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Once again Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership causes a party to split – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,256
edited June 2 in General
Once again Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership causes a party to split – politicalbetting.com

Sadly there are no betting markets up on the number of MPs Your Party will win at the next general election. I don’t know what it is about Jeremy Corbyn that causes the parties he leads to fracture.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 29,645
    lol
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,934
    It might just be that Jeremy Corbyn is shit at politics?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,370
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608
    Set up too late, and too chaotically.

    They couldn't even agree on a leadership model and had public rows before they officially launched, it was destined to go badly.

    Funny though.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,934

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    Why is this even a thing? OF COURSE you make them lockable. Or people will sue you if they have an unwelcome "incident".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608

    It might just be that Jeremy Corbyn is shit at politics?

    He was in his element as a serial rebel backbencher, speaking at rallies and other public events. He was able to inspire a lot of people.

    But he just doesn't have leadership qualities. Ask him before 2015 and he'd probably have agreed with that. But years as leader changes you, ups the ego, and he wanted to be a revered grandee. Then when that failed he reluctantly set up the new movement he'd been badgered about for years by his fans, but still had to be pushed into that.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,333

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608
    I see Southampton are trying to pull the old 'We didn't benefit from our cheating, so punishing us is unfair' gambit. That's like a store robber saying they should be let off from attempted theft because there was no money in the till.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,253
    edited June 2
    Left-wing splinter party splits further. Who saw that coming?

    :)
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,645
    edited June 2
    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 60,314
    What's Burnham's position on ceremonial knives?

    Being a de facto PM in waiting risks leaving him very exposed over the next three weeks.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    The Olympic swimming pool in Stratford is exactly the same: a massive space with hundreds of little lockable cubicles, which is available to all sexes, and no one is getting naked in front of other people. (At least, not against their will.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Extreme views dominate on all sides. When things are fully self contained that seems to be a reasonable approach.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,370

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    Why is this even a thing? OF COURSE you make them lockable. Or people will sue you if they have an unwelcome "incident".
    The problem is many places existing changing single-sex facilities are more open-plan and not cubicle based.

    So simply changing the label on the door is not sufficient to make it sex-neutral. It needs cubicles creating and locks installing etc, where currently there are maybe not any or many cubicles as people get changed in the open.

    And given cubicles require far more space than open-plan, that redesign is not necessarily easy, without losing capacity.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 60,314
    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    The Olympic swimming pool in Stratford is exactly the same: a massive space with hundreds of little lockable cubicles, which is available to all sexes, and no one is getting naked in front of other people. (At least, not against their will.)
    It worked well, but that harmony is sadly being disrupted by the influx of Albanian cocaine dealers.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,645

    What's Burnham's position on ceremonial knives?

    Being a de facto PM in waiting risks leaving him very exposed over the next three weeks.

    More importantly what is it on reparations ?

    Many of his fellow travellers are pro reparations fanatics
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,998
    Corbyn could be in a party only containing himself and it would still split.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,950
    edited June 2
    I tihnk the Tories are value in Aberdeen South.

    SNP 1.38 / 1.52
    Con 3.3 / 3.95
    Lab 38 / 90

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.258320914
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,370
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?
    I have. Four individual spaces, previously arbitrarily 2 female and 2 male, now 4 unisex. Not reported in the press as far as I can see unfortunately.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,278
    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,885
    Fake News At the FBU awards ceremony last night top award went to a half Iranian half Russian firefighter called Amir Panikova
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    Why is this even a thing? OF COURSE you make them lockable. Or people will sue you if they have an unwelcome "incident".
    The problem is many places existing changing single-sex facilities are more open-plan and not cubicle based.

    So simply changing the label on the door is not sufficient to make it sex-neutral. It needs cubicles creating and locks installing etc, where currently there are maybe not any or many cubicles as people get changed in the open.

    And given cubicles require far more space than open-plan, that redesign is not necessarily easy, without losing capacity.
    I'm not sure they require far more space:

    Firslty, people naturally don't like to be too close to others when toweling off, and having partitions means that there's a physical boundary even if it's only about half a centimeter thick.

    Secondly, you are equalizing the male and female changing facilities which might well make use more efficient. (It may be that pre 8am, the pool is 65% men, and between 10am and 6pm it's 60% women.)
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,333

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,397

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    If you are being half-arsed in the sinks,
    a) I'm not surprised that there are complaints and
    b) you're using them wrong.

    Having got the schoolboy humour out of the way, what is the objection to cubicles for parts of the process where bits need to be exposed and non-cubicles for the parts where they aren't?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,439

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    The Olympic swimming pool in Stratford is exactly the same: a massive space with hundreds of little lockable cubicles, which is available to all sexes, and no one is getting naked in front of other people. (At least, not against their will.)
    It worked well, but that harmony is sadly being disrupted by the influx of Albanian cocaine dealers.
    Who have arrived by black cab, one assumes?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,885

    Fake News At the FBU awards ceremony last night top award went to a half Iranian half Russian firefighter called Amir Panikova

    Apparently 97% of FBU Members support Reform and are hoping Nigel refers to 2 tier justice in firefighter awards and calls for his followers to deal with the injustice by fighting back next time firefighters are called to blazes in their vacinity!!
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,645

    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
    Not long IMHO

    When Burnham wins the leadership and pivots left the Corbynite hard left will go back to Labour and that will leave the environment loving NIMBY brigade

    Quite where it leaves Zack remains to be seen
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608
    edited June 2
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
    Not long IMHO

    When Burnham wins the leadership and pivots left the Corbynite hard left will go back to Labour and that will leave the environment loving NIMBY brigade

    Quite where it leaves Zack remains to be seen
    They'll be the same as they were before he arrived, so not as large as they hoped and he promised they would be. So much like the boob hypnosis clients he defrauded.

    (Actually I think the party will remain a bit higher than they were before he became leader, but had to go for the obvious).

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,253
    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    https://x.com/CompassOffice
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,534
    viewcode said:

    Left-wing splinter party splits further. Who saw that coming?

    :)

    It's all Judaean Popular Front :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,534
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    What does "Gender Critical" even mean?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,604
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    "What did you do in the Toilet Wars of 2025-2026"
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,885

    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
    I think a significant proportion of those who left Labour under SKS could be persuaded to vote for Burnham

    I heard him talk about 47 years of Neo Liberalism failing the working classes and not addressing inequality

    On the other hand I have heard him cave to the Red Tory agenda on issue after issue in the last few weeks

    So it very much depends which route Labour goes down for me to consider leaving the Greens
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,645
    edited June 2

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    What does "Gender Critical" even mean?
    Women who dont know their place.

    Dont worry. Alistair Campbell’s unfunny idiot daughter and her cross dressing male friend owned that.

    https://x.com/WingsScotland/status/2045057024577126823/video/1?s=61
  • rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    Why is this even a thing? OF COURSE you make them lockable. Or people will sue you if they have an unwelcome "incident".
    The problem is many places existing changing single-sex facilities are more open-plan and not cubicle based.

    So simply changing the label on the door is not sufficient to make it sex-neutral. It needs cubicles creating and locks installing etc, where currently there are maybe not any or many cubicles as people get changed in the open.

    And given cubicles require far more space than open-plan, that redesign is not necessarily easy, without losing capacity.
    I'm not sure they require far more space:

    Firslty, people naturally don't like to be too close to others when toweling off, and having partitions means that there's a physical boundary even if it's only about half a centimeter thick.

    Secondly, you are equalizing the male and female changing facilities which might well make use more efficient. (It may be that pre 8am, the pool is 65% men, and between 10am and 6pm it's 60% women.)
    There is sometimes a problem with lavatory design which seems to be some type of a reaction to some amorphous "rules". A good, if not perfect example of bad design is in the otherwise excellent History Centre in Wakefield. There are five or six lavatory cubicles side by side. These are more than deep enough 4 or 5 yards, each has a narrow basin, coat peg etc. Trouble is they are only 1 metre wide. If you try to turn around you set either the loo flushing or the tap flowing, they are on sensors. But the daft thing is they only allow 10 users at the History Centre at a time. So either one all user or two all user cubicles but three times wider would have been so much more useful for everyone. Even the "disabled" bay is barely a yard wide.

    The same building has racks for 10 bikes but no benches or table outside where you could sit down waiting for the doors to open. I have never seen even one bike actually use the bike racks. I suggested getting rid of 5 bike racks and putting a table and outside seating in the same place.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    What does "Gender Critical" even mean?
    It means you are critical of genders. Obviously.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 23,238

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    Why is this even a thing? OF COURSE you make them lockable. Or people will sue you if they have an unwelcome "incident".
    Reading through the last thread it's easy to see where Jeremy's coming from. There's only so many hours in a day and days in a week and he knows he doesn't want to spend a single one discussing what toilets people might want to use and he knows that's exactly the sort of trivia his 800,000 followers will force him into having to think about
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608
    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    What does "Gender Critical" even mean?
    It means you are critical of genders. Obviously.
    As the owner of one human body, slightly used, I think they're disgusting no matter the gender and we should ban them entirely.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,040
    Take the advice of the 1970s Crisp Dragon:

    "Not five, not four, but free !"
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,645
    edited June 2
    Dupe
  • Taz said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    What does "Gender Critical" even mean?
    Women who dont know their place.

    Dont worry. Alistair Campbell’s unfunny idiot daughter and her cross dressing male friend owned that.

    https://x.com/WingsScotland/status/2045057024577126823/video/1?s=61
    The thing is, gender is an invented concept. Sex is not.

    If people just understood the difference…
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,534
    Battlebus said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    "What did you do in the Toilet Wars of 2025-2026"
    "No, my father didn't fight in the Toilet Wars. He was a navigator on a Spice freighter."
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 8,319

    viewcode said:

    Left-wing splinter party splits further. Who saw that coming?

    :)

    It's all Judaean Popular Front :lol:
    Are the new lot the Your Party Popular Front or the Popular Front of Your Party?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,950
    Battlebus said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    "What did you do in the Toilet Wars of 2025-2026"
    Just shows how far we've fallen as a society that we spend valuable time on this sort of debate.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,534

    viewcode said:

    Left-wing splinter party splits further. Who saw that coming?

    :)

    It's all Judaean Popular Front :lol:
    Are the new lot the Your Party Popular Front or the Popular Front of Your Party?
    Splitters!!!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,210
    Send the video to everyone you know showing how heinously Nowak was treated by the police in his dying moments and how the police cravenly kowtowed to his murderer.

    Legacy mainstream media, same ones who wrote about George Floyd millions of times, are dead silent about Nowak.

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/2061809366546997488

    Never mind, everyone, Elon's on the case. All we need now is for Donald Trump to weigh in.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,699
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
    Not long IMHO

    When Burnham wins the leadership and pivots left the Corbynite hard left will go back to Labour and that will leave the environment loving NIMBY brigade

    Quite where it leaves Zack remains to be seen
    Are parties doing well less likely to split? Why split when you’re winning?

    That said, Reform did see splits while they were doing well, but those were driven by interpersonal tensions between Farage and others.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832
    Taz said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    What does "Gender Critical" even mean?
    Women who dont know their place.

    Dont worry. Alistair Campbell’s unfunny idiot daughter and her cross dressing male friend owned that.

    https://x.com/WingsScotland/status/2045057024577126823/video/1?s=61
    Is it in the kitchen?
  • FF43 said:

    Corbyn could be in a party only containing himself and it would still split.

    Given his expertise in creating splits, he should really get a job at CERN.
    Does he like bananas
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832
    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    Why is this even a thing? OF COURSE you make them lockable. Or people will sue you if they have an unwelcome "incident".
    Reading through the last thread it's easy to see where Jeremy's coming from. There's only so many hours in a day and days in a week and he knows he doesn't want to spend a single one discussing what toilets people might want to use and he knows that's exactly the sort of trivia his 800,000 followers will force him into having to think about
    I hope it's the gents.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832
    Andy_JS said:

    Battlebus said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    "What did you do in the Toilet Wars of 2025-2026"
    Just shows how far we've fallen as a society that we spend valuable time on this sort of debate.
    Surely it's the opposite.

    It demonstrates that so many of our basic needs are met that we get so invested in the minutae.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608
    Leaving aside the obvious community note, I'm confused by the progression of the images of the attempted meme.


  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,699
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    The new buildings at my workplace have loos like this, your own cubicle, your own space, with a sink, somewhere to put your bag. It’s lovely. Why would people campaign against it?!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832
    kle4 said:

    Leaving aside the obvious community note, I'm confused by the progression of the images of the attempted meme.


    That just shows that you aren't a Maoist, and couldn't become one even if you wanted.

    Sorry.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,439

    Battlebus said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    It’s been all over Mumsnet the last week or two apparently & has bled onto my Twitter feed. They’ve been filming M+S employees whilst pressuring them on the issue: https://x.com/Abouterf197543/status/2059186825143455841

    If you search Marks and Spencer on twitter you’ll find plenty of posts about it, on all possible sides, but mostly from the GC crowd.

    (M+S does seem to have made the error of having “Mens” and “Gender Neutral” changing in some shops, which might even be legal under current legislation (possibly?) but definitely hasn’t endeared them to the Gender Critical crowd, who I will concede might have a point there!)


    "What did you do in the Toilet Wars of 2025-2026"
    "No, my father didn't fight in the Toilet Wars. He was a navigator on a Spice freighter."
    Which toilet should Leto II have used?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,856
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    So M&S have made a rod for their own backs by having a Mens and an Anybody fitting room. WTF?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    The new buildings at my workplace have loos like this, your own cubicle, your own space, with a sink, somewhere to put your bag. It’s lovely. Why would people campaign against it?!
    US offices have been going that way for a while. I must say that I approve.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,419
    rcs1000 said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    Why is this even a thing? OF COURSE you make them lockable. Or people will sue you if they have an unwelcome "incident".
    Reading through the last thread it's easy to see where Jeremy's coming from. There's only so many hours in a day and days in a week and he knows he doesn't want to spend a single one discussing what toilets people might want to use and he knows that's exactly the sort of trivia his 800,000 followers will force him into having to think about
    I hope it's the gents.
    As a user of gents I am concerned that this will end in a toilet for which you have to present your birth certificate and the gents, which will result in queues. The only upside for long-term gents users I can see is an improvement in maintenance and cleanliness. Noted that this is a very minor concern compared to others.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608
    edited June 2
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leaving aside the obvious community note, I'm confused by the progression of the images of the attempted meme.


    That just shows that you aren't a Maoist, and couldn't become one even if you wanted.

    Sorry.
    I did once read a pamphlet left behind on a train about how trotskyites were the real enemies of the working class, I learned a lot that day.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    So M&S have made a rod for their own backs by having a Mens and an Anybody fitting room. WTF?
    Indeed: the stupidity beggars belief.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leaving aside the obvious community note, I'm confused by the progression of the images of the attempted meme.


    That just shows that you aren't a Maoist, and couldn't become one even if you wanted.

    Sorry.
    As Enver Hoxha famously said, "Together, the Albanians and the Chinese are a quarter of the world’s population."
    That's absolutely brilliant.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,645

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
    Not long IMHO

    When Burnham wins the leadership and pivots left the Corbynite hard left will go back to Labour and that will leave the environment loving NIMBY brigade

    Quite where it leaves Zack remains to be seen
    Are parties doing well less likely to split? Why split when you’re winning?

    That said, Reform did see splits while they were doing well, but those were driven by interpersonal tensions between Farage and others.
    Your Party aren’t winning and, aside from a few inner city areas, neither are the Greens.

    I suspect when Burnham pivots left Greens on the left will go back.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 34,040

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    Why is this even a thing? OF COURSE you make them lockable. Or people will sue you if they have an unwelcome "incident".
    The problem is many places existing changing single-sex facilities are more open-plan and not cubicle based.

    So simply changing the label on the door is not sufficient to make it sex-neutral. It needs cubicles creating and locks installing etc, where currently there are maybe not any or many cubicles as people get changed in the open.

    And given cubicles require far more space than open-plan, that redesign is not necessarily easy, without losing capacity.
    I'm not sure they require far more space:

    Firslty, people naturally don't like to be too close to others when toweling off, and having partitions means that there's a physical boundary even if it's only about half a centimeter thick.

    Secondly, you are equalizing the male and female changing facilities which might well make use more efficient. (It may be that pre 8am, the pool is 65% men, and between 10am and 6pm it's 60% women.)
    There is sometimes a problem with lavatory design which seems to be some type of a reaction to some amorphous "rules". A good, if not perfect example of bad design is in the otherwise excellent History Centre in Wakefield. There are five or six lavatory cubicles side by side. These are more than deep enough 4 or 5 yards, each has a narrow basin, coat peg etc. Trouble is they are only 1 metre wide. If you try to turn around you set either the loo flushing or the tap flowing, they are on sensors. But the daft thing is they only allow 10 users at the History Centre at a time. So either one all user or two all user cubicles but three times wider would have been so much more useful for everyone. Even the "disabled" bay is barely a yard wide.

    The same building has racks for 10 bikes but no benches or table outside where you could sit down waiting for the doors to open. I have never seen even one bike actually use the bike racks. I suggested getting rid of 5 bike racks and putting a table and outside seating in the same place.
    Hmmm. I wonder what the problem is with the bike racks. Is there no way to get there, or perhaps they are bolt down (which means a cycle can be stolen by just unbolting it)?

    I wouldn't worry about replacement, I'd just ask for several benches on the huge pavement for everyone to use.

    There is a design problem with the round spire of Wakefield Cathedral. I fixed my direction from the centre to my car park relative to the spire, then it turned out that the bloody thing looks identical from every side, and there are umpteen car parks that all look identical. I spent an hour walking a circle round the centre of Wakefield.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,253
    edited June 2

    What does "Gender Critical" even mean?

    • i) There are only two sexes, male and female.
    • ii) Sex is diagnosed (not assigned) at birth.
    • iii) It is not possible for a human being to change their sex.
    • iv) Gender is the set of behaviours associated with a sex. It does/should not replace "sex" in any legislation.
    • v) It is possible to assign or reassign a gender but it is separate from sex and the two should not be confused.
    Gender critical opinions on those who want to reassign their gender vary and are outwith scope, But all are united that sex and gender are different things.

    The phrase "gender critical" supplanted "TERF" (trans-exclusionary radical feminist) because
    • i) they did not want to exclude trans people per se, just exclude them from opposite-sex facilities[2]
    • ii) some were explicitly and loudly not feminists
    • iii) some people used TERF as a slur[3]
    • iv) I have older memories regarding the old difference between radical and revolutionary feminism, but I distrust them and I'm not sure Wiki is correct
    The phrase "sex realist" has begun to creep (back) in. It was downplayed because:
    • i) it's too close to "race realist", which is what racists call themselves to be polite
    • ii) journalists can only keep track of one phrase in their head at a time.
    References
    • [1] Genetic abnormalities like intersex do not change this and intersex individuals are categorised as "male" or "female". This is why "biological sex" (only two categories) supplanted "genetic sex" (mostly two categories but with some abnormalities)
    • [2] But see the EHRC guidance, which excludes trans people from opposite toilets AND from same-sex toilets if their appearance is objectionable, AND (in certain circs) from third space toilets if it is not possible/feasible to have them
    • [3]...and was almost immediately reclaimed by gender-criticals and is now one of those words that "only we can use that word"
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,856
    Pretty much agree with all of that with the exception of this bit:

    "[2] But see the EHRC guidance, which excludes trans people from opposite toilets AND from same-sex toilets if their appearance is objectionable, AND (in certain circs) from third space toilets if it is not possible/feasible to have them"

    Really? Thats not my understanding
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,333

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    So M&S have made a rod for their own backs by having a Mens and an Anybody fitting room. WTF?
    Indeed. I’m not sure what they were thinking there: it’s asking for trouble in the current political environment.

    It might be that stores going through refurb have switched previously gendered changing rooms to gender neutral after being fitted with proper full length lockable doors & so on? So if the Mens in a given store (say) still had curtains & no locks M+S might be leaving them gendered until they re-fit them?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,318
    kle4 said:

    I see Southampton are trying to pull the old 'We didn't benefit from our cheating, so punishing us is unfair' gambit. That's like a store robber saying they should be let off from attempted theft because there was no money in the till.

    Lets be honest. If it were Man City or Chelsea caught doing similar they would not be thrown out of a competition at a cost of £200m. They'd get a slap on the wrist.

    What's the right punishment? Not sure, but what Southampton got is probably out of line with existing precedent, and certainly with how other clubs get treated.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,571
    viewcode said:

    What does "Gender Critical" even mean?

    • i) There are only two sexes, male and female.
    • ii) Sex is diagnosed (not assigned) at birth.
    • iii) It is not possible for a human being to change their sex.
    • iv) Gender is the set of behaviours associated with a sex. It does/should not replace "sex" in any legislation.
    • v) It is possible to assign or reassign a gender but it is separate from sex and the two should not be confused.
    Gender critical opinions on those who want to reassign their gender vary and are outwith scope, But all are united that sex and gender are different things.

    The phrase "gender critical" supplanted "TERF" (trans-exclusionary radical feminist) because
    • i) they did not want to exclude trans people per se, just exclude them from opposite-sex facilities[2]
    • ii) some were explicitly and loudly not feminists
    • iii) some people used TERF as a slur[3]
    • iv) I have older memories regarding the old difference between radical and revolutionary feminism, but I distrust them and I'm not sure Wiki is correct
    The phrase "sex realist" has begun to creep (back) in. It was downplayed because
    • i) it's too close to "race realist", which is what racists call themselves to be polite
    • ii) journalists can only keep track of one phrase in their head at a time.
    References
    • [1] Genetic abnormalities like intersex do not change this and intersex individuals are categorised as "male" or "female". This is why "biological sex" (only two categories) supplanted "genetic sex" (mostly two categories but with some abnormalities)
    • [2] But see the EHRC guidance, which excludes trans people from opposite toilets AND from same-sex toilets if their appearance is objectionable, AND (in certain circs) from third space toilets if it is not possible/feasible to have them
    • [3]...and was almost immediately reclaimed by gender-criticals and is now one of those words that "only we can use that word"
    There are 3 sexes

    Male
    Female
    Hermaphrodite

    The latter by a clear nd unequivocal medical certificatarion

    We've seen brutal and disgusting abuse of Castor Semenya for a genetic condition she was born with.
    She deserves the respect if everyone and apology from many. As do all in that category.

    There fare no other groups.

    If people wish to be something different they should be allowed to live by their choice provided it's legal.

    They cannot though expect the law to be written just for them.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,210
    edited June 2
    Severely disabled people can now consent to care arrangements, Supreme Court rules

    Severely disabled people aged 16 and over will now be able to give consent to their care arrangements despite not having the capacity to do so, the Supreme Court has ruled.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e2lq58p87o

    ‘The biggest rollback of disability rights in a generation’ – Charities respond to Supreme Court ruling
    ...
    The ruling effectively dismantles a landmark 2014 legal framework known as Cheshire West, which established a universal “acid test”. This means that if someone lacks the mental capacity to consent to their care and living arrangements, is under continuous supervision and control, and is not free to leave, they were legally ‘deprived of their liberty’. This triggered vital legal safeguards (DoLS), requiring an independent assessor to regularly inspect care homes, supported living arrangements, and locked units to ensure the placement is safe, justified, and in the person’s best interests. Today’s decision tears up those protections.

    https://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/the-biggest-rollback-of-disability-rights-in-a-generation-charities-respond-to-supreme-court-ruling/

    Those zany funsters on the SC bench have done it again – and not just forcing trans people into disabled toilets.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,856
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    So M&S have made a rod for their own backs by having a Mens and an Anybody fitting room. WTF?
    Indeed. I’m not sure what they were thinking there: it’s asking for trouble in the current political environment.

    It might be that stores going through refurb have switched previously gendered changing rooms to gender neutral after being fitted with proper full length lockable doors & so on? So if the Mens in a given store (say) still had curtains & no locks M+S might be leaving them gendered until they re-fit them?
    I think they've just fecked up to be honest.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,699
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
    Not long IMHO

    When Burnham wins the leadership and pivots left the Corbynite hard left will go back to Labour and that will leave the environment loving NIMBY brigade

    Quite where it leaves Zack remains to be seen
    Are parties doing well less likely to split? Why split when you’re winning?

    That said, Reform did see splits while they were doing well, but those were driven by interpersonal tensions between Farage and others.
    Your Party aren’t winning and, aside from a few inner city areas, neither are the Greens.

    I suspect when Burnham pivots left Greens on the left will go back.
    Your Party aren't winning, but the Greens are doing better than they have ever done before. Most MPs ever. Most local councillors ever. Most directly-elected mayors ever. Most councils led ever. Most Senedd members ever. Equal most London Assembly members ever. Most MSPs ever (although they're a separate party). Highest polling ever.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,568
    edited June 2

    kle4 said:

    I see Southampton are trying to pull the old 'We didn't benefit from our cheating, so punishing us is unfair' gambit. That's like a store robber saying they should be let off from attempted theft because there was no money in the till.

    Lets be honest. If it were Man City or Chelsea caught doing similar they would not be thrown out of a competition at a cost of £200m. They'd get a slap on the wrist.

    What's the right punishment? Not sure, but what Southampton got is probably out of line with existing precedent, and certainly with how other clubs get treated.
    Southampton is the precedent - the rules didn't exist when Leeds were caught spying, so Leeds were charged under what was available at the time. New rules were then introduced and Southampton are the first team caught breaking them.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608
    edited June 2

    kle4 said:

    I see Southampton are trying to pull the old 'We didn't benefit from our cheating, so punishing us is unfair' gambit. That's like a store robber saying they should be let off from attempted theft because there was no money in the till.

    Lets be honest. If it were Man City or Chelsea caught doing similar they would not be thrown out of a competition at a cost of £200m. They'd get a slap on the wrist.

    What's the right punishment? Not sure, but what Southampton got is probably out of line with existing precedent, and certainly with how other clubs get treated.
    It was the only possible punishment in the circumstances - if it had been caught earlier in the season a points deduction might have been fair, but because it was already the playoffs a points deduction (this season or next) would have been meaningless, so would a fine if they had had successfully been promoted to the premier league given how much advantage winning it would give them.

    So it was a high punishment, but it was the only proportionate one available as anything else would have been no punishment at all. The fact they initially lied and said no high level people were involved added to that, which is why I assume their appeal was rejected.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,856

    kle4 said:

    I see Southampton are trying to pull the old 'We didn't benefit from our cheating, so punishing us is unfair' gambit. That's like a store robber saying they should be let off from attempted theft because there was no money in the till.

    Lets be honest. If it were Man City or Chelsea caught doing similar they would not be thrown out of a competition at a cost of £200m. They'd get a slap on the wrist.

    What's the right punishment? Not sure, but what Southampton got is probably out of line with existing precedent, and certainly with how other clubs get treated.
    Swindon were relegated from Division One after winning the 1990 play offs. Their crime - illegal payments to players (so you have an official wage and a bit extra on the side). I still don't really get what advantage they gained from that. They had also bet on the club to lose in an FA Cup match against Newcastle. No implication that they deliberately lost, but the bet was illegal.

    I maintain that other clubs at the time were likely doing similar things and Town were the scapegoat. Lou Macari, for instance, was fresh in the job after his time as a Man Utd player.

    So the punishment Saints have had is exactly in line with precedent. But Town fans will all remember that Spurs had a very similar case not long after 1990 and were merely fined, and not relegated. So yes, it has precedent but yes Man City would not have been relegated/kicked out the play-offs.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,370

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    Never seen anyone object to properly implemented individual spaces, any example of this being objected to?

    I've only ever seen objections against half-arsed transitions that don't meet the rules. Eg toilet cubicles but shared sink space etc.
    If you are being half-arsed in the sinks,
    a) I'm not surprised that there are complaints and
    b) you're using them wrong.

    Having got the schoolboy humour out of the way, what is the objection to cubicles for parts of the process where bits need to be exposed and non-cubicles for the parts where they aren't?
    Personally I use the sink to wash my hands, but I have heard women object they need the sink for more than that. Especially if cleaning anything period-related . . . and not pleasant to do that around men.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832
    viewcode said:

    What does "Gender Critical" even mean?

    • i) There are only two sexes, male and female.
    • ii) Sex is diagnosed (not assigned) at birth.
    • iii) It is not possible for a human being to change their sex.
    • iv) Gender is the set of behaviours associated with a sex. It does/should not replace "sex" in any legislation.
    • v) It is possible to assign or reassign a gender but it is separate from sex and the two should not be confused.
    Gender critical opinions on those who want to reassign their gender vary and are outwith scope, But all are united that sex and gender are different things.

    The phrase "gender critical" supplanted "TERF" (trans-exclusionary radical feminist) because
    • i) they did not want to exclude trans people per se, just exclude them from opposite-sex facilities[2]
    • ii) some were explicitly and loudly not feminists
    • iii) some people used TERF as a slur[3]
    • iv) I have older memories regarding the old difference between radical and revolutionary feminism, but I distrust them and I'm not sure Wiki is correct
    The phrase "sex realist" has begun to creep (back) in. It was downplayed because:
    • i) it's too close to "race realist", which is what racists call themselves to be polite
    • ii) journalists can only keep track of one phrase in their head at a time.
    References
    • [1] Genetic abnormalities like intersex do not change this and intersex individuals are categorised as "male" or "female". This is why "biological sex" (only two categories) supplanted "genetic sex" (mostly two categories but with some abnormalities)
    • [2] But see the EHRC guidance, which excludes trans people from opposite toilets AND from same-sex toilets if their appearance is objectionable, AND (in certain circs) from third space toilets if it is not possible/feasible to have them
    • [3]...and was almost immediately reclaimed by gender-criticals and is now one of those words that "only we can use that word"
    A typically great summary. Thank you @viewcode.

  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,604

    Severely disabled people can now consent to care arrangements, Supreme Court rules

    Severely disabled people aged 16 and over will now be able to give consent to their care arrangements despite not having the capacity to do so, the Supreme Court has ruled.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e2lq58p87o

    ‘The biggest rollback of disability rights in a generation’ – Charities respond to Supreme Court ruling
    ...
    The ruling effectively dismantles a landmark 2014 legal framework known as Cheshire West, which established a universal “acid test”. This means that if someone lacks the mental capacity to consent to their care and living arrangements, is under continuous supervision and control, and is not free to leave, they were legally ‘deprived of their liberty’. This triggered vital legal safeguards (DoLS), requiring an independent assessor to regularly inspect care homes, supported living arrangements, and locked units to ensure the placement is safe, justified, and in the person’s best interests. Today’s decision tears up those protections.

    https://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/the-biggest-rollback-of-disability-rights-in-a-generation-charities-respond-to-supreme-court-ruling/

    Those zany funsters on the SC bench have done it again – and not just forcing trans people into disabled toilets.

    Press Summary.

    https://supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2025_0042_press_summary_3c58c87fdc.pdf

    (IMHO having been to the SC and lost, the SC usually get these spot on. If someone's nose is out of joint, there's usually something in the background that's not immediately apparent)
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 29,370
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    So M&S have made a rod for their own backs by having a Mens and an Anybody fitting room. WTF?
    Indeed. I’m not sure what they were thinking there: it’s asking for trouble in the current political environment.

    It might be that stores going through refurb have switched previously gendered changing rooms to gender neutral after being fitted with proper full length lockable doors & so on? So if the Mens in a given store (say) still had curtains & no locks M+S might be leaving them gendered until they re-fit them?
    So where is the claim that "gender critical" people are objecting to properly implemented universal, individually lockable changing facilities then?

    Objecting to M&S having a badly thought through and poorly implemented scheme is entirely reasonable and not the same thing.

    They messed up and need to fix it. That is a practical matter that is reasonable to point out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608

    Severely disabled people can now consent to care arrangements, Supreme Court rules

    Severely disabled people aged 16 and over will now be able to give consent to their care arrangements despite not having the capacity to do so, the Supreme Court has ruled.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e2lq58p87o

    ‘The biggest rollback of disability rights in a generation’ – Charities respond to Supreme Court ruling
    ...
    The ruling effectively dismantles a landmark 2014 legal framework known as Cheshire West, which established a universal “acid test”. This means that if someone lacks the mental capacity to consent to their care and living arrangements, is under continuous supervision and control, and is not free to leave, they were legally ‘deprived of their liberty’. This triggered vital legal safeguards (DoLS), requiring an independent assessor to regularly inspect care homes, supported living arrangements, and locked units to ensure the placement is safe, justified, and in the person’s best interests. Today’s decision tears up those protections.

    https://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/the-biggest-rollback-of-disability-rights-in-a-generation-charities-respond-to-supreme-court-ruling/

    Those zany funsters on the SC bench have done it again – and not just forcing trans people into disabled toilets.

    The article is not particularly helpful for a newcomer on this issue, but if in a previous case the court created a situation which in this case the court says was not quite right, at least in these particular circumstances, then possibly it is an issue where politicians need to create some clarity through a law.

    The ruling, which will also be applied in England, Wales, and Scotland, as well as Northern Ireland, has said that a multifactorial approach will now be used in determining whether someone is deprived of their liberty, external.

    Significantly a person's own wishes and preferences will be taken into consideration, however, unless they indicate an objection, it's unlikely that their living arrangements will be considered a deprivation of liberty.

    It could potentially prove challenging for those in charge of providing care, as the court has acknowledged that people's ability to express their attitude towards their care arrangement will vary from case to case.

    Northern Ireland's health minister now has the legal power to revise the Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards (doLS) Code of Practice, which oversees care arrangements for people without sufficient mental capacity.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
    Not long IMHO

    When Burnham wins the leadership and pivots left the Corbynite hard left will go back to Labour and that will leave the environment loving NIMBY brigade

    Quite where it leaves Zack remains to be seen
    Are parties doing well less likely to split? Why split when you’re winning?

    That said, Reform did see splits while they were doing well, but those were driven by interpersonal tensions between Farage and others.
    Your Party aren’t winning and, aside from a few inner city areas, neither are the Greens.

    I suspect when Burnham pivots left Greens on the left will go back.
    Your Party aren't winning,
    They are barely even existing.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,645

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
    Not long IMHO

    When Burnham wins the leadership and pivots left the Corbynite hard left will go back to Labour and that will leave the environment loving NIMBY brigade

    Quite where it leaves Zack remains to be seen
    Are parties doing well less likely to split? Why split when you’re winning?

    That said, Reform did see splits while they were doing well, but those were driven by interpersonal tensions between Farage and others.
    Your Party aren’t winning and, aside from a few inner city areas, neither are the Greens.

    I suspect when Burnham pivots left Greens on the left will go back.
    Your Party aren't winning, but the Greens are doing better than they have ever done before. Most MPs ever. Most local councillors ever. Most directly-elected mayors ever. Most councils led ever. Most Senedd members ever. Equal most London Assembly members ever. Most MSPs ever (although they're a separate party). Highest polling ever.
    Their polling numbers have fallen back.

    As for the rest. It could be peak green. We will see.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,439
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leaving aside the obvious community note, I'm confused by the progression of the images of the attempted meme.


    That just shows that you aren't a Maoist, and couldn't become one even if you wanted.

    Sorry.
    I did once read a pamphlet left behind on a train about how trotskyites were the real enemies of the working class, I learned a lot that day.
    Ahem

    The principal contradiction of the contemporary epoch is no longer between labour and capital, but between the Working Class and the Working Class. Through decades of ideological contamination, the masses have abandoned revolutionary consciousness in favour of consumerism, football scores, discount televisions, and reactionary opinions acquired from the nearest public house. The proletariat, once heralded as the gravedigger of capitalism, has instead become its most diligent groundskeeper, faithfully reproducing bourgeois social relations while simultaneously complaining about them. Every worker is oppressed by capital, yet each worker also serves as a transmission belt for false consciousness, ensuring that genuine revolution remains permanently scheduled for next Tuesday.

    Accordingly, the vanguard must recognise that the greatest obstacle to proletarian liberation is the proletariat itself. The worker who questions the Party line is objectively serving capital. The worker who agrees with the Party line is merely demonstrating the minimum acceptable level of ideological hygiene. The worker who remains undecided is engaging in counter-revolutionary fence-sitting. Thus, through rigorous dialectical analysis, we conclude that all sections of the working class are enemies of the working class, with the possible exception of a small study group of 4 theorists who have correctly interpreted all 2,447 volumes of revolutionary doctrine. History advances not through class struggle alone, but through increasingly specific denunciations of everyone who was previously considered an ally.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,333

    Pretty much agree with all of that with the exception of this bit:

    "[2] But see the EHRC guidance, which excludes trans people from opposite toilets AND from same-sex toilets if their appearance is objectionable, AND (in certain circs) from third space toilets if it is not possible/feasible to have them"

    Really? Thats not my understanding

    See the draft EHRC guidance here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/equality-act-2010-draft-code-of-practice-for-services-public-functions-and-associations-2026/equality-act-2010-draft-code-of-practice-for-services-public-functions-and-associations-2026#enforcement

    “13.145 If it is justified to provide a separate or single-sex service, then it will not be unlawful discrimination because of gender reassignment to prevent, limit or modify trans people’s access to the service for their own sex, as long as doing so is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim (schedule 3, paragraph 28).

    13.146 For example, a trans man might be excluded from the women-only service if the service provider decides that, because he presents as a man, other service users could reasonably object to his presence, and excluding him is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. ”

    The section titled “Policies and exceptions for separate and single-sex services” twists itself into pretzel shaped knots to try and square the obligation that the Equality Act 2010 places on them to simultaneously not discriminate on the basis of sex or trans status whilst allowing the carve outs in the Act that permit discrimination on the basis of (biological) sex for approved purposes. But the above paragraphs make it very clear that they believe a trans-man who looks like a man can be excluded from female only services.

    The text is full of mealy mouthed cop-outs of the form “The service provider ... should consider whether the disadvantage to trans people ... outweighs the benefits of achieving the legitimate aim.” Which is EHRC-speak for “you’re on your own if you rely on this guidance, have fun in court!”
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,333

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    Phil said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the police - and indeed other public services - what @Nigelb said in response to my comment on the previous thread goes to the heart of the issue.

    "It ought not to be difficult to understand that training to deal with existing prejudices cannot mean replacing them with new ones."

    It ought not to be. But I rather fear that that is exactly what has happened. Too many public services have adopted new prejudices and created conflicts of interest which impede the proper exercise of their functions.

    Exactly. In the rush to avoid being seen as racist the police have now been totally captured by a narrative that only whites can be the bad guy in a situation like this.

    Its also why we have so many happy to comply with the latest DEI bullshit around 'gender' to the utter disregard of womens' rights.

    Our Uni is planning on not following the recent government advice, it seems.

    "On 21 May 2026, the EHRC Code of Practice following the Supreme Court's ruling defining sex within the Equalities Act (2010) was presented to Parliament. With this news, we want to reaffirm our commitment to ensuring dignity, safety and respect for all people on campus, including our trans, non-binary and intersex staff, students and visitors. As a University, we have zero tolerance for harassment, intimidation, or discrimination, including transphobia, in line with our Dignity and Respect Policy, and we will act where concerns are raised.

    Parliament now has 40 days to consider the Code of Practice before a date is set for it to be enacted. The EHRC Code of Practice will automatically come into force if Parliament does not pass a resolution against it within 40 days. We will use this period to consider all of the implications of the Code for the University.

    In the meantime, students and staff should continue to use the gendered spaces - including toilets and changing rooms - that align with their gender identity. No one should be questioned or challenged for doing so. If anyone does experience questioning, confrontation, or behaviour that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, this can be reported immediately through the Support and Report tool so that appropriate action will be taken.

    In addition to gendered facilities, all gender toilets are available across campus. These can be located using the campus map, if you prefer to use them.

    We believe that actions speak louder than words when it comes to pursuing equity for LGBTQ+ people within the University community. Discussions are currently underway with Campus Infrastructure, Campus Services, and the Health and Safety Team to establish a clear, long term University policy for toilet provision across campus."
    Look at it this way. They are giving women a cast iron case for indirect discrimination claims, reporting to the HSE for breach of health & safety rules (a criminal offence) and possibly also a breach of the regulations in place since October 2024 to take steps to prevent sexual harassment of staff.

    This will provide lots of work for all my lawyer friends specialising in this area of the law.
    They are also facilitating criminal offences such as voyeurism and indecent exposure and in breach of their safeguarding obligations to students.

    Telling a woman faced with a man staring at her while she is changing that she must not query his presence or challenge him is to undermine the steps she needs to take to keep herself safe. It is grotesque advice. Utterly grotesque. It tells women - put up with fear, risk or crime - and don't you dare do anything to protect yourself because the feelings of the man making you feel at risk are more important.

    I'd like to ask men here with daughters? Is that what you tell them? Is that what your advice is? And if it isn't why is it ok for a place which has a duty of care to them to give such advice?
    I'd go with Linehan's tweet, the one that got him into trouble with the police (and which the police have grudgingly admitted was a wrongful arrest)

    "If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls."

    Its a joke, but it portrays real situations.
    Linehan is talking balls I'm afraid. A woman will challenge but will not be violent because she knows that in a physical confrontation with a man she will lose. So she will try to defuse or flee. That then is used by activists to say women don't object which is nonsense too.

    Women rely on men behaving decently and no men, whether trans or not, should go into a women only space and universities and others need to have procedures which reinforce that decency and so not put the onus of challenge on women or actively tell them not to. What this university is doing is telling women to put up with indecent behaviour and, far from reinforcing equality, it is putting the demands of a subset of men above all other considerations, including the law.
    He's joking, of course.

    I agree with you, and strongly support Sex Matters, but I do think that the 'toilet thing' is focused on much too much.

    Years ago women and men toilets were kind of loose terms I think. I mean, in pubs and clubs I saw women use the men's loo many times (no one cared). Sure men using women's loos was uncommon (and sometimes a genuine mistake) but they'd get a bollocking at the most I think.

    I don't recall women's loos every being described as a 'safe space'. When did this change?

    I think things were better when we were relaxed and cool about such things rather than being all legalistic and censorious.
    There didn’t used to be a group of fetishistic men who would get off on being in the women’s room, making the women uncomfortable at best, and victims of indencency or sexual assault at worst.
    I think this is exagerrated.
    What do you mean by 'fetishistic'?
    That there is a sexual motive to their actions.
    Yes that's what I thought you meant. But is it true? I know there are exceptions but men who identify as women are not at all sexually motivated to use the women's facilities. They want to re-affirm their chosen identity, surely? They may be genuine/narcissistic/deluded but such people are not a threat to women are they.
    Not all such people, sure, but the activist group members very much fall into that category, they *want* to make regular women uncomfortable. @cyclefree will probably say that having a penis means you shouldn’t be in the women’s room, which in my mind seems to be a reasonable place to draw the line.

    There’s even a medical term for it, autogynephilia, as distinct from gender disphoria.
    In fairness to m'learned colleague @Cyclefree, she insists that the status of "biological male" is set at birth (conception?) and is not altered by any genital surgery. Your statement seems to believe that trans women without a penis are still allowed in women's toilets. If my preliminary reading ( @RochdalePioneers and @malcolmg asked me to look into it ) is correct, they are not.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the current legal position was that, after the redefinition of the terms of the Equality Act to achieve internal consistency, anywhere where gendered facilities are required in law now has to split those facilities on the basis of biological sex (whoever the judges decide to precisely define that if a case ever comes to court). That doesn’t currently extend to places where facilities are offered to the public by a venue without legal obligation for them to be split by gender.

    So, for instance, changing rooms in Marks & Spencer can be split any way M+S management prefers, subject to meeting their duty of care to staff and the public, because there’s no law that states that M+S must supply changing rooms divided on the basis of (biological) sex. Meanwhile changing rooms in workplaces & hospitals must be split on the basis of biological sex, because they are required by law to exist & the Equality Act now states that the division on the basis of sex must be biological sex.

    Have I mis-understood?
    My understanding is slightly different. The purpose of the Equalities Act is to prevent discrimination by sex. It provides a number of carve outs so that you may but are not obliged to discriminate by sex in specified situations, for example in provision of education, sports, changing rooms. The direction from the Supreme Court is that this discrimination may only be made on the basis of biological sex and not gender. ie you discriminate by sex or not at all. Many organisations will decide not to split services by sex even if they can, either because they don't agree with the discrimination as currently allowed or it's just easier not to go there.

    There are a small number of government regulations that mandate separate facilities for men and women that are outwith the Equalities Act.
    Yes - I should have added that any split M+S makes has to be justifiable under the Equality Act. Which is of course why so many of these places are implementing gender neutral changing - they hope it will enable them to avoid the entire controversy.

    The Gender Crit crowd are having none of this, naturally, so those shops are going to find themselves the targets of action & I expect a push for gendered changing to made explicitly required in law. I expect the next Reform government to be particularly receptive to this lobbying.
    Gender neutral facilities can be an option but simply putting an all-welcome sticker over the existing one on the door does not make it gender neutral.

    Neutral facilities must be single occupant use behind a lock. Including the sink.

    Many places have that for eg disabled facilities, so they can be gender neutral and open to all. But if you have communal sinks, then it must be one sex or the other, not neutral.
    I was thinking of changing rooms above, so the sink thing doesn’t apply, but yes - this is my understanding too.

    Same thing applies then, can be gender-neutral so long as it is lockable cubicles that you are getting changed in, as far as I am aware.

    Centerparcs does this well, there is a single changing room for everyone to use but then it is arrays of cubicles within that room. Everyone has their own private space to get changed in (either solo/couples or families as appropriate), nobody getting changed in front of anyone else.

    So long as it is lockable, there's no problem. The problem is if you have a communal open changing space then you can't just slap an "all welcome" sticker on that. Sex neutral means redesigning the space and ensuring it is all individually lockable spaces.

    Make the spaces all individually lockable and sex is moot.
    You’d hope this would be uncontroversial, but the Gender Crit crowd have recently started campaigning against shops with gender neutral changing rooms where each space has floor to ceiling walls & a lockable door with no gap underneath or above.

    They’re going to push harder on this.
    So M&S have made a rod for their own backs by having a Mens and an Anybody fitting room. WTF?
    Indeed. I’m not sure what they were thinking there: it’s asking for trouble in the current political environment.

    It might be that stores going through refurb have switched previously gendered changing rooms to gender neutral after being fitted with proper full length lockable doors & so on? So if the Mens in a given store (say) still had curtains & no locks M+S might be leaving them gendered until they re-fit them?
    So where is the claim that "gender critical" people are objecting to properly implemented universal, individually lockable changing facilities then?

    Objecting to M&S having a badly thought through and poorly implemented scheme is entirely reasonable and not the same thing.

    They messed up and need to fix it. That is a practical matter that is reasonable to point out.
    They’re also going after Next & other high street shops.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,419
    kle4 said:

    Severely disabled people can now consent to care arrangements, Supreme Court rules

    Severely disabled people aged 16 and over will now be able to give consent to their care arrangements despite not having the capacity to do so, the Supreme Court has ruled.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e2lq58p87o

    ‘The biggest rollback of disability rights in a generation’ – Charities respond to Supreme Court ruling
    ...
    The ruling effectively dismantles a landmark 2014 legal framework known as Cheshire West, which established a universal “acid test”. This means that if someone lacks the mental capacity to consent to their care and living arrangements, is under continuous supervision and control, and is not free to leave, they were legally ‘deprived of their liberty’. This triggered vital legal safeguards (DoLS), requiring an independent assessor to regularly inspect care homes, supported living arrangements, and locked units to ensure the placement is safe, justified, and in the person’s best interests. Today’s decision tears up those protections.

    https://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/the-biggest-rollback-of-disability-rights-in-a-generation-charities-respond-to-supreme-court-ruling/

    Those zany funsters on the SC bench have done it again – and not just forcing trans people into disabled toilets.

    The article is not particularly helpful for a newcomer on this issue, but if in a previous case the court created a situation which in this case the court says was not quite right, at least in these particular circumstances, then possibly it is an issue where politicians need to create some clarity through a law.

    The ruling, which will also be applied in England, Wales, and Scotland, as well as Northern Ireland, has said that a multifactorial approach will now be used in determining whether someone is deprived of their liberty, external.

    Significantly a person's own wishes and preferences will be taken into consideration, however, unless they indicate an objection, it's unlikely that their living arrangements will be considered a deprivation of liberty.

    It could potentially prove challenging for those in charge of providing care, as the court has acknowledged that people's ability to express their attitude towards their care arrangement will vary from case to case.

    Northern Ireland's health minister now has the legal power to revise the Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards (doLS) Code of Practice, which oversees care arrangements for people without sufficient mental capacity.
    The SC appear to have seriously fucked up in both directions
    1) Someone without mental capacity to look after themselves can't be deprived of their freedom - for example someone with dementia but physically active who wants to go outside and play in the traffic can't be locked in for their own safety
    2) Someone without mental capacity whose representative thinks their care is not in their best interest (left soiled etc) can be coerced into saying they are happy with the care.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,699
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
    Not long IMHO

    When Burnham wins the leadership and pivots left the Corbynite hard left will go back to Labour and that will leave the environment loving NIMBY brigade

    Quite where it leaves Zack remains to be seen
    Are parties doing well less likely to split? Why split when you’re winning?

    That said, Reform did see splits while they were doing well, but those were driven by interpersonal tensions between Farage and others.
    Your Party aren’t winning and, aside from a few inner city areas, neither are the Greens.

    I suspect when Burnham pivots left Greens on the left will go back.
    Your Party aren't winning, but the Greens are doing better than they have ever done before. Most MPs ever. Most local councillors ever. Most directly-elected mayors ever. Most councils led ever. Most Senedd members ever. Equal most London Assembly members ever. Most MSPs ever (although they're a separate party). Highest polling ever.
    Their polling numbers have fallen back.

    As for the rest. It could be peak green. We will see.
    Their polling numbers have fallen back a bit. They are still above any polling they received before this year, aren't they? Maybe it's peak Green, and I wouldn't mind if it was, but I think they're generally pretty happy within the party at the moment.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,253
    edited June 2

    Pretty much agree with all of that with the exception of this bit:

    "[2] But see the EHRC guidance, which excludes trans people from opposite toilets AND from same-sex toilets if their appearance is objectionable, AND (in certain circs) from third space toilets if it is not possible/feasible to have them"

    Really? Thats not my understanding

    Proceed as follows:

    1) Go to https://www.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2026/03/22/your-friend-susan/
    2) Click on the bit that says "Appendices can be downloaded here" or see this link https://www.politicalbetting.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/i8y3e8i8xgtn.docx
    3) Go to the Twelfth Appendices, specifically:
    1. Appendix 12b: Toilet Access To Trans People
    2. Appendix 12c. Use Of The Word “Should” Vs “Must”
    3. Appendix 12d. Worked Example One
    4. Appendix 12e. Worked Example Two
    Appendix 12b explains how a trans man (FTM in old money) can be disqualified from
    …using the toilet of their birth sex - EHRC Guidance Section 13.5.5 and 13.5.6 says this explicitly
    …using the toilet of the opposite birth sex - EHRC Guidance Section 13.3.7 says this explicitly and EHRC Guidance Sections 13.3.11 and 13.3.12 give examples of this
    …using any other toilet - Although EHRC Guidance Section 13.5.7 says this is very unlikely to be proportionate, Section 13.4.8 gives a list of reasons why this is permissible

    Worked examples one and two give scenarios where the trans man ("your other friend Kevin") is disqualified from two or more toilets.

    (section numbers refer to the leaked final guidance or the interim guidance. The published final guidance may have different numbers)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,278
    British MAGA latest:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    5m
    Reform really are descending into the gutter now. This is a total distortion of what Kemi Badenoch actually said. It’s another example of their increasingly desperate efforts to neutralise Restore.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2061839434367070617
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,832

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leaving aside the obvious community note, I'm confused by the progression of the images of the attempted meme.


    That just shows that you aren't a Maoist, and couldn't become one even if you wanted.

    Sorry.
    I did once read a pamphlet left behind on a train about how trotskyites were the real enemies of the working class, I learned a lot that day.
    Ahem

    The principal contradiction of the contemporary epoch is no longer between labour and capital, but between the Working Class and the Working Class. Through decades of ideological contamination, the masses have abandoned revolutionary consciousness in favour of consumerism, football scores, discount televisions, and reactionary opinions acquired from the nearest public house. The proletariat, once heralded as the gravedigger of capitalism, has instead become its most diligent groundskeeper, faithfully reproducing bourgeois social relations while simultaneously complaining about them. Every worker is oppressed by capital, yet each worker also serves as a transmission belt for false consciousness, ensuring that genuine revolution remains permanently scheduled for next Tuesday.

    Accordingly, the vanguard must recognise that the greatest obstacle to proletarian liberation is the proletariat itself. The worker who questions the Party line is objectively serving capital. The worker who agrees with the Party line is merely demonstrating the minimum acceptable level of ideological hygiene. The worker who remains undecided is engaging in counter-revolutionary fence-sitting. Thus, through rigorous dialectical analysis, we conclude that all sections of the working class are enemies of the working class, with the possible exception of a small study group of 4 theorists who have correctly interpreted all 2,447 volumes of revolutionary doctrine. History advances not through class struggle alone, but through increasingly specific denunciations of everyone who was previously considered an ally.
    I'm glad you have seen the light, comrade.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,608

    British MAGA latest:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    5m
    Reform really are descending into the gutter now. This is a total distortion of what Kemi Badenoch actually said. It’s another example of their increasingly desperate efforts to neutralise Restore.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2061839434367070617

    The gutter is where they are comfortable. It's also, unfortunately, where a lot of votes are.

    Hopefully not that many, but enough to chase.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,253
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    The Greens under Zack attack ate their lunch. They’re dead.

    And when Burnham wins Labour pivots left and kills the greens surge. Just look at the Compass twitter feed for what to expect

    How long before the Greens split?
    Not long IMHO

    When Burnham wins the leadership and pivots left the Corbynite hard left will go back to Labour and that will leave the environment loving NIMBY brigade

    Quite where it leaves Zack remains to be seen
    Are parties doing well less likely to split? Why split when you’re winning?

    That said, Reform did see splits while they were doing well, but those were driven by interpersonal tensions between Farage and others.
    Your Party aren’t winning and, aside from a few inner city areas, neither are the Greens.

    I suspect when Burnham pivots left Greens on the left will go back.
    Your Party aren't winning, but the Greens are doing better than they have ever done before. Most MPs ever. Most local councillors ever. Most directly-elected mayors ever. Most councils led ever. Most Senedd members ever. Equal most London Assembly members ever. Most MSPs ever (although they're a separate party). Highest polling ever.
    Their polling numbers have fallen back.

    As for the rest. It could be peak green. We will see.
    They should bake biscuits...

    ...then they could have peak green digestives.

    :):):)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,950
    "Weight-loss drugs killed my appetite for life
    Damian Thompson" (£)

    https://spectator.com/article/weight-loss-drugs-killed-my-appetite-for-life
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,210
    Phil said:

    Pretty much agree with all of that with the exception of this bit:

    "[2] But see the EHRC guidance, which excludes trans people from opposite toilets AND from same-sex toilets if their appearance is objectionable, AND (in certain circs) from third space toilets if it is not possible/feasible to have them"

    Really? Thats not my understanding

    See the draft EHRC guidance here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/equality-act-2010-draft-code-of-practice-for-services-public-functions-and-associations-2026/equality-act-2010-draft-code-of-practice-for-services-public-functions-and-associations-2026#enforcement

    “13.145 If it is justified to provide a separate or single-sex service, then it will not be unlawful discrimination because of gender reassignment to prevent, limit or modify trans people’s access to the service for their own sex, as long as doing so is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim (schedule 3, paragraph 28).

    13.146 For example, a trans man might be excluded from the women-only service if the service provider decides that, because he presents as a man, other service users could reasonably object to his presence, and excluding him is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. ”

    The section titled “Policies and exceptions for separate and single-sex services” twists itself into pretzel shaped knots to try and square the obligation that the Equality Act 2010 places on them to simultaneously not discriminate on the basis of sex or trans status whilst allowing the carve outs in the Act that permit discrimination on the basis of (biological) sex for approved purposes. But the above paragraphs make it very clear that they believe a trans-man who looks like a man can be excluded from female only services.

    The text is full of mealy mouthed cop-outs of the form “The service provider ... should consider whether the disadvantage to trans people ... outweighs the benefits of achieving the legitimate aim.” Which is EHRC-speak for “you’re on your own if you rely on this guidance, have fun in court!”
    Ah yes, biological sex trumps gender except when it doesn't. Glad the SC cleared that up.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,645
    kle4 said:

    I see Southampton are trying to pull the old 'We didn't benefit from our cheating, so punishing us is unfair' gambit. That's like a store robber saying they should be let off from attempted theft because there was no money in the till.

    I only wanted to clean the till m’lud. Just trying to be helpful
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,422
    Meanwhile, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/02/motorhome-peter-murrell-snp-money-high-court-edinburgh

    "He created false invoices, used the wrong codes for some items in the party’s books, transferred money directly out of the party’s accounts and used his SNP charge card and those of two SNP employees, without their knowledge, to buy things."

    Daft bastard. But also, terrible and appalling financial admin by the SNP. No four eyes process? That's just asking for trouble.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,604
    Dopermean said:

    kle4 said:

    Severely disabled people can now consent to care arrangements, Supreme Court rules

    Severely disabled people aged 16 and over will now be able to give consent to their care arrangements despite not having the capacity to do so, the Supreme Court has ruled.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e2lq58p87o

    ‘The biggest rollback of disability rights in a generation’ – Charities respond to Supreme Court ruling
    ...
    The ruling effectively dismantles a landmark 2014 legal framework known as Cheshire West, which established a universal “acid test”. This means that if someone lacks the mental capacity to consent to their care and living arrangements, is under continuous supervision and control, and is not free to leave, they were legally ‘deprived of their liberty’. This triggered vital legal safeguards (DoLS), requiring an independent assessor to regularly inspect care homes, supported living arrangements, and locked units to ensure the placement is safe, justified, and in the person’s best interests. Today’s decision tears up those protections.

    https://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/the-biggest-rollback-of-disability-rights-in-a-generation-charities-respond-to-supreme-court-ruling/

    Those zany funsters on the SC bench have done it again – and not just forcing trans people into disabled toilets.

    The article is not particularly helpful for a newcomer on this issue, but if in a previous case the court created a situation which in this case the court says was not quite right, at least in these particular circumstances, then possibly it is an issue where politicians need to create some clarity through a law.

    The ruling, which will also be applied in England, Wales, and Scotland, as well as Northern Ireland, has said that a multifactorial approach will now be used in determining whether someone is deprived of their liberty, external.

    Significantly a person's own wishes and preferences will be taken into consideration, however, unless they indicate an objection, it's unlikely that their living arrangements will be considered a deprivation of liberty.

    It could potentially prove challenging for those in charge of providing care, as the court has acknowledged that people's ability to express their attitude towards their care arrangement will vary from case to case.

    Northern Ireland's health minister now has the legal power to revise the Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards (doLS) Code of Practice, which oversees care arrangements for people without sufficient mental capacity.
    The SC appear to have seriously fucked up in both directions
    1) Someone without mental capacity to look after themselves can't be deprived of their freedom - for example someone with dementia but physically active who wants to go outside and play in the traffic can't be locked in for their own safety
    2) Someone without mental capacity whose representative thinks their care is not in their best interest (left soiled etc) can be coerced into saying they are happy with the care.
    If you read the summary, there is a frequent referral to Strasbourg court’s case law on Article 5. It appears that Cheshire West may have been correct on the information and case law at the time but that has now changed. So on reflection, they have gutted Cheshire West.

    It's a good example of how the law progresses in the background and what you thought is legal (or vice versa) suddenly becomes null and void.

    Toilets anyone?
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