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Where the Streeting has no names as Rayner becomes the favourite to be next PM –politicalbetting.com

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,413

    Sweeney74 said:

    Al Carns for PM

    Pretty bold move given he has been in parliament about 5 minutes.
    Who dares wins.

    Yeah, I know he was a marine but same starry eyed nitwittery over a sniff of a (wo)man in uniform applied.
    If Labour were looking for a LoTo, I could perhaps see it. The David Cameron move. But Starmer, Mr Technocrat, can't get anything moving, what is the chance of a bloke who has been in parliament 5 minutes and never held any big govenrment roles being able to unlock that (also I highly doubt when he got his seat he thought I will be leader in 2 years, so again, what deep thinking about policy will have been done).

    He also has the Son of a Toolmaker tick, every interview, "when I was in the military, we did x". Also, he can really quite prickerly when pushed by interviewers, you get the feeling he is very close to tell to shut the fuck up, I'm in charge. Being leader that is turned up to 11.
    OTOH I’ve considered it unlikely that a Scot would ever lead a main(sic) UK party again but the steely jawed action man thing might counter that. I suppose a politician that doesn’t look a total dick in a fall jacket would be a novelty. Paul Mason might have a fatal orgasm.

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/will-labour-learn-to-love-defence/
    You Scots are so parochial.

    Right now the Tories are led by a woman with the surname Badenoch, you cannot get more Scottish than that.
    I don't THINK she herself is Scots though? Is she?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,258

    Sweeney74 said:

    Al Carns for PM

    Pretty bold move given he has been in parliament about 5 minutes.
    Who dares wins.

    Yeah, I know he was a marine but same starry eyed nitwittery over a sniff of a (wo)man in uniform applied.
    If Labour were looking for a LoTo, I could perhaps see it. The David Cameron move. But Starmer, Mr Technocrat, can't get anything moving, what is the chance of a bloke who has been in parliament 5 minutes and never held any big govenrment roles being able to unlock that (also I highly doubt when he got his seat he thought I will be leader in 2 years, so again, what deep thinking about policy will have been done).

    He also has the Son of a Toolmaker tick, every interview, "when I was in the military, we did x". Also, he can really quite prickerly when pushed by interviewers, you get the feeling he is very close to tell to shut the fuck up, I'm in charge. Being leader that is turned up to 11.
    OTOH I’ve considered it unlikely that a Scot would ever lead a main(sic) UK party again but the steely jawed action man thing might counter that. I suppose a politician that doesn’t look a total dick in a fall jacket would be a novelty. Paul Mason might have a fatal orgasm.

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/will-labour-learn-to-love-defence/
    You Scots are so parochial.

    Right now the Tories are led by a woman with the surname Badenoch, you cannot get more Scottish than that.
    Surely in any sensible federal country, a political career in a devolved authority would be seen as a good stepping-stone to national government. Maybe Boris has poisoned the water.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,511
    @sundersays.bsky.social‬

    Known sporting allegiances of leading Labour politicians

    Keir Starmer - Arsenal

    Wes Streeting - Arsenal

    Andy Burnham - Everton

    Ed Miliband
    - Boston Red Sox & Leeds United

    Angela Rayner - Ashton United
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,320
    Streeting really doesn’t have a choice now . If he doesn’t go for it then his supportive MPs have gone above the parapet for nothing . At least if he goes and loses he might get a job in the cabinet of a new leader .

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,884

    DavidL said:

    Did I read on this site that Streeting has been engaged to the same guy for 13 years? Perhaps we are all overestimating his decisiveness.

    He's been in a relationship with the same guy for ~13 years, but only engaged since 2022. Albeit, that's still quite a long engagement. I thought we were slow when we took ~two years to sort it out.
    It took me ages to wear down my better half and get her to say yes. I think it was the third or fourth time of asking. As soon as she did we got on with it and were married 10 months later. Its worked out pretty well so far.
  • Leon_VotedForStarmerLeon_VotedForStarmer Posts: 69,000
    edited May 14

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was a kid I was quite into model making (mainly railways) and constructing buildings from cardboard. Memory plays tricks I'm sure but I seem to recall having to struggle to get cardboard back in the day. Now we seem to drown in cardboard (we often fill two full size recycling bins over a two week cycle). Same for clear plastic (useful for windows).

    Point is the way we get food from the shops has changed. Its massively well/over packaged. Add in the fast food, and yes, a lesser regard for community behaviour and we are where we are.

    Do I falsely remember a trial of littering penalties tied to income? And a woman who dropped an apple core out of her car window being fined a huge amount?

    Other approaches - many towns and villages organise tidying up and litter picking days. This is to be encouraged.
    It’s also one of those simple but do-able things that as @RochdalePioneers has said: would make so much difference

    And it is totally doable. Kazakhstan is immaculately clean. Why? Because they’ve made it a national obsession. There are signs everywhere. If you go to a national park they give you a litter bag and a stern warning to leave nothing behind

    And if you break the rules the police come and get you and they slap a harsh fine on you. No quibbling. And if you fly tip you basically go to jail

    We need to treat littering (and graffiti and fly tipping and the rest) the way we treated drunk driving. Make it simultaneously reviled as a grave sin and come down very hard on whoever does it

    We just lack the will. If we did it our towns and cities would be spotless in a year and a virtuous pride would return. Leading to more social benefits
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,258

    Sweeney74 said:

    Al Carns for PM

    Pretty bold move given he has been in parliament about 5 minutes.
    Who dares wins.

    Yeah, I know he was a marine but same starry eyed nitwittery over a sniff of a (wo)man in uniform applied.
    If Labour were looking for a LoTo, I could perhaps see it. The David Cameron move. But Starmer, Mr Technocrat, can't get anything moving, what is the chance of a bloke who has been in parliament 5 minutes and never held any big govenrment roles being able to unlock that (also I highly doubt when he got his seat he thought I will be leader in 2 years, so again, what deep thinking about policy will have been done).

    He also has the Son of a Toolmaker tick, every interview, "when I was in the military, we did x". Also, he can really quite prickerly when pushed by interviewers, you get the feeling he is very close to tell to shut the fuck up, I'm in charge. Being leader that is turned up to 11.
    OTOH I’ve considered it unlikely that a Scot would ever lead a main(sic) UK party again but the steely jawed action man thing might counter that. I suppose a politician that doesn’t look a total dick in a fall jacket would be a novelty. Paul Mason might have a fatal orgasm.

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/will-labour-learn-to-love-defence/
    You Scots are so parochial.

    Right now the Tories are led by a woman with the surname Badenoch, you cannot get more Scottish than that.
    I don't THINK she herself is Scots though? Is she?
    No, she's English. A Londoner.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,832
    Dura_Ace said:

    This emergent trend of getting all damp in the gusset over any politician with a military background is ludicrous.

    There's hope for you yet if you dust off your full mess uniform.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,334

    Why do people pay £4 for a coffee, sit in the cafe to drink it - out of a cardboard cup, through that silly little hole in the plastic lid? Have they no soul?

    A guy on this food trip told me his 19 year old son (who lives at home with Dad) gets up in the morning then orders a Starbucks latte to be DELIVERED by uber eats

    Got the impression, Dad was not impressed
    After a little practice, I can make a better flat white with my Sage Bambino than Starbucks can. I use better coffee too.

    Less than £300, pays for itself after 100 coffees.
    The chaps in the office bought one of those pod machines – convenience and quality without the fuss of bean to cup.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,258
    dixiedean said:

    Cos I drink my coffee black it's always a thermonuclear temperature. The lid comes off asap to give it half an hour to reach drinkable temperature.

    The Italians do it better. You can buy un caffè, knock it back, and walk straight out
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,507

    Sweeney74 said:

    Al Carns for PM

    Pretty bold move given he has been in parliament about 5 minutes.
    Who dares wins.

    Yeah, I know he was a marine but same starry eyed nitwittery over a sniff of a (wo)man in uniform applied.
    If Labour were looking for a LoTo, I could perhaps see it. The David Cameron move. But Starmer, Mr Technocrat, can't get anything moving, what is the chance of a bloke who has been in parliament 5 minutes and never held any big govenrment roles being able to unlock that (also I highly doubt when he got his seat he thought I will be leader in 2 years, so again, what deep thinking about policy will have been done).

    He also has the Son of a Toolmaker tick, every interview, "when I was in the military, we did x". Also, he can really quite prickerly when pushed by interviewers, you get the feeling he is very close to tell to shut the fuck up, I'm in charge. Being leader that is turned up to 11.
    OTOH I’ve considered it unlikely that a Scot would ever lead a main(sic) UK party again but the steely jawed action man thing might counter that. I suppose a politician that doesn’t look a total dick in a fall jacket would be a novelty. Paul Mason might have a fatal orgasm.

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/will-labour-learn-to-love-defence/
    You Scots are so parochial.

    Right now the Tories are led by a woman with the surname Badenoch, you cannot get more Scottish than that.
    I don't THINK she herself is Scots though? Is she?
    No, she's English. A Londoner.
    But Shirley, if a non-UK citizen can be a Proper Scot, even The English must be allowed to identify as Scottish?

    Or is that a bridge too far, for even the most progressive?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,566
    edited May 14
    Scott_xP said:

    @sundersays.bsky.social‬

    Known sporting allegiances of leading Labour politicians

    Keir Starmer - Arsenal

    Wes Streeting - Arsenal

    Andy Burnham - Everton

    Ed Miliband
    - Boston Red Sox & Leeds United

    Angela Rayner - Ashton United

    Being a Dirty Leeds fan shows Ed Miliband isn't fit to be PM.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,333

    Whilst I was doing my research on Wes Streeting, his partner stood and lost in the 2024 general election, and has previously worked as a SPAD for Baroness Amos, Lord Coe, and some chap called Lord Mandelson.

    Joe Dancey, lost in Stockton West. Wes is well known to my Stockton Labour friends. They're saying nothing to me because they know I am a gobshite post on here
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,352
    Geri Scott
    @Geri_E_L_Scott
    ·
    12m
    This is of course not to suggest he has any chance of winning but some MPs *genuinely cheered* Carns when he walked into a bar last night 😅

    https://x.com/Geri_E_L_Scott/status/2054852173725360300
    ===

    I am on Carns at 75 and 24 as a couple of defensive/trading bets

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Did I read on this site that Streeting has been engaged to the same guy for 13 years? Perhaps we are all overestimating his decisiveness.

    He's been in a relationship with the same guy for ~13 years, but only engaged since 2022. Albeit, that's still quite a long engagement. I thought we were slow when we took ~two years to sort it out.
    It took me ages to wear down my better half and get her to say yes. I think it was the third or fourth time of asking. As soon as she did we got on with it and were married 10 months later. Its worked out pretty well so far.
    It did take me longer than 10 months to knit her wedding dress, and before that we had to choose a pattern and the yarn. Nothing demonstrates trust more than letting your affianced knit your wedding dress.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949

    Whilst I was doing my research on Wes Streeting, his partner stood and lost in the 2024 general election, and has previously worked as a SPAD for Baroness Amos, Lord Coe, and some chap called Lord Mandelson.

    Small world.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,352

    Scott_xP said:

    @sundersays.bsky.social‬

    Known sporting allegiances of leading Labour politicians

    Keir Starmer - Arsenal

    Wes Streeting - Arsenal

    Andy Burnham - Everton

    Ed Miliband
    - Boston Red Sox & Leeds United

    Angela Rayner - Ashton United

    Being a Dirty Leeds fan shows Ed Miliband isn't fit to be PM.
    To be fair to Ed he did actually live in Leeds for a few years as a child as his Dad was a prof at the Uni.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193

    Sweeney74 said:

    Al Carns for PM

    Pretty bold move given he has been in parliament about 5 minutes.
    Who dares wins.

    Yeah, I know he was a marine but same starry eyed nitwittery over a sniff of a (wo)man in uniform applied.
    If Labour were looking for a LoTo, I could perhaps see it. The David Cameron move. But Starmer, Mr Technocrat, can't get anything moving, what is the chance of a bloke who has been in parliament 5 minutes and never held any big govenrment roles being able to unlock that (also I highly doubt when he got his seat he thought I will be leader in 2 years, so again, what deep thinking about policy will have been done).

    He also has the Son of a Toolmaker tick, every interview, "when I was in the military, we did x". Also, he can really quite prickerly when pushed by interviewers, you get the feeling he is very close to tell to shut the fuck up, I'm in charge. Being leader that is turned up to 11.
    OTOH I’ve considered it unlikely that a Scot would ever lead a main(sic) UK party again but the steely jawed action man thing might counter that. I suppose a politician that doesn’t look a total dick in a fall jacket would be a novelty. Paul Mason might have a fatal orgasm.

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/will-labour-learn-to-love-defence/
    You Scots are so parochial.

    Right now the Tories are led by a woman with the surname Badenoch, you cannot get more Scottish than that.
    I don't THINK she herself is Scots though? Is she?
    She's a Londoner, which doesn't, in itself, preclude her from also being Scottish.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,628
    KnightOut said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful

    Apart from the bit about cars being crappier, yes.
    Cars 30 years ago were much simpler but modern cars are more reliable, efficient, safer and less polluting. So they aren't really crappier unless except in some subjective aesthetic and therefore meaningless characterisation.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,909

    Why do people pay £4 for a coffee, sit in the cafe to drink it - out of a cardboard cup, through that silly little hole in the plastic lid? Have they no soul?

    A guy on this food trip told me his 19 year old son (who lives at home with Dad) gets up in the morning then orders a Starbucks latte to be DELIVERED by uber eats

    Got the impression, Dad was not impressed
    After a little practice, I can make a better flat white with my Sage Bambino than Starbucks can. I use better coffee too.

    Less than £300, pays for itself after 100 coffees.
    The chaps in the office bought one of those pod machines – convenience and quality without the fuss of bean to cup.
    I suspect you get a lot better coffee from a bean to cup machine but my Sage Nespresso one is effortless
  • GarethoftheVale2GarethoftheVale2 Posts: 2,536

    Sweeney74 said:

    Al Carns for PM

    Pretty bold move given he has been in parliament about 5 minutes.
    Who dares wins.

    Yeah, I know he was a marine but same starry eyed nitwittery over a sniff of a (wo)man in uniform applied.
    If Labour were looking for a LoTo, I could perhaps see it. The David Cameron move. But Starmer, Mr Technocrat, can't get anything moving, what is the chance of a bloke who has been in parliament 5 minutes and never held any big govenrment roles being able to unlock that (also I highly doubt when he got his seat he thought I will be leader in 2 years, so again, what deep thinking about policy will have been done).

    He also has the Son of a Toolmaker tick, every interview, "when I was in the military, we did x". Also, he can really quite prickerly when pushed by interviewers, you get the feeling he is very close to tell to shut the fuck up, I'm in charge. Being leader that is turned up to 11.
    OTOH I’ve considered it unlikely that a Scot would ever lead a main(sic) UK party again but the steely jawed action man thing might counter that. I suppose a politician that doesn’t look a total dick in a fall jacket would be a novelty. Paul Mason might have a fatal orgasm.

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/will-labour-learn-to-love-defence/
    You Scots are so parochial.

    Right now the Tories are led by a woman with the surname Badenoch, you cannot get more Scottish than that.
    I don't THINK she herself is Scots though? Is she?
    She's a Londoner, which doesn't, in itself, preclude her from also being Scottish.
    Her husband has Scottish heritage
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,755

    I know nobody wants to say this and it’s not the whole problem. But Wes is absolutely right that at least some of the failure of Labour is down to not communicating at all when they’ve actually done good things...

    No it isn't. The laws that they pass are only part of Government. The actions of the Cabinet also count, and (as I have been listing) they are authoritarian and bad.

    Labour isn't losing because it's bad at communicating.

    It's losing because it's authoritarian, its Cabinet is implementing whatever jolly pops into their heads, it made promises it had no intention nor capability of keeping, it says whatever gibberish in interviews will get them thru the interview regardless of factual status, its policies are insane (destruction of the Royal Navy???) and its leader has no knowledge of right and wrong and has a long history of lying.

    AND it's bad at communicating.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    KnightOut said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful

    Apart from the bit about cars being crappier, yes.
    Cars 30 years ago were much simpler but modern cars are more reliable, efficient, safer and less polluting. So they aren't really crappier unless except in some subjective aesthetic and therefore meaningless characterisation.
    I meant cars thirty years ago were crappier. And they were
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was a kid I was quite into model making (mainly railways) and constructing buildings from cardboard. Memory plays tricks I'm sure but I seem to recall having to struggle to get cardboard back in the day. Now we seem to drown in cardboard (we often fill two full size recycling bins over a two week cycle). Same for clear plastic (useful for windows).

    Point is the way we get food from the shops has changed. Its massively well/over packaged. Add in the fast food, and yes, a lesser regard for community behaviour and we are where we are.

    Do I falsely remember a trial of littering penalties tied to income? And a woman who dropped an apple core out of her car window being fined a huge amount?

    Other approaches - many towns and villages organise tidying up and litter picking days. This is to be encouraged.
    It’s also one of those simple but do-able things that as @RochdalePioneers has said: would make so much difference

    And it is totally doable. Kazakhstan is immaculately clean. Why? Because they’ve made it a national obsession. There are signs everywhere. If you go to a national park they give you a litter bag and a stern warning to leave nothing behind

    And if you break the rules the police come and get you and they slap a harsh fine on you. No quibbling. And if you fly tip you basically go to jail

    We need to treat littering (and graffiti and fly tipping and the rest) the way we treated drunk driving. Make it simultaneously reviled as a grave sin and come down very hard on whoever does it

    We just lack the will. If we did it our towns and cities would be spotless in a year and a virtuous pride would return. Leading to more social benefits
    It's the broken window theory.
    Neglect begets neglect
    When the built environment is visibly crumbling, weeds everywhere, roads barely worthy of the name, overflowing litter bins, boarded up shops and what shops that are left are basically trash, why should anyone care about keeping it tidy?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,834
    https://x.com/PronouncedAlva/status/2054854668132425836

    Afzal Khan really couldn't be clearer that he won't be standing down for Andy Burnham.

    "There is no question of me resigning," he tells the NS. "I keep telling everyone that. I don't know where these rumours are coming from."
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193
    Any clue on where Al Carns stands in the political spectrum?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,832
    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    It isn't new either, probably worsened by increased takeaway packaging and the removal of public bins.

    There was loads of litter and graffiti in South London when I lived there in the Eighties. Thats why we had endless "keep Britain tidy" campaigns, and the Wombles.

    This 20 year old article shows there is nothing new under the sun.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/sep/24/comment.comment?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,334
    OT half an hour of scouse warbler Paul McCartney answering questions on The Rest is Entertainment:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNQY-zIL4zg
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,673

    dixiedean said:

    Cos I drink my coffee black it's always a thermonuclear temperature. The lid comes off asap to give it half an hour to reach drinkable temperature.

    The Italians do it better. You can buy un caffè, knock it back, and walk straight out
    I worked in Milan for a while and mid-morning every workday used to pop out for an espresso and a fag. Proper cafe, proper little cup, just perch rather than slob down, woosh, down it goes, back to the office, 15 mins max all told. Lots of people did that. It was a bit of a ritual. A good one imo.
  • viewcode said:

    I know nobody wants to say this and it’s not the whole problem. But Wes is absolutely right that at least some of the failure of Labour is down to not communicating at all when they’ve actually done good things...

    No it isn't. The laws that they pass are only part of Government. The actions of the Cabinet also count, and (as I have been listing) they are authoritarian and bad.

    Labour isn't losing because it's bad at communicating.

    It's losing because it's authoritarian, its Cabinet is implementing whatever jolly pops into their heads, it made promises it had no intention nor capability of keeping, it says whatever gibberish in interviews will get them thru the interview regardless of factual status, its policies are insane (destruction of the Royal Navy???) and its leader has no knowledge of right and wrong and has a long history of lying.

    AND it's bad at communicating.
    Communication is a massive part of government and Labour are the worst government for this in a long time.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,452

    Sweeney74 said:

    Al Carns for PM

    Pretty bold move given he has been in parliament about 5 minutes.
    Who dares wins.

    Yeah, I know he was a marine but same starry eyed nitwittery over a sniff of a (wo)man in uniform applied.
    If Labour were looking for a LoTo, I could perhaps see it. The David Cameron move. But Starmer, Mr Technocrat, can't get anything moving, what is the chance of a bloke who has been in parliament 5 minutes and never held any big govenrment roles being able to unlock that (also I highly doubt when he got his seat he thought I will be leader in 2 years, so again, what deep thinking about policy will have been done).

    He also has the Son of a Toolmaker tick, every interview, "when I was in the military, we did x". Also, he can really quite prickerly when pushed by interviewers, you get the feeling he is very close to tell to shut the fuck up, I'm in charge. Being leader that is turned up to 11.
    OTOH I’ve considered it unlikely that a Scot would ever lead a main(sic) UK party again but the steely jawed action man thing might counter that. I suppose a politician that doesn’t look a total dick in a fall jacket would be a novelty. Paul Mason might have a fatal orgasm.

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/will-labour-learn-to-love-defence/
    You Scots are so parochial.

    Right now the Tories are led by a woman with the surname Badenoch, you cannot get more Scottish than that.
    I don't THINK she herself is Scots though? Is she?
    No, she's English. A Londoner.
    But Shirley, if a non-UK citizen can be a Proper Scot, even The English must be allowed to identify as Scottish?

    Or is that a bridge too far, for even the most progressive?
    There are plenty of English heritage people in Scotland who identify as Scots and indeed some are enthusiastic Scottish nationalists. I was born in Scotland to English parents and also spent my teen years there, there was a certain amount of banter to endure but the idea of the Scots as a nation of rabid Anglophobes is a myth in my experience. I view myself as Scottish or at least Scot-ish. Kemi Badenoch would be a welcome addition to the Scottish diaspora. The way she will happily cross the street to start a fight with anyone certainly has a bit of a Scottish flavour.
  • Sweeney74 said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was a kid I was quite into model making (mainly railways) and constructing buildings from cardboard. Memory plays tricks I'm sure but I seem to recall having to struggle to get cardboard back in the day. Now we seem to drown in cardboard (we often fill two full size recycling bins over a two week cycle). Same for clear plastic (useful for windows).

    Point is the way we get food from the shops has changed. Its massively well/over packaged. Add in the fast food, and yes, a lesser regard for community behaviour and we are where we are.

    Do I falsely remember a trial of littering penalties tied to income? And a woman who dropped an apple core out of her car window being fined a huge amount?

    Other approaches - many towns and villages organise tidying up and litter picking days. This is to be encouraged.
    It’s also one of those simple but do-able things that as @RochdalePioneers has said: would make so much difference

    And it is totally doable. Kazakhstan is immaculately clean. Why? Because they’ve made it a national obsession. There are signs everywhere. If you go to a national park they give you a litter bag and a stern warning to leave nothing behind

    And if you break the rules the police come and get you and they slap a harsh fine on you. No quibbling. And if you fly tip you basically go to jail

    We need to treat littering (and graffiti and fly tipping and the rest) the way we treated drunk driving. Make it simultaneously reviled as a grave sin and come down very hard on whoever does it

    We just lack the will. If we did it our towns and cities would be spotless in a year and a virtuous pride would return. Leading to more social benefits
    It's the broken window theory.
    Neglect begets neglect
    When the built environment is visibly crumbling, weeds everywhere, roads barely worthy of the name, overflowing litter bins, boarded up shops and what shops that are left are basically trash, why should anyone care about keeping it tidy?
    Yes exactly. And it’s bloody depressing. No wonder Britain is sunk in gloom

    But the point is: unlike our national debt or the boat people - this can be quite easily fixed
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,333
    Sweeney74 said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was a kid I was quite into model making (mainly railways) and constructing buildings from cardboard. Memory plays tricks I'm sure but I seem to recall having to struggle to get cardboard back in the day. Now we seem to drown in cardboard (we often fill two full size recycling bins over a two week cycle). Same for clear plastic (useful for windows).

    Point is the way we get food from the shops has changed. Its massively well/over packaged. Add in the fast food, and yes, a lesser regard for community behaviour and we are where we are.

    Do I falsely remember a trial of littering penalties tied to income? And a woman who dropped an apple core out of her car window being fined a huge amount?

    Other approaches - many towns and villages organise tidying up and litter picking days. This is to be encouraged.
    It’s also one of those simple but do-able things that as @RochdalePioneers has said: would make so much difference

    And it is totally doable. Kazakhstan is immaculately clean. Why? Because they’ve made it a national obsession. There are signs everywhere. If you go to a national park they give you a litter bag and a stern warning to leave nothing behind

    And if you break the rules the police come and get you and they slap a harsh fine on you. No quibbling. And if you fly tip you basically go to jail

    We need to treat littering (and graffiti and fly tipping and the rest) the way we treated drunk driving. Make it simultaneously reviled as a grave sin and come down very hard on whoever does it

    We just lack the will. If we did it our towns and cities would be spotless in a year and a virtuous pride would return. Leading to more social benefits
    It's the broken window theory.
    Neglect begets neglect
    When the built environment is visibly crumbling, weeds everywhere, roads barely worthy of the name, overflowing litter bins, boarded up shops and what shops that are left are basically trash, why should anyone care about keeping it tidy?
    I am going to keep banging this drum in every forum I can. Pull up the weeds, fill the cracks, fix the roads, repaint the railings. At a basic level you have to make everything look tidy and maintained. Then you move to the next phase of repossessing the empty shops and turning them over to the community interest, and repossessing derelict and semi-derelict houses for refit and reuse as places people want to live.

    We were talking the other day about Greater Manchester towns, and noted that some are doing better than others. Rochdale has decayed for decades with so much of the centre owned by far away gits happy to leave units shuttered and decaying as they can appreciate as assets whilst spending no money at all. No, no. CPO their asses, reopen them to locals. Look at what has been achieved in Stockton-on-Tees.
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629

    Any clue on where Al Carns stands in the political spectrum?

    Astride brandishing a SA80A3?
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629

    Sweeney74 said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was a kid I was quite into model making (mainly railways) and constructing buildings from cardboard. Memory plays tricks I'm sure but I seem to recall having to struggle to get cardboard back in the day. Now we seem to drown in cardboard (we often fill two full size recycling bins over a two week cycle). Same for clear plastic (useful for windows).

    Point is the way we get food from the shops has changed. Its massively well/over packaged. Add in the fast food, and yes, a lesser regard for community behaviour and we are where we are.

    Do I falsely remember a trial of littering penalties tied to income? And a woman who dropped an apple core out of her car window being fined a huge amount?

    Other approaches - many towns and villages organise tidying up and litter picking days. This is to be encouraged.
    It’s also one of those simple but do-able things that as @RochdalePioneers has said: would make so much difference

    And it is totally doable. Kazakhstan is immaculately clean. Why? Because they’ve made it a national obsession. There are signs everywhere. If you go to a national park they give you a litter bag and a stern warning to leave nothing behind

    And if you break the rules the police come and get you and they slap a harsh fine on you. No quibbling. And if you fly tip you basically go to jail

    We need to treat littering (and graffiti and fly tipping and the rest) the way we treated drunk driving. Make it simultaneously reviled as a grave sin and come down very hard on whoever does it

    We just lack the will. If we did it our towns and cities would be spotless in a year and a virtuous pride would return. Leading to more social benefits
    It's the broken window theory.
    Neglect begets neglect
    When the built environment is visibly crumbling, weeds everywhere, roads barely worthy of the name, overflowing litter bins, boarded up shops and what shops that are left are basically trash, why should anyone care about keeping it tidy?
    I am going to keep banging this drum in every forum I can. Pull up the weeds, fill the cracks, fix the roads, repaint the railings. At a basic level you have to make everything look tidy and maintained. Then you move to the next phase of repossessing the empty shops and turning them over to the community interest, and repossessing derelict and semi-derelict houses for refit and reuse as places people want to live.

    We were talking the other day about Greater Manchester towns, and noted that some are doing better than others. Rochdale has decayed for decades with so much of the centre owned by far away gits happy to leave units shuttered and decaying as they can appreciate as assets whilst spending no money at all. No, no. CPO their asses, reopen them to locals. Look at what has been achieved in Stockton-on-Tees.
    100% this
    When the civic authority takes some actual pride in the urban environment, then real, lasting change can be made.
    Yes, pick the weed, fix the roads, do something with empty property.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,740
    Dura_Ace said:

    This emergent trend of getting all damp in the gusset over any politician with a military background is ludicrous.

    Of course Farage is a genuine bone fide military man. (Combined Cadet Force at Dulwich College).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,832

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was growing up in Newcastle in the 1980s it was filthy, dog shit and broken glass everywhere and lots of (frequently far right) graffiti. So there is nothing new about this. I do think we need a proper keep Britain tidy campaign though, people need a reminder on how to behave. In general we spend too much time blaming the government for everything and too little time addressing our own behaviour. In Japan the norm is to take your rubbish home with you and there are few public bins but also no litter. Why can't we adopt similar habits?
    Japanese football fans cleaning up after the match:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/japan-football-fans-cleaning-world-cup-stadiums-b2966274.html

    But it is news because other countries do not.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,673
    Dura_Ace said:

    KnightOut said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful

    Apart from the bit about cars being crappier, yes.
    Cars 30 years ago were much simpler but modern cars are more reliable, efficient, safer and less polluting. So they aren't really crappier unless except in some subjective aesthetic and therefore meaningless characterisation.
    Cars of 15 years ago were probably the best. Before every engine was turbocharged and every button was replaced with a screen.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,320
    So the economy is looking better than expected , the NHS improving and next week is likely to see another big drop in net migration .

    Not so bad after all and really calls into question why on earth we’’re having all this drama ?
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,947

    viewcode said:

    I know nobody wants to say this and it’s not the whole problem. But Wes is absolutely right that at least some of the failure of Labour is down to not communicating at all when they’ve actually done good things...

    No it isn't. The laws that they pass are only part of Government. The actions of the Cabinet also count, and (as I have been listing) they are authoritarian and bad.

    Labour isn't losing because it's bad at communicating.

    It's losing because it's authoritarian, its Cabinet is implementing whatever jolly pops into their heads, it made promises it had no intention nor capability of keeping, it says whatever gibberish in interviews will get them thru the interview regardless of factual status, its policies are insane (destruction of the Royal Navy???) and its leader has no knowledge of right and wrong and has a long history of lying.

    AND it's bad at communicating.
    Communication is a massive part of government and Labour are the worst government for this in a long time.
    But their biggest problem is that they nothing to communicate except things the country dislikes.

    This is why replacing Starmer will be futile - all the contenders either have no better plans, or in several cases one which are substantially worse.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,909
    Sweeney74 said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was a kid I was quite into model making (mainly railways) and constructing buildings from cardboard. Memory plays tricks I'm sure but I seem to recall having to struggle to get cardboard back in the day. Now we seem to drown in cardboard (we often fill two full size recycling bins over a two week cycle). Same for clear plastic (useful for windows).

    Point is the way we get food from the shops has changed. Its massively well/over packaged. Add in the fast food, and yes, a lesser regard for community behaviour and we are where we are.

    Do I falsely remember a trial of littering penalties tied to income? And a woman who dropped an apple core out of her car window being fined a huge amount?

    Other approaches - many towns and villages organise tidying up and litter picking days. This is to be encouraged.
    It’s also one of those simple but do-able things that as @RochdalePioneers has said: would make so much difference

    And it is totally doable. Kazakhstan is immaculately clean. Why? Because they’ve made it a national obsession. There are signs everywhere. If you go to a national park they give you a litter bag and a stern warning to leave nothing behind

    And if you break the rules the police come and get you and they slap a harsh fine on you. No quibbling. And if you fly tip you basically go to jail

    We need to treat littering (and graffiti and fly tipping and the rest) the way we treated drunk driving. Make it simultaneously reviled as a grave sin and come down very hard on whoever does it

    We just lack the will. If we did it our towns and cities would be spotless in a year and a virtuous pride would return. Leading to more social benefits
    It's the broken window theory.
    Neglect begets neglect
    When the built environment is visibly crumbling, weeds everywhere, roads barely worthy of the name, overflowing litter bins, boarded up shops and what shops that are left are basically trash, why should anyone care about keeping it tidy?
    I am going to keep banging this drum in every forum I can. Pull up the weeds, fill the cracks, fix the roads, repaint the railings. At a basic level you have to make everything look tidy and maintained. Then you move to the next phase of repossessing the empty shops and turning them over to the community interest, and repossessing derelict and semi-derelict houses for refit and reuse as places people want to live.

    We were talking the other day about Greater Manchester towns, and noted that some are doing better than others. Rochdale has decayed for decades with so much of the centre owned by far away gits happy to leave units shuttered and decaying as they can appreciate as assets whilst spending no money at all. No, no. CPO their asses, reopen them to locals. Look at what has been achieved in Stockton-on-Tees.
    100% this
    When the civic authority takes some actual pride in the urban environment, then real, lasting change can be made.
    Yes, pick the weed, fix the roads, do something with empty property.
    Councils don’t have the money - every penny ends up in socialcare so weeds, roads are cut to the absolute minimum
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629
    eek said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was a kid I was quite into model making (mainly railways) and constructing buildings from cardboard. Memory plays tricks I'm sure but I seem to recall having to struggle to get cardboard back in the day. Now we seem to drown in cardboard (we often fill two full size recycling bins over a two week cycle). Same for clear plastic (useful for windows).

    Point is the way we get food from the shops has changed. Its massively well/over packaged. Add in the fast food, and yes, a lesser regard for community behaviour and we are where we are.

    Do I falsely remember a trial of littering penalties tied to income? And a woman who dropped an apple core out of her car window being fined a huge amount?

    Other approaches - many towns and villages organise tidying up and litter picking days. This is to be encouraged.
    It’s also one of those simple but do-able things that as @RochdalePioneers has said: would make so much difference

    And it is totally doable. Kazakhstan is immaculately clean. Why? Because they’ve made it a national obsession. There are signs everywhere. If you go to a national park they give you a litter bag and a stern warning to leave nothing behind

    And if you break the rules the police come and get you and they slap a harsh fine on you. No quibbling. And if you fly tip you basically go to jail

    We need to treat littering (and graffiti and fly tipping and the rest) the way we treated drunk driving. Make it simultaneously reviled as a grave sin and come down very hard on whoever does it

    We just lack the will. If we did it our towns and cities would be spotless in a year and a virtuous pride would return. Leading to more social benefits
    It's the broken window theory.
    Neglect begets neglect
    When the built environment is visibly crumbling, weeds everywhere, roads barely worthy of the name, overflowing litter bins, boarded up shops and what shops that are left are basically trash, why should anyone care about keeping it tidy?
    I am going to keep banging this drum in every forum I can. Pull up the weeds, fill the cracks, fix the roads, repaint the railings. At a basic level you have to make everything look tidy and maintained. Then you move to the next phase of repossessing the empty shops and turning them over to the community interest, and repossessing derelict and semi-derelict houses for refit and reuse as places people want to live.

    We were talking the other day about Greater Manchester towns, and noted that some are doing better than others. Rochdale has decayed for decades with so much of the centre owned by far away gits happy to leave units shuttered and decaying as they can appreciate as assets whilst spending no money at all. No, no. CPO their asses, reopen them to locals. Look at what has been achieved in Stockton-on-Tees.
    100% this
    When the civic authority takes some actual pride in the urban environment, then real, lasting change can be made.
    Yes, pick the weed, fix the roads, do something with empty property.
    Councils don’t have the money - every penny ends up in socialcare so weeds, roads are cut to the absolute minimum
    The derelict environment is a primary driver of social disorder, crime and deprivation.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,832
    Sweeney74 said:

    eek said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was a kid I was quite into model making (mainly railways) and constructing buildings from cardboard. Memory plays tricks I'm sure but I seem to recall having to struggle to get cardboard back in the day. Now we seem to drown in cardboard (we often fill two full size recycling bins over a two week cycle). Same for clear plastic (useful for windows).

    Point is the way we get food from the shops has changed. Its massively well/over packaged. Add in the fast food, and yes, a lesser regard for community behaviour and we are where we are.

    Do I falsely remember a trial of littering penalties tied to income? And a woman who dropped an apple core out of her car window being fined a huge amount?

    Other approaches - many towns and villages organise tidying up and litter picking days. This is to be encouraged.
    It’s also one of those simple but do-able things that as @RochdalePioneers has said: would make so much difference

    And it is totally doable. Kazakhstan is immaculately clean. Why? Because they’ve made it a national obsession. There are signs everywhere. If you go to a national park they give you a litter bag and a stern warning to leave nothing behind

    And if you break the rules the police come and get you and they slap a harsh fine on you. No quibbling. And if you fly tip you basically go to jail

    We need to treat littering (and graffiti and fly tipping and the rest) the way we treated drunk driving. Make it simultaneously reviled as a grave sin and come down very hard on whoever does it

    We just lack the will. If we did it our towns and cities would be spotless in a year and a virtuous pride would return. Leading to more social benefits
    It's the broken window theory.
    Neglect begets neglect
    When the built environment is visibly crumbling, weeds everywhere, roads barely worthy of the name, overflowing litter bins, boarded up shops and what shops that are left are basically trash, why should anyone care about keeping it tidy?
    I am going to keep banging this drum in every forum I can. Pull up the weeds, fill the cracks, fix the roads, repaint the railings. At a basic level you have to make everything look tidy and maintained. Then you move to the next phase of repossessing the empty shops and turning them over to the community interest, and repossessing derelict and semi-derelict houses for refit and reuse as places people want to live.

    We were talking the other day about Greater Manchester towns, and noted that some are doing better than others. Rochdale has decayed for decades with so much of the centre owned by far away gits happy to leave units shuttered and decaying as they can appreciate as assets whilst spending no money at all. No, no. CPO their asses, reopen them to locals. Look at what has been achieved in Stockton-on-Tees.
    100% this
    When the civic authority takes some actual pride in the urban environment, then real, lasting change can be made.
    Yes, pick the weed, fix the roads, do something with empty property.
    Councils don’t have the money - every penny ends up in socialcare so weeds, roads are cut to the absolute minimum
    The derelict environment is a primary driver of social disorder, crime and deprivation.
    Yes, and vice versa.
  • theProle said:

    viewcode said:

    I know nobody wants to say this and it’s not the whole problem. But Wes is absolutely right that at least some of the failure of Labour is down to not communicating at all when they’ve actually done good things...

    No it isn't. The laws that they pass are only part of Government. The actions of the Cabinet also count, and (as I have been listing) they are authoritarian and bad.

    Labour isn't losing because it's bad at communicating.

    It's losing because it's authoritarian, its Cabinet is implementing whatever jolly pops into their heads, it made promises it had no intention nor capability of keeping, it says whatever gibberish in interviews will get them thru the interview regardless of factual status, its policies are insane (destruction of the Royal Navy???) and its leader has no knowledge of right and wrong and has a long history of lying.

    AND it's bad at communicating.
    Communication is a massive part of government and Labour are the worst government for this in a long time.
    But their biggest problem is that they nothing to communicate except things the country dislikes.

    This is why replacing Starmer will be futile - all the contenders either have no better plans, or in several cases one which are substantially worse.
    They could communicate their progress on immigration vs the Tories. But they don’t because they are utterly useless
  • Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    It isn't new either, probably worsened by increased takeaway packaging and the removal of public bins.

    There was loads of litter and graffiti in South London when I lived there in the Eighties. Thats why we had endless "keep Britain tidy" campaigns, and the Wombles.

    This 20 year old article shows there is nothing new under the sun.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/sep/24/comment.comment?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Our big cities have often been grubby - yes. Tho perhaps they are worse now. It’s arguable

    What is inarguable is that the scruffiness has extended to our smaller cities and towns. The horrible fly tipping. And the state of our roadsides is often hideous. Mile after mile of
    discarded trash. Why? It’s new and it’s nasty
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was growing up in Newcastle in the 1980s it was filthy, dog shit and broken glass everywhere and lots of (frequently far right) graffiti. So there is nothing new about this. I do think we need a proper keep Britain tidy campaign though, people need a reminder on how to behave. In general we spend too much time blaming the government for everything and too little time addressing our own behaviour. In Japan the norm is to take your rubbish home with you and there are few public bins but also no litter. Why can't we adopt similar habits?
    Japanese football fans cleaning up after the match:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/japan-football-fans-cleaning-world-cup-stadiums-b2966274.html

    But it is news because other countries do not.
    This begins at school.
    They are taught to clean their own classrooms at kindergarten.
    Mind. Their whole education system focuses on good manners and social skills in the early years rather than an academic curriculum.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,452
    eek said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful
    When I was a kid I was quite into model making (mainly railways) and constructing buildings from cardboard. Memory plays tricks I'm sure but I seem to recall having to struggle to get cardboard back in the day. Now we seem to drown in cardboard (we often fill two full size recycling bins over a two week cycle). Same for clear plastic (useful for windows).

    Point is the way we get food from the shops has changed. Its massively well/over packaged. Add in the fast food, and yes, a lesser regard for community behaviour and we are where we are.

    Do I falsely remember a trial of littering penalties tied to income? And a woman who dropped an apple core out of her car window being fined a huge amount?

    Other approaches - many towns and villages organise tidying up and litter picking days. This is to be encouraged.
    It’s also one of those simple but do-able things that as @RochdalePioneers has said: would make so much difference

    And it is totally doable. Kazakhstan is immaculately clean. Why? Because they’ve made it a national obsession. There are signs everywhere. If you go to a national park they give you a litter bag and a stern warning to leave nothing behind

    And if you break the rules the police come and get you and they slap a harsh fine on you. No quibbling. And if you fly tip you basically go to jail

    We need to treat littering (and graffiti and fly tipping and the rest) the way we treated drunk driving. Make it simultaneously reviled as a grave sin and come down very hard on whoever does it

    We just lack the will. If we did it our towns and cities would be spotless in a year and a virtuous pride would return. Leading to more social benefits
    It's the broken window theory.
    Neglect begets neglect
    When the built environment is visibly crumbling, weeds everywhere, roads barely worthy of the name, overflowing litter bins, boarded up shops and what shops that are left are basically trash, why should anyone care about keeping it tidy?
    I am going to keep banging this drum in every forum I can. Pull up the weeds, fill the cracks, fix the roads, repaint the railings. At a basic level you have to make everything look tidy and maintained. Then you move to the next phase of repossessing the empty shops and turning them over to the community interest, and repossessing derelict and semi-derelict houses for refit and reuse as places people want to live.

    We were talking the other day about Greater Manchester towns, and noted that some are doing better than others. Rochdale has decayed for decades with so much of the centre owned by far away gits happy to leave units shuttered and decaying as they can appreciate as assets whilst spending no money at all. No, no. CPO their asses, reopen them to locals. Look at what has been achieved in Stockton-on-Tees.
    100% this
    When the civic authority takes some actual pride in the urban environment, then real, lasting change can be made.
    Yes, pick the weed, fix the roads, do something with empty property.
    Councils don’t have the money - every penny ends up in socialcare so weeds, roads are cut to the absolute minimum
    Indeed, I don't blame the councils, I blame the government for cutting their funding and the British people for bring a bunch of slovenly and antisocial ne'erdowells.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 2,130
    nico67 said:

    Streeting really doesn’t have a choice now . If he doesn’t go for it then his supportive MPs have gone above the parapet for nothing . At least if he goes and loses he might get a job in the cabinet of a new leader .

    As already remarked. Either he goes today, or he's holed below the waterline and will have to wait until another opportunity arises (which might never come for him).

    If he's the numbers, he goes today. If he doesn't, well, he's Donald Ducked.

    (But having said that, anyone else wanting to challenge also needs to go today, tomorrow at the latest - Rayner?)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,842
    Neidle not impressed (a thread):

    https://x.com/DanNeidle/status/2054855198804226413
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,320
    edited May 14
    The BBC are reporting they’ve seen an email from the HMRC to Rayners lawyers confirming they’ve closed the case and she was not issued with a penalty.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,352

    Jack Elsom
    @JackElsom
    ·
    14m
    There are people in Downing Street who are adamant Streeting doesn't have the numbers. His camp are adamant that he does.

    Regardless, whether Starmer can ride this out is highly doubtful in the minds of some Labour MPs.

    https://x.com/JackElsom
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    KnightOut said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    This is wrong. It is not a British habit. I remember my hometown being scrupulously clean as a kid

    And almost no graffiti. And phone boxes were phone boxes not vertical piles of filth and degradation

    Nor am I imagining it. Look at photos of cities 30, 40 or 70 years ago. There is much less litter. The shop fronts are prettier and better kept. The cars are of course crappier

    A huge combo of things has led to this from the advent of fast food to a general slovenliness (see the way we dress) to more transient migrant populations who - as is human nature - care less about the environment as it is not theirs and they are passing through

    We are probably all guilty in different ways. But countries like Switzerland and Japan show that it does not have to be like this. Even urban America is often much cleaner than Britain

    It’s shameful

    Apart from the bit about cars being crappier, yes.
    Cars 30 years ago were much simpler but modern cars are more reliable, efficient, safer and less polluting. So they aren't really crappier unless except in some subjective aesthetic and therefore meaningless characterisation.
    Cars of 15 years ago were probably the best. Before every engine was turbocharged and every button was replaced with a screen.
    The computerisation of car engines has been a long process, but my father-in-law was much happier tinkering with engines from the early 2000s and before than afterwards. He had a bit of bother with the computer in the Mercedes engine that he put into a Jeep Chrysler (I think). One time he ended up driving it all the way back from Wexford in limp mode, when he was looking for a generator. Newer cars just aren't the same.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,673
    nico67 said:

    So the economy is looking better than expected , the NHS improving and next week is likely to see another big drop in net migration .

    Not so bad after all and really calls into question why on earth we’’re having all this drama ?

    Because of the ill-informed and emotionally incontinent sociopolitical climate.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,452

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    It isn't new either, probably worsened by increased takeaway packaging and the removal of public bins.

    There was loads of litter and graffiti in South London when I lived there in the Eighties. Thats why we had endless "keep Britain tidy" campaigns, and the Wombles.

    This 20 year old article shows there is nothing new under the sun.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/sep/24/comment.comment?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Our big cities have often been grubby - yes. Tho perhaps they are worse now. It’s arguable

    What is inarguable is that the scruffiness has extended to our smaller cities and towns. The horrible fly tipping. And the state of our roadsides is often hideous. Mile after mile of
    discarded trash. Why? It’s new and it’s nasty
    Slashing of local government budgets means no money to clean up and also means higher charges for disposal of rubbish which means more fly tipping. And then once it becomes the norm it snowballs. Also the whole waste disposal supply chain has been infiltrated by organised crime. Really it needs a culture change, which is feasible with sufficient will to do it.
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629


    Jack Elsom
    @JackElsom
    ·
    14m
    There are people in Downing Street who are adamant Streeting doesn't have the numbers. His camp are adamant that he does.

    Regardless, whether Starmer can ride this out is highly doubtful in the minds of some Labour MPs.

    https://x.com/JackElsom

    If he has the numbers, then
    Why Are We Waiting
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,352
    Jessica Elgot
    @jessicaelgot
    ·
    1h
    The most intense lobbying effort I have ever seen in my decade in Westminster is currently underway to brief that Wes Streeting doesn’t have the numbers.

    Maybe he doesn’t, and the stories are quite compelling, but the rearguard effort is really something…

    https://x.com/jessicaelgot/status/2054839572652019717
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,352
    Sweeney74 said:


    Jack Elsom
    @JackElsom
    ·
    14m
    There are people in Downing Street who are adamant Streeting doesn't have the numbers. His camp are adamant that he does.

    Regardless, whether Starmer can ride this out is highly doubtful in the minds of some Labour MPs.

    https://x.com/JackElsom

    If he has the numbers, then
    Why Are We Waiting
    Dentist?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,025
    So wor Rachel has us growing the fastest in the G7 in Q1? :D
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193
    nico67 said:

    So the economy is looking better than expected , the NHS improving and next week is likely to see another big drop in net migration .

    Not so bad after all and really calls into question why on earth we’’re having all this drama ?

    Expectations for the economy were very low, so economic performance is still lacklustre. NHS improvement is slow relative to the scale of the problems that have developed since 2010. If net migration is still above 100k a year then it's still higher than the voters have been told the politicians will deliver for a decade and a half.

    And there are many problems that continue to get worse - the infrastructure backlog (zilch progress on connecting the northern cities), the shortage of housing, etc.

    The steady-as-she-goes with minor incremental changes that Labour are delivering is not fundamentally different to the Sunak government, but people were led to expect much better and they want much better.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,320
    kinabalu said:

    nico67 said:

    So the economy is looking better than expected , the NHS improving and next week is likely to see another big drop in net migration .

    Not so bad after all and really calls into question why on earth we’’re having all this drama ?

    Because of the ill-informed and emotionally incontinent sociopolitical climate.
    I also think this no plan mantra is now just being regurgitated by much of the public who are acting like drones .

    Labour have passed quite a lot of legislation, workers rights , renters rights etc . What’s needed is a better means of communicating this .

    And in terms of net migration that’s also falling rapidly . They really should hold news conferences and force the media to report it .

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,842

    So wor Rachel has us growing the fastest in the G7 in Q1? :D

    Despite Brexit.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,834
    Streeting should stay away from private jets.

    https://x.com/JAHeale/status/2054856693066965110

    Labour source suggests Streeting will look like the “Prigozhin of the PLP” if he doesn’t go ahead
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,352
    tlg86 said:

    So wor Rachel has us growing the fastest in the G7 in Q1? :D

    Despite Brexit.
    And then Trump and Hegseth decided they were bored and wanted to play video games...
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,789
    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth is a British habit (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    In France, the dog shit is just left where it fell. We're far less filthy than that!
    I was once sitting outside a cafe in Paris with friends, and a man dropped his trousers, and took a dump in the gutter in front of us.
    You weren't speaking English were you?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,320
    Maybe some of Streetings backers have got cold feet .
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,224

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    It isn't new either, probably worsened by increased takeaway packaging and the removal of public bins.

    There was loads of litter and graffiti in South London when I lived there in the Eighties. Thats why we had endless "keep Britain tidy" campaigns, and the Wombles.

    This 20 year old article shows there is nothing new under the sun.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/sep/24/comment.comment?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Our big cities have often been grubby - yes. Tho perhaps they are worse now. It’s arguable

    What is inarguable is that the scruffiness has extended to our smaller cities and towns. The horrible fly tipping. And the state of our roadsides is often hideous. Mile after mile of
    discarded trash. Why? It’s new and it’s nasty
    Slashing of local government budgets means no money to clean up and also means higher charges for disposal of rubbish which means more fly tipping. And then once it becomes the norm it snowballs. Also the whole waste disposal supply chain has been infiltrated by organised crime. Really it needs a culture change, which is feasible with sufficient will to do it.
    A house two doors down from me is having an extension. They're burying all the waste in a big hole in the garden.

    Charging for waste disposal may be counterproductive, whether it's done for monetary or envirionmental reasons.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,242
    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    GDP up 0.6% in Q1.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/gdpfirstquarterlyestimateuk/januarytomarch2026#:~:text=UK real gross domestic product,(Oct to Dec) 2025.

    Growth has mildly outperformed expectations more often than not in recent years recently, under both governments. Not stellar, but better than you’d think from the headlines. The British mentality remains relentlessly negative. Which in turn holds back investment and consumer spending.

    Last years early year bump when people who know looked into the numbers was driven big load of government spending and hence why it then went away pretty quickly. I will be interested to know what is driving this time when people have dug into the numbers*.

    * not suggesting anything dodgy, genuinely interested what it is that is driving it.
    Trade deficit up to 7.0 billion too, widened by £4.5 billion

    https://x.com/ons/status/2054805518078673102?s=61
    Rising trade deficit alongside economic growth would suggest increased private spending. See USA for an example. So this appears to be private sector rather than government led (govt spending growth doesn’t generally expand the trade deficit).

    There is so much stored up cash available to be splurged, that just a year or two of no crisis should give consumers the rationale they need.
    As an indicator of this, son says his booking (holiday industry) are 30-45% up for 2027/2028. Some people have the cash and the confidence. Also big swing from US holidays to Canada.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,511
    He might have the numbers, but apparently lacks the stones...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,320
    If you believe Huff post then what an extraordinary 48 hrs .
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,413
    edited May 14

    Sweeney74 said:

    Al Carns for PM

    Pretty bold move given he has been in parliament about 5 minutes.
    Who dares wins.

    Yeah, I know he was a marine but same starry eyed nitwittery over a sniff of a (wo)man in uniform applied.
    If Labour were looking for a LoTo, I could perhaps see it. The David Cameron move. But Starmer, Mr Technocrat, can't get anything moving, what is the chance of a bloke who has been in parliament 5 minutes and never held any big govenrment roles being able to unlock that (also I highly doubt when he got his seat he thought I will be leader in 2 years, so again, what deep thinking about policy will have been done).

    He also has the Son of a Toolmaker tick, every interview, "when I was in the military, we did x". Also, he can really quite prickerly when pushed by interviewers, you get the feeling he is very close to tell to shut the fuck up, I'm in charge. Being leader that is turned up to 11.
    OTOH I’ve considered it unlikely that a Scot would ever lead a main(sic) UK party again but the steely jawed action man thing might counter that. I suppose a politician that doesn’t look a total dick in a fall jacket would be a novelty. Paul Mason might have a fatal orgasm.

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/will-labour-learn-to-love-defence/
    You Scots are so parochial.

    Right now the Tories are led by a woman with the surname Badenoch, you cannot get more Scottish than that.
    I don't THINK she herself is Scots though? Is she?
    No, she's English. A Londoner.
    But Shirley, if a non-UK citizen can be a Proper Scot, even The English must be allowed to identify as Scottish?

    Or is that a bridge too far, for even the most progressive?
    There are plenty of English heritage people in Scotland who identify as Scots and indeed some are enthusiastic Scottish nationalists. I was born in Scotland to English parents and also spent my teen years there, there was a certain amount of banter to endure but the idea of the Scots as a nation of rabid Anglophobes is a myth in my experience. I view myself as Scottish or at least Scot-ish. Kemi Badenoch would be a welcome addition to the Scottish diaspora. The way she will happily cross the street to start a fight with anyone certainly has a bit of a Scottish flavour.
    My sister and her husband, both Essex, moved to Scotland from Essex immediately after marriage. Husband did a teacher-training course, then they moved to a small community on the edge of the Highlands where he taught for several years.They had three daughters, who were always, apparently, known to the school as 'the English girls'.
    Two of them went to uni in Scotland but now live in England, with non-Scots partners but both sound Scots to my Essex ears!
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,652

    tlg86 said:

    So wor Rachel has us growing the fastest in the G7 in Q1? :D

    Despite Brexit.
    And then Trump and Hegseth decided they were bored and wanted to play video games...
    Monthly and quarterly growth figures with any accuracy is miles beyond ONS current capability - massive bit of fortune for Rachel that they've spat out one of their occasional over-reads now given the inevitable correction in the next month's figures can be blamed on Geopolitics. Obviously the geopolitics matters, but 0.6% is an obvious outlyer the likes of which have been followed by a negative subsequent period everytime they pop up in recent years
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,320
    Comedy gold from the Streeting camp . From the BBC.

    “Supporters of Wes Streeting say he has the numbers but such is the volatility around the prime minister, and what they claim he might do next, they are waiting for now.”
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629
    WSACO
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,224
    Even if Rayner hasn't fully been cleared, HMRC couldn't issue a statement to say she hadn't been because of data protection rules, right? So she can say anything...
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629
    nico67 said:

    Comedy gold from the Streeting camp . From the BBC.

    “Supporters of Wes Streeting say he has the numbers but such is the volatility around the prime minister, and what they claim he might do next, they are waiting for now.”

    laughable
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 81,139
    nico67 said:

    So the economy is looking better than expected , the NHS improving and next week is likely to see another big drop in net migration .

    Not so bad after all and really calls into question why on earth we’’re having all this drama ?

    You'll need to ask Wes and around a hundred Labour MPs that question !
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    nico67 said:

    Comedy gold from the Streeting camp . From the BBC.

    “Supporters of Wes Streeting say he has the numbers but such is the volatility around the prime minister, and what they claim he might do next, they are waiting for now.”

    Shakes head....
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,025
    carnforth said:

    Even if Rayner hasn't fully been cleared, HMRC couldn't issue a statement to say she hadn't been because of data protection rules, right? So she can say anything...

    The BBC has seen the communications apparently
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,511
    @duncanweldon.bsky.social‬

    I can remember a conversation with a mate who worked in comms in early 2010. One of the papers (the Guardian?) had just launched a politics live blog.
    His reaction, and mine, was basically “what they are going to write updates about politics all day and every day? That’s mad”.
    A more innocent time.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    A senior figure just said to me that ‘MPs are all losing their minds’ and what is happening is a ‘total mess.’

    Their language was actually considerably punchier than that, but you get the gist.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 9,132
    edited May 14
    Streeting is frit. Starmer is safe for now.

    We’re going to be on Burnham watch for the next 12 months
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,025
    Pulpstar said:

    nico67 said:

    So the economy is looking better than expected , the NHS improving and next week is likely to see another big drop in net migration .

    Not so bad after all and really calls into question why on earth we’’re having all this drama ?

    You'll need to ask Wes and around a hundred Labour MPs that question !
    The drama is because the leadership is unable to communicate to the electorate and, you know, lead
  • eekeek Posts: 33,909
    Scott_xP said:

    He might have the numbers, but apparently lacks the stones...

    Stones? Balls but I can’t imagine Wes was one for sports
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,320
    carnforth said:

    Even if Rayner hasn't fully been cleared, HMRC couldn't issue a statement to say she hadn't been because of data protection rules, right? So she can say anything...

    I think you’re flogging a dead horse .

    It’s been confirmed by the BBC who have seen the email correspondence between the HMRC and her lawyers confirming she is telling the truth. And really it would be idiotic of her to make this up anyway .
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,413

    nico67 said:

    Comedy gold from the Streeting camp . From the BBC.

    “Supporters of Wes Streeting say he has the numbers but such is the volatility around the prime minister, and what they claim he might do next, they are waiting for now.”

    Shakes head....
    WSWNBPM
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,511
    @euanmccolm

    You so rarely see the Warhol quote in full: “In the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes before being deposed as Prime Minister.”
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,603

    I assume as PB has turned its attention to coffee and litter that All is Quiet on the Western Front?
    (TSE - you have my permission to nick that).

    Will the challenge from Streeting be fleeting ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949

    Streeting is frit. Starmer is safe for now.

    Somebody needs to photoshop him with a bendy banana.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,892
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Come on Wes, make your mind up, I have work to do.

    It seemed a dead cert he was challenging - but that was Westerday.
    Westerday, all my troubles seemed so far away,
    Now they seem to be here to stay,
    Oh how I long for Westerday.
    Not many left who speak Tory. Reform grunt out a guttural, warped version of it I suppose.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 14
    carnforth said:

    Even if Rayner hasn't fully been cleared, HMRC couldn't issue a statement to say she hadn't been because of data protection rules, right? So she can say anything...

    I am still interested to know who leaked her tax situation in the first place. There must have been a very very very small number of people who would know all the jigsaw pieces in order to direct the media to the scandal.
  • Weak weak weak
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,884
    Chris Mason on the BBC

    "Supporters of Wes Streeting say he has the numbers but such is the volatility around the prime minister, and what they claim he might do next, they are waiting for now.

    Others are spitting about Andy Burnham, saying the mayor of Greater Manchester has made a huge fuss about his ambitions but still hasn’t found a seat.

    A senior figure just said to me that ‘MPs are all losing their minds’ and what is happening is a ‘total mess.’

    Their language was actually considerably punchier than that, but you get the gist."

    This makes no sense whatsoever. I thought that the whole point of this was that Streeting was going to trigger a contest when Burnham was hors de combat?
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 629
    So when is SKS going to clear out all the treacherous schemers from cabinet?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 14
    Sweeney74 said:

    So when is SKS going to clear out all the treacherous schemers from cabinet?

    Its a Mexican stand off, he can risk sacking them and they can't get the numbers to get rid of him (at the moment).
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,320
    One would think the Streeting camp are making up the numbers to try and get more MPs to come out and back him.

    If they had the required they would have gone for it already . What other possible reason for not doing so.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,603

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Excellent GDP figures out. Were it not for Mandelson, suspect Starmer would be able to talk about turning the economy around and see off leadership disquiet.

    No, no, that can't be right. We all know the country's economy is going down the pan - I read it here on PB every day so it must be true.
    The economy might not be, but so much else is:

    Shoplifters acting with impunity.

    Dodgy shops either acting as fronts for money laundering or selling dodgy fags and vapes.

    Chavs buzzing about on illegal e-bikes.

    Filth everywhere, plus illegal waste dumps blighting the countryside.

    I could go on and on.

    So much is shite.
    The anti-fly tipping signs put up by the council are already wearing off. Maybe fly-tippers can't read.
    Filth and hypocrisy about it are established British habits (tbf I have not surveyed Wales or Scotland extensively). Consider dogshit bags hung on trees, or litter in every layby, or along every road. Yet as soon as we have enforcers, the Great British Whining Noise can be heard keening on the breeze.

    The laws are in place for some of those - illegal e-bikes have been confiscatible (sp) for two decades (since 2005) in exactly the same way as any other uninsured motor vehicle. Or S59 can be used. Much of this is about political will and willingness to enforce.

    This is why I do not think taxes will or should be going down - if we want a decent society it needs more resources, not less, especially for local government.

    On another serious note, this type of thing makes me wonder whether we have capability for the type of grassroots civil-society activism against our Right Wing nihilists that will be a significant factor in overturning MAGA in the USA.
    It isn't new either, probably worsened by increased takeaway packaging and the removal of public bins.

    There was loads of litter and graffiti in South London when I lived there in the Eighties. Thats why we had endless "keep Britain tidy" campaigns, and the Wombles.

    This 20 year old article shows there is nothing new under the sun.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/sep/24/comment.comment?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Our big cities have often been grubby - yes. Tho perhaps they are worse now. It’s arguable

    What is inarguable is that the scruffiness has extended to our smaller cities and towns. The horrible fly tipping. And the state of our roadsides is often hideous. Mile after mile of
    discarded trash. Why? It’s new and it’s nasty
    Landfill charges, etc

    A shadow industry of dodgy waste disposal has sprung up. The financial incentives for dumping your waste on someone else are quite sizeable.
This discussion has been closed.