My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
If they believe that they are at war, then why is sinking an enemy naval vessel particularly “disgusting and cowardly”?
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
Sorry but our defense budget is plenty enough to be able to get a single boat out to Akrotiri quicker than it is. Blaming "austerity" here is ridiculous, the French budget is 57 billion Euro, less than our £62 Bn and they seem able to have got a fricking carrier out there whilst our destroyer languishes in port.
‘ China’s government has told the country’s largest oil refiners to suspend exports of diesel and gasoline as an escalating conflict in the Persian Gulf disrupts the arrival of crude from one of the world’s largest producing regions’
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
When you look at the dates these ships have been tied up in port some go well into the days of the Sunak Government.
None of this is new. I had a friend who was a submariner in the 1980s. He took a surface ship on a jolly to Stanvanger, a T class sub to Cardiff and then Florida and he spent the remainder of his three years wind surfing on Loch Lomond.
Gosh, if they've lost the Guardian, it's definitely time to chuck it in.
She reminded me of Kinnock's woeful Parliamentary performance during the Westland saga.
It was a moment where she could have taken the higher ground as LOTO. Rather than criticism for criticism 's sake she could have mixed and matched support for the Government line with questions of operational wisdom. However her line was, and this is contrary to public opinion, fully behind the action taken by Israel and the US, demanding the UK should escalate the crisis. It was a bizarre outburst. Has she learned nothing from Iraq.
If the US has indeed already won*, as the manchild Hegseth claims, she can take her win. But if this collapses into an Iraq facsimile she is going to look very silly, as indeed she did yesterday.
* What does a win look like? Fire and fury across North Africa and the Middle East, the rapture, and Jesus returning to take his place amongst us?
What happens if Jesus turns out not to be white?
Kemi has had better PMQs but Starmer has to address how an immediate and substantial increase in defence spending
He was also out of order when he failed to answer her question and made a public statement about relief flights out of the region to deflect the question
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
I can understand your distress but sadly this is the consquences of war
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
It was not a war these sailors started or would have had anything to do with. You have as much empathy as that ghastly Tory leader you worship
So... I don't know anything about this particular case, but I do know the LNG market pretty well.
It is very common for natural gas shipping companies to move shipments around. You may have contracted a shipment from Qatar, and you may end up with one from PNG or Australia or the US. The contracts you sign allow the shippers to substitute identical CH4 molecules. (Just as the oil that comes out of a pipeline is not necessarily from the field you bought it from.)
And the shipping companies -who have daily costs per vessel of at least $40,000- will be constantly trying to save a day here or a day there, because that's serious money.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
I can understand your distress but sadly this is the consquences of war
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
It was not a war these sailors started or would have had anything to do with. You have as much empathy as that ghastly Tory leader you worship
Look, I'm no fan of this war, but that's true of every conflict in the history of mankind.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
Well said. Something of a rare comment now the site has become riddled with Badenoch's Tories and assorted Tommy Robinson flaf wavers
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
I can understand your distress but sadly this is the consquences of war
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
It was not a war these sailors started or would have had anything to do with. You have as much empathy as that ghastly Tory leader you worship
How about you condemned the Iranian regime for slaughtering 40,000 of their own citizens if you want to be self righteous
BREAKING: Sky News understands the first chartered flight due to take off from Muscat in Oman at 7pm GMT last night is still on the ground. The flight was due to bring home Brits and their families from the Middle East but passengers have been sent to hotels
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
They do miss that we have an operational Astute-class in Australia for some reason. I think the bigger issue for the government is that what assets we do have are in the wrong place, or are taking a silly amount of time to get moving.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
I can understand your distress but sadly this is the consquences of war
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
It was not a war these sailors started or would have had anything to do with. You have as much empathy as that ghastly Tory leader you worship
Look, I'm no fan of this war, but that's true of every conflict in the history of mankind.
When they left harbour they were just sailors on a boat. They were not at war with anyone. How were they to know would be attacked by a lunatic
So... I don't know anything about this particular case, but I do know the LNG market pretty well.
It is very common for natural gas shipping companies to move shipments around. You may have contracted a shipment from Qatar, and you may end up with one from PNG or Australia or the US. The contracts you sign allow the shippers to substitute identical CH4 molecules. (Just as the oil that comes out of a pipeline is not necessarily from the field you bought it from.)
And the shipping companies -who have daily costs per vessel of at least $40,000- will be constantly trying to save a day here or a day there, because that's serious money.
It’s been that way for a long time, as well. Back in the day, they used to plan movements months or years in advance. That’s when I was writing planning tools, that generated delivery schedules and tested them for robustness.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
I can understand your distress but sadly this is the consquences of war
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
It was not a war these sailors started or would have had anything to do with. You have as much empathy as that ghastly Tory leader you worship
Look, I'm no fan of this war, but that's true of every conflict in the history of mankind.
When they left harbour they were just sailors on a boat. They were not at war with anyone. How were they to know would be attacked by a lunatic
They were not sailors on a boat but on a sophisticated Iranian warship that is at war
I am surprised that they did not detect the submarine
And when will you condem the Iranian regime for slaughtering 40,000 of their own people just a few months ago ?
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
Well said. Something of a rare comment now the site has become riddled with Badenoch's Tories and assorted Tommy Robinson flaf wavers
So... I don't know anything about this particular case, but I do know the LNG market pretty well.
It is very common for natural gas shipping companies to move shipments around. You may have contracted a shipment from Qatar, and you may end up with one from PNG or Australia or the US. The contracts you sign allow the shippers to substitute identical CH4 molecules. (Just as the oil that comes out of a pipeline is not necessarily from the field you bought it from.)
And the shipping companies -who have daily costs per vessel of at least $40,000- will be constantly trying to save a day here or a day there, because that's serious money.
The Russian LNG carrier just burnt down in the Med off Malta. Remarkable photos. The hole is 150ft wide - that is, 10 large cars end to end.
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
Sorry but our defense budget is plenty enough to be able to get a single boat out to Akrotiri quicker than it is. Blaming "austerity" here is ridiculous, the French budget is 57 billion Euro, less than our £62 Bn and they seem able to have got a fricking carrier out there whilst our destroyer languishes in port.
Sure, our admirals (and the brass hats of the RAF) are pretty useless too. It has been obvious that Trump was going to kick off the Epstein War for weeks with all the concentration of US military assets there.
Did it not occur to any of them that it might be useful to have assets in region, or at least ready to deploy, even if only to help evacuate/humanitarian relief/show the flag?
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
That's not the point. The real problem is that we're not funding defence properly.
We actually have a coherent strategy, and a blue-water navy is a necessary part of it. But we're trying to deliver that strategy on an inadequate budget.
The solution isn't to start hacking away at key capabilities — with the carriers first in line — just to make the numbers work. That just turns defence planning into a zero-sum game.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
I can understand your distress but sadly this is the consquences of war
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
It was not a war these sailors started or would have had anything to do with. You have as much empathy as that ghastly Tory leader you worship
Look, I'm no fan of this war, but that's true of every conflict in the history of mankind.
When they left harbour they were just sailors on a boat. They were not at war with anyone. How were they to know would be attacked by a lunatic
Perfectly legitimate target, I'm afraid. If you're going to have any complaints, it's the way the Americans went about it. Getting that close, and using a submarine, suggests to me that it was a social-media driven sinking and unnecessary number of lives have been lost as result. It also put the American sailors at unnecessary risk.
Sums the whole thing up really. As much as people want to do some post-hoc justification, this is ultimately a war for the bantz. The brief and extremely late attempt to come up with a 45-minute nuclear style excuse was particularly pathetic (and look at those on PB who lapped it up). Since then they've tried "holy war" (with US commanders using that as a justification in the field), and now they are stating it was based on Trump's "feelings".
EXC: My Iran deep dive, which the Telegraph has splashed on this morning 🚨Starmer wanted to let the US use Dieo Garcia to attack Iranian missile sites last Friday. The defence secretary John Healey supported him at the NSC. But his ministers, led by 'petulant' Ed Miliband, stopped him 🚨Chief of the Defence staff had to tell the Americans how to frame their request on Saturday so ministers could agree it on Sunday. 48 hours lost and with it UK credibility with allies 🚨We've have all thought Richard Hermer was the main blockage. Actually it was Milband, Reeves, Cooper and Mahmood. A PM who can't carry his own war cabinet
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
I can understand your distress but sadly this is the consquences of war
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
It was not a war these sailors started or would have had anything to do with. You have as much empathy as that ghastly Tory leader you worship
Look, I'm no fan of this war, but that's true of every conflict in the history of mankind.
When they left harbour they were just sailors on a boat. They were not at war with anyone. How were they to know would be attacked by a lunatic
They were not sailors on a boat but on a sophisticated Iranian warship that is at war
I think this highlights the key difference between the USA and Europe.
Europe generally does not have a willingness to be as ruthless. I do not at present see a European country sinking an Iranian ship that is immediately at the end of ab international fleet review organised by India involving about 20 countries.
The push-pull in NATO etc is as much about political will as it is about capability.
As I see it, the Trump regime and the USA armed forces would in principle be perfectly willing to do a Venezuela type operation in a European or NATO country if they thought it necessary.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
If they believe that they are at war, then why is sinking an enemy naval vessel particularly “disgusting and cowardly”?
This is a war launched by the US, ostensibly to prevent an imminent threat from Iran (which in itself is doubtful). It's very hard to argue that this ship presented any imminent threat, if any at all.
If, as has also been suggested, it's about regime change, or lifting the oppression the regime has visited on its own citizens, then it has no bearing on that either.
Of course if you're saying it's fine for the US just to kill as many people as possible, and it shouldn't bother us, then it's consistent with that position.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
I can understand your distress but sadly this is the consquences of war
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
It was not a war these sailors started or would have had anything to do with. You have as much empathy as that ghastly Tory leader you worship
Look, I'm no fan of this war, but that's true of every conflict in the history of mankind.
When they left harbour they were just sailors on a boat. They were not at war with anyone. How were they to know would be attacked by a lunatic
Perfectly legitimate target, I'm afraid. If you're going to have any complaints, it's the way the Americans went about it. Getting that close, and using a submarine, suggests to me that it was a social-media driven sinking and unnecessary number of lives have been lost as result. It also put the American sailors at unnecessary risk.
Sums the whole thing up really. As much as people want to do some post-hoc justification, this is ultimately a war for the bantz. The brief and extremely late attempt to come up with a 45-minute nuclear style excuse was particularly pathetic (and look at those on PB who lapped it up). Since then they've tried "holy war" (with US commanders using that as a justification in the field), and now they are stating it was based on Trump's "feelings".
It wasn’t especially close by submarine standards. The periscope was at maximum magnification.
One reason for using a submarine might be to definitely identify the target. Also, guided torpedos are more likely not to swan off to the horizon and sink something else.
Sinking the wrong navies ship might be seen as rude.
EXC: My Iran deep dive, which the Telegraph has splashed on this morning 🚨Starmer wanted to let the US use Dieo Garcia to attack Iranian missile sites last Friday. The defence secretary John Healey supported him at the NSC. But his ministers, led by 'petulant' Ed Miliband, stopped him 🚨Chief of the Defence staff had to tell the Americans how to frame their request on Saturday so ministers could agree it on Sunday. 48 hours lost and with it UK credibility with allies 🚨We've have all thought Richard Hermer was the main blockage. Actually it was Milband, Reeves, Cooper and Mahmood. A PM who can't carry his own war cabinet
No suprise, Ed Miliband of course also blocked UK missile strikes on Assad after he gassed a childrens' hospital just over a decade ago as well. Mahmood in the anti block as well so clearly she got as much on the Labour right as though either, same with Reeves and Cooper
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
That's not the point. The real problem is that we're not funding defence properly.
We actually have a coherent strategy, and a blue-water navy is a necessary part of it. But we're trying to deliver that strategy on an inadequate budget.
The solution isn't to start hacking away at key capabilities — with the carriers first in line — just to make the numbers work. That just turns defence planning into a zero-sum game.
I would argue that we have a sufficient number of ships and subs, and enough being built (impossible to increase the rate of subs in particular). It's the maintenance and crews that are the problem. Unfortunately, the MOD/Starmer won't be interested in investing in those because they don't make a good press release.
Thankfully we have the iron chancellor Reeves putting a stop to vanity projects. (I'm only half-kidding - the fight back against the new helicopter order does suggest some ice at the Treasury).
Also Trumps whinge about allies not being supportive of his Epstein War, when just weeks ago he was deriding British and other nations commitments in Afghanistan.
It's normal for most to be in refit or maintenance. That's the Daily Mail being it's usual, deceptive, exagerration driven, shit-stirring self. They are fluffing themselves angry over a fairly normal situation given the size of our navy, and a favourable one given how much maintenance has been skimped on over many years. They are also being misleading about how quickly some can return to duty, afaics.
2 operational is what would be normal (or slightly above normal) for a class of 6. 2 others would be in short term maintenance to be available for a crisis, and 2 in deeper maintenance. There would normally also be training or exercise, which the DM has not noted. There's a trend to having several in even-longer term refit, because of fundamental problems - and we have 3 not 2 in long term refit.
3 from 7 is good, and perhaps driving the fleet too hard which will cause a rebound later. If only we had not sold 3 to Chile.
More than that and the fleet is being run in an overstressed situation for "normal". That is why I remarked the other day that we need more like 28-30 than 13-15 escort class vessels.
It is also why we and the French both have 4 SSNs ion order to be able to guarantee one to be at sea at all times.
If it's any consolation, we went into WW2 with elements of the fleet not upgraded as planned, because that naughty Mr Hitler had a brainstorm and started early. Admiral Raeder was not happy.
Yes, the 1998 Strategic Defence Review projected we would need 32 destroyers and frigates.
We now have 13, several of which are in long-term refit for "fundamental problems" - as you say.
EXC: My Iran deep dive, which the Telegraph has splashed on this morning 🚨Starmer wanted to let the US use Dieo Garcia to attack Iranian missile sites last Friday. The defence secretary John Healey supported him at the NSC. But his ministers, led by 'petulant' Ed Miliband, stopped him 🚨Chief of the Defence staff had to tell the Americans how to frame their request on Saturday so ministers could agree it on Sunday. 48 hours lost and with it UK credibility with allies 🚨We've have all thought Richard Hermer was the main blockage. Actually it was Milband, Reeves, Cooper and Mahmood. A PM who can't carry his own war cabinet
Miliband gets the politics. Just look at the polling on this.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
One images the Iranian Kurds priority might be to liberate Iranian Kurdistan, rather than marching on Tehran.
EXC: My Iran deep dive, which the Telegraph has splashed on this morning 🚨Starmer wanted to let the US use Dieo Garcia to attack Iranian missile sites last Friday. The defence secretary John Healey supported him at the NSC. But his ministers, led by 'petulant' Ed Miliband, stopped him 🚨Chief of the Defence staff had to tell the Americans how to frame their request on Saturday so ministers could agree it on Sunday. 48 hours lost and with it UK credibility with allies 🚨We've have all thought Richard Hermer was the main blockage. Actually it was Milband, Reeves, Cooper and Mahmood. A PM who can't carry his own war cabinet
Miliband gets the politics. Just look at the polling on this.
Yes, it is either him or Rayner in Number 10 by Christmas.
EXC: My Iran deep dive, which the Telegraph has splashed on this morning 🚨Starmer wanted to let the US use Dieo Garcia to attack Iranian missile sites last Friday. The defence secretary John Healey supported him at the NSC. But his ministers, led by 'petulant' Ed Miliband, stopped him 🚨Chief of the Defence staff had to tell the Americans how to frame their request on Saturday so ministers could agree it on Sunday. 48 hours lost and with it UK credibility with allies 🚨We've have all thought Richard Hermer was the main blockage. Actually it was Milband, Reeves, Cooper and Mahmood. A PM who can't carry his own war cabinet
Thank God for Ed Milliband and crew. This is a million times worse than the illegal Iraq war.
Can I ask the pea brained right wing lunatics on here? What is the fucking pointing this illegal war?
Andrew Neil put it to William Hague that the Cameron government in which he was Foreign Secretary cut defence spending by 20 per cent. Hague claimed they did build two aircraft carriers but of course they were inherited from Labour.
This is the problem, the QE class hollowed out every other part of the Navy for a massive vanity project of very limited utility.
The Admirals/Warships argument is a load of fucking wank advanced by people who understand neither. There has to be a lot of flag ranks because there has to be a reasonable chance of a mid career officer advancing to flag rank. If there were three Admirals in the entire RN then many Commanders/Captains/Commodores would leave because there would be little prospect of getting your flag. Those ranks are the ones who will actually lead the fighting in a conflict.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
I can understand your distress but sadly this is the consquences of war
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
It's not "the consequences of war"; it's a deliberate choice. Even if you accept the war is justified (which is some way from clear), this was unnecessary to the aims most people attribute to it (though what those aims are is also unclear).
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
That's not the point. The real problem is that we're not funding defence properly.
We actually have a coherent strategy, and a blue-water navy is a necessary part of it. But we're trying to deliver that strategy on an inadequate budget.
The solution isn't to start hacking away at key capabilities — with the carriers first in line — just to make the numbers work. That just turns defence planning into a zero-sum game.
Those carriers were always a stupid penis substitute by Gordon Brown, and personally I think they were always destined for a nascent EU Navy.
That doesn't mean the Navy isn't under-funded - it is.
And that doesn't mean that it doesn't waste money, clearly it does.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
One images the Iranian Kurds priority might be to liberate Iranian Kurdistan, rather than marching on Tehran.
Even that might be a challenge. 35% of Iranian kurds are Shia. Kurds have plenty of internal squabbles of their own.
They also have a long memory of being betrayed, not least by Trump 45 in Syria.
Andrew Neil put it to William Hague that the Cameron government in which he was Foreign Secretary cut defence spending by 20 per cent. Hague claimed they did build two aircraft carriers but of course they were inherited from Labour.
This is the problem, the QE class hollowed out every other part of the Navy for a massive vanity project of very limited utility.
The Admirals/Warships argument is a load of fucking wank advanced by people who understand neither. There has to be a lot of flag ranks because there has to be a reasonable chance of a mid career officer advancing to flag rank. If there were three Admirals in the entire RN then many Commanders/Captains/Commodores would leave because there would be little prospect of getting your flag. Those ranks are the ones who will actually lead the fighting in a conflict.
Pay them more by length of service.
It's not even remotely about the money.
If we need more admirals to secure the services of all our Commanders, Captains and Commodores, why do we have so many of them? How many of those do we need per ship? It is all very hospitals without patients.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
EXC: My Iran deep dive, which the Telegraph has splashed on this morning 🚨Starmer wanted to let the US use Dieo Garcia to attack Iranian missile sites last Friday. The defence secretary John Healey supported him at the NSC. But his ministers, led by 'petulant' Ed Miliband, stopped him 🚨Chief of the Defence staff had to tell the Americans how to frame their request on Saturday so ministers could agree it on Sunday. 48 hours lost and with it UK credibility with allies 🚨We've have all thought Richard Hermer was the main blockage. Actually it was Milband, Reeves, Cooper and Mahmood. A PM who can't carry his own war cabinet
Thank God for Ed Milliband and crew. This is a million times worse than the illegal Iraq war.
Can I ask the pea brained right wing lunatics on here? What is the fucking pointing this illegal war?
No Iraq War, Saddam would still be in charge of Iraq, these Iranian strikes have also removed Khamenei. In any case Starmer was only seeking strikes on Iranian missile bases to protect UK citizens in the Gulf
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
If they believe that they are at war, then why is sinking an enemy naval vessel particularly “disgusting and cowardly”?
They don’t believe they are at war. It’s a military operation. To be at war would require approval from Congress, which may not come.
Gosh, if they've lost the Guardian, it's definitely time to chuck it in.
She reminded me of Kinnock's woeful Parliamentary performance during the Westland saga.
It was a moment where she could have taken the higher ground as LOTO. Rather than criticism for criticism 's sake she could have mixed and matched support for the Government line with questions of operational wisdom. However her line was, and this is contrary to public opinion, fully behind the action taken by Israel and the US, demanding the UK should escalate the crisis. It was a bizarre outburst. Has she learned nothing from Iraq.
If the US has indeed already won*, as the manchild Hegseth claims, she can take her win. But if this collapses into an Iraq facsimile she is going to look very silly, as indeed she did yesterday.
* What does a win look like? Fire and fury across North Africa and the Middle East, the rapture, and Jesus returning to take his place amongst us?
What happens if Jesus turns out not to be white?
Kemi has had better PMQs but Starmer has to address how an immediate and substantial increase in defence spending
He was also out of order when he failed to answer her question and made a public statement about relief flights out of the region to deflect the question
Badenoch was unnecessarily poor yesterday. Davy (as usual) hit all the high notes.
Defence spending is an enormous concern. Where is the money coming from? There needs to be an income tax and or wealth tax surcharge which, you are right, Reeves has not budgeted for. But why do we find ourselves so far out to see ( oor rather, the opposite)? Austerity, Brexit, and Boris Johnson.
I know she doesn't have to find the money, so she can say what she likes, but where does Kemi's uptick in Defence spending come from? Maybe she could close some schools and hospitals.
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
Sorry but our defense budget is plenty enough to be able to get a single boat out to Akrotiri quicker than it is. Blaming "austerity" here is ridiculous, the French budget is 57 billion Euro, less than our £62 Bn and they seem able to have got a fricking carrier out there whilst our destroyer languishes in port.
Sure, our admirals (and the brass hats of the RAF) are pretty useless too. It has been obvious that Trump was going to kick off the Epstein War for weeks with all the concentration of US military assets there.
Did it not occur to any of them that it might be useful to have assets in region, or at least ready to deploy, even if only to help evacuate/humanitarian relief/show the flag?
We did have assets in Cyprus - just not a destroyer, and so obviously the press and the politicians here bang on about that particular aspect..
And we are running an evacuation Operation - I'm hearing of people from the USA who feel abandoned, their regional embassies etc starting to be pulled. You cannot evacuate 250k people from Dubai with the RN or the RAF.
If there is a task that we would need to do with the RN out there, it will be escorting shipping through Hormuz with other NATO countries, and Europe is better equipped for that than the USA - we have far more escorts, and fewer carriers needing 3 or 4 each to protect them.
So... I don't know anything about this particular case, but I do know the LNG market pretty well.
It is very common for natural gas shipping companies to move shipments around. You may have contracted a shipment from Qatar, and you may end up with one from PNG or Australia or the US. The contracts you sign allow the shippers to substitute identical CH4 molecules. (Just as the oil that comes out of a pipeline is not necessarily from the field you bought it from.)
And the shipping companies -who have daily costs per vessel of at least $40,000- will be constantly trying to save a day here or a day there, because that's serious money.
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
Sorry but our defense budget is plenty enough to be able to get a single boat out to Akrotiri quicker than it is. Blaming "austerity" here is ridiculous, the French budget is 57 billion Euro, less than our £62 Bn and they seem able to have got a fricking carrier out there whilst our destroyer languishes in port.
Sure, our admirals (and the brass hats of the RAF) are pretty useless too. It has been obvious that Trump was going to kick off the Epstein War for weeks with all the concentration of US military assets there.
Did it not occur to any of them that it might be useful to have assets in region, or at least ready to deploy, even if only to help evacuate/humanitarian relief/show the flag?
We did have assets in Cyprus - just not a destroyer, and so obviously the press and the politicians here bang on about that particular aspect..
And we are running an evacuation Operation. You cannot evacuate 250k people from Dubai with the RN or the RAF.
Tbh the evacuation operation (except people transiting via Doha/Dubai) is probably a net negative in polling terms. The online commentary about expats, even people on holiday there, has been savage.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
As Hegseth said, no more woke rules of engagement.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
Incidentally, yesterday Hegseth claimed that it was the first warship sunk by torpedo since WW2. Clearly the Belgrano doesn't count for some reason.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
Reform and the Tories support this unconditionally
Gosh, if they've lost the Guardian, it's definitely time to chuck it in.
She reminded me of Kinnock's woeful Parliamentary performance during the Westland saga.
It was a moment where she could have taken the higher ground as LOTO. Rather than criticism for criticism 's sake she could have mixed and matched support for the Government line with questions of operational wisdom. However her line was, and this is contrary to public opinion, fully behind the action taken by Israel and the US, demanding the UK should escalate the crisis. It was a bizarre outburst. Has she learned nothing from Iraq.
If the US has indeed already won*, as the manchild Hegseth claims, she can take her win. But if this collapses into an Iraq facsimile she is going to look very silly, as indeed she did yesterday.
* What does a win look like? Fire and fury across North Africa and the Middle East, the rapture, and Jesus returning to take his place amongst us?
What happens if Jesus turns out not to be white?
Kemi has had better PMQs but Starmer has to address how an immediate and substantial increase in defence spending
He was also out of order when he failed to answer her question and made a public statement about relief flights out of the region to deflect the question
Badenoch was unnecessarily poor yesterday. Davy (as usual) hit all the high notes.
Defence spending is an enormous concern. Where is the money coming from? There needs to be an income tax and or wealth tax surcharge which, you are right, Reeves has not budgeted for. But why do we find ourselves so far out to see ( oor rather, the opposite)? Austerity, Brexit, and Boris Johnson.
I know she doesn't have to find the money, so she can say what she likes, but where does Kemi's uptick in Defence spending come from? Maybe she could close some schools and hospitals.
I like the idea that anyone evacuated from Dubai should have their passport held for 91 days, thereby making them liable for UK tax.
EXC: My Iran deep dive, which the Telegraph has splashed on this morning 🚨Starmer wanted to let the US use Dieo Garcia to attack Iranian missile sites last Friday. The defence secretary John Healey supported him at the NSC. But his ministers, led by 'petulant' Ed Miliband, stopped him 🚨Chief of the Defence staff had to tell the Americans how to frame their request on Saturday so ministers could agree it on Sunday. 48 hours lost and with it UK credibility with allies 🚨We've have all thought Richard Hermer was the main blockage. Actually it was Milband, Reeves, Cooper and Mahmood. A PM who can't carry his own war cabinet
Thank God for Ed Milliband and crew. This is a million times worse than the illegal Iraq war.
Can I ask the pea brained right wing lunatics on here? What is the fucking pointing this illegal war?
Keeping Epstein off the front page? Keeping Netayahu out of jail? Pumping a little blood into the shrivelled flaccid members of PB chickenhawks?
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
Reform and the Tories support this unconditionally
I think that is an opportunity for both Keir and Kemi.
Keir can differentiate himself from "Trump's Yes Woman" and Kemi can differentiate herself from "Up Trump's Anus Nigel" further to her right.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
As Hegseth said, no more woke rules of engagement.
I suppose they’re going to be fine with whatever outrages Iran commits upon any captured US serviceman.
Gosh, if they've lost the Guardian, it's definitely time to chuck it in.
She reminded me of Kinnock's woeful Parliamentary performance during the Westland saga.
It was a moment where she could have taken the higher ground as LOTO. Rather than criticism for criticism 's sake she could have mixed and matched support for the Government line with questions of operational wisdom. However her line was, and this is contrary to public opinion, fully behind the action taken by Israel and the US, demanding the UK should escalate the crisis. It was a bizarre outburst. Has she learned nothing from Iraq.
If the US has indeed already won*, as the manchild Hegseth claims, she can take her win. But if this collapses into an Iraq facsimile she is going to look very silly, as indeed she did yesterday.
* What does a win look like? Fire and fury across North Africa and the Middle East, the rapture, and Jesus returning to take his place amongst us?
What happens if Jesus turns out not to be white?
Kemi has had better PMQs but Starmer has to address how an immediate and substantial increase in defence spending
He was also out of order when he failed to answer her question and made a public statement about relief flights out of the region to deflect the question
Badenoch was unnecessarily poor yesterday. Davy (as usual) hit all the high notes.
Defence spending is an enormous concern. Where is the money coming from? There needs to be an income tax and or wealth tax surcharge which, you are right, Reeves has not budgeted for. But why do we find ourselves so far out to see ( oor rather, the opposite)? Austerity, Brexit, and Boris Johnson.
I know she doesn't have to find the money, so she can say what she likes, but where does Kemi's uptick in Defence spending come from? Maybe she could close some schools and hospitals.
I rarely watch it but find it hard, from what I’ve seen, to believe Davy is consistently good. Presumably he’s going to be waiting at Heathrow for arriving planes from the Gulf to collect taxes. A debate we wouldn’t have if it was Brits in Marbella.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
Religious zealot Whisky Pete's post match summary was particularly disgusting.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
Incidentally, yesterday Hegseth claimed that it was the first warship sunk by torpedo since WW2. Clearly the Belgrano doesn't count for some reason.
It's normal for most to be in refit or maintenance. That's the Daily Mail being it's usual, deceptive, exagerration driven, shit-stirring self. They are fluffing themselves angry over a fairly normal situation given the size of our navy, and a favourable one given how much maintenance has been skimped on over many years. They are also being misleading about how quickly some can return to duty, afaics.
2 operational is what would be normal (or slightly above normal) for a class of 6. 2 others would be in short term maintenance to be available for a crisis, and 2 in deeper maintenance. There would normally also be training or exercise, which the DM has not noted. There's a trend to having several in even-longer term refit, because of fundamental problems - and we have 3 not 2 in long term refit.
3 from 7 is good, and perhaps driving the fleet too hard which will cause a rebound later. If only we had not sold 3 to Chile.
More than that and the fleet is being run in an overstressed situation for "normal". That is why I remarked the other day that we need more like 28-30 than 13-15 escort class vessels.
It is also why we and the French both have 4 SSNs ion order to be able to guarantee one to be at sea at all times.
If it's any consolation, we went into WW2 with elements of the fleet not upgraded as planned, because that naughty Mr Hitler had a brainstorm and started early. Admiral Raeder was not happy.
I am not sure how far you disagree with the Mail. There are two points. One is the number of operational ships is too low, whether that is due to badly planned maintenance or, as you suggest, not enough ships overall. The navy has lost a third of its ships this century alone. The second is whether refits and maintenance are taking too long, and why.
On ww2 Germany, yes, after Norway, the Kriegsmarine had hardly any operational surface ships left. However, since the Nazis had invested so much in heavy cruisers or pocket battleships, almost none of which did anything of any military significance before being sunk or trapped in port, it did not really matter.
This is of course what some question about our own military planning. Labour might have ended Tory defence cuts but placed a huge bet on aircraft carriers for which we cannot afford aircraft, and for which we have not got sufficient support ships (at least by US Navy standards) and which are intended to police trade routes which are under American protection already. Pax Americana has long replaced Pax Britannica, the current White House incumbent notwithstanding.
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
That's not the point. The real problem is that we're not funding defence properly.
We actually have a coherent strategy, and a blue-water navy is a necessary part of it. But we're trying to deliver that strategy on an inadequate budget.
The solution isn't to start hacking away at key capabilities — with the carriers first in line — just to make the numbers work. That just turns defence planning into a zero-sum game.
Those carriers were always a stupid penis substitute by Gordon Brown, and personally I think they were always destined for a nascent EU Navy.
That doesn't mean the Navy isn't under-funded - it is.
And that doesn't mean that it doesn't waste money, clearly it does.
Totally disagree. They were based on the need for the Royal Navy to be able to project force and secure sea lanes and trade anywhere in the world post-Cold War to protect stability and British interests.
The EU stuff is utter bollocks and a conspiracy theory.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
War is hell and never pretty, but both your post and OLB's are utterly absurd and driven by knee-jerk anti-Americanism. The likes they have accumulated are symbolic of the brainrot of this site.
A state of effectively unrestricted war exists between the USA and Iran. Iran should expect their military assets to be subject to attack wherever they are in the world and there's absolutely no question whatsoever that they'd do the same if they had a similar opportunity - they are even randomly attacking countries that have nothing to do with it.
Kemi getting an initially easy ride from Nick Robinson, but he's lost his patience now. She wouldn't give Trump a blank cheque but she would allow him to use our bases to start a war without seeing the evidence. Beyond stupid.
EXC: My Iran deep dive, which the Telegraph has splashed on this morning 🚨Starmer wanted to let the US use Dieo Garcia to attack Iranian missile sites last Friday. The defence secretary John Healey supported him at the NSC. But his ministers, led by 'petulant' Ed Miliband, stopped him 🚨Chief of the Defence staff had to tell the Americans how to frame their request on Saturday so ministers could agree it on Sunday. 48 hours lost and with it UK credibility with allies 🚨We've have all thought Richard Hermer was the main blockage. Actually it was Milband, Reeves, Cooper and Mahmood. A PM who can't carry his own war cabinet
No suprise, Ed Miliband of course also blocked UK missile strikes on Assad after he gassed a childrens' hospital just over a decade ago as well. Mahmood in the anti block as well so clearly she got as much on the Labour right as though either, same with Reeves and Cooper
You do know EICIPM is not literally true? Nor was he American president.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
Incidentally, yesterday Hegseth claimed that it was the first warship sunk by torpedo since WW2. Clearly the Belgrano doesn't count for some reason.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
War is hell and never pretty, but both your post and OLB's are utterly absurd and driven by knee-jerk anti-Americanism. The likes they have accumulated are symbolic of the brainrot of this site.
A state of effectively unrestricted war exists between the USA and Iran. Iran should expect their military assets to be subject to attack wherever they are in the world and there's absolutely no question whatsoever that they'd do the same if they had a similar opportunity - they are even randomly attacking countries that have nothing to do with it.
I'm hardly anti American, I lived five blocks from Congress for five years and two of my kids have US passports. But I've not lost my moral compass to the extent that I won't call out sheer bloody murder when I see it.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
War is hell and never pretty, but both your post and OLB's are utterly absurd and driven by knee-jerk anti-Americanism. The likes they have accumulated are symbolic of the brainrot of this site.
A state of effectively unrestricted war exists between the USA and Iran. Iran should expect their military assets to be subject to attack wherever they are in the world and there's absolutely no question whatsoever that they'd do the same if they had a similar opportunity - they are even randomly attacking countries that have nothing to do with it.
I'm hardly anti American, I lived five blocks from Congress for five years and two of my kids have US passports. But I've not lost my moral compass to the extent that I won't call out sheer bloody murder when I see it.
It's not murder, it's war.
Iran has vowed to attack any ship in the Straits of Hormuz and has been fighting a proxy war for years across the whole region, including sponsoring terrorist attacks of Hezbollah and Hamas, proxies in Yemen, and indiscrimately targetting ships in the Red Sea and around the Horn of Africa.
How long before Iran targets the desalination plants supporting its neighbours ? I would if I was them. Cry havoc.
The US can’t protect them and Israel wouldn’t care either way.
Do we have any idea if this is all going to plan or not ?
Initially it was 4 weeks max.
My late uncle was the plant superintendent at Ras Abu Fontas power station in Doha, he had a desalination plant attached. That is how it works out there. So Iran if they go for the desalination plants they get a BOGOF bonus of a power station.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
As Hegseth said, no more woke rules of engagement.
I suppose they’re going to be fine with whatever outrages Iran commits upon any captured US serviceman.
Having them on Iranian TV saying Trump and Hegseth are c**** you mean?
It will be hard to know if they are acting under duress.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
One images the Iranian Kurds priority might be to liberate Iranian Kurdistan, rather than marching on Tehran.
Depends what bonus deal they are on from Washington...
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It was an act of sheer atavistic carnage. I felt a bit sick when I saw it tbh. And I've seen some shit.
They did it because they could.
War is hell and never pretty, but both your post and OLB's are utterly absurd and driven by knee-jerk anti-Americanism. The likes they have accumulated are symbolic of the brainrot of this site.
A state of effectively unrestricted war exists between the USA and Iran. Iran should expect their military assets to be subject to attack wherever they are in the world and there's absolutely no question whatsoever that they'd do the same if they had a similar opportunity - they are even randomly attacking countries that have nothing to do with it.
I'm hardly anti American, I lived five blocks from Congress for five years and two of my kids have US passports. But I've not lost my moral compass to the extent that I won't call out sheer bloody murder when I see it.
It's not murder, it's war.
Iran has vowed to attack any ship in the Straits of Hormuz and has been fighting a proxy war for years across the whole region, including sponsoring terrorist attacks of Hezbollah and Hamas, proxies in Yemen, and indiscrimately targetting ships in the Red Sea and around the Horn of Africa.
So you can get off your high-horse.
If it's war why has the US Congress not declared war?
Gosh, if they've lost the Guardian, it's definitely time to chuck it in.
She reminded me of Kinnock's woeful Parliamentary performance during the Westland saga.
It was a moment where she could have taken the higher ground as LOTO. Rather than criticism for criticism 's sake she could have mixed and matched support for the Government line with questions of operational wisdom. However her line was, and this is contrary to public opinion, fully behind the action taken by Israel and the US, demanding the UK should escalate the crisis. It was a bizarre outburst. Has she learned nothing from Iraq.
If the US has indeed already won*, as the manchild Hegseth claims, she can take her win. But if this collapses into an Iraq facsimile she is going to look very silly, as indeed she did yesterday.
* What does a win look like? Fire and fury across North Africa and the Middle East, the rapture, and Jesus returning to take his place amongst us?
What happens if Jesus turns out not to be white?
Kemi has had better PMQs but Starmer has to address how an immediate and substantial increase in defence spending
He was also out of order when he failed to answer her question and made a public statement about relief flights out of the region to deflect the question
Badenoch was unnecessarily poor yesterday. Davy (as usual) hit all the high notes.
Defence spending is an enormous concern. Where is the money coming from? There needs to be an income tax and or wealth tax surcharge which, you are right, Reeves has not budgeted for. But why do we find ourselves so far out to see ( oor rather, the opposite)? Austerity, Brexit, and Boris Johnson.
I know she doesn't have to find the money, so she can say what she likes, but where does Kemi's uptick in Defence spending come from? Maybe she could close some schools and hospitals.
I like the idea that anyone evacuated from Dubai should have their passport held for 91 days, thereby making them liable for UK tax.
Hopping on a boat to Dublin with a driving license as ID would circumvent that. So we'd need to seize that too.
EXC: My Iran deep dive, which the Telegraph has splashed on this morning 🚨Starmer wanted to let the US use Dieo Garcia to attack Iranian missile sites last Friday. The defence secretary John Healey supported him at the NSC. But his ministers, led by 'petulant' Ed Miliband, stopped him 🚨Chief of the Defence staff had to tell the Americans how to frame their request on Saturday so ministers could agree it on Sunday. 48 hours lost and with it UK credibility with allies 🚨We've have all thought Richard Hermer was the main blockage. Actually it was Milband, Reeves, Cooper and Mahmood. A PM who can't carry his own war cabinet
No suprise, Ed Miliband of course also blocked UK missile strikes on Assad after he gassed a childrens' hospital just over a decade ago as well. Mahmood in the anti block as well so clearly she got as much on the Labour right as though either, same with Reeves and Cooper
You do know EICIPM is not literally true? Nor was he American president.
Comments
‘ China’s government has told the country’s largest oil refiners to suspend exports of diesel and gasoline as an escalating conflict in the Persian Gulf disrupts the arrival of crude from one of the world’s largest producing regions’
https://x.com/business/status/2029399258609094739?s=61
The US can’t protect them and Israel wouldn’t care either way.
Do we have any idea if this is all going to plan or not ?
Initially it was 4 weeks max.
None of this is new. I had a friend who was a submariner in the 1980s. He took a surface ship on a jolly to Stanvanger, a T class sub to Cardiff and then Florida and he spent the remainder of his three years wind surfing on Loch Lomond.
https://x.com/garyswilkinson/status/2029194511516127329?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
Hmm. May be worth it for trading.
He was also out of order when he failed to answer her question and made a public statement about relief flights out of the region to deflect the question
Anyway talking of poor behavior
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/video-zebra/strictly-stars-dance-with-mps-in-parliament/a/139083923.html
It is very common for natural gas shipping companies to move shipments around. You may have contracted a shipment from Qatar, and you may end up with one from PNG or Australia or the US. The contracts you sign allow the shippers to substitute identical CH4 molecules. (Just as the oil that comes out of a pipeline is not necessarily from the field you bought it from.)
And the shipping companies -who have daily costs per vessel of at least $40,000- will be constantly trying to save a day here or a day there, because that's serious money.
Now it’s like a street market that floats.
I am surprised that they did not detect the submarine
And when will you condem the Iranian regime for slaughtering 40,000 of their own people just a few months ago ?
Video report from What 's Going on with Shipping:
https://youtu.be/ruOkuy3Tqv0?t=1218
https://x.com/formularacers_/status/2029351962194366961
Did it not occur to any of them that it might be useful to have assets in region, or at least ready to deploy, even if only to help evacuate/humanitarian relief/show the flag?
We actually have a coherent strategy, and a blue-water navy is a necessary part of it. But we're trying to deliver that strategy on an inadequate budget.
The solution isn't to start hacking away at key capabilities — with the carriers first in line — just to make the numbers work. That just turns defence planning into a zero-sum game.
Sums the whole thing up really. As much as people want to do some post-hoc justification, this is ultimately a war for the bantz. The brief and extremely late attempt to come up with a 45-minute nuclear style excuse was particularly pathetic (and look at those on PB who lapped it up). Since then they've tried "holy war" (with US commanders using that as a justification in the field), and now they are stating it was based on Trump's "feelings".
EXC: My Iran deep dive, which the Telegraph has splashed on this morning
🚨Starmer wanted to let the US use Dieo Garcia to attack Iranian missile sites last Friday. The defence secretary John Healey supported him at the NSC. But his ministers, led by 'petulant' Ed Miliband, stopped him
🚨Chief of the Defence staff had to tell the Americans how to frame their request on Saturday so ministers could agree it on Sunday. 48 hours lost and with it UK credibility with allies
🚨We've have all thought Richard Hermer was the main blockage. Actually it was Milband, Reeves, Cooper and Mahmood. A PM who can't carry his own war cabinet
FT comments section this morning - saying what everyone else is thinking, right?
https://bsky.app/profile/neil-lewis.bsky.social/post/3mgcatd5ud225
Europe generally does not have a willingness to be as ruthless. I do not at present see a European country sinking an Iranian ship that is immediately at the end of ab international fleet review organised by India involving about 20 countries.
The push-pull in NATO etc is as much about political will as it is about capability.
As I see it, the Trump regime and the USA armed forces would in principle be perfectly willing to do a Venezuela type operation in a European or NATO country if they thought it necessary.
It's very hard to argue that this ship presented any imminent threat, if any at all.
If, as has also been suggested, it's about regime change, or lifting the oppression the regime has visited on its own citizens, then it has no bearing on that either.
Of course if you're saying it's fine for the US just to kill as many people as possible, and it shouldn't bother us, then it's consistent with that position.
But that's not something I can condone.
One reason for using a submarine might be to definitely identify the target. Also, guided torpedos are more likely not to swan off to the horizon and sink something else.
Sinking the wrong navies ship might be seen as rude.
Thankfully we have the iron chancellor Reeves putting a stop to vanity projects. (I'm only half-kidding - the fight back against the new helicopter order does suggest some ice at the Treasury).
Let’s not worry about Covid, porridge dribbling out of the ears zombie madness has gone viral.
https://x.com/millerstream/status/2029105557911834886?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
Also Trumps whinge about allies not being supportive of his Epstein War, when just weeks ago he was deriding British and other nations commitments in Afghanistan.
We now have 13, several of which are in long-term refit for "fundamental problems" - as you say.
Vibrations are coming from Honda’s engine so not exactly an easy fix
https://x.com/ticerichard/status/2029458496060563710
Can I ask the pea brained right wing lunatics on here? What is the fucking pointing this illegal war?
Even if you accept the war is justified (which is some way from clear), this was unnecessary to the aims most people attribute to it (though what those aims are is also unclear).
That doesn't mean the Navy isn't under-funded - it is.
And that doesn't mean that it doesn't waste money, clearly it does.
They also have a long memory of being betrayed, not least by Trump 45 in Syria.
They did it because they could.
Defence spending is an enormous concern. Where is the money coming from? There needs to be an income tax and or wealth tax surcharge which, you are right, Reeves has not budgeted for. But why do we find ourselves so far out to see ( oor rather, the opposite)? Austerity, Brexit, and Boris Johnson.
I know she doesn't have to find the money, so she can say what she likes, but where does Kemi's uptick in Defence spending come from? Maybe she could close some schools and hospitals.
And we are running an evacuation Operation - I'm hearing of people from the USA who feel abandoned, their regional embassies etc starting to be pulled. You cannot evacuate 250k people from Dubai with the RN or the RAF.
If there is a task that we would need to do with the RN out there, it will be escorting shipping through Hormuz with other NATO countries, and Europe is better equipped for that than the USA - we have far more escorts, and fewer carriers needing 3 or 4 each to protect them.
The USA refused to run such an operation, but have just reverse ferreted on that one:
https://www.twz.com/sea/trumps-plan-to-escort-ships-through-strait-of-hormuz-would-put-u-s-navy-warships-in-the-crosshairs
So no need to panic now
When do we start to panic ?
Sri Lanka is trying to “safeguard lives” on another Iranian ship off its coast, the country’s cabinet spokesperson said.
The ship was in the economic zone beyond Sri Lanka’s territorial waters, Nalinda Jayatissa added.
“We are doing our utmost to safeguard lives,” he said, according to Reuters news agency..
NEW THREAD
Keir can differentiate himself from "Trump's Yes Woman" and Kemi can differentiate herself from "Up Trump's Anus Nigel" further to her right.
But neither will be quite so unobfuscated !
I can believe Kemi didn’t do well
On ww2 Germany, yes, after Norway, the Kriegsmarine had hardly any operational surface ships left. However, since the Nazis had invested so much in heavy cruisers or pocket battleships, almost none of which did anything of any military significance before being sunk or trapped in port, it did not really matter.
This is of course what some question about our own military planning. Labour might have ended Tory defence cuts but placed a huge bet on aircraft carriers for which we cannot afford aircraft, and for which we have not got sufficient support ships (at least by US Navy standards) and which are intended to police trade routes which are under American protection already. Pax Americana has long replaced Pax Britannica, the current White House incumbent notwithstanding.
The EU stuff is utter bollocks and a conspiracy theory.
A state of effectively unrestricted war exists between the USA and Iran. Iran should expect their military assets to be subject to attack wherever they are in the world and there's absolutely no question whatsoever that they'd do the same if they had a similar opportunity - they are even randomly attacking countries that have nothing to do with it.
She wouldn't give Trump a blank cheque but she would allow him to use our bases to start a war without seeing the evidence.
Beyond stupid.
Iran has vowed to attack any ship in the Straits of Hormuz and has been fighting a proxy war for years across the whole region, including sponsoring terrorist attacks of Hezbollah and Hamas, proxies in Yemen, and indiscrimately targetting ships in the Red Sea and around the Horn of Africa.
So you can get off your high-horse.
It will be hard to know if they are acting under duress.