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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,846

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Today is the day that the war in Ukraine has outlasted World War I, the Great War.

    Ukraine is still fighting back, and in the last few months actually making headway at a cost of over a thousand Russian soldiers a day.

    The Peninsular War lasted almost six years.

    I understand that many Ukrainians regard the war as having lasted twelve years already, since the 27th February 2014 Russian military occupation of Crimea.
    Yes many Ukranians will say the war has been ongoing since 2014.

    The WWI comparison today is from 24th Feb 2022, when the “SMO” started with the assault on Kiyv.
    World War 2 arguably started in 1937 or even 1931vwith the Japanese invasion of Manchuria
    Vietnam (which is arguably a slightly closer analogue) lasted two decades.
  • PeterCairnsPeterCairns Posts: 110

    Thief was heard muttering while trying to steal car

    “Come on Locke, fuckin’ well open, you Kant!”


    Car thief died after philopshy professor put him in headlock

    Burglar attacked academic like a ‘trapped wild animal’ before cardiac arrest, inquest told


    A thief died after a professor put him in a headlock, an inquest has heard.

    Daniel Smith, 35, tried to use a car belonging to Charles Thame, a philosophy professor, as a getaway vehicle – but the academic climbed into the passenger seat and put him in a headlock.

    The thief was running from police from an unconnected burglary in Axminster, Devon, in July 2022, when he stole Prof Thame’s car keys from his unlocked house, according to The Times.

    As Smith tried to drive away in the vehicle, Prof Thame, who teaches at Thammasat University, Bangkok, Thailand, jumped into the passenger seat.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/06/10/car-thief-died-professor-headlock-burglary-devon/

    Reminds me of the Joke;

    "We need a Doctor..."
    "I am a doctor!..."
    "This man is having a heart attack!..."
    "I am a Doctor of Philosophy!"
    "But he's going to Die!!!!"
    "We're all going to Die!""

    Peter.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,458
    Something obviously off about the poll is if you add 35, 24 and 13 you get 72, leaving 28% unaccounted. So either Count Binface is coming up the inside rail or those numbers have to include Don't Knows and Won't Says. Survation 2nd poll had 40% Burnham, 32% Reform, 6% Restore, 4% Other, 10% Don't Know, 8% Won't Say. If we assume the DK/WS is the same as Survation you'll get headline 43% Burnham, 29% Reform 16% Restore.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,335

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Today is the day that the war in Ukraine has outlasted World War I, the Great War.

    Ukraine is still fighting back, and in the last few months actually making headway at a cost of over a thousand Russian soldiers a day.

    The Peninsular War lasted almost six years.

    I understand that many Ukrainians regard the war as having lasted twelve years already, since the 27th February 2014 Russian military occupation of Crimea.
    Yes many Ukranians will say the war has been ongoing since 2014.

    The WWI comparison today is from 24th Feb 2022, when the “SMO” started with the assault on Kiyv.
    World War 2 arguably started in 1937 or even 1931vwith the Japanese invasion of Manchuria
    If you consider the Hundred Years war as 1337 to about 1460, then arguably WW1 and WW2 are the same conflict.
    1905-1945 - the war of the New Imperial powers, as the rising empires of japan and Germany rose to challenge the longer-established empires of Britain, France and Russia. Though you could make a case to extending the start back to 1864-ish, and Prussia's rise to create Imperial Germany.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 8,122

    Seems amazing that this hasn't happened earlier.

    A primary school with just two pupils is to close at the end of the summer term.

    Ysgol Y Garreg in Penrhyndeudraeth, Gwynedd, currently has no pupils in nursery, reception or years one to five.

    Its remaining two Year six pupils are due to start secondary school in September.

    Cyngor Gwynedd's cabinet voted unanimously to close the school on 31 August, saying it could not ignore the "seriousness of the situation".

    The council said falling pupil numbers across the local authority had made the decision unavoidable, despite the school's long history at the heart of the community.

    Dewi Jones, cabinet member for education, said the proposal was one of the most difficult decisions he had faced.

    "Nobody goes into education in order to close schools," he said.

    "Our ambition is to see schools thriving, children succeeding and communities staying strong."

    He paid tribute to the staff, governors, parents and community, saying Ysgol Y Garreg had served the area faithfully for over a century.

    I fear we're going to see more of this. The number of children is, in many areas, falling.
    This has been an issue in Highland for decades: a Council with an area larger than Wales and roughly the same population of Blackpool!!!


    The problem here its that even if it has no children now, there might be some in a year or to so we mothball the school not close it.

    It might seem daft to keep a school open with only a handful of kids, but if the alternative is busing five and six year olds for over at hour twice a day, sometimes it's the least worst option.

    Peter.
    It’s also an issue in Dumfries and Galloway, for example, Dalry High School has only 13 pupils and is at risk of closure, so it even affects secondary schools. OTOH, when Ardnamurchan High School opened in 2002, it allowed over 100 pupils to travel to school from home daily, instead of boarding in Fort William during the week,
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,470

    Good Morning one and all.

    Can I mention a personal celebration, please. Mrs C and I married 64 years ago today!

    Congrats, King (and Queen) Cole :)
    @OldKingCole Congratulations, well done for being in it for the long haul.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,452
    nico67 said:

    Unless Burnham finds a magic money tree then he’s destined to disappoint a lot of people .

    He seems to be going on about de-industrialisation . Exactly what is he going to do to combat that with no money and we’re living in a different world now .

    Indeed the concern is that voters will be even more merciless towards him . Having promised big changes there’s only so much that his better communication and apparent northern charm can cover up for the reality of the current financial situation.


    Alex Wickham
    @alexwickham

    NEW: Bond investors warn an Andy Burnham win in Makerfield next week will ignite another bout of market volatility (and this was before his WASPI compensation comments)

    Colin Lancaster, global co-head of discretionary macro and fixed income at Schonfeld, compares it to Brexit night. “Makerfield kind of gives me PTSD from Sunderland. This is another of these self-inflicted wounds where there just isn’t a plan.”

    “The PM is someone that is a known quantity in the market. We have an unknown quantity that can come through,” said Kostas Deslis, portfolio manager and senior trader at Neuberger.

    “He is a windsock,” said James Athey, fund manager at Marlborough Investment Management Ltd. “He is hard to price because he says a lot of confused, confusing and conflicting things.”

    “The domestic fiscal side is not settled,” said Lauren van Biljon, portfolio manager at Allspring.

    “Gilts will continue to be subject to political risk,” says Chris Iggo, chief investment officer at AXA IM Core at BNP Paribas Asset Management.

    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2064985081853198611
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,470

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Today is the day that the war in Ukraine has outlasted World War I, the Great War.

    Ukraine is still fighting back, and in the last few months actually making headway at a cost of over a thousand Russian soldiers a day.

    The Peninsular War lasted almost six years.

    I understand that many Ukrainians regard the war as having lasted twelve years already, since the 27th February 2014 Russian military occupation of Crimea.
    Yes many Ukranians will say the war has been ongoing since 2014.

    The WWI comparison today is from 24th Feb 2022, when the “SMO” started with the assault on Kiyv.
    World War 2 arguably started in 1937 or even 1931vwith the Japanese invasion of Manchuria
    If you consider the Hundred Years war as 1337 to about 1460, then arguably WW1 and WW2 are the same conflict.
    1905-1945 - the war of the New Imperial powers, as the rising empires of japan and Germany rose to challenge the longer-established empires of Britain, France and Russia. Though you could make a case to extending the start back to 1864-ish, and Prussia's rise to create Imperial Germany.
    Japan was allied to GB/UK/British Empire (depending on how you regard it) in WWI. Something the Americans allegedly fouled up.

    Again depends on ones interpretation of history.
  • PeterCairnsPeterCairns Posts: 110
    edited 10:55AM

    nico67 said:

    Unless Burnham finds a magic money tree then he’s destined to disappoint a lot of people .

    He seems to be going on about de-industrialisation . Exactly what is he going to do to combat that with no money and we’re living in a different world now .

    Indeed the concern is that voters will be even more merciless towards him . Having promised big changes there’s only so much that his better communication and apparent northern charm can cover up for the reality of the current financial situation.


    Alex Wickham
    @alexwickham

    NEW: Bond investors warn an Andy Burnham win in Makerfield next week will ignite another bout of market volatility (and this was before his WASPI compensation comments)

    Colin Lancaster, global co-head of discretionary macro and fixed income at Schonfeld, compares it to Brexit night. “Makerfield kind of gives me PTSD from Sunderland. This is another of these self-inflicted wounds where there just isn’t a plan.”

    “The PM is someone that is a known quantity in the market. We have an unknown quantity that can come through,” said Kostas Deslis, portfolio manager and senior trader at Neuberger.

    “He is a windsock,” said James Athey, fund manager at Marlborough Investment Management Ltd. “He is hard to price because he says a lot of confused, confusing and conflicting things.”

    “The domestic fiscal side is not settled,” said Lauren van Biljon, portfolio manager at Allspring.

    “Gilts will continue to be subject to political risk,” says Chris Iggo, chief investment officer at AXA IM Core at BNP Paribas Asset Management.

    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2064985081853198611
    To summaries;

    Continuity means Stability, Change causes Disruption, You can make money from that Change.

    People are reading this as Burnham being like Truss, but it's really about him bringing a change and being an uknown quantity.

    I think it's less the markets think he'll be much different to Starmer as seeing opportunities in him not being Starmer.

    Sometimes it's hard not to see these kinds of comments as less warnings of upheaval in the markets as attempts to create it.

    Peter.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,335

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Today is the day that the war in Ukraine has outlasted World War I, the Great War.

    Ukraine is still fighting back, and in the last few months actually making headway at a cost of over a thousand Russian soldiers a day.

    The Peninsular War lasted almost six years.

    I understand that many Ukrainians regard the war as having lasted twelve years already, since the 27th February 2014 Russian military occupation of Crimea.
    Yes many Ukranians will say the war has been ongoing since 2014.

    The WWI comparison today is from 24th Feb 2022, when the “SMO” started with the assault on Kiyv.
    World War 2 arguably started in 1937 or even 1931vwith the Japanese invasion of Manchuria
    If you consider the Hundred Years war as 1337 to about 1460, then arguably WW1 and WW2 are the same conflict.
    1905-1945 - the war of the New Imperial powers, as the rising empires of japan and Germany rose to challenge the longer-established empires of Britain, France and Russia. Though you could make a case to extending the start back to 1864-ish, and Prussia's rise to create Imperial Germany.
    Japan was allied to GB/UK/British Empire (depending on how you regard it) in WWI. Something the Americans allegedly fouled up.

    Again depends on ones interpretation of history.
    Yes, the Americans forced Britain to choose between an alliance with Japan and an alliance with the US.

    If Britain had chosen to renew the alliance with Japan, then the US might have ended up allied with Nazi Germany against Britain...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,470

    Seems amazing that this hasn't happened earlier.

    A primary school with just two pupils is to close at the end of the summer term.

    Ysgol Y Garreg in Penrhyndeudraeth, Gwynedd, currently has no pupils in nursery, reception or years one to five.

    Its remaining two Year six pupils are due to start secondary school in September.

    Cyngor Gwynedd's cabinet voted unanimously to close the school on 31 August, saying it could not ignore the "seriousness of the situation".

    The council said falling pupil numbers across the local authority had made the decision unavoidable, despite the school's long history at the heart of the community.

    Dewi Jones, cabinet member for education, said the proposal was one of the most difficult decisions he had faced.

    "Nobody goes into education in order to close schools," he said.

    "Our ambition is to see schools thriving, children succeeding and communities staying strong."

    He paid tribute to the staff, governors, parents and community, saying Ysgol Y Garreg had served the area faithfully for over a century.

    I fear we're going to see more of this. The number of children is, in many areas, falling.
    This has been an issue in Highland for decades: a Council with an area larger than Wales and roughly the same population of Blackpool!!!


    The problem here its that even if it has no children now, there might be some in a year or to so we mothball the school not close it.

    It might seem daft to keep a school open with only a handful of kids, but if the alternative is busing five and six year olds for over at hour twice a day, sometimes it's the least worst option.

    Peter.
    It’s also an issue in Dumfries and Galloway, for example, Dalry High School has only 13 pupils and is at risk of closure, so it even affects secondary schools. OTOH, when Ardnamurchan High School opened in 2002, it allowed over 100 pupils to travel to school from home daily, instead of boarding in Fort William during the week,
    Elder Grandson is Deputy Head of a small junior school and the Head and he have been charged with a) getting a decent Ofsted report and b) getting the numbers up.
    They're about to have an Ofsted visit, and one would have thought there was enough building in SE Essex to mean more children, but we wait to see.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,470

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Today is the day that the war in Ukraine has outlasted World War I, the Great War.

    Ukraine is still fighting back, and in the last few months actually making headway at a cost of over a thousand Russian soldiers a day.

    The Peninsular War lasted almost six years.

    I understand that many Ukrainians regard the war as having lasted twelve years already, since the 27th February 2014 Russian military occupation of Crimea.
    Yes many Ukranians will say the war has been ongoing since 2014.

    The WWI comparison today is from 24th Feb 2022, when the “SMO” started with the assault on Kiyv.
    World War 2 arguably started in 1937 or even 1931vwith the Japanese invasion of Manchuria
    If you consider the Hundred Years war as 1337 to about 1460, then arguably WW1 and WW2 are the same conflict.
    1905-1945 - the war of the New Imperial powers, as the rising empires of japan and Germany rose to challenge the longer-established empires of Britain, France and Russia. Though you could make a case to extending the start back to 1864-ish, and Prussia's rise to create Imperial Germany.
    Japan was allied to GB/UK/British Empire (depending on how you regard it) in WWI. Something the Americans allegedly fouled up.

    Again depends on ones interpretation of history.
    Yes, the Americans forced Britain to choose between an alliance with Japan and an alliance with the US.

    If Britain had chosen to renew the alliance with Japan, then the US might have ended up allied with Nazi Germany against Britain...
    AIUI the Americans wanted the North Pacific as an 'American Lake'.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,335

    nico67 said:

    Unless Burnham finds a magic money tree then he’s destined to disappoint a lot of people .

    He seems to be going on about de-industrialisation . Exactly what is he going to do to combat that with no money and we’re living in a different world now .

    Indeed the concern is that voters will be even more merciless towards him . Having promised big changes there’s only so much that his better communication and apparent northern charm can cover up for the reality of the current financial situation.


    Alex Wickham
    @alexwickham

    NEW: Bond investors warn an Andy Burnham win in Makerfield next week will ignite another bout of market volatility (and this was before his WASPI compensation comments)

    Colin Lancaster, global co-head of discretionary macro and fixed income at Schonfeld, compares it to Brexit night. “Makerfield kind of gives me PTSD from Sunderland. This is another of these self-inflicted wounds where there just isn’t a plan.”

    “The PM is someone that is a known quantity in the market. We have an unknown quantity that can come through,” said Kostas Deslis, portfolio manager and senior trader at Neuberger.

    “He is a windsock,” said James Athey, fund manager at Marlborough Investment Management Ltd. “He is hard to price because he says a lot of confused, confusing and conflicting things.”

    “The domestic fiscal side is not settled,” said Lauren van Biljon, portfolio manager at Allspring.

    “Gilts will continue to be subject to political risk,” says Chris Iggo, chief investment officer at AXA IM Core at BNP Paribas Asset Management.

    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2064985081853198611
    To summaries;

    Continuity means stability, change causes disruption, and you can make money from that Change.
    People are reading this as Burnham being like Truss, but it's really about him bringing some kind of cjange and being an uknown quantity.
    I think it's less the markets think he'll be much different compared to Starmer as seeing opportunities in him not being Starmer.

    Sometimes it's hard not to see these kinds of comments as less warnings of upheaval in the markets as attempts to create them.

    Peter.
    I think this shows the scarring left by the Truss Calamity. Any change of PM now creates a risk of a repeat of such an event. Is it 10%, 20%, higher, lower, in the case of Burnham? I don't know. One of the weaknesses of the model of using Metro Mayors as a way of training politicians to be PM is that they have limited independence in terms of tax-raising, and end up choosing how to spend the money they are provided by the Treasury, having no exposure to the tradeoffs in terms of taxation and borrowing involved.

    There are some spooky parallels as well, given the inflation pressures being created by the closure of the Strait of Hormuz. I hope KCIII's health is good.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,964

    nico67 said:

    Unless Burnham finds a magic money tree then he’s destined to disappoint a lot of people .

    He seems to be going on about de-industrialisation . Exactly what is he going to do to combat that with no money and we’re living in a different world now .

    Indeed the concern is that voters will be even more merciless towards him . Having promised big changes there’s only so much that his better communication and apparent northern charm can cover up for the reality of the current financial situation.


    Alex Wickham
    @alexwickham

    NEW: Bond investors warn an Andy Burnham win in Makerfield next week will ignite another bout of market volatility (and this was before his WASPI compensation comments)

    Colin Lancaster, global co-head of discretionary macro and fixed income at Schonfeld, compares it to Brexit night. “Makerfield kind of gives me PTSD from Sunderland. This is another of these self-inflicted wounds where there just isn’t a plan.”

    “The PM is someone that is a known quantity in the market. We have an unknown quantity that can come through,” said Kostas Deslis, portfolio manager and senior trader at Neuberger.

    “He is a windsock,” said James Athey, fund manager at Marlborough Investment Management Ltd. “He is hard to price because he says a lot of confused, confusing and conflicting things.”

    “The domestic fiscal side is not settled,” said Lauren van Biljon, portfolio manager at Allspring.

    “Gilts will continue to be subject to political risk,” says Chris Iggo, chief investment officer at AXA IM Core at BNP Paribas Asset Management.

    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2064985081853198611
    To summaries;

    Continuity means Stability, Change causes Disruption, You can make money from that Change.

    People are reading this as Burnham being like Truss, but it's really about him bringing a change and being an uknown quantity.

    I think it's less the markets think he'll be much different to Starmer as seeing opportunities in him not being Starmer.

    Sometimes it's hard not to see these kinds of comments as less warnings of upheaval in the markets as attempts to create it.

    Peter.
    He's just gone against a judgement made by the supreme court and said he's going to pay a group of chances a significant amount of money.

    We are already in the Liz Truss world of promising people who vote for her everything they wanted and we know how that played out.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,397
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite a depressing read.
    A serious problem far more worthy of attention - and investment - than the WASPI women.

    About 1 million 16- to 24-year-olds are not in employment, education or training – and the obstacles they face are bigger than ever. Those unemployed for a year or more explain how they are coping
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/jun/11/young-ambitious-out-of-work-unemployment

    My eldest was one of them. First class English degree. A year applying for everything and anything. Not even getting replies for most applications. Is now completing a Masters in HR and I have created a job for them in my business. Its *dire* out there. Catastrophic. And not just the lack of jobs, its the Fuck You attitude of recruiters that really damages them.
    Which is likely to prompt a fuck society response from a very large number of young people.
    That is bad news for all of us.

    This was quite telling. These two parties have VERY little in common other than offering fantasy solutions:
    ..While he doesn’t “particularly agree with any political party”, he believes only two, the Green party and Reform UK, “seem to have an agenda for young people”..

    The political mainstream needs to get its act together.
    Yet earlier you’re posting supporting policies that help bring this about purely to own Reform
    Posting someone else's tweet, which makes a fair rhetorical point about the internal contradiction of Reform's claims, doesn't mean I support that poster (whom I'd never previously heard of).
    It’s not a contradiction when they, as do others, think the various legislation enabled will harm workers.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,474
    edited 11:05AM
    Presumably that poll has a hefty "don't know" or "can't be bothered" score, because there's no way nearly 30% of voters are going to be voting Tory/LibDem/Green etc.?

    Burnham being that far ahead - which will be a larger margin once the non-voters are excluded - fits with both my expectations from the outset and with what other bits of data have been available. The odds of a Labour win have dropped to around 1/7 / 1.18, but that's still a decent return in just seven days.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,657
    edited 11:08AM
    Achtung all you Sammstisch Admiräle! There is a semi-lucid article in the NYT comparing the SMO to WW1.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/11/world/europe/ukraine-russia-world-war-i.html

    The most interesting stat is that when the Russians took Povrovsk, they did it at 75m per day which was slower than the Somme.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,781

    nico67 said:

    Unless Burnham finds a magic money tree then he’s destined to disappoint a lot of people .

    He seems to be going on about de-industrialisation . Exactly what is he going to do to combat that with no money and we’re living in a different world now .

    Indeed the concern is that voters will be even more merciless towards him . Having promised big changes there’s only so much that his better communication and apparent northern charm can cover up for the reality of the current financial situation.


    Alex Wickham
    @alexwickham

    NEW: Bond investors warn an Andy Burnham win in Makerfield next week will ignite another bout of market volatility (and this was before his WASPI compensation comments)

    Colin Lancaster, global co-head of discretionary macro and fixed income at Schonfeld, compares it to Brexit night. “Makerfield kind of gives me PTSD from Sunderland. This is another of these self-inflicted wounds where there just isn’t a plan.”

    “The PM is someone that is a known quantity in the market. We have an unknown quantity that can come through,” said Kostas Deslis, portfolio manager and senior trader at Neuberger.

    “He is a windsock,” said James Athey, fund manager at Marlborough Investment Management Ltd. “He is hard to price because he says a lot of confused, confusing and conflicting things.”

    “The domestic fiscal side is not settled,” said Lauren van Biljon, portfolio manager at Allspring.

    “Gilts will continue to be subject to political risk,” says Chris Iggo, chief investment officer at AXA IM Core at BNP Paribas Asset Management.

    https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2064985081853198611
    To summaries;

    Continuity means stability, change causes disruption, and you can make money from that Change.
    People are reading this as Burnham being like Truss, but it's really about him bringing some kind of cjange and being an uknown quantity.
    I think it's less the markets think he'll be much different compared to Starmer as seeing opportunities in him not being Starmer.

    Sometimes it's hard not to see these kinds of comments as less warnings of upheaval in the markets as attempts to create them.

    Peter.
    I think this shows the scarring left by the Truss Calamity. Any change of PM now creates a risk of a repeat of such an event. Is it 10%, 20%, higher, lower, in the case of Burnham? I don't know. One of the weaknesses of the model of using Metro Mayors as a way of training politicians to be PM is that they have limited independence in terms of tax-raising, and end up choosing how to spend the money they are provided by the Treasury, having no exposure to the tradeoffs in terms of taxation and borrowing involved.

    There are some spooky parallels as well, given the inflation pressures being created by the closure of the Strait of Hormuz. I hope KCIII's health is good.
    The risks are that an incoming PM goes outside what’s acceptable to the bond markets.

    When you’re up to 100% of GDP in debt, nothing is more important than how that debt is priced.

    Truss made the mistake of offering open-ended energy subsidies, which spooked the markets at the time, it’s entirely possible that an incoming PM Burnham could make the same mistake, notwithstanding that gilt rates are now already above the Truss peak.

    It’s the old joke about owing the bank £1,000 is your problem, but owing them £100m is their problem.

    Well the British government owes £3trn, £3,000,000,000,000. The difference between 5% and 6% interest on that, is £30bn per year. Every percentage point, £30bn per year, and often in long-dated 5y, 10y bonds at fixed rates that will persist.

    The only ways out are a serious increase in tax incomes (not tax rates, Arthur Laffer is still alive), or serious cuts in spending.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,846

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Today is the day that the war in Ukraine has outlasted World War I, the Great War.

    Ukraine is still fighting back, and in the last few months actually making headway at a cost of over a thousand Russian soldiers a day.

    The Peninsular War lasted almost six years.

    I understand that many Ukrainians regard the war as having lasted twelve years already, since the 27th February 2014 Russian military occupation of Crimea.
    Yes many Ukranians will say the war has been ongoing since 2014.

    The WWI comparison today is from 24th Feb 2022, when the “SMO” started with the assault on Kiyv.
    World War 2 arguably started in 1937 or even 1931vwith the Japanese invasion of Manchuria
    If you consider the Hundred Years war as 1337 to about 1460, then arguably WW1 and WW2 are the same conflict.
    1905-1945 - the war of the New Imperial powers, as the rising empires of japan and Germany rose to challenge the longer-established empires of Britain, France and Russia. Though you could make a case to extending the start back to 1864-ish, and Prussia's rise to create Imperial Germany.
    Japan was allied to GB/UK/British Empire (depending on how you regard it) in WWI. Something the Americans allegedly fouled up.

    Again depends on ones interpretation of history.
    Japan fully annexed Korea in 1910. Their expansionist intentions were pretty clear well before WWI.

    I don't really believe there was much the western powers could have done to change significantly what was essentially generated by domestic Japanese politics. The alliance during WWI was largely used by Japan to advance its own interests.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taishō_era
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,781
    Dura_Ace said:

    Achtung all you Sammstisch Admiräle! There is a semi-lucid article in the NYT comparing the SMO to WW1.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/11/world/europe/ukraine-russia-world-war-i.html

    The most interesting stat is that when the Russians took Povrovsk, they did it at 75m per day which was slower than the Somme.

    Except that the Russians never actually took Pokrovsk. They sent two commandos to raise a flag and take photos for Putin to put on his press releases, but they never actually took the city despite several months of fighting around it, with tens of thousands of dead Russian soldiers.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,474
    edited 11:13AM
    Breaking: Healey resigns as Defence Sec

    Presumably he doesn't like the incoming defence review?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,234
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Healey resigns as Defence Sec

    Presumably he doesn't like the incoming defence review?

    That is big news
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,816
    nico67 said:

    Unless Burnham finds a magic money tree then he’s destined to disappoint a lot of people .

    He seems to be going on about de-industrialisation . Exactly what is he going to do to combat that with no money and we’re living in a different world now .

    Indeed the concern is that voters will be even more merciless towards him . Having promised big changes there’s only so much that his better communication and apparent northern charm can cover up for the reality of the current financial situation.

    It's going to provide an interesting real world test case for the relative importance in politics of 'delivering results' vs 'telling a story'.

    My view is that the extreme aversion to Keir Starmer (most unpopular PM in living memory) goes well beyond what you'd expect from the track record of his first two years. From this I conclude there's a fair chance that if his replacement is a lot stronger on charisma narrative and relatability this in and of itself will be sufficient to boost Labour's electoral appeal.

    And make no mistake this is why the change is being made. It's not about moving left, or going for growth, or doing this tax or that bit of spending, or whatever. Those debates will continue within the constraints of the global economy, the bond markets, the public finances, just as they would have done with no leader change.

    Of course there'll be some changes to policy and priorities (and I hope I agree with them) but that isn't the point of the exercise. The point of the exercise is to remove Sir Keir Starmer. The public have taken against him. They've said to Labour, if you carry on with this guy we'll vote you out. The party has listened.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,657
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Achtung all you Sammstisch Admiräle! There is a semi-lucid article in the NYT comparing the SMO to WW1.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/11/world/europe/ukraine-russia-world-war-i.html

    The most interesting stat is that when the Russians took Povrovsk, they did it at 75m per day which was slower than the Somme.

    Except that the Russians never actually took Pokrovsk. They sent two commandos to raise a flag and take photos for Putin to put on his press releases, but they never actually took the city despite several months of fighting around it, with tens of thousands of dead Russian soldiers.
    Tell the NYT then. Maybe they should stop fact checking and rely on Twitter.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,686
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Healey resigns as Defence Sec

    Presumably he doesn't like the incoming defence review?

    I did tip him as a long shot to replace Starmer.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,962
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Healey resigns as Defence Sec

    Presumably he doesn't like the incoming defence review?

    He accuses Starmer of putting the nation in peril:

    "Your DIP financial settlement falls well short of what is required for defence and the country at this dangerous time."
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,781
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Healey resigns as Defence Sec

    Presumably he doesn't like the incoming defence review?

    Ooh. Possible challenger for the leadership?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,686
    edited 11:17AM
    Thoughts and prayers for the solicitors involved.

    My cousin in the UK is moving house tomorrow, six people in the "chain". One of them this morning just sent an email saying he's £20,000 short and asking everyone else to jointly make up the difference or the entire deal folds.

    https://x.com/archer_rs/status/2064962410620833914

    Edit - the whole thread is hilarious when you read the updates.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,657
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Healey resigns as Defence Sec

    Presumably he doesn't like the incoming defence review?

    He was the future, once. In 1981.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,686
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Healey resigns as Defence Sec

    Presumably he doesn't like the incoming defence review?

    Ooh. Possible challenger for the leadership?
    My legendary modesty prevents me from reminding you all that I tipped him at 50/1

    https://www.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2026/02/08/could-a-healey-or-benn-finally-lead-labour/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,234
    John Healey deserves enormous credit for putting our defence first and Starmer and Reeves should be the ones to go

    Labour could do worse than make him their leader
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,962
    An opportunity to bring Streeting back into the cabinet now that his leadership challenge has failed.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,591
    On thread: this would leave 'others' on 28%, which while not remarkable for a by-election would be surprisingly high for this one in particular, which AFAICS is a two-horse race plus another horse whose name is a bit like the first horse.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,194
    Everything Starmer and Reeves touches turns to s*it, doesn’t it? They’re both absolutely awful.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,041

    Thoughts and prayers for the solicitors involved.

    My cousin in the UK is moving house tomorrow, six people in the "chain". One of them this morning just sent an email saying he's £20,000 short and asking everyone else to jointly make up the difference or the entire deal folds.

    https://x.com/archer_rs/status/2064962410620833914

    Edit - the whole thread is hilarious when you read the updates.

    The absolute state of the whole thing
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,781
    Well said John Healey.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/11/john-healey-resigns-as-defence-secretary-labour-starmer/

    John Healey has resigned as defence secretary over Sir Keir Starmer’s defence investment plan (DIP).

    He has accused the Prime Minister of failing to “meet the moment” over his long-delayed proposal to boost the military.

    Sir Keir is expected to set out details of the plan as soon as tomorrow, but it is thought to have been watered down following a row between No 10, the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury.

    In a letter to Sir Keir, Mr Healey said the defence investment plan “falls well short of what is required for defence and the country at a dangerous time”.

    He added: “Without a DIP that meets the moment in this way, I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our Forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations, and could make the country less safe.”


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,816
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Healey resigns as Defence Sec

    Presumably he doesn't like the incoming defence review?

    Ooh. Possible challenger for the leadership?
    I wouldn't have thought so. Not sure what he's up to tbh.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,964

    Thoughts and prayers for the solicitors involved.

    My cousin in the UK is moving house tomorrow, six people in the "chain". One of them this morning just sent an email saying he's £20,000 short and asking everyone else to jointly make up the difference or the entire deal folds.

    https://x.com/archer_rs/status/2064962410620833914

    Edit - the whole thread is hilarious when you read the updates.

    The bit I don't get is if you have a chain moving tomorrow surely they've already exchanged...

    No way would I be in a chain both exchanging, buying, selling and moving on the same day...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,962

    Thoughts and prayers for the solicitors involved.

    My cousin in the UK is moving house tomorrow, six people in the "chain". One of them this morning just sent an email saying he's £20,000 short and asking everyone else to jointly make up the difference or the entire deal folds.

    https://x.com/archer_rs/status/2064962410620833914

    Edit - the whole thread is hilarious when you read the updates.

    That account is satirical so I assume it's a very well-judged wind up.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,964

    An opportunity to bring Streeting back into the cabinet now that his leadership challenge has failed.

    Who is willingly going to try and sell this defence spending review... Streeting isn't that stupid or desperate and it will be curious to see who is.

    If offered the job I wonder how many people would prefer to quit instead...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,452
    Sandpit said:

    Well said John Healey.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/11/john-healey-resigns-as-defence-secretary-labour-starmer/

    John Healey has resigned as defence secretary over Sir Keir Starmer’s defence investment plan (DIP).

    He has accused the Prime Minister of failing to “meet the moment” over his long-delayed proposal to boost the military.

    Sir Keir is expected to set out details of the plan as soon as tomorrow, but it is thought to have been watered down following a row between No 10, the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury.

    In a letter to Sir Keir, Mr Healey said the defence investment plan “falls well short of what is required for defence and the country at a dangerous time”.

    He added: “Without a DIP that meets the moment in this way, I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our Forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations, and could make the country less safe.”


    Wow. Starmer and Reeves are finished.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,781
    edited 11:25AM

    Thoughts and prayers for the solicitors involved.

    My cousin in the UK is moving house tomorrow, six people in the "chain". One of them this morning just sent an email saying he's £20,000 short and asking everyone else to jointly make up the difference or the entire deal folds.

    https://x.com/archer_rs/status/2064962410620833914

    Edit - the whole thread is hilarious when you read the updates.

    My parents were so happy to sell their house to a business-seller cash buyer, and they were downsizing cash buyers for their new place.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,452
    Kaboom!!!!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,365

    Everything Starmer and Reeves touches turns to s*it, doesn’t it? They’re both absolutely awful.

    That's being much too polite to them.

    And also letting Lammy, Miliband, Cooper, etc., etc., off far too lightly.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,397
    edited 11:27AM

    Thoughts and prayers for the solicitors involved.

    My cousin in the UK is moving house tomorrow, six people in the "chain". One of them this morning just sent an email saying he's £20,000 short and asking everyone else to jointly make up the difference or the entire deal folds.

    https://x.com/archer_rs/status/2064962410620833914

    Edit - the whole thread is hilarious when you read the updates.

    The absolute state of the whole thing
    It’s RS Archer

    Must be true

    He’s a well known fantasist and engagement farmer 🤣

    It will be Harry Eccles next
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,781

    Sandpit said:

    Well said John Healey.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/11/john-healey-resigns-as-defence-secretary-labour-starmer/

    John Healey has resigned as defence secretary over Sir Keir Starmer’s defence investment plan (DIP).

    He has accused the Prime Minister of failing to “meet the moment” over his long-delayed proposal to boost the military.

    Sir Keir is expected to set out details of the plan as soon as tomorrow, but it is thought to have been watered down following a row between No 10, the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury.

    In a letter to Sir Keir, Mr Healey said the defence investment plan “falls well short of what is required for defence and the country at a dangerous time”.

    He added: “Without a DIP that meets the moment in this way, I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our Forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations, and could make the country less safe.”


    Wow. Starmer and Reeves are finished.
    Yup, even more so than they were already.

    Give it an hour or so, and the Americans will be waking up to the news…
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,285
    MP since 1997, though didn't become a minister until 2009.
  • PeterCairnsPeterCairns Posts: 110
    What are the odds on Healy for the leadership?

    Doubt he's win but if you bet at long odds, you might do well to trading it.

    Peter.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,397

    Sandpit said:

    Well said John Healey.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/11/john-healey-resigns-as-defence-secretary-labour-starmer/

    John Healey has resigned as defence secretary over Sir Keir Starmer’s defence investment plan (DIP).

    He has accused the Prime Minister of failing to “meet the moment” over his long-delayed proposal to boost the military.

    Sir Keir is expected to set out details of the plan as soon as tomorrow, but it is thought to have been watered down following a row between No 10, the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury.

    In a letter to Sir Keir, Mr Healey said the defence investment plan “falls well short of what is required for defence and the country at a dangerous time”.

    He added: “Without a DIP that meets the moment in this way, I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our Forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations, and could make the country less safe.”


    Wow. Starmer and Reeves are finished.
    Savage and he’s not one of the usual suspects
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,452
    Healey is 22 for next leader
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,470

    Sandpit said:

    Well said John Healey.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/11/john-healey-resigns-as-defence-secretary-labour-starmer/

    John Healey has resigned as defence secretary over Sir Keir Starmer’s defence investment plan (DIP).

    He has accused the Prime Minister of failing to “meet the moment” over his long-delayed proposal to boost the military.

    Sir Keir is expected to set out details of the plan as soon as tomorrow, but it is thought to have been watered down following a row between No 10, the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury.

    In a letter to Sir Keir, Mr Healey said the defence investment plan “falls well short of what is required for defence and the country at a dangerous time”.

    He added: “Without a DIP that meets the moment in this way, I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our Forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations, and could make the country less safe.”


    Wow. Starmer and Reeves are finished.
    While I don't think Starmer has done 'the best possible' job overall, I really don't see why he's so unpopular.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,474

    An opportunity to bring Streeting back into the cabinet now that his leadership challenge has failed.

    Al Carns
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,474

    What are the odds on Healy for the leadership?

    Doubt he's win but if you bet at long odds, you might do well to trading it.

    Peter.

    Are Labour members looking for a leader who will prioritise defence above the myriadly more popular types of domestic spending?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,285
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Well said John Healey.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/11/john-healey-resigns-as-defence-secretary-labour-starmer/

    John Healey has resigned as defence secretary over Sir Keir Starmer’s defence investment plan (DIP).

    He has accused the Prime Minister of failing to “meet the moment” over his long-delayed proposal to boost the military.

    Sir Keir is expected to set out details of the plan as soon as tomorrow, but it is thought to have been watered down following a row between No 10, the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury.

    In a letter to Sir Keir, Mr Healey said the defence investment plan “falls well short of what is required for defence and the country at a dangerous time”.

    He added: “Without a DIP that meets the moment in this way, I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our Forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations, and could make the country less safe.”


    Wow. Starmer and Reeves are finished.
    Savage and he’s not one of the usual suspects
    And an excellent motive for resigning, even if it's fake. Total plausible deniability.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,828

    Sandpit said:

    Well said John Healey.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/11/john-healey-resigns-as-defence-secretary-labour-starmer/

    John Healey has resigned as defence secretary over Sir Keir Starmer’s defence investment plan (DIP).

    He has accused the Prime Minister of failing to “meet the moment” over his long-delayed proposal to boost the military.

    Sir Keir is expected to set out details of the plan as soon as tomorrow, but it is thought to have been watered down following a row between No 10, the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury.

    In a letter to Sir Keir, Mr Healey said the defence investment plan “falls well short of what is required for defence and the country at a dangerous time”.

    He added: “Without a DIP that meets the moment in this way, I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our Forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations, and could make the country less safe.”


    Wow. Starmer and Reeves are finished.
    Utterly devastating. The defence of the realm is the Government's highest priority. All over for those two surely. And an extraordinary example of Starmer's complete ineptitude in managing his own government. How could he have let this happen? He knew that Healey would have to stand down if he didn't provide the funding, and that would make his own position untenable.

    All eyes on Andy now. Who's the priority? Our armed forces, or the WASPI women?
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,297
    eek said:

    Thoughts and prayers for the solicitors involved.

    My cousin in the UK is moving house tomorrow, six people in the "chain". One of them this morning just sent an email saying he's £20,000 short and asking everyone else to jointly make up the difference or the entire deal folds.

    https://x.com/archer_rs/status/2064962410620833914

    Edit - the whole thread is hilarious when you read the updates.

    The bit I don't get is if you have a chain moving tomorrow surely they've already exchanged...

    No way would I be in a chain both exchanging, buying, selling and moving on the same day...
    England and Wales should have introduced the Scottish Legal and Mortgage system 40 years ago.

    Too many vested interests to do it.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,925
    One of the best things that could happen to this country would be the Treasury burning to the ground. Decades of trying to do things on the cheap has cost us an absolute fortune, so much so that we can't even afford to defend the bloody country now. Is it gross incompetence or are they being blackmailed by Russia?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,234
    Wonder what Burnham is thinking right now ?
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,381
    On topic, this is why Farage's inability to keep any rising stars in his own party is so damaging. You need other faces when people get bored of yours. I know it's a stretch to call Lowe a fresh face but if he'd still been a Reform MP then he could be out there speaking to the elements of the Reform coalition that Farahe doesn't want to be seen with. That's how Blair used Prestcott back in the days of not wanting to be seen to be close to embarrassing old Union types.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,470

    Wonder what Burnham is thinking right now ?

    What's for lunch?
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,297
    Healy walking is like taking the foundations out if the core.

    Healey, Mcfadden, Streeting and Cooper are the rock on which the edifice was always secure.

    If Burnham wins or not next week, it will signal mass Cabinet resignations next weekend in my opinion and an immediate leadership Poll.

    Im wondering if someone like Cooper could be worth a punt in the old Hattie Harperson type interim role.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,297
    Healy walking is like taking the foundations out if the core.

    Healey, Mcfadden, Streeting and Cooper are the rock on which the edifice was always secure.

    If Burnham wins or not next week, it will signal mass Cabinet resignations next weekend in my opinion and an immediate leadership Poll.

    Im wondering if someone like Cooper could be worth a punt in the old Hattie Harperson type interim role.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,067
    https://www.npr.org/2026/06/10/nx-s1-5844328/us-china-data-centers-foreign-influence

    The theory taking the rich by storm: China funds data center haters
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,297
    IanB2 said:

    An opportunity to bring Streeting back into the cabinet now that his leadership challenge has failed.

    Al Carns
    I don't think anyone with political antennae would want to be taking up a role now, wait a few weeks and a new Leader and new Cabinet.

    Healey would be a very interesting centre right stalking horse candidate.
  • PeterCairnsPeterCairns Posts: 110
    Brixian59 said:

    eek said:

    Thoughts and prayers for the solicitors involved.

    My cousin in the UK is moving house tomorrow, six people in the "chain". One of them this morning just sent an email saying he's £20,000 short and asking everyone else to jointly make up the difference or the entire deal folds.

    https://x.com/archer_rs/status/2064962410620833914

    Edit - the whole thread is hilarious when you read the updates.

    The bit I don't get is if you have a chain moving tomorrow surely they've already exchanged...

    No way would I be in a chain both exchanging, buying, selling and moving on the same day...
    England and Wales should have introduced the Scottish Legal and Mortgage system 40 years ago.

    Too many vested interests to do it.
    It's the same with "Home Reports."

    The seller must get it done and provide it to all prospective buyers for free, so that you don't need to get a survey done for every house you are considering buying.

    Peter.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,964

    https://www.npr.org/2026/06/10/nx-s1-5844328/us-china-data-centers-foreign-influence

    The theory taking the rich by storm: China funds data center haters

    China isn't funding a thing, there are enough NIMBYs hating them without being paid.

    It's nice to think that everyone with an agenda you dislike is being paid but reality is most of the time people simply like things as they are..
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,234
    edited 11:40AM
    Labour

    2 child benefit cap and Burnham waspi women v defence of the country and Healey's letter is a cruise missile straight at Starmer and Reeves [Burnham's] choices
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,816

    Sandpit said:

    Well said John Healey.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/11/john-healey-resigns-as-defence-secretary-labour-starmer/

    John Healey has resigned as defence secretary over Sir Keir Starmer’s defence investment plan (DIP).

    He has accused the Prime Minister of failing to “meet the moment” over his long-delayed proposal to boost the military.

    Sir Keir is expected to set out details of the plan as soon as tomorrow, but it is thought to have been watered down following a row between No 10, the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury.

    In a letter to Sir Keir, Mr Healey said the defence investment plan “falls well short of what is required for defence and the country at a dangerous time”.

    He added: “Without a DIP that meets the moment in this way, I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our Forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations, and could make the country less safe.”


    Wow. Starmer and Reeves are finished.
    It's the other way round, I think. This doesn't finish them. This has happened because they're finished. Their authority internally has gone.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,962
    Why does Ed Miliband have such a hold over Starmer?

    https://x.com/DailyMail/status/2065014285047099598

    Defence shambles as Starmer delays funding plan again with Ed Miliband 'refusing to cut Net Zero spending'
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,781

    https://www.npr.org/2026/06/10/nx-s1-5844328/us-china-data-centers-foreign-influence

    The theory taking the rich by storm: China funds data center haters

    In the US that’s almost certainly true.

    It’s a US v China competition, and the Chinese know they can easily fund opposition movements in the US, in a way that the US can’t do in China.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,964
    glw said:

    One of the best things that could happen to this country would be the Treasury burning to the ground. Decades of trying to do things on the cheap has cost us an absolute fortune, so much so that we can't even afford to defend the bloody country now. Is it gross incompetence or are they being blackmailed by Russia?

    Gross incompetency and a Green Book that sees the price of everything and the real value of absolutely nothing.

    And add in the complete inability to let others get on with things and once deciding x needs to be done leaving the people doing it to do the job you've asked them to do.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,816
    Brixian59 said:

    Healy walking is like taking the foundations out if the core.

    Healey, Mcfadden, Streeting and Cooper are the rock on which the edifice was always secure.

    If Burnham wins or not next week, it will signal mass Cabinet resignations next weekend in my opinion and an immediate leadership Poll.

    Im wondering if someone like Cooper could be worth a punt in the old Hattie Harperson type interim role.

    But there's no reason to doubt the consensus view that Burnham is 'it' if he does win?

    Or is there?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,632

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Today is the day that the war in Ukraine has outlasted World War I, the Great War.

    Ukraine is still fighting back, and in the last few months actually making headway at a cost of over a thousand Russian soldiers a day.

    The Peninsular War lasted almost six years.

    I understand that many Ukrainians regard the war as having lasted twelve years already, since the 27th February 2014 Russian military occupation of Crimea.
    Yes many Ukranians will say the war has been ongoing since 2014.

    The WWI comparison today is from 24th Feb 2022, when the “SMO” started with the assault on Kiyv.
    World War 2 arguably started in 1937 or even 1931vwith the Japanese invasion of Manchuria
    If you consider the Hundred Years war as 1337 to about 1460, then arguably WW1 and WW2 are the same conflict.
    1905-1945 - the war of the New Imperial powers, as the rising empires of japan and Germany rose to challenge the longer-established empires of Britain, France and Russia. Though you could make a case to extending the start back to 1864-ish, and Prussia's rise to create Imperial Germany.
    Japan was allied to GB/UK/British Empire (depending on how you regard it) in WWI. Something the Americans allegedly fouled up.

    Again depends on ones interpretation of history.
    Yes, the Americans forced Britain to choose between an alliance with Japan and an alliance with the US.

    If Britain had chosen to renew the alliance with Japan, then the US might have ended up allied with Nazi Germany against Britain...
    Nope.

    What happened was this. Post WWI, it was believed t a big caste of the war was the alliance system.

    As part of the naval agreements around the Washington Treaty, naval alliances were ended. There was no alliance between the US & UK, either.

    The idea was that by limiting naval tonnage & preventing nations teaming up, it would make it impossible to start aggressive naval wars, because no side would have a clear margin of superiority.

    Which is why the Japanese ended up with a tonnage quota in the Washington Treaty that was third largest in the world (ahead of Italy and France). Because they had a One Ocean navy. The US and U.K. had Two Ocean Navies.

    What this meant was that neither the US, the U.K. or Japan could muster a force big enough to guarantee a win against any of the others in the Pacific.

    The proto-fascists in Japan, who were gaining support, were horrified. Precisely because this blocked their ability to wage aggressive war.

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,937

    Sandpit said:

    Well said John Healey.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/11/john-healey-resigns-as-defence-secretary-labour-starmer/

    John Healey has resigned as defence secretary over Sir Keir Starmer’s defence investment plan (DIP).

    He has accused the Prime Minister of failing to “meet the moment” over his long-delayed proposal to boost the military.

    Sir Keir is expected to set out details of the plan as soon as tomorrow, but it is thought to have been watered down following a row between No 10, the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury.

    In a letter to Sir Keir, Mr Healey said the defence investment plan “falls well short of what is required for defence and the country at a dangerous time”.

    He added: “Without a DIP that meets the moment in this way, I am being forced to make decisions that would reduce the readiness of our Forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations, and could make the country less safe.”


    Wow. Starmer and Reeves are finished.
    While I don't think Starmer has done 'the best possible' job overall, I really don't see why he's so unpopular.
    Holding the parcel when it finally starts to explode.

    We have had decades of kidding ourselves that we can have the sort of society we want with the taxes we are happy to pay. And fair play to the political class of all parties, they have kept those plates spinning for a remarkably long time. But it was always going to go wrong eventually.

    And now it has. Being a Great State needs more money than we are collectively willing to pay. And the alternative programmes sketched out by opposition parties are even more deluded than the project of the current government.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,816
    IanB2 said:

    What are the odds on Healy for the leadership?

    Doubt he's win but if you bet at long odds, you might do well to trading it.

    Peter.

    Are Labour members looking for a leader who will prioritise defence above the myriadly more popular types of domestic spending?
    No way.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,452
    It was bad enough when Reform and the Tories were indulging in circular firing squads, handing seats with a Right-wing plurality to the Left; Restore’s impact may be even more destructive. Lowe may put Burnham in Downing Street and effectively assist him again in any forthcoming general election.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/06/10/britain-is-throwing-away-its-last-chance-to-save-itself/
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,452

    Never quite understood why you don't use the Scottish system where legally binding offers kick in much earlier.
    That and sealed bids.


    Peter.

    Earlier than what?

    Any agreement becomes legally binding in any UK jurisdiction at the moment when both sides in the transaction are willing to be bound legally by its terms. It cannot happen earlier, and it cannot happen later. No other system is possible or meaningful. Discuss.

  • StarryStarry Posts: 214

    It was bad enough when Reform and the Tories were indulging in circular firing squads, handing seats with a Right-wing plurality to the Left; Restore’s impact may be even more destructive. Lowe may put Burnham in Downing Street and effectively assist him again in any forthcoming general election.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/06/10/britain-is-throwing-away-its-last-chance-to-save-itself/

    It's exactly what has been happening with the various left factions giving up decades of government to the only Right Wing party around.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,994

    https://www.npr.org/2026/06/10/nx-s1-5844328/us-china-data-centers-foreign-influence

    The theory taking the rich by storm: China funds data center haters

    I don't have an opinion about who's funding this but there was good stuff on the Focus Group podcast about how datacenters are the big issue that voters are spontaneously bring up in their groups:

    https://www.thebulwark.com/p/amy-walter-everyone-is-on-the-take
  • CharlieSharkCharlieShark Posts: 460
    All that bluster yesterday from Starmer at PMQs. He's dreadful. His Defence Secretary resigns just weeks ahead of the NATO summit that Starmer had said he will produce the review just before. Utterly embarrassing. Completely unravelling. Our partners must look at this lot and despair.

    Luckily Burnham will come in and spend that extra money on WASPI women. Buckle up.

  • Big_IanBig_Ian Posts: 94
    Sir Keir had better get a move on with his legacy projects..
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,067
    eek said:

    https://www.npr.org/2026/06/10/nx-s1-5844328/us-china-data-centers-foreign-influence

    The theory taking the rich by storm: China funds data center haters

    China isn't funding a thing, there are enough NIMBYs hating them without being paid.

    It's nice to think that everyone with an agenda you dislike is being paid but reality is most of the time people simply like things as they are..
    Yes, that’s the point of the article.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,937

    Crikey, Kemi Badenoch is thick as mince, she's destroyed any chance of people voting Tory to stop Reform.




    https://x.com/MrLeeCain/status/2065031565336326509

    To be fair, there are loads of examples in history of moderate patriotic right-wingers siding with the hard right because they think it's more important to keep the left out. After all, the hard right are a rabble who will be easy to control.

    Harder to think of examples that have ended well.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,067
    Sandpit said:

    https://www.npr.org/2026/06/10/nx-s1-5844328/us-china-data-centers-foreign-influence

    The theory taking the rich by storm: China funds data center haters

    In the US that’s almost certainly true.

    It’s a US v China competition, and the Chinese know they can easily fund opposition movements in the US, in a way that the US can’t do in China.
    That is not the conclusion of the article.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,960

    Seems amazing that this hasn't happened earlier.

    A primary school with just two pupils is to close at the end of the summer term.

    Ysgol Y Garreg in Penrhyndeudraeth, Gwynedd, currently has no pupils in nursery, reception or years one to five.

    Its remaining two Year six pupils are due to start secondary school in September.

    Cyngor Gwynedd's cabinet voted unanimously to close the school on 31 August, saying it could not ignore the "seriousness of the situation".

    The council said falling pupil numbers across the local authority had made the decision unavoidable, despite the school's long history at the heart of the community.

    Dewi Jones, cabinet member for education, said the proposal was one of the most difficult decisions he had faced.

    "Nobody goes into education in order to close schools," he said.

    "Our ambition is to see schools thriving, children succeeding and communities staying strong."

    He paid tribute to the staff, governors, parents and community, saying Ysgol Y Garreg had served the area faithfully for over a century.

    I fear we're going to see more of this. The number of children is, in many areas, falling.
    This has been an issue in Highland for decades: a Council with an area larger than Wales and roughly the same population of Blackpool!!!


    The problem here its that even if it has no children now, there might be some in a year or to so we mothball the school not close it.

    It might seem daft to keep a school open with only a handful of kids, but if the alternative is busing five and six year olds for over at hour twice a day, sometimes it's the least worst option.

    Peter.
    It’s also an issue in Dumfries and Galloway, for example, Dalry High School has only 13 pupils and is at risk of closure, so it even affects secondary schools. OTOH, when Ardnamurchan High School opened in 2002, it allowed over 100 pupils to travel to school from home daily, instead of boarding in Fort William during the week,
    I know the Welsh school in question quite well, having grown up almost in it's catchment area. It was the school to which kids were transferred from the even more rural school at Croesor, which finally closed in 2009 having averaged around 4 pupils for most of the previous decade.

    The kids from Garreg aren't going terribly far, there is a "big" (150 kids - these things are relative) primary in Penrhyndeudraeth, about 7 minutes drive away. The falling pupil number for Garreg aren't the full story - if you read the various news stories carefully, it's apparent that a number of parents pulled their kids out in the last couple of years, probably because it was inevitable that the council would be unable to sustain the expense of the school for a small number of children and were going to pull the plug imminently.
  • StarryStarry Posts: 214

    Crikey, Kemi Badenoch is thick as mince, she's destroyed any chance of people voting Tory to stop Reform.




    https://x.com/MrLeeCain/status/2065031565336326509

    Vote Tory, get Reform. Shades of Labour and Salmond rears it's ugly head. But self-inflicted this time.
  • Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 316
    eek said:

    glw said:

    One of the best things that could happen to this country would be the Treasury burning to the ground. Decades of trying to do things on the cheap has cost us an absolute fortune, so much so that we can't even afford to defend the bloody country now. Is it gross incompetence or are they being blackmailed by Russia?

    Gross incompetency and a Green Book that sees the price of everything and the real value of absolutely nothing.

    And add in the complete inability to let others get on with things and once deciding x needs to be done leaving the people doing it to do the job you've asked them to do.
    While in general I agree with that. I often think the Ministry of Defence is a special case. Giving money to it seems like setting it on fire rather than a prudent investment in the nations defence.

    The amount of uniform types ending up working for the firms they have just procured over specced, overpriced and never delivered crud off is enough to make you suspicious.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,232
    IanB2 said:

    What are the odds on Healy for the leadership?

    Doubt he's win but if you bet at long odds, you might do well to trading it.

    Peter.

    Are Labour members looking for a leader who will prioritise defence above the myriadly more popular types of domestic spending?
    The last Labour List Cabinet rankings of a couple of months back had Healey ranked very highly. Net +46 favourability. For comparison, Starmer -2, Reeves -2, Mahmood -12, Streeting +21.

    I had ramped Healey here as a value bet at much longer odds several months ago, based on earlier Labour List rankings and my own personal dealings with him and the respect he carries within the party, but with absolutely no sign of him showing any interest that ship seemed to have sailed. That said, if Burnham doesn't win in Makerfield and a challenge materialises to Starmer regardless, some MPs looking for a unifying figure could be tempted.

    I still think though that his resignation is far more likely to be down to the explanation he's given rather than being prompted by wider motives.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,318
    Brutal letter from Healey. Two-footed on Reeves.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,816

    Healey is 22 for next leader

    Bit of a spread though. It's 90 bid.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,684

    Never quite understood why you don't use the Scottish system where legally binding offers kick in much earlier.
    That and sealed bids.


    Peter.

    Unconditional bids are rare in Scotland these days. The system does discourage shenanigans however.
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 652
    Stereodog said:

    On topic, this is why Farage's inability to keep any rising stars in his own party is so damaging. You need other faces when people get bored of yours. I know it's a stretch to call Lowe a fresh face but if he'd still been a Reform MP then he could be out there speaking to the elements of the Reform coalition that Farahe doesn't want to be seen with. That's how Blair used Prestcott back in the days of not wanting to be seen to be close to embarrassing old Union types.

    When are the FT, Sunday Times et al going to start investigating Rupert Lowe's business career? His stewardship of Southampton Football Club wasn't without incident either.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,318

    eek said:

    glw said:

    One of the best things that could happen to this country would be the Treasury burning to the ground. Decades of trying to do things on the cheap has cost us an absolute fortune, so much so that we can't even afford to defend the bloody country now. Is it gross incompetence or are they being blackmailed by Russia?

    Gross incompetency and a Green Book that sees the price of everything and the real value of absolutely nothing.

    And add in the complete inability to let others get on with things and once deciding x needs to be done leaving the people doing it to do the job you've asked them to do.
    While in general I agree with that. I often think the Ministry of Defence is a special case. Giving money to it seems like setting it on fire rather than a prudent investment in the nations defence.

    The amount of uniform types ending up working for the firms they have just procured over specced, overpriced and never delivered crud off is enough to make you suspicious.
    Hard agree. £60 billion for a no attack submarines
    , 7 month trident patrols, and a single frigate is terrible value.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,318
    edited 11:53AM
    Vanilla fail
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,285

    Crikey, Kemi Badenoch is thick as mince, she's destroyed any chance of people voting Tory to stop Reform.




    https://x.com/MrLeeCain/status/2065031565336326509

    If she's willing to do that she may be willing to agree with Reform to have candidates stand down and divvy up the seats. Very bad.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 22,117

    What are the odds on Healy for the leadership?

    Doubt he's win but if you bet at long odds, you might do well to trading it.

    Peter.

    I like John, but doubt if anyone campaigning on a "spend more on defence" ticket would get more than 10% of the vote of Labour members. It's a perfectly understandable decision for a Defence Secretary, but with no short-term threat to Britain visible it'd be a mistake IMO to prioritise a leap in defence spending, at a time when money is exceptionally short.
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