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Betting on the Prime Minister after Andy Burnham – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,249
edited 7:06AM in General
Betting on the Prime Minister after Andy Burnham – politicalbetting.com

This is a market where it usually is profitable to lay than back at this time, Ed Miliband might be value if Andy Burnham proves to be rubbish and Labour MPs now used to ousting Prime Ministers could do a repeat.

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  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 64,097
    edited 7:10AM
    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Edited extra bit: even the gleeful assassins of the Conservatives only axed two leaders in one Parliament because one of them was driving the economy off a cliff. Unless Burnham does the same, he should be safe until the General Election.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,690

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Let me introduce you to concept of what happens when you lose your virginity.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 64,097

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Let me introduce you to concept of what happens when you lose your virginity.
    One might also compare it to falling from a 73rd floor window. Just because doing something once can lead to it becoming regular, that doesn't mean it applies to every single thing.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,589
    What is it called when you can't remember?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 64,097
    Battlebus said:

    What is it called when you can't remember?

    Je ne sais quoi.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,633
    There are some complete jokes on that list: Yusuf? Carns? Lowe?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,088
    edited 7:21AM

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Edited extra bit: even the gleeful assassins of the Conservatives only axed two leaders in one Parliament because one of them was driving the economy off a cliff. Unless Burnham does the same, he should be safe until the General Election.

    After George Lansbury, it was 91 years before Labour drove a second leader from office.

    After Balfour (1911) and Austen Chamberlain (1922) it was not until 1965 that another Conservative leader was removed solely by his party. Admittedly, they then proceeded to start sacking them as though they were the Nuremberg executioners.

    Burnham will, I would guess, not be very good, but he will be able to get away with quite a lot by simply blaming his predecessor.

    Which is also one reason why we can be pretty sure Rachel Reeves will not be in his cabinet at all. Harder to make that case if you have the same chancellor as Starmer.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 8,051
    Andy Murray Burnham used to work at Tank World
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,822
    No value here IMHO. The only candidates for next PM on whom a price can be placed are Farage and Badenoch. Farage is ludicrously short as he isn't going to be PM under any foreseeable circumstances. Those who see a massive Tory recovery or a Tory + Reform government may be tempted to go for Badenoch but I don't think so. Labour will not change leader again before the next election, and Burnham's successor as leader could be almost anyone; 2029 is a long way away.

    Possible value at the moment: 2028 as date of election, which has shortened. And Labour majority/Labour most seats.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,957
    Sandpit said:

    Congratulations to those who had Salavat oil refinery in Bashkortostan on their bingo cards for today.

    https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/2076876749632143856

    Also the Afipsky oil refinery in Krasnodar Krai.

    The Salavat refinery hasn't been targeted since September last year. Afipsky was hit in June and March of this year.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,690

    There are some complete jokes on that list: Yusuf? Carns? Lowe?

    Al Carns is the Rehman Chisti of the Labour Party.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,962
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Malmesbury and others will be greatly cheered by this from the excellent Joshua Rozenberg showing that the gigantic process and regulatory state not only provides a decent number of comfortable jobs for the boys but has the added attraction that it doesn't work, leading to further investigation into the regulators (answering Juvenal's great question 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes' namely, an infinite regress of regulators) which will surely result in further and better paid and worse regulatory structures.

    The spider diagram is one to send the thoughtful reader into a state of trance.


    https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/regulator-loses-its-way?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=79530&post_id=206831753&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1mnpci&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

    It is one of the differences that I have with the estimable @Cyclefree. She appears to believe more regulation is the way forward, my experience is that regulation, and the creation of quasi autonomous bureaucracies like the LSB and many others in that diagram, often makes things worse. It emphasises form over substance and creates lots of additional cost with minimal reward. Our regulatory sector is, in my view, a serious and underrated impediment to growth in this country.
    The big problem I think is a system of private and quasi-independent state monopolies that depends on regulation to function properly, where the regulators simply aren't to to the task. I am thinking eg OFWAT, OFCOM.

    Simply abolishing them would have a limited effect but isn't a solution either.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,957
    I think Ed Miliband is value at 16/1. He's definitely a candidate that would balm the wounded soul of a Labour party that would be pretty wounded if it had to get rid of Burnham before the next election. Maybe a 1-in-8 chance?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,088

    What an utter snowflake Kemi Badenoch is.

    Plus she's thick as mince, I mean what idiot cancels Net Zero in the middle of a heatwave?

    If she's a snowflake, she won't last the heatwave.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,491
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Malmesbury and others will be greatly cheered by this from the excellent Joshua Rozenberg showing that the gigantic process and regulatory state not only provides a decent number of comfortable jobs for the boys but has the added attraction that it doesn't work, leading to further investigation into the regulators (answering Juvenal's great question 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes' namely, an infinite regress of regulators) which will surely result in further and better paid and worse regulatory structures.

    The spider diagram is one to send the thoughtful reader into a state of trance.


    https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/regulator-loses-its-way?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=79530&post_id=206831753&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1mnpci&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

    It is one of the differences that I have with the estimable @Cyclefree. She appears to believe more regulation is the way forward, my experience is that regulation, and the creation of quasi autonomous bureaucracies like the LSB and many others in that diagram, often makes things worse. It emphasises form over substance and creates lots of additional cost with minimal reward. Our regulatory sector is, in my view, a serious and underrated impediment to growth in this country.
    The big problem I think is a system of private and quasi-independent state monopolies that depends on regulation to function properly, where the regulators simply aren't to to the task. I am thinking eg OFWAT, OFCOM.

    Simply abolishing them would have a limited effect but isn't a solution either.
    Also functions such as building inspection, which appears to now be limited to checking mountains of paperwork, rather than, as a random example, that the building wall isn’t covered in flammable cladding.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,690
    edited 7:35AM

    I think Ed Miliband is value at 16/1. He's definitely a candidate that would balm the wounded soul of a Labour party that would be pretty wounded if it had to get rid of Burnham before the next election. Maybe a 1-in-8 chance?

    Hopefully somebody will price him at 100/1 again but I agree with you.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,319
    edited 7:39AM
    ydoethur said:

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Edited extra bit: even the gleeful assassins of the Conservatives only axed two leaders in one Parliament because one of them was driving the economy off a cliff. Unless Burnham does the same, he should be safe until the General Election.

    After George Lansbury, it was 91 years before Labour drove a second leader from office.

    After Balfour (1911) and Austen Chamberlain (1922) it was not until 1965 that another Conservative leader was removed solely by his party. Admittedly, they then proceeded to start sacking them as though they were the Nuremberg executioners.

    Burnham will, I would guess, not be very good, but he will be able to get away with quite a lot by simply blaming his predecessor.

    Which is also one reason why we can be pretty sure Rachel Reeves will not be in his cabinet at all. Harder to make that case if you have the same chancellor as Starmer.
    72 (edit) years not 91. Blair was quite clearly driven from office by Labour at Brown's instigation. The process was the same. Blair resigned only to preserve his dignity, as did Starmer, because unlike his successor Blair was deeply unpopular on departure and he knew he could not win what would have been an inevitable leadership challenge had he stayed.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,766
    edited 7:44AM
    On topic, Burnham will surely get a GE so this is largely a proxy vote on the outcome. I'd lay Farage and make a small lay on Streeting and then wait to see who else moves into view; Kemi may become a lay if the Tories have some better results in future locals or by-elections. As TSE says, backing anyone right now doesn't really make betting sense. If, as I will be doing, you get to decently red on Farage it makes sense to lay Lowe down to the same level, as that's effectively free money. Once BF offers the market, obvs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,088

    ydoethur said:

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Edited extra bit: even the gleeful assassins of the Conservatives only axed two leaders in one Parliament because one of them was driving the economy off a cliff. Unless Burnham does the same, he should be safe until the General Election.

    After George Lansbury, it was 91 years before Labour drove a second leader from office.

    After Balfour (1911) and Austen Chamberlain (1922) it was not until 1965 that another Conservative leader was removed solely by his party. Admittedly, they then proceeded to start sacking them as though they were the Nuremberg executioners.

    Burnham will, I would guess, not be very good, but he will be able to get away with quite a lot by simply blaming his predecessor.

    Which is also one reason why we can be pretty sure Rachel Reeves will not be in his cabinet at all. Harder to make that case if you have the same chancellor as Starmer.
    76 years not 91. Blair was quite clearly driven from office by Labour at Brown's instigation. The process was the same. Blair resigned only to preserve his dignity, as did Starmer, because unlike his successor Blair was deeply unpopular on departure and he knew he could not win what would have been an inevitable leadership challenge had he stayed.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong. Blair had already said he was leaving, and he could have survived Brown's heavy handed bungling attempts to remove him if (a) he hadn't done that and (b) he'd actually made an effort. He didn't bother, because he calculated that to do so for another few months in office was not worth the hassle.

    Starmer went because he would have lost a leadership election had one been triggered, and he knew it was about to be triggered. He had in fact managed to forestall it with the Gorton by-election earlier, but had lost the support he needed for a repeat performance.

    Brown would not have done so, if only because it would have been highly damaging to his image as a unifier which may have been mad but was important to him.

    So it's 91 years.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,690
    YouGov / Sky / Times voting intention

    RefUK 24(-1),
    CON 19(-2),
    LAB 19(-1),
    GRN 15(+2)
    LDEM 13(+1),
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,491
    edited 7:45AM
    The other side of the Ukraine war, lest we forget.

    One side is hitting oil refineries and military convoys, the other just appears to be randomly targeting cities and objects of no military value.

    https://x.com/zelenskyyua/status/2076930325968519266

    Last night, the Russians launched 135 drones and 10 missiles of various types, most of them ballistic, against our cities and communities. Seven people were injured in the Kharkiv region, including a child. Ordinary residential buildings, a gas station, and railway infrastructure were damaged. Three people were injured in the Chernihiv region. The Russians damaged a residential building and power grid facilities, leaving thousands of families without electricity. Repair crews are now working to restore power to people as quickly as possible. An apartment building was also damaged in Zaporizhzhia.

    The Russians struck Kyiv with ballistic missiles. Sixteen sites were damaged in the capital, including an ordinary school and a business. Critical infrastructure in the Dnipro, Donetsk, Zhytomyr, and Odesa regions was also targeted.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,328
    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Malmesbury and others will be greatly cheered by this from the excellent Joshua Rozenberg showing that the gigantic process and regulatory state not only provides a decent number of comfortable jobs for the boys but has the added attraction that it doesn't work, leading to further investigation into the regulators (answering Juvenal's great question 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes' namely, an infinite regress of regulators) which will surely result in further and better paid and worse regulatory structures.

    The spider diagram is one to send the thoughtful reader into a state of trance.


    https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/regulator-loses-its-way?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=79530&post_id=206831753&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1mnpci&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

    It is one of the differences that I have with the estimable @Cyclefree. She appears to believe more regulation is the way forward, my experience is that regulation, and the creation of quasi autonomous bureaucracies like the LSB and many others in that diagram, often makes things worse. It emphasises form over substance and creates lots of additional cost with minimal reward. Our regulatory sector is, in my view, a serious and underrated impediment to growth in this country.
    The big problem I think is a system of private and quasi-independent state monopolies that depends on regulation to function properly, where the regulators simply aren't to to the task. I am thinking eg OFWAT, OFCOM.

    Simply abolishing them would have a limited effect but isn't a solution either.
    Also functions such as building inspection, which appears to now be limited to checking mountains of paperwork, rather than, as a random example, that the building wall isn’t covered in flammable cladding.
    So why do we do it this way?

    I suspect the answer is something like- the public wants the regulations but doesn't want to pay for boots-on-the-ground regulators.

    So we have placebo regulation by paperwork instead. Because who is going to win an election on a platform of spending more on Trading Standards and Building Control?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,001
    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,766
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Edited extra bit: even the gleeful assassins of the Conservatives only axed two leaders in one Parliament because one of them was driving the economy off a cliff. Unless Burnham does the same, he should be safe until the General Election.

    After George Lansbury, it was 91 years before Labour drove a second leader from office.

    After Balfour (1911) and Austen Chamberlain (1922) it was not until 1965 that another Conservative leader was removed solely by his party. Admittedly, they then proceeded to start sacking them as though they were the Nuremberg executioners.

    Burnham will, I would guess, not be very good, but he will be able to get away with quite a lot by simply blaming his predecessor.

    Which is also one reason why we can be pretty sure Rachel Reeves will not be in his cabinet at all. Harder to make that case if you have the same chancellor as Starmer.
    76 years not 91. Blair was quite clearly driven from office by Labour at Brown's instigation. The process was the same. Blair resigned only to preserve his dignity, as did Starmer, because unlike his successor Blair was deeply unpopular on departure and he knew he could not win what would have been an inevitable leadership challenge had he stayed.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong. Blair had already said he was leaving, and he could have survived Brown's heavy handed bungling attempts to remove him if (a) he hadn't done that and (b) he'd actually made an effort. He didn't bother, because he calculated that to do so for another few months in office was not worth the hassle.

    Starmer went because he would have lost a leadership election had one been triggered, and he knew it was about to be triggered. He had in fact managed to forestall it with the Gorton by-election earlier, but had lost the support he needed for a repeat performance.

    Brown would not have done so, if only because it would have been highly damaging to his image as a unifier which may have been mad but was important to him.

    So it's 91 years.
    The two of them fell out, and almost came to (political) blows, in mid 2003, over the decision regarding the Euro. Both stepped back from the brink and the compromise was an agreed succession - made public, as I recall, in 2006 a year before Brown took over in 2007. So it can hardly be argued that Blair was forced out.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,212

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Let me introduce you to concept of what happens when you lose your virginity.
    I thought one could only do that once? Have I been doing it wrong?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,677
    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,328

    What an utter snowflake Kemi Badenoch is.

    Plus she's thick as mince, I mean what idiot cancels Net Zero in the middle of a heatwave?

    Havering council (prop: Nigel Farage), that's who.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/reform-uk-havering-council-climate-emergency-scrapped-b1289760.html

    Though the weasels are thriving in far North East London, given how many of their words are in their statement:

    Nigel Farage’s party running Havering Council declares it will ‘not pursue environmental or net zero-related policies in a way that places unnecessary cost, restriction, or pressure on residents’

    Prediction: not much will actually change, and that word "unnecessary" is going to do a lot of work.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,500
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Malmesbury and others will be greatly cheered by this from the excellent Joshua Rozenberg showing that the gigantic process and regulatory state not only provides a decent number of comfortable jobs for the boys but has the added attraction that it doesn't work, leading to further investigation into the regulators (answering Juvenal's great question 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes' namely, an infinite regress of regulators) which will surely result in further and better paid and worse regulatory structures.

    The spider diagram is one to send the thoughtful reader into a state of trance.


    https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/regulator-loses-its-way?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=79530&post_id=206831753&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1mnpci&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

    It is one of the differences that I have with the estimable @Cyclefree. She appears to believe more regulation is the way forward, my experience is that regulation, and the creation of quasi autonomous bureaucracies like the LSB and many others in that diagram, often makes things worse. It emphasises form over substance and creates lots of additional cost with minimal reward. Our regulatory sector is, in my view, a serious and underrated impediment to growth in this country.
    The big problem I think is a system of private and quasi-independent state monopolies that depends on regulation to function properly, where the regulators simply aren't to to the task. I am thinking eg OFWAT, OFCOM.

    Simply abolishing them would have a limited effect but isn't a solution either.
    OFWAT in particular simply pours taxpayers' money down the drain.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,667
    Good morning

    On the eve of Burnham's coronation labour women have spoken out about the party’s failure to elect a woman leader in 120 years, despite every other major UK political party having done so

    I would have thought for betting purposes a woman should be favourite to follow Burnham

    However, do not ask me who
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,001

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 1,066

    Good morning

    On the eve of Burnham's coronation labour women have spoken out about the party’s failure to elect a woman leader in 120 years, despite every other major UK political party having done so

    I would have thought for betting purposes a woman should be favourite to follow Burnham

    However, do not ask me who

    Bev Craig

    In a decade
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,822
    Have we noted that the suspect has been re-arrested under terrorism legislation, which then allows for being held for up to 14 days without charge. (Sky has reported this, not noticed it elsewhere).

    No doubt David Davis will have a view on this. Maybe resign and force a byelection?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,822

    Good morning

    On the eve of Burnham's coronation labour women have spoken out about the party’s failure to elect a woman leader in 120 years, despite every other major UK political party having done so

    I would have thought for betting purposes a woman should be favourite to follow Burnham

    However, do not ask me who

    I should think all that is required for a woman Labour leader is for the women MPs and membership to vote for one. In this sense there is no such thing as 'the party'. But there are MPs and individual members.

    Is it possible that in each case they thought the best candidate in the interests of the country was a man?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,319
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Edited extra bit: even the gleeful assassins of the Conservatives only axed two leaders in one Parliament because one of them was driving the economy off a cliff. Unless Burnham does the same, he should be safe until the General Election.

    After George Lansbury, it was 91 years before Labour drove a second leader from office.

    After Balfour (1911) and Austen Chamberlain (1922) it was not until 1965 that another Conservative leader was removed solely by his party. Admittedly, they then proceeded to start sacking them as though they were the Nuremberg executioners.

    Burnham will, I would guess, not be very good, but he will be able to get away with quite a lot by simply blaming his predecessor.

    Which is also one reason why we can be pretty sure Rachel Reeves will not be in his cabinet at all. Harder to make that case if you have the same chancellor as Starmer.
    76 years not 91. Blair was quite clearly driven from office by Labour at Brown's instigation. The process was the same. Blair resigned only to preserve his dignity, as did Starmer, because unlike his successor Blair was deeply unpopular on departure and he knew he could not win what would have been an inevitable leadership challenge had he stayed.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong. Blair had already said he was leaving, and he could have survived Brown's heavy handed bungling attempts to remove him if (a) he hadn't done that and (b) he'd actually made an effort. He didn't bother, because he calculated that to do so for another few months in office was not worth the hassle.

    Starmer went because he would have lost a leadership election had one been triggered, and he knew it was about to be triggered. He had in fact managed to forestall it with the Gorton by-election earlier, but had lost the support he needed for a repeat performance.

    Brown would not have done so, if only because it would have been highly damaging to his image as a unifier which may have been mad but was important to him.

    So it's 91 years.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong.

    You say that Blair had already said he was leaving but in fact he was forced out long before the timing of his choosing. That is, Blair had said in September 2004 that "he would serve a "full third term" but would not contest a fourth general election". But in September 2006 the mounting pressure from Brown and within the party forced him to announce that he would be gone within a year.

    Even then he tried to cling on without setting a date and only went after the disasterous May 2007 election results in the face of what would otherwise have been an inevitable formal leadership challenge. Brown, like Burnham, waited for the PM to announce his departure before seeking nominations as leader.

    Brown very clearly forced Blair out, to a timetable not of his choosing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,491
    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Malmesbury and others will be greatly cheered by this from the excellent Joshua Rozenberg showing that the gigantic process and regulatory state not only provides a decent number of comfortable jobs for the boys but has the added attraction that it doesn't work, leading to further investigation into the regulators (answering Juvenal's great question 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes' namely, an infinite regress of regulators) which will surely result in further and better paid and worse regulatory structures.

    The spider diagram is one to send the thoughtful reader into a state of trance.


    https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/regulator-loses-its-way?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=79530&post_id=206831753&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1mnpci&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

    It is one of the differences that I have with the estimable @Cyclefree. She appears to believe more regulation is the way forward, my experience is that regulation, and the creation of quasi autonomous bureaucracies like the LSB and many others in that diagram, often makes things worse. It emphasises form over substance and creates lots of additional cost with minimal reward. Our regulatory sector is, in my view, a serious and underrated impediment to growth in this country.
    The big problem I think is a system of private and quasi-independent state monopolies that depends on regulation to function properly, where the regulators simply aren't to to the task. I am thinking eg OFWAT, OFCOM.

    Simply abolishing them would have a limited effect but isn't a solution either.
    OFWAT in particular simply pours taxpayers' money down the drain.
    Quite literally so!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,001
    algarkirk said:

    Have we noted that the suspect has been re-arrested under terrorism legislation, which then allows for being held for up to 14 days without charge. (Sky has reported this, not noticed it elsewhere).

    No doubt David Davis will have a view on this. Maybe resign and force a byelection?

    Wasn't Davis objecting to 42 day detention without charge?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,667
    algarkirk said:

    Good morning

    On the eve of Burnham's coronation labour women have spoken out about the party’s failure to elect a woman leader in 120 years, despite every other major UK political party having done so

    I would have thought for betting purposes a woman should be favourite to follow Burnham

    However, do not ask me who

    I should think all that is required for a woman Labour leader is for the women MPs and membership to vote for one. In this sense there is no such thing as 'the party'. But there are MPs and individual members.

    Is it possible that in each case they thought the best candidate in the interests of the country was a man?
    in this case they couldn't even find a 'man' without parachuting one in from outside their mps

    I expect Labour women will see a woman succeeds Burnham sometime from 2029 on
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,822

    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Malmesbury and others will be greatly cheered by this from the excellent Joshua Rozenberg showing that the gigantic process and regulatory state not only provides a decent number of comfortable jobs for the boys but has the added attraction that it doesn't work, leading to further investigation into the regulators (answering Juvenal's great question 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes' namely, an infinite regress of regulators) which will surely result in further and better paid and worse regulatory structures.

    The spider diagram is one to send the thoughtful reader into a state of trance.


    https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/regulator-loses-its-way?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=79530&post_id=206831753&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1mnpci&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

    It is one of the differences that I have with the estimable @Cyclefree. She appears to believe more regulation is the way forward, my experience is that regulation, and the creation of quasi autonomous bureaucracies like the LSB and many others in that diagram, often makes things worse. It emphasises form over substance and creates lots of additional cost with minimal reward. Our regulatory sector is, in my view, a serious and underrated impediment to growth in this country.
    The big problem I think is a system of private and quasi-independent state monopolies that depends on regulation to function properly, where the regulators simply aren't to to the task. I am thinking eg OFWAT, OFCOM.

    Simply abolishing them would have a limited effect but isn't a solution either.
    Also functions such as building inspection, which appears to now be limited to checking mountains of paperwork, rather than, as a random example, that the building wall isn’t covered in flammable cladding.
    So why do we do it this way?

    I suspect the answer is something like- the public wants the regulations but doesn't want to pay for boots-on-the-ground regulators.

    So we have placebo regulation by paperwork instead. Because who is going to win an election on a platform of spending more on Trading Standards and Building Control?
    Maybe it's really a much wider issue, more the sort of stuff anthropologists look at. Could it be that the best regulator is a society built on trust, shame, accountability, transparency, the rule of law, and the value of competence? And that a less good regulator is obfuscation, distrust, delayed or absent accountability, incompetence, failing upwards, mutual back-scratching, casino wealth, networking, shamelessness, anonymous and complex ownership structures and the like?

  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 267
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    We cannot judge the investigation. Yet.

    We can judge their initial communications which were poor. The police should simply have said that they did not yet know the motive behind the murder, would investigate and would update as and when appropriate.

    Ruling anything out before they had investigated was foolish. Why the police keep making such silly mistakes is bizarre.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,677
    AnthonyT said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    We cannot judge the investigation. Yet.

    We can judge their initial communications which were poor. The police should simply have said that they did not yet know the motive behind the murder, would investigate and would update as and when appropriate.

    Ruling anything out before they had investigated was foolish. Why the police keep making such silly mistakes is bizarre.
    This is literally what they did say and do.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,491
    edited 8:21AM
    Now up to 105 Russian ships of various types hit in the Sea of Azov, and all of them documented by the drones that are taking them out. Astonishing footage.

    https://x.com/414magyarbirds/status/2076584731928318187
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,088

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Edited extra bit: even the gleeful assassins of the Conservatives only axed two leaders in one Parliament because one of them was driving the economy off a cliff. Unless Burnham does the same, he should be safe until the General Election.

    After George Lansbury, it was 91 years before Labour drove a second leader from office.

    After Balfour (1911) and Austen Chamberlain (1922) it was not until 1965 that another Conservative leader was removed solely by his party. Admittedly, they then proceeded to start sacking them as though they were the Nuremberg executioners.

    Burnham will, I would guess, not be very good, but he will be able to get away with quite a lot by simply blaming his predecessor.

    Which is also one reason why we can be pretty sure Rachel Reeves will not be in his cabinet at all. Harder to make that case if you have the same chancellor as Starmer.
    76 years not 91. Blair was quite clearly driven from office by Labour at Brown's instigation. The process was the same. Blair resigned only to preserve his dignity, as did Starmer, because unlike his successor Blair was deeply unpopular on departure and he knew he could not win what would have been an inevitable leadership challenge had he stayed.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong. Blair had already said he was leaving, and he could have survived Brown's heavy handed bungling attempts to remove him if (a) he hadn't done that and (b) he'd actually made an effort. He didn't bother, because he calculated that to do so for another few months in office was not worth the hassle.

    Starmer went because he would have lost a leadership election had one been triggered, and he knew it was about to be triggered. He had in fact managed to forestall it with the Gorton by-election earlier, but had lost the support he needed for a repeat performance.

    Brown would not have done so, if only because it would have been highly damaging to his image as a unifier which may have been mad but was important to him.

    So it's 91 years.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong.

    You say that Blair had already said he was leaving but in fact he was forced out long before the timing of his choosing. That is, Blair had said in September 2004 that "he would serve a "full third term" but would not contest a fourth general election". But in September 2006 the mounting pressure from Brown and within the party forced him to announce that he would be gone within a year.

    Even then he tried to cling on without setting a date and only went after the disasterous May 2007 election results in the face of what would otherwise have been an inevitable formal leadership challenge. Brown, like Burnham, waited for the PM to announce his departure before seeking nominations as leader.

    Brown very clearly forced Blair out, to a timetable not of his choosing.
    The point being again, if Blair had not pre-announced his departure there would not have been the media frenzy over his legacy and succession which was in great part responsible for the May fiasco. And there is absolutely no chance Brown would have triggered a contest, given he would have had to resign as Chancellor, and he had no stalking horse that could have triggered it for him.

    Blair could have hung on with a little more sense and a little more nerve. He chose not to.

    Obviously I am not going to change your mind on this, but you are still wrong.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,667

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,088
    edited 8:23AM
    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Malmesbury and others will be greatly cheered by this from the excellent Joshua Rozenberg showing that the gigantic process and regulatory state not only provides a decent number of comfortable jobs for the boys but has the added attraction that it doesn't work, leading to further investigation into the regulators (answering Juvenal's great question 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes' namely, an infinite regress of regulators) which will surely result in further and better paid and worse regulatory structures.

    The spider diagram is one to send the thoughtful reader into a state of trance.


    https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/regulator-loses-its-way?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=79530&post_id=206831753&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1mnpci&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

    It is one of the differences that I have with the estimable @Cyclefree. She appears to believe more regulation is the way forward, my experience is that regulation, and the creation of quasi autonomous bureaucracies like the LSB and many others in that diagram, often makes things worse. It emphasises form over substance and creates lots of additional cost with minimal reward. Our regulatory sector is, in my view, a serious and underrated impediment to growth in this country.
    The big problem I think is a system of private and quasi-independent state monopolies that depends on regulation to function properly, where the regulators simply aren't to to the task. I am thinking eg OFWAT, OFCOM.

    Simply abolishing them would have a limited effect but isn't a solution either.
    OFWAT in particular simply pours taxpayers' money down the drain.
    Offpiss, as Jasper Carrott called them.

    Is there a single regulator in that sense that actually does a good job? OFSTED might have come close ten years ago but its performance has always been uneven and now it's a shrivelled hulk fit only for a decent burial.

    Maybe the HSE?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,507

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Nigel's press conference at the murder scene was beautifully choreographed. He is a consummate professional.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,762

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Edited extra bit: even the gleeful assassins of the Conservatives only axed two leaders in one Parliament because one of them was driving the economy off a cliff. Unless Burnham does the same, he should be safe until the General Election.

    After George Lansbury, it was 91 years before Labour drove a second leader from office.

    After Balfour (1911) and Austen Chamberlain (1922) it was not until 1965 that another Conservative leader was removed solely by his party. Admittedly, they then proceeded to start sacking them as though they were the Nuremberg executioners.

    Burnham will, I would guess, not be very good, but he will be able to get away with quite a lot by simply blaming his predecessor.

    Which is also one reason why we can be pretty sure Rachel Reeves will not be in his cabinet at all. Harder to make that case if you have the same chancellor as Starmer.
    76 years not 91. Blair was quite clearly driven from office by Labour at Brown's instigation. The process was the same. Blair resigned only to preserve his dignity, as did Starmer, because unlike his successor Blair was deeply unpopular on departure and he knew he could not win what would have been an inevitable leadership challenge had he stayed.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong. Blair had already said he was leaving, and he could have survived Brown's heavy handed bungling attempts to remove him if (a) he hadn't done that and (b) he'd actually made an effort. He didn't bother, because he calculated that to do so for another few months in office was not worth the hassle.

    Starmer went because he would have lost a leadership election had one been triggered, and he knew it was about to be triggered. He had in fact managed to forestall it with the Gorton by-election earlier, but had lost the support he needed for a repeat performance.

    Brown would not have done so, if only because it would have been highly damaging to his image as a unifier which may have been mad but was important to him.

    So it's 91 years.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong.

    You say that Blair had already said he was leaving but in fact he was forced out long before the timing of his choosing. That is, Blair had said in September 2004 that "he would serve a "full third term" but would not contest a fourth general election". But in September 2006 the mounting pressure from Brown and within the party forced him to announce that he would be gone within a year.

    Even then he tried to cling on without setting a date and only went after the disasterous May 2007 election results in the face of what would otherwise have been an inevitable formal leadership challenge. Brown, like Burnham, waited for the PM to announce his departure before seeking nominations as leader.

    Brown very clearly forced Blair out, to a timetable not of his choosing.
    were you asleep during the 2005 general election campaign where it was obvious from the campaign hat Blair was going to step down at some stage rather than serve a full term?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,507

    algarkirk said:

    Good morning

    On the eve of Burnham's coronation labour women have spoken out about the party’s failure to elect a woman leader in 120 years, despite every other major UK political party having done so

    I would have thought for betting purposes a woman should be favourite to follow Burnham

    However, do not ask me who

    I should think all that is required for a woman Labour leader is for the women MPs and membership to vote for one. In this sense there is no such thing as 'the party'. But there are MPs and individual members.

    Is it possible that in each case they thought the best candidate in the interests of the country was a man?
    in this case they couldn't even find a 'man' without parachuting one in from outside their mps

    I expect Labour women will see a woman succeeds Burnham sometime from 2029 on
    That is rather disingenuous. There are plenty of well qualified candidates from within a currently enormous PLP.

    It was people like yourself demanding Starmer allow Burnham to stand that has found us where we are. I didn't want him! But now he is on the cusp of being Prime Minister I'll wish him the best of luck-he'll need it.

    Anyway the two alternatives jockeying for position to replace him are absolutely appalling.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,001

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Err, no. You don't get to tell people what they can and can't talk about. The police and the likes of Hodges have behaved disgracefully.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 22,161

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree. In retrospect some of the early statements appear now in the light of subsequent evidence to have been wrong, but the police do have a duty to limit public concern to the known facts and discourage wild speculation.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,957
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Edited extra bit: even the gleeful assassins of the Conservatives only axed two leaders in one Parliament because one of them was driving the economy off a cliff. Unless Burnham does the same, he should be safe until the General Election.

    After George Lansbury, it was 91 years before Labour drove a second leader from office.

    After Balfour (1911) and Austen Chamberlain (1922) it was not until 1965 that another Conservative leader was removed solely by his party. Admittedly, they then proceeded to start sacking them as though they were the Nuremberg executioners.

    Burnham will, I would guess, not be very good, but he will be able to get away with quite a lot by simply blaming his predecessor.

    Which is also one reason why we can be pretty sure Rachel Reeves will not be in his cabinet at all. Harder to make that case if you have the same chancellor as Starmer.
    76 years not 91. Blair was quite clearly driven from office by Labour at Brown's instigation. The process was the same. Blair resigned only to preserve his dignity, as did Starmer, because unlike his successor Blair was deeply unpopular on departure and he knew he could not win what would have been an inevitable leadership challenge had he stayed.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong. Blair had already said he was leaving, and he could have survived Brown's heavy handed bungling attempts to remove him if (a) he hadn't done that and (b) he'd actually made an effort. He didn't bother, because he calculated that to do so for another few months in office was not worth the hassle.

    Starmer went because he would have lost a leadership election had one been triggered, and he knew it was about to be triggered. He had in fact managed to forestall it with the Gorton by-election earlier, but had lost the support he needed for a repeat performance.

    Brown would not have done so, if only because it would have been highly damaging to his image as a unifier which may have been mad but was important to him.

    So it's 91 years.
    The two of them fell out, and almost came to (political) blows, in mid 2003, over the decision regarding the Euro. Both stepped back from the brink and the compromise was an agreed succession - made public, as I recall, in 2006 a year before Brown took over in 2007. So it can hardly be argued that Blair was forced out.
    The 2005 general election was fought on a pretty clear basis of, "vote Blair, get Brown (eventually)."

    Labour were in a bit of trouble before this was made clear enough.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,001

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree. In retrospect some of the early statements appear now in the light of subsequent evidence to have been wrong, but the police do have a duty to limit public concern to the known facts and discourage wild speculation.
    Arguably, their comments were concerning because they suggested there might have still been a threat to the public (especially after the first man they arrested was released).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 40,507
    edited 8:40AM
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Err, no. You don't get to tell people what they can and can't talk about. The police and the likes of Hodges have behaved disgracefully.
    I wouldn't trust a copper further than I can throw this car I am sitting in, but they can't win with the PB right.

    The PB right always want to know the ethnicity of the suspect so they told you the guy was white British, He was white British so they didn't racially profile him and immediately grab for the political terrorism klaxon. As far as procedure is concerned I don't see what more they could have done.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,628
    "I don't understand why Devon and Cornwall Police were steering the public away from the idea that this was a terrorist case and I don't know why they didn't simply say they had an open mind as to the motivation. I think they probably broke one of the golden rules of investigations, which is not to comment on live investigations in case new facts emerge. So that aspect is slightly regrettable."

    Jonathan Hall, KC. Independent terrorism reviewer for the government.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 22,161
    algarkirk said:

    Good morning

    On the eve of Burnham's coronation labour women have spoken out about the party’s failure to elect a woman leader in 120 years, despite every other major UK political party having done so

    I would have thought for betting purposes a woman should be favourite to follow Burnham

    However, do not ask me who

    I should think all that is required for a woman Labour leader is for the women MPs and membership to vote for one. In this sense there is no such thing as 'the party'. But there are MPs and individual members.

    Is it possible that in each case they thought the best candidate in the interests of the country was a man?
    Yes - the huge increase in the number of women MPs (especially on the Labour side) is relatively recent, so a number of strong candidates are still working their way through the Ministerial level. I'd like to have a woman leader, but their gender is much less important than what they think and say.

    I think there was a period when the public image of PMs was male, but that's largely disappeared (to be fair, probably Maggie has some of the credit for that).
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,589

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Nigel's press conference at the murder scene was beautifully choreographed. He is a consummate professional.
    Conmen usually are.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,001



    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Err, no. You don't get to tell people what they can and can't talk about. The police and the likes of Hodges have behaved disgracefully.
    I wouldn't trust a copper further than I can throw this car I am sitting in, but they can't win with the PB right.

    The PB right always want to know the ethnicity of the suspect so they told you the guy was white British, He was white British so they didn't racially profile him and immediately grab for the political terrorism klaxon. As far as procedure is concerned I don't see what more they could have done.
    All they had to say is that they did not know the motive of the attack and investigations were ongoing. Saying specifically that there was no evidence of it being politically motivated gave the impression that they did know what had gone on (e.g. they think she knew her attacker).
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,328
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Err, no. You don't get to tell people what they can and can't talk about. The police and the likes of Hodges have behaved disgracefully.
    Two things.

    First- if there's a criminal trial involved, there absolutely is a restriction on what people can and can't talk about, and rightly so.

    Second, and more importantly- yes, people have a right to say things, with some understandable legal exceptions. That also means that other people have the right to say back to them 'you're saying things that are dumb/nasty/distasteful etc.'

    But since this event is turning into a 'this proves what I thought all along' fest, I'm going to resurrect my campagin for news to be delivered once a week, preferably on a Sunday after evensong, when everyone is calm. We would be saved a lot of bother.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,000

    algarkirk said:

    Good morning

    On the eve of Burnham's coronation labour women have spoken out about the party’s failure to elect a woman leader in 120 years, despite every other major UK political party having done so

    I would have thought for betting purposes a woman should be favourite to follow Burnham

    However, do not ask me who

    I should think all that is required for a woman Labour leader is for the women MPs and membership to vote for one. In this sense there is no such thing as 'the party'. But there are MPs and individual members.

    Is it possible that in each case they thought the best candidate in the interests of the country was a man?
    Yes - the huge increase in the number of women MPs (especially on the Labour side) is relatively recent, so a number of strong candidates are still working their way through the Ministerial level. I'd like to have a woman leader, but their gender is much less important than what they think and say.

    I think there was a period when the public image of PMs was male, but that's largely disappeared (to be fair, probably Maggie has some of the credit for that).
    I think that that distinction between sex and political position holds, even though it is correct to say that different sexes DO bring different experiences eg experience of being pregnant, experience of fear of walking out at night, experience on the male side of being treated as the likely guilty party by the police in the event of a crime, and many others.

    And we do need our elected structures, and our police (for example) to look recognisably like our society.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,898



    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Err, no. You don't get to tell people what they can and can't talk about. The police and the likes of Hodges have behaved disgracefully.
    I wouldn't trust a copper further than I can throw this car I am sitting in, but they can't win with the PB right.

    The PB right always want to know the ethnicity of the suspect so they told you the guy was white British, He was white British so they didn't racially profile him and immediately grab for the political terrorism klaxon. As far as procedure is concerned I don't see what more they could have done.
    If a white man had driven 300 miles to beat Skinner to death there would have speculation on it being a far right attack. It would have been inevitable.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,320
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Malmesbury and others will be greatly cheered by this from the excellent Joshua Rozenberg showing that the gigantic process and regulatory state not only provides a decent number of comfortable jobs for the boys but has the added attraction that it doesn't work, leading to further investigation into the regulators (answering Juvenal's great question 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes' namely, an infinite regress of regulators) which will surely result in further and better paid and worse regulatory structures.

    The spider diagram is one to send the thoughtful reader into a state of trance.


    https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/regulator-loses-its-way?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=79530&post_id=206831753&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1mnpci&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

    It is one of the differences that I have with the estimable @Cyclefree. She appears to believe more regulation is the way forward, my experience is that regulation, and the creation of quasi autonomous bureaucracies like the LSB and many others in that diagram, often makes things worse. It emphasises form over substance and creates lots of additional cost with minimal reward. Our regulatory sector is, in my view, a serious and underrated impediment to growth in this country.
    The big problem I think is a system of private and quasi-independent state monopolies that depends on regulation to function properly, where the regulators simply aren't to to the task. I am thinking eg OFWAT, OFCOM.

    Simply abolishing them would have a limited effect but isn't a solution either.
    Also functions such as building inspection, which appears to now be limited to checking mountains of paperwork, rather than, as a random example, that the building wall isn’t covered in flammable cladding.
    So why do we do it this way?

    I suspect the answer is something like- the public wants the regulations but doesn't want to pay for boots-on-the-ground regulators.

    So we have placebo regulation by paperwork instead. Because who is going to win an election on a platform of spending more on Trading Standards and Building Control?
    Maybe it's really a much wider issue, more the sort of stuff anthropologists look at. Could it be that the best regulator is a society built on trust, shame, accountability, transparency, the rule of law, and the value of competence? And that a less good regulator is obfuscation, distrust, delayed or absent accountability, incompetence, failing upwards, mutual back-scratching, casino wealth, networking, shamelessness, anonymous and complex ownership structures and the like?

    It’s accretion. Over time, regulation and laws build up. The fix is always more.

    This creates a constituency of regulators whose job is to believe in more and more paperwork.

    This in turn provides both a budget pressure to reduce actual inspection and an institutional belief that more regulation is better, just by itself.

    In addition, process is great for arse covering and having no responsibility or liability.

    In the Mitrokhin Archive, the history of the KGB tells a story. Of how they went from a few hundred people in a lean, mean, agile organisation, to hundreds of thousands in the 1970s. In vast tower bocks, they had meetings to decide on the biscuits for the meeting to discuss what budget the operation) that never actually happened) would come out of.

    I have a feeling that I may have worked there.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,957
    I thought this was interesting. Since the FIFA world ranking system was introduced, the winner of the world cup has been the highest-ranked semi-finalist five times, the second highest twice, and the third highest once. The lowest-ranked semi-finalist has not yet won the world cup. England are the lowest-ranked semi-finalist in 2026 - so time to create some new history I guess.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,667

    algarkirk said:

    Good morning

    On the eve of Burnham's coronation labour women have spoken out about the party’s failure to elect a woman leader in 120 years, despite every other major UK political party having done so

    I would have thought for betting purposes a woman should be favourite to follow Burnham

    However, do not ask me who

    I should think all that is required for a woman Labour leader is for the women MPs and membership to vote for one. In this sense there is no such thing as 'the party'. But there are MPs and individual members.

    Is it possible that in each case they thought the best candidate in the interests of the country was a man?
    in this case they couldn't even find a 'man' without parachuting one in from outside their mps

    I expect Labour women will see a woman succeeds Burnham sometime from 2029 on
    That is rather disingenuous. There are plenty of well qualified candidates from within a currently enormous PLP.

    It was people like yourself demanding Starmer allow Burnham to stand that has found us where we are. I didn't want him! But now he is on the cusp of being Prime Minister I'll wish him the best of luck-he'll need it.

    Anyway the two alternatives jockeying for position to replace him are absolutely appalling.
    Nothing to do with me

    Labour women are the ones talking and restless

    If I was betting it would be for a female to follow Burnham, whenever that is
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,677
    tlg86 said:



    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Err, no. You don't get to tell people what they can and can't talk about. The police and the likes of Hodges have behaved disgracefully.
    I wouldn't trust a copper further than I can throw this car I am sitting in, but they can't win with the PB right.

    The PB right always want to know the ethnicity of the suspect so they told you the guy was white British, He was white British so they didn't racially profile him and immediately grab for the political terrorism klaxon. As far as procedure is concerned I don't see what more they could have done.
    All they had to say is that they did not know the motive of the attack and investigations were ongoing. Saying specifically that there was no evidence of it being politically motivated gave the impression that they did know what had gone on (e.g. they think she knew her attacker).
    It's not the police's fault if people can't understand the difference in meaning between "there is currently no evidence of X" and "we have evidence that categorically rules out X". Why not just wait until their investigation is concluded and someone is charged for this horrific crime?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,677
    tlg86 said:



    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Err, no. You don't get to tell people what they can and can't talk about. The police and the likes of Hodges have behaved disgracefully.
    I wouldn't trust a copper further than I can throw this car I am sitting in, but they can't win with the PB right.

    The PB right always want to know the ethnicity of the suspect so they told you the guy was white British, He was white British so they didn't racially profile him and immediately grab for the political terrorism klaxon. As far as procedure is concerned I don't see what more they could have done.
    All they had to say is that they did not know the motive of the attack and investigations were ongoing. Saying specifically that there was no evidence of it being politically motivated gave the impression that they did know what had gone on (e.g. they think she knew her attacker).
    It's not the police's fault if people can't understand the difference in meaning between "there is currently no evidence of X" and "we have evidence that categorically rules out X". Why not just wait until their investigation is concluded and someone is charged for this horrific crime?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,528
    It largely depends if Burnham wins the next general election or not. If he doesn't then Farage or Badenoch would be next PM. If he does then it depends how long Labour remains ahead in the polls, if the right reunite and they fall behind in the polls it might be a more centrist New Labour figure like Streeting who replaces him rather than just more leftism with Ed Miliband or Rayner
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,319
    Tres said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is doing it once enough to make Labour MPs 'used to' it?

    Edited extra bit: even the gleeful assassins of the Conservatives only axed two leaders in one Parliament because one of them was driving the economy off a cliff. Unless Burnham does the same, he should be safe until the General Election.

    After George Lansbury, it was 91 years before Labour drove a second leader from office.

    After Balfour (1911) and Austen Chamberlain (1922) it was not until 1965 that another Conservative leader was removed solely by his party. Admittedly, they then proceeded to start sacking them as though they were the Nuremberg executioners.

    Burnham will, I would guess, not be very good, but he will be able to get away with quite a lot by simply blaming his predecessor.

    Which is also one reason why we can be pretty sure Rachel Reeves will not be in his cabinet at all. Harder to make that case if you have the same chancellor as Starmer.
    76 years not 91. Blair was quite clearly driven from office by Labour at Brown's instigation. The process was the same. Blair resigned only to preserve his dignity, as did Starmer, because unlike his successor Blair was deeply unpopular on departure and he knew he could not win what would have been an inevitable leadership challenge had he stayed.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong. Blair had already said he was leaving, and he could have survived Brown's heavy handed bungling attempts to remove him if (a) he hadn't done that and (b) he'd actually made an effort. He didn't bother, because he calculated that to do so for another few months in office was not worth the hassle.

    Starmer went because he would have lost a leadership election had one been triggered, and he knew it was about to be triggered. He had in fact managed to forestall it with the Gorton by-election earlier, but had lost the support he needed for a repeat performance.

    Brown would not have done so, if only because it would have been highly damaging to his image as a unifier which may have been mad but was important to him.

    So it's 91 years.
    Look, we've been through this several times, and you're wrong.

    You say that Blair had already said he was leaving but in fact he was forced out long before the timing of his choosing. That is, Blair had said in September 2004 that "he would serve a "full third term" but would not contest a fourth general election". But in September 2006 the mounting pressure from Brown and within the party forced him to announce that he would be gone within a year.

    Even then he tried to cling on without setting a date and only went after the disasterous May 2007 election results in the face of what would otherwise have been an inevitable formal leadership challenge. Brown, like Burnham, waited for the PM to announce his departure before seeking nominations as leader.

    Brown very clearly forced Blair out, to a timetable not of his choosing.
    were you asleep during the 2005 general election campaign where it was obvious from the campaign hat Blair was going to step down at some stage rather than serve a full term?
    Blair went along with promoting Brown during the 2005 campaign because anything else would have risked his 3rd term as PM, but it was done in a way that put nothing on the record. The salient point is that afterwards for another 15 months all that remained on the record from Blair was his 2004 statement that he would serve out a full term. Which he would have done had he been able to.

    Blair was forced out.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,957
    edited 9:06AM

    tlg86 said:



    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Err, no. You don't get to tell people what they can and can't talk about. The police and the likes of Hodges have behaved disgracefully.
    I wouldn't trust a copper further than I can throw this car I am sitting in, but they can't win with the PB right.

    The PB right always want to know the ethnicity of the suspect so they told you the guy was white British, He was white British so they didn't racially profile him and immediately grab for the political terrorism klaxon. As far as procedure is concerned I don't see what more they could have done.
    All they had to say is that they did not know the motive of the attack and investigations were ongoing. Saying specifically that there was no evidence of it being politically motivated gave the impression that they did know what had gone on (e.g. they think she knew her attacker).
    It's not the police's fault if people can't understand the difference in meaning between "there is currently no evidence of X" and "we have evidence that categorically rules out X". Why not just wait until their investigation is concluded and someone is charged for this horrific crime?
    I think, as has been pointed out by a different poster previously, the failure was the media's. They reported it as, "police rule out X."

    Perhaps the police could have been a bit more neutral and say something like, "we're still in the early stages of the investigation and haven't ruled anything out," but I would guess the media would have sexed that up as, "police investigating Widdecombe murder as political terrorism!"
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 1,066
    HYUFD said:

    It largely depends if Burnham wins the next general election or not. If he doesn't then Farage or Badenoch would be next PM. If he does then it depends how long Labour remains ahead in the polls, if the right reunite and they fall behind in the polls it might be a more centrist New Labour figure like Streeting who replaces him rather than just more leftism with Ed Miliband or Rayner

    Also, in the event that Burnham wins the next election, there must be a very reasonable chance that a future Labour government would introduce some sort of proportional representation which in turn would totally shake up politics and how the parties interact with each other.

    I was only half joking about Bev Craig being the next PM.

    Labour leader being PM after next election very possible.

    Labout leader after next election introducing PR quite possible

    Centre left parties form government following 2034 election possible

    Andy Burnham being that leader in 2034, not impossible

    Any next PM / Labour leader could well not even be close to being an MP yet
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,328

    HYUFD said:

    It largely depends if Burnham wins the next general election or not. If he doesn't then Farage or Badenoch would be next PM. If he does then it depends how long Labour remains ahead in the polls, if the right reunite and they fall behind in the polls it might be a more centrist New Labour figure like Streeting who replaces him rather than just more leftism with Ed Miliband or Rayner

    Also, in the event that Burnham wins the next election, there must be a very reasonable chance that a future Labour government would introduce some sort of proportional representation which in turn would totally shake up politics and how the parties interact with each other.

    I was only half joking about Bev Craig being the next PM.

    Labour leader being PM after next election very possible.

    Labout leader after next election introducing PR quite possible

    Centre left parties form government following 2034 election possible

    Andy Burnham being that leader in 2034, not impossible

    Any next PM / Labour leader could well not even be close to being an MP yet
    Based on a couple of decades of precedent, it's quite possible that the next Conservative PM isn't yet an MP. Which, given the non-negotiables that Kemi seems keen to impose on her party, is not a cheery prospect.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,404

    tlg86 said:



    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Err, no. You don't get to tell people what they can and can't talk about. The police and the likes of Hodges have behaved disgracefully.
    I wouldn't trust a copper further than I can throw this car I am sitting in, but they can't win with the PB right.

    The PB right always want to know the ethnicity of the suspect so they told you the guy was white British, He was white British so they didn't racially profile him and immediately grab for the political terrorism klaxon. As far as procedure is concerned I don't see what more they could have done.
    All they had to say is that they did not know the motive of the attack and investigations were ongoing. Saying specifically that there was no evidence of it being politically motivated gave the impression that they did know what had gone on (e.g. they think she knew her attacker).
    It's not the police's fault if people can't understand the difference in meaning between "there is currently no evidence of X" and "we have evidence that categorically rules out X". Why not just wait until their investigation is concluded and someone is charged for this horrific crime?
    I'm not sure if there was a "currently" in there, and it was said after it was known the suspect had driven from Rotherham and back, so it was not just a burglary gone wrong and something was up.

    My archeologist friends would say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" but we are so used to it being used as a non-denial denial (which journalists don't call people out on) that a firm statement of lack of evidence is taken as a denial.

    Why police just say they don't know, I don't know. It's not their job to ascribe motive, that's for the prosecutor (to decide if terrorism charges are justified) and the court to decide.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,796
    This is their own account of one of killings, which looks very much like a confession of murder to me.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/2076798878595342620
    On July 13, 2026, at approximately 7:00 AM ET, ICE was conducting targeted surveillance on the last known address of an illegal alien with a final order of removal. An illegal alien departed the residence in a vehicle. ICE law enforcement attempted to conduct a vehicle stop. The vehicle attempted to flee the scene and, fearing for public safety, an officer discharged his weapon.

    The driver of the vehicle was struck, and emergency services were immediately contacted. He passed away from his injuries.

    The Biddeford Police Department and FBI responded to the scene. DHS OIG has been notified and like all discharge of firearms this will be investigated. This is a developing situation, and we will update the public when more information is available.


    26 year old, with work permit and social security number, and his three year old kid in the car...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,528
    'The sister of US Senator Lindsey Graham will serve as his temporary replacement after the South Carolina lawmaker died from an aortic tear on Saturday.

    Darline Graham Nordone was formally chosen by South Carolina Governor Henry McMaster on Monday, who introduced her as Graham's "darling little sister" who would "finish his work for him now".

    "It is such an honour. Lindsey has always been there for me and now I will be there for him," Nordone said.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c05y3rlvp20o
  • eekeek Posts: 34,528

    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Malmesbury and others will be greatly cheered by this from the excellent Joshua Rozenberg showing that the gigantic process and regulatory state not only provides a decent number of comfortable jobs for the boys but has the added attraction that it doesn't work, leading to further investigation into the regulators (answering Juvenal's great question 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes' namely, an infinite regress of regulators) which will surely result in further and better paid and worse regulatory structures.

    The spider diagram is one to send the thoughtful reader into a state of trance.


    https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/regulator-loses-its-way?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=79530&post_id=206831753&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1mnpci&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

    It is one of the differences that I have with the estimable @Cyclefree. She appears to believe more regulation is the way forward, my experience is that regulation, and the creation of quasi autonomous bureaucracies like the LSB and many others in that diagram, often makes things worse. It emphasises form over substance and creates lots of additional cost with minimal reward. Our regulatory sector is, in my view, a serious and underrated impediment to growth in this country.
    The big problem I think is a system of private and quasi-independent state monopolies that depends on regulation to function properly, where the regulators simply aren't to to the task. I am thinking eg OFWAT, OFCOM.

    Simply abolishing them would have a limited effect but isn't a solution either.
    Also functions such as building inspection, which appears to now be limited to checking mountains of paperwork, rather than, as a random example, that the building wall isn’t covered in flammable cladding.
    So why do we do it this way?

    I suspect the answer is something like- the public wants the regulations but doesn't want to pay for boots-on-the-ground regulators.

    So we have placebo regulation by paperwork instead. Because who is going to win an election on a platform of spending more on Trading Standards and Building Control?
    I’m at a loss as to why people think building control don’t visits sites - they do

    When it comes to material it’s harder because you need to know the composition of the material and that is going to be we are installing these show label and go online to check the composition - because destructive tests are very expensive
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,404
    edited 9:18AM
    Nigelb said:

    This is their own account of one of killings, which looks very much like a confession of murder to me.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/2076798878595342620
    On July 13, 2026, at approximately 7:00 AM ET, ICE was conducting targeted surveillance on the last known address of an illegal alien with a final order of removal. An illegal alien departed the residence in a vehicle. ICE law enforcement attempted to conduct a vehicle stop. The vehicle attempted to flee the scene and, fearing for public safety, an officer discharged his weapon.

    The driver of the vehicle was struck, and emergency services were immediately contacted. He passed away from his injuries.

    The Biddeford Police Department and FBI responded to the scene. DHS OIG has been notified and like all discharge of firearms this will be investigated. This is a developing situation, and we will update the public when more information is available.


    26 year old, with work permit and social security number, and his three year old kid in the car...
    A car is capable of being used as a lethal weapon, depending on the circumstances, shooting the driver may be reasonable. We are pussies about reasonable force in self-defence in the UK.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,822
    Nigelb said:

    This is their own account of one of killings, which looks very much like a confession of murder to me.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/2076798878595342620
    On July 13, 2026, at approximately 7:00 AM ET, ICE was conducting targeted surveillance on the last known address of an illegal alien with a final order of removal. An illegal alien departed the residence in a vehicle. ICE law enforcement attempted to conduct a vehicle stop. The vehicle attempted to flee the scene and, fearing for public safety, an officer discharged his weapon.

    The driver of the vehicle was struck, and emergency services were immediately contacted. He passed away from his injuries.

    The Biddeford Police Department and FBI responded to the scene. DHS OIG has been notified and like all discharge of firearms this will be investigated. This is a developing situation, and we will update the public when more information is available.


    26 year old, with work permit and social security number, and his three year old kid in the car...
    Worth noting that this story of ICE killings is making relatively little noise. A few months ago it would have been (and was) massive. We have become accustomed to internal domestic Trumpism and relegating it to 'other news'.

    As November elections approach it will be interesting to see if this changes.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,088
    HYUFD said:

    'The sister of US Senator Lindsey Graham will serve as his temporary replacement after the South Carolina lawmaker died from an aortic tear on Saturday.

    Darline Graham Nordone was formally chosen by South Carolina Governor Henry McMaster on Monday, who introduced her as Graham's "darling little sister" who would "finish his work for him now".

    "It is such an honour. Lindsey has always been there for me and now I will be there for him," Nordone said.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c05y3rlvp20o

    Without expressing any personal admiration for Governor McMaster, you have to say that is actually quite fitting on a personal level given how close the two were as well as an astute political move.

    I think it probable McMaster goes for the nomination himself though.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,000
    edited 9:23AM
    Further to the debates on building control, I was dealing with them concerning this one yesterday - a window swinging out over the busy pavement of a route to the town centre. I criticise my Council's attention to detail, but when half of their budget in real terms has been removed in under 20 years, it is hardly a surprise. Here I can still talk to a Duty Planner, and directly to Building Control.



    That is at head height for someone using a mobility aid, and a danger for any long cane vision impaired person. He pavement parking is endemic so they go more along walls. It can swing about 1/3 of the way across the pavement.

    I'm surprised it got past anyone, unless it was left off the plans, since eg a garage in that position would be required to have a roller shutter door, not something that swings out. It's also a surprise that the person doing the conversion (from a shop unit to a bungalow) did not notice - any purchaser with half a brain cell to rub together will challenge them on on it. A solution would have been sash or tilt-and-turn windows, or fixed lower panes. The cause could be inattention to detail or lazy assumption.

    When i spoke to building control, they looked at it and said if I send in my photo by email they will "have a word". I have done that, and we shall see.

    For me there are two problems with building control. One is that it was part-privatised by Maggie in the 1984 Building Control Act, which allows private BCOs to be appointed, which removes independence and hides the reports etc (which should be published as per Planning docs). This was partly rolled back for tall buildings after Grenfell.

    The other is a now 45-year ingrained theology that "private sector is good", "public sector is bad", and that the way to fix the public sector is to CUT CUT CUT, pay the staff poorly, employ few, then CUT some more, That is exact opposite of the values applied to the private sector by the same people, and is crazy on its face.

    That to me is an indicator that the Tories need a philosophy of public service, which at the moment they do not have, and a more sustainable political position. I'd suggest it would be a beneficial contrast to the cavemen of Ref UK.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,660
    Morning all. Weather improving this morning; sunnier and warmer.

    Looking at the header, Burnham is even in post yet and it's suggested we discuss his successor.

    Surely there's something else we could argue over. When is it going to rain again, for example. Wilson appointed Denis Howell as Mnister for Drought and the heavens opened. IIRC it rained for the proverbial forty days and forty nights!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,796
    The Fox is surprisingly eloquent in explaining why he dropped out of the Clacton contest.
    https://x.com/ProtectTheWild_/status/2076728474308431970
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,088

    Nigelb said:

    This is their own account of one of killings, which looks very much like a confession of murder to me.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/2076798878595342620
    On July 13, 2026, at approximately 7:00 AM ET, ICE was conducting targeted surveillance on the last known address of an illegal alien with a final order of removal. An illegal alien departed the residence in a vehicle. ICE law enforcement attempted to conduct a vehicle stop. The vehicle attempted to flee the scene and, fearing for public safety, an officer discharged his weapon.

    The driver of the vehicle was struck, and emergency services were immediately contacted. He passed away from his injuries.

    The Biddeford Police Department and FBI responded to the scene. DHS OIG has been notified and like all discharge of firearms this will be investigated. This is a developing situation, and we will update the public when more information is available.


    26 year old, with work permit and social security number, and his three year old kid in the car...
    A car is capable of being used as a lethal weapon, depending on the circumstances, shooting the driver may be reasonable. We are pussies about reasonable force in self-defence in the UK.
    Self defence at this point given their mad propensity for shooting people at the wheel may be more running over the twat of an ICE officer.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,088
    edited 9:21AM

    Morning all. Weather improving this morning; sunnier and warmer.

    Looking at the header, Burnham is even in post yet and it's suggested we discuss his successor.

    Surely there's something else we could argue over. When is it going to rain again, for example. Wilson appointed Denis Howell as Mnister for Drought and the heavens opened. IIRC it rained for the proverbial forty days and forty nights!

    I did not Noah bout that one.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,962
    edited 9:24AM

    Heaven is radical cosmetic surgery. Or is it hell?



    https://x.com/JasonReidx/status/2076652480696393956?s=20

    Right Angles?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,822
    edited 9:25AM
    HYUFD said:

    It largely depends if Burnham wins the next general election or not. If he doesn't then Farage or Badenoch would be next PM. If he does then it depends how long Labour remains ahead in the polls, if the right reunite and they fall behind in the polls it might be a more centrist New Labour figure like Streeting who replaces him rather than just more leftism with Ed Miliband or Rayner

    Who will win the next election is a game of elimination. It is pretty universally agreed on the centre ground that no-one deserves to, but there will of course be a PM after the next election.

    It's a subject for Sherlock's great dictum (true of course only if slightly amended, but the point is clear):

    when you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth

    As it can only be the leader of Lab/Con/Ref it is simple.

    It can't be Reform because they can't win. It can't be Kemi because she isn't PM material and she can't win and there is no-one decent to replace her. So it's Labour, or Labour led, which means almost 100% certainly Burnham. DYOR.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,796
    edited 9:29AM

    Nigelb said:

    This is their own account of one of killings, which looks very much like a confession of murder to me.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/2076798878595342620
    On July 13, 2026, at approximately 7:00 AM ET, ICE was conducting targeted surveillance on the last known address of an illegal alien with a final order of removal. An illegal alien departed the residence in a vehicle. ICE law enforcement attempted to conduct a vehicle stop. The vehicle attempted to flee the scene and, fearing for public safety, an officer discharged his weapon.

    The driver of the vehicle was struck, and emergency services were immediately contacted. He passed away from his injuries.

    The Biddeford Police Department and FBI responded to the scene. DHS OIG has been notified and like all discharge of firearms this will be investigated. This is a developing situation, and we will update the public when more information is available.


    26 year old, with work permit and social security number, and his three year old kid in the car...
    A car is capable of being used as a lethal weapon, depending on the circumstances, shooting the driver may be reasonable. We are pussies about reasonable force in self-defence in the UK.
    In contrast to previous cases, they don't claim it was being used as a weapon (and eye witness video confirms it wasn't), or that the shooter feared for his own safety .
    There's no case for "reasonable self defence" in a situation instigated by the shooter, and where on his own evidence he shot someone simply for driving away.

    It's not being a "pussy" to question giving government thugs effectively unlimited immunity to kill people.

    And Vance confirmed last time around that it what is intended.
    https://x.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/2076378305285005553
    "He is protected by absolute immunity. He was doing his job. ” (2026)

    - U.S. Vice President JD Vance on the ICE member who killed U.S. citizen Renee Nicole Good.


    That is also, of course, completely outside of the actual law.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,404
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is their own account of one of killings, which looks very much like a confession of murder to me.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/2076798878595342620
    On July 13, 2026, at approximately 7:00 AM ET, ICE was conducting targeted surveillance on the last known address of an illegal alien with a final order of removal. An illegal alien departed the residence in a vehicle. ICE law enforcement attempted to conduct a vehicle stop. The vehicle attempted to flee the scene and, fearing for public safety, an officer discharged his weapon.

    The driver of the vehicle was struck, and emergency services were immediately contacted. He passed away from his injuries.

    The Biddeford Police Department and FBI responded to the scene. DHS OIG has been notified and like all discharge of firearms this will be investigated. This is a developing situation, and we will update the public when more information is available.


    26 year old, with work permit and social security number, and his three year old kid in the car...
    A car is capable of being used as a lethal weapon, depending on the circumstances, shooting the driver may be reasonable. We are pussies about reasonable force in self-defence in the UK.
    In contrast to previous cases, they don't claim it was being used as a weapon (and eye witness video confirms it wasn't), or that the shooter feared for his own safety .
    There's no case for "reasonable self defence" in a situation instigated by the shooter, and where on his own evidence he shot someone simply for driving away.

    It's not being a "pussy" to question giving government thugs effectively unlimited immunity to kill people.
    They are claiming public safety, ie someone else's life was at risk.

    Yes it may be bullshit but is a possible defence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,796
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is their own account of one of killings, which looks very much like a confession of murder to me.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/2076798878595342620
    On July 13, 2026, at approximately 7:00 AM ET, ICE was conducting targeted surveillance on the last known address of an illegal alien with a final order of removal. An illegal alien departed the residence in a vehicle. ICE law enforcement attempted to conduct a vehicle stop. The vehicle attempted to flee the scene and, fearing for public safety, an officer discharged his weapon.

    The driver of the vehicle was struck, and emergency services were immediately contacted. He passed away from his injuries.

    The Biddeford Police Department and FBI responded to the scene. DHS OIG has been notified and like all discharge of firearms this will be investigated. This is a developing situation, and we will update the public when more information is available.


    26 year old, with work permit and social security number, and his three year old kid in the car...
    Worth noting that this story of ICE killings is making relatively little noise. A few months ago it would have been (and was) massive. We have become accustomed to internal domestic Trumpism and relegating it to 'other news'.

    As November elections approach it will be interesting to see if this changes.

    For those not aware, this shooting happened in Maine.
    Collins is Chair of the Appropriations Committee, and voted to give ICE another $70bn.

    She has expressed concern.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,677

    tlg86 said:



    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    They have a suspect in custody, as I understand it. That doesn't feel like failure to me. How about we leave them alone to do their job.
    I agree

    Using Widdecome's death to score points is distasteful

    Err, no. You don't get to tell people what they can and can't talk about. The police and the likes of Hodges have behaved disgracefully.
    I wouldn't trust a copper further than I can throw this car I am sitting in, but they can't win with the PB right.

    The PB right always want to know the ethnicity of the suspect so they told you the guy was white British, He was white British so they didn't racially profile him and immediately grab for the political terrorism klaxon. As far as procedure is concerned I don't see what more they could have done.
    All they had to say is that they did not know the motive of the attack and investigations were ongoing. Saying specifically that there was no evidence of it being politically motivated gave the impression that they did know what had gone on (e.g. they think she knew her attacker).
    It's not the police's fault if people can't understand the difference in meaning between "there is currently no evidence of X" and "we have evidence that categorically rules out X". Why not just wait until their investigation is concluded and someone is charged for this horrific crime?
    I'm not sure if there was a "currently" in there, and it was said after it was known the suspect had driven from Rotherham and back, so it was not just a burglary gone wrong and something was up.

    My archeologist friends would say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" but we are so used to it being used as a non-denial denial (which journalists don't call people out on) that a firm statement of lack of evidence is taken as a denial.

    Why police just say they don't know, I don't know. It's not their job to ascribe motive, that's for the prosecutor (to decide if terrorism charges are justified) and the court to decide.
    Here is what is in the Guardian report:

    Over the weekend, the assistant chief constable of Devon and Cornwall police, Matt Longman, told reporters: “At this point there is still no information to suggest that this is a terrorism-related incident and at this point we are not looking for anyone else in connection with this murder. At this stage, there is nothing to suggest that it was politically motivated.”

    Note the "at this point" and "at this stage".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,796
    FF43 said:

    Heaven is radical cosmetic surgery. Or is it hell?



    https://x.com/JasonReidx/status/2076652480696393956?s=20

    Right Angles?
    Who is this 'nigle' who will make us proud ?
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,531
    AnthonyT said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Just want to go back to something @Richard_Tyndall said on a previous thread:

    3. There was no evidence that it was political and the victim was not a high profile serving politician so would not be considered an immediate target for such a political killing.

    As such the police statements were neither couched nor pre-emptive. They were an accurate representation of the facts as understood at the time. When the facts changed so did the approach.

    Not everything in this life has to be a conspiracy.


    Anne Widdicombe might not have been an elected politician, but she was still very much in politics. The idea that not being elected meant she was any less likely to be a target is absurd.

    The police have bungled badly. They have reinforced the view that they are there to manage the optics of a case like this which is not ideal for the Left.

    It's not the job of the police to manage the paranoid fantasies of the extremely online.
    No, it's their job to investigate without fear or favour. They have failed badly.
    We cannot judge the investigation. Yet.

    We can judge their initial communications which were poor. The police should simply have said that they did not yet know the motive behind the murder, would investigate and would update as and when appropriate.

    Ruling anything out before they had investigated was foolish. Why the police keep making such silly mistakes is bizarre.
    Because "the police" are dozens of balkanised separate forces, of varying quality.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,602
    edited 9:34AM

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is their own account of one of killings, which looks very much like a confession of murder to me.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/2076798878595342620
    On July 13, 2026, at approximately 7:00 AM ET, ICE was conducting targeted surveillance on the last known address of an illegal alien with a final order of removal. An illegal alien departed the residence in a vehicle. ICE law enforcement attempted to conduct a vehicle stop. The vehicle attempted to flee the scene and, fearing for public safety, an officer discharged his weapon.

    The driver of the vehicle was struck, and emergency services were immediately contacted. He passed away from his injuries.

    The Biddeford Police Department and FBI responded to the scene. DHS OIG has been notified and like all discharge of firearms this will be investigated. This is a developing situation, and we will update the public when more information is available.


    26 year old, with work permit and social security number, and his three year old kid in the car...
    A car is capable of being used as a lethal weapon, depending on the circumstances, shooting the driver may be reasonable. We are pussies about reasonable force in self-defence in the UK.
    In contrast to previous cases, they don't claim it was being used as a weapon (and eye witness video confirms it wasn't), or that the shooter feared for his own safety .
    There's no case for "reasonable self defence" in a situation instigated by the shooter, and where on his own evidence he shot someone simply for driving away.

    It's not being a "pussy" to question giving government thugs effectively unlimited immunity to kill people.
    They are claiming public safety, ie someone else's life was at risk.

    Yes it may be bullshit but is a possible defence.
    Sounds good to me - every driver who close passes me on a cycle gets a round to the back of the head.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,628
    FF43 said:

    Heaven is radical cosmetic surgery. Or is it hell?



    https://x.com/JasonReidx/status/2076652480696393956?s=20

    Right Angles?
    It's a meme. From a facebook post under a death announcement about ten years ago:

    "RIP Goldie u r in heven now with da angles and princess Di sleep well little man xxx"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,528

    HYUFD said:

    It largely depends if Burnham wins the next general election or not. If he doesn't then Farage or Badenoch would be next PM. If he does then it depends how long Labour remains ahead in the polls, if the right reunite and they fall behind in the polls it might be a more centrist New Labour figure like Streeting who replaces him rather than just more leftism with Ed Miliband or Rayner

    Also, in the event that Burnham wins the next election, there must be a very reasonable chance that a future Labour government would introduce some sort of proportional representation which in turn would totally shake up politics and how the parties interact with each other.

    I was only half joking about Bev Craig being the next PM.

    Labour leader being PM after next election very possible.

    Labout leader after next election introducing PR quite possible

    Centre left parties form government following 2034 election possible

    Andy Burnham being that leader in 2034, not impossible

    Any next PM / Labour leader could well not even be close to being an MP yet
    Though if we get PR a Tory and Reform government also becomes much more likely, even if a Labour, Green and LD government would probably be the likeliest outcome of a 2034 general election
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,528
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    It largely depends if Burnham wins the next general election or not. If he doesn't then Farage or Badenoch would be next PM. If he does then it depends how long Labour remains ahead in the polls, if the right reunite and they fall behind in the polls it might be a more centrist New Labour figure like Streeting who replaces him rather than just more leftism with Ed Miliband or Rayner

    Who will win the next election is a game of elimination. It is pretty universally agreed on the centre ground that no-one deserves to, but there will of course be a PM after the next election.

    It's a subject for Sherlock's great dictum (true of course only if slightly amended, but the point is clear):

    when you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth

    As it can only be the leader of Lab/Con/Ref it is simple.

    It can't be Reform because they can't win. It can't be Kemi because she isn't PM material and she can't win and there is no-one decent to replace her. So it's Labour, or Labour led, which means almost 100% certainly Burnham. DYOR.

    It could be Reform if they got back up to 25 to 30%+ consistently. It could be the Tories if Kemi translates her 27% favourable rating to Conservative voteshare. It could also of course be Burnham if he got Labour to a bounce approaching 30% and held it
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,796

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is their own account of one of killings, which looks very much like a confession of murder to me.

    https://x.com/DHSgov/status/2076798878595342620
    On July 13, 2026, at approximately 7:00 AM ET, ICE was conducting targeted surveillance on the last known address of an illegal alien with a final order of removal. An illegal alien departed the residence in a vehicle. ICE law enforcement attempted to conduct a vehicle stop. The vehicle attempted to flee the scene and, fearing for public safety, an officer discharged his weapon.

    The driver of the vehicle was struck, and emergency services were immediately contacted. He passed away from his injuries.

    The Biddeford Police Department and FBI responded to the scene. DHS OIG has been notified and like all discharge of firearms this will be investigated. This is a developing situation, and we will update the public when more information is available.


    26 year old, with work permit and social security number, and his three year old kid in the car...
    A car is capable of being used as a lethal weapon, depending on the circumstances, shooting the driver may be reasonable. We are pussies about reasonable force in self-defence in the UK.
    In contrast to previous cases, they don't claim it was being used as a weapon (and eye witness video confirms it wasn't), or that the shooter feared for his own safety .
    There's no case for "reasonable self defence" in a situation instigated by the shooter, and where on his own evidence he shot someone simply for driving away.

    It's not being a "pussy" to question giving government thugs effectively unlimited immunity to kill people.
    They are claiming public safety, ie someone else's life was at risk.

    Yes it may be bullshit but is a possible defence.
    They present zero evidence for that, and there is none.
    The guy had his three year old kid in the car and wasn't even the immigrant they were targeting.

    You're effectively saying immigration officers should have license to shoot anyone, on the flimsiest of pretexts.
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