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Cutting taxes can be not putting them up as much says Nigel Farage – politicalbetting.com

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  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,805

    https://x.com/FaytuksNetwork/status/2031455260355493949

    Israel’s Prime Minister’s Office says that in the coming days conditions will be created for the Iranian people to “grasp your destiny,” adding that when “the time is right, and that time is fast approaching,” the torch will be passed to them to “seize the moment.”

    Rolling the pitch
    But, for what exactly?
    Trump saying “Eff this, I’m bored”
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,676

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    We are Belgium with nukes.
    So where's all the nice chocolate?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,805
    dixiedean said:

    This is turning into a complete clusterf--k isn't it?

    Bombing and the killing of most of the leadership hasn't caused capitulation.
    US and Israel don't seem to be on the same page re war aims.
    Straits closed meaning economic chaos.
    No rally around the flag in US. Quite the opposite.
    A senile President. A psychopath in the State Department.
    Israeli focus shifting to Lebanon.
    Nuclear materials still at large under Regime control.

    Logical next step is invasion. Isn't it? Or declare a victory which no-one is willing to buy.

    Still. Epstein, eh?

    Rubio? Or do you mean Hegseth?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,502

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Channel 4 have found an Iranian spokesperson who is a University professor. A wise old man who sits in a chair and opines. He reminds me of my late Grandfather! He's even got his accent! A very impressive man. Quite a contrast to the juveniles who are speaking for the US at the moment. I think he could become a bit of a cult figure. He's like the old man in the old man and the sea.

    I think it was the beard. If Pete Hegseth had a beard he'd look older and wiser too - until he opened his mouth. But, yes, Hegseth with a beard and not saying anything, that would be a huge improvement on the US war comms front.
    Hegseth comes across as very excited by the carnage. Like a kindergarten kid receiving his first GI Joe doll.
    Yes, it's an 'Epic Fury' computer game as per the stuff they're putting out. So far missing the bit where the girls school was obliterated with maximum intensity but I suppose it will be in the next release. I wonder what the music will be for that. Very stirring no doubt.
    Earlier today, writers in both the Guardian and- wait for it- the Telegraph referred to the current adventure as "Operation Epic Failure".
    Surely "Epstein Failure"?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,107
    edited March 10
    Tonight's summary. The US Energy Sec pretended convoys were going through the Straits of Hormuz, but it turns out the place is riddled with mines. The US Navy doesn't like mines and doesn't want anything to do them, so removed the remaining, admittedly long in the tooth, minesweepers from the region in January, while "planning' (in the loose sense of that word) the attacks.

    All going swimmingly.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,012
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    Good luck with that on the front of a manifesto.
    In some ways its easier to implement if everyone loses out as it reduces the resentment from those who lose out but see others not doing so.

    We're all in this together was a good slogan from Cameron and Osborne - the problem was that it was only a slogan and many were given exceptions from the cuts and pay freezes.

  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,463
    Law show on R4 discussing the changes to trial by jury. Someone (Chris Kinch KC?) pointing out that under the proposed system it will be the Judge heading off to review the evidence and contemplate their verdict, rather than it being the Jury, while the Judge gets on with the next case.
    Interesting discussion
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 31,618

    dixiedean said:

    This is turning into a complete clusterf--k isn't it?

    Bombing and the killing of most of the leadership hasn't caused capitulation.
    US and Israel don't seem to be on the same page re war aims.
    Straits closed meaning economic chaos.
    No rally around the flag in US. Quite the opposite.
    A senile President. A psychopath in the State Department.
    Israeli focus shifting to Lebanon.
    Nuclear materials still at large under Regime control.

    Logical next step is invasion. Isn't it? Or declare a victory which no-one is willing to buy.

    Still. Epstein, eh?

    Rubio? Or do you mean Hegseth?
    Apologies. Hegseth of course.
    Rubio is just a kiss ass with no backbone.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 22,201

    dixiedean said:

    5-1.

    Spurs could literally be decimated at this rate.
    One in ten of them will be beaten to death by the other? Maybe. I think Mao Itoje was close to doing this on Saturday…
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,311
    ...
    Dopermean said:

    Law show on R4 discussing the changes to trial by jury. Someone (Chris Kinch KC?) pointing out that under the proposed system it will be the Judge heading off to review the evidence and contemplate their verdict, rather than it being the Jury, while the Judge gets on with the next case.
    Interesting discussion

    Not going to happen - thank goodness.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,719

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    Given the money that also needs to be found to spend on the Justice system, on critical national infrastructure (e.g. energy and transport), and doubtless other things, and the already precarious state of Britain's national finances, it has to be spending cuts and tax rises.

    And given the spending cuts already made by the Coalition, welfare spending on pensioners has to be in the mix.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,519
    Newcastle showing Spurs how to do it
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,973

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    Good luck with that on the front of a manifesto.
    In some ways its easier to implement if everyone loses out as it reduces the resentment from those who lose out but see others not doing so.

    We're all in this together was a good slogan from Cameron and Osborne - the problem was that it was only a slogan and many were given exceptions from the cuts and pay freezes.

    Alexei Sayle, once said: 'Austerity is the idea that the global financial crash of 2008 was caused by there being too many libraries in Wolverhampton.'

    Now that would have been a more appropriate slogan from Cameron and Osborne.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,617

    CatMan said:

    Bloody hell

    "US weighs sending forces into Iran to secure nuclear stockpile, reports say"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/mar/10/us-weighs-sending-forces-into-iran-to-secure-nuclear-stockpile-reports-say

    Good.
    "weighs" is doing a hell of a lot of work with this set of psycho clowns.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,617
    John Rentoul
    @JohnRentoul
    ·
    23m

    “It was almost as if, for the US president, lifting tariffs to their highest level since the 1930s was not enough to wreck the world economy, so more was needed” @dsmitheconomics

    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/2031481361467384042
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,463

    Leon said:

    Do the powers that be genuinely not see where this ends?


    "White males will have ‘fewer board seats’ in future, says UK diversity chair"

    Financial Times

    https://x.com/FT/status/2031160714484674567?s=20

    Let me tell them. The end result of all this is the creation of an aggressive "white" identity in the UK. If you are white, you will vote for the "White People's Party", so you are not crushed, nor your kids, by official "anti-white-racism". Thus Britain will become a new South Africa

    I am genuinely confused as to why so many erstwhile intelligent people fail to see that playing identity politics drives, err, identity politics.
    So moves to reduce the over-representation of white males on company boards (where they're doing an epic job judging from UK productivity) will result in a revolt of white males to maintain their current privileged position?

    Ex-lads mag journos with brains rotted by coke don't half lose the plot when they're over the hill and devoid of #metoo opportunities....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,592

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,806
    Who has the best minesweepers these days?
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,377

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    Well, people will be spending less on travel through Dubai.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,521
    I missed the Farage U-turn. So it's just Kemi the warmonger,

    "Go it alone Kemi!"
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,519
    Shame Newcastle give away a penalty in last seconds

    1 -1
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,145
    Scott_xP said:

    Who has the best minesweepers these days?

    Microsoft?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,805
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    This is turning into a complete clusterf--k isn't it?

    Bombing and the killing of most of the leadership hasn't caused capitulation.
    US and Israel don't seem to be on the same page re war aims.
    Straits closed meaning economic chaos.
    No rally around the flag in US. Quite the opposite.
    A senile President. A psychopath in the State Department.
    Israeli focus shifting to Lebanon.
    Nuclear materials still at large under Regime control.

    Logical next step is invasion. Isn't it? Or declare a victory which no-one is willing to buy.

    Still. Epstein, eh?

    Rubio? Or do you mean Hegseth?
    Apologies. Hegseth of course.
    Rubio is just a kiss ass with no backbone.
    Agree on Rubio. Not sure Hegseth is bright enough to be a psychopath - my take is he’s a drunken f*ckwit who thinks that war’s like playing a computer game
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,701
    Scott_xP said:

    Who has the best minesweepers these days?

    There are anti-mining drones, now.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,701
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    The average voter wants low taxes, lavish public services, and golden elephants, but tough tits. Leadership, if it means anything at all, means telling people hard truths.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,822
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    On one hand, practical politics says that you are right. It's why the average MAGAhat is isolationist, and it's what Rupert Lowe has been getting at. And "fiscal prudence that doesn't hurt me in any way" has been a winning manifesto for ages.

    On the other, it's why we're sinking giggling into the sea. Only without much giggling these days.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 70,519
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    In those narrow terms maybe not, but the governments first duty is to protect it's people and we are woefully prepared

    It is a problem of 30 years in the making, when we in common with Europe, assumed the US would take the costliest burden and now, not just us, but most every country in the west will have to prioritise defence spending which I expect will show in the polls
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,012
    edited March 10
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Who has the best minesweepers these days?

    There are anti-mining drones, now.
    I'm sure that Ukraine could supply the required equipment if the Gulf states are prepared to pay.

    Perhaps they should have a tax on influencers.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,313
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    Heres the problem

    What is defence?

    Tanks obsolete
    Infantry obsolete
    Ships sitting ducks
    Aeroplanes aka drones

    What are we defending against

    Cyber
    Germs

    The growing reality will be that you might not be able to defend

    Some things will be indefensible against

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,806
    "The U.S. Navy has refused near-daily requests from the shipping industry for military escorts through the Strait of Hormuz since the start of the war on Iran, saying the risk of attacks is too high for now."

    https://bsky.app/profile/noahshachtman.bsky.social/post/3mgqeimwijk2v
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,012
    edited March 10

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    Good luck with that on the front of a manifesto.
    In some ways its easier to implement if everyone loses out as it reduces the resentment from those who lose out but see others not doing so.

    We're all in this together was a good slogan from Cameron and Osborne - the problem was that it was only a slogan and many were given exceptions from the cuts and pay freezes.

    Alexei Sayle, once said: 'Austerity is the idea that the global financial crash of 2008 was caused by there being too many libraries in Wolverhampton.'

    Now that would have been a more appropriate slogan from Cameron and Osborne.
    Similarly Gordon Brown's 'end to boom and bust' was supposed to mean that we could all get rich selling houses to each other.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,617
    Scott_xP said:

    "The U.S. Navy has refused near-daily requests from the shipping industry for military escorts through the Strait of Hormuz since the start of the war on Iran, saying the risk of attacks is too high for now."

    https://bsky.app/profile/noahshachtman.bsky.social/post/3mgqeimwijk2v

    Hegseth Warrior 'Total War' Culture latest.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,973

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    Good luck with that on the front of a manifesto.
    In some ways its easier to implement if everyone loses out as it reduces the resentment from those who lose out but see others not doing so.

    We're all in this together was a good slogan from Cameron and Osborne - the problem was that it was only a slogan and many were given exceptions from the cuts and pay freezes.

    Alexei Sayle, once said: 'Austerity is the idea that the global financial crash of 2008 was caused by there being too many libraries in Wolverhampton.'

    Now that would have been a more appropriate slogan from Cameron and Osborne.

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    Good luck with that on the front of a manifesto.
    In some ways its easier to implement if everyone loses out as it reduces the resentment from those who lose out but see others not doing so.

    We're all in this together was a good slogan from Cameron and Osborne - the problem was that it was only a slogan and many were given exceptions from the cuts and pay freezes.

    Alexei Sayle, once said: 'Austerity is the idea that the global financial crash of 2008 was caused by there being too many libraries in Wolverhampton.'

    Now that would have been a more appropriate slogan from Cameron and Osborne.
    Similarly Gordon Brown's 'end to boom and bust' was supposed to mean that we could all get rich selling houses to each other.
    And we are still doing that today and Gordon Brown hasn't been Chancellor since 2007.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,973
    Watching BBC News, Sarah Smith is a disgrace to the name of her father. She is the worst at normalising the Trump madness.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,592
    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    Heres the problem

    What is defence?

    Tanks obsolete
    Infantry obsolete
    Ships sitting ducks
    Aeroplanes aka drones

    What are we defending against

    Cyber
    Germs

    The growing reality will be that you might not be able to defend

    Some things will be indefensible against

    At least cybersecurity improvements voters can see the direct results of by protecting what they view on their laptops and phones
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,973
    Operation Epstein Fury has worked like a Swiss watch. Searches for "Epstein Files" have fallen through the floor since Tehran was bombed.

    https://youtu.be/oSw1ZPqHNEU?si=T1EogRXqfu95poQG
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,012
    edited March 10



    And we are still doing that today and Gordon Brown hasn't been Chancellor since 2007.

    Why not ?

    Brown keeps resurfacing, looking more like the undead every time.

    Given that half the people I worked with at the time lost their jobs I'll keep a flicker of resentment glowing against the self-styled saviour of the world.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,806

    Operation Epstein Fury has worked like a Swiss watch. Searches for "Epstein Files" have fallen through the floor since Tehran was bombed.

    https://youtu.be/oSw1ZPqHNEU?si=T1EogRXqfu95poQG

    Epstein internet traffic has dropped off almost as fast as traffic in the Strait of Hormuz, am I right?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,973



    And we are still doing that today and Gordon Brown hasn't been Chancellor since 2007.

    Why not ?

    Brown keeps resurfacing, looking more like the undead every time.

    Given that half the people I worked with at the time lost their jobs I'll keep a flicker of resentment glowing against the self-styled saviour of the world.
    My sentence was very cumbersome. I was trying to say that economic activity is still predicated on house price inflation.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,387

    Leon said:

    Do the powers that be genuinely not see where this ends?


    "White males will have ‘fewer board seats’ in future, says UK diversity chair"

    Financial Times

    https://x.com/FT/status/2031160714484674567?s=20

    Let me tell them. The end result of all this is the creation of an aggressive "white" identity in the UK. If you are white, you will vote for the "White People's Party", so you are not crushed, nor your kids, by official "anti-white-racism". Thus Britain will become a new South Africa

    I am genuinely confused as to why so many erstwhile intelligent people fail to see that playing identity politics drives, err, identity politics.
    There is a whole industry in identity politics. And a whole industry in anti-identity politics. And another industry in anti-anti-identity politics. And…

    If you stopped all that, the rates of unemployment among angry protestors, commentators, lawyers etc would be fearful. You’d drop GDP by a couple of percent.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,387

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    We are Belgium with nukes.
    So where's all the nice chocolate?
    “… What's Belgium famous for? Chocolates and child abuse, and they only invented the chocolates to get to the kids.”
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,145
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,387
    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    Heres the problem

    What is defence?

    Tanks obsolete
    Infantry obsolete
    Ships sitting ducks
    Aeroplanes aka drones

    What are we defending against

    Cyber
    Germs

    The growing reality will be that you might not be able to defend

    Some things will be indefensible against

    Ships aren’t obsolete.
    Aircraft are very different to small drones.
    Infantry isn’t obsolete.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,313
    HYUFD said:

    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    Heres the problem

    What is defence?

    Tanks obsolete
    Infantry obsolete
    Ships sitting ducks
    Aeroplanes aka drones

    What are we defending against

    Cyber
    Germs

    The growing reality will be that you might not be able to defend

    Some things will be indefensible against

    At least cybersecurity improvements voters can see the direct results of by protecting what they view on their laptops and phones
    I agree

    I'm more concerned about things like

    Global Banking
    Atms
    Air Traffic Control
    Trains
    Road Signalling
    Any form of digital infrastructure
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,313

    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    Heres the problem

    What is defence?

    Tanks obsolete
    Infantry obsolete
    Ships sitting ducks
    Aeroplanes aka drones

    What are we defending against

    Cyber
    Germs

    The growing reality will be that you might not be able to defend

    Some things will be indefensible against

    Ships aren’t obsolete.
    Aircraft are very different to small drones.
    Infantry isn’t obsolete.
    They might be in 20 years

    The Ukraine War has proven how vulnerable aircraft and ships are in bases.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,463



    And we are still doing that today and Gordon Brown hasn't been Chancellor since 2007.

    Why not ?

    Brown keeps resurfacing, looking more like the undead every time.

    Given that half the people I worked with at the time lost their jobs I'll keep a flicker of resentment glowing against the self-styled saviour of the world.
    Were they in banking selling derivatives of derivatives of derivatives based on someone's domestic mortgage repayments and getting bonuses for doing so? If so they should have realized it was all a ponzi scheme, if not they have my sympathy.

    Still not Brown's fault that it all fell like the house of cards it turned out to be though, even if the UK had regulated to prevent the banks doing it in UK jurisdiction, they'd still have done it in the US and elsewhere bringing all the same economies down.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,387
    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    Heres the problem

    What is defence?

    Tanks obsolete
    Infantry obsolete
    Ships sitting ducks
    Aeroplanes aka drones

    What are we defending against

    Cyber
    Germs

    The growing reality will be that you might not be able to defend

    Some things will be indefensible against

    Ships aren’t obsolete.
    Aircraft are very different to small drones.
    Infantry isn’t obsolete.
    They might be in 20 years

    The Ukraine War has proven how vulnerable aircraft and ships are in bases.
    If you park your ships and aircraft at specific coordinates for long periods, they get hit by the enemy.

    Which has been known since WWI.

    The German FL boats of 1917 etc.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,330
    Scott_xP said:

    @fintwitter.bsky.social‬

    US INTELLIGENCE SOURCES SAY IRAN IS STARTING TO PLACE MINES IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, A KEY SHIPPING PATH, ACCORDING TO CBS NEWS.

    Oh my God! Who could have possibly foreseen this?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,021
    This is an interesting dynamic.

    The GOP media posting clips of Talarico as attacks on him. And he keeps replying, yes, I approve this message.

    JAMES TALARICO: “Christ is the immigrant deported without due process. Christ is the senior deprived of their Social Security benefits. Christ is the protestor kidnapped in an unmarked vehicle by plain clothes officers.”..
    https://x.com/NRSC/status/2031442594983498169

    It will be fascinating to see how it plays out.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,330

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    We are Belgium with nukes.
    I don’t see any Belgian ships in the area.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,855

    Scott_xP said:

    @fintwitter.bsky.social‬

    US INTELLIGENCE SOURCES SAY IRAN IS STARTING TO PLACE MINES IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, A KEY SHIPPING PATH, ACCORDING TO CBS NEWS.

    Oh my God! Who could have possibly foreseen this?
    I think this one is actually unexpected, because it’s an economically suicidal act by Iran on itself. It’s kind of the nuclear option.

    In fact Iran is perhaps demonstrating the closest a non nuclear power can get to firing nukes. It goes beyond Russia’s gas blackmail in 2022.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,145
    Nigelb said:

    This is an interesting dynamic.

    The GOP media posting clips of Talarico as attacks on him. And he keeps replying, yes, I approve this message.

    JAMES TALARICO: “Christ is the immigrant deported without due process. Christ is the senior deprived of their Social Security benefits. Christ is the protestor kidnapped in an unmarked vehicle by plain clothes officers.”..
    https://x.com/NRSC/status/2031442594983498169

    It will be fascinating to see how it plays out.

    I don't think being reminded of peak woke is great for the Democrats.

    https://x.com/jamestalarico/status/1258788884185518082

    White skin gives me and every white American immunity from the virus. But we spread it wherever we go—through our words, our actions, and our systems. We don’t have to be showing symptoms—like a white hood or a Confederate flag—to be contagious.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,012
    Dopermean said:



    And we are still doing that today and Gordon Brown hasn't been Chancellor since 2007.

    Why not ?

    Brown keeps resurfacing, looking more like the undead every time.

    Given that half the people I worked with at the time lost their jobs I'll keep a flicker of resentment glowing against the self-styled saviour of the world.
    Were they in banking selling derivatives of derivatives of derivatives based on someone's domestic mortgage repayments and getting bonuses for doing so? If so they should have realized it was all a ponzi scheme, if not they have my sympathy.

    Still not Brown's fault that it all fell like the house of cards it turned out to be though, even if the UK had regulated to prevent the banks doing it in UK jurisdiction, they'd still have done it in the US and elsewhere bringing all the same economies down.
    They were in a Yorkshire manufacturing business.

    And so didn't get any money sprayed in their direction as some London and Edinburgh based sectors did.

    I almost wrote 'bailout' but we never needed a bailout, some help might have been nice as we battled through while still paying taxes all the time.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,012



    And we are still doing that today and Gordon Brown hasn't been Chancellor since 2007.

    Why not ?

    Brown keeps resurfacing, looking more like the undead every time.

    Given that half the people I worked with at the time lost their jobs I'll keep a flicker of resentment glowing against the self-styled saviour of the world.
    My sentence was very cumbersome. I was trying to say that economic activity is still predicated on house price inflation.
    I think the sweet spot is house prices rising in nominal terms but falling in real terms.

    Leading to housing becoming more affordable but without the negative effects of negative equity.

    Such a sweet spot is easier to meet with inflation, and pay rises, at 5% than when they are at 2%.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,354

    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    Heres the problem

    What is defence?

    Tanks obsolete
    Infantry obsolete
    Ships sitting ducks
    Aeroplanes aka drones

    What are we defending against

    Cyber
    Germs

    The growing reality will be that you might not be able to defend

    Some things will be indefensible against

    Ships aren’t obsolete.
    Aircraft are very different to small drones.
    Infantry isn’t obsolete.
    "What a waste of good infantry!"
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,007
    Nigelb said:

    This is an interesting dynamic.

    The GOP media posting clips of Talarico as attacks on him. And he keeps replying, yes, I approve this message.

    JAMES TALARICO: “Christ is the immigrant deported without due process. Christ is the senior deprived of their Social Security benefits. Christ is the protestor kidnapped in an unmarked vehicle by plain clothes officers.”..
    https://x.com/NRSC/status/2031442594983498169

    It will be fascinating to see how it plays out.

    Can Texas handle a genuine Christian?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,638
    edited March 10
    MelonB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @fintwitter.bsky.social‬

    US INTELLIGENCE SOURCES SAY IRAN IS STARTING TO PLACE MINES IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, A KEY SHIPPING PATH, ACCORDING TO CBS NEWS.

    Oh my God! Who could have possibly foreseen this?
    I think this one is actually unexpected, because it’s an economically suicidal act by Iran on itself. It’s kind of the nuclear option.

    In fact Iran is perhaps demonstrating the closest a non nuclear power can get to firing nukes. It goes beyond Russia’s gas blackmail in 2022.
    It's Paul threatening to kill all the sandworms off, ending spice production. Not sure Trump has read the Dune books tbh.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,012
    MelonB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @fintwitter.bsky.social‬

    US INTELLIGENCE SOURCES SAY IRAN IS STARTING TO PLACE MINES IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, A KEY SHIPPING PATH, ACCORDING TO CBS NEWS.

    Oh my God! Who could have possibly foreseen this?
    I think this one is actually unexpected, because it’s an economically suicidal act by Iran on itself. It’s kind of the nuclear option.

    In fact Iran is perhaps demonstrating the closest a non nuclear power can get to firing nukes. It goes beyond Russia’s gas blackmail in 2022.
    Ultimately its easier for the other Gulf countries to export their oil than it is for Iran.

    Now perhaps the Iranian hardliners don't care but how much the people, in particular the non-Persian minorities, are willing to suffer is not known.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,145
    https://x.com/osint613/status/2031504537760977211

    A IRGC Basij member filmed himself leaving his post, saying he believes the Islamic regime is over.

    Standing inside what he says is a Basij barracks that used to be a school, he explains that everyone there has already left.

    “Everyone is gone or leaving. I’m going home too,” he says. “It seems like the regime is finished and we should surrender. I just hope the people don’t take revenge on us.”
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,769

    Nigelb said:

    This is an interesting dynamic.

    The GOP media posting clips of Talarico as attacks on him. And he keeps replying, yes, I approve this message.

    JAMES TALARICO: “Christ is the immigrant deported without due process. Christ is the senior deprived of their Social Security benefits. Christ is the protestor kidnapped in an unmarked vehicle by plain clothes officers.”..
    https://x.com/NRSC/status/2031442594983498169

    It will be fascinating to see how it plays out.

    Can Texas handle a genuine Christian?
    Would they recognise one?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,769
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    The average voter wants low taxes, lavish public services, and golden elephants, but tough tits. Leadership, if it means anything at all, means telling people hard truths.
    Rather unfortunately the only leader who immediately springs to mind who can genuinely change the mind of their followers rather than the other way around is Trump.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,122

    MelonB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @fintwitter.bsky.social‬

    US INTELLIGENCE SOURCES SAY IRAN IS STARTING TO PLACE MINES IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, A KEY SHIPPING PATH, ACCORDING TO CBS NEWS.

    Oh my God! Who could have possibly foreseen this?
    I think this one is actually unexpected, because it’s an economically suicidal act by Iran on itself. It’s kind of the nuclear option.

    In fact Iran is perhaps demonstrating the closest a non nuclear power can get to firing nukes. It goes beyond Russia’s gas blackmail in 2022.
    Ultimately its easier for the other Gulf countries to export their oil than it is for Iran.

    Now perhaps the Iranian hardliners don't care but how much the people, in particular the non-Persian minorities, are willing to suffer is not known.
    That is a strange way of looking at it. Iran's blockade makes little or no difference to whether or not Iran can export oil as that is dictated by external forces - primarily the Americans and Israelis. They really have nothing to lose in terms of oil exports from shutting the Straits. So this action affects the other Gulf states far more than Iran when you take into account where they already find themselves.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,769
    edited March 10

    I just hope the people don’t take revenge on us.”

    They will if you film yourself, my good man.

    But it would be nice if all the nastier types just quietly left their posts. Certainly turning up for work must be a bit nerve wracking at the moment (along with anyone not nasty who happens to be nearby).

  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,463

    Dopermean said:



    And we are still doing that today and Gordon Brown hasn't been Chancellor since 2007.

    Why not ?

    Brown keeps resurfacing, looking more like the undead every time.

    Given that half the people I worked with at the time lost their jobs I'll keep a flicker of resentment glowing against the self-styled saviour of the world.
    Were they in banking selling derivatives of derivatives of derivatives based on someone's domestic mortgage repayments and getting bonuses for doing so? If so they should have realized it was all a ponzi scheme, if not they have my sympathy.

    Still not Brown's fault that it all fell like the house of cards it turned out to be though, even if the UK had regulated to prevent the banks doing it in UK jurisdiction, they'd still have done it in the US and elsewhere bringing all the same economies down.
    They were in a Yorkshire manufacturing business.

    And so didn't get any money sprayed in their direction as some London and Edinburgh based sectors did.

    I almost wrote 'bailout' but we never needed a bailout, some help might have been nice as we battled through while still paying taxes all the time.

    I suspect that the unacknowledged reality is that the banks were bailed out several times over, not only the bondholders but the insurance companies that had underwritten the bonds and so on. Even the mortgagee at the base of the inverted pyramid probably paid all their repayments on time.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,736
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an interesting dynamic.

    The GOP media posting clips of Talarico as attacks on him. And he keeps replying, yes, I approve this message.

    JAMES TALARICO: “Christ is the immigrant deported without due process. Christ is the senior deprived of their Social Security benefits. Christ is the protestor kidnapped in an unmarked vehicle by plain clothes officers.”..
    https://x.com/NRSC/status/2031442594983498169

    It will be fascinating to see how it plays out.

    Can Texas handle a genuine Christian?
    Would they recognise one?
    Love some of the comments below: how dare - how absolutely dare! - the Democrats use religion for political advantage.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,973

    https://x.com/osint613/status/2031504537760977211

    A IRGC Basij member filmed himself leaving his post, saying he believes the Islamic regime is over.

    Standing inside what he says is a Basij barracks that used to be a school, he explains that everyone there has already left.

    “Everyone is gone or leaving. I’m going home too,” he says. “It seems like the regime is finished and we should surrender. I just hope the people don’t take revenge on us.”

    A big win for Kemi.

    Unless of course you are posting Trump propaganda.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,769
    That'd be a bit of a bummer for the White House, but the decapitation strategy and general bombardment would permit a victory declaration I am sure.

    EW: Israel has concluded in #Iran war
    • Regime change not an option
    • Protests didn’t mobilize
    • Kurdish option is no more
    Result: Escalation of strikes as Trump looks for “elegant exit” and wait for next round

    https://nitter.poast.org/Joyce_Karam/status/2031376356978659461#m
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,769
    edited March 10

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an interesting dynamic.

    The GOP media posting clips of Talarico as attacks on him. And he keeps replying, yes, I approve this message.

    JAMES TALARICO: “Christ is the immigrant deported without due process. Christ is the senior deprived of their Social Security benefits. Christ is the protestor kidnapped in an unmarked vehicle by plain clothes officers.”..
    https://x.com/NRSC/status/2031442594983498169

    It will be fascinating to see how it plays out.

    Can Texas handle a genuine Christian?
    Would they recognise one?
    Love some of the comments below: how dare - how absolutely dare! - the Democrats use religion for political advantage.
    Only one way to spread the message of the Lord.

    Not sure I remember that in the gospels, but then I am a godless atheist.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,235
    Iran is playing the only card it has now . A war of attrition to cause as much global economic pain as possible in the hope that Trump calls a halt to the war .

    The regime doesn’t give a damn about its own civilians and the economic pain and hardship they’ll be subjected to.

    The regime has already said that anyone protesting will be seen as aiding the enemy . As long as the army and IRGC are looked after then the regime remains .

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,330
    https://www.axios.com/2026/03/10/us-ukraine-anti-drone-offer

    U.S. dismissed Ukraine deal for anti-Iran drone tech last year
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,463
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an interesting dynamic.

    The GOP media posting clips of Talarico as attacks on him. And he keeps replying, yes, I approve this message.

    JAMES TALARICO: “Christ is the immigrant deported without due process. Christ is the senior deprived of their Social Security benefits. Christ is the protestor kidnapped in an unmarked vehicle by plain clothes officers.”..
    https://x.com/NRSC/status/2031442594983498169

    It will be fascinating to see how it plays out.

    Can Texas handle a genuine Christian?
    Would they recognise one?
    Love some of the comments below: how dare - how absolutely dare! - the Democrats use religion for political advantage.
    Only one way to spread the message of the Lord.

    Not sure I remember that in the gospels, but then I am a godless atheist.
    I thought it was Herod?

    Even Bill Clinton would swerve that and she's definitely his type.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,494
    nico67 said:

    Iran is playing the only card it has now . A war of attrition to cause as much global economic pain as possible in the hope that Trump calls a halt to the war .

    The regime doesn’t give a damn about its own civilians and the economic pain and hardship they’ll be subjected to.

    The regime has already said that anyone protesting will be seen as aiding the enemy . As long as the army and IRGC are looked after then the regime remains .

    $87 oil isn't going to change things very much.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,521
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Channel 4 have found an Iranian spokesperson who is a University professor. A wise old man who sits in a chair and opines. He reminds me of my late Grandfather! He's even got his accent! A very impressive man. Quite a contrast to the juveniles who are speaking for the US at the moment. I think he could become a bit of a cult figure. He's like the old man in the old man and the sea.

    Have you read Hemingway's book, Roger ?
    I don't recall much pontificating (or Islamic equivalent) from armchairs.
    I worked with a Polish illustrator in Mexico who did the best version I've seen of it. Beautiful story though and there's something about this Iranian which is spiritual in the same way Hemingway's old man is. He didn't let anything phase him
  • Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    Heres the problem

    What is defence?

    Tanks obsolete
    Infantry obsolete
    Ships sitting ducks
    Aeroplanes aka drones

    What are we defending against

    Cyber
    Germs

    The growing reality will be that you might not be able to defend

    Some things will be indefensible against

    Ships aren’t obsolete.
    Aircraft are very different to small drones.
    Infantry isn’t obsolete.
    They might be in 20 years

    The Ukraine War has proven how vulnerable aircraft and ships are in bases.
    This is a lesson we have to keep re-learning, unfortunately. Ships and aircraft have always been vulnerable in base - see Taranto, Pearl Harbor, the Kronstadt raid, operation Bodenplatte, etc.

    Keeping them safe means spending money on those bases. We leave aircraft on the ramp or put them in flimsy hangars because it's cheaper than building concrete bunkers for them.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,494
    Still can't believe MPs voted in favour of the jury plans.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,235
    edited 12:26AM
    The Georgia special election results for MTGs seat are coming in .

    The Dem Harris and Fuller from the GOP go through to the run off .

    The GOP candidate would be heavily favoured then but the real interest is really in Whitfield county which has one of the highest shares of Latino voters in the state.

    Alarm bells will be ringing for the GOP as the Dem is hugely over performing there compared to 2024 .
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,380
    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    viewcode said:

    Am I the only person who got the "epistimological..." Yes Minister reference in the article? Or did everybody get it and you were too shy to admit it?

    Well I got it :smirk:

    (And why is my smiley so big?)
    Vanilla 'upgrade'.
    But I'm sure I've seen some people with the regular sized ones?!
    I’m sure you have 🤭
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,145
    https://x.com/EYakoby/status/2031517080298668488

    The New York Times spoke to an engineer in Tehran who said many residents are surprisingly comfortable with the U.S. bombings.

    “They’re upset when a night passes without strikes and fear the war could end while the regime is still in power.”
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,748
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    So today the Royal Navy managed, after 6 days of truly extraordinary work, to put a vessel to sea. The reality is that almost all of the proposed increase in public spending on defence being planned by the government will achieve very little more than giving us the defence forces that we allegedly had, at least on paper, plus, if we are lucky, enough ammunition to fight a war of more than 2 weeks duration.

    The extent to which our defence forces have been allowed to fall into desuetude whilst almost unlimited sums are spent on the likes of Ajax is a national disgrace, not just for this government (although they are not excused) but for all of our governments of the last 20 odd years since Gulf War 2 was finished. So much money wasted on a system with more admirals than ships, more generals than tanks and more Air Commanders than deployable aircraft.

    Sadly not the case. The planned increase in spend on the nuclear deterrent (necessary to renew it) means that spending on the conventional forces will fall. The state of Britain's conventional forces can be expected to deteriorate further, despite the best efforts of the poor sods at the sharp end.

    Britain has reached the stage where ragged holes have now suddenly appeared in what was a threadbare garment and Labour aren't even proposing to start the repair job.
    But why?

    Britain still spends - relatively and globally - a fuck of a lot of money on defence. We are I think the fifth or biggest military spender in the world?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures

    Where is it going? How can they spunk all this money up the wall, to the extent we can only get one ship out to defend sovereign bases, after a fortnight's delay, when some guy nips down to Smiths for half a ton of blu-tak?

    It don't make sense
    It's because Britain is trying to do more than it is willing to spend.

    So there are two aircraft carriers which soaks up huge amounts of money and manpower. There are foreign bases all over the place, which ties up capability and manpower in defending them. There is the commitment to NATO's enhanced forward presence, which means deploying most of Britain's operational army capability to Estonia. There is the commitment to JEF, which uses up more capability.

    And then there's procurement, where everything has to be designed bespoke for Britain at enormous cost and sometimes questionable efficacy.
    interesting - genuinely - thankyou

    It seems to me we need a rethink of our defence spend from first principles, in the light of all recent events, especially Ukraine, Iran etc

    Non-negotiable: independent nuclear deterrent. We could usefully link with maybe Germany or Japan on creating missiles to carry our warheads so that we don't have to rely on the USA

    Special forces

    Military intelligence

    All forms of autonomous drones, they are the future.....

    But beyond that, we need to question everything. Do piloted jets have a future? Likewise tanks with drivers? Aircraft carriers? Maybe admit they were a terrible error? Or adapt them for robot jets

    Robotics is about to render much present military thinking absurd, the way tanks rendered cavalry and trenches redundant, or the way machine guns and barbed wire overtook Napoleonic war
    There's all of that, but then I think there's just a fundamental truth that for an island trading nation, no longer able to rely on leadership from the US, 2.x% of GDP is not enough to defend British interests.

    Somewhere the money needs to be found to increase that to 4%.
    We need to spend much more on Defence.

    There is no getting around it.

    And that means more spending cuts or tax rises.
    There needs to be spending cuts AND tax rises.

    Everyone needs to lose out with no exceptions.
    I suspect the average voter will not be willing to pay for cuts to public services and their pensions and tax rises to pay for increased arms to Ukraine and increased bombs on regimes in the Middle East they couldn't give a toss about relatively speaking.

    Unless Putin's army is literally in France the average voter is not going to be willing to fork out for a vast increase in defence spending
    The average voter wants low taxes, lavish public services, and golden elephants, but tough tits. Leadership, if it means anything at all, means telling people hard truths.
    Speaking as a representative of the average voter, in principle I'm OK with increasing taxes to fund an increase in defence spending.

    In practice, I'm against, purely because I think any increase will just get spunked up the wall. We endlessly demonstrate that MOD procurement is woeful, and I strongly suspect that's the case for virtually everything they set out to procure - fiascos like Ajax are almost certainly just the tip of the iceburg, we're probably also buying special MOD spec paperclips for £20 a box too.

    We'd probably end up with a better military by having a serious reform of the procurement processes, and spending 2% of GDP wisely, rather than spending 4% of GDP via the current processes.
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