the right leader can be a plus.

    Polling. Reform's trend is ghastly.

    The people, the leaders and their friends and what they get up to. The dodgy plutocrats.

    The upper limit of their possible voter base.

    The comedy by-election. and the previous by-election fails.

    The £5million, and Farage exposed as one who dishes it out but can't take it.

    The split between the welfarist Clacton pensioner voter relying on the state, and the libertarian wealthy who run the show, and the useless buffoons at local political level.

    Tories look as if they will neither collapse, nor triumph. The right of centre is split in contesting the same seats. The Labour/LD split is across different seats.
    I expect over the next 3 years for politics to revert to Labour v Conservatives as both reform and greens subside

    On this recent poll conservatives need just one third of reform to achieve 30%
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,492
    Trump: "stupidity always brings LOSING & DEATH!"
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,181
    MattW said:

    Did we do the Prime Ministerial ranking of pub snacks? I missed it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0_iOV-Jo-4

    Wot no Dry Roast?

    Sorry - wrong link:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P_NAYxEAcY
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,396
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
    Interesting think exercise. We all know the industrial scale bad stuff about Trump, but as a tonic so to speak name one good thing that Trump has done. Anything at all?

    Because Nixon and Harding were awful presidents but they also had achievements - Harding in getting federal finances under control and limited civil rights; Nixon - sex equality, EPA and arms control.
    Also peace with China and keeping a wedge between China and USSR

    (Parenthetically, if you haven't seen Oliver Stones "Nixon", it's well worth a watch)

    https://youtu.be/j9iY2lxEZfw?si=EsWoDSkAgKKf1Rm3
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_(film)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,340

    Trump: "stupidity always brings LOSING & DEATH!"

    That must be the oddest suicide note in history, but if he follows through rather than TACOs as usual I am sure we will overlook that.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 20,130
    MelonB said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
    Interesting think exercise. We all know the industrial scale bad stuff about Trump, but as a tonic so to speak name one good thing that Trump has done. Anything at all?

    Because Nixon and Harding were awful presidents but they also had achievements - Harding in getting federal finances under control and limited civil rights; Nixon - sex equality, EPA and arms control.
    The 2017 TCJA tax reforms were pretty good for the USA. Crap for the rest of us, and more of a GOP than Trump project, but happened under his watch.
    Increased inequality and loads unlimited trillions onto the US federal debt. Maybe put it down as a mixed achievement?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,713
    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Andrew Jackson?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,874
    Obloquy: are there any other examples in the English languages of a consonant following a 'qu'?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,835
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
    Interesting think exercise. We all know the industrial scale bad stuff about Trump, but as a tonic so to speak name one good thing that Trump has done. Anything at all?

    Because Nixon and Harding were awful presidents but they also had achievements - Harding in getting federal finances under control and limited civil rights; Nixon - sex equality, EPA and arms control.
    Closing the southern border after the Biden free-for-all? I've heard a few Trump haters say that was a fix that needed doing.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,647
    edited 3:48PM

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,835
    Cookie said:

    Obloquy: are there any other examples in the English languages of a consonant following a 'qu'?

    soliloquy?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 51,641
    Andy_JS said:

    "FIFA president Gianni Infantino has said critics of the World Cup were "consumed by hate", accusing them of spreading "false rumours" and obsessing over "strange disciplinary rulings"."

    https://news.sky.com/story/world-cup-critics-consumed-by-hate-fifas-gianni-infantino-says-13567364

    I wasn't consumed by hate until the last 20 mins against Argentina.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,340

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
    Interesting think exercise. We all know the industrial scale bad stuff about Trump, but as a tonic so to speak name one good thing that Trump has done. Anything at all?

    Because Nixon and Harding were awful presidents but they also had achievements - Harding in getting federal finances under control and limited civil rights; Nixon - sex equality, EPA and arms control.
    Closing the southern border after the Biden free-for-all? I've heard a few Trump haters say that was a fix that needed doing.
    Since Trump had been moving heaven and earth to keep it open to campaign on Biden's failed immigration policies, including supporting the blocking of border patrol staff by razor wire, I don't think that quite works.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,946
    Cookie said:

    Obloquy: are there any other examples in the English languages of a consonant following a 'qu'?

    Quy near Cambridge. However the 'y' may be called a consonant, but often functions as a vowel, as here, where it is a long 'e'. In 'Quy' it functions as a long 'i'.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,100
    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    That will help the housing market!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,065
    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    Worst of all worlds then.

    Wankers.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,795
    Andy_JS said:

    "FIFA president Gianni Infantino has said critics of the World Cup were "consumed by hate", accusing them of spreading "false rumours" and obsessing over "strange disciplinary rulings"."

    https://news.sky.com/story/world-cup-critics-consumed-by-hate-fifas-gianni-infantino-says-13567364

    So he admits that Folarin Balogun's reinstatement was strange - it's something because the rest of the world thought it was dodgy as f**k
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 130,020
    edited 4:02PM
    Labour draws level with Reform after Burnham's takeover

    Labour has drawn level with Reform UK in polling following the takeover of Andy Burnham as party leader and prime minister.

    A survey carried out by YouGov on behalf of Sky News and The Times shows the government drawing level with Nigel Farage's party.

    Reform has dominated public opinion for a significant chunk of this parliament.

    Today's results come as Labour gained a slight boost after Burnham came to power, and Farage's party fell in popularity.

    It is the first time that Labour has been in a position other than behind Reform UK since 14 April 2025.

    The results were as follows:



  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,833

    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    Worst of all worlds then.

    Wankers.
    If you want to spook the market cause uncertainty then

    Burnham was clear just now he is not scrapping stamp duty
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,682
    Andy_JS said:

    "FIFA president Gianni Infantino has said critics of the World Cup were "consumed by hate", accusing them of spreading "false rumours" and obsessing over "strange disciplinary rulings"."

    https://news.sky.com/story/world-cup-critics-consumed-by-hate-fifas-gianni-infantino-says-13567364

    He and Fifa are institutionally corrupt, and his Trump bootlicking was just the embarrassing cherry on the cake. If he didn't want to be hated he didn't have to work at Fifa at all.

    The world cup itself was fine
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 61,065

    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    Worst of all worlds then.

    Wankers.
    If you want to spook the market cause uncertainty then

    Burnham was clear just now he is not scrapping stamp duty
    I thought his messaging was supposed to be so much better than Starmer's?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,647

    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    Worst of all worlds then.

    Wankers.
    If you want to spook the market cause uncertainty then

    Burnham was clear just now he is not scrapping stamp duty
    Did you read the link I just posted?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,319
    edited 4:17PM
    The Burnham Bounce is on.

    Think Labour will have a sustained, solid, 10% lead by September... But will it all fall apart in the autumn, like El Gord's did?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,902
    Afternoon all :)

    The "split" (Con-Ref vs Lab,LD,Green) not much changed at 46-48 so the country nicely split, polarised, divided (or add any other suitable word).

    The social care debate it seems is already about who will pay for it rather than what the shape of the new system will be. Let's not forget the current system is funded by local authorities so there will be considerable financial changes/challenges IF the new system is to be funded centrally and authorities have to sacrifice 60-70% of their budget (so much for devolution).

    Once again, I raise the banner for both social care for children and for family carers - this has to be a comprehensive offering covering care in all its form, not just residential care for the elderly and the financial obligations/responsibilties of the family need to be clearly laid out in terms of assets, charges on property and future inheritance issues.

    Another aspect is the blocking of hospital beds by elderly patients requiring respite care in a residential facility rather than hospital care - we need a care system which frees up hospital space and increases residential care home capacity.

    The problem selling all this is not everyone will need or get care - some will require it for many years, others may never need it.

    The argument for some form of insurance to cover care hits that obstacle, barrier, iceberg (or add any other suitable word).
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 8,124
    There seem to be many on here who believe, or just parrot, that Kemi is anti human rights and anti the environment, because she wants out of the ECHR and Net Zero

    Are the ECHR and Net Zero the only ways to get human rights and green policies (obviously unconnected to Green policies)?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,647

    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    Worst of all worlds then.

    Wankers.
    If you want to spook the market cause uncertainty then

    Burnham was clear just now he is not scrapping stamp duty
    I thought his messaging was supposed to be so much better than Starmer's?
    The confusion in messaging is mostly in Big G's head.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,647

    There seem to be many on here who believe, or just parrot, that Kemi is anti human rights and anti the environment, because she wants out of the ECHR and Net Zero

    Are the ECHR and Net Zero the only ways to get human rights and green policies (obviously unconnected to Green policies)?

    Okay, what are her human rights and green (lower case 'g') policies?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,473

    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    Worst of all worlds then.

    Wankers.
    Really you can't expect 2 taxes (maybe more - business rates?) to be scrapped and replaced by a new one within a year, what planet do you live on? In any case Burnham has said he considers himself bound by Labour's manifesto so it would presumably be for after an election
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,319

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    He wouldn't be able to do anything as radical as that without having a general election first.

  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,361
    GIN1138 said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    He wouldn't be able to do anything as radical as that without having a general election first.

    Following the precedent of Major and Heseltine, who held a general election before introducing council tax?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,340
    GIN1138 said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    He wouldn't be able to do anything as radical as that without having a general election first.

    Yes he would. Parliament is sovereign.

    In fact, he would be far better off doing it well in advance in a general election in hope of the benefits smothering the controversies by the time the votes were cast. The other way around, as Theresa May and Stanley Baldwin could explain to you, tends to be sub-optimal in electoral terms.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,827
    Interesting.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,658
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    📰 'Andy Burnham needs to stop talking about Thatcher', according to Rishi Sunak in July 2026.

    🗞️ 'I will be the heir to Margaret Thatcher': 'I am a Thatcherite, I am running as a Thatcherite and I will govern as a Thatcherite,' according to Rishi Sunak in July 2022.

    https://x.com/exPremiers/status/2081304230724239792

    It's impossible to avoid speaking about Thatcher. More than any other politician since Atlee she is responsible for the way the country is now (for good or ill). The core of political debate is whether you accept the Thatcher dispensation or you don't.
    The Left still hate Thatcher because she pointed out the impracticalities of all they held dear.

    Then fixed them.
    I'm not at all convinced Burnham hates Thatcher; I certainly don't.
    But she made an awful lot of mistakes we've never acknowledged.

    It's an easy cop out to dismiss criticism as irrational hate.
    Let's be genrous and say you are highly unusual on the Left in not blaming the ills of the Universe on Thtacher.

    What I heard from Burnham last week didn't suggest he was a paid up member of the Maggie fan club!
    I think it's perfectly possible to dislike large parts of Thatcher's political and economic legacy without hating the woman herself. For my part I think there was much to admire about Thatcher as well as much to dislike. Moreover, even if you might have thought her prognosis of the UK's problems in the 1970s and her solutions were correct at the time it doesn't imply that the UK's current problems necessarily share the same source or are amenable to the same solutions.
    The more you read up on macroeconomic policy through that era (for example cf. the tyranny of nostalgia) the more you realise that that Tory government didn’t understand what it was doing, and insofar as it didn’t, didn’t care about the consequences. They inherited some favourable winds - notably, North Sea Oil - but rather than exercise the wisdom of the Norwegians, didn’t invest this but instead blew it on tax cuts for the rich. There were undoubtedly some issues outstanding from the 1970s that were resolved by the Thatcher government’s blunt instruments, but in the round they left us with the poisoned chalice with which we now struggle. With hindsight, Blair should have been braver in recognising her toxic legacy rather than seeking to absorb and build upon it.
    Why would he? By 1997 the UK had low inflation, low unemployment, few strikes and strong growth. Foot and Kinnock twice had both been defeated strongly opposing Thatcherism so Blair had to accept much of it.

    Even now Burnham's repudiating Thatcherism still only gets Labour to 28% at best, with the divide on the Thatcherite right between Tories and Reform gifting Labour a poll lead
    Isn't the term 'Thatcherism' being used as cover for imprecision of thought? Which bits, what policies, which outcomes, what alternatives, how best to deal next with what might be a better discussion.

    Mrs T, like all PMs from Attlee was implementing post WWII social democracy in a particular way significant for the times, and imperfectly. Burnham suggests (and no-one suggests) serious derogation from social democracy. He is neither a socialist nor a libertarian.

    There are, it seems to me two deep questions: Is the social democrat deal of 1945 and onwards deliverable in any form?

    If it is, then how. If it isn't, what would be the next national deal after the last 80 years.

    Burnham's answer is obvious: continue and extend the social democratic deal; evidence - his concern for social care as a function of the state.

    What I've learned from my observation of politics is that Thatcherism means 'what I currently am doing' for some people on the right and no more, no less.

    Sure, it can probably be actually defined, but like any loose term with the passage of time it has become a couple of basic ideological points and some slogans.
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Every major US ally polled - and a majority of the US - sees the US under Trump as a force for bad in the world.

    THREAD/ A major new YouGov study in 7 countries examines how people see the US, NATO, and global power, threats and alliances
    https://x.com/YouGov/status/2081682684787532007

    Well, he is.
    The worst President in American history and the worst man to be President in American history.
    No one will live up the legacy of William Henry Harrison, who could definitively state he left the country in just as good a state as it was when he took up office.
    31 days in office... which is why he is usually not on the list of Presidential rankings. After Trump in last place, I guess Buchanan and Harding fight it out for the also ran of worst American Presidents.
    Poor old Nixon, not even considered the worst President.
    Interesting think exercise. We all know the industrial scale bad stuff about Trump, but as a tonic so to speak name one good thing that Trump has done. Anything at all?

    Because Nixon and Harding were awful presidents but they also had achievements - Harding in getting federal finances under control and limited civil rights; Nixon - sex equality, EPA and arms control.
    Trump is reasonably good at identifying long term problems:

    The USA's trade deficit, weak border control, freeloading of other NATO countries.

    Trump's problems include his solutions generally being misconceived and incompetently applied.

    Together with all the self-pitying, uncouth, thuggish, corrupt behaviour with negative effects on both short and long term.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,340

    Interesting.

    That must be the result of @bondegezou mentioning cash...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,833
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    Worst of all worlds then.

    Wankers.
    If you want to spook the market cause uncertainty then

    Burnham was clear just now he is not scrapping stamp duty
    Did you read the link I just posted?
    Yes
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,946

    There seem to be many on here who believe, or just parrot, that Kemi is anti human rights and anti the environment, because she wants out of the ECHR and Net Zero

    Are the ECHR and Net Zero the only ways to get human rights and green policies (obviously unconnected to Green policies)?

    The ECHR is not the only way of securing UK human rights, but is the means available of securing a good deal of it across a large number of countries. You would not want to replace it without good reason, and without realising it may be copied by the unscrupulous, or used within the UK for illiberal measures.

    If the science is correct about CO2 and climate change, net zero (meaning that we do not net add to the CO2 in the atmosphere) is the only available solution SFAICS.

    Kemi is, IMO, speaking with forked tongue. She is not technically opposed to net zero, she is opposed to the timetable of 2050. She may well be right of course that this can't be done. But her manner of speaking about it constantly gives comfort and cover to denialists. I don't think she ever emphasises the importance of achieving net zero. The denialists may be right of course, though I doubt it.

    Kemi mirrors Reform. Nowhere in their official documentation are they climate denialists. But their words and actions uniformly are contemptuous of efforts towards net zero in any time scale. They too are forked tongued.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,508

    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    Worst of all worlds then.

    Wankers.
    If you want to spook the market cause uncertainty then

    Burnham was clear just now he is not scrapping stamp duty
    I thought his messaging was supposed to be so much better than Starmer's?
    Everyone has a messaging plan until the media start punching you in the face.

    The week of small feelgood announcements was a smart way to buy some time, but you can't do that indefinitely.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,100
    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    He wouldn't be able to do anything as radical as that without having a general election first.

    Yes he would. Parliament is sovereign.

    In fact, he would be far better off doing it well in advance in a general election in hope of the benefits smothering the controversies by the time the votes were cast. The other way around, as Theresa May and Stanley Baldwin could explain to you, tends to be sub-optimal in electoral terms.
    Do you know, I'd never done this until this morning, but I had a look at the 1987 Conservative manifesto:

    http://www.conservativemanifesto.com/1987/1987-conservative-manifesto.shtml

    We will legislate in the first Session of the new Parliament to abolish the unfair domestic rating system and replace rates with a fairer Community Charge.

    This will be a fixed rate charge for local services paid by those over the age of 18, except the mentally ill and elderly people living in homes and hospitals. The less-well-off and students will not have to pay the full charge but everyone will be aware of the costs as well as the benefits of local services.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,340
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    He wouldn't be able to do anything as radical as that without having a general election first.

    Yes he would. Parliament is sovereign.

    In fact, he would be far better off doing it well in advance in a general election in hope of the benefits smothering the controversies by the time the votes were cast. The other way around, as Theresa May and Stanley Baldwin could explain to you, tends to be sub-optimal in electoral terms.
    Do you know, I'd never done this until this morning, but I had a look at the 1987 Conservative manifesto:

    http://www.conservativemanifesto.com/1987/1987-conservative-manifesto.shtml

    We will legislate in the first Session of the new Parliament to abolish the unfair domestic rating system and replace rates with a fairer Community Charge.

    This will be a fixed rate charge for local services paid by those over the age of 18, except the mentally ill and elderly people living in homes and hospitals. The less-well-off and students will not have to pay the full charge but everyone will be aware of the costs as well as the benefits of local services.
    And the way they sold it, as being a much cheaper and fairer way of doing local taxes, was immensely popular.

    Until the moment they realised that it would cost them more...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,833
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    Worst of all worlds then.

    Wankers.
    If you want to spook the market cause uncertainty then

    Burnham was clear just now he is not scrapping stamp duty
    I thought his messaging was supposed to be so much better than Starmer's?
    The confusion in messaging is mostly in Big G's head.
    There is no need to be rude
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,100

    GIN1138 said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    He wouldn't be able to do anything as radical as that without having a general election first.

    Following the precedent of Major and Heseltine, who held a general election before introducing council tax?
    I mean, it would have been somewhat harsh on the Tories who, having put the Community Charge in their manifesto and having won a majority, then listened to some of the public who were most upset about it and did something else, that they should then have to have an election immediately because they weren't implementing the manifesto.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,946

    DougSeal said:

    Good afternoon

    Interesting no 10 have said Burnham has no plans to scrap council tax or stamp duty

    Lots of wasted discussion on previous thread if so

    That's not what Sky are saying. They quote No 10 as saying no plans to scrap it this year.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-andy-burnham-keir-starmer-labour-12593360
    Worst of all worlds then.

    Wankers.
    If you want to spook the market cause uncertainty then

    Burnham was clear just now he is not scrapping stamp duty
    Once there is concerted speculation nothing a government can do or say will be definitive for the foreseeable future in removing grounds for further speculation. All of: Yes, No, No for now, Wait and see, No Comment are fuel to the fire.

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