Kemi Badenoch bashes the bishops but the public disagrees with her – politicalbetting.com

Comments

• Benpointer Posts: 36,070

  4:12PM

  Another lucky first

  0
• TimS Posts: 16,414

  4:14PM

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  11
• Taz Posts: 22,451

  4:15PM

  She’s got her hands full. That’s a load off her mind

  0
• Roger Posts: 21,475

  4:16PM

  It's difficult to have an opinion of Badenoch when she lets loose. I don't think many take her seriously or care what she thinks or says about anything or anyone.
  
  In todays parlance she is an unserious person

  1
• Taz Posts: 22,451

  4:16PM

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  0
• TheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,885

  4:16PM

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  Big and slow handclap for all those [moderated] who said Trump would be better for Ukraine than Harris.

  6
• Taz Posts: 22,451

  4:19PM edited 4:20PM

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  Big and slow handclap for all those [moderated] who said Trump would be better for Ukraine than Harris.

  Harris was a dreadful candidate. Apart from poor old Kinabalu who seemed to adore her
  
  Do you think most Americans give a fuck about Ukraine and would vote based on that ?

  1
• TheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,885

  4:20PM

  Taz said:

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  Big and slow handclap for all those [moderated] who said Trump would be better for Ukraine than Harris.

  Harris was a dreadful candidate.

  She was but I'll still take her over Tump, she would never have sold out Ukraine like this.

  5
• Taz Posts: 22,451

  4:21PM

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  Taz said:

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  Big and slow handclap for all those [moderated] who said Trump would be better for Ukraine than Harris.

  Harris was a dreadful candidate.

  She was but I'll still take her over Tump, she would never have sold out Ukraine like this.

  Did you vote for her ?

  0
• TimS Posts: 16,414

  4:22PM

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Snark even now. On this subject. Tiresome.
  
  The answer (though why do I bother?) is it’s done a huge amount with sanctions and asset seizures thought it could do more, and militarily it varies by member state (see military spending on Ukraine by the Baltic states then compare it to PB heartthrob Meloni’s Italy), because military support is a state level responsibility.

  5
• Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,756

  4:22PM

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  10
• Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,261

  4:23PM edited 4:24PM

  Roger said:

  It's difficult to have an opinion of Badenoch when she lets loose. I don't think many take her seriously or care what she thinks or says about anything or anyone.
  
  In todays parlance she is an unserious person

  Actually on the two child cap Badenoch speaks for the majority 59%/26%
  
  https://news.sky.com/story/labours-dilemma-the-two-child-benefit-cap-13464798

  1
• nico67 Posts: 6,651

  4:23PM

  Apparently there’s a security guarantee from the USA !
  
  Oh yes the backstabbing Judas traitor will come to Ukraines aid ! If the EU and UK don’t step up and tell Trump to go fxck himself ( of course in more diplomatic terms ) then all those Ukrainian lives lost would be for nothing.

  2
• kle4 Posts: 99,650

  4:23PM

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  Big and slow handclap for all those [moderated] who said Trump would be better for Ukraine than Harris.

  That never made a lick of sense, and was just a big cope. It was mostly British people who backed Trump claiming it, when it would have been better to just say they felt he was best overall, even though he was very clearly going to turn on Ukraine - it's not as though that was the defining issue for Americans themselves, so no point pretending his stance was going to be positive.
  
  Ukraine is totally f*cked.

  0
• TimS Posts: 16,414

  4:24PM

  nico67 said:

  Apparently there’s a security guarantee from the USA !
  
  Oh yes the backstabbing Judas traitor will come to Ukraines aid ! If the EU and UK don’t step up and tell Trump to go fxck himself ( of course in more diplomatic terms ) then all those Ukrainian lives lost would be for nothing.

  A security guarantee Ukraine has to pay for. Protection money.

  2
• kle4 Posts: 99,650

  4:26PM

  Taz said:

  Scott_xP said:

  @ChristopherJM
  
  BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
  
  “Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
  
  https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1991887141090054644?s=20

  Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable

  Not going to happen.
  
  Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.

  2
• TheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,885

  4:26PM

  Taz said:

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  Taz said:

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  Big and slow handclap for all those [moderated] who said Trump would be better for Ukraine than Harris.

  Harris was a dreadful candidate.

  She was but I'll still take her over Tump, she would never have sold out Ukraine like this.

  Did you vote for her ?

  I didn't have a vote but I encouraged those that did to vote for her.

  1
• Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,261

  4:29PM

  nico67 said:

  Apparently there’s a security guarantee from the USA !
  
  Oh yes the backstabbing Judas traitor will come to Ukraines aid ! If the EU and UK don’t step up and tell Trump to go fxck himself ( of course in more diplomatic terms ) then all those Ukrainian lives lost would be for nothing.

  As much as we would like the UK and EU to step up they are spectators at the Trump/Putin carve up
  
  I fear Trump will win a shoddy and horrible peace

  1
• IanB2 Posts: 53,292

  4:29PM edited 4:30PM

  Bishops have no place in politics. Nor in forcing us to go take a crap at ten to eight of a morning while listening to Radio 4. Although it does keep us nice and regular.

  3
• algarkirk Posts: 15,849

  4:29PM

  Roger said:

  It's difficult to have an opinion of Badenoch when she lets loose. I don't think many take her seriously or care what she thinks or says about anything or anyone.
  
  In todays parlance she is an unserious person

  Roger said:

  It's difficult to have an opinion of Badenoch when she lets loose. I don't think many take her seriously or care what she thinks or says about anything or anyone.
  
  In todays parlance she is an unserious person

  No-one who knows the Church of England and its culture a bit would say, except as a trivial joke that 'it is the Labour party at prayer'. As a public sentiment it just suggests naivety, ignorance and thoughtlessness.
  
  

  1
• Roger Posts: 21,475

  4:30PM

  I wonder what happens to those Ukrainians who have been living in other European countries since the war started. My Brother and his family have had a mother and son living with them since the beginning. The son was 17 then so I guess he's 20 now.
  
  Will all the countries who took them in send them back? Will the boy be tried in Ukraine for draft dodging? I believe boys were supposed to return when they reached 18. It's going to be quite a mess

  0
• boulay Posts: 7,825

  4:31PM

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  Taz said:

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  Big and slow handclap for all those [moderated] who said Trump would be better for Ukraine than Harris.

  Harris was a dreadful candidate.

  She was but I'll still take her over Tump, she would never have sold out Ukraine like this.

  I hope Trump’s grandchildren find themselves changing their surname to escape the connection because it will mean that eventually Americans had seen through the disgusting. Venal sack of shit that he is. This attempted sell out of Ukraine should live in infamy when people discuss the worst US presidents.

  6
• bondegezou Posts: 17,085

  4:31PM

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Over €187 billion in support?

  1
• Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,261

  4:31PM

  IanB2 said:

  Bishops have no place in politics. Nor in forcing us to go take a crap at ten to eight of a morning while listening to Radio 4. Although it does keep us nice and regular.

  Agreed entirely

  1
• LostPassword Posts: 21,105

  4:32PM

  kle4 said:

  Taz said:

  Scott_xP said:

  @ChristopherJM
  
  BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
  
  “Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
  
  https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1991887141090054644?s=20

  Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable

  Not going to happen.
  
  Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.

  I've criticised Europe's willingness to act sufficiently strongly, but many European countries did increase their contributions to make up for Trump stopping further US contributions. They have been reluctant and slow, but they have always done just enough to prevent Ukraine's outright defeat.
  
  Most European politicians have come out verbally quite strongly against this deal and in support of Ukraine, so I'd expect them to back that with further action, eventually. This surrender plan might provide the impetus to get the frozen asset loan over the line, for example.

  0
• Taz Posts: 22,451

  4:33PM

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  0
• kinabalu Posts: 48,098

  4:33PM

  IanB2 said:

  Bishops have no place in politics. Nor in forcing us to go take a crap at ten to eight of a morning while listening to Radio 4. Although it does keep us nice and regular.

  Mawk for the day.

  -1
• algarkirk Posts: 15,849

  4:34PM

  IanB2 said:

  Bishops have no place in politics. Nor in forcing us to go take a crap at ten to eight of a morning while listening to Radio 4. Although it does keep us nice and regular.

  This sounds splendid, but the world in which there is no overlap between the stuff of politics and the stuff of 'right and wrong', ethics, morality and all the things which appear to be the domain of spirituality and religions does not exist. Or to put it another way, politics seems to keep intruding into those spiritual and religious areas of life.
  
  

  1
• LostPassword Posts: 21,105

  4:36PM

  Roger said:

  I wonder what happens to those Ukrainians who have been living in other European countries since the war started. My Brother and his family have had a mother and son living with them since the beginning. The son was 17 then so I guess he's 20 now.
  
  Will all the countries who took them in send them back? Will the boy be tried in Ukraine for draft dodging? I believe boys were supposed to return when they reached 18. It's going to be quite a mess

  There's a shortage of housing in Ukraine, because of the destruction wrought by Russia, and because many Ukrainians won't want to return to areas occupied by Russia, so it would be very hard for lots of the Ukrainians who left Ukraine to return soon after a ceasefire. A lot of rebuilding will need to happen.

  1
• kinabalu Posts: 48,098

  4:36PM

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  Big and slow handclap for all those [moderated] who said Trump would be better for Ukraine than Harris.

  He isn't better for anything than anybody.

  1
• Sean_F Posts: 39,956

  4:38PM

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  2
• Taz Posts: 22,451

  4:38PM

  Roger said:

  I wonder what happens to those Ukrainians who have been living in other European countries since the war started. My Brother and his family have had a mother and son living with them since the beginning. The son was 17 then so I guess he's 20 now.
  
  Will all the countries who took them in send them back? Will the boy be tried in Ukraine for draft dodging? I believe boys were supposed to return when they reached 18. It's going to be quite a mess

  Also what about the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children stolen by Russia. This deal normalises the stealing of children
  
  I’m appalled at it

  1
• Taz Posts: 22,451

  4:39PM

  kle4 said:

  Taz said:

  Scott_xP said:

  @ChristopherJM
  
  BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
  
  “Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
  
  https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1991887141090054644?s=20

  Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable

  Not going to happen.
  
  Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.

  Sadly you’re right

  0
• boulay Posts: 7,825

  4:40PM

  Ukraine, UK and EU (and fellow travellers like Canada) should arrange and announce a summit with China to discuss a peace deal for Ukraine where China gets the access to minerals that Trump wants with Chinese security guarantees for Ukraine and watch Trump have an aneurism.

  4
• kinabalu Posts: 48,098

  4:42PM

  boulay said:

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  Taz said:

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  Big and slow handclap for all those [moderated] who said Trump would be better for Ukraine than Harris.

  Harris was a dreadful candidate.

  She was but I'll still take her over Tump, she would never have sold out Ukraine like this.

  I hope Trump’s grandchildren find themselves changing their surname to escape the connection because it will mean that eventually Americans had seen through the disgusting. Venal sack of shit that he is. This attempted sell out of Ukraine should live in infamy when people discuss the worst US presidents.

  'Worst US president' has become a debate needing all of five seconds to conclude.

  2
• Taz Posts: 22,451

  4:42PM

  bondegezou said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Over €187 billion in support?

  Wow
  
  Amazing
  
  A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal

  1
• Taz Posts: 22,451

  4:44PM

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  0
• Theuniondivvie Posts: 45,921

  4:45PM edited 4:45PM

  boulay said:

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  Taz said:

  TheScreamingEagles said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  Big and slow handclap for all those [moderated] who said Trump would be better for Ukraine than Harris.

  Harris was a dreadful candidate.

  She was but I'll still take her over Tump, she would never have sold out Ukraine like this.

  I hope Trump’s grandchildren find themselves changing their surname to escape the connection because it will mean that eventually Americans had seen through the disgusting. Venal sack of shit that he is. This attempted sell out of Ukraine should live in infamy when people discuss the worst US presidents.

  ‘So Barron Hitler, I think you made the right choice for the name change.’

  0
• LostPassword Posts: 21,105

  4:45PM

  boulay said:

  Ukraine, UK and EU (and fellow travellers like Canada) should arrange and announce a summit with China to discuss a peace deal for Ukraine where China gets the access to minerals that Trump wants with Chinese security guarantees for Ukraine and watch Trump have an aneurism.

  Apparently delegates have been asking China to take a leading role at the climate negotiations in the absence of the US, but they have demurred. I think you'd struggle to get China interested.

  1
• boulay Posts: 7,825

  4:47PM

  LostPassword said:

  boulay said:

  Ukraine, UK and EU (and fellow travellers like Canada) should arrange and announce a summit with China to discuss a peace deal for Ukraine where China gets the access to minerals that Trump wants with Chinese security guarantees for Ukraine and watch Trump have an aneurism.

  Apparently delegates have been asking China to take a leading role at the climate negotiations in the absence of the US, but they have demurred. I think you'd struggle to get China interested.

  If they feel that they are peeling off Europe, one of the biggest markets globally, from the US, removing them as support for the US v China, and had even more leverage over Russia then why not.

  0
• Theuniondivvie Posts: 45,921

  4:48PM

  Taz said:

  bondegezou said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Over €187 billion in support?

  Wow
  
  Amazing
  
  A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal

  What has your personal contribution been?
  Many a mickle maks a muckle as we say up here.

  1
• Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,261

  4:48PM

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  0
• kinabalu Posts: 48,098

  4:49PM

  kle4 said:

  Taz said:

  Scott_xP said:

  @ChristopherJM
  
  BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
  
  “Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
  
  https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1991887141090054644?s=20

  Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable

  Not going to happen.
  
  Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.

  You're not expecting this 'deal' to be implemented, are you? I can't see how it will be.

  0
• Pulpstar Posts: 80,356

  4:49PM

  Taz said:

  bondegezou said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Over €187 billion in support?

  Wow
  
  Amazing
  
  A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal

  https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/these-countries-have-committed-the-most-aid-to-ukraine
  
  "Global aid to Ukraine since 2022 has reached a staggering 400 billion euros committed as of December 2024, or about $430 billion, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy. "
  
  Ukraine's had about $430Bn of aid in total apparently. Whisper it quietly but shouldn't they have been able to push the Russians back a bit more with that much ?

  0
• Nigelb Posts: 83,566

  4:49PM

  There is a glaringly obvious message for Europe in the 28 point plan: This is the end of the end.
  
  We have been told repeatedly and unambiguously that Ukraine’s security, and therefore Europe’s security, will be Europe’s responsibility. And now it is. Entirely.
  
  If you are a European leader asking your team to book you on the next flight to Washington to go talk to Daddy, please don’t.
  
  Not without a plan, not cap in hand, not humiliating us all in front of the cameras at the Oval office.
  
  Europe is our continent, our future is decided here, not there. We aren’t poor, we have options, we can finally decide to assist Ukraine to the full extent of our very extensive capabilities, restore European dignity and defend Europe.
  
  Or we can continue to wait for the miracle we now know is not coming.
  
  https://x.com/GLandsbergis/status/1991898379564269720
  

  4
• Benpointer Posts: 36,070

  4:50PM

  O/T
  
  If you run your finger across the closed lid of a Macbook, the matt anodised section has a much lower coefficient of friction than the mirrored-finish apple in the centre. It's counter-intuitive to the idea that smooth surfaces have less friction than rough ones.
  
  I find that interesting.

  2
• bondegezou Posts: 17,085

  4:50PM

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  His proposed peace plan for the war is extraordinarily generous to Russia. That doesn’t mean he’s an asset, but he might as well be if that’s the result.

  1
• Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,261

  4:50PM

  kinabalu said:

  kle4 said:

  Taz said:

  Scott_xP said:

  @ChristopherJM
  
  BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
  
  “Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
  
  https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1991887141090054644?s=20

  Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable

  Not going to happen.
  
  Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.

  You're not expecting this 'deal' to be implemented, are you? I can't see how it will be.

  Sadly I am

  0
• Nigelb Posts: 83,566

  4:51PM

  I spoke to a senior member of the State Department yesterday, after the Witkoff-Dmitriev pact was leaked, sending them the document and asking them if it was genuine.
  
  Their reaction: "This is the first time any of us have seen this".
  
  The document was later confirmed genuine.
  
  https://x.com/JimmySecUK/status/1991909823026516162

  1
• Sean_F Posts: 39,956

  4:51PM

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  Trump is a windbag. All we have to do is tell him to do one.

  0
• Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,261

  4:53PM

  Benpointer said:

  O/T
  
  If you run your finger across the closed lid of a Macbook, the matt anodised section has a much lower coefficient of friction than the mirrored-finish apple in the centre. It's counter-intuitive to the idea that smooth surfaces have less friction than rough ones.
  
  I find that interesting.

  Another amazing piece of information only here on PB

  0
• boulay Posts: 7,825

  4:53PM

  Pulpstar said:

  Taz said:

  bondegezou said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Over €187 billion in support?

  Wow
  
  Amazing
  
  A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal

  https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/these-countries-have-committed-the-most-aid-to-ukraine
  
  "Global aid to Ukraine since 2022 has reached a staggering 400 billion euros committed as of December 2024, or about $430 billion, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy. "
  
  Ukraine's had about $430Bn of aid in total apparently. Whisper it quietly but shouldn't they have been able to push the Russians back a bit more with that much ?

  If it was only about money then Napoleon would have defeated Russia, the US would have beaten Vietnam. Perhaps someone should have told the Russians who are entrenched in Ukraine and their drone operators, artillery men, missile crews that they need to pull back because the other side has had loads of money.
  
  

  3
• Nigelb Posts: 83,566

  4:54PM

  All the decisions concerning Poland will be taken by Poles. Nothing about us without us. When it comes to peace, all the negotiations should include Ukraine. Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.
  https://x.com/donaldtusk/status/1991835610877943812
  

  6
• bondegezou Posts: 17,085

  4:54PM

  Taz said:

  bondegezou said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Over €187 billion in support?

  Wow
  
  Amazing
  
  A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal

  The surrender deal is a result of Trump becoming President and giving the Russians what they want. It is nonsense to blame it on anyone else. The proposal does not reflect the facts on the ground, what Ukraine has achieved (with support from the EU, UK and others). Ukraine has not been forced into this deal by Russian military victory. No, Witkoff, with Trump's approval, has just come up with a plan that might as well have been dictated by Putin.

  4
• Foss Posts: 2,115

  4:55PM

  Benpointer said:

  O/T
  
  If you run your finger across the closed lid of a Macbook, the matt anodised section has a much lower coefficient of friction than the mirrored-finish apple in the centre. It's counter-intuitive to the idea that smooth surfaces have less friction than rough ones.
  
  I find that interesting.

  Is the trackpad feed-back still entirely haptic? It's an odd feeling when you've accidentally discharged the battery and you don't get the feeling of movement that you expect.

  0
• Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,756

  4:55PM

  Pulpstar said:

  Taz said:

  bondegezou said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Over €187 billion in support?

  Wow
  
  Amazing
  
  A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal

  https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/these-countries-have-committed-the-most-aid-to-ukraine
  
  "Global aid to Ukraine since 2022 has reached a staggering 400 billion euros committed as of December 2024, or about $430 billion, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy. "
  
  Ukraine's had about $430Bn of aid in total apparently. Whisper it quietly but shouldn't they have been able to push the Russians back a bit more with that much ?

  No. Because with all the aid in the world you can't win a war with both hands tied behind your back against an enemy who will happily sacrifice millions of their people to achieve their aims.
  
  Maybe if from the start they had been allowed to use their weapons to attack Russia directly. MAybe if they hadn't had the US withdrawing support every time tey looked like actually achieving something.
  
  But with a Russian asset in the Whitehouse they were bascially screwed.

  4
• Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,756

  4:57PM

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.

  0
• Sean_F Posts: 39,956

  4:58PM

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.

  In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.

  3
• bondegezou Posts: 17,085

  4:59PM

  Nigelb said:

  There is a glaringly obvious message for Europe in the 28 point plan: This is the end of the end.
  
  We have been told repeatedly and unambiguously that Ukraine’s security, and therefore Europe’s security, will be Europe’s responsibility. And now it is. Entirely.
  
  If you are a European leader asking your team to book you on the next flight to Washington to go talk to Daddy, please don’t.
  
  Not without a plan, not cap in hand, not humiliating us all in front of the cameras at the Oval office.
  
  Europe is our continent, our future is decided here, not there. We aren’t poor, we have options, we can finally decide to assist Ukraine to the full extent of our very extensive capabilities, restore European dignity and defend Europe.
  
  Or we can continue to wait for the miracle we now know is not coming.
  
  https://x.com/GLandsbergis/status/1991898379564269720
  

  Trump changes his mind more often than his underwear (which might explain the smell). This proposal is disgusting, but Trump is fickle. He could well have completely changed his mind by next month. Yes, Europe needs to be able to stand without the US, but, no, this isn't necessarily the last word from the Trump administration. Pressure internally and externally may have an effect. Europe shouldn't be dependent on Trump's whims, so Europe does need to be able to stand without the US, but I don't think we should dismiss that his whims might come back around to a more sensible position for a period.

  1
• Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,261

  4:59PM

  Sean_F said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  Trump is a windbag. All we have to do is tell him to do one.

  As if it is that simple

  0
• Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,756

  5:00PM

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Everything he says and does as far as Russia is concerned. He is a traitor and in an ideal world he would end up like the President at the end of Civil War.

  0
• TOPPING Posts: 44,463

  5:01PM

  fpt

  kinabalu said:

  noneoftheabove said:

  bondegezou said:

  noneoftheabove said:

  bondegezou said:

  TOPPING said:

  kinabalu said:

  TOPPING said:

  kinabalu said:

  TOPPING said:

  kinabalu said:

  Carnyx said:

  kinabalu said:

  OnlyLivingBoy said:

  PJH said:

  OnlyLivingBoy said:

  Andy_JS said:

  "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
  By Amanda Williams"
  
  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

  Lol. What a load of crap.

  For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
  
  As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.

  It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.

  And all those tall buildings. Scary.

  Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?

  Lol, I imagine so.
  
  The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
  
  1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
  2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
  3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
  
  Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.

  There is a legitimate concern in some part of London of neighbourhoods' character changing. "White flight" as I believe it is called. Now, don't get me wrong. Walking down the Costa del Sol there's nothing I like better than a row of Spoons, Harry Ramsden's chippies, and sports bars showing Coventry vs Stoke on its five TV screens, but some say that it is an okay thing to want to preserve the character (ofc people vary on their choice of T= 0).
  
  From my perspective, I don't mind if leafy suburbs, previously the preserve of the intelligentsia and literary types, are opened up to loadsamoney oiks who've made it in the City but you have to understand how some people think.

  Can't fault you for effort on that one.

  Nor I for your whole "fitting in to NW3" effort.

  You seem to be bristling at something. Cmon spit it out.

  I am bristling at the fact that imposters such as you - and I mention this only because I appreciate that, as an incomers
  yourself, you feel exposed - don't allow yourseves to acknowledge that there are legitimate concerns over the changing character of some neighbourhoods.
  
  Now, you won't find a greater fan of London than me but as mentioned earlier, that is probably because I am insulated from some of the issues that others face (although I did see in spitting distance not so long ago, a phone being snatched out of the hand of some rugger bugger on Sloane Square if you can imagine it). I don't need to worry about the changing face of my neighbourhood or of feeling dislocated from somewhere that might previously have been homogenous in its character, or more homogenous.
  
  We are in this pickle rn with Reform riding high precisely because of people like you who have chosen to dismiss any concern as invalid. Had there been more of an understanding of those concerns we would all be getting on with worrying about the tax status of a Jaffa Cake rather than immigration dominating the political discourse (crystalised most clearly to many in London).
  
  Is why I'm bristling. Because it's your fault.

  As someone who was born in London and lived most of my life here, may I ask what specific bit of London do you feel has significantly changed character in recent years, and in what way?

  Loads of areas have changed significantly. Kings Cross from red light district with petty crime to tourist and commercial, Shoreditch from forgotten to hipster and many more. But there has always been change in London, the idea that it ever stayed the same from grand parents to grand childrens generations is the myth here.

  Indeed, but is TOPPING, or whoever, complaining about those particular examples of changed character?

  It will be mostly be Islamification in Mile End, Romford etc. That is also true and causes problems for some. But immigrants arriving in London and moving outwards over generations is again nothing new.

  It's essentially a rerun of 'rivers of blood' but this time it's about Muslims rather than non-white people from the Commonwealth.

  Not quite. Islamification is different from immigration. The key issue is that you (and hence my previous posts) overlook the distinction, invoking Enoch Powell, and here we are.

  1
• Sean_F Posts: 39,956

  5:01PM

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Sean_F said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  Trump is a windbag. All we have to do is tell him to do one.

  As if it is that simple

  It is, if one has courage. The boldest course is the safest.

  1
• Nigelb Posts: 83,566

  5:01PM

  Trump may not be a Russian asset, but he might as well be.
  
  In the American ‘peace plan,’ some wording was found that had originally been written in Russian, The Guardian reports.
  
  Im surprised they even bothered to translate it.
  https://x.com/BohuslavskaKate/status/1991894854021111813
  
  If we accede to this plan, I predict the price we will pay over the next decade will surpass what it's cost us so far.
  

  2
• Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,651

  5:04PM

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Siding with Putin?

  0
• LostPassword Posts: 21,105

  5:04PM

  Pulpstar said:

  Taz said:

  bondegezou said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Over €187 billion in support?

  Wow
  
  Amazing
  
  A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal

  https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/these-countries-have-committed-the-most-aid-to-ukraine
  
  "Global aid to Ukraine since 2022 has reached a staggering 400 billion euros committed as of December 2024, or about $430 billion, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy. "
  
  Ukraine's had about $430Bn of aid in total apparently. Whisper it quietly but shouldn't they have been able to push the Russians back a bit more with that much ?

  During WWI and WWII the UK ran budget deficits of ~25-30% of GDP. UK GDP is today about $3.6tn, so 25% of UK GDP would be $900bn. Per year. So about eight times the annual support provided to Ukraine.
  
  Looks to me like the Ukrainians have done very well with the resources provided to them.

  4
• another_richard Posts: 28,537

  5:05PM

  Nigelb said:

  LostPassword said:

  Sean_F said:

  LostPassword said:

  We can see the threats from the US now. Reuters reporting that the US will stop providing weapons and intelligence support of Ukraine doesn't sign by Thanksgiving (in six days).

  The loss of intelligence would hurt, but far less than agreeing to surrender would.
  
  The loss of weaponry is an empty threat. The US has stopped supplying weapons, and their arms manufacturers won't stop selling them.

  Most US-weapons are supply-limited. Certainly for the next couple of years arms production could be diverted to rebuilding US stocks. I think the US could quite easily turn off weapons supplies to Ukraine if they wanted to.

  They could.
  But I think European re-armament has now got to the point where a sufficiently determined Europe might be able pick up the slack (certainly in something like artillery). The biggest deficit is in intelligence (satellite capacity) and communications (Starlink, etc).
  
  There is also a c.90% probability that Trump would fold if his bluff was called.

  Europe can do lots of things and could do even more with some planning and sacrifice.
  
  But it wont, it wouldn't and it will not because that would require some leadership.
  
  And as we have already seen standing up to Trump and calling his bluff is beyond the leadership capabilities of Europe's leaders.
  
  In much the same way we have PBers saying that Poland could defeat Russia.
  
  Perhaps it could but it wont because that would require some leadership.
  
  So Europe's leaders will do what they want to do which is hope the difficult things go away so that they can hand out more welfare.

  0
• Andy_JS Posts: 38,556

  5:07PM

  "Ed Hodgson
  @edhodgsoned
  Deputy Director for Research
  @moreincommon_
  
  Tracking our *negative* voting intention (who would Britons vote AGAINST):
  
  🌹Lab 38% (+15)
  ➡️ Ref: 29% (+7)
  🌳 Con: 8% (-2)
  🌏 Green: 3% (-1)
  🐦‍ LD: 3% (-1)
  
  changes w/ June 2025"
  
  https://x.com/edhodgsoned/status/1991887238972731844

  0
• Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,756

  5:08PM

  Sean_F said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.

  In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.

  Better still if we can get the rest of Five Eyes to do the same.

  2
• Cicero Posts: 3,961

  5:08PM

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.

  Menwith Hill is more important, we don't even know what they do there.
  
  The time has come to prepare for the evacuation of all US forces from the UK. There are 13 major bases, and various other depots.
  
  However we also need to deal with the cooperation agreement for the Trident Missiles, currently the systems are serviced in Kings Bay, Georgia. Trump is killing not just the NATO alliance, but the Five Eyes and the UK/US treaties. Unpicking over 80 years of cooperation will not be easy, but we should not be allied with a regime that funds and supports the Fascist fringe in Britain, undermining our democracy while hurling cheap abuse at the values that we all once held dear and cooperates with our deadliest enemy.

  2
• kinabalu Posts: 48,098

  5:09PM

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  kinabalu said:

  kle4 said:

  Taz said:

  Scott_xP said:

  @ChristopherJM
  
  BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
  
  “Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
  
  https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1991887141090054644?s=20

  Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable

  Not going to happen.
  
  Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.

  You're not expecting this 'deal' to be implemented, are you? I can't see how it will be.

  Sadly I am

  I doubt it. I think the war carries on. But it probably does mark the end of the pretence that the US remains an ally of Europe.

  4
• Mexicanpete Posts: 35,793

  5:11PM

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  I have followed the Gill case in some detail. I can't help feeling in my water that Gill was anything but a lone wolf. I just can't pinpoint who else might have been involved.
  
  And as for those PB right wingers crying into their beer because a kindred spirit has been thrown to the dogs by the judicial system, he deserved every day of his ten and a half year sentence (5 and 1/4 really).

  8
• LostPassword Posts: 21,105

  5:12PM

  Pulpstar said:

  Taz said:

  bondegezou said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Over €187 billion in support?

  Wow
  
  Amazing
  
  A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal

  https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/these-countries-have-committed-the-most-aid-to-ukraine
  
  "Global aid to Ukraine since 2022 has reached a staggering 400 billion euros committed as of December 2024, or about $430 billion, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy. "
  
  Ukraine's had about $430Bn of aid in total apparently. Whisper it quietly but shouldn't they have been able to push the Russians back a bit more with that much ?

  In December 2024 the US estimated that Russia had spent $200bn on the war, and it started with a larger military with more equipment. So the disparity in terms of spending is not so great, particularly when you consider that the value of support provided to Ukraine has been kinda inflated by valuing the military equipment in terms of its cost when new, and Russia has lower production costs than Western armaments factories, so $1bn spent in Russia buys you more artillery shells than $1bn spent in Europe/US..

  0
• CumberlandGap Posts: 224

  5:12PM

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.

  1
• Carnyx Posts: 46,616

  5:14PM edited 5:14PM

  Benpointer said:

  O/T
  
  If you run your finger across the closed lid of a Macbook, the matt anodised section has a much lower coefficient of friction than the mirrored-finish apple in the centre. It's counter-intuitive to the idea that smooth surfaces have less friction than rough ones.
  
  I find that interesting.

  The tiny scales/denticles (literally, teeth - or rather teeth are modified skin denticles) on sharks make them more streamlined than totally smooth skin, [edit] because there is less surface drag (ir friction). Obviously that's to do with the skin drag of water moving over the skin at specific speeds for the size of the animal (ie particular ranges of Re for those who know).
  
  But I wonder if there's something analogous going on with the anodised section - maybe the way in which it grips the skin. Or air is trapped/not trapped under the moving finger.

  0
• another_richard Posts: 28,537

  5:14PM

  another_richard said:

  Nigelb said:

  LostPassword said:

  Sean_F said:

  LostPassword said:

  We can see the threats from the US now. Reuters reporting that the US will stop providing weapons and intelligence support of Ukraine doesn't sign by Thanksgiving (in six days).

  The loss of intelligence would hurt, but far less than agreeing to surrender would.
  
  The loss of weaponry is an empty threat. The US has stopped supplying weapons, and their arms manufacturers won't stop selling them.

  Most US-weapons are supply-limited. Certainly for the next couple of years arms production could be diverted to rebuilding US stocks. I think the US could quite easily turn off weapons supplies to Ukraine if they wanted to.

  They could.
  But I think European re-armament has now got to the point where a sufficiently determined Europe might be able pick up the slack (certainly in something like artillery). The biggest deficit is in intelligence (satellite capacity) and communications (Starlink, etc).
  
  There is also a c.90% probability that Trump would fold if his bluff was called.

  Europe can do lots of things and could do even more with some planning and sacrifice.
  
  But it wont, it wouldn't and it will not because that would require some leadership.
  
  And as we have already seen standing up to Trump and calling his bluff is beyond the leadership capabilities of Europe's leaders.
  
  In much the same way we have PBers saying that Poland could defeat Russia.
  
  Perhaps it could but it wont because that would require some leadership.
  
  So Europe's leaders will do what they want to do which is hope the difficult things go away so that they can hand out more welfare.

  Welfare with its financial and social costs is, of course, another problem which Europe's leaders don't want to deal with.
  
  There does seem to be a multitude of welfare schemes which people fund but never receive. Here are three I didn't know about previously:
  
  Payments of up to £250 per household could be made to Rotherham residents who are struggling with their energy bills this winter.
  
  Rotherham Council has launched its Energy Crisis Support Scheme, with £500,000 available to help people cope.
  
  ...
  
  The money available in Rotherham is in addition to national schemes to help people with their bills, including the £150 Warm Home Discount and Winter Fuel Payment.
  
  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8x1y5p8epvo
  
  https://www.gov.uk/the-warm-home-discount-scheme
  https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment
  https://www.rotherham.gov.uk/housing-grants-finance/apply-energy-crisis-support-scheme
  
  Meanwhile we have talk about VAT being removed from domestic energy bills, in large part because other government policies are causing energy bills to increase.
  

  0
• Ratters Posts: 1,614

  5:16PM

  Pulpstar said:

  Taz said:

  bondegezou said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  Over €187 billion in support?

  Wow
  
  Amazing
  
  A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal

  https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/these-countries-have-committed-the-most-aid-to-ukraine
  
  "Global aid to Ukraine since 2022 has reached a staggering 400 billion euros committed as of December 2024, or about $430 billion, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy. "
  
  Ukraine's had about $430Bn of aid in total apparently. Whisper it quietly but shouldn't they have been able to push the Russians back a bit more with that much ?

  They have forced a supposed superpower to an essential stalemate where Russia is losing hundreds of thousands of men to gain small muddy fields. And made big gains from the initial Russian advance, for example in Kherson.
  
  The initial forecast was that Russia would have control of almost the entire country in a matter of days.
  
  Any suggestion that Ukraine has performed anything short of exceptionally is absurd.

  4
• Nigelb Posts: 83,566

  5:16PM

  CumberlandGap said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.

  A niche view.

  5
• Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,261

  5:17PM

  Mexicanpete said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  I have followed the Gill case in some detail. I can't help feeling in my water that Gill was anything but a lone wolf. I just can't pinpoint who else might have been involved.
  
  And as for those PB right wingers crying into their beer because a kindred spirit has been thrown to the dogs by the judicial system, he deserved every day of his ten and a half year sentence (5 and 1/4 really).

  We don't often agree but you have be on Gill's case for sometime now so much so I wanted to listen to the judgement and it was corriscating and all you claimed it to be
  
  I also agree it is highly unlikely he was a lone wolf
  
  His sentence could have been much more

  2
• Nigelb Posts: 83,566

  5:17PM

  Tracking our *negative* voting intention (who would Britons vote AGAINST):
  
  🌹Lab 38% (+15)
  ➡️ Ref: 29% (+7)
  🌳 Con: 8% (-2)
  🌏 Green: 3% (-1)
  🐦‍ LD: 3% (-1)
  changes w/ June 2025
  
  So Labour has become considerably more hated in the last few months - the Tories notably less so
  https://x.com/edhodgsoned/status/1991887238972731844
  

  0
• bondegezou Posts: 17,085

  5:17PM

  CumberlandGap said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.

  So, you think Biden was worse? Are you completely bonkers? The US still had the rule of law under Biden. The US still had friendly relations with its allies under Biden.

  9
• bondegezou Posts: 17,085

  5:19PM

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Mexicanpete said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  I have followed the Gill case in some detail. I can't help feeling in my water that Gill was anything but a lone wolf. I just can't pinpoint who else might have been involved.
  
  And as for those PB right wingers crying into their beer because a kindred spirit has been thrown to the dogs by the judicial system, he deserved every day of his ten and a half year sentence (5 and 1/4 really).

  We don't often agree but you have be on Gill's case for sometime now so much so I wanted to listen to the judgement and it was corriscating and all you claimed it to be
  
  I also agree it is highly unlikely he was a lone wolf
  
  His sentence could have been much more

  I think you mean "excoriating" rather than "coruscating", which means to sparkle.

  2
• Nigelb Posts: 83,566

  5:19PM

  LibDems quick off the mark with a Farage in Putin's pocket leaflet.
  https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1991902219344724174

  4
• bondegezou Posts: 17,085

  5:20PM

  Nigelb said:

  LibDems quick off the mark with a Farage in Putin's pocket leaflet.
  https://x.com/tomhfh/status/1991902219344724174

  Good work, but needs a slightly more Putin-y looking picture of Putin.

  0
• Carnyx Posts: 46,616

  5:20PM edited 5:21PM

  Nigelb said:

  Tracking our *negative* voting intention (who would Britons vote AGAINST):
  
  🌹Lab 38% (+15)
  ➡️ Ref: 29% (+7)
  🌳 Con: 8% (-2)
  🌏 Green: 3% (-1)
  🐦‍ LD: 3% (-1)
  changes w/ June 2025
  
  So Labour has become considerably more hated in the last few months - the Tories notably less so
  https://x.com/edhodgsoned/status/1991887238972731844
  

  Oderint dum metuant, and all that, though.
  
  The Tories may conceivably be disregarded as a mickey mouse bunch, for all one knows: not worth bothering voting against. It's significant that neither Alba nor Count Binface are on the list.
  
  (I am not sure. But still.)

  1
• Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,651

  5:21PM

  CumberlandGap said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.

  The Trump man-love is strong with this one!

  0
• Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,261

  5:22PM

  bondegezou said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Mexicanpete said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  I have followed the Gill case in some detail. I can't help feeling in my water that Gill was anything but a lone wolf. I just can't pinpoint who else might have been involved.
  
  And as for those PB right wingers crying into their beer because a kindred spirit has been thrown to the dogs by the judicial system, he deserved every day of his ten and a half year sentence (5 and 1/4 really).

  We don't often agree but you have be on Gill's case for sometime now so much so I wanted to listen to the judgement and it was corriscating and all you claimed it to be
  
  I also agree it is highly unlikely he was a lone wolf
  
  His sentence could have been much more

  I think you mean "excoriating" rather than "coruscating", which means to sparkle.

  Indeed

  0
• another_richard Posts: 28,537

  5:22PM

  kinabalu said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  kinabalu said:

  kle4 said:

  Taz said:

  Scott_xP said:

  @ChristopherJM
  
  BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
  
  “Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
  
  https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1991887141090054644?s=20

  Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable

  Not going to happen.
  
  Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.

  You're not expecting this 'deal' to be implemented, are you? I can't see how it will be.

  Sadly I am

  I doubt it. I think the war carries on. But it probably does mark the end of the pretence that the US remains an ally of Europe.

  I think the USA was an ally of Europe when it suited the interests of the USA.
  
  As these interest generally aligned with those of Western Europe for several decades that was good.
  
  But it was casually complacent to think that would always be the case.
  
  At least Trump is so blatant ** that the pretence cannot be maintained.
  
  ** Not to mention also so incompetent, brutish and corrupt.
  

  0
• Burgessian Posts: 3,263

  5:23PM

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Trump is a narcissist. It's all about him.
  
  Putin flatters him. He's Trump's kind of guy. While Zelenskyy didn't co-operate in the Biden smear op in Trump's first term.
  
  He's not an "asset". It's just that his personality type makes him act like one.
  
  Meanwhile the fate of a country of 40m is decided by two amoral grotesques.

  4
• Ratters Posts: 1,614

  5:23PM

  Also, Trump's approval rating continues to nose dive in the US:
  
  
  Hopefully he'll be a lame duck President with diminished authority even amongst Republicans within the next year.
  
  Ukraine just needs to hold on until the Russian stooge is off the stage.

  0
• CumberlandGap Posts: 224

  5:23PM

  Sunil_Prasannan said:

  CumberlandGap said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  Taz said:

  Sean_F said:

  Taz said:

  Richard_Tyndall said:

  Taz said:

  TimS said:

  Fpt
  
  Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
  
  Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.

  So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?

  More than Trump.
  
  Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
  
  On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.

  More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
  
  This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
  
  You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?

  Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
  
  This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.

  So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism

  And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
  
  Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world

  Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.

  The Trump man-love is strong with this one!

  I could possibly say that the 2020s has had the worst pair of presidents since the 1970s however.

  0
• another_richard Posts: 28,537

  5:26PM

  Nigelb said:

  Tracking our *negative* voting intention (who would Britons vote AGAINST):
  
  🌹Lab 38% (+15)
  ➡️ Ref: 29% (+7)
  🌳 Con: 8% (-2)
  🌏 Green: 3% (-1)
  🐦‍ LD: 3% (-1)
  changes w/ June 2025
  
  So Labour has become considerably more hated in the last few months - the Tories notably less so
  https://x.com/edhodgsoned/status/1991887238972731844
  

  And likely a reversal of what it was two years ago.
  
  Its effectively the 'I blame the government' vote.
  

  2
• bondegezou Posts: 17,085

  5:26PM

  another_richard said:

  kinabalu said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  kinabalu said:

  kle4 said:

  Taz said:

  Scott_xP said:

  @ChristopherJM
  
  BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
  
  “Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
  
  https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1991887141090054644?s=20

  Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable

  Not going to happen.
  
  Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.

  You're not expecting this 'deal' to be implemented, are you? I can't see how it will be.

  Sadly I am

  I doubt it. I think the war carries on. But it probably does mark the end of the pretence that the US remains an ally of Europe.

  I think the USA was an ally of Europe when it suited the interests of the USA.
  
  As these interest generally aligned with those of Western Europe for several decades that was good.
  
  But it was casually complacent to think that would always be the case.
  
  At least Trump is so blatant ** that the pretence cannot be maintained.
  
  ** Not to mention also so incompetent, brutish and corrupt.
  

  I think that's a little too cynical. The US and western Europe did share a friendship, a worldview, a set of beliefs, around freedom, capitalism and the international order, that went mere cold calculation that an alliance was more useful than not. It wasn't (entirely) a pretence, nor do I think it's gone for good. It depends on whether the US can shake off its malaise.

  2
• Nigelb Posts: 83,566

  5:26PM

  Nigelb said:

  All the decisions concerning Poland will be taken by Poles. Nothing about us without us. When it comes to peace, all the negotiations should include Ukraine. Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.
  https://x.com/donaldtusk/status/1991835610877943812
  

  Tusk may be understandably surprised to learn that the US and Russia have cooked up a text which specifically says European fighter jets will be based in Poland, without actually consulting Poland.
  https://x.com/shashj/status/1991875704917749982

  0
• williamglenn Posts: 56,455

  5:27PM

  Nigelb said:

  Tracking our *negative* voting intention (who would Britons vote AGAINST):
  
  🌹Lab 38% (+15)
  ➡️ Ref: 29% (+7)
  🌳 Con: 8% (-2)
  🌏 Green: 3% (-1)
  🐦‍ LD: 3% (-1)
  changes w/ June 2025
  
  So Labour has become considerably more hated in the last few months - the Tories notably less so
  https://x.com/edhodgsoned/status/1991887238972731844
  

  Badenoch's not doing a bad job when you take into account the hand she's been dealt.

  1
• Andy_JS Posts: 38,556

  5:29PM

  williamglenn said:

  Nigelb said:

  Tracking our *negative* voting intention (who would Britons vote AGAINST):
  
  🌹Lab 38% (+15)
  ➡️ Ref: 29% (+7)
  🌳 Con: 8% (-2)
  🌏 Green: 3% (-1)
  🐦‍ LD: 3% (-1)
  changes w/ June 2025
  
  So Labour has become considerably more hated in the last few months - the Tories notably less so
  https://x.com/edhodgsoned/status/1991887238972731844
  

  Badenoch's not doing a bad job when you take into account the hand she's been dealt.

  The Tories are very close to taking back second place in the polling averages. At the moment they're about half a percentage point behind.

  2
• numbertwelve Posts: 8,423

  5:30PM

  Nigelb said:

  Tracking our *negative* voting intention (who would Britons vote AGAINST):
  
  🌹Lab 38% (+15)
  ➡️ Ref: 29% (+7)
  🌳 Con: 8% (-2)
  🌏 Green: 3% (-1)
  🐦‍ LD: 3% (-1)
  changes w/ June 2025
  
  So Labour has become considerably more hated in the last few months - the Tories notably less so
  https://x.com/edhodgsoned/status/1991887238972731844
  

  Hence why the idea that Labour will hugely benefit from an anti-Reform tactical vote seems unlikely to me
  
  Some benefit, perhaps. But right now there’s enough people considering voting against Labour to cancel that out.

  1
• kinabalu Posts: 48,098

  5:31PM

  TOPPING said:

  fpt
  

  kinabalu said:

  noneoftheabove said:

  bondegezou said:

  noneoftheabove said:

  bondegezou said:

  TOPPING said:

  kinabalu said:

  TOPPING said:

  kinabalu said:

  TOPPING said:

  kinabalu said:

  Carnyx said:

  kinabalu said:

  OnlyLivingBoy said:

  PJH said:

  OnlyLivingBoy said:

  Andy_JS said:

  "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
  By Amanda Williams"
  
  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

  Lol. What a load of crap.

  For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
  
  As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.

  It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.

  And all those tall buildings. Scary.

  Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?

  Lol, I imagine so.
  
  The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
  
  1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
  2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
  3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
  
  Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.

  There is a legitimate concern in some part of London of neighbourhoods' character changing. "White flight" as I believe it is called. Now, don't get me wrong. Walking down the Costa del Sol there's nothing I like better than a row of Spoons, Harry Ramsden's chippies, and sports bars showing Coventry vs Stoke on its five TV screens, but some say that it is an okay thing to want to preserve the character (ofc people vary on their choice of T= 0).
  
  From my perspective, I don't mind if leafy suburbs, previously the preserve of the intelligentsia and literary types, are opened up to loadsamoney oiks who've made it in the City but you have to understand how some people think.

  Can't fault you for effort on that one.

  Nor I for your whole "fitting in to NW3" effort.

  You seem to be bristling at something. Cmon spit it out.

  I am bristling at the fact that imposters such as you - and I mention this only because I appreciate that, as an incomers
  yourself, you feel exposed - don't allow yourseves to acknowledge that there are legitimate concerns over the changing character of some neighbourhoods.
  
  Now, you won't find a greater fan of London than me but as mentioned earlier, that is probably because I am insulated from some of the issues that others face (although I did see in spitting distance not so long ago, a phone being snatched out of the hand of some rugger bugger on Sloane Square if you can imagine it). I don't need to worry about the changing face of my neighbourhood or of feeling dislocated from somewhere that might previously have been homogenous in its character, or more homogenous.
  
  We are in this pickle rn with Reform riding high precisely because of people like you who have chosen to dismiss any concern as invalid. Had there been more of an understanding of those concerns we would all be getting on with worrying about the tax status of a Jaffa Cake rather than immigration dominating the political discourse (crystalised most clearly to many in London).
  
  Is why I'm bristling. Because it's your fault.

  As someone who was born in London and lived most of my life here, may I ask what specific bit of London do you feel has significantly changed character in recent years, and in what way?

  Loads of areas have changed significantly. Kings Cross from red light district with petty crime to tourist and commercial, Shoreditch from forgotten to hipster and many more. But there has always been change in London, the idea that it ever stayed the same from grand parents to grand childrens generations is the myth here.

  Indeed, but is TOPPING, or whoever, complaining about those particular examples of changed character?

  It will be mostly be Islamification in Mile End, Romford etc. That is also true and causes problems for some. But immigrants arriving in London and moving outwards over generations is again nothing new.

  It's essentially a rerun of 'rivers of blood' but this time it's about Muslims rather than non-white people from the Commonwealth.

  Not quite. Islamification is different from immigration. The key issue is that you (and hence my previous posts) overlook the distinction, invoking Enoch Powell, and here we are.

  The black man will hold the whiphand over the white man ... 2025 update ... We will become part of the global caliphate.
  
  Such is our fate unless we stop (relevant minority) coming here and start deporting them instead.
  
  Of course times are different, and this isn't all of the immigration debate, either then or now, but there's a thread.

  0
• another_richard Posts: 28,537

  5:31PM

  bondegezou said:

  another_richard said:

  kinabalu said:

  Big_G_NorthWales said:

  kinabalu said:

  kle4 said:

  Taz said:

  Scott_xP said:

  @ChristopherJM
  
  BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
  
  “Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
  
  https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1991887141090054644?s=20

  Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable

  Not going to happen.
  
  Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.

  You're not expecting this 'deal' to be implemented, are you? I can't see how it will be.

  Sadly I am

  I doubt it. I think the war carries on. But it probably does mark the end of the pretence that the US remains an ally of Europe.

  I think the USA was an ally of Europe when it suited the interests of the USA.
  
  As these interests generally aligned with those of Western Europe for several decades that was good.
  
  But it was casually complacent to think that would always be the case.
  
  At least Trump is so blatant ** that the pretence cannot be maintained.
  
  ** Not to mention also so incompetent, brutish and corrupt.
  

  I think that's a little too cynical. The US and western Europe did share a friendship, a worldview, a set of beliefs, around freedom, capitalism and the international order, that went mere cold calculation that an alliance was more useful than not. It wasn't (entirely) a pretence, nor do I think it's gone for good. It depends on whether the US can shake off its malaise.

  Certainly but I would include that with aligned interests.
  
  And the USA was often willing for others to take the lead in spending blood and treasure in defending those things.

  0
• Andy_JS Posts: 38,556

  5:33PM

  "@JohnRentoul
  
  Nadia Whittome becomes the 2nd Labour MP (after Clive Lewis) to call for Keir Starmer to go"
  
  https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/1991856861436588378

  0