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No leads Yes by 33% in new independence poll – politicalbetting.com

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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491

    theProle said:

    IanB2 said:

    Applying the Hayward projections to the current seat totals for those up for election, suggests Labour might be looking at winning only about 400 seats, with the Tories on about 500, the LibDems on 800, with about 400 independents, the Greens winning around 700 and Reform 1,700. If the actual results are anything like that, it doesn't look like a "disappointing night" for the LibDems?

    Coming second in council seats won, while fifth in the national opinion polls, should properly be regarded as a good showing. It's going to be overshadowed by gains by Reform/Greens, Plaid in Wales, plus Labour's collapse everywhere, and maybe the relatively poor showing by the official opposition. So only sixth in the news pecking order.

    Do the expected Lib Dem gains point to any areas where they might hope to make progress at the next general election?
    Mark Pack (former President of the Lib Dems) has set out six metrics by which to measure Lib Dem success next week.

    https://www.markpack.org.uk/176720/6-ways-to-judge-the-liberal-democrat-election-results-ldn209/

    I hadn't realised that if they make net gains (which seems highly likely) then they wil be on an eight year winning streak.
    Given that they were pretty comprehensively trashed by the coalition, it's hardly supprising they hit a very low point immediately afterwards then have been gently drifting upwards ever since.
    Yes. To put some stats behind that, the Lib Dems had 19.0% of all councillors in 2010, and dipped to 8.9% at their nadir, recovering to 17.1% today. Their peak in recent times was 22.3% in 1996 when the Conservatives were at their nadir.

    That's a pretty decent recovery given Green and Reform have many more councillors than in past decades (and will surely have plenty of additions to shout about next Friday) but still a bit lower than 2010.

    Some other benchmarks to look for. The Tory nadir in 1996 was 18.7% and they are currently at 23.8%. The Labour nadir was 21.5% in 2009 and they are currently at 32.9%. So both still have a bit of space even if they have very bad nights as expected, but might start looking over their shoulders. The Tories in particular had 44.7% even in 2018 after eight years in office, so quite a dip in recent years.
    Oh, I remember when it was widely predicted on here that the LDs had so destroyed their base of councillors they could never come back.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,542
    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    A fascinating thing that should have been obvious. I admit I have not considered making this argument.

    All electrical car charging points should include a socket for charging electric cycles and mobility aids. Why was this not done anyway?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6IyukCIia8

    Great idea but we’d need portable electric bike charging leads too, preferably with a uniform end that plugs into the socket in the charging point.
    One example could be a 3 pin external socket. Most of us carry a chargers for use in eg cafes if we have detachable batteries. I get RCD protected doubles for about £25. The cost would be negligible if made a standard requirement for street-side or parking area chargers.

    it looks like a basic legal requirement under "Equal provision of services" law, which has been in place for more than 3 decades.

    It feels to me to be one that has just not been thought about - a blindspot. I'm embarrassed that I had not copped this one.

    It would cause mental explosions amongst the "roads are for motor vehicles" brigade, but that's just something that happens whatever you do. A person using a mobility scooter is an equally important traveller as a person in a motor vehicle (and in law arguably a more entitled road user).
    Car chargers are now legally supposed to be smart with delayed starts (to ensure we don't get a peak surge when they all switch on at the exact same second) and are often controlled by 3rd party apps. I'm trying to work out what you are aiming to achieve here that can't be fixed by an outdoor 13amp plug..
    I think it could be fixed by an outdoor 13 amp plug on every electric charging point. So why are they not fitted already by default?

    The original video (worth a watch) was because the Youtuber was not able to go more than the range of his battery because public charging facilities were not available for electric bicycles and mobility aids - so in his case he is limited to 15 miles out and 15 miles back, as it was a 30 mile battery.

    He said "Petrol stations are being replaced by charging staitons - why is my electric cycle not in the picture?", and went from there,

    I agree with him, I'm interested that it was not done anyway (eg covered in the British Charging Points Standard), or required by Local Authorities in their project specs, and that it has been a blind spot for me that I should not have missed.
    Start looking into the definitions of charging infrastructure, certification, and if allowing someone to plugin on a commercial premises is commercial sale of electricity.

    Prepare to cry.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,509

    FPT: One of the good things happening in the US is the slow recovery of our civil rights laws from the decades-long attacks (mostly from the left). The Supreme Court deserves the most credit for that recovery.

    The recent decision on "majority-minority" districts is a good example of that recovery. As Chief Justice John Roberts said, back in 2005, “the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”

    Incidentally, the decision is likely to help the Democratic Party in the long run. The central idea behind gerrymandering is to concentrate the other party's voters in a few districts; majority/minority districts often do exactly that. When the idea was first discussed, I expected unscrupulous Republicans to work with minority Democrats who wanted safe seats -- and that does appear to have happened in some states.

    I'd agree that majority-minority districts were a kludge to mitigate the worst effects of previous arrangements and manipulations.

    But OTOH as far I can see everything is a series of kludges since 1776 (or 1791 ?), because they don't want to fix the basic problems which are sometimes inherent in the Constitution itself, and those responsible for the necessary changes benefit from not doing them.
  • DavidL said:

    Brent oil price has lost some its earlier crazy froth, but still at $114.

    Traded above $90 now for 50 consecutive days.

    Impact is ten times that of the Ukrainian war.

    So, we are looking for a holiday at the end of this month/beginning of June. My better half has heard me muttering about shortages of jet fuel and travel disruption in countries who seem less keen to have a tourist industry going forward. It is genuinely impacting on where we get to use our new passports. We are even thinking about holidays in this country (again).

    I would be interested to know if anyone has any great insight into this. A couple of weeks ago we were told that we had about 6 weeks jet fuel left but it seems to have had a much lower profile since then. Has this gone away?
    I can report from inside the travel industry that everyone seems much less panicked now - about jet fuel etc - than they were six weeks ago. This might just be denial and hope casting, or it might be a well-founded realisation that the impact is less than feared (for whatever reasons)

    FWIW and in my personal opinion you can be fairly confident that if you book a continental holiday this summer it will be fine. But don’t sue me if I’m wrong
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,378
    On local elections:

    Luke Tryl
    @LukeTryl
    ·
    11m
    Green campaign risks closing in similar way to Reform campaign in 2024 with v similar echos - liability (or worse) candidates views, comments on Putin. Still set to do very well but maybe enough to make some wavering voters - otherwise attracted to Green hopeful message - pause.

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2049852015174467776
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,397
    malcolmg said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Even more browbeaten and downtrodden than Scotland. Many have Stockholm syndrome as per Scotland.
    So why don't they all fuck off to Stockholm then?

    Sorry malcy, I've been to close on a hundred countries, and yet I've never met a nation remotely as whiny as the Scots.

    Scotland had a chance to do soemthing about it - but preferred suckling on London's teat.

    And with that - off to build turnip proof wall. Worked for the Romans...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 635

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    It's geography.
    There's a bloody big hill in the middle of it.
    So traffic is routed around the coast.

    Labour and then SNP in Scotland have had similar issues linking the north and south.

  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 635
    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
    and what would be the point?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,519
    edited April 30

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.

    Well I imagine that will be a greater priority for them. However , duelling the A470 from Cardiff to Llandudno would cost a fortune and has very very little economic case, and if they did that there would be howls of protest about why not the M4 relief road ( a multi decade saga) to relieve the car park which was formerly known as the Bryn Glas tunnels in Newport, which at least has some sort of logical economic justification ( but not many Plaid voters along it),
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,467

    malcolmg said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Even more browbeaten and downtrodden than Scotland. Many have Stockholm syndrome as per Scotland.
    So why don't they all fuck off to Stockholm then?

    Sorry malcy, I've been to close on a hundred countries, and yet I've never met a nation remotely as whiny as the Scots.

    Scotland had a chance to do soemthing about it - but preferred suckling on London's teat.

    And with that - off to build turnip proof wall. Worked for the Romans...
    You are correct Mark, a cowardly bunch , though more than 50% of Scots voted yes , it was immigrants that swung it to No as they were lied to about being out of EU if they voted yes.
    If England is so secure why so scared to have a vote, because they are scared and don't want to lose their golden goose. Your turnip will have a very pointy end.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,509
    edited April 30

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    A fascinating thing that should have been obvious. I admit I have not considered making this argument.

    All electrical car charging points should include a socket for charging electric cycles and mobility aids. Why was this not done anyway?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6IyukCIia8

    Great idea but we’d need portable electric bike charging leads too, preferably with a uniform end that plugs into the socket in the charging point.
    One example could be a 3 pin external socket. Most of us carry a chargers for use in eg cafes if we have detachable batteries. I get RCD protected doubles for about £25. The cost would be negligible if made a standard requirement for street-side or parking area chargers.

    it looks like a basic legal requirement under "Equal provision of services" law, which has been in place for more than 3 decades.

    It feels to me to be one that has just not been thought about - a blindspot. I'm embarrassed that I had not copped this one.

    It would cause mental explosions amongst the "roads are for motor vehicles" brigade, but that's just something that happens whatever you do. A person using a mobility scooter is an equally important traveller as a person in a motor vehicle (and in law arguably a more entitled road user).
    Car chargers are now legally supposed to be smart with delayed starts (to ensure we don't get a peak surge when they all switch on at the exact same second) and are often controlled by 3rd party apps. I'm trying to work out what you are aiming to achieve here that can't be fixed by an outdoor 13amp plug..
    I think it could be fixed by an outdoor 13 amp plug on every electric charging point. So why are they not fitted already by default?

    The original video (worth a watch) was because the Youtuber was not able to go more than the range of his battery because public charging facilities were not available for electric bicycles and mobility aids - so in his case he is limited to 15 miles out and 15 miles back, as it was a 30 mile battery.

    He said "Petrol stations are being replaced by charging staitons - why is my electric cycle not in the picture?", and went from there,

    I agree with him, I'm interested that it was not done anyway (eg covered in the British Charging Points Standard), or required by Local Authorities in their project specs, and that it has been a blind spot for me that I should not have missed.
    Start looking into the definitions of charging infrastructure, certification, and if allowing someone to plugin on a commercial premises is commercial sale of electricity.

    Prepare to cry.
    I think it is probably more subtle than that, and it is also about protocols.

    There is no problem with paying for electricity (as the chap in the video does) - there are dozens of free charging points around. There are initiatives by the Walk Wheel Cycle Trust, and also the National Trust are doing some things.

    I can plug in my laptop at Starbucks without complications; that is a commercial premises.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,798
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Brent oil price has lost some its earlier crazy froth, but still at $114.

    Traded above $90 now for 50 consecutive days.

    Impact is ten times that of the Ukrainian war.

    So, we are looking for a holiday at the end of this month/beginning of June. My better half has heard me muttering about shortages of jet fuel and travel disruption in countries who seem less keen to have a tourist industry going forward. It is genuinely impacting on where we get to use our new passports. We are even thinking about holidays in this country (again).

    I would be interested to know if anyone has any great insight into this. A couple of weeks ago we were told that we had about 6 weeks jet fuel left but it seems to have had a much lower profile since then. Has this gone away?
    I can report from inside the travel industry that everyone seems much less panicked now - about jet fuel etc - than they were six weeks ago. This might just be denial and hope casting, or it might be a well-founded realisation that the impact is less than feared (for whatever reasons)

    FWIW and in my personal opinion you can be fairly confident that if you book a continental holiday this summer it will be fine. But don’t sue me if I’m wrong
    Good to hear. Partly, persuaded by you I have booked a two week trip to China in September. But no, I won't sue, if it all goes pear-shaped.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,653

    Taz said:

    Labour Party approach to anti semitism after the latest attack on Jews from a, as reported in the press., British National



    My proposal of what to do...

    Ban Twitter. It's full of antisemitism. From the right, from the left.
    Zionists claim that criticizing Israel or opposing Zionism is antisemitic. Meanwhile, tens of thousands of Orthodox Jews gather in New York to declare that Zionism violates the Jewish faith and does not represent Judaism.

    Twitter from what I see has lots of people who oppose Zionist Genocide but hardly anyone who is against Judaism.

    In the UK surely it would be fine for me to suggest that anyone who doesn't vote for the only Party with a Jewish leader is an AntiSemite by the ridiculous arguments used by others
    My second proposal for action on antisemitism is... use Polanski. He is Jewish and proud of that. He is very opposed to the current Israeli govt and their actions. He should be well placed to say that you can oppose what Israel is doing invading its neighbours without falling into antisemitism.

    Whether he can actually make that distinction and whether he wants to, I don't know. Some statements he's made have not seemed so helpful.
    I think this is an excellent idea. I would say there is a need to draw a very clear and very wide distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. The first we should treat far more seriously than we currently do both at societal and Governmental level. But we should not allow the pro Zionists to conflate the two. They are on no way the same.
    I agree with all of that.

    One of the more troubling aspects of the conflict in Israel/Palestine is that for now the racists are effectively in power on both sides.

    We have almost no power to change that, but we can and must prevent it being imported here.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491
    MattW said:

    A fascinating thing that should have been obvious. I admit I have not considered making this argument.

    All electrical car charging points should include a socket for charging electric cycles and mobility aids. Why was this not done anyway?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6IyukCIia8

    Ummm... wouldn't it be simpler to mandate that ebikes use USB PD for charging? That would (a) make them all massively safer, and (b) mean that pretty much any laptop or phone charger could top them up.

    Now, some would say 'oh, it'd be slower'. But that's not even true any more: modern GAN USB C PD chargers can get up to 240 watts these days, and 99% of ebike battery chargers are less powerful than that.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,798

    On local elections:

    Luke Tryl
    @LukeTryl
    ·
    11m
    Green campaign risks closing in similar way to Reform campaign in 2024 with v similar echos - liability (or worse) candidates views, comments on Putin. Still set to do very well but maybe enough to make some wavering voters - otherwise attracted to Green hopeful message - pause.

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2049852015174467776

    I will be voting Labour with some considerable reluctance next week, because where I live (Greenwich) the contest is effectively between them and the Greens.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,035
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    Absolutely agree but what I think does complicate it is, as we’ve seen here from time to time, any criticism of Israel can be met by cries of anti semitism.
    Because Israel is held to a higher standard than any other nation on earth…
    Is that true?

    Personally, I've given Israel a lot of slack in Gaza.

    But it's hard to defend their creeping annexation of the West Bank. If Russia was invading Ukraine by taking over a village, kicking out the inhabitants, and installing some Russians, I think we'd all think that was wrong. So, how can I defend such behaviour by this cycle of new settlements being created, by the eviction of Palestinians, and then the Israelis declaring the settlement legal?

    It's also hard to defend a law which says that a Palestinian that kills a Jewish settler gets the death penalty, while if it happens the other way around, then there's no death penalty. I would hope that if you had a similar law with -say- white and black people, it would be derided as racist.
    Those things are hard to defend, that’s true. But that doesn’t make the Gaza war or campaign against Hezbollah a genocide.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,519
    Sweeney74 said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    It's geography.
    There's a bloody big hill in the middle of it.
    So traffic is routed around the coast.

    Labour and then SNP in Scotland have had similar issues linking the north and south.

    Yes there are lots of hills! However most of the north south connections, certainly from SE Wales to NE wales (or even Gwynedd) tend to go through Herefordshire/Shropshire either by road or rail because it’s quicker. Indeed it’s probable the beef on the bone ban ( remember that?) collapsed because Wales made it legal and there was a temporary situation where a butcher en route from Cardiff to Wrexham would be carrying illegal contraband on the A49 route through the Marches but perfectly within the law if they stuck to the A470. Could’ve made a latter day Ealing comedy out of that.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,782
    edited April 30
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    Absolutely agree but what I think does complicate it is, as we’ve seen here from time to time, any criticism of Israel can be met by cries of anti semitism.
    Because Israel is held to a higher standard than any other nation on earth…
    Is that true?

    Personally, I've given Israel a lot of slack in Gaza.

    But it's hard to defend their creeping annexation of the West Bank. If Russia was invading Ukraine by taking over a village, kicking out the inhabitants, and installing some Russians, I think we'd all think that was wrong. So, how can I defend such behaviour by this cycle of new settlements being created, by the eviction of Palestinians, and then the Israelis declaring the settlement legal?

    It's also hard to defend a law which says that a Palestinian that kills a Jewish settler gets the death penalty, while if it happens the other way around, then there's no death penalty. I would hope that if you had a similar law with -say- white and black people, it would be derided as racist.
    22 Arab states = 13,000,000 sq. km. of territory (say 3/4 the size of Russia)
    Israel = 22,000 sq. km. (roughly the size of Wales)
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 635
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Even more browbeaten and downtrodden than Scotland. Many have Stockholm syndrome as per Scotland.
    So why don't they all fuck off to Stockholm then?

    Sorry malcy, I've been to close on a hundred countries, and yet I've never met a nation remotely as whiny as the Scots.

    Scotland had a chance to do soemthing about it - but preferred suckling on London's teat.

    And with that - off to build turnip proof wall. Worked for the Romans...
    You are correct Mark, a cowardly bunch , though more than 50% of Scots voted yes , it was immigrants that swung it to No as they were lied to about being out of EU if they voted yes.
    ...
    That's a bold claim
    Not however backed by anything resembling evidence.
    55.3% No, 44.7% Yes, on an 84.6% turnout.
    There’s no credible evidence that “immigrants swung it”. Voting patterns were driven far more by age, income and risk appetite than nationality.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,215
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 635
    welshowl said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    It's geography.
    There's a bloody big hill in the middle of it.
    So traffic is routed around the coast.

    Labour and then SNP in Scotland have had similar issues linking the north and south.

    Yes there are lots of hills! However most of the north south connections, certainly from SE Wales to NE wales (or even Gwynedd) tend to go through Herefordshire/Shropshire either by road or rail because it’s quicker. Indeed it’s probable the beef on the bone ban ( remember that?) collapsed because Wales made it legal and there was a temporary situation where a butcher en route from Cardiff to Wrexham would be carrying illegal contraband on the A49 route through the Marches but perfectly within the law if they stuck to the A470. Could’ve made a latter day Ealing comedy out of that.
    I had forgotten about that! What larks
    Lived for a while in Shropshire, nothing moves fast there.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,782
    Sweeney74 said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    It's geography.
    There's a bloody big hill in the middle of it.
    So traffic is routed around the coast.

    Labour and then SNP in Scotland have had similar issues linking the north and south.

    Actually, it was Beeching! There were plenty of N-S links on Welsh territory pre-1963.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689
    Sweeney74 said:

    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
    and what would be the point?
    To get from Fishguard to Bangor within Wales, rather than going to England and up the M5.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,035
    edited April 30

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Nevertheless, Jews in the UK are not responsible for the actions of the State of Israel. Just as Muslims in the UK were not responsible for the attacks of October 7.
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 635
    Sandpit said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
    and what would be the point?
    To get from Fishguard to Bangor within Wales, rather than going to England and up the M5.
    Yes, but why would one want to...
    jk obviously
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,523
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    It is plain you don't understand what Zionism actually means. It is explicit in believing that the Jewish homeland should encompass all of the Palestine and should have as few non-Jews living in it as possible. It actively encourages ethnic cleansing and the seizing of lands well beyond what was agreed in 1948.

    No sane, reasonable person should deny the right of Israel to exist and the Jewish people to have a homeland. At the same time no sane, reasonable person should support the Zionist view of what this homeland should be and what it would mean for any non-Jews living there. We are seeing zionism in action in the West Bank settler movement. If you support that then you are as bad as the anti-Semites and other racists
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491

    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    Absolutely agree but what I think does complicate it is, as we’ve seen here from time to time, any criticism of Israel can be met by cries of anti semitism.
    Because Israel is held to a higher standard than any other nation on earth…
    Is that true?

    Personally, I've given Israel a lot of slack in Gaza.

    But it's hard to defend their creeping annexation of the West Bank. If Russia was invading Ukraine by taking over a village, kicking out the inhabitants, and installing some Russians, I think we'd all think that was wrong. So, how can I defend such behaviour by this cycle of new settlements being created, by the eviction of Palestinians, and then the Israelis declaring the settlement legal?

    It's also hard to defend a law which says that a Palestinian that kills a Jewish settler gets the death penalty, while if it happens the other way around, then there's no death penalty. I would hope that if you had a similar law with -say- white and black people, it would be derided as racist.
    Those things are hard to defend, that’s true. But that doesn’t make the Gaza war or campaign against Hezbollah a genocide.
    Israel does plenty of things that are justifiable: but that doesn't mean it doesn't do things which are unjustifiable. Pointing out that a burglar helps his Nan out every weekend doesn't mean he's not still guilty of being a burglar.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689
    edited April 30
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Brent oil price has lost some its earlier crazy froth, but still at $114.

    Traded above $90 now for 50 consecutive days.

    Impact is ten times that of the Ukrainian war.

    So, we are looking for a holiday at the end of this month/beginning of June. My better half has heard me muttering about shortages of jet fuel and travel disruption in countries who seem less keen to have a tourist industry going forward. It is genuinely impacting on where we get to use our new passports. We are even thinking about holidays in this country (again).

    I would be interested to know if anyone has any great insight into this. A couple of weeks ago we were told that we had about 6 weeks jet fuel left but it seems to have had a much lower profile since then. Has this gone away?
    I can report from inside the travel industry that everyone seems much less panicked now - about jet fuel etc - than they were six weeks ago. This might just be denial and hope casting, or it might be a well-founded realisation that the impact is less than feared (for whatever reasons)

    FWIW and in my personal opinion you can be fairly confident that if you book a continental holiday this summer it will be fine. But don’t sue me if I’m wrong
    Somewhat ironically, if the jet fuel runs out the best summer flights will be through the Middle East.

    Emirates can run an A380 from Dubai to Heathrow and back to Dubai, without needing any fuel in London.

    A few planes out of the US can probably do the same.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,520
    BREAKING: The PM will address the nation from Downing Street in the next few minutes
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,523
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Nevertheless, Jews in the UK are not responsible for the actions of the State of Israel. Just as Muslims in the UK were not responsible for the attacks of October 7.
    No one here is claiming they are. I have seen no one on here say that there is any justification for attacking or abusing Jews living in Britain or anywhere else. What I have seen is people like Sandpit trying to claim that being anti-Zionist is the same as being anti-Semitic when clearly it is not.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    It is plain you don't understand what Zionism actually means. It is explicit in believing that the Jewish homeland should encompass all of the Palestine and should have as few non-Jews living in it as possible. It actively encourages ethnic cleansing and the seizing of lands well beyond what was agreed in 1948.

    No sane, reasonable person should deny the right of Israel to exist and the Jewish people to have a homeland. At the same time no sane, reasonable person should support the Zionist view of what this homeland should be and what it would mean for any non-Jews living there. We are seeing zionism in action in the West Bank settler movement. If you support that then you are as bad as the anti-Semites and other racists
    Zionism means different things to different people, surely.

    To some people, 'Zionism' refers to the right of the State of Israel to exist. To others, it refers -as you say- to the belief that Israel should encompass all the land from the river to the sea. (And -of course- there are many proponents of that version of Zionism in the current Israeli cabinet.)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,035
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    Absolutely agree but what I think does complicate it is, as we’ve seen here from time to time, any criticism of Israel can be met by cries of anti semitism.
    Because Israel is held to a higher standard than any other nation on earth…
    Is that true?

    Personally, I've given Israel a lot of slack in Gaza.

    But it's hard to defend their creeping annexation of the West Bank. If Russia was invading Ukraine by taking over a village, kicking out the inhabitants, and installing some Russians, I think we'd all think that was wrong. So, how can I defend such behaviour by this cycle of new settlements being created, by the eviction of Palestinians, and then the Israelis declaring the settlement legal?

    It's also hard to defend a law which says that a Palestinian that kills a Jewish settler gets the death penalty, while if it happens the other way around, then there's no death penalty. I would hope that if you had a similar law with -say- white and black people, it would be derided as racist.
    Those things are hard to defend, that’s true. But that doesn’t make the Gaza war or campaign against Hezbollah a genocide.
    Israel does plenty of things that are justifiable: but that doesn't mean it doesn't do things which are unjustifiable. Pointing out that a burglar helps his Nan out every weekend doesn't mean he's not still guilty of being a burglar.
    True. But there is a significant overlap between people who ignore or even excuse Putin’s, Hamas’ and Hezbollah’s war crimes and those who spend every waking hour criticising Israel.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,369
    Just one local by-election today - a Con defence in Malvern Hills.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,519

    Sweeney74 said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    It's geography.
    There's a bloody big hill in the middle of it.
    So traffic is routed around the coast.

    Labour and then SNP in Scotland have had similar issues linking the north and south.

    Actually, it was Beeching! There were plenty of N-S links on Welsh territory pre-1963.
    Justice for Ivor ( Ifor?) the Engine!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,509
    edited April 30
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    A fascinating thing that should have been obvious. I admit I have not considered making this argument.

    All electrical car charging points should include a socket for charging electric cycles and mobility aids. Why was this not done anyway?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6IyukCIia8

    Ummm... wouldn't it be simpler to mandate that ebikes use USB PD for charging? That would (a) make them all massively safer, and (b) mean that pretty much any laptop or phone charger could top them up.

    Now, some would say 'oh, it'd be slower'. But that's not even true any more: modern GAN USB C PD chargers can get up to 240 watts these days, and 99% of ebike battery chargers are less powerful than that.
    I don't see a safety benefit over a 3 pin charger - how does that work, when normal outdoor connections are 3 pin? And it is a new type of connection over what everyone has as normal, so everyone would have to buy new chargers.

    The normal setup is that the 3pin is stepped down to 24V for the battery connection. I have seen power requirements up to 300-500W.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Nevertheless, Jews in the UK are not responsible for the actions of the State of Israel. Just as Muslims in the UK were not responsible for the attacks of October 7.
    No one here is claiming they are. I have seen no one on here say that there is any justification for attacking or abusing Jews living in Britain or anywhere else. What I have seen is people like Sandpit trying to claim that being anti-Zionist is the same as being anti-Semitic when clearly it is not.
    What I’m saying is that antisemites hide behind “anti-Zionism”, when most normal people don’t see the difference in those forms of words.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,523
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Nevertheless, Jews in the UK are not responsible for the actions of the State of Israel. Just as Muslims in the UK were not responsible for the attacks of October 7.
    No one here is claiming they are. I have seen no one on here say that there is any justification for attacking or abusing Jews living in Britain or anywhere else. What I have seen is people like Sandpit trying to claim that being anti-Zionist is the same as being anti-Semitic when clearly it is not.
    What I’m saying is that antisemites hide behind “anti-Zionism”, when most normal people don’t see the difference in those forms of words.
    In that case make that clear becuase there are plenty of people on here who you are smearing with your original post. Ignorance is no excuse.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,519
    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
    I believe an inter departmental enquiry was held, and a thorough holistic costing was done which arrived at the an extremely detailed answer. Which was: “absolutely shedloads”.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,523
    edited April 30
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    It is plain you don't understand what Zionism actually means. It is explicit in believing that the Jewish homeland should encompass all of the Palestine and should have as few non-Jews living in it as possible. It actively encourages ethnic cleansing and the seizing of lands well beyond what was agreed in 1948.

    No sane, reasonable person should deny the right of Israel to exist and the Jewish people to have a homeland. At the same time no sane, reasonable person should support the Zionist view of what this homeland should be and what it would mean for any non-Jews living there. We are seeing zionism in action in the West Bank settler movement. If you support that then you are as bad as the anti-Semites and other racists
    Zionism means different things to different people, surely.

    To some people, 'Zionism' refers to the right of the State of Israel to exist. To others, it refers -as you say- to the belief that Israel should encompass all the land from the river to the sea. (And -of course- there are many proponents of that version of Zionism in the current Israeli cabinet.)
    Well the original meaning was very clear when it was started. And the actions of successive Israeli Governments and those who advocate 'Zionism' have been equally clear. One reason why so many Jews would consider themselves 'anti-Zionist'.

    Edit: And as an aside if you look at the map of proposed Israel drawn up by the World Zionist Organisation for the 1919 Paris Peace Conference it goes well beyond 'from the river to the sea'.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,875
    "But it's hard to defend their creeping annexation of the West Bank".

    Actually, it's easy, if you think long term.

    Egypt came to believe that negotiating with Israel was in their best interest. They did, and got most of their land back. (They didn't want Gaza.)

    The PLO and Hamas refuse to negotiate with Israel. So, Israel slowly builds settlements, giving their enemies more and more reason to negotiate.

    (I assume that everyone understands that those settlements add to Israel's strategic depth.)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,782
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: The PM will address the nation from Downing Street in the next few minutes

    "I feel safer already!"
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,523
    edited April 30

    "But it's hard to defend their creeping annexation of the West Bank".

    Actually, it's easy, if you think long term.

    Egypt came to believe that negotiating with Israel was in their best interest. They did, and got most of their land back. (They didn't want Gaza.)

    The PLO and Hamas refuse to negotiate with Israel. So, Israel slowly builds settlements, giving their enemies more and more reason to negotiate.

    (I assume that everyone understands that those settlements add to Israel's strategic depth.)

    The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank did negotiate with Israel. And now they are paying the price of trusting them
  • MattW said:

    The original video (worth a watch) was because the Youtuber was not able to go more than the range of his battery because public charging facilities were not available for electric bicycles and mobility aids - so in his case he is limited to 15 miles out and 15 miles back, as it was a 30 mile battery.

    This is one of the reasons I bought a petrol scooter (the motorcycle kind) a few years ago and not an electric one. The electric models almost all used a standard 3-pin plug to charge and there were, at the time, precisely two compatible public chargers in the whole of west-central Scotland. With a 30-40 mile realistic range that rendered them almost completely useless to me.

    The Motorcycle Action Group recently organised an election hustings in Edinburgh where parties could send someone along to talk about bike related stuff. Only the SNP and the SCONs bothered to show up, but it was interesting to hear the SNP's Stuart Hosie (who is a biker himself) admit that electric motorcycles and scooters are not good enough and the government shouldn't try to force their adoption.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,871
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: The PM will address the nation from Downing Street in the next few minutes

    Have we ever seen a custom Starmer Podium?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,782
    edited April 30

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    "Germany is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Germany is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s an Anglo-Saxon plutocratic obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise, but the whole point of Germany is to be a self haven for GERMANS.

    That doesn’t mean Germany should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Germany wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Germany."
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491

    "But it's hard to defend their creeping annexation of the West Bank".

    Actually, it's easy, if you think long term.

    Egypt came to believe that negotiating with Israel was in their best interest. They did, and got most of their land back. (They didn't want Gaza.)

    The PLO and Hamas refuse to negotiate with Israel. So, Israel slowly builds settlements, giving their enemies more and more reason to negotiate.

    (I assume that everyone understands that those settlements add to Israel's strategic depth.)

    That's not really true: the Palestinian Authority, run by Fatah, has attempted to negotiate with Israel.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,509

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: The PM will address the nation from Downing Street in the next few minutes

    Have we ever seen a custom Starmer Podium?
    Just in case, I cashed out my lay of "Starmer leaving in 2026" at a modest loss !!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,035

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    "Germany is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Germany is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s an Anglo-Saxon plutocratic obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise, but the whole point of Germany is to be a self haven for GERMANS.

    That doesn’t mean Germany should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Germany wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Germany."
    I am 14 and this is deep
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,902

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    What ‘race’ are these guys?

    https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/200-bnei-menashe-immigrate-to-israel-from-india-the-first-to-make-the-journey-in-years/#:~:text=Under%20the%20operation%2C%20titled%20“Wings,of%20the%20community%20—%20by%202030.

    Or these?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55171742
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,509

    MattW said:

    The original video (worth a watch) was because the Youtuber was not able to go more than the range of his battery because public charging facilities were not available for electric bicycles and mobility aids - so in his case he is limited to 15 miles out and 15 miles back, as it was a 30 mile battery.

    This is one of the reasons I bought a petrol scooter (the motorcycle kind) a few years ago and not an electric one. The electric models almost all used a standard 3-pin plug to charge and there were, at the time, precisely two compatible public chargers in the whole of west-central Scotland. With a 30-40 mile realistic range that rendered them almost completely useless to me.

    The Motorcycle Action Group recently organised an election hustings in Edinburgh where parties could send someone along to talk about bike related stuff. Only the SNP and the SCONs bothered to show up, but it was interesting to hear the SNP's Stuart Hosie (who is a biker himself) admit that electric motorcycles and scooters are not good enough and the government shouldn't try to force their adoption.
    I follow their chair on Youtube, especially about who gets to go in bus lanes.

    He gets quite aeriated sometimes :smile: .
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,035

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    What ‘race’ are these guys?

    https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/200-bnei-menashe-immigrate-to-israel-from-india-the-first-to-make-the-journey-in-years/#:~:text=Under%20the%20operation%2C%20titled%20“Wings,of%20the%20community%20—%20by%202030.

    Or these?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55171742
    Jews?
  • MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The original video (worth a watch) was because the Youtuber was not able to go more than the range of his battery because public charging facilities were not available for electric bicycles and mobility aids - so in his case he is limited to 15 miles out and 15 miles back, as it was a 30 mile battery.

    This is one of the reasons I bought a petrol scooter (the motorcycle kind) a few years ago and not an electric one. The electric models almost all used a standard 3-pin plug to charge and there were, at the time, precisely two compatible public chargers in the whole of west-central Scotland. With a 30-40 mile realistic range that rendered them almost completely useless to me.

    The Motorcycle Action Group recently organised an election hustings in Edinburgh where parties could send someone along to talk about bike related stuff. Only the SNP and the SCONs bothered to show up, but it was interesting to hear the SNP's Stuart Hosie (who is a biker himself) admit that electric motorcycles and scooters are not good enough and the government shouldn't try to force their adoption.
    I follow their chair on Youtube, especially about who gets to go in bus lanes.

    He gets quite aeriated sometimes :smile: .
    Yes, he does! To be fair, bikers get very frustrated because a few quite simple changes would make their lives a lot easier but nobody in government is interested at all.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,509
    edited April 30
    My photo today is a Trainee Bus Driver in Paris.


    Obviously he's a former competitor in the Bognor Bird Man competition.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2pyxpwmdro
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,782

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    What ‘race’ are these guys?

    https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/200-bnei-menashe-immigrate-to-israel-from-india-the-first-to-make-the-journey-in-years/#:~:text=Under%20the%20operation%2C%20titled%20“Wings,of%20the%20community%20—%20by%202030.

    Or these?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55171742
    Jews?
    Independence Day the Movie:

    Sec. Nimzicki: "I'm not Jewish!"
    Julius Levinson: "Nobody's perfect!"
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,902

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    What ‘race’ are these guys?

    https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/200-bnei-menashe-immigrate-to-israel-from-india-the-first-to-make-the-journey-in-years/#:~:text=Under%20the%20operation%2C%20titled%20“Wings,of%20the%20community%20—%20by%202030.

    Or these?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55171742
    Jews?
    I suppose a racist state based on a fairy story concocted by some stoned goat herders 3000 years ago is bound to be somewhat incoherent.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,779
    How the mighty have fallen

    https://www.patreon.com/cw/kermodeandmayo
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,542

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    What ‘race’ are these guys?

    https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/200-bnei-menashe-immigrate-to-israel-from-india-the-first-to-make-the-journey-in-years/#:~:text=Under%20the%20operation%2C%20titled%20“Wings,of%20the%20community%20—%20by%202030.

    Or these?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55171742
    Jews?
    I suppose a racist state based on a fairy story concocted by some stoned goat herders 3000 years ago is bound to be somewhat incoherent.
    But enough about Scotland…
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,875
    "That's not really true: the Palestinian Authority, run by Fatah, has attempted to negotiate with Israel."

    "Attempted to negotiate" is not the same as actually negotiating. When Bill Clinton left the White House, one of the things he told George W. Bush is that Bush should not waste much time in trying to get the PLO to actually negotiate, that he (Clinton) had tried, and made no progress.

    Reminder: The PLO and Hamas have been unable/unwilling to negotiate an agreement between the two organizations.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,035

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    What ‘race’ are these guys?

    https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/200-bnei-menashe-immigrate-to-israel-from-india-the-first-to-make-the-journey-in-years/#:~:text=Under%20the%20operation%2C%20titled%20“Wings,of%20the%20community%20—%20by%202030.

    Or these?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55171742
    Jews?
    I suppose a racist state based on a fairy story concocted by some stoned goat herders 3000 years ago is bound to be somewhat incoherent.
    What a completely arrogant and ignorant comment. Who are you to say who the jews consider to be jews?

    There is only one jewish state and why shouldn’t there be.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,726
    edited April 30
    viewcode said:
    Do we know if they walked or if they were pushed? I do remember Kermode chanting '10 more years' at some point just before Covid.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,146
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    A fascinating thing that should have been obvious. I admit I have not considered making this argument.

    All electrical car charging points should include a socket for charging electric cycles and mobility aids. Why was this not done anyway?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6IyukCIia8

    Great idea but we’d need portable electric bike charging leads too, preferably with a uniform end that plugs into the socket in the charging point.
    One example could be a 3 pin external socket. Most of us carry a chargers for use in eg cafes if we have detachable batteries. I get RCD protected doubles for about £25. The cost would be negligible if made a standard requirement for street-side or parking area chargers.

    it looks like a basic legal requirement under "Equal provision of services" law, which has been in place for more than 3 decades.

    It feels to me to be one that has just not been thought about - a blindspot. I'm embarrassed that I had not copped this one.

    It would cause mental explosions amongst the "roads are for motor vehicles" brigade, but that's just something that happens whatever you do. A person using a mobility scooter is an equally important traveller as a person in a motor vehicle (and in law arguably a more entitled road user).
    Back from my walk in the park. It’s lush. It’s changed a bit in the last year. I’m going for a cycle round it tomorrow. New paths and paving over the old mud ones.

    Would also need a way to ensure the cable could not be detached from the charge point and battery by some little chav.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,892

    Interesting thread on War Bonds:

    Stewart Wood
    @StewartWood

    The idea of removing defence spending from the scope of fiscal rules is gaining traction. Andy Burnham mentioned it yesterday (“There’s certainly a case, when we look at the pressure on defence spending, to consider that exceptionally outside of the rules”). What might this mean?

    https://x.com/StewartWood/status/2049824854321316146

    I vaguely recall a Chancellor called Kwarteng who sought to put expenditure subsidising gas prices outwith measured expenditure without any clear understanding what that cost might amount to. My recollection is that didn’t go terribly well and the market reaction cost him and his boss their jobs.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,523

    "That's not really true: the Palestinian Authority, run by Fatah, has attempted to negotiate with Israel."

    "Attempted to negotiate" is not the same as actually negotiating. When Bill Clinton left the White House, one of the things he told George W. Bush is that Bush should not waste much time in trying to get the PLO to actually negotiate, that he (Clinton) had tried, and made no progress.

    Reminder: The PLO and Hamas have been unable/unwilling to negotiate an agreement between the two organizations.

    Again there was negotiation. That is how the Palestinian Authority came into being. And now Israel have decided they want the West Bank and are going to take it irrespective of the wishes of the inhabitants. Who the hell would ever trust Israel after what they have done over the last 2 decades?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,585
    Just one by election to close play before the locals.
    A Tory defence in Malvern.
    Will be interesting to see how the Green vote holds up.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,892
    MattW said:

    My photo today is a Trainee Bus Driver in Paris.


    Obviously he's a former competitor in the Bognor Bird Man competition.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2pyxpwmdro

    I think that’s a fail but I’m maybe being a little harsh.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,460
    MattW said:

    My photo today is a Trainee Bus Driver in Paris.


    Obviously he's a former competitor in the Bognor Bird Man competition.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2pyxpwmdro

    French sequel to "The Italian Job"?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491

    "That's not really true: the Palestinian Authority, run by Fatah, has attempted to negotiate with Israel."

    "Attempted to negotiate" is not the same as actually negotiating. When Bill Clinton left the White House, one of the things he told George W. Bush is that Bush should not waste much time in trying to get the PLO to actually negotiate, that he (Clinton) had tried, and made no progress.

    Reminder: The PLO and Hamas have been unable/unwilling to negotiate an agreement between the two organizations.

    Well yes: Hamas has the explicit goal of the elimination of Israel. Fatah, by contrast, backs a two State solution.

    Anyone who thinks that the current Israeli government has any interest in a two State solution is -I believe- quite deluded.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,287
    Sandpit said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
    and what would be the point?
    To get from Fishguard to Bangor within Wales, rather than going to England and up the M5.
    Funny how the debate about Welsh transport is so similar to that in Scotland. Insanely costly and bonkers plans to build giant infrastructure projects the entire length of a mountainous country.

    You’d get much more bang for your buck by improving local connections. E.g. a bypass for Nairn, or a metro system in and around Cardiff/Swansea/Newport. 90% of spending should be within TTWAs.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,892

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    "Germany is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Germany is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s an Anglo-Saxon plutocratic obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise, but the whole point of Germany is to be a self haven for GERMANS.

    That doesn’t mean Germany should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Germany wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Germany."
    I am 14 and this is deep
    Or as Bob put it:
    Though they murdered 6 million
    In the ovens they fried
    The Germans now too
    Have God on their side.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,287
    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    My photo today is a Trainee Bus Driver in Paris.


    Obviously he's a former competitor in the Bognor Bird Man competition.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2pyxpwmdro

    I think that’s a fail but I’m maybe being a little harsh.
    If they swerved to avoid a primary school class? Pass.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,563

    MattW said:

    My photo today is a Trainee Bus Driver in Paris.


    Obviously he's a former competitor in the Bognor Bird Man competition.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2pyxpwmdro

    Top marks for effort there.

    Many would have done that half-in-half-out thing, with the bus at a silly angle. This one’s properly in the river.
    Yes, it must have been going at some speed!
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,256

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    It's not even relevant. People have a right to go about their business unmolested while also being visibly Jewish.
    Doesn't the same go for women. Being allowed to walk the streets without being harassed. Or women with partners who have the right not to suffer domestic violence. While anti-(insert your choice here) behaviour is widespread in the UK and elsewhere, there should be far more done to protect women.

    Wish everyone here was as agitated about domestic situations without spending endless hours debating the rights and wrongs on Middle Eastern politics.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,892
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    My photo today is a Trainee Bus Driver in Paris.


    Obviously he's a former competitor in the Bognor Bird Man competition.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2pyxpwmdro

    I think that’s a fail but I’m maybe being a little harsh.
    If they swerved to avoid a primary school class? Pass.
    Very true.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,959
    The suspect in the Golders Green terror attack has been named as Essa Suleiman, a Somali-born British man who was jailed for stabbing a police officer and his dog.

    Suleiman, who at one stage lived in Camberwell, south-east London, was arrested on Wednesday after two Jewish men were stabbed near a synagogue in the north of the capital.

    The 45-year-old had previously been jailed indefinitely for stabbing PC Neil Sampson in January 2008.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,509
    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    A fascinating thing that should have been obvious. I admit I have not considered making this argument.

    All electrical car charging points should include a socket for charging electric cycles and mobility aids. Why was this not done anyway?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6IyukCIia8

    Great idea but we’d need portable electric bike charging leads too, preferably with a uniform end that plugs into the socket in the charging point.
    One example could be a 3 pin external socket. Most of us carry a chargers for use in eg cafes if we have detachable batteries. I get RCD protected doubles for about £25. The cost would be negligible if made a standard requirement for street-side or parking area chargers.

    it looks like a basic legal requirement under "Equal provision of services" law, which has been in place for more than 3 decades.

    It feels to me to be one that has just not been thought about - a blindspot. I'm embarrassed that I had not copped this one.

    It would cause mental explosions amongst the "roads are for motor vehicles" brigade, but that's just something that happens whatever you do. A person using a mobility scooter is an equally important traveller as a person in a motor vehicle (and in law arguably a more entitled road user).
    Back from my walk in the park. It’s lush. It’s changed a bit in the last year. I’m going for a cycle round it tomorrow. New paths and paving over the old mud ones.

    Would also need a way to ensure the cable could not be detached from the charge point and battery by some little chav.
    Yes, but that is also the case for car chargers, and they have mechanisms that autolock the plug to the socket.

    My £25 external double sockets all come with a loop I can put a padlock on.

    There are actually quite a number of car charging setups around the UK with a 13pin connector eg Zapmap shows 6 in Nottingham, so they must have some mechanism.

    At the Bosch cycle charging stations on the NCN and at the National Trust, they seem to have a storage locker with the charging in it where you put your battery, having taken it off the bike.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,146
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    "Germany is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Germany is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s an Anglo-Saxon plutocratic obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise, but the whole point of Germany is to be a self haven for GERMANS.

    That doesn’t mean Germany should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Germany wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Germany."
    I am 14 and this is deep
    Or as Bob put it:
    Though they murdered 6 million
    In the ovens they fried
    The Germans now too
    Have God on their side.
    Hitler was just a paper hanger
    No one more obscurer.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,865
    https://x.com/hoffman_noa/status/2049872483105288442

    EXCL: Wes Streeting has the numbers and is ready to go should a leadership race kick off after locals, friends and allies of the Health Sec tell me

    * They say he has the numbers in the PLP

    * On the briefings that he is tainted by Mandelson, an ally says: ‘What rumour could be worse than a tax-dodger?’
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,902

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    What ‘race’ are these guys?

    https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/200-bnei-menashe-immigrate-to-israel-from-india-the-first-to-make-the-journey-in-years/#:~:text=Under%20the%20operation%2C%20titled%20“Wings,of%20the%20community%20—%20by%202030.

    Or these?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55171742
    Jews?
    I suppose a racist state based on a fairy story concocted by some stoned goat herders 3000 years ago is bound to be somewhat incoherent.
    But enough about Scotland…
    You English will never get over Scotland being the older country.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,509

    MattW said:

    My photo today is a Trainee Bus Driver in Paris.


    Obviously he's a former competitor in the Bognor Bird Man competition.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2pyxpwmdro

    French sequel to "The Italian Job"?
    I was thinking the Fiat advert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNPTlT8HXjk
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689

    The suspect in the Golders Green terror attack has been named as Essa Suleiman, a Somali-born British man who was jailed for stabbing a police officer and his dog.

    Suleiman, who at one stage lived in Camberwell, south-east London, was arrested on Wednesday after two Jewish men were stabbed near a synagogue in the north of the capital.

    The 45-year-old had previously been jailed indefinitely for stabbing PC Neil Sampson in January 2008.

    If he was jailed indefinitely 18 years ago, why was he back on the street?

    Also, when exactly did he become British?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,902

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    What ‘race’ are these guys?

    https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/200-bnei-menashe-immigrate-to-israel-from-india-the-first-to-make-the-journey-in-years/#:~:text=Under%20the%20operation%2C%20titled%20“Wings,of%20the%20community%20—%20by%202030.

    Or these?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55171742
    Jews?
    I suppose a racist state based on a fairy story concocted by some stoned goat herders 3000 years ago is bound to be somewhat incoherent.
    What a completely arrogant and ignorant comment. Who are you to say who the jews consider to be jews?

    There is only one jewish state and why shouldn’t there be.
    You’re a bit touchy for someone who thinks it’s fine that Israel is a racist state, and why shouldn’t it be.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,959
    Sandpit said:

    The suspect in the Golders Green terror attack has been named as Essa Suleiman, a Somali-born British man who was jailed for stabbing a police officer and his dog.

    Suleiman, who at one stage lived in Camberwell, south-east London, was arrested on Wednesday after two Jewish men were stabbed near a synagogue in the north of the capital.

    The 45-year-old had previously been jailed indefinitely for stabbing PC Neil Sampson in January 2008.

    If he was jailed indefinitely 18 years ago, why was he back on the street?

    Also, when exactly did he become British?
    A judge ruled that Suleiman should serve at least four and a half years for grievous bodily harm and only be considered for release when he was no longer a risk to the public.

    He was jailed under an imprisonment for public protection (IPP) sentence, which forces dangerous offenders to serve a minimum tariff before their release is considered by a parole board. IPPs sentenced were introduced by Labour in 2005 before they were abolished by the coalition government in 2012.

    Referred to Prevent in 2020, deemed no threat a year later.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,959
    edited April 30
    I find it very odd on the BBC website, they are blurring the guys face on some images / clips and then show his face clearly on others. I can't work out what the logic is. Or when the policy of UK media changed to even considering blurring of faces of individuals involved in a crime and is not some sort of undercover sting that is ongoing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,378

    https://x.com/hoffman_noa/status/2049872483105288442

    EXCL: Wes Streeting has the numbers and is ready to go should a leadership race kick off after locals, friends and allies of the Health Sec tell me

    * They say he has the numbers in the PLP

    * On the briefings that he is tainted by Mandelson, an ally says: ‘What rumour could be worse than a tax-dodger?’

    "should a race kick off"??

    Someone has to start a race in this case unless Starmer resigns which is not going to.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,035

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    What ‘race’ are these guys?

    https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/200-bnei-menashe-immigrate-to-israel-from-india-the-first-to-make-the-journey-in-years/#:~:text=Under%20the%20operation%2C%20titled%20“Wings,of%20the%20community%20—%20by%202030.

    Or these?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55171742
    Jews?
    I suppose a racist state based on a fairy story concocted by some stoned goat herders 3000 years ago is bound to be somewhat incoherent.
    What a completely arrogant and ignorant comment. Who are you to say who the jews consider to be jews?

    There is only one jewish state and why shouldn’t there be.
    You’re a bit touchy for someone who thinks it’s fine that Israel is a racist state, and why shouldn’t it be.
    I didn’t say it was “fine” as such. I just don’t think that it helps to dance around the point.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,959

    https://x.com/hoffman_noa/status/2049872483105288442

    EXCL: Wes Streeting has the numbers and is ready to go should a leadership race kick off after locals, friends and allies of the Health Sec tell me

    * They say he has the numbers in the PLP

    * On the briefings that he is tainted by Mandelson, an ally says: ‘What rumour could be worse than a tax-dodger?’

    "should a race kick off"??

    Someone has to start a race in this case unless Starmer resigns which is not going to.
    Is this going to be like Gordo all over again, they are going to get rid, their is a coup in the offering, they are saying after you, no after, no after you, look at my banana, we all back Gordon, he is the right man for the job.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,871

    https://x.com/hoffman_noa/status/2049872483105288442

    EXCL: Wes Streeting has the numbers and is ready to go should a leadership race kick off after locals, friends and allies of the Health Sec tell me

    * They say he has the numbers in the PLP

    * On the briefings that he is tainted by Mandelson, an ally says: ‘What rumour could be worse than a tax-dodger?’

    This announcement is brought to the by the "ah, Starmer may be bad, but let's stick with him a bit longer" campaign.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,542

    https://x.com/hoffman_noa/status/2049872483105288442

    EXCL: Wes Streeting has the numbers and is ready to go should a leadership race kick off after locals, friends and allies of the Health Sec tell me

    * They say he has the numbers in the PLP

    * On the briefings that he is tainted by Mandelson, an ally says: ‘What rumour could be worse than a tax-dodger?’

    "should a race kick off"??

    Someone has to start a race in this case unless Starmer resigns which is not going to.
    Is this going to be like Gordo all over again, they are going to get rid, their is a coup in the offering, they are saying after you, no after, no after you, look at my banana, we all back Gordon, he is the right man for the job.
    Yes, it is.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,146
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    A fascinating thing that should have been obvious. I admit I have not considered making this argument.

    All electrical car charging points should include a socket for charging electric cycles and mobility aids. Why was this not done anyway?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6IyukCIia8

    Great idea but we’d need portable electric bike charging leads too, preferably with a uniform end that plugs into the socket in the charging point.
    One example could be a 3 pin external socket. Most of us carry a chargers for use in eg cafes if we have detachable batteries. I get RCD protected doubles for about £25. The cost would be negligible if made a standard requirement for street-side or parking area chargers.

    it looks like a basic legal requirement under "Equal provision of services" law, which has been in place for more than 3 decades.

    It feels to me to be one that has just not been thought about - a blindspot. I'm embarrassed that I had not copped this one.

    It would cause mental explosions amongst the "roads are for motor vehicles" brigade, but that's just something that happens whatever you do. A person using a mobility scooter is an equally important traveller as a person in a motor vehicle (and in law arguably a more entitled road user).
    Back from my walk in the park. It’s lush. It’s changed a bit in the last year. I’m going for a cycle round it tomorrow. New paths and paving over the old mud ones.

    Would also need a way to ensure the cable could not be detached from the charge point and battery by some little chav.
    Yes, but that is also the case for car chargers, and they have mechanisms that autolock the plug to the socket.

    My £25 external double sockets all come with a loop I can put a padlock on.

    There are actually quite a number of car charging setups around the UK with a 13pin connector eg Zapmap shows 6 in Nottingham, so they must have some mechanism.

    At the Bosch cycle charging stations on the NCN and at the National Trust, they seem to have a storage locker with the charging in it where you put your battery, having taken it off the bike.
    My electric bike is a Carrera and my plug in charger has no mechanism to stop it being withdrawn when charging

    That Bosch cycle charging station sounds ideal for circumventing that issue.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,959
    edited April 30
    The prime minister references behaviour at pro-Palestinian marches, saying that while "of course" the UK protects freedom of speech, "if you are marching with people wearing pictures of paragliders without calling it out, you are venerating the murder of Jews," he says. He adds: "If you are standing alongside people saying 'globalise the intifada', you are calling for terrorism against Jews." Starmer says that people who use that phrase "should be prosecuted", as it is "extreme racism".

    Some of pointed this out a long time ago.....but we got the plod pinhead dancing about Jihad having different meanings and arresting the Iranian bloke who holding a sign saying Hamas are terrorists.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,653
    edited April 30

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    It is plain you don't understand what Zionism actually means. It is explicit in believing that the Jewish homeland should encompass all of the Palestine and should have as few non-Jews living in it as possible. It actively encourages ethnic cleansing and the seizing of lands well beyond what was agreed in 1948.

    No sane, reasonable person should deny the right of Israel to exist and the Jewish people to have a homeland. At the same time no sane, reasonable person should support the Zionist view of what this homeland should be and what it would mean for any non-Jews living there. We are seeing zionism in action in the West Bank settler movement. If you support that then you are as bad as the anti-Semites and other racists
    Zionism means different things to different people, surely.

    To some people, 'Zionism' refers to the right of the State of Israel to exist. To others, it refers -as you say- to the belief that Israel should encompass all the land from the river to the sea. (And -of course- there are many proponents of that version of Zionism in the current Israeli cabinet.)
    Well the original meaning was very clear when it was started. And the actions of successive Israeli Governments and those who advocate 'Zionism' have been equally clear. One reason why so many Jews would consider themselves 'anti-Zionist'.

    Edit: And as an aside if you look at the map of proposed Israel drawn up by the World Zionist Organisation for the 1919 Paris Peace Conference it goes well beyond 'from the river to the sea'.
    I'm not sure that's true.

    The original term for what you describe is actually closest to Revisionist Zionism (one of several competing ideologies), as developed by Ze'ev Jabotinsky:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism

    Of course the various Zionist ideologies were developed between the wars, or even earlier, during times when both Communism and Fascism were also seen as credible political theories, so were prone to comparably unrealistic expectations and impracticalities.
    What Zionism means today is different - and equally contested.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,519
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    Sandpit said:

    welshowl said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    So why is Wales so different from Scotland? Longer time joined to England? Better appreciation of economic reality?

    Well I think I’m right in saying that Welsh gdp per head is about 75% of the U.K. average. That’s about Slovakia/Portugal levels and is in itself before you took off back office U.K. jobs like the DVLA in Swansea, Companies House in Cardiff, Stats and Patent offices in Newport, the Army in Brecon, the RAF on Anglesey etc etc and the transfers to level benefits and pensions to U.K. levels. In other words it makes a full fat five years of Zack Polanski govt in Westminster look like a mild cold compared to bubonic plague.

    And that’s before we get to the Euro/Sterling, EU/English single market questions.

    Oddly the much healthier position of the Welsh language could provide a drag with latent suspicions that everyone would be made to convert ( wouldn’t happen in reality, but it’s a question that doesn’t even arise in Scotland given about 1% speak Gaelic).

    Interestingly too about 30% of the population is not born in Wales ( overwhelmingly in England) and I’d guess two thirds of the population lives within an hour of the English border, so the obvious integration with England runs deeper than Scotland.
    On your last point: Wales is better linked to England than it is to itself. It is much easier to get from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester than it is to Cardiff. And from South Wales to Bristol and London than to Wrexham or Holyhead.
    This isn't really true of Scotland, which is a more coherent economic unit.
    That doesn't necessarily affect feelings of nationhood, but it probably does affect how people feel about going it alone as a country.
    Yes I think that’s right. For example, Newport saw a 9% population increase at the last census, the biggest in Wales, with a considerable proportion likely being Bristolians seeing how much further the money goes there, whilst having toll free commuting travel these days across the Severn. Manchester is about 1 hr 15 from Wrexham too, whilst Cardiff is probably 5 hours from Holyhead.

    Yet none of that is going to stop anyone equally draping themselves in a dragon to watch rugby or football be they in Cowbridge or Caersws.

    Therein lies Plaid’s ultimate conundrum.
    Well, Labour have failed in nearly thirty years of running Welsh government to improve transport links between North and South Wales, so I guess that would be an obvious place for Plaid to start.
    How much would it cost to dual the A487 from Fishguard to Bangor?
    and what would be the point?
    To get from Fishguard to Bangor within Wales, rather than going to England and up the M5.
    Funny how the debate about Welsh transport is so similar to that in Scotland. Insanely costly and bonkers plans to build giant infrastructure projects the entire length of a mountainous country.

    You’d get much more bang for your buck by improving local connections. E.g. a bypass for Nairn, or a metro system in and around Cardiff/Swansea/Newport. 90% of spending should be within TTWAs.
    Yes this is not unreasonable at all, and realistic in a way that a motorway from Caernarfon to Merthyr just isn’t. In fairness there are plans to stitch together various local lines and call it a South Wales “metro”, sort of covering Cardiff and up the valleys a bit, but it’s all a bit half hearted. In truth, the geography is pretty brutal, there are, I think, 22 valleys (someone correct me) from Swansea to Pontypool with 3-400m tops or more and 200m floors. It just doesn’t lend itself to inter communication like the Jubilee line, or the Mildmay and its siblings.

    What is fixable, and the cause of irritation, is that due to an apparent foul up when rebuilding Cardiff bus station ( 8 (!) years in the making) there isn’t enough bus stop capacity at the station, so loads of buses don’t go to it, meaning getting from one side of the Welsh capital to the other and back of an evening on public transport is in the “just forget it” category, and if you’re not a local, you’ll probably need a search party to find you, as you exhaust yourself pounding the streets mournfully seeking the correct bus stop.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,809

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    What exactly is the government supposed to do re anti-Semitism?

    Unless you ban the internet and bring in the thought police! And it was pretty disgraceful to have a crowd calling Starmer a traitor for not being able to stop a problem which is impossible to stop .

    They can use the bully pulpit of office to be very clear that anti-Semitism is unacceptable and make sure that the police enforce this by arresting those with anti-Semetic signs and slogans at the various protests. In fairness, I thought the Home Secretary was good about that this morning on Today but it needs consistent messaging and action, not some soft words in the face of a particular tragedy. Too many in Labour are more concerned with winning back the votes of the Muslim population than they are about right and wrong.

    I have been very critical of Israel's actions in Gaza, the West Bank and now Iran. But genocidal policies by the Israeli government is no excuse for anti-Sematism here. This isn't complicated and we need to be clear and loud about it.
    I am in most of my views leftish-liberal, but I really despair at the equivocations around antisemitism from so many on the left. If you can't condemn antisemitism without some mealy-mouthed qualification concerning Israel and Zionism, frankly I don't give any credence to your claims to be an anti-racist.
    Critisise “The government of Israel” or “Netanyahu and his supporters”, absolutely fair.

    As soon as people start talking about “Zionism”, it’s plainly clear to most normies what they actually mean.
    The problem with limiting criticisms to the “The government of Israel” and “Netanyahu and his supporters" is that they have over time moulded the State of Israel in their image. Palestians living in what is legally Israel now have massively inferior rights to those of Jews, in what shorn of its religious veneer is effectively a racist state. Even worse is the plight of Palestinians in the territories that Israel is quite content to occupy in a perpetual limbo, what would have been the bantustans of South Africa representing a very real parallel with the occupied territories today, the planned culmination of apartheid that South Africa eventually turned its back on. Israel, the state, has effectively permanently suppered the creation of a parallel Palestinian state. So criticism of the State of Israel itself should be quite legitimate, because of what it has turned into during the 30 years following Rabin's assassination.

    It's also of relevance that a majority of Israelis seem to be quite content with this tyrannical state of affairs, tyranny but not even of the majority given that they are in a minority over the territories Israel occupies. The fact that they are Jews does not render criticism of their collective support for their government's actions as anti-semitic, even though Israel and its supporters repeatedly try to play that card.
    Israel is quite literally a racist state. That’s the whole point of it. Israel is either a racist state or it is nothing.

    It’s a western liberal obsession that every nation must be a multicultural paradise but the whole point of Israel is to be a self haven for jews.

    That doesn’t mean Israel should be waging war on its neighbours, oppressing minorities or committing war crimes, which they are, but if Israel wasn’t racist then it wouldn’t be Israel.
    What ‘race’ are these guys?

    https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/200-bnei-menashe-immigrate-to-israel-from-india-the-first-to-make-the-journey-in-years/#:~:text=Under%20the%20operation%2C%20titled%20“Wings,of%20the%20community%20—%20by%202030.

    Or these?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-55171742
    Jews?
    I suppose a racist state based on a fairy story concocted by some stoned goat herders 3000 years ago is bound to be somewhat incoherent.
    But enough about Scotland…
    You English will never get over Scotland being the older country.
    I wasn't aware of the precise date, I assume they are fairly close, within a century.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,146
    Actually, @MattW, I’d not considered the battery can be removed to charge. Makes it a lot easier.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,809
    Sandpit said:

    The suspect in the Golders Green terror attack has been named as Essa Suleiman, a Somali-born British man who was jailed for stabbing a police officer and his dog.

    Suleiman, who at one stage lived in Camberwell, south-east London, was arrested on Wednesday after two Jewish men were stabbed near a synagogue in the north of the capital.

    The 45-year-old had previously been jailed indefinitely for stabbing PC Neil Sampson in January 2008.

    If he was jailed indefinitely 18 years ago, why was he back on the street?

    Well, indefinite presumably means without a definite length, which can mean unlimited but is not necessarily the case. I assume most people jailed indefinitely get out at some point, but I'm curious how they assess bringing an end to an indefinite punishment.
This discussion has been closed.