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One party has form for ousting leaders, the other less so – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,936
edited 8:41AM in General
One party has form for ousting leaders, the other less so – politicalbetting.com

As I write this it feels like that Sir Keir Starmer is more screwed than Bonnie Blue and that we are approaching the end of his premiership soon but history suggests otherwise.

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Comments

  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 247
    5/2 both looks a cracking bet!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,386
    @davidallengreen.bsky.social‬

    Now the King's Evil Counsellor is deposed we shall be govern'd well.

    https://bsky.app/profile/davidallengreen.bsky.social/post/3meeauqdsnk2k
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,386
    OT, I didn't watch the Superb Owl last night, but I see this morning that the Mad King hated it :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,501
    Scott_xP said:

    OT, I didn't watch the Superb Owl last night, but I see this morning that the Mad King hated it :)

    The Super Bowl's ok, but the Magnificent Colander is far better.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,002
    edited 8:05AM
    For my Curiosity of the Day, here is the Archangel Michael in Black Shorts. Very Farage.


    (It is an Ikon of Holy Michael the Archangel by Kallinikos, from Stavrovouni Monastery, Holy Cross Mountain in Cyprus). It is dated top the first 3rd of the 20C. I'm not sure what those calf-bindings are about.

    I came across it on a liturgy website called Labarum maintained by a friend-acquaintance who is a retired Military Chaplain.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,417
    Reading the header, I think HYUFD had hacked TSE's account!
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,466
    Blair was ousted
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,554

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Those who make money/flatter their egos from news benefit from telling us this gs are bad and about to get worse so stay tuned.

    Plus those who think they should be running the country instead.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 247

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Those who make money/flatter their egos from news benefit from telling us this gs are bad and about to get worse so stay tuned.

    Plus those who think they should be running the country instead.
    Cuban Missile Crisis 1962
    Falklands War 1982
    Various Gulf Wars
    Black Wednesday
    Global Economic Crash
    Truss Economic crash
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,105

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    You should have saved your typing finger. 'What a load of rubbish" says all that needs saying. No analysis necessary
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,467

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    How about a nice pic to prompt your memory.


  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,467
    MattW said:

    For my Curiosity of the Day, here is the Archangel Michael in Black Shorts. Very Farage.


    (It is an Ikon of Holy Michael the Archangel by Kallinikos, from Stavrovouni Monastery, Holy Cross Mountain in Cyprus). It is dated top the first 3rd of the 20C. I'm not sure what those calf-bindings are about.

    I came across it on a liturgy website called Labarum maintained by a friend-acquaintance who is a retired Military Chaplain.

    Was that the reason for the schism - what to wear?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,545
    Scott_xP said:

    @davidallengreen.bsky.social‬

    Now the King's Evil Counsellor is deposed we shall be govern'd well.

    https://bsky.app/profile/davidallengreen.bsky.social/post/3meeauqdsnk2k

    We got rid of Vader but, somehow, Palpatine remains...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,105
    edited 8:15AM
    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,053
    edited 8:17AM
    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    Is this the 2026 verasion of Rogers 2007 classic "It'll all be forgotten abut in a few weeks" post ?

    20 years next September since Northern Rock and we STILL remember :D
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,868
    edited 8:21AM
    MattW said:

    For my Curiosity of the Day, here is the Archangel Michael in Black Shorts. Very Farage.


    (It is an Ikon of Holy Michael the Archangel by Kallinikos, from Stavrovouni Monastery, Holy Cross Mountain in Cyprus). It is dated top the first 3rd of the 20C. I'm not sure what those calf-bindings are about.

    I came across it on a liturgy website called Labarum maintained by a friend-acquaintance who is a retired Military Chaplain.

    I don't think they are shorts, it is a blue tunic, you can see the sleeves and the cloth hanging down behind the legs. He appears to be wearing foot cloths rather than socks or stockings (the Soviet army favoured them until recently) but the criss cross bits are strange I agree
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 247
    The battle within Labour will be NOT IF but WHEN!

    I think Starmer is an honourable man and I have no doubt he is a LABOUR man.

    Without McSweeney I think we will see a significant change in his mindset.

    I believe he will by now have decided himself, for his family ; for his Party, and the Country in that order that it is time to let go.

    The timescale though I believe is what he will want to and try to dictate and he will hope that he can sway opinion to that option.

    I think he will personally want to take responsibility for by election , council and Welsh and Scottish losses, that way he gives his successor a cleaner slate.

    I also believe that he will want a timetable that helps Labour to take time and to find the best option and to ensure the hard fought economic gains that WILL BE SHOWING LATER in the year are maintained and not lost and I think for that reason he will by the end of this week make a formal announcement and seek to be setting in motion a departure by early June.

    Timing wise he takes the flak, timing wise he may actually improve Labour results if a small % believe they are voting for representatives "post Starmer"

    The election of a new Labour Leader and therefore PM just before the summer recess gives all time to "bed in" and to hit the ground running in September.

    My personal belief is that he will prefer given her loyalty Rayner to Burnham or Streeting. He can't ot won't of course endorse anyone.

    Its key I think that Darren Jones is installed as Chancellor, and most key roles stay in place with the exception of Reeves (I believe time will show her to have been far better economically but not politically than she is given credit for) and Lammy (who is useless) that many personnel will continue progress being made. What Streeting ends up with I'm not sure, he has an uber marginal seat besides!
  • eekeek Posts: 32,518
    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can remove the free time bit - social media or news trying to maximize viewing time is not good by itself
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,539
    Scott_xP said:

    OT, I didn't watch the Superb Owl last night, but I see this morning that the Mad King hated it :)

    Meanwhile ‘Zoran’ Sarwar is clutching at an NFL straw in his attempt to become FM.

    https://x.com/scottishlabour/status/2020571695614984572?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,470
    Ratters said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    If anything the problem now is things are just a bit shit, but not at crisis levels, and with very little optimism it'll improve.

    So in the interests of balance I'll have a go:

    1) Economic growth is positive. It is weak, but positive, and likely to trend upwards over the next few years - at least on a per capita basis because...
    2) Net migration is being brought under control. It's come down a lot and will move further. There's no doubt the unsustainably high period (almost 1 million per year) would have put a strain on capacity in places.
    3) Inflation will soon be back at its 2% target and will likely remain there for the foreseeable future. There is a reason high inflation features heavily in the economic 'misery index'. Moving back to stable prices will help.
    4) Unemployment really did not rise very high during the period of fiscal tightening. It should fall back down we low inflation allows rates to drift lower still.

    I won't deny there's lots more negative to say, and much of the above has very little to do with the government's actions but just a part of the economic cycle, but the idea that we're in some unique crisis is clearly wrong.
    Actually we ARE in a profoundly unique moment. I wouldn’t quite call it a crisis but it is potentially catastrophic


  • ajbajb Posts: 174
    Scott_xP said:

    @davidallengreen.bsky.social‬

    Now the King's Evil Counsellor is deposed we shall be govern'd well.

    https://bsky.app/profile/davidallengreen.bsky.social/post/3meeauqdsnk2k

    Indeed. It is not sufficient to cast out Wormtongue, you also need a Gandalf to revitalise the king, and give him the courage not to follow the enemies' policies. I don't see that happening to Starmer.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,518
    Ratters said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    If anything the problem now is things are just a bit shit, but not at crisis levels, and with very little optimism it'll improve.

    So in the interests of balance I'll have a go:

    1) Economic growth is positive. It is weak, but positive, and likely to trend upwards over the next few years - at least on a per capita basis because...
    2) Net migration is being brought under control. It's come down a lot and will move further. There's no doubt the unsustainably high period (almost 1 million per year) would have put a strain on capacity in places.
    3) Inflation will soon be back at its 2% target and will likely remain there for the foreseeable future. There is a reason high inflation features heavily in the economic 'misery index'. Moving back to stable prices will help.
    4) Unemployment really did not rise very high during the period of monetary tightening. It should fall back down we low inflation allows rates to drift lower still.

    I won't deny there's lots more negative to say, and much of the above has very little to do with the government's actions but just a part of the economic cycle, but the idea that we're in some unique crisis is clearly wrong.
    On 4 - I’m not so sure - firstly I’m not seeing IT projects get kicked off (and there are usually IT projects kicking off because you want to replace old systems with new ones).

    Secondly youth and graduate unemployment is sky high and shows little signs of dropping
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,554
    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    Older people spiralling into melancholy isn't that irrational. Other responses to age and impending decrepitude are probably wiser, whether it's Nunc Dimittis or racing tin baths down dales. But it's rational to rage against the dying of the light.

    But the media amplification is a harmful mutation.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,244
    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can remove the free time bit - social media or news trying to maximize viewing time is not good by itself
    Hilary Benn wouldn't even be a good choice to mop up a spillage
    Monday morning and McSweeney, with his Glasman and Mandelson influences, is gone. A faint chance of Labour setting out it's own vision rather than mimicking Reform.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,002
    edited 8:31AM

    MattW said:

    For my Curiosity of the Day, here is the Archangel Michael in Black Shorts. Very Farage.


    (It is an Ikon of Holy Michael the Archangel by Kallinikos, from Stavrovouni Monastery, Holy Cross Mountain in Cyprus). It is dated top the first 3rd of the 20C. I'm not sure what those calf-bindings are about.

    I came across it on a liturgy website called Labarum maintained by a friend-acquaintance who is a retired Military Chaplain.

    I don't think they are shorts, it is a blue tunic, you can see the sleeves and the cloth hanging down behind the legs. He appears to be wearing foot cloths rather than socks or stockings (the Soviet army favoured them until recently) but the criss cross bits are strange I agree
    Quite possibly, but close enough for a Monday morning quip :wink: .

    The criss-cross bits are leg bindings from Greek tradition, a "Kynodesme", as seen on I think the Evzones, who are the ceremonial Greek Presidential Guard (the ones with the prominent toes on their shoes), as seen here:
    https://www.thisisathens.org/arts-entertainment/sightseeing/the-greek-evzones

    I'm sure there's a Mark Felton about it somewhere.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,579
    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,774
    edited 8:34AM

    MattW said:

    For my Curiosity of the Day, here is the Archangel Michael in Black Shorts. Very Farage.


    (It is an Ikon of Holy Michael the Archangel by Kallinikos, from Stavrovouni Monastery, Holy Cross Mountain in Cyprus). It is dated top the first 3rd of the 20C. I'm not sure what those calf-bindings are about.

    I came across it on a liturgy website called Labarum maintained by a friend-acquaintance who is a retired Military Chaplain.

    I don't think they are shorts, it is a blue tunic, you can see the sleeves and the cloth hanging down behind the legs. He appears to be wearing foot cloths rather than socks or stockings (the Soviet army favoured them until recently) but the criss cross bits are strange I agree
    Cross garters the inspiration for Shakespeare's Malvolio?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,002
    Battlebus said:

    MattW said:

    For my Curiosity of the Day, here is the Archangel Michael in Black Shorts. Very Farage.


    (It is an Ikon of Holy Michael the Archangel by Kallinikos, from Stavrovouni Monastery, Holy Cross Mountain in Cyprus). It is dated top the first 3rd of the 20C. I'm not sure what those calf-bindings are about.

    I came across it on a liturgy website called Labarum maintained by a friend-acquaintance who is a retired Military Chaplain.

    Was that the reason for the schism - what to wear?
    No. It was like the Conservative Party - who gets to be boss framed as an issue of principle !
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,703
    Leon said:

    Reading yesterday’s thread on a lazy Bangkok afternoon I am slightly choked when I see what Ms @Cyclefree has written

    My god. My heart goes out to you @Cyclefree

    Amen to that.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,773
    eek said:

    Ratters said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    If anything the problem now is things are just a bit shit, but not at crisis levels, and with very little optimism it'll improve.

    So in the interests of balance I'll have a go:

    1) Economic growth is positive. It is weak, but positive, and likely to trend upwards over the next few years - at least on a per capita basis because...
    2) Net migration is being brought under control. It's come down a lot and will move further. There's no doubt the unsustainably high period (almost 1 million per year) would have put a strain on capacity in places.
    3) Inflation will soon be back at its 2% target and will likely remain there for the foreseeable future. There is a reason high inflation features heavily in the economic 'misery index'. Moving back to stable prices will help.
    4) Unemployment really did not rise very high during the period of monetary tightening. It should fall back down we low inflation allows rates to drift lower still.

    I won't deny there's lots more negative to say, and much of the above has very little to do with the government's actions but just a part of the economic cycle, but the idea that we're in some unique crisis is clearly wrong.
    On 4 - I’m not so sure - firstly I’m not seeing IT projects get kicked off (and there are usually IT projects kicking off because you want to replace old systems with new ones).

    Secondly youth and graduate unemployment is sky high and shows little signs of dropping
    Unemployment is a lagging indicator, and youth unemployment is always hit worst when it rises. First we need price stability, then monetary easing (beyond simply neutral levels) then employment improves. We are still at step 1 of the process.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,703
    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    I’m inclined to agree with you. It’s a pretty low bar but you’re right.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,254
    Scotland on course to be the new Denmark.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/scorecard/e-233413
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,774
    Battlebus said:

    MattW said:

    For my Curiosity of the Day, here is the Archangel Michael in Black Shorts. Very Farage.


    (It is an Ikon of Holy Michael the Archangel by Kallinikos, from Stavrovouni Monastery, Holy Cross Mountain in Cyprus). It is dated top the first 3rd of the 20C. I'm not sure what those calf-bindings are about.

    I came across it on a liturgy website called Labarum maintained by a friend-acquaintance who is a retired Military Chaplain.

    Was that the reason for the schism - what to wear?
    Thought for the day.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,467
    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @davidallengreen.bsky.social‬

    Now the King's Evil Counsellor is deposed we shall be govern'd well.

    https://bsky.app/profile/davidallengreen.bsky.social/post/3meeauqdsnk2k

    We got rid of Vader but, somehow, Palpatine remains...
    The medievals did it best.

    https://www.susanhigginbotham.com/posts/680-years-ago-today-in-hereford/amp/
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,355
    edited 8:41AM

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,331
    edited 8:42AM
    This guy has a valid work permit, an application for a green card, no criminal record, he's done everything right by the rules and yet ICE has held him in detention for five months in inhumane conditions.

    I don't get it. What is to be gained by this?

    I can understand it when it comes to immigrants from South America. There's a racist logic to it, even if I don't like it. But even judged by its own logic I can't understand this.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/us/2026/02/09/absolute-hell-irish-man-with-valid-us-work-permit-held-by-ice-since-september/
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 23,053
    Brixian59 said:

    The battle within Labour will be NOT IF but WHEN!



    The election of a new Labour Leader and therefore PM just before the summer recess gives all time to "bed in" and to hit the ground running in September.

    An unfortunate turn of prhase that brings back memories of Liz Truss - And, god, did she hit the ground.... 😂
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,868

    MattW said:

    For my Curiosity of the Day, here is the Archangel Michael in Black Shorts. Very Farage.


    (It is an Ikon of Holy Michael the Archangel by Kallinikos, from Stavrovouni Monastery, Holy Cross Mountain in Cyprus). It is dated top the first 3rd of the 20C. I'm not sure what those calf-bindings are about.

    I came across it on a liturgy website called Labarum maintained by a friend-acquaintance who is a retired Military Chaplain.

    I don't think they are shorts, it is a blue tunic, you can see the sleeves and the cloth hanging down behind the legs. He appears to be wearing foot cloths rather than socks or stockings (the Soviet army favoured them until recently) but the criss cross bits are strange I agree
    Cross garters the inspiration for Shakespeare's Malvolio?
    Cross garters are normally reckoned to be an artistic attempt to render leg-bindings that are rather more like puttees. They are then an entirely more practical item of clothing. But as this artist can clearly do realistic leg-bindings they do look suspiciously like cross-garters
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,774
    Leon said:

    Ratters said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    If anything the problem now is things are just a bit shit, but not at crisis levels, and with very little optimism it'll improve.

    So in the interests of balance I'll have a go:

    1) Economic growth is positive. It is weak, but positive, and likely to trend upwards over the next few years - at least on a per capita basis because...
    2) Net migration is being brought under control. It's come down a lot and will move further. There's no doubt the unsustainably high period (almost 1 million per year) would have put a strain on capacity in places.
    3) Inflation will soon be back at its 2% target and will likely remain there for the foreseeable future. There is a reason high inflation features heavily in the economic 'misery index'. Moving back to stable prices will help.
    4) Unemployment really did not rise very high during the period of fiscal tightening. It should fall back down we low inflation allows rates to drift lower still.

    I won't deny there's lots more negative to say, and much of the above has very little to do with the government's actions but just a part of the economic cycle, but the idea that we're in some unique crisis is clearly wrong.
    Actually we ARE in a profoundly unique moment. I wouldn’t quite call it a crisis but it is potentially catastrophic


    Either AI delivers on its promise - and vast numbers of people with great brains have to train as undertakers or something AI an't do. Or AI is a massively overhyped concept whose bubble is all that stopping the world economy - but especially America's - crashing in a way the relives the Great Depression.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,470
    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    I’m inclined to agree with you. It’s a pretty low bar but you’re right.
    It’s that rare thing. A mildly interesting and insightful comment from @Roger even if he over eggs it

    So let’s play the game. Setting aside actual policies and partisan bias, is there anyone at all in British politics who seems like they could be a better prime minister than Starmer?

    Yes, clearly. Burnham, Davey, Badenoch, Jenrick and many others - they would not make Starmer’s terrible and inexplicable decisions. Like Chagos. Like the stupid u turns. Like appointing Mandelson

    The better question is this: is there anyone out there who would make a GOOD prime minister - up there in the upper ranks. Able to pull Britain out of its depressing rut?

    That’s much harder. Farage is probably the most skilful politician in the land but I seriously doubt he’s got economic policies to save us

    Anyone else?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,774
    GIN1138 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    The battle within Labour will be NOT IF but WHEN!



    The election of a new Labour Leader and therefore PM just before the summer recess gives all time to "bed in" and to hit the ground running in September.

    An unfortunate turn of prhase that brings back memories of Liz Truss - And, god, did she hit the ground.... 😂
    The ultimate political face-plant.

    We will never see it's like again.

    (Although....Angela Rayner...?)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,579
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,774

    Scotland on course to be the new Denmark.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/scorecard/e-233413

    What, Trump's got his eye on...St Kilda?
  • eekeek Posts: 32,518

    This guy has a valid work permit, an application for a green card, no criminal record, he's done everything right by the rules and yet ICE has held him in detention for five months in inhumane conditions.

    I don't get it. What is to be gained by this?

    I can understand it when it comes to immigrants from South America. There's a racist logic to it, even if I don't like it. But even judged by its own logic I can't understand this.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/us/2026/02/09/absolute-hell-irish-man-with-valid-us-work-permit-held-by-ice-since-september/

    If you don’t want the rules to look racist pick on some white people as well.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,595
    Leon said:

    Ratters said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    If anything the problem now is things are just a bit shit, but not at crisis levels, and with very little optimism it'll improve.

    So in the interests of balance I'll have a go:

    1) Economic growth is positive. It is weak, but positive, and likely to trend upwards over the next few years - at least on a per capita basis because...
    2) Net migration is being brought under control. It's come down a lot and will move further. There's no doubt the unsustainably high period (almost 1 million per year) would have put a strain on capacity in places.
    3) Inflation will soon be back at its 2% target and will likely remain there for the foreseeable future. There is a reason high inflation features heavily in the economic 'misery index'. Moving back to stable prices will help.
    4) Unemployment really did not rise very high during the period of fiscal tightening. It should fall back down we low inflation allows rates to drift lower still.

    I won't deny there's lots more negative to say, and much of the above has very little to do with the government's actions but just a part of the economic cycle, but the idea that we're in some unique crisis is clearly wrong.
    Actually we ARE in a profoundly unique moment. I wouldn’t quite call it a crisis but it is potentially catastrophic


    The distinctive nature of the situation now, which the UK can't confine to home, is the number of institutions/governments etc who have major cracks in them, and happening so quickly. In the UK, we have not begun to reckon with the chance of both Lab and Con becoming third rate powers.

    A by election soon looks like being Reform v Green with Lab, Con and LD as onlookers. The last event was PC v Reform with Lab, Con and LD as onlookers.

    Internationally, with luck we have headed off a USA invasion of NATO territory. For now.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,838

    GIN1138 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    The battle within Labour will be NOT IF but WHEN!



    The election of a new Labour Leader and therefore PM just before the summer recess gives all time to "bed in" and to hit the ground running in September.

    An unfortunate turn of prhase that brings back memories of Liz Truss - And, god, did she hit the ground.... 😂
    The ultimate political face-plant.

    We will never see it's like again.

    (Although....Angela Rayner...?)
    Surely the MPs are not going to nominate her?

    I know she was popular with the membership, but was forced to resign only a couple of months ago over her inability to keep her own household finances in order.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,355

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    What's ageist about it? I've provided a nice graph with the data, and you provided the quote: I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,774
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    I’m inclined to agree with you. It’s a pretty low bar but you’re right.
    It’s that rare thing. A mildly interesting and insightful comment from @Roger even if he over eggs it

    So let’s play the game. Setting aside actual policies and partisan bias, is there anyone at all in British politics who seems like they could be a better prime minister than Starmer?

    Yes, clearly. Burnham, Davey, Badenoch, Jenrick and many others - they would not make Starmer’s terrible and inexplicable decisions. Like Chagos. Like the stupid u turns. Like appointing Mandelson

    The better question is this: is there anyone out there who would make a GOOD prime minister - up there in the upper ranks. Able to pull Britain out of its depressing rut?

    That’s much harder. Farage is probably the most skilful politician in the land but I seriously doubt he’s got economic policies to save us

    Anyone else?
    Until tested, most politicians can be expected to fail. Would anyone have thought Maggie Thatcher could deliver that transformation of the sick man of Europe in say 1977? In 1937, would anyone have had Churchill as the man to defend democracy against Nazism? Flip side, many thought Enoch Powell was the man to do what was required.


  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,331
    On Starmer, I've just read this aphorism.

    "Never take a gamble you're not prepared to lose."

    Wise words as I'm sure the punters would agree. Many have explained Starmer's decision to Mandelson as an understandable gamble, given the occupant if the White House. But it's striking that Starmer has been not at all prepared for losing that gamble.

    Among his many failings he's shown no ability to anticipate the future.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,002

    This guy has a valid work permit, an application for a green card, no criminal record, he's done everything right by the rules and yet ICE has held him in detention for five months in inhumane conditions.

    I don't get it. What is to be gained by this?

    I can understand it when it comes to immigrants from South America. There's a racist logic to it, even if I don't like it. But even judged by its own logic I can't understand this.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/us/2026/02/09/absolute-hell-irish-man-with-valid-us-work-permit-held-by-ice-since-september/

    Trump gets to promote his deranged agenda to his deranged base.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,470

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    It's not ageism to point to a real difference between age groups. The data is there.

    Why are older people much more negative now? Is it simply a partisan thing, where they're unhappy with a Labour government? Is it the media they're consuming?

    There's genuinely something going on.
    I have a sad answer

    Older people can remember when things were better. 20-30 years ago. When the land was calmer and happier. Before the epic levels of migration

    Much of Western Europe has been economically stagnant for two decades while importing millions of people from alien cultures in a disastrous experiment gone horribly wrong

    Older people are old enough to recall the days before the experiment.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,819
    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    If it cheers anyone uo, I can report that a middle-aged man playing padel in Greater Manchester last night managed to hit himself in the face with his own racket, causing a ten minute delay while he waited for the nosebleed to stop.

    Yes, it was me.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,501
    edited 8:54AM
    Sandpit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    The battle within Labour will be NOT IF but WHEN!



    The election of a new Labour Leader and therefore PM just before the summer recess gives all time to "bed in" and to hit the ground running in September.

    An unfortunate turn of prhase that brings back memories of Liz Truss - And, god, did she hit the ground.... 😂
    The ultimate political face-plant.

    We will never see it's like again.

    (Although....Angela Rayner...?)
    Surely the MPs are not going to nominate her?

    I know she was popular with the membership, but was forced to resign only a couple of months ago over her inability to keep her own household finances in order.
    Entirely possible she'd be nominated.

    "The PM's unsuitable and resigned. Quick, let's replace him with someone who was unsuitable as Deputy PM and had to resign!"

    It's in keeping with the backbenchers' juvenile approach to spending. They don't want to actually balance books and run the economy, they just want to throw sweeties to voters so they can feel better about themselves. And left wing economic tomfoolery is very much Rayner's approach.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,579
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    What's ageist about it? I've provided a nice graph with the data, and you provided the quote: I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2
    I have addressed the WW2 comment but read your words which are ageism
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,774
    Sandpit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    The battle within Labour will be NOT IF but WHEN!



    The election of a new Labour Leader and therefore PM just before the summer recess gives all time to "bed in" and to hit the ground running in September.

    An unfortunate turn of prhase that brings back memories of Liz Truss - And, god, did she hit the ground.... 😂
    The ultimate political face-plant.

    We will never see it's like again.

    (Although....Angela Rayner...?)
    Surely the MPs are not going to nominate her?

    I know she was popular with the membership, but was forced to resign only a couple of months ago over her inability to keep her own household finances in order.
    Yer think that'll stop 'em?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,722
    How's this one?

    Keir and Present Danger
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,554

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    It's not ageism to point to a real difference between age groups. The data is there.

    Why are older people much more negative now? Is it simply a partisan thing, where they're unhappy with a Labour government? Is it the media they're consuming?

    There's genuinely something going on.
    I'd go with the changing media market.

    Sky News has a greater duty to its owner (to minimise losses) than it does to its viewers (to accurately reflect the world around us). The gap between them and that Tiktoker lying for clicks is smaller than we want to admit.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,355
    Cookie said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    If it cheers anyone uo, I can report that a middle-aged man playing padel in Greater Manchester last night managed to hit himself in the face with his own racket, causing a ten minute delay while he waited for the nosebleed to stop.

    Yes, it was me.
    Thank you for your service
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,002
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Ratters said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    If anything the problem now is things are just a bit shit, but not at crisis levels, and with very little optimism it'll improve.

    So in the interests of balance I'll have a go:

    1) Economic growth is positive. It is weak, but positive, and likely to trend upwards over the next few years - at least on a per capita basis because...
    2) Net migration is being brought under control. It's come down a lot and will move further. There's no doubt the unsustainably high period (almost 1 million per year) would have put a strain on capacity in places.
    3) Inflation will soon be back at its 2% target and will likely remain there for the foreseeable future. There is a reason high inflation features heavily in the economic 'misery index'. Moving back to stable prices will help.
    4) Unemployment really did not rise very high during the period of fiscal tightening. It should fall back down we low inflation allows rates to drift lower still.

    I won't deny there's lots more negative to say, and much of the above has very little to do with the government's actions but just a part of the economic cycle, but the idea that we're in some unique crisis is clearly wrong.
    Actually we ARE in a profoundly unique moment. I wouldn’t quite call it a crisis but it is potentially catastrophic


    The distinctive nature of the situation now, which the UK can't confine to home, is the number of institutions/governments etc who have major cracks in them, and happening so quickly. In the UK, we have not begun to reckon with the chance of both Lab and Con becoming third rate powers.

    A by election soon looks like being Reform v Green with Lab, Con and LD as onlookers. The last event was PC v Reform with Lab, Con and LD as onlookers.

    Internationally, with luck we have headed off a USA invasion of NATO territory. For now.
    I think Leon is overexcited, as per most of the time.

    If I had to draw an analogy for a period, it would be Mrs Thatcher in approximately 1981, where everything looks gloomy and nothing seems to work.

    For PMs, I can see no credible alternative to SKS in any UK party - maybe Davey but he has no sufficiently substantial base, or Yvette Cooper or even John Healey. I think SKS should hold on (I may be caught out on that!), because even given his timidity the terms of political trade are shifting due to things he has done - it is down to whether the benefits cut through and emerge sufficiently.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,723
    Has Keith cancelled his address to the country today? Reported yesterday as happening, now not happening
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,579
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    It's not ageism to point to a real difference between age groups. The data is there.

    Why are older people much more negative now? Is it simply a partisan thing, where they're unhappy with a Labour government? Is it the media they're consuming?

    There's genuinely something going on.
    I have a sad answer

    Older people can remember when things were better. 20-30 years ago. When the land was calmer and happier. Before the epic levels of migration

    Much of Western Europe has been economically stagnant for two decades while importing millions of people from alien cultures in a disastrous experiment gone horribly wrong

    Older people are old enough to recall the days before the experiment.
    We even had someone at our community council remisincing about the peace and beauty of Leith in the 80s and 90s. You know, the part of Edinburgh [sic] famous for heroin abuse and brutal murders.

    It's more than rose-tinted spectacles at this point.
    I remember Leith in the early 1960s and it was not the most celebrated place in Edinburgh then
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,470
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    It's not ageism to point to a real difference between age groups. The data is there.

    Why are older people much more negative now? Is it simply a partisan thing, where they're unhappy with a Labour government? Is it the media they're consuming?

    There's genuinely something going on.
    I have a sad answer

    Older people can remember when things were better. 20-30 years ago. When the land was calmer and happier. Before the epic levels of migration

    Much of Western Europe has been economically stagnant for two decades while importing millions of people from alien cultures in a disastrous experiment gone horribly wrong

    Older people are old enough to recall the days before the experiment.
    We even had someone at our community council remisincing about the peace and beauty of Leith in the 80s and 90s. You know, the part of Edinburgh [sic] famous for heroin abuse and brutal murders.

    It's more than rose-tinted spectacles at this point.
    Rapes in England and wales have more than quintupled in a decade. We are not imagining this
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,539
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    It's not ageism to point to a real difference between age groups. The data is there.

    Why are older people much more negative now? Is it simply a partisan thing, where they're unhappy with a Labour government? Is it the media they're consuming?

    There's genuinely something going on.
    I have a sad answer

    Older people can remember when things were better. 20-30 years ago. When the land was calmer and happier. Before the epic levels of migration

    Much of Western Europe has been economically stagnant for two decades while importing millions of people from alien cultures in a disastrous experiment gone horribly wrong

    Older people are old enough to recall the days before the experiment.
    ‘Aye, we may have had our industrial base swept away, mass unemployment and our kids turned on to drugs to get away from it all, but we were white and happy.’
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,595
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    I’m inclined to agree with you. It’s a pretty low bar but you’re right.
    It’s that rare thing. A mildly interesting and insightful comment from @Roger even if he over eggs it

    So let’s play the game. Setting aside actual policies and partisan bias, is there anyone at all in British politics who seems like they could be a better prime minister than Starmer?

    Yes, clearly. Burnham, Davey, Badenoch, Jenrick and many others - they would not make Starmer’s terrible and inexplicable decisions. Like Chagos. Like the stupid u turns. Like appointing Mandelson

    The better question is this: is there anyone out there who would make a GOOD prime minister - up there in the upper ranks. Able to pull Britain out of its depressing rut?

    That’s much harder. Farage is probably the most skilful politician in the land but I seriously doubt he’s got economic policies to save us

    Anyone else?
    Doubtful if there is anyone among the MPs. You can't help feeling that among the living, Cameron, Blair, Brown, even May would be better.

    If I was obliged to choose a PM (with free hand to pick the ministerial team and create peers to fill the gaps) from current MPs, I would look at Stride, Benn, Cooper (Y). Worth a look: Darren Jones.

    From a voters perspective, this is hard. The toughest job of the PM as CEO is team creation, building, retention, and being the place and person where the buck stops. This, unlike rhetoric, is a mostly invisible skill, and rare.

    The dismal nail in the Starmer coffin is that today he is PM, yesterday McS resigned because he gave advice (which, look carefully, McS never describes as wrong), while Starmer the decider of the matter has not resigned. The killer in McS resignation is that he described the decision, not the advice, as wrong. Starmer's decision.

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,166
    Leon said:


    Older people can remember when things were better. 20-30 years ago. When the land was calmer and happier. Before the epic levels of migration

    Much of Western Europe has been economically stagnant for two decades while importing millions of people from alien cultures in a disastrous experiment gone horribly wrong

    Older people are old enough to recall the days before the experiment.

    Big Nige knows exactly how to massage an enlarged boomer prostate with a nicotine stained finger.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,470
    Middle aged German guy by the swimming pool with teeth so white I think they might be somehow electronic
  • berberian_knowsberberian_knows Posts: 142
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    I’m inclined to agree with you. It’s a pretty low bar but you’re right.
    It’s that rare thing. A mildly interesting and insightful comment from @Roger even if he over eggs it

    So let’s play the game. Setting aside actual policies and partisan bias, is there anyone at all in British politics who seems like they could be a better prime minister than Starmer?

    Yes, clearly. Burnham, Davey, Badenoch, Jenrick and many others - they would not make Starmer’s terrible and inexplicable decisions. Like Chagos. Like the stupid u turns. Like appointing Mandelson

    The better question is this: is there anyone out there who would make a GOOD prime minister - up there in the upper ranks. Able to pull Britain out of its depressing rut?

    That’s much harder. Farage is probably the most skilful politician in the land but I seriously doubt he’s got economic policies to save us

    Anyone else?
    The trouble is, it is the f*ckwits of the labour party membership that are going to determine which of the eventual candidates gets handed their absolutely enormous majority. Every candidate will bid more and more bonkers policies to secure members' votes, and anyone mentioning "bond markets" or "prudence" will never get a look in.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 247

    Has Keith cancelled his address to the country today? Reported yesterday as happening, now not happening

    It was never happening

    He is addressing all Labour mps at 6pm
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,722
    Leon said:

    Middle aged German guy by the swimming pool with teeth so white I think they might be somehow electronic

    Jurgen Klopp?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,470

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    I’m inclined to agree with you. It’s a pretty low bar but you’re right.
    It’s that rare thing. A mildly interesting and insightful comment from @Roger even if he over eggs it

    So let’s play the game. Setting aside actual policies and partisan bias, is there anyone at all in British politics who seems like they could be a better prime minister than Starmer?

    Yes, clearly. Burnham, Davey, Badenoch, Jenrick and many others - they would not make Starmer’s terrible and inexplicable decisions. Like Chagos. Like the stupid u turns. Like appointing Mandelson

    The better question is this: is there anyone out there who would make a GOOD prime minister - up there in the upper ranks. Able to pull Britain out of its depressing rut?

    That’s much harder. Farage is probably the most skilful politician in the land but I seriously doubt he’s got economic policies to save us

    Anyone else?
    Until tested, most politicians can be expected to fail. Would anyone have thought Maggie Thatcher could deliver that transformation of the sick man of Europe in say 1977? In 1937, would anyone have had Churchill as the man to defend democracy against Nazism? Flip side, many thought Enoch Powell was the man to do what was required.


    A fair point

    Katie Lam has something about her. But maybe it’s just coz I agree with her on a lot of stuff. She is courageous, I guess

    Mahmood? She talks the talk but if you look at her record she is a clueless woke apparatchik with extra prayer mats

    God it’s a bleak prospect. From left to right
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,470
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:


    Older people can remember when things were better. 20-30 years ago. When the land was calmer and happier. Before the epic levels of migration

    Much of Western Europe has been economically stagnant for two decades while importing millions of people from alien cultures in a disastrous experiment gone horribly wrong

    Older people are old enough to recall the days before the experiment.

    Big Nige knows exactly how to massage an enlarged boomer prostate with a nicotine stained finger.

    Yes. Getting a hint of wood here in soi Nana
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,819
    Leon said:

    Middle aged German guy by the swimming pool with teeth so white I think they might be somehow electronic

    Are you in the Trivago advert?
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 247
    Rent a gob Pritti at ii again.

    Blaming Starmer for not getting Jimmy Lai released

    The Pritti whose Government were in power in 2020 when he was released and did precisely Jack shit for years because they won't communicate with China.

    She should have done her job at the time with Boris, Liz and Rishi.

    Starmer tried, better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all

    Trumps tried no success

    May be he will succeed when he goes to China

  • eekeek Posts: 32,518
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    I’m inclined to agree with you. It’s a pretty low bar but you’re right.
    It’s that rare thing. A mildly interesting and insightful comment from @Roger even if he over eggs it

    So let’s play the game. Setting aside actual policies and partisan bias, is there anyone at all in British politics who seems like they could be a better prime minister than Starmer?

    Yes, clearly. Burnham, Davey, Badenoch, Jenrick and many others - they would not make Starmer’s terrible and inexplicable decisions. Like Chagos. Like the stupid u turns. Like appointing Mandelson

    The better question is this: is there anyone out there who would make a GOOD prime minister - up there in the upper ranks. Able to pull Britain out of its depressing rut?

    That’s much harder. Farage is probably the most skilful politician in the land but I seriously doubt he’s got economic policies to save us

    Anyone else?
    Until tested, most politicians can be expected to fail. Would anyone have thought Maggie Thatcher could deliver that transformation of the sick man of Europe in say 1977? In 1937, would anyone have had Churchill as the man to defend democracy against Nazism? Flip side, many thought Enoch Powell was the man to do what was required.


    A fair point

    Katie Lam has something about her. But maybe it’s just coz I agree with her on a lot of stuff. She is courageous, I guess

    Mahmood? She talks the talk but if you look at her record she is a clueless woke apparatchik with extra prayer mats

    God it’s a bleak prospect. From left to right
    Because no one sane wants the grief that comes with being a politician in a world of social media
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,470

    Leon said:

    Middle aged German guy by the swimming pool with teeth so white I think they might be somehow electronic

    Jurgen Klopp?
    It’s definitely the Klopp *orthodontic aesthetic*
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,149
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    I’m inclined to agree with you. It’s a pretty low bar but you’re right.
    It’s that rare thing. A mildly interesting and insightful comment from @Roger even if he over eggs it

    So let’s play the game. Setting aside actual policies and partisan bias, is there anyone at all in British politics who seems like they could be a better prime minister than Starmer?

    Yes, clearly. Burnham, Davey, Badenoch, Jenrick and many others - they would not make Starmer’s terrible and inexplicable decisions. Like Chagos. Like the stupid u turns. Like appointing Mandelson

    The better question is this: is there anyone out there who would make a GOOD prime minister - up there in the upper ranks. Able to pull Britain out of its depressing rut?

    That’s much harder. Farage is probably the most skilful politician in the land but I seriously doubt he’s got economic policies to save us

    Anyone else?
    Until tested, most politicians can be expected to fail. Would anyone have thought Maggie Thatcher could deliver that transformation of the sick man of Europe in say 1977? In 1937, would anyone have had Churchill as the man to defend democracy against Nazism? Flip side, many thought Enoch Powell was the man to do what was required.


    A fair point

    Katie Lam has something about her. But maybe it’s just coz I agree with her on a lot of stuff. She is courageous, I guess

    Mahmood? She talks the talk but if you look at her record she is a clueless woke apparatchik with extra prayer mats

    God it’s a bleak prospect. From left to right
    Ive been trying to think of who i can suggest to send you into the biggest apolplexy.
    Clearly the coming man is Kit Malthouse. Lump on, punters, lump on!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,641
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    It's not ageism to point to a real difference between age groups. The data is there.

    Why are older people much more negative now? Is it simply a partisan thing, where they're unhappy with a Labour government? Is it the media they're consuming?

    There's genuinely something going on.
    I have a sad answer

    Older people can remember when things were better. 20-30 years ago. When the land was calmer and happier. Before the epic levels of migration

    Much of Western Europe has been economically stagnant for two decades while importing millions of people from alien cultures in a disastrous experiment gone horribly wrong

    Older people are old enough to recall the days before the experiment.
    We even had someone at our community council remisincing about the peace and beauty of Leith in the 80s and 90s. You know, the part of Edinburgh [sic] famous for heroin abuse and brutal murders.

    It's more than rose-tinted spectacles at this point.
    Rapes in England and wales have more than quintupled in a decade. We are not imagining this
    Reports and prosecutions have risen.

    Ask @DavidL - he's prosecuting historic cases non-stop. And they aren't the perpetrators you are looking for.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,466
    Brixian59 said:

    Has Keith cancelled his address to the country today? Reported yesterday as happening, now not happening

    It was never happening

    He is addressing all Labour mps at 6pm
    Too cowardly to address the nation.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,467
    edited 9:14AM
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    I’m inclined to agree with you. It’s a pretty low bar but you’re right.
    It’s that rare thing. A mildly interesting and insightful comment from @Roger even if he over eggs it

    So let’s play the game. Setting aside actual policies and partisan bias, is there anyone at all in British politics who seems like they could be a better prime minister than Starmer?

    Yes, clearly. Burnham, Davey, Badenoch, Jenrick and many others - they would not make Starmer’s terrible and inexplicable decisions. Like Chagos. Like the stupid u turns. Like appointing Mandelson

    The better question is this: is there anyone out there who would make a GOOD prime minister - up there in the upper ranks. Able to pull Britain out of its depressing rut?

    That’s much harder. Farage is probably the most skilful politician in the land but I seriously doubt he’s got economic policies to save us

    Anyone else?
    Until tested, most politicians can be expected to fail. Would anyone have thought Maggie Thatcher could deliver that transformation of the sick man of Europe in say 1977? In 1937, would anyone have had Churchill as the man to defend democracy against Nazism? Flip side, many thought Enoch Powell was the man to do what was required.


    A fair point

    Katie Lam has something about her. But maybe it’s just coz I agree with her on a lot of stuff. She is courageous, I guess

    Mahmood? She talks the talk but if you look at her record she is a clueless woke apparatchik with extra prayer mats

    God it’s a bleak prospect. From left to right
    Mostly, leaders surprise on the downside.

    But, occasionally, (eg Truman, Thatcher, Churchill, Zelensky), you get the reverse.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,343
    Apparently William and Kate being “deeply concerned” by the Epstein files is “Breaking News”
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,466

    How's this one?

    Keir and Present Danger

    Keir today, gone tomorrow.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,149

    Brixian59 said:

    Has Keith cancelled his address to the country today? Reported yesterday as happening, now not happening

    It was never happening

    He is addressing all Labour mps at 6pm
    Too cowardly to address the nation.
    Too irrelevant to address an envelope.
    Be gone you odious cancer and let La Deluge in
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,002
    edited 9:19AM
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    It's not ageism to point to a real difference between age groups. The data is there.

    Why are older people much more negative now? Is it simply a partisan thing, where they're unhappy with a Labour government? Is it the media they're consuming?

    There's genuinely something going on.
    I have a sad answer

    Older people can remember when things were better. 20-30 years ago. When the land was calmer and happier. Before the epic levels of migration

    Much of Western Europe has been economically stagnant for two decades while importing millions of people from alien cultures in a disastrous experiment gone horribly wrong

    Older people are old enough to recall the days before the experiment.
    We even had someone at our community council remisincing about the peace and beauty of Leith in the 80s and 90s. You know, the part of Edinburgh [sic] famous for heroin abuse and brutal murders.

    It's more than rose-tinted spectacles at this point.
    Rapes in England and wales have more than quintupled in a decade. We are not imagining this
    The fivefold increase aiui relates to "reported rape" not "occurrence of rape".

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffencesprevalenceandtrendsenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2025

    For "occurrence of rape", you need the Crime Survey of England and Wales, which does not show such an increase.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,723
    Brixian59 said:

    Has Keith cancelled his address to the country today? Reported yesterday as happening, now not happening

    It was never happening

    He is addressing all Labour mps at 6pm
    Please give us live updates from inside the room.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,910
    Good header TSE. Yes the Tories are notorious for removing leaders who are badly beaten in local elections and/or trail in polls from Thatcher in 1990 to May in 2019 and Boris in 2022 and Truss after her deeply unpopular budget in late 2022.

    Bad by election performances can also see a Tory party leader removed, as IDS discovered after Brent East in 2003.

    Labour however are sentimental with their leaders, even Foot and Brown and Ed Miliband left at a time of their choosing. Blair was not really forgiven by some on the left for not being socialist enough and winning multiple general elections anyway and going to war in Iraq but he still was not formally ousted just pressured to handover to the great Brown. The only time Labour MPs turned on a Labour leader was Corbyn but Labour members re elected him anyway in 2016.

    So yes it is Kemi who is in the greatest danger. If the Tories are third on NEV and seats won in May Tory MPs won't hesitate to VONC Kemi and replace her with Kemi. Starmer though is more likely to be able to go at a time of his choosing, even if Labour were third in May it is not certain Rayner could get the 81 Labour MPs she needs to nominate her to challenge him
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,470

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    There is no one currently better as PM from any party at the moment. Someone might turn up but until they do could the Drama Queens please leave the set.

    I’m inclined to agree with you. It’s a pretty low bar but you’re right.
    It’s that rare thing. A mildly interesting and insightful comment from @Roger even if he over eggs it

    So let’s play the game. Setting aside actual policies and partisan bias, is there anyone at all in British politics who seems like they could be a better prime minister than Starmer?

    Yes, clearly. Burnham, Davey, Badenoch, Jenrick and many others - they would not make Starmer’s terrible and inexplicable decisions. Like Chagos. Like the stupid u turns. Like appointing Mandelson

    The better question is this: is there anyone out there who would make a GOOD prime minister - up there in the upper ranks. Able to pull Britain out of its depressing rut?

    That’s much harder. Farage is probably the most skilful politician in the land but I seriously doubt he’s got economic policies to save us

    Anyone else?
    Until tested, most politicians can be expected to fail. Would anyone have thought Maggie Thatcher could deliver that transformation of the sick man of Europe in say 1977? In 1937, would anyone have had Churchill as the man to defend democracy against Nazism? Flip side, many thought Enoch Powell was the man to do what was required.


    A fair point

    Katie Lam has something about her. But maybe it’s just coz I agree with her on a lot of stuff. She is courageous, I guess

    Mahmood? She talks the talk but if you look at her record she is a clueless woke apparatchik with extra prayer mats

    God it’s a bleak prospect. From left to right
    Ive been trying to think of who i can suggest to send you into the biggest apolplexy.
    Clearly the coming man is Kit Malthouse. Lump on, punters, lump on!
    It will have to be nigel. We are left with no choice but to pin our hopes on a ex-stockbroker buffoon with a good line in saloon bar demagoguery and just one decent policy: on immigration

    Sic Transit Gloria Angliae
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,465
    We are stuck with Skir for the foreseeable. So a practical question arises: can he improve? He'll never move from dud to dude, but could he learn to do politics better or be steered in the right directions? Instead of condemning him for all the U-turns he has made, I think we should recognise that they at least undid some stupid decisions, and his policy flexibility could be turned to advantage. He needs a close and competent team around him, and fortunately they do not need to be Labour MPs where there is a dearth political talent. Mandelson, Campbell and Balls did that for Blair/Brown - that perhaps is the model
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,467

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    It's not ageism to point to a real difference between age groups. The data is there.

    Why are older people much more negative now? Is it simply a partisan thing, where they're unhappy with a Labour government? Is it the media they're consuming?

    There's genuinely something going on.
    Or ... money doesn't buy you happiness.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,237

    Apparently William and Kate being “deeply concerned” by the Epstein files is “Breaking News”

    I find the term breaking news is so over used it doesn't actually mean anything .
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,721

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    It's not ageism to point to a real difference between age groups. The data is there.

    Why are older people much more negative now? Is it simply a partisan thing, where they're unhappy with a Labour government? Is it the media they're consuming?

    There's genuinely something going on.
    Maybe they're just miserable old c**ts?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,470
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    Reflects the polling though, with older people spiralling into a deep and irrational melancholy. Lots of free time + social media is a not a good combination.
    You can critise me as much as you like and disagree with whether this is the worst crisis since WW2 but what is the problem with my suggestion on how to address it ?

    According to Sky journalist this morning some want Starmer to continue to May and take responsibilty for the likely polling disaster but other mps are saying they cannot allow Mandelson and Epstein to continue and need to take action

    I have no problem with people disagreing but suggesting older people spiral into deep and irrational melancholy is pure 'ageism'
    No, it's not. There has been a dramatic divergence in sentiment, and this is going to cause us massive issues because so much of the country's disposable income is now held by older people:


    That is nothing to do with your ageism comment

    Disagree by all means but do not descend into ageism
    It's not ageism to point to a real difference between age groups. The data is there.

    Why are older people much more negative now? Is it simply a partisan thing, where they're unhappy with a Labour government? Is it the media they're consuming?

    There's genuinely something going on.
    I have a sad answer

    Older people can remember when things were better. 20-30 years ago. When the land was calmer and happier. Before the epic levels of migration

    Much of Western Europe has been economically stagnant for two decades while importing millions of people from alien cultures in a disastrous experiment gone horribly wrong

    Older people are old enough to recall the days before the experiment.
    We even had someone at our community council remisincing about the peace and beauty of Leith in the 80s and 90s. You know, the part of Edinburgh [sic] famous for heroin abuse and brutal murders.

    It's more than rose-tinted spectacles at this point.
    Rapes in England and wales have more than quintupled in a decade. We are not imagining this
    The fivefold increase aiui related#s to "reported rape" not "occurrence of rape".

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffencesprevalenceandtrendsenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2025

    For "occurrence of rape", you need the Crime Survey of England and Wales, which does not show such an increase.
    It’s weird that so many Western European countries are reporting the same surge in sexual crimes. I guess they all agreed to change their reporting methodologies in exactly the same same way at some conference back in 2006
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,053
    Ratters said:

    eek said:

    Ratters said:

    FPT, cos I just spent 5 mins typing it:

    Good morning

    I doubt there has been a more depressing time since WW2

    We have a government in crisis led by a leader who has no future though may hang on just continuing the daily pyscho drama

    We await enormous volumns of e mails and whats app messages during Mandelson's time as ambassador with unknown consquences for other labour mps and advisors and unrest with politics by the public

    The real danger is the public voting for Reform or the Greens in a mass protest vote and electing extreme right or left mps wholly unsuitable for public office

    More Epstein files will be realeased as we watch each breaking news fearing what next

    Indeed we could see untold problems with Trump over revelations in our dealing through Mandelson

    I would suggest labour need to lance the boil now and demand Starmer resigns and install a temporary leader to stabiise the party with either John Healey or Hilary Benn being a good call

    Goodness knows how the bond markets will react and letting things drift is not an option

    I had hopes that Starmer would do as he said before the election to promote integrity and accountability into our politics but here we are just over 18 months later with the most unpopular PM in recent hiistory

    This is not about point scoring but a deep desire for labour to steady the ship for all our sakes as anything else is unthinkable

    May wise minds in labour led by many of the women who are so aggrieved prevail

    Good grief Big_G is your memory ok?

    What about:
    - Rationing persisting on into the 1950s
    - Suez Crisis 1956
    - Three-day week & power cuts 1974
    - IMF bail out 1976
    - Winter of Discontent 1979
    - Covid crisis 2020

    To name but a few?

    If anything the problem now is things are just a bit shit, but not at crisis levels, and with very little optimism it'll improve.

    So in the interests of balance I'll have a go:

    1) Economic growth is positive. It is weak, but positive, and likely to trend upwards over the next few years - at least on a per capita basis because...
    2) Net migration is being brought under control. It's come down a lot and will move further. There's no doubt the unsustainably high period (almost 1 million per year) would have put a strain on capacity in places.
    3) Inflation will soon be back at its 2% target and will likely remain there for the foreseeable future. There is a reason high inflation features heavily in the economic 'misery index'. Moving back to stable prices will help.
    4) Unemployment really did not rise very high during the period of monetary tightening. It should fall back down we low inflation allows rates to drift lower still.

    I won't deny there's lots more negative to say, and much of the above has very little to do with the government's actions but just a part of the economic cycle, but the idea that we're in some unique crisis is clearly wrong.
    On 4 - I’m not so sure - firstly I’m not seeing IT projects get kicked off (and there are usually IT projects kicking off because you want to replace old systems with new ones).

    Secondly youth and graduate unemployment is sky high and shows little signs of dropping
    Unemployment is a lagging indicator, and youth unemployment is always hit worst when it rises. First we need price stability, then monetary easing (beyond simply neutral levels) then employment improves. We are still at step 1 of the process.
    Our main problems are not macro - they are micro.

    Our over-regulated and over-taxed economy simply cannot respond to increases in demand because its supply side has been crippled by the government, and, just as important, everybody knows that the moment any sector shows signs of dynamism, the government will be there to strip it and shovel the cash to its client base of welfare and civil service layabouts.

    So no matter how good fiscal and monetary policy is, growth will remain very weak compared to what it should be until we have a public sector that stops treating the private sector like an ATM.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,838

    Sandpit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    The battle within Labour will be NOT IF but WHEN!



    The election of a new Labour Leader and therefore PM just before the summer recess gives all time to "bed in" and to hit the ground running in September.

    An unfortunate turn of prhase that brings back memories of Liz Truss - And, god, did she hit the ground.... 😂
    The ultimate political face-plant.

    We will never see it's like again.

    (Although....Angela Rayner...?)
    Surely the MPs are not going to nominate her?

    I know she was popular with the membership, but was forced to resign only a couple of months ago over her inability to keep her own household finances in order.
    Yer think that'll stop 'em?
    That’s what’s worrying. There’s a lot of backbenchers who are currently heading out at the next election, and might want to roll the dice with a swing to the left at the Green vote.

    We all know how that experiment ends, but the worry is that collectively the Labour MPs don’t.

    The bond market reaction to Liz Truss, will be nothing compared to its reaction to an Angela or Ed_is_crap PM.

    Can’t see either the MPs or the members taking the safe option of a John Healey or Mel Stride, in which case is it better for Starmer to hang on as long as he can before calling an election in the autumn?
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