Who could blame anyone for looking at this front bench/cabinet and thinking Even I could do better than that?
Half the posters here could do a better job.
At work, the other day, one of the managers put on the group chat that he had made a mistake in a specification, causing the current production problem. And here was the fix.
Admitted culpability, fixed the problem.
Fired, of course. But did the right thing.
Actually no. In the real world, people who admit mistakes are valuable. To those with half a brain.
I encountered Sir Anthony Meyer, Bt, MP and his wife a couple of times, in the days before he stood as the "stalking donkey" against Mrs T.
A resilient chap. Won Eton & Slough, against the trend in 1964, from Fenner Brockway, due to an extremely professional campaign organised by the party agent there. And, later, was an MP in N Wales, and successfully fended off an attempt to deselect him in favour of Beata Brookes, an MEP, from the Thatcherite side of the party.
It turned out later that he had a rather colourful private life which didn't, apparently, faze Lady Meyer in the slightest.
I encountered Sir Anthony Meyer, Bt, MP and his wife a couple of times, in the days before he stood as the "stalking donkey" against Mrs T.
A resilient chap. Won Eton & Slough, against the trend in 1964, from Fenner Brockway, due to an extremely professional campaign organised by the party agent there. And, later, was an MP in N Wales, and successfully fended off an attempt to deselect him in favour of Beata Brookes, an MEP, from the Thatcherite side of the party.
It turned out later that he had a rather colourful private life which didn't, apparently, faze Lady Meyer in the slightest.
Those were the days.
Sir Anthony Meyer had almost male model good looks in his younger days based on his army photo, so not much surprise he had plenty of lovers. In his latter years he left the Tories and became a LD, standing for them in the 1999 European Parliament elections
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
You do realise he spent nearly two years working for the Foreign Secretary.
He probably has some good contacts.
Given how this country has been run in recent years I'm not sure that carries the weight you seem to think it does.
Alex Wickham @alexwickham · 43m NEW: Catherine West’s stalking horse effort appears to be faltering as real leadership contenders are now distancing themselves from her
Supporters of Wes Streeting say he hasn’t spoken to her for months. Others dismiss her as a Corbynista
Burnham allies strongly oppose West
Ffs Labour.
Looks like both Burnham and Starmer allies are united in not wanting a leadership contest now which could replace Starmer with Streeting or Rayner
Understand Catherine West didn’t tell her staffers in advance about her leadership bid. They are “perplexed” and now “trying to work with nothing concrete to work on”
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
You do realise he spent nearly two years working for the Foreign Secretary.
He probably has some good contacts.
You mean he was a Spad for David Lammy for 18 months.
Rage against the dying of the light from Ben Judah there. Bless.
Jonny Freedland said say thing in Guardian this morning (the EU bit not the raging at the light bit). The one game changer Starmer could pull on Monday.
But it isn't. Nor is 'a closer relationship'. The EU isn't a volume dial that you can turn down and up. 'A closer relationship' requires agreement, and if we could not walk away (which we wouldn't be able to, because Starmer would need an agreement for political reasons) we would be fucked. And the fucking would go down with the public like a cup of cold sick.
Polling for Queen Margaret University found 80% of Labour supporters want to join the customs union. But 9% of Labour supporters want 'someone other than the UK deciding our tariff policy' - which is the customs union. Support for rejoin is a bubble. It's supporters are low information people who have no idea what it entails.
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
I think it is probably true the EU in general, and many EU leaders, would like us back, because a powerful nation of 70m coming back into the fold would add a lot of money into the coffers, bolster the cause of European unity, plus demonstrate the UK had been humbled by leaving and had to crawl back. It's so in their interests that I find it rather silly to think they wouldn't - like how some fools started to claim the EU no longer cared what happens in the UK, which is just dumb.
That's not the same as the EU wanting us back in now. Why would they want such a headache when the debate in the UK on the subject is still far from assured?
It's essentially a maximum of 3 years until the next GE. And Reform are currently on course, with the Tories, to have a majority in that election - both arch Leaver parties.
There isn't enough time to hold and win a referendum and then negotiate and pass an accession treaty, still less manage a transition with all the complexities and politics around it.
And even if it was (it isn't) it'd be immediately denounced by the new administration.
Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson Shadow Housing Secretary James Cleverly Reform UK's Business Spokesperson Richard Tice Plaid Cymru leader Rhun ap Iowerth Labour MP Catherine West
That's going a bit far, but a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU would work, although the lesson from what happened after 2016 is that terms of accession would have to be negotiated and precisely defined in advance of the vote. It might even appeal to Reform voters - one clause could be to return to the pre 2019 status quo on automatically returning unsuccessful asylum seekers to the EU border they came across, which would stop the boats just as effectively as it did when it was in place.
Here's someone who might be willing to write it into the manifesto. Expelled as a shadow frontbencher by Corbyn by voting in favour of the single market.
Rage against the dying of the light from Ben Judah there. Bless.
Jonny Freedland said say thing in Guardian this morning (the EU bit not the raging at the light bit). The one game changer Starmer could pull on Monday.
But it isn't. Nor is 'a closer relationship'. The EU isn't a volume dial that you can turn down and up. 'A closer relationship' requires agreement, and if we could not walk away (which we wouldn't be able to, because Starmer would need an agreement for political reasons) we would be fucked. And the fucking would go down with the public like a cup of cold sick.
Polling for Queen Margaret University found 80% of Labour supporters want to join the customs union. But 9% of Labour supporters want 'someone other than the UK deciding our tariff policy' - which is the customs union. Support for rejoin is a bubble. It's supporters are low information people who have no idea what it entails.
The same people who have been butt hurt for 10 years about the EU referendum result and see rejoining the EU as the answer to every situation, amazingly think rejoining the EU is the answer to Starmer's lack of ability to be anything other than a crap Prime Minister.
Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson Shadow Housing Secretary James Cleverly Reform UK's Business Spokesperson Richard Tice Plaid Cymru leader Rhun ap Iowerth Labour MP Catherine West
Starmer better pull out something surprising on Monday and not some drivel about hope and change .
Realistically, what would that be?
I think he could really emphasise change or hope. Or maybe both. In equal measure. A powerhouse. AI. Mainlining hope. A future, for our future's future. And their futures after them.
:: looks down and prepares slightly phlegmatic voice it has been told sounds authentic ::
Our children’s AI mainlined hopemobile. A Labour hopemobile. Not the same old tired Tory promises of a hopemobile. This is a vision. A vision a Strong Labour Party can make reality!
Rejoining the EU - or attempting to Rejoin (we might be vetoed) - would be easily as agonising as Brexit and probably much worse. Because quitting a club is ultimately easier than joining. Especially joining a club that isn’t sure you’d be a good member
It would five-ten years of anguished and tedious negotiations during which the EU - and every member state - would try to extract as much juice from the British Orange as possible. They would make the pips squeak
And, despite what “Ben Judah” says, we would certainly have to join the euro. It’s the one way to shackle us forever
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
I think it is probably true the EU in general, and many EU leaders, would like us back, because a powerful nation of 70m coming back into the fold would add a lot of money into the coffers, bolster the cause of European unity, plus demonstrate the UK had been humbled by leaving and had to crawl back. It's so in their interests that I find it rather silly to think they wouldn't - like how some fools started to claim the EU no longer cared what happens in the UK, which is just dumb.
That's not the same as the EU wanting us back in now. Why would they want such a headache when the debate in the UK on the subject is still far from assured?
It's essentially a maximum of 3 years until the next GE. And Reform are currently on course, with the Tories, to have a majority in that election - both arch Leaver parties.
There isn't enough time to hold and win a referendum and then negotiate and pass an accession treaty, still less manage a transition with all the complexities and politics around it.
And even if it was (it isn't) it'd be immediately denounced by the new administration.
I assume the plan wouldn't be to rejoin now, just come out with a rejoin stance and make efforts to head in that direction to enthuse the Remain vote.
It might even gain them a little from where they are now, but it wouldn't make the UK suddenly not politically divided - I don't think the EU would ever want to risk a repeat, and wouldn't want us back in unless 'stay out' parties were at 15% or less.
Rejoining the EU - or attempting to Rejoin (we might be vetoed) - would be easily as agonising as Brexit and probably much worse. Because quitting a club is ultimately easier than joining. Especially joining a club that isn’t sure you’d be a good member
It would five-ten years of anguished and tedious negotiations during which the EU - and every member state - would try to extract as much juice from the British Orange as possible. They would make the pips squeak
And, despite what “Ben Judah” says, we would certainly have to join the euro. It’s the one way to shackle us forever
we would not be vetoed per se. We would be told full fat including Euro and Schengen, or no.
Labour CANNOT win by being remain only. They tried that in 2019 and it was a disaster.
It is not 2019, things change.
For a start in 2019 Labour needed high thirties to win a GE. Currently they need mid to high twenties. The public are a bit less Brexity than they were in 2019. The remain bloc who thought it important that leave was implemented will now be open to closer ties.
It is their best card to play unless they can somehow magic £100bn a year or so.
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
You do realise he spent nearly two years working for the Foreign Secretary.
He probably has some good contacts.
So does Dan Hodges, he claims. Doesn't mean his conclusions are particularly good.
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
I think it is probably true the EU in general, and many EU leaders, would like us back, because a powerful nation of 70m coming back into the fold would add a lot of money into the coffers, bolster the cause of European unity, plus demonstrate the UK had been humbled by leaving and had to crawl back. It's so in their interests that I find it rather silly to think they wouldn't - like how some fools started to claim the EU no longer cared what happens in the UK, which is just dumb.
That's not the same as the EU wanting us back in now. Why would they want such a headache when the debate in the UK on the subject is still far from assured?
It's essentially a maximum of 3 years until the next GE. And Reform are currently on course, with the Tories, to have a majority in that election - both arch Leaver parties.
There isn't enough time to hold and win a referendum and then negotiate and pass an accession treaty, still less manage a transition with all the complexities and politics around it.
And even if it was (it isn't) it'd be immediately denounced by the new administration.
Judah’s plan is not “hold a referendum now” - which actually makes sense as a Hail Mary pass - it’s “put a referendum in the next manifesto” which makes almost no sense at all
That's going a bit far, but a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU would work, although the lesson from what happened after 2016 is that terms of accession would have to be negotiated and precisely defined in advance of the vote. It might even appeal to Reform voters - one clause could be to return to the pre 2019 status quo on automatically returning unsuccessful asylum seekers to the EU border they came across, which would stop the boats just as effectively as it did when it was in place.
Here's someone who might be willing to write it into the manifesto. Expelled as a shadow frontbencher by Corbyn by voting in favour of the single market.
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
You do realise he spent nearly two years working for the Foreign Secretary.
He probably has some good contacts.
You mean he was a Spad for David Lammy for 18 months.
Labour CANNOT win by being remain only. They tried that in 2019 and it was a disaster.
It is not 2019, things change.
For a start in 2019 Labour needed high thirties to win a GE. Currently they need mid to high twenties. The public are a bit less Brexity than they were in 2019. The remain bloc who thought it important that leave was implemented will now be open to closer ties.
It is their best card to play unless they can somehow magic £100bn a year or so.
But people do not want to rejoin. I’m utterly unconvinced when the process actually starts the campaign people will want to go through this again.
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
You do realise he spent nearly two years working for the Foreign Secretary.
He probably has some good contacts.
You mean he was a Spad for David Lammy for 18 months.
Yes, a real Henry Kissinger.
As immoral as Kissinger?
Does he make as many mistakes as Kissinger? Who was entirely frank in his memoirs and told of his first mistake on page 850?
Rejoining the EU - or attempting to Rejoin (we might be vetoed) - would be easily as agonising as Brexit and probably much worse. Because quitting a club is ultimately easier than joining. Especially joining a club that isn’t sure you’d be a good member
It would five-ten years of anguished and tedious negotiations during which the EU - and every member state - would try to extract as much juice from the British Orange as possible. They would make the pips squeak
And, despite what “Ben Judah” says, we would certainly have to join the euro. It’s the one way to shackle us forever
we would not be vetoed per se. We would be told full fat including Euro and Schengen, or no.
You have absolutely no idea. You have no idea who will be in power in 27 different EU nations in 2030 or 2033. It could be the AfD in Germany. It could be some far right party in Spain which will demand the return of Gibraltar or veto. It could the revived Keith Chegwin running Bulgaria who wants revenge on the burghers of Newent so he vetoes for no reason at all. And, remember, THEY ALL HAVE A VETO
So shut up. You don’t know. No one knows. It would be a massive gamble, that is the only honest account
That sounds a lot like, "why doesn't this uppity woman leave it to us grown ups who have our carefully prepared plans to replace Starmer in the fullness of time."
The more people criticise her for no good reason the more I am inclined to think well of her.
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
I think it is probably true the EU in general, and many EU leaders, would like us back, because a powerful nation of 70m coming back into the fold would add a lot of money into the coffers, bolster the cause of European unity, plus demonstrate the UK had been humbled by leaving and had to crawl back. It's so in their interests that I find it rather silly to think they wouldn't - like how some fools started to claim the EU no longer cared what happens in the UK, which is just dumb.
That's not the same as the EU wanting us back in now. Why would they want such a headache when the debate in the UK on the subject is still far from assured?
It's essentially a maximum of 3 years until the next GE. And Reform are currently on course, with the Tories, to have a majority in that election - both arch Leaver parties.
There isn't enough time to hold and win a referendum and then negotiate and pass an accession treaty, still less manage a transition with all the complexities and politics around it.
And even if it was (it isn't) it'd be immediately denounced by the new administration.
Judah’s plan is not “hold a referendum now” - which actually makes sense as a Hail Mary pass - it’s “put a referendum in the next manifesto” which makes almost no sense at all
Rejoining the EU - or attempting to Rejoin (we might be vetoed) - would be easily as agonising as Brexit and probably much worse. Because quitting a club is ultimately easier than joining. Especially joining a club that isn’t sure you’d be a good member
It would five-ten years of anguished and tedious negotiations during which the EU - and every member state - would try to extract as much juice from the British Orange as possible. They would make the pips squeak
And, despite what “Ben Judah” says, we would certainly have to join the euro. It’s the one way to shackle us forever
we would not be vetoed per se. We would be told full fat including Euro and Schengen, or no.
You have absolutely no idea. You have no idea who will be in power in 27 different EU nations in 2030 or 2033. It could be the AfD in Germany. It could be some far right party in Spain which will demand the return of Gibraltar or veto. It could the revived Keith Chegwin running Bulgaria who wants revenge on the burghers of Newent so he vetoes for no reason at all. And, remember, THEY ALL HAVE A VETO
So shut up. You don’t know. No one knows. It would be a massive gamble, that is the only honest account
I thought his point was that we wouldn't really need to be vetoed because by insisting on full fat that would likely sink the prospects of Rejoin as a project.
Rejoining the EU - or attempting to Rejoin (we might be vetoed) - would be easily as agonising as Brexit and probably much worse. Because quitting a club is ultimately easier than joining. Especially joining a club that isn’t sure you’d be a good member
It would five-ten years of anguished and tedious negotiations during which the EU - and every member state - would try to extract as much juice from the British Orange as possible. They would make the pips squeak
And, despite what “Ben Judah” says, we would certainly have to join the euro. It’s the one way to shackle us forever
we would not be vetoed per se. We would be told full fat including Euro and Schengen, or no.
You have absolutely no idea. You have no idea who will be in power in 27 different EU nations in 2030 or 2033. It could be the AfD in Germany. It could be some far right party in Spain which will demand the return of Gibraltar or veto. It could the revived Keith Chegwin running Bulgaria who wants revenge on the burghers of Newent so he vetoes for no reason at all. And, remember, THEY ALL HAVE A VETO
So shut up. You don’t know. No one knows. It would be a massive gamble, that is the only honest account
It is dead easy to know that. The EU would be delighted to see us back. Nothing would prove their brilliance more.
Although I must admit the irony of telling me to shut up because I don't know, nobody can know what would happen while confidently predicting what would happen yourself is amusing.
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
I think it is probably true the EU in general, and many EU leaders, would like us back, because a powerful nation of 70m coming back into the fold would add a lot of money into the coffers, bolster the cause of European unity, plus demonstrate the UK had been humbled by leaving and had to crawl back. It's so in their interests that I find it rather silly to think they wouldn't - like how some fools started to claim the EU no longer cared what happens in the UK, which is just dumb.
That's not the same as the EU wanting us back in now. Why would they want such a headache when the debate in the UK on the subject is still far from assured?
It's essentially a maximum of 3 years until the next GE. And Reform are currently on course, with the Tories, to have a majority in that election - both arch Leaver parties.
There isn't enough time to hold and win a referendum and then negotiate and pass an accession treaty, still less manage a transition with all the complexities and politics around it.
And even if it was (it isn't) it'd be immediately denounced by the new administration.
Judah’s plan is not “hold a referendum now” - which actually makes sense as a Hail Mary pass - it’s “put a referendum in the next manifesto” which makes almost no sense at all
It also makes no sense electorally, certainly while we keep FPTP. Remember while Remain won 48% of the votes in 2016, only 36% of GB constituency House of Commons seats voted Remain. So all it would do is pile up Labour votes again in inner cities and university towns while swing seats in the suburbs and market and seaside and ex industrial towns and rural areas go to Farage and the Tories
That sounds a lot like, "why doesn't this uppity woman leave it to us grown ups who have our carefully prepared plans to replace Starmer in the fullness of time."
The more people criticise her for no good reason the more I am inclined to think well of her.
It's possible she is a bit of a troublemaker, a hair too independent minded, who knows? From the anonymous complaints to her saying (among other things) that people need to put up or shut up and not just make anonymous complaints, I get the impression that she is not party to the current factional infighting and those pushing for specific candidates do not appreciate someone pointing out their gameplaying.
That's going a bit far, but a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU would work, although the lesson from what happened after 2016 is that terms of accession would have to be negotiated and precisely defined in advance of the vote. It might even appeal to Reform voters - one clause could be to return to the pre 2019 status quo on automatically returning unsuccessful asylum seekers to the EU border they came across, which would stop the boats just as effectively as it did when it was in place.
Here's someone who might be willing to write it into the manifesto. Expelled as a shadow frontbencher by Corbyn by voting in favour of the single market.
Oh do stop with this nonsense. The Dublin agreement involved the transfer of tiny numbers of people, sometimes more in this direction than the other. And the boats started because we, together with the French, made it close to impossible for people to stow away in lorries.
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
I think it is probably true the EU in general, and many EU leaders, would like us back, because a powerful nation of 70m coming back into the fold would add a lot of money into the coffers, bolster the cause of European unity, plus demonstrate the UK had been humbled by leaving and had to crawl back. It's so in their interests that I find it rather silly to think they wouldn't - like how some fools started to claim the EU no longer cared what happens in the UK, which is just dumb.
That's not the same as the EU wanting us back in now. Why would they want such a headache when the debate in the UK on the subject is still far from assured?
It's essentially a maximum of 3 years until the next GE. And Reform are currently on course, with the Tories, to have a majority in that election - both arch Leaver parties.
There isn't enough time to hold and win a referendum and then negotiate and pass an accession treaty, still less manage a transition with all the complexities and politics around it.
And even if it was (it isn't) it'd be immediately denounced by the new administration.
I assume the plan wouldn't be to rejoin now, just come out with a rejoin stance and make efforts to head in that direction to enthuse the Remain vote.
It might even gain them a little from where they are now, but it wouldn't make the UK suddenly not politically divided - I don't think the EU would ever want to risk a repeat, and wouldn't want us back in unless 'stay out' parties were at 15% or less.
It would actually do the opposite, since it would repolarise voting in constituencies accordingly.
Reform and the Conservatives would have the advantage, because there are simply more Leave inclined ones than Remain ones.
Rejoining the EU - or attempting to Rejoin (we might be vetoed) - would be easily as agonising as Brexit and probably much worse. Because quitting a club is ultimately easier than joining. Especially joining a club that isn’t sure you’d be a good member
It would five-ten years of anguished and tedious negotiations during which the EU - and every member state - would try to extract as much juice from the British Orange as possible. They would make the pips squeak
And, despite what “Ben Judah” says, we would certainly have to join the euro. It’s the one way to shackle us forever
we would not be vetoed per se. We would be told full fat including Euro and Schengen, or no.
You have absolutely no idea. You have no idea who will be in power in 27 different EU nations in 2030 or 2033. It could be the AfD in Germany. It could be some far right party in Spain which will demand the return of Gibraltar or veto. It could the revived Keith Chegwin running Bulgaria who wants revenge on the burghers of Newent so he vetoes for no reason at all. And, remember, THEY ALL HAVE A VETO
So shut up. You don’t know. No one knows. It would be a massive gamble, that is the only honest account
I thought his point was that we wouldn't really need to be vetoed because by insisting on full fat that would likely sink the prospects of Rejoin as a project.
Bother, you've put it in terms even he will understand.
That sounds a lot like, "why doesn't this uppity woman leave it to us grown ups who have our carefully prepared plans to replace Starmer in the fullness of time."
The more people criticise her for no good reason the more I am inclined to think well of her.
Even a stalking horse would be better than a dead donkey.
Rejoining the EU - or attempting to Rejoin (we might be vetoed) - would be easily as agonising as Brexit and probably much worse. Because quitting a club is ultimately easier than joining. Especially joining a club that isn’t sure you’d be a good member
It would five-ten years of anguished and tedious negotiations during which the EU - and every member state - would try to extract as much juice from the British Orange as possible. They would make the pips squeak
And, despite what “Ben Judah” says, we would certainly have to join the euro. It’s the one way to shackle us forever
we would not be vetoed per se. We would be told full fat including Euro and Schengen, or no.
You have absolutely no idea. You have no idea who will be in power in 27 different EU nations in 2030 or 2033. It could be the AfD in Germany. It could be some far right party in Spain which will demand the return of Gibraltar or veto. It could the revived Keith Chegwin running Bulgaria who wants revenge on the burghers of Newent so he vetoes for no reason at all. And, remember, THEY ALL HAVE A VETO
So shut up. You don’t know. No one knows. It would be a massive gamble, that is the only honest account
I thought his point was that we wouldn't really need to be vetoed because by insisting on full fat that would likely sink the prospects of Rejoin as a project.
Bother, you've put it in terms even he will understand.
That's going a bit far, but a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU would work, although the lesson from what happened after 2016 is that terms of accession would have to be negotiated and precisely defined in advance of the vote. It might even appeal to Reform voters - one clause could be to return to the pre 2019 status quo on automatically returning unsuccessful asylum seekers to the EU border they came across, which would stop the boats just as effectively as it did when it was in place.
Here's someone who might be willing to write it into the manifesto. Expelled as a shadow frontbencher by Corbyn by voting in favour of the single market.
I see the remaining Brexit devotees are now openly panicking
OK dear.
Having suffered the utter incompetence of every government that has been In office since Brexit, the Euro and Schengen seem a small price to pay for taking power away from them.
That's going a bit far, but a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU would work, although the lesson from what happened after 2016 is that terms of accession would have to be negotiated and precisely defined in advance of the vote. It might even appeal to Reform voters - one clause could be to return to the pre 2019 status quo on automatically returning unsuccessful asylum seekers to the EU border they came across, which would stop the boats just as effectively as it did when it was in place.
Here's someone who might be willing to write it into the manifesto. Expelled as a shadow frontbencher by Corbyn by voting in favour of the single market.
I see the remaining Brexit devotees are now openly panicking
OK dear.
Having suffered the utter incompetence of every government that has been In office since Brexit, the Euro and Schengen seem a small price to pay for taking power away from them.
"Who runs Britain? I don't care so long as they do things I like."
I see the remaining Brexit devotees are now openly panicking
OK dear.
Having suffered the utter incompetence of every government that has been In office since Brexit, the Euro and Schengen seem a small price to pay for taking power away from them.
We can vote out an incompetent Government. The Tories were rightly booted out, and the same will happen to Starmer. That's the point.
That's going a bit far, but a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU would work, although the lesson from what happened after 2016 is that terms of accession would have to be negotiated and precisely defined in advance of the vote. It might even appeal to Reform voters - one clause could be to return to the pre 2019 status quo on automatically returning unsuccessful asylum seekers to the EU border they came across, which would stop the boats just as effectively as it did when it was in place.
Here's someone who might be willing to write it into the manifesto. Expelled as a shadow frontbencher by Corbyn by voting in favour of the single market.
That's going a bit far, but a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU would work, although the lesson from what happened after 2016 is that terms of accession would have to be negotiated and precisely defined in advance of the vote. It might even appeal to Reform voters - one clause could be to return to the pre 2019 status quo on automatically returning unsuccessful asylum seekers to the EU border they came across, which would stop the boats just as effectively as it did when it was in place.
Here's someone who might be willing to write it into the manifesto. Expelled as a shadow frontbencher by Corbyn by voting in favour of the single market.
That's going a bit far, but a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU would work, although the lesson from what happened after 2016 is that terms of accession would have to be negotiated and precisely defined in advance of the vote. It might even appeal to Reform voters - one clause could be to return to the pre 2019 status quo on automatically returning unsuccessful asylum seekers to the EU border they came across, which would stop the boats just as effectively as it did when it was in place.
Here's someone who might be willing to write it into the manifesto. Expelled as a shadow frontbencher by Corbyn by voting in favour of the single market.
One of the stupidest articles The Times has ever published
Just this paragraph:
“I personally know” “rejoining would be relatively fast” blah blah blah
That’s great. Ben fucking Judah personally knows that “France wants us back”. Which France, ben? The one run by macron who has to quit in two years? Before your referendum? How about Mme Le Pen? Have you asked her? Or Bardella? Or anyone in Spain? Cyprus? Bulgaria? They all have a veto
This is the exact equivalent of the idiot brexiteers who promised that Brexit would be “the easiest deal in history”
I think it is probably true the EU in general, and many EU leaders, would like us back, because a powerful nation of 70m coming back into the fold would add a lot of money into the coffers, bolster the cause of European unity, plus demonstrate the UK had been humbled by leaving and had to crawl back. It's so in their interests that I find it rather silly to think they wouldn't - like how some fools started to claim the EU no longer cared what happens in the UK, which is just dumb.
That's not the same as the EU wanting us back in now. Why would they want such a headache when the debate in the UK on the subject is still far from assured?
If I was the EU I would be very wary about accepting Britain back in without at least 2:1 support for it among British voters. The risk of Britain deciding to Leave again would be too great.
Looking at Starmers interview he’s really going for much closer ties with the EU and uses some of the most critical language we’ve seen from him in years on Brexit .
I see the remaining Brexit devotees are now openly panicking
OK dear.
Having suffered the utter incompetence of every government that has been In office since Brexit, the Euro and Schengen seem a small price to pay for taking power away from them.
And what if the EU proves to be incompetent as a government in running our currency and borders?
Looking at Starmers interview he’s really going for much closer ties with the EU and uses some of the most critical language we’ve seen from him in years on Brexit .
What I don't get is why his team is desperate for Catherine West to delay her leadership bid until after his reset speech. Why? That just buggers up the reset. Surely now is better, see it off and then reset.
Looking at Starmers interview he’s really going for much closer ties with the EU and uses some of the most critical language we’ve seen from him in years on Brexit .
Clearly, that's the play.
You might hate me, and I might lose the next GE, but stick with me for the rest of the term and I'll loosen Brexit.
Of course, Reform might immediately tighten it again in 3 years time, but hey-ho.
I see the remaining Brexit devotees are now openly panicking
OK dear.
Having suffered the utter incompetence of every government that has been In office since Brexit, the Euro and Schengen seem a small price to pay for taking power away from them.
And what if the EU proves to be incompetent as a government in running our currency and borders?
What then?
Fairliered will simply excercise his democratic right to vot...
That's going a bit far, but a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU would work, although the lesson from what happened after 2016 is that terms of accession would have to be negotiated and precisely defined in advance of the vote. It might even appeal to Reform voters - one clause could be to return to the pre 2019 status quo on automatically returning unsuccessful asylum seekers to the EU border they came across, which would stop the boats just as effectively as it did when it was in place.
Here's someone who might be willing to write it into the manifesto. Expelled as a shadow frontbencher by Corbyn by voting in favour of the single market.
Looking at Starmers interview he’s really going for much closer ties with the EU and uses some of the most critical language we’ve seen from him in years on Brexit .
What I don't get is why his team is desperate for Catherine West to delay her leadership bid until after his reset speech. Why? That just buggers up the reset. Surely now is better, see it off and then reset.
What is Burnham going to offer? There doesn't appear to be fiscal headroom with long term borrowing at 6%. He may be more personable and politically astute than Starmer but what is the agenda?
There shouldn’t be another EU referendum unless the terms of re-joining are clearly laid out beforehand .
We saw what happened with Brexit ! The EU aren’t going to indulge more UK psychodrama and why should they ?
And realistically unless and until there’s a very clear and strong majority for re-joining then the EU shouldn’t waste time on this because you could end up with a different UK government wanting to exit again .
Of course as a Hail Mary it would no longer surprise me if another EU referendum was part of Labours next manifesto.
Looking at Starmers interview he’s really going for much closer ties with the EU and uses some of the most critical language we’ve seen from him in years on Brexit .
What I don't get is why his team is desperate for Catherine West to delay her leadership bid until after his reset speech. Why? That just buggers up the reset. Surely now is better, see it off and then reset.
Anyone any ideas?
After his reset speech the argument would be to delay until after the King's Speech. Then delay until after something else. Starmer is far too weak to do anything, to oppose anything, so all he can do is seek to delay.
I saw Sir Anthony Meyer talk during his brief period of fame. It's decades ago now, of course, but the first thing he said, and the only thing I remember all these years later, was "Unlike Labour, the Conservative Party has always been more interested in power than principles".
Much less true at the time, under Margaret Thatcher, than under Cameron or Johnson (and with Labour under Starmer). Still, not entirely without merit.
I see the remaining Brexit devotees are now openly panicking
OK dear.
Having suffered the utter incompetence of every government that has been In office since Brexit, the Euro and Schengen seem a small price to pay for taking power away from them.
And what if the EU proves to be incompetent as a government in running our currency and borders?
What then?
I guess the EU being a union of consent*, the UK would be allowed to rethink yet again.
What is Burnham going to offer? There doesn't appear to be fiscal headroom with long term borrowing at 6%. He may be more personable and politically astute than Starmer but what is the agenda?
Not the Tories Starmer. It's this incredible depth of thinking that makes the Labour Party the political colossus it is.
I see the remaining Brexit devotees are now openly panicking
OK dear.
Having suffered the utter incompetence of every government that has been In office since Brexit, the Euro and Schengen seem a small price to pay for taking power away from them.
And what if the EU proves to be incompetent as a government in running our currency and borders?
What then?
I guess the EU being a union of consent*, the UK would be allowed to rethink yet again.
*not all unions are like this.
Article 50 didn't exist until 2007.
Now, in practical terms, a process would have been found if we'd asked to leave, of course. Scotland is welcome to do a UDI and see what happens...
That headline reminded me of this famous quote from American history:
Washington [D.C.] is not a place to live in. The rents are high, the food is bad, the dust is disgusting and the morals are deplorable. Go West, young man, go West and grow up with the country.
Despite its fame, its origin is obscure. Historians do not agree on who said it, or when it was said.
I look forward to one of you adapting that quotation to your current little problem. Suggesting a move to Wales, perhaps? To Canada, or even Greenland?
What is Burnham going to offer? There doesn't appear to be fiscal headroom with long term borrowing at 6%. He may be more personable and politically astute than Starmer but what is the agenda?
The Trump induced global shitshow, the post GFC sluggish economy, and the boxed in public finances aren't changing with Burnham or anyone else. So it is mainly about personal qualities, in particular connecting with the public. Starmer can't do that. Replacing him with somebody who can is the point of the exercise.
I don’t understand what Sir Keir has done to upset his voters. He won a big majority, why not give him his five years to use it? What does it matter if he’s got mid term blues?
I don’t understand what Sir Keir has done to upset his voters. He won a big majority, why not give him his five years to use it? What does it matter if he’s got mid term blues?
This isn't a mid term issue. This is about a lack of vision from the outset, administrative chaos and poor judgement ever since.
I don’t understand what Sir Keir has done to upset his voters. He won a big majority, why not give him his five years to use it? What does it matter if he’s got mid term blues?
This isn't a mid term issue. This is about a lack of vision from the outset, administrative chaos and poor judgement ever since.
This has been coming for years.
Perhaps it was always inevitable. But I still think if they’d not done winter fuel (even though I think that was the right decision) they’d probably have got a lot further.
I don’t understand what Sir Keir has done to upset his voters. He won a big majority, why not give him his five years to use it? What does it matter if he’s got mid term blues?
This isn't a mid term issue. This is about a lack of vision from the outset, administrative chaos and poor judgement ever since.
This has been coming for years.
Perhaps it was always inevitable. But I still think if they’d not done winter fuel (even though I think that was the right decision) they’d probably have got a lot further.
Who could blame anyone for looking at this front bench/cabinet and thinking Even I could do better than that?
Half the posters here could do a better job.
At work, the other day, one of the managers put on the group chat that he had made a mistake in a specification, causing the current production problem. And here was the fix.
Admitted culpability, fixed the problem.
Fired, of course. But did the right thing.
Actually no. In the real world, people who admit mistakes are valuable. To those with half a brain.
A. Half-brains are quite uncommon in UK management.
I see the remaining Brexit devotees are now openly panicking
OK dear.
Having suffered the utter incompetence of every government that has been In office since Brexit, the Euro and Schengen seem a small price to pay for taking power away from them.
And what if the EU proves to be incompetent as a government in running our currency and borders?
What then?
It reminds me of Mrs Thatcher remonstrating with an Italian voter in the early 1990s:
"But surely you don't want to be run from Brussels" said she "It can't be any worse than being run from Rome," said the Italian man with a shrug
Rejoining the EU - or attempting to Rejoin (we might be vetoed) - would be easily as agonising as Brexit and probably much worse. Because quitting a club is ultimately easier than joining. Especially joining a club that isn’t sure you’d be a good member
It would five-ten years of anguished and tedious negotiations during which the EU - and every member state - would try to extract as much juice from the British Orange as possible. They would make the pips squeak
And, despite what “Ben Judah” says, we would certainly have to join the euro. It’s the one way to shackle us forever
we would not be vetoed per se. We would be told full fat including Euro and Schengen, or no.
Actually, I don't think that necessarily true. The EU is happy to have many countries indefinitely delaying Euro membership, because the time is never quite right. I have no doubt that -if we were going to be writing a large cheque- then we would get the same treatment.
What is Burnham going to offer? There doesn't appear to be fiscal headroom with long term borrowing at 6%. He may be more personable and politically astute than Starmer but what is the agenda?
I get that. But being more personable and appearing to actually listen and take an interest in what is heard, then formulate some response, even if it is merely platitude would be a heck of an upgrade.
That headline reminded me of this famous quote from American history:
Washington [D.C.] is not a place to live in. The rents are high, the food is bad, the dust is disgusting and the morals are deplorable. Go West, young man, go West and grow up with the country.
Despite its fame, its origin is obscure. Historians do not agree on who said it, or when it was said.
I look forward to one of you adapting that quotation to your current little problem. Suggesting a move to Wales, perhaps? To Canada, or even Greenland?
Who could blame anyone for looking at this front bench/cabinet and thinking Even I could do better than that?
Half the posters here could do a better job.
At work, the other day, one of the managers put on the group chat that he had made a mistake in a specification, causing the current production problem. And here was the fix.
Admitted culpability, fixed the problem.
Fired, of course. But did the right thing.
Actually no. In the real world, people who admit mistakes are valuable. To those with half a brain.
A. Half-brains are quite uncommon in UK management.
B. Depends on the industry.
At the level of actually doing work, things are different.
We don’t have the time to waste on performative wankers.
Anyone who wants to do Me Big Man No Make Mistakes can chuck themselves off the Coq D’Argent.
That headline reminded me of this famous quote from American history: "Washington [D.C.] is not a place to live in. The rents are high, the food is bad, the dust is disgusting and the morals are deplorable. Go West, young man, go West and grow up with the country." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_West,_young_man
Despite its fame, its origin is obscure. Historians do not agree on who said it, or when it was said.
I look forward to one of you adapting that quotation to your current little problem. Suggesting a move to Wales, perhaps? To Canada, or even Greenland?
I don’t understand what Sir Keir has done to upset his voters. He won a big majority, why not give him his five years to use it? What does it matter if he’s got mid term blues?
This isn't a mid term issue. This is about a lack of vision from the outset, administrative chaos and poor judgement ever since.
This has been coming for years.
Perhaps it was always inevitable. But I still think if they’d not done winter fuel (even though I think that was the right decision) they’d probably have got a lot further.
Mandelson would still have happened
I think Mandelson was probably survivable if the PM had started stronger.
Comments
A resilient chap. Won Eton & Slough, against the trend in 1964, from Fenner Brockway, due to an extremely professional campaign organised by the party agent there. And, later, was an MP in N Wales, and successfully fended off an attempt to deselect him in favour of Beata Brookes, an MEP, from the Thatcherite side of the party.
It turned out later that he had a rather colourful private life which didn't, apparently, faze Lady Meyer in the slightest.
Those were the days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Anthony_Meyer,_3rd_Baronet#/media/File:Anthony_Meyer.jpg
Noa Hoffman
@hoffman_noa
Understand Catherine West didn’t tell her staffers in advance about her leadership bid. They are “perplexed” and now “trying to work with nothing concrete to work on”
https://x.com/hoffman_noa/status/2053202996620620125
Yes, a real Henry Kissinger.
My guess, more guff.
Polling for Queen Margaret University found 80% of Labour supporters want to join the customs union. But 9% of Labour supporters want 'someone other than the UK deciding our tariff policy' - which is the customs union. Support for rejoin is a bubble. It's supporters are low information people who have no idea what it entails.
There isn't enough time to hold and win a referendum and then negotiate and pass an accession treaty, still less manage a transition with all the complexities and politics around it.
And even if it was (it isn't) it'd be immediately denounced by the new administration.
:: looks down and prepares slightly phlegmatic voice it has been told sounds authentic ::
Our children’s AI mainlined hopemobile. A Labour hopemobile. Not the same old tired Tory promises of a hopemobile. This is a vision. A vision a Strong Labour Party can make reality!
It would five-ten years of anguished and tedious negotiations during which the EU - and every member state - would try to extract as much juice from the British Orange as possible. They would make the pips squeak
And, despite what “Ben Judah” says, we would certainly have to join the euro. It’s the one way to shackle us forever
It might even gain them a little from where they are now, but it wouldn't make the UK suddenly not politically divided - I don't think the EU would ever want to risk a repeat, and wouldn't want us back in unless 'stay out' parties were at 15% or less.
For a start in 2019 Labour needed high thirties to win a GE. Currently they need mid to high twenties.
The public are a bit less Brexity than they were in 2019.
The remain bloc who thought it important that leave was implemented will now be open to closer ties.
It is their best card to play unless they can somehow magic £100bn a year or so.
So shut up. You don’t know. No one knows. It would be a massive gamble, that is the only honest account
Telling the Observer he plans ten more years is so mad in the current circumstances it may be a cry for help.
The more people criticise her for no good reason the more I am inclined to think well of her.
Although I must admit the irony of telling me to shut up because I don't know, nobody can know what would happen while confidently predicting what would happen yourself is amusing.
Truth hurts.
Reform and the Conservatives would have the advantage, because there are simply more Leave inclined ones than Remain ones.
So it's a dead duck.
What then?
Anyone any ideas?
You might hate me, and I might lose the next GE, but stick with me for the rest of the term and I'll loosen Brexit.
Of course, Reform might immediately tighten it again in 3 years time, but hey-ho.
Oh.
We saw what happened with Brexit ! The EU aren’t going to indulge more UK psychodrama and why should they ?
And realistically unless and until there’s a very clear and strong majority for re-joining then the EU shouldn’t waste time on this because you could end up with a different UK government wanting to exit again .
Of course as a Hail Mary it would no longer surprise me if another EU referendum was part of Labours next manifesto.
I will never vote to rejoin
The past decade has made it clear that the EU project is fundamentally flawed and I want no part of the idea of a European superstate
I love being part of Europe. The food, the culture, the history.
But want nothing to do with the bloated mess that is the EU project
Not today. Not today. Not today...
Much less true at the time, under Margaret Thatcher, than under Cameron or Johnson (and with Labour under Starmer). Still, not entirely without merit.
*not all unions are like this.
the ToriesStarmer. It's this incredible depth of thinking that makes the Labour Party the political colossus it is.Now, in practical terms, a process would have been found if we'd asked to leave, of course. Scotland is welcome to do a UDI and see what happens...
Despite its fame, its origin is obscure. Historians do not agree on who said it, or when it was said.
I look forward to one of you adapting that quotation to your current little problem. Suggesting a move to Wales, perhaps? To Canada, or even Greenland?
The relationship we’d be voting for is not one I want part of.
There is very little quality in the current team
The rumour of Milliband as CoE is worrying. That sort of zealotry should not be near the levers of power.
He needs decent communicators with the ability to master a complex brief. Not place holders with no real understanding of their policy area.
Now that would be a mess
Labour imploding is to be expected. They deserve everything that's coming to them.
Ed strikes me as a dreamer. Would people prefer that?
This has been coming for years.
I like Shabana Mahmood.
Are you allergic to bacon sandwiches?
Nigel Farage says a “serious” hack of his computer led to the revelation that he received a £5m undeclared gift
Reform UK is “exploring” its legal options
Hahahaha
B. Depends on the industry.
"But surely you don't want to be run from Brussels" said she
"It can't be any worse than being run from Rome," said the Italian man with a shrug
But being more personable and appearing to actually listen and take an interest in what is heard, then formulate some response, even if it is merely platitude would be a heck of an upgrade.
Despite its fame, its origin is obscure. Historians do not agree on who said it, or when it was said.
I look forward to one of you adapting that quotation to your current little problem. Suggesting a move to Wales, perhaps? To Canada, or even Greenland?
I'm sure it was the Pet Shop Boys.
We don’t have the time to waste on performative wankers.
Anyone who wants to do Me Big Man No Make Mistakes can chuck themselves off the Coq D’Argent.