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An update on Donald 'no more wars' Trump’s chances of winning the Nobel peace prize

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,301
    edited January 3
    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    Tim Marshall on Sky was just saying any of this talk about oil being a motivation is nonsense as Venezuelas oil is on the very poor quality end and US have access to loads. Its not equivalent to the Middle East.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,825
    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    So where does this leave us? (I.e the UK). Europe has been shown to have been totally irrelevant, so I guess our only option is to go along with the US..

    It leaves us seriously adrift. We've cut our ties with Europe and are stuck in a performative alliance with a state acting against our interests.
    Trump's cowardice against Putin is against our interests.

    Not sure how this morning's actions affect our interests either way?
    True. This morning's actions don't materially make the UK's position worse.

    Contrary to your position, the UK as an open, middle ranking, somewhat prosperous country benefits from the rule of law internationally. If the rule of law is gone, it has to deal with the situation it finds itself in, but it doesn't have good cards to play right now, hence the continuing abusive relationship with the United States.
    The rule of law, internationally, hasn’t gone. It never was.
    I disagree, at least as far as the UK's interest is concerned. The UK benefited from a sixty year post War world order and now it no longer does. Hence its suddenly much weakened position internationally.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,301
    edited January 3
    Seems as if when #10 went off for Chrimbo holidays they deactivated the StarmerGPT bot.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,637

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    Tim Marshall on Sky was just saying any of this talk about oil being a motivation is nonsense as Venezuelas oil is on the very poor quality end and US have access to loads. Its not equivalent to the Middle East.
    It’s not. But Cuba rely on Venezuelan oil.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    Maduro lost, in 2024. But, he was able to declare himself the winner.
    According to the National Electoral Council Maduro won 51% of the vote, even if he didn't though it is up to Venezuelans themselves to start the process to remove him
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,365
    Christopher Sabatini, senior fellow for Latin America at Chatham House:

    "But assuming even if there is regime change-of some sort, and it’s by no means clear even if it does happen that it will be democratic-the US’s military action will likely require sustained US engagement of some sort. Will the Trump White House have the stomach for that?"

    More on Guardian live blog
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,682
    Sandpit said:

    If you are China - or Russia for that matter - I’d get you see no harm in ramping up action towards Taiwan or Russia.

    Basically, the US has decided it can do want it want, and the international rule book may as well not exist anymore.

    It's a total humiliation for Putin and a brutal demonstration that Russia is not a military peer of the US.
    Indeed, Russia’s overseas adventures are quickly coming to a close, with the US and China both set to take advantage.

    Their allies around the world now see that they can no longer provide security guarantees, thanks to Putin’s misadventures in Ukraine keeping the whole Russian military much closer to home.
    Not only that, but the last couple of years have shown that their air defence technology simply isn't that good - a BUK air defence system was one of the targets in Caracas - while the Chinese air defence systems Pakistan has performed better in the conflict with India.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951

    Christopher Sabatini, senior fellow for Latin America at Chatham House:

    "But assuming even if there is regime change-of some sort, and it’s by no means clear even if it does happen that it will be democratic-the US’s military action will likely require sustained US engagement of some sort. Will the Trump White House have the stomach for that?"

    More on Guardian live blog

    Who knows ?
    Best wait to see what the mad old fart has to say this afternoon.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,527
    edited January 3
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    How does it give leverage over Canada..
    Venezuela is an alternative source of the heavy oil for refining for which the USA is dependent on Canada. So that undermines one of Canada's cards in countering Trump's trade war.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/how-venezuelan-crude-could-shake-things-up-for-canadian-producers-9.7019971

    (Responding to the other comment off the cuff, I think that Tim Marshall is perhaps not looking at enough detail or context, but I'll have a listen later.)
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,304
    It's hard to have any sympathy with the odious Mr Maduro but frankly I am rather nervous.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    Tim Marshall on Sky was just saying any of this talk about oil being a motivation is nonsense as Venezuelas oil is on the very poor quality end and US have access to loads. Its not equivalent to the Middle East.
    I'd agree that Trump talks nonsense, but here he is saying it's all about the oil.
    https://x.com/davenewworld_2/status/2007372939776405800
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 47,295
    Dura_Ace said:

    Tanks are seen near the presidential palace in Venezuela.
    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/2007408476318728386

    Where did they buy their tanks from, Temu?

    It's a Cadillac and therefore cool.
    Also classic car status. Vietnam era, certainly tech level of the original design. USMPs used them to tool around Saigon in their white helmets.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    'Russia’s Foreign Ministry on Saturday condemned what it called a U.S. act of “armed aggression” against Venezuela, urging restraint and warning against further escalation after a series of explosions rocked the capital Caracas early in the morning.

    “The pretexts cited to justify these actions are untenable. Ideologically driven hostility has prevailed over practical pragmatism and a willingness to build relations based on trust and predictability,” the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

    Moscow, an ally of Venezuela, called for dialogue and said it was ready to support diplomatic efforts.

    “We reaffirm our solidarity with the Venezuelan people and our support for the course pursued by its Bolivarian leadership to defend the country’s national interests and sovereignty,” the Foreign Ministry said.'
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2026/01/03/russia-condemns-us-military-strikes-against-venezuela-a91602
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,058

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    Tim Marshall on Sky was just saying any of this talk about oil being a motivation is nonsense as Venezuelas oil is on the very poor quality end and US have access to loads. Its not equivalent to the Middle East.
    May have the world's largest reserves of hydrocarbons, but much is like boot polish - expensive in energy to extract. Iraq a far more tempting target if you were looking for oil reserves to tie up.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,190

    Farage hedges his bets:

    https://x.com/Nigel_Farage/status/2007405775933845858

    The American actions in Venezuela overnight are unorthodox and contrary to international law — but if they make China and Russia think twice, it may be a good thing.

    I hope the Venezuelan people can now turn a new leaf without Maduro.

    Will Nigel be appearing on RT to promulgate his unorthodox (for him) view of how many times Russia should be thinking?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,935
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    So where does this leave us? (I.e the UK). Europe has been shown to have been totally irrelevant, so I guess our only option is to go along with the US..

    It leaves us seriously adrift. We've cut our ties with Europe and are stuck in a performative alliance with a state acting against our interests.
    Trump's cowardice against Putin is against our interests.

    Not sure how this morning's actions affect our interests either way?
    True. This morning's actions don't materially make the UK's position worse.

    Contrary to your position, the UK as an open, middle ranking, somewhat prosperous country benefits from the rule of law internationally. If the rule of law is gone, it has to deal with the situation it finds itself in, but it doesn't have good cards to play right now, hence the continuing abusive relationship with the United States.
    The rule of law, internationally, hasn’t gone. It never was.
    I disagree, at least as far as the UK's interest is concerned. The UK benefited from a sixty year post War world order and now it no longer does. Hence its suddenly much weakened position internationally.
    And that’s why you opposed the bombing of Belgrade?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    Tim Marshall on Sky was just saying any of this talk about oil being a motivation is nonsense as Venezuelas oil is on the very poor quality end and US have access to loads. Its not equivalent to the Middle East.
    May have the world's largest reserves of hydrocarbons, but much is like boot polish - expensive in energy to extract. Iraq a far more tempting target if you were looking for oil reserves to tie up.
    And how did that go for Bush ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577
    'The US has launched an unprovoked and illegal attack on Venezuela.

    This is a brazen attempt to secure control over Venezuelan natural resources.

    It is an act of war that puts the lives of millions of people at risk — and should be condemned by anyone who believes in sovereignty and international law.'
    https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/2007397883994112062?s=20
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,825

    Christopher Sabatini, senior fellow for Latin America at Chatham House:

    "But assuming even if there is regime change-of some sort, and it’s by no means clear even if it does happen that it will be democratic-the US’s military action will likely require sustained US engagement of some sort. Will the Trump White House have the stomach for that?"

    More on Guardian live blog

    I don't really know anything about Venezuela, but this seems key. It's quite possible Trump will bag the win and let the Venezuelan chips fall where they may. But if he wants particular political outcomes in the country he will have to invest in them and I'm not sure he or the US generally has the appetite for that.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,226
    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    How does it give leverage over Canada..
    Venezuela is an alternative source of the heavy oil for refining for which the USA is dependent on Canada. So that undermines one of Canada's cards in countering Trump's trade war.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/how-venezuelan-crude-could-shake-things-up-for-canadian-producers-9.7019971

    (Responding to the other comment, I think that Tim Marshall is perhaps not looking at the detail, but I'll have a listen later.)
    Not really - How would you get the oil from the east coast to the north mid west where canada's oil is currently used.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,707

    It's hard to have any sympathy with the odious Mr Maduro but frankly I am rather nervous.

    You’re a much nicer guy; you probably don’t need to be listening out for the sound of helicopters
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,301
    HYUFD said:

    'The US has launched an unprovoked and illegal attack on Venezuela.

    This is a brazen attempt to secure control over Venezuelan natural resources.

    It is an act of war that puts the lives of millions of people at risk — and should be condemned by anyone who believes in sovereignty and international law.'
    https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/2007397883994112062?s=20

    There is one thing about Jezza, he is consistent about his views.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    Tim Marshall on Sky was just saying any of this talk about oil being a motivation is nonsense as Venezuelas oil is on the very poor quality end and US have access to loads. Its not equivalent to the Middle East.
    May have the world's largest reserves of hydrocarbons, but much is like boot polish - expensive in energy to extract. Iraq a far more tempting target if you were looking for oil reserves to tie up.
    And how did that go for Bush ?
    Iraq is still free of Saddam and the United States Imports from Iraq were US$7.69 Billion during 2024,
    https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/imports/iraq
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951

    It's hard to have any sympathy with the odious Mr Maduro but frankly I am rather nervous.

    Have you been running a repressive and corrupt regime having fixed an election ?

    If not, you should be OK.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,682

    It's hard to have any sympathy with the odious Mr Maduro but frankly I am rather nervous.

    This is where I am at.

    It's akin to the feeling I'd imagine you'd have when meeting the surgeon before the removal of your appendix, only for them to greet you with a Trump-style monologue while attempting to twirl a scalpel that they drop.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,345

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    So where does this leave us? (I.e the UK). Europe has been shown to have been totally irrelevant, so I guess our only option is to go along with the US..

    It leaves us seriously adrift. We've cut our ties with Europe and are stuck in a performative alliance with a state acting against our interests.
    Trump's cowardice against Putin is against our interests.

    Not sure how this morning's actions affect our interests either way?
    True. This morning's actions don't materially make the UK's position worse.

    Contrary to your position, the UK as an open, middle ranking, somewhat prosperous country benefits from the rule of law internationally. If the rule of law is gone, it has to deal with the situation it finds itself in, but it doesn't have good cards to play right now, hence the continuing abusive relationship with the United States.
    The rule of law, internationally, hasn’t gone. It never was.
    I disagree, at least as far as the UK's interest is concerned. The UK benefited from a sixty year post War world order and now it no longer does. Hence its suddenly much weakened position internationally.
    And that’s why you opposed the bombing of Belgrade?
    Have you ever considered that there may be more conversational options than using whataboutery every single time?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,019

    Sandpit said:

    If you are China - or Russia for that matter - I’d get you see no harm in ramping up action towards Taiwan or Russia.

    Basically, the US has decided it can do want it want, and the international rule book may as well not exist anymore.

    It's a total humiliation for Putin and a brutal demonstration that Russia is not a military peer of the US.
    Indeed, Russia’s overseas adventures are quickly coming to a close, with the US and China both set to take advantage.

    Their allies around the world now see that they can no longer provide security guarantees, thanks to Putin’s misadventures in Ukraine keeping the whole Russian military much closer to home.
    Not only that, but the last couple of years have shown that their air defence technology simply isn't that good - a BUK air defence system was one of the targets in Caracas - while the Chinese air defence systems Pakistan has performed better in the conflict with India.
    Indeed so, Russian military exports have dropped off a cliff in the last couple of years, as everyone gets to see how badly they perform against even mostly obsolete Western tech.

    Perhaps they’ll try exporting horses next, after their latest adventure with cavalry in Ukraine.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,637
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    Tim Marshall on Sky was just saying any of this talk about oil being a motivation is nonsense as Venezuelas oil is on the very poor quality end and US have access to loads. Its not equivalent to the Middle East.
    May have the world's largest reserves of hydrocarbons, but much is like boot polish - expensive in energy to extract. Iraq a far more tempting target if you were looking for oil reserves to tie up.
    And how did that go for Bush ?
    Iraq is still free of Saddam and the United States Imports from Iraq were US$7.69 Billion during 2024,
    https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/imports/iraq
    Exxon and Chevron also developing oil fields in conjunction with the Iraqis.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951
    FF43 said:

    Christopher Sabatini, senior fellow for Latin America at Chatham House:

    "But assuming even if there is regime change-of some sort, and it’s by no means clear even if it does happen that it will be democratic-the US’s military action will likely require sustained US engagement of some sort. Will the Trump White House have the stomach for that?"

    More on Guardian live blog

    I don't really know anything about Venezuela, but this seems key. It's quite possible Trump will bag the win and let the Venezuelan chips fall where they may. But if he wants particular political outcomes in the country he will have to invest in them and I'm not sure he or the US generally has the appetite for that.
    It's a bit too early to tell that.

    If there's some arrangement with the opposition, it's not completely impossible that a bit of US military help puts them in power.

    Or it could all go pear shaped.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,637

    HYUFD said:

    'The US has launched an unprovoked and illegal attack on Venezuela.

    This is a brazen attempt to secure control over Venezuelan natural resources.

    It is an act of war that puts the lives of millions of people at risk — and should be condemned by anyone who believes in sovereignty and international law.'
    https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/2007397883994112062?s=20

    There is one thing about Jezza, he is consistent about his views.....
    Unless the aggression is perpetrated by someone he agrees with of course.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,148
    I hear Napolean's old gaff on St Helena has a spare room. Shall we put Trump and Maduro there? Twin beds.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,664
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    So where does this leave us? (I.e the UK). Europe has been shown to have been totally irrelevant, so I guess our only option is to go along with the US..

    It leaves us seriously adrift. We've cut our ties with Europe and are stuck in a performative alliance with a state acting against our interests.
    Trump's cowardice against Putin is against our interests.

    Not sure how this morning's actions affect our interests either way?
    True. This morning's actions don't materially make the UK's position worse.

    Contrary to your position, the UK as an open, middle ranking, somewhat prosperous country benefits from the rule of law internationally. If the rule of law is gone, it has to deal with the situation it finds itself in, but it doesn't have good cards to play right now, hence the continuing abusive relationship with the United States.
    The rule of law, internationally, hasn’t gone. It never was.
    I disagree, at least as far as the UK's interest is concerned. The UK benefited from a sixty year post War world order and now it no longer does. Hence its suddenly much weakened position internationally.
    The rules based order was always a fairly flimsy facade for America's hegemony. It's just that today's America has a radically different policy. Though one could argue that the transition from world hegemon to dominant regional power was an inevitability - Trump just gives it a face.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,301

    HYUFD said:

    'The US has launched an unprovoked and illegal attack on Venezuela.

    This is a brazen attempt to secure control over Venezuelan natural resources.

    It is an act of war that puts the lives of millions of people at risk — and should be condemned by anyone who believes in sovereignty and international law.'
    https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/2007397883994112062?s=20

    There is one thing about Jezza, he is consistent about his views.....
    Unless the aggression is perpetrated by someone he agrees with of course.
    As I say consistent....
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,825
    .

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    So where does this leave us? (I.e the UK). Europe has been shown to have been totally irrelevant, so I guess our only option is to go along with the US..

    It leaves us seriously adrift. We've cut our ties with Europe and are stuck in a performative alliance with a state acting against our interests.
    Trump's cowardice against Putin is against our interests.

    Not sure how this morning's actions affect our interests either way?
    True. This morning's actions don't materially make the UK's position worse.

    Contrary to your position, the UK as an open, middle ranking, somewhat prosperous country benefits from the rule of law internationally. If the rule of law is gone, it has to deal with the situation it finds itself in, but it doesn't have good cards to play right now, hence the continuing abusive relationship with the United States.
    The rule of law, internationally, hasn’t gone. It never was.
    I disagree, at least as far as the UK's interest is concerned. The UK benefited from a sixty year post War world order and now it no longer does. Hence its suddenly much weakened position internationally.
    And that’s why you opposed the bombing of Belgrade?
    Um. Sometimes you could engage with the point the commentator is making and explain, in your considered opinion, why the UK did, or did not, benefit from the post- War world order?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577
    'US-Venezuela Tensions: China Criticises US Interference in Venezuela Crisis'
    https://www.wionews.com/videos/us-venezuela-tensions-china-criticises-us-interference-in-venezuela-crisis-1767420354933

    'Iran's Foreign Ministry on Saturday strongly condemned the U.S. military attack on Venezuela, calling it a "flagrant violation" of the country's sovereignty and territorial integrity.

    In a statement, the ministry described the attack as an "act of aggression" and a clear breach of the fundamental principles of the United Nations Charter and international law prohibiting the use of force against sovereign states.'
    https://english.news.cn/20260103/7bc7b798835648a38504b55c7801117f/c.html
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,148
    edited January 3

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Didn't Russia already have the "Green light"? Or at least didn't care?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,637

    HYUFD said:

    'The US has launched an unprovoked and illegal attack on Venezuela.

    This is a brazen attempt to secure control over Venezuelan natural resources.

    It is an act of war that puts the lives of millions of people at risk — and should be condemned by anyone who believes in sovereignty and international law.'
    https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/2007397883994112062?s=20

    There is one thing about Jezza, he is consistent about his views.....
    Unless the aggression is perpetrated by someone he agrees with of course.
    As I say consistent....
    If he condemns “violence on both sides” - that’s the clue
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,019
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    Tim Marshall on Sky was just saying any of this talk about oil being a motivation is nonsense as Venezuelas oil is on the very poor quality end and US have access to loads. Its not equivalent to the Middle East.
    I'd agree that Trump talks nonsense, but here he is saying it's all about the oil.
    https://x.com/davenewworld_2/status/2007372939776405800
    US companies operating there got shafted by Maduro.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,682
    edited January 3
    Nigelb said:

    It's hard to have any sympathy with the odious Mr Maduro but frankly I am rather nervous.

    Have you been running a repressive and corrupt regime having fixed an election ?

    If not, you should be OK.
    But it's Trump making the decisions. The next places on his target list are:

    Iran
    Panama
    Canada
    Greenland

    He's erratic, and now he's had a huge confidence boost from the success of this operation. So somewhere is definitely going to be next.

    Iran wouldn't upset many. Panama can probably be brushed off - it's only the 70th anniversary of the Suez Crisis this year after all. But Greenland?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577
    Milei delighted with the US capture of Maduro though.

    'U.S. President Donald Trump announced the arrest and extradition of Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro, 64 years old, amid which the reactions of Latin American leaders were sharply divided. Argentine President Javier Milei, who has built a strategic close relationship with President Trump, publicly issued a welcoming message, while Colombia and Chile, which share borders with Venezuela, urged the U.S. military to refrain from unilateral military actions, expressing concerns over security and humanitarian crises.

    Milei shared a social media post by Trump related to the "arrest of Maduro" on his Instagram account on the 3rd, leaving a short message: "Freedom advances. Long live freedom." Milei, who has consistently labeled Maduro as a "criminal" and "dictator," was interpreted as effectively publicly supporting the U.S. military action, evaluating the situation as a victory for the freedom camp.'
    https://www.chosun.com/english/world-en/2026/01/03/Z64HCERLBFEKTLXC3G4DBOKS7Y/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951

    Nigelb said:

    It's hard to have any sympathy with the odious Mr Maduro but frankly I am rather nervous.

    Have you been running a repressive and corrupt regime having fixed an election ?

    If not, you should be OK.
    But it's Trump making the decisions. The next places in his target list are:

    Iran
    Panama
    Canada
    Greenland

    He's erratic, and now he's had a huge confidence boost from the success of this operation. So somewhere is definitely going to be next.

    Iran wouldn't upset many. Panama can probably be brushed off - it's only the 70th anniversary of the Suez Crisis this year after all. But Greenland?
    Well, quite.
    Frank isn't on that list.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577
    edited January 3

    Nigelb said:

    It's hard to have any sympathy with the odious Mr Maduro but frankly I am rather nervous.

    Have you been running a repressive and corrupt regime having fixed an election ?

    If not, you should be OK.
    But it's Trump making the decisions. The next places on his target list are:

    Iran
    Panama
    Canada
    Greenland

    He's erratic, and now he's had a huge confidence boost from the success of this operation. So somewhere is definitely going to be next.

    Iran wouldn't upset many. Panama can probably be brushed off - it's only the 70th anniversary of the Suez Crisis this year after all. But Greenland?
    He has to ensure a 'smooth and stable transition' in Caracas first, if it turns into terrorism and bombings and riots then US troops will be needed to keep order there potentially for the rest of Trump's term
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,543
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Christopher Sabatini, senior fellow for Latin America at Chatham House:

    "But assuming even if there is regime change-of some sort, and it’s by no means clear even if it does happen that it will be democratic-the US’s military action will likely require sustained US engagement of some sort. Will the Trump White House have the stomach for that?"

    More on Guardian live blog

    I don't really know anything about Venezuela, but this seems key. It's quite possible Trump will bag the win and let the Venezuelan chips fall where they may. But if he wants particular political outcomes in the country he will have to invest in them and I'm not sure he or the US generally has the appetite for that.
    It's a bit too early to tell that.

    If there's some arrangement with the opposition, it's not completely impossible that a bit of US military help puts them in power.

    Or it could all go pear shaped.
    Surely not the woman who stole Donald Trump's Nobel Peace Prize?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951
    HYUFD said:

    'The US has launched an unprovoked and illegal attack on Venezuela.

    This is a brazen attempt to secure control over Venezuelan natural resources.

    It is an act of war that puts the lives of millions of people at risk — and should be condemned by anyone who believes in sovereignty and international law.'
    https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/2007397883994112062?s=20

    Quick Jeremy time to call for a negotiated settlement and an arms embargo on Venezuela.
    https://x.com/OzKaterji/status/2007401074744013306

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,301
    edited January 3
    Starmer doing media pool interview. Was totally in the dark that it was going to happen, and still in the dark about what is going on. Not spoken to Trump. Is waiting to see Trump's press conference later to learn more.

    Bit rude of his mate Trump not to drop him a Whatsapp. Or have him in that big Signal group where Pete tells everybody ahead of time the plan of action.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,952

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    Davey getting it wrong again imo.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,365
    Rubio expects no further action according to a US Senator
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,527
    edited January 3
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    How does it give leverage over Canada..
    Venezuela is an alternative source of the heavy oil for refining for which the USA is dependent on Canada. So that undermines one of Canada's cards in countering Trump's trade war.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/how-venezuelan-crude-could-shake-things-up-for-canadian-producers-9.7019971

    (Responding to the other comment, I think that Tim Marshall is perhaps not looking at the detail, but I'll have a listen later.)
    Not really - How would you get the oil from the east coast to the north mid west where canada's oil is currently used.
    Canadian oil is also used in Gulf Coast refineries. AIUI the history is that this has taken up space previously used by Venezuelan Oil when that was run down.

    As at 2019/2020, half a million barrels per day. On these numbers that is 20% of Canadian oil imports at that time.

    PADD 3 U.S. Gulf Coast remains the prime customer for Canada’s heavy oil producers, including diluted bitumen from the oil sands. The region’s refineries are best designed to handle heavy sour grades, offering the best purchase prices for the world’s heavy oil benchmarks. Almost 100% of Canadian crude oil exports into the U.S. Gulf Coast are heavy. This is precisely why completion of Keystone XL is of critical importance to a region with refineries that are hungry for heavy crude feedstock. (Oil Sands Magazine, 2020)

    https://energynow.ca/2021/06/analyzing-the-contributions-of-the-canadian-crude-oil-sector-to-u-s-petroleum-refineries/#:~:text=Canadian crude as a percentage,According to OSM,
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,637
    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,019
    The story is moving quickly:

    Venezuela opposition source says that last night’s operation was a “negotiated exit” agreement between Maduro and the US.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/2007391482341404938

    Said to be first photo of Maduro in custody.

    https://x.com/maks_nafo_fella/status/2007402548043636884

    Sec Rubio said to have told Sen Mike Lee that the operation was a one-off, with the aim of getting Maduro out to stand trial in the US.

    https://x.com/basedmikelee/status/2007395531023352319
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,682
    edited January 3
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    It's hard to have any sympathy with the odious Mr Maduro but frankly I am rather nervous.

    Have you been running a repressive and corrupt regime having fixed an election ?

    If not, you should be OK.
    But it's Trump making the decisions. The next places on his target list are:

    Iran
    Panama
    Canada
    Greenland

    He's erratic, and now he's had a huge confidence boost from the success of this operation. So somewhere is definitely going to be next.

    Iran wouldn't upset many. Panama can probably be brushed off - it's only the 70th anniversary of the Suez Crisis this year after all. But Greenland?
    He has to ensure a 'smooth and stable transition' in Caracas first, if it turns into terrorism and bombings and riots then US troops will be needed to keep order there potentially for the rest of Trump's term
    Trump would leave Venezuela to descend into Libyan/Syrian-style chaos and bloodshed rather than put US troops on the ground to be the target for IEDs and snipers.

    This is one reason why the references to oil are wide of the mark. Trump doesn't have the stomach for the fight that would be required to secure the oil, and we should be grateful for that at least.

    Trump is a TV kinda guy and he has secured his made-for-TV triumph.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,682
    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I wonder whether that explains Farage's surprising equivocation. Could Farage be closer to the Russians than we thought?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,190
    Sandpit said:

    The story is moving quickly:

    Venezuela opposition source says that last night’s operation was a “negotiated exit” agreement between Maduro and the US.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/2007391482341404938

    Said to be first photo of Maduro in custody.

    https://x.com/maks_nafo_fella/status/2007402548043636884

    Sec Rubio said to have told Sen Mike Lee that the operation was a one-off, with the aim of getting Maduro out to stand trial in the US.

    https://x.com/basedmikelee/status/2007395531023352319

    Who would agree to stand trial in the US as part of a ‘negotiated exit’?
    Mixed messages..
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,301
    edited January 3
    Maduro and wife indicted in NY on among other things drug charges.

    We don't think Trump has stitched them up with the Art of the Deal promising them safe passage out of Venzeula only to deploy lawfare?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,825
    edited January 3

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    So where does this leave us? (I.e the UK). Europe has been shown to have been totally irrelevant, so I guess our only option is to go along with the US..

    It leaves us seriously adrift. We've cut our ties with Europe and are stuck in a performative alliance with a state acting against our interests.
    Trump's cowardice against Putin is against our interests.

    Not sure how this morning's actions affect our interests either way?
    True. This morning's actions don't materially make the UK's position worse.

    Contrary to your position, the UK as an open, middle ranking, somewhat prosperous country benefits from the rule of law internationally. If the rule of law is gone, it has to deal with the situation it finds itself in, but it doesn't have good cards to play right now, hence the continuing abusive relationship with the United States.
    The rule of law, internationally, hasn’t gone. It never was.
    I disagree, at least as far as the UK's interest is concerned. The UK benefited from a sixty year post War world order and now it no longer does. Hence its suddenly much weakened position internationally.
    And that’s why you opposed the bombing of Belgrade?
    No, i will come back to you on this. The American bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade may, or may not, have been deliberate action by the people doing it, but it wasn't consequence free. It put China and the United States on a conflict path in addition to causing a huge amount of embarrassment at the time. As such it was one of the worst American foreign policy blunders of the post War period.

    The exception that proves the rule as it were.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577
    edited January 3

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I wonder whether that explains Farage's surprising equivocation. Could Farage be closer to the Russians than we thought?
    No, he just knows many of his supporters are isolationists, as are many MAGA supporters of Trump, so it is a gamble by the US President. Though unlike Farage he cannot stand for election again, so Trump is now just focused on his legacy
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,513

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Quite.

    We are reverting to the Cold War, but with the rules of engagement governed by even more self-interest than ideology.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,374
    HYUFD said:

    Milei delighted with the US capture of Maduro though.

    'U.S. President Donald Trump announced the arrest and extradition of Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro, 64 years old, amid which the reactions of Latin American leaders were sharply divided. Argentine President Javier Milei, who has built a strategic close relationship with President Trump, publicly issued a welcoming message, while Colombia and Chile, which share borders with Venezuela, urged the U.S. military to refrain from unilateral military actions, expressing concerns over security and humanitarian crises.

    Milei shared a social media post by Trump related to the "arrest of Maduro" on his Instagram account on the 3rd, leaving a short message: "Freedom advances. Long live freedom." Milei, who has consistently labeled Maduro as a "criminal" and "dictator," was interpreted as effectively publicly supporting the U.S. military action, evaluating the situation as a victory for the freedom camp.'
    https://www.chosun.com/english/world-en/2026/01/03/Z64HCERLBFEKTLXC3G4DBOKS7Y/

    Chile doesn't share a border with Venezuela and has just elected a rather 'iffy' far right President.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Was he? Evidence? It does at least make it unlikely Putin accepts any Trump peace plan which means Zelensky won't be pressured to give up more territory
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951
    edited January 3

    Sandpit said:

    The story is moving quickly:

    Venezuela opposition source says that last night’s operation was a “negotiated exit” agreement between Maduro and the US.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/2007391482341404938

    Said to be first photo of Maduro in custody.

    https://x.com/maks_nafo_fella/status/2007402548043636884

    Sec Rubio said to have told Sen Mike Lee that the operation was a one-off, with the aim of getting Maduro out to stand trial in the US.

    https://x.com/basedmikelee/status/2007395531023352319

    Who would agree to stand trial in the US as part of a ‘negotiated exit’?
    Mixed messages..
    Since when did Trump keep his promises ?

    Though given Trump set aside via pardon one convicted S American former leader's drug trafficking conviction only weeks ago, Maduro is still in with a shout.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,190

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Quite.

    We are reverting to the Cold War, but with the rules of engagement governed by even more self-interest than ideology.
    Pretty sure every Cold War POTUS would have informed his allies of any impending action as well as the USSR, indeed probably have tried to inveigle said allies into any shitstorm. So much for the value of the special chemistry between Trump and SKS.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,367

    FF43 said:

    So where does this leave us? (I.e the UK). Europe has been shown to have been totally irrelevant, so I guess our only option is to go along with the US..

    It leaves us seriously adrift. We've cut our ties with Europe and are stuck in a performative alliance with a state acting against our interests.
    We have an interest in the continuation of the Maduro regime?

    If your answer is that it's against our interests because we have an interest in upholding 'international law', how can you justify the bombing of Belgrade?
    what century is this?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,345
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    The story is moving quickly:

    Venezuela opposition source says that last night’s operation was a “negotiated exit” agreement between Maduro and the US.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/2007391482341404938

    Said to be first photo of Maduro in custody.

    https://x.com/maks_nafo_fella/status/2007402548043636884

    Sec Rubio said to have told Sen Mike Lee that the operation was a one-off, with the aim of getting Maduro out to stand trial in the US.

    https://x.com/basedmikelee/status/2007395531023352319

    Who would agree to stand trial in the US as part of a ‘negotiated exit’?
    Mixed messages..
    Since when did Trump keep his promises ?
    I think he has been fairly consistent when accepting crypto bungs in exchange for pardons so far?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,881
    The last leader of a Latin American country to end up in a US jail was the former president of Honduras, locked up on drug charges. Trump pardoned him.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,151
    edited January 3

    Surprised they did it on a weekend, going to really mess with Donald's golf commitments.

    No that is Starmer. Remember no wars between 1800 hours on Friday and 0800 Monday.

    Besides I doubt Trump's conscience, Stephen Miller requires sleep let alone time to gather his thoughts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Quite.

    We are reverting to the Cold War, but with the rules of engagement governed by even more self-interest than ideology.
    Pretty sure every Cold War POTUS would have informed his allies of any impending action as well as the USSR, indeed probably have tried to inveigle said allies into any shitstorm. So much for the value of the special chemistry between Trump and SKS.
    Venezuala is over the other side of the planet not in Europe and not a British overseas territory, what on earth could Starmer do even if he was informed of the US action?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,682
    edited January 3

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Quite.

    We are reverting to the Cold War, but with the rules of engagement governed by even more self-interest than ideology.
    Pretty sure every Cold War POTUS would have informed his allies of any impending action as well as the USSR, indeed probably have tried to inveigle said allies into any shitstorm. So much for the value of the special chemistry between Trump and SKS.
    Did not the US invade Grenada, then a Crown Realm member of the Commonwealth, without Reagan telling Thatcher? (Edit: Ah no, apparently she had three hours warning, but considered that insufficient)

    Different rules have always applied as far as the US is concerned with the Western Hemisphere.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Quite.

    We are reverting to the Cold War, but with the rules of engagement governed by even more self-interest than ideology.
    Pretty sure every Cold War POTUS would have informed his allies of any impending action as well as the USSR, indeed probably have tried to inveigle said allies into any shitstorm. So much for the value of the special chemistry between Trump and SKS.
    Did not the US invade Grenada, then a Crown Realm, without Reagan telling Thatcher?

    Different rules have always applied as far as the US is concerned with the Western Hemisphere.
    Indeed and Venezuela is not a Crown Realm or even in the Commonwealth so completely irrelevant as far as the UK is concerned
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,637
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Was he? Evidence? It does at least make it unlikely Putin accepts any Trump peace plan which means Zelensky won't be pressured to give up more territory
    It’s how international power politics works and has always worked. To envisage that US military action would be taken against a Russian ally without telling them - especially considering the military build-up in the Gulf - is risible.

    It is patently clear Trump is throwing Ukraine to the wolves as a deal to allow him to settle his scores in South America. What did Trump and Putin talk about the other week do you think? Maybe Putin gave him Maduro - and made it clear to Maduro that he’s gone. On the proviso Trump gets him and no more.

    Trump gets his press conference and a “victory” and then the world moves on. As it will.

    Trump is a dealer. A trader. This is what this is.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951
    Tulsi weighs in.. from 2019

    The United States needs to stay out of Venezuela. Let the Venezuelan people determine their future. We don't want other countries to choose our leaders--so we have to stop trying to choose theirs.
    https://x.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1088531713649713153
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,301
    edited January 3

    Next: Trump and Vance invade the EU in order to restore free speech, halt mass migration, restore democracy, and end the era of woke decadence that has corrupted Europe.
    You heard it here first.

    Nah EU politicians are too broke to afford the required donations to be granted their future pardons.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,447
    Sandpit said:

    The story is moving quickly:

    Venezuela opposition source says that last night’s operation was a “negotiated exit” agreement between Maduro and the US.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/2007391482341404938

    Said to be first photo of Maduro in custody.

    https://x.com/maks_nafo_fella/status/2007402548043636884

    Sec Rubio said to have told Sen Mike Lee that the operation was a one-off, with the aim of getting Maduro out to stand trial in the US.

    https://x.com/basedmikelee/status/2007395531023352319

    Can't really see Maduro having negotiated an exit that would see him stand trial in the US?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951
    The ‘rules‑based international order’ was underwritten—again, with exceptions—by American military restraint and structured power. That era is over. If Europeans want to preserve it, military power is like a dinner jacket: when it’s required, nothing else will do.
    https://x.com/HoansSolo/status/2007421203724808219
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,345

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Quite.

    We are reverting to the Cold War, but with the rules of engagement governed by even more self-interest than ideology.
    Pretty sure every Cold War POTUS would have informed his allies of any impending action as well as the USSR, indeed probably have tried to inveigle said allies into any shitstorm. So much for the value of the special chemistry between Trump and SKS.
    Did not the US invade Grenada, then a Crown Realm, without Reagan telling Thatcher?

    Different rules have always applied as far as the US is concerned with the Western Hemisphere.
    According to google told in advance, but Thatcher unhappy at lack of earlier notice (and to be honest them deciding to do it against our advice):

    The Sequence of Events
    Before the invasion: US President Ronald Reagan and his administration had been planning the possibility of an invasion for some time but largely kept the UK government in the dark, citing fears of security leaks. Thatcher and her Foreign Secretary, Geoffrey Howe, were actively counselling against military action in private discussions when the topic of intervention in the region arose.
    Evening of October 24, 1983: Reagan sent a message to Thatcher at 7:15 pm, stating he was "giving serious consideration" to an invasion. Before she could reply, a second message at 11:00 pm informed her the invasion would go ahead.
    Early morning of October 25, 1983: Thatcher replied in strong terms just after midnight, asking him to "think most carefully" and arguing the only credible justification (protecting citizens) was not applicable as British and US citizens were not at risk. She also phoned Reagan on a secure line to reiterate her opposition.
    October 25, 1983: Reagan confirmed at 7:45 am that the US would proceed, and US troops landed at 9:40 am.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,527
    edited January 3
    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    No great fan of Maduro but he was elected and about half the people of Venezuela probably still support him.

    Not sure if this invasion of Venezuela will be that popular with the US voters and even some of his MAGA base either given Trump promised not to get involved in more wars.

    At least one GOP US Senator has already questioned why the action was taken without support from Congress

    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/venezuela-strikes/card/republican-senator-questions-trump-s-authority-to-attack-1id3H6iGmCCeGHot6r6G

    Putin has condemned the US action and capture of Maduro so the happiest man this morning is probably Zelensky, so it is good news on that front

    I don't see an invasion of Venezuela. I see decapitation followed by a "Trump's pocket" regime, in traditional mid-20C banana republic style - but oil companies. They want leverage against Canada.
    How does it give leverage over Canada..
    Venezuela is an alternative source of the heavy oil for refining for which the USA is dependent on Canada. So that undermines one of Canada's cards in countering Trump's trade war.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/how-venezuelan-crude-could-shake-things-up-for-canadian-producers-9.7019971

    (Responding to the other comment, I think that Tim Marshall is perhaps not looking at the detail, but I'll have a listen later.)
    Not really - How would you get the oil from the east coast to the north mid west where canada's oil is currently used.
    Canadian oil is also used in Gulf Coast refineries. AIUI the history is that this has taken up space previously used by Venezuelan Oil when that was run down.

    As at 2019/2020, half a million barrels per day. On these numbers that is 20% of Canadian oil imports at that time.

    PADD 3 U.S. Gulf Coast remains the prime customer for Canada’s heavy oil producers, including diluted bitumen from the oil sands. The region’s refineries are best designed to handle heavy sour grades, offering the best purchase prices for the world’s heavy oil benchmarks. Almost 100% of Canadian crude oil exports into the U.S. Gulf Coast are heavy. This is precisely why completion of Keystone XL is of critical importance to a region with refineries that are hungry for heavy crude feedstock. (Oil Sands Magazine, 2020)

    https://energynow.ca/2021/06/analyzing-the-contributions-of-the-canadian-crude-oil-sector-to-u-s-petroleum-refineries/#:~:text=Canadian crude as a percentage,According to OSM,
    Correction: I think my 20% is incorrect. Those are strange positions of % totals in that table, which reads horizontally.

    I make Canadian heavy crude imports to be 516k barrels per day in 2019, which is 5.7% of imports of oil to the Gulf Coast (which is PADD3) equal to 516/9090, and is 13.5% of Canadian oil imports equal to 516/3815.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,148

    Sandpit said:

    The story is moving quickly:

    Venezuela opposition source says that last night’s operation was a “negotiated exit” agreement between Maduro and the US.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/2007391482341404938

    Said to be first photo of Maduro in custody.

    https://x.com/maks_nafo_fella/status/2007402548043636884

    Sec Rubio said to have told Sen Mike Lee that the operation was a one-off, with the aim of getting Maduro out to stand trial in the US.

    https://x.com/basedmikelee/status/2007395531023352319

    Can't really see Maduro having negotiated an exit that would see him stand trial in the US?
    Maybe he thinks he's negotiated a trial followed by a pardon, followed by a nice retirement. If Trump won't pardon him the next president might.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Was he? Evidence? It does at least make it unlikely Putin accepts any Trump peace plan which means Zelensky won't be pressured to give up more territory
    It’s how international power politics works and has always worked. To envisage that US military action would be taken against a Russian ally without telling them - especially considering the military build-up in the Gulf - is risible.

    It is patently clear Trump is throwing Ukraine to the wolves as a deal to allow him to settle his scores in South America. What did Trump and Putin talk about the other week do you think? Maybe Putin gave him Maduro - and made it clear to Maduro that he’s gone. On the proviso Trump gets him and no more.

    Trump gets his press conference and a “victory” and then the world moves on. As it will.

    Trump is a dealer. A trader. This is what this is.
    Bullshit. It is if anything Rubio pushing this action against Maduro most and he is more anti Putin than Trump, much of the MAGA base will also not be happy at this US intervention overseas in Caracas just as they don't want any intervention in Ukraine.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry have already issued a statement condemning the US actions in Venezuala as a breach of international law and Moscow has made clear it stands by Maduro
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,951
    And so much for Congress.

    Secretaries Rubio and Hegseth looked every Senator in the eye a few weeks ago and said this wasn’t about regime change. I didn’t trust them then and we see now that they blatantly lied to Congress. Trump rejected our Constitutionally required approval process for armed conflict because the Administration knows the American people overwhelmingly reject risks pulling our nation into another war...
    https://x.com/SenatorAndyKim/status/2007399987596906501
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,190

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Quite.

    We are reverting to the Cold War, but with the rules of engagement governed by even more self-interest than ideology.
    Pretty sure every Cold War POTUS would have informed his allies of any impending action as well as the USSR, indeed probably have tried to inveigle said allies into any shitstorm. So much for the value of the special chemistry between Trump and SKS.
    Did not the US invade Grenada, then a Crown Realm member of the Commonwealth, without Reagan telling Thatcher? (Edit: Ah no, apparently she had three hours warning, but considered that insufficient)

    Different rules have always applied as far as the US is concerned with the Western Hemisphere.
    According to Wiki Reagan warned Thatcher it might happen and gave her 3 hrs notice beforehand. Though she wasn’t happy about it she gave public support.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,637
    edited January 3
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Was he? Evidence? It does at least make it unlikely Putin accepts any Trump peace plan which means Zelensky won't be pressured to give up more territory
    It’s how international power politics works and has always worked. To envisage that US military action would be taken against a Russian ally without telling them - especially considering the military build-up in the Gulf - is risible.

    It is patently clear Trump is throwing Ukraine to the wolves as a deal to allow him to settle his scores in South America. What did Trump and Putin talk about the other week do you think? Maybe Putin gave him Maduro - and made it clear to Maduro that he’s gone. On the proviso Trump gets him and no more.

    Trump gets his press conference and a “victory” and then the world moves on. As it will.

    Trump is a dealer. A trader. This is what this is.
    Bullshit. It is if anything Rubio pushing this action against Maduro most and he is more anti Putin than Trump, much of the MAGA base will also not be happy at this US intervention overseas in Caracas just as they don't want any intervention in Ukraine.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry have already issued a statement condemning the US actions in Venezuala as a breach of international law and Moscow has made clear it stands by Maduro
    Of course they’d condemn it publicly! Jesus!

    They knew about it and agreed with it so don’t be surprised to see Ukraine further cut off.

    Your black and white view of international politics is quaint though, I’ll give you that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,890
    carnforth said:

    Sandpit said:

    The story is moving quickly:

    Venezuela opposition source says that last night’s operation was a “negotiated exit” agreement between Maduro and the US.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/2007391482341404938

    Said to be first photo of Maduro in custody.

    https://x.com/maks_nafo_fella/status/2007402548043636884

    Sec Rubio said to have told Sen Mike Lee that the operation was a one-off, with the aim of getting Maduro out to stand trial in the US.

    https://x.com/basedmikelee/status/2007395531023352319

    Can't really see Maduro having negotiated an exit that would see him stand trial in the US?
    Maybe he thinks he's negotiated a trial followed by a pardon, followed by a nice retirement. If Trump won't pardon him the next president might.
    Julian Assange managed it (under Biden, in that case).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,190
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Quite.

    We are reverting to the Cold War, but with the rules of engagement governed by even more self-interest than ideology.
    Pretty sure every Cold War POTUS would have informed his allies of any impending action as well as the USSR, indeed probably have tried to inveigle said allies into any shitstorm. So much for the value of the special chemistry between Trump and SKS.
    Venezuala is over the other side of the planet not in Europe and not a British overseas territory, what on earth could Starmer do even if he was informed of the US action?
    Starmer could at least feel a bit better about abasing himself before the Orange Cthulhu.

    ‘See, it’s still a special relationship!’
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577
    edited January 3

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Was he? Evidence? It does at least make it unlikely Putin accepts any Trump peace plan which means Zelensky won't be pressured to give up more territory
    It’s how international power politics works and has always worked. To envisage that US military action would be taken against a Russian ally without telling them - especially considering the military build-up in the Gulf - is risible.

    It is patently clear Trump is throwing Ukraine to the wolves as a deal to allow him to settle his scores in South America. What did Trump and Putin talk about the other week do you think? Maybe Putin gave him Maduro - and made it clear to Maduro that he’s gone. On the proviso Trump gets him and no more.

    Trump gets his press conference and a “victory” and then the world moves on. As it will.

    Trump is a dealer. A trader. This is what this is.
    Bullshit. It is if anything Rubio pushing this action against Maduro most and he is more anti Putin than Trump, much of the MAGA base will also not be happy at this US intervention overseas in Caracas just as they don't want any intervention in Ukraine.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry have already issued a statement condemning the US actions in Venezuala as a breach of international law and Moscow has made clear it stands by Maduro
    Of course they’d condemn it! The knew about it and agreed with it don’t be surprised to see Ukraine further cut off.

    Your black and white view of international politics is quaint though, I’ll give you that.
    Rubbish, you just said in your last post Putin had agreed to hand Maduro to Trump. Yet this very morning Moscow has made clear it condemns the US invasion and stands by Maduro.

    If Zelensky has any sense he will now tweet how brilliant Trump's actions were in removing the Putin backed dictator of Venezuela
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,890

    Sandpit said:

    The story is moving quickly:

    Venezuela opposition source says that last night’s operation was a “negotiated exit” agreement between Maduro and the US.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/2007391482341404938

    Said to be first photo of Maduro in custody.

    https://x.com/maks_nafo_fella/status/2007402548043636884

    Sec Rubio said to have told Sen Mike Lee that the operation was a one-off, with the aim of getting Maduro out to stand trial in the US.

    https://x.com/basedmikelee/status/2007395531023352319

    Can't really see Maduro having negotiated an exit that would see him stand trial in the US?
    I misread that as 'Marco,' and worryingly it still made sense.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,637
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Was he? Evidence? It does at least make it unlikely Putin accepts any Trump peace plan which means Zelensky won't be pressured to give up more territory
    It’s how international power politics works and has always worked. To envisage that US military action would be taken against a Russian ally without telling them - especially considering the military build-up in the Gulf - is risible.

    It is patently clear Trump is throwing Ukraine to the wolves as a deal to allow him to settle his scores in South America. What did Trump and Putin talk about the other week do you think? Maybe Putin gave him Maduro - and made it clear to Maduro that he’s gone. On the proviso Trump gets him and no more.

    Trump gets his press conference and a “victory” and then the world moves on. As it will.

    Trump is a dealer. A trader. This is what this is.
    Bullshit. It is if anything Rubio pushing this action against Maduro most and he is more anti Putin than Trump, much of the MAGA base will also not be happy at this US intervention overseas in Caracas just as they don't want any intervention in Ukraine.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry have already issued a statement condemning the US actions in Venezuala as a breach of international law and Moscow has made clear it stands by Maduro
    Of course they’d condemn it! The knew about it and agreed with it don’t be surprised to see Ukraine further cut off.

    Your black and white view of international politics is quaint though, I’ll give you that.
    Rubbish, you just said in your last post Putin had agreed to hand Maduro to Trump. This very morning Moscow has made clear it condemns the US invasion and stands by Maduro
    And you believe what politicians, especially Russian ones, tell the cameras? Lol.

    Do you not think they might be doing that thing called…ummm.. what’s it called? Ah yes. Lying!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,935
    FF43 said:

    .

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    So where does this leave us? (I.e the UK). Europe has been shown to have been totally irrelevant, so I guess our only option is to go along with the US..

    It leaves us seriously adrift. We've cut our ties with Europe and are stuck in a performative alliance with a state acting against our interests.
    Trump's cowardice against Putin is against our interests.

    Not sure how this morning's actions affect our interests either way?
    True. This morning's actions don't materially make the UK's position worse.

    Contrary to your position, the UK as an open, middle ranking, somewhat prosperous country benefits from the rule of law internationally. If the rule of law is gone, it has to deal with the situation it finds itself in, but it doesn't have good cards to play right now, hence the continuing abusive relationship with the United States.
    The rule of law, internationally, hasn’t gone. It never was.
    I disagree, at least as far as the UK's interest is concerned. The UK benefited from a sixty year post War world order and now it no longer does. Hence its suddenly much weakened position internationally.
    And that’s why you opposed the bombing of Belgrade?
    Um. Sometimes you could engage with the point the commentator is making and explain, in your considered opinion, why the UK did, or did not, benefit from the post- War world order?
    Your point is based on a false premise, as my example was intended to illustrate. In any case, the UK was arguably the primary loser of the post-WW2 order.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,682
    edited January 3
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Was he? Evidence? It does at least make it unlikely Putin accepts any Trump peace plan which means Zelensky won't be pressured to give up more territory
    It’s how international power politics works and has always worked. To envisage that US military action would be taken against a Russian ally without telling them - especially considering the military build-up in the Gulf - is risible.

    It is patently clear Trump is throwing Ukraine to the wolves as a deal to allow him to settle his scores in South America. What did Trump and Putin talk about the other week do you think? Maybe Putin gave him Maduro - and made it clear to Maduro that he’s gone. On the proviso Trump gets him and no more.

    Trump gets his press conference and a “victory” and then the world moves on. As it will.

    Trump is a dealer. A trader. This is what this is.
    Bullshit. It is if anything Rubio pushing this action against Maduro most and he is more anti Putin than Trump, much of the MAGA base will also not be happy at this US intervention overseas in Caracas just as they don't want any intervention in Ukraine.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry have already issued a statement condemning the US actions in Venezuala as a breach of international law and Moscow has made clear it stands by Maduro
    Rubio is strongly in favour of this action, yes. Supposedly this is because he sees Venezuela as an important source of support for Cuba - so we might expect to see action against Cuba in the future.

    I think most of the MAGA base is onside because it's been framed as protecting the US border from smuggling - provided there is no US occupation.
  • I waste too much time reflecting on propaganda.

    The BBC wants us to think it’s impartial.
    The US claims it’s civilised.
    Farmers believe 20% over £5m is still too much tax.

    We all have our own truth.

  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,513
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Was he? Evidence? It does at least make it unlikely Putin accepts any Trump peace plan which means Zelensky won't be pressured to give up more territory
    It’s how international power politics works and has always worked. To envisage that US military action would be taken against a Russian ally without telling them - especially considering the military build-up in the Gulf - is risible.

    It is patently clear Trump is throwing Ukraine to the wolves as a deal to allow him to settle his scores in South America. What did Trump and Putin talk about the other week do you think? Maybe Putin gave him Maduro - and made it clear to Maduro that he’s gone. On the proviso Trump gets him and no more.

    Trump gets his press conference and a “victory” and then the world moves on. As it will.

    Trump is a dealer. A trader. This is what this is.
    Bullshit. It is if anything Rubio pushing this action against Maduro most and he is more anti Putin than Trump, much of the MAGA base will also not be happy at this US intervention overseas in Caracas just as they don't want any intervention in Ukraine.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry have already issued a statement condemning the US actions in Venezuala as a breach of international law and Moscow has made clear it stands by Maduro
    This is all the precursor to a Ukrainian settlement which will go much further and wider than we think, even if it isn’t formally recorded. The world is about to be carved up into zones of influence again, and nobody is going to have any say on that other than Putin (with Xi in the background) and Trump.

    Europe is going to have to step up and hold its own.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577

    I waste too much time reflecting on propaganda.

    The BBC wants us to think it’s impartial.
    The US claims it’s civilised.
    Farmers believe 20% over £5m is still too much tax.

    We all have our own truth.

    It is given the land they farm provides our food
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,727

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Was he? Evidence? It does at least make it unlikely Putin accepts any Trump peace plan which means Zelensky won't be pressured to give up more territory
    It’s how international power politics works and has always worked. To envisage that US military action would be taken against a Russian ally without telling them - especially considering the military build-up in the Gulf - is risible.

    It is patently clear Trump is throwing Ukraine to the wolves as a deal to allow him to settle his scores in South America. What did Trump and Putin talk about the other week do you think? Maybe Putin gave him Maduro - and made it clear to Maduro that he’s gone. On the proviso Trump gets him and no more.

    Trump gets his press conference and a “victory” and then the world moves on. As it will.

    Trump is a dealer. A trader. This is what this is.
    Bullshit. It is if anything Rubio pushing this action against Maduro most and he is more anti Putin than Trump, much of the MAGA base will also not be happy at this US intervention overseas in Caracas just as they don't want any intervention in Ukraine.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry have already issued a statement condemning the US actions in Venezuala as a breach of international law and Moscow has made clear it stands by Maduro
    Of course they’d condemn it publicly! Jesus!

    They knew about it and agreed with it so don’t be surprised to see Ukraine further cut off.

    Your black and white view of international politics is quaint though, I’ll give you that.
    And how did Putin agree with it ?

    Putin was powerless to protect Maduro and has been exposed again.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,890

    FF43 said:

    .

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    So where does this leave us? (I.e the UK). Europe has been shown to have been totally irrelevant, so I guess our only option is to go along with the US..

    It leaves us seriously adrift. We've cut our ties with Europe and are stuck in a performative alliance with a state acting against our interests.
    Trump's cowardice against Putin is against our interests.

    Not sure how this morning's actions affect our interests either way?
    True. This morning's actions don't materially make the UK's position worse.

    Contrary to your position, the UK as an open, middle ranking, somewhat prosperous country benefits from the rule of law internationally. If the rule of law is gone, it has to deal with the situation it finds itself in, but it doesn't have good cards to play right now, hence the continuing abusive relationship with the United States.
    The rule of law, internationally, hasn’t gone. It never was.
    I disagree, at least as far as the UK's interest is concerned. The UK benefited from a sixty year post War world order and now it no longer does. Hence its suddenly much weakened position internationally.
    And that’s why you opposed the bombing of Belgrade?
    Um. Sometimes you could engage with the point the commentator is making and explain, in your considered opinion, why the UK did, or did not, benefit from the post- War world order?
    Your point is based on a false premise, as my example was intended to illustrate. In any case, the UK was arguably the primary loser of the post-WW2 order.
    The Poles are on the line, and would like a word.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,577
    edited January 3

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer should condemn Trump’s illegal action in Venezuela. Maduro is a brutal and illegitimate dictator, but unlawful attacks like this make us all less safe. Trump is giving a green light to the likes of Putin and Xi to attack other countries with impunity.

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2007415070062707192?s=20

    For once I think Davey is absolutely right here. This will embolden Russia and China rather than worry them.
    Russia and China have both condemned the US action. It should at least split Trump a bit from Putin which will be good news for Ukraine
    I’d imagine Putin was told this was going to happen. Trump gets free rein in his sphere - Putin his - hence Ukraine in more danger than ever.
    Was he? Evidence? It does at least make it unlikely Putin accepts any Trump peace plan which means Zelensky won't be pressured to give up more territory
    It’s how international power politics works and has always worked. To envisage that US military action would be taken against a Russian ally without telling them - especially considering the military build-up in the Gulf - is risible.

    It is patently clear Trump is throwing Ukraine to the wolves as a deal to allow him to settle his scores in South America. What did Trump and Putin talk about the other week do you think? Maybe Putin gave him Maduro - and made it clear to Maduro that he’s gone. On the proviso Trump gets him and no more.

    Trump gets his press conference and a “victory” and then the world moves on. As it will.

    Trump is a dealer. A trader. This is what this is.
    Bullshit. It is if anything Rubio pushing this action against Maduro most and he is more anti Putin than Trump, much of the MAGA base will also not be happy at this US intervention overseas in Caracas just as they don't want any intervention in Ukraine.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry have already issued a statement condemning the US actions in Venezuala as a breach of international law and Moscow has made clear it stands by Maduro
    Of course they’d condemn it! The knew about it and agreed with it don’t be surprised to see Ukraine further cut off.

    Your black and white view of international politics is quaint though, I’ll give you that.
    Rubbish, you just said in your last post Putin had agreed to hand Maduro to Trump. This very morning Moscow has made clear it condemns the US invasion and stands by Maduro
    And you believe what politicians, especially Russian ones, tell the cameras? Lol.

    Do you not think they might be doing that thing called…ummm.. what’s it called? Ah yes. Lying!
    You have already proved your posts completely inaccurate this morning. Putin has clearly not agreed Trump can have Maduro, indeed Russia has joined Iran and China in openly condemning the US actions today
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,727
    Can we assume Europe's response will be more welfare ?
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