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Perceptions versus reality – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,798
edited 7:46AM in General
Perceptions versus reality – politicalbetting.com

How do public perceptions of government spending match with reality?A YouGov experiment put a series of govt spending areas as head to head match-ups and asked Britons to say which they thought more was spent onRead more here: yougov.co.uk/politics/art…

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Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,281
    First
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,281
    Off topic on this bleakest of ashes mornings. FFS England. It really is the hope that kills you.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,980
    FPT
    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,414
    Meanwhile, the proto-fascist calls for the death penalty against seditious lawmakers reminding military personnel of their obligations to the constitution under the Uniform Code of Military Justice...
  • eekeek Posts: 31,980

    Off topic on this bleakest of ashes mornings. FFS England. It really is the hope that kills you.

    You had hope - my expectations (albeit based on little) was a complete disaster for England based on our false hope. It seems I may have been right.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,281
    Then again maybe it’s just a really tough pitch….
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,872
    Was there rain at the test? How come England have only bowled 16 overs today?

    Holy shit, England were all out in 33 overs.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,057
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,353
    We're 9 runs ahead for the same fall of wicket.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,478
    Ooh, maybe it’s just a bowlers’ wicket after all?

    It’s the hope that gets you.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,057
    eek said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
    Read the report. Sandpit’s characterisation of it is inaccurate.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,414
    Fascinating stuff in the Epstein emails about the Epstein Bannon Farage axis.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,478

    Was there rain at the test? How come England have only bowled 16 overs today?

    Holy shit, England were all out in 33 overs.

    It’s that time again…


  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,414
    A lot of despair around this morning. All out in 33 overs seems suboptimal but we were always told it was giing to be a wicked pitch for fast bowlers.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,478

    eek said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
    Read the report. Sandpit’s characterisation of it is inaccurate.
    The whole purpose of these reports should be to look at what were good decisions, what with hindsight were bad decisions, what would have been done differently today, what information is important, what information was misleading, how did the characteristics of this particular disease differ from what had been planned for, what processes could be improved, what can government do to be better prepared for the next pandemic than the last one…

    There’s almost none of that in the report.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,057
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
    Read the report. Sandpit’s characterisation of it is inaccurate.
    The whole purpose of these reports should be to look at what were good decisions, what with hindsight were bad decisions, what would have been done differently today, what information is important, what information was misleading, how did the characteristics of this particular disease differ from what had been planned for, what processes could be improved, what can government do to be better prepared for the next pandemic than the last one…

    There’s almost none of that in the report.
    I don’t know what report you’ve been reading, but I’ve read plenty of

    what were good decisions;

    what with hindsight were bad decisions;

    what information was important;

    what information was misleading;

    how did the characteristics of this particular disease differ from what had been planned for; and

    what processes could be improved.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,828
    Yes I find it fascinating @TheScreamingEagles too. And thank you for the article btw. Can anybody tell me what software produces these graphs/visualisations.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,978
    What about the spending that’s going to be avoided?

    Some of the stuff coming out of Mahmoos’s plans to extend the waiting time for ILR pushes costs into the future. Her plans seem more rooted to economics than nationalism. Is the hand of the Treasury somewhere in the background guiding these policies?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,379
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
    Read the report. Sandpit’s characterisation of it is inaccurate.
    The whole purpose of these reports should be to look at what were good decisions, what with hindsight were bad decisions, what would have been done differently today, what information is important, what information was misleading, how did the characteristics of this particular disease differ from what had been planned for, what processes could be improved, what can government do to be better prepared for the next pandemic than the last one…

    There’s almost none of that in the report.
    Few people are interested in information. They're looking for people to blame.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,379
    Cookie said:

    A lot of despair around this morning. All out in 33 overs seems suboptimal but we were always told it was giing to be a wicked pitch for fast bowlers.

    Let's hope the opposition is all out in 32 overs.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,478
    Another £17.43bn borrowed last month.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20508068jno
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,872
    viewcode said:

    Yes I find it fascinating @TheScreamingEagles too. And thank you for the article btw. Can anybody tell me what software produces these graphs/visualisations.

    I shall ask YouGov for you.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,478
    Cookie said:

    A lot of despair around this morning. All out in 33 overs seems suboptimal but we were always told it was giing to be a wicked pitch for fast bowlers.

    So why on Earth did England choose to bat?

    I’m sure the convicts were over the moon with that decision, but didn’t expect to be batting on it themselves before tea.

    This has the potential to be a rare two-day Test Match.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,292
    Can you imagine being a Reform voter, so consistently wrong about everything?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,762

    Fascinating stuff in the Epstein emails about the Epstein Bannon Farage axis.
    Nathan Gill is sentenced today.

    I don't suppose this will register on the news.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,872
    edited 8:28AM
    The price cap is going up in January, that's not going to help the government's popularity.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,646

    The price cap is going up in January, that's not going to help the government's popularity.

    It’s £3 a year increase or 0.2% . I doubt we’ll see rioting in the streets .
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,414
    Hello everyone from North Pole North where a sharp frost has frozen the fresh snow overnight so that everything is crunchy. Schools are still open! But the footpaths are pretty lethal. Will be better later in the day once the council path plows have been at it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,604
    Sandpit said:

    Another £17.43bn borrowed last month.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20508068jno

    That's more than a Tory black hole a month....
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,839

    Fascinating stuff in the Epstein emails about the Epstein Bannon Farage axis.
    Nathan Gill is sentenced today.

    I don't suppose this will register on the news.
    I just saw it mentioned on the news. It was reported that his barrister expects a custodial sentence.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,604
    AnneJGP said:

    Cookie said:

    A lot of despair around this morning. All out in 33 overs seems suboptimal but we were always told it was giing to be a wicked pitch for fast bowlers.

    Let's hope the opposition is all out in 32 overs.
    Maybe less...
  • isamisam Posts: 43,043
    edited 8:36AM
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,598
    edited 8:36AM

    Hello everyone from North Pole North where a sharp frost has frozen the fresh snow overnight so that everything is crunchy. Schools are still open! But the footpaths are pretty lethal. Will be better later in the day once the council path plows have been at it.

    Frosty here too in Lothian - and the pavements in the peripheral areas of this town not de-iced (we did put road salt down outside our place). We have a supply of ice grips, crampon-like thingies, etc. for our boots. But bright sun and a thaw beginning.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,839

    Hello everyone from North Pole North where a sharp frost has frozen the fresh snow overnight so that everything is crunchy. Schools are still open! But the footpaths are pretty lethal. Will be better later in the day once the council path plows have been at it.

    Meanwhile I can hear parakeets flying by in tropical....


    ....west London.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,414
    Carnyx said:

    Hello everyone from North Pole North where a sharp frost has frozen the fresh snow overnight so that everything is crunchy. Schools are still open! But the footpaths are pretty lethal. Will be better later in the day once the council path plows have been at it.

    Frosty here too in Lothian - and the pavements in the peripheral areas of this town not de-iced (we did put road salt down outside our place). We have a supply of ice grips, crampon-like thingies, etc. for our boots. But bright sun and a thaw beginning.
    Its -2 here at the moment and will only get to +2 during the day. Then its supposed to turn to rain - that might start melting it a bit if it can stay above freezing
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,086

    Can you imagine being a Reform voter, so consistently wrong about everything?

    It's not hard to imagine being wrong about lots of things. Most of us are. Some of us are even aware of it.

    I would have had several things in the wrong order for these questions. I would have put pensions, debt interest and social care higher. I thought education, working age benefits and transport were lower.

    It's interesting how that maps against my views that I think Britain doesn't prioritise education or transport infrastructure, that pension and social care spending is a huge problem, and that concerns over working age benefits are overdone.

    Now, which way is the causality?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,379

    AnneJGP said:

    Cookie said:

    A lot of despair around this morning. All out in 33 overs seems suboptimal but we were always told it was giing to be a wicked pitch for fast bowlers.

    Let's hope the opposition is all out in 32 overs.
    Maybe less...
    I nearly added that but didn't want to start the discussion over less/fewer.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,043
    Shame there’s no Nasser, Athers & co for this series. It doesn’t feel legit without them.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,478
    isam said:

    Shame there’s no Nasser, Athers & co for this series. It doesn’t feel legit without them.

    Could be worse, I’ve got the bloody Aussie commentary to listen to at the moment.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,353
    nico67 said:

    The price cap is going up in January, that's not going to help the government's popularity.

    It’s £3 a year increase or 0.2% . I doubt we’ll see rioting in the streets .
    All the chatter was about it coming down
  • isamisam Posts: 43,043
    Sandpit said:

    isam said:

    Shame there’s no Nasser, Athers & co for this series. It doesn’t feel legit without them.

    Could be worse, I’ve got the bloody Aussie commentary to listen to at the moment.
    I think I’d prefer that. Or at least like to have the option. I love Mark Waugh, although he’s more of a Big Bash man.

    Not to say TNT is bad, but when you know the comms well it’s like watching it with friends. Cooky’s on now at least
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,353

    Sandpit said:

    Another £17.43bn borrowed last month.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20508068jno

    That's more than a Tory black hole a month....
    Judging by how quiet the roads were this morning, don't think barely anyone works Fridays any more...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,447
    Fascinating data. Presumably Reform and Conservative supporters underestimate the amount spent on pensioners because they're mostly pensioners themselves.

    To @OnlyLivingBoy point, it looks like Lib Dems are right most often, but not always.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,414

    Can you imagine being a Reform voter, so consistently wrong about everything?

    It's not hard to imagine being wrong about lots of things. Most of us are. Some of us are even aware of it.

    I would have had several things in the wrong order for these questions. I would have put pensions, debt interest and social care higher. I thought education, working age benefits and transport were lower.

    It's interesting how that maps against my views that I think Britain doesn't prioritise education or transport infrastructure, that pension and social care spending is a huge problem, and that concerns over working age benefits are overdone.

    Now, which way is the causality?
    I think it will be very interesting as people start to be exposed to more Reform policies. At the moment supporting Reform is an emotional reaction - to a lack of opportunities, to changes to your community, to a general bombardment of largely lies from the hard right media.

    A few willing souls have gone out doing voxpops with Reform voters, asking them to detail their issues, and then listing the actual Reform policies. Which run contrary to their issues with the exception of "there's too many foreigners" which the hard right media project as the summary of all the other problems.

    The challenge for Reform is going to be asking people to vote against their own best interest. "I am poor, Reform will make me poorer but cutting welfare and council funding and the health service, but on the other hand I like that Nigel Farage and worry about all these muslim rapists I've been hearing about"

    Some will, some won't. Its a fascinating social experiment! Can Reform replicate the success of the GOPDAP in getting poor people in rural areas to make themselves poorer?
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,977
    edited 8:57AM

    Can you imagine being a Reform voter, so consistently wrong about everything?

    It's not hard to imagine being wrong about lots of things. Most of us are. Some of us are even aware of it.

    I would have had several things in the wrong order for these questions. I would have put pensions, debt interest and social care higher. I thought education, working age benefits and transport were lower.

    It's interesting how that maps against my views that I think Britain doesn't prioritise education or transport infrastructure, that pension and social care spending is a huge problem, and that concerns over working age benefits are overdone.

    Now, which way is the causality?
    I think we overestimate how rational both ourselves and other people are. We aren't computers, and very frequently group loyalty and personal prestige trump objective reality when making decisions. That's the way we've evolved, and it takes a combination of effort, will and training to overcome our inherent tendency to build mental models that don't align well with reality.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,353
    Pulpstar said:

    We're 9 runs ahead for the same fall of wicket.

    39 now.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,043
    ❗ Conservative GAIN from Green

    Hale (Trafford) council by-election result:

    CON: 46.5% (+9.7)
    GRN: 38.1% (-9.6)
    REF: 8.1% (+8.1)
    LAB: 4.2% (-7.6)
    LDEM: 3.1% (-0.6)

    +/- 2024

    andrewteale.me.uk/previews


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1991767290568683739?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • isamisam Posts: 43,043
    Commentary ahead of the pictures when the 5th Aussie wicket fell
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,353
    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,447

    Can you imagine being a Reform voter, so consistently wrong about everything?

    It's not hard to imagine being wrong about lots of things. Most of us are. Some of us are even aware of it.

    I would have had several things in the wrong order for these questions. I would have put pensions, debt interest and social care higher. I thought education, working age benefits and transport were lower.

    It's interesting how that maps against my views that I think Britain doesn't prioritise education or transport infrastructure, that pension and social care spending is a huge problem, and that concerns over working age benefits are overdone.

    Now, which way is the causality?
    I think it will be very interesting as people start to be exposed to more Reform policies. At the moment supporting Reform is an emotional reaction - to a lack of opportunities, to changes to your community, to a general bombardment of largely lies from the hard right media.

    A few willing souls have gone out doing voxpops with Reform voters, asking them to detail their issues, and then listing the actual Reform policies. Which run contrary to their issues with the exception of "there's too many foreigners" which the hard right media project as the summary of all the other problems.

    The challenge for Reform is going to be asking people to vote against their own best interest. "I am poor, Reform will make me poorer but cutting welfare and council funding and the health service, but on the other hand I like that Nigel Farage and worry about all these muslim rapists I've been hearing about"

    Some will, some won't. Its a fascinating social experiment! Can Reform replicate the success of the GOPDAP in getting poor people in rural areas to make themselves poorer?
    Nigel Farage and others succeeded in getting people to vote for making themselves poorer with Brexit, so I don't see why not.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,977
    edited 9:08AM

    Can you imagine being a Reform voter, so consistently wrong about everything?

    It's not hard to imagine being wrong about lots of things. Most of us are. Some of us are even aware of it.

    I would have had several things in the wrong order for these questions. I would have put pensions, debt interest and social care higher. I thought education, working age benefits and transport were lower.

    It's interesting how that maps against my views that I think Britain doesn't prioritise education or transport infrastructure, that pension and social care spending is a huge problem, and that concerns over working age benefits are overdone.

    Now, which way is the causality?
    I think it will be very interesting as people start to be exposed to more Reform policies. At the moment supporting Reform is an emotional reaction - to a lack of opportunities, to changes to your community, to a general bombardment of largely lies from the hard right media.

    A few willing souls have gone out doing voxpops with Reform voters, asking them to detail their issues, and then listing the actual Reform policies. Which run contrary to their issues with the exception of "there's too many foreigners" which the hard right media project as the summary of all the other problems.

    The challenge for Reform is going to be asking people to vote against their own best interest. "I am poor, Reform will make me poorer but cutting welfare and council funding and the health service, but on the other hand I like that Nigel Farage and worry about all these muslim rapists I've been hearing about"

    Some will, some won't. Its a fascinating social experiment! Can Reform replicate the success of the GOPDAP in getting poor people in rural areas to make themselves poorer?
    I don't disagree, but I would make the point that it isn't necessarily obvious what is in one's best interest. For example, a high earner might vote for higher taxes, which seems contrary to their best interest. But perhaps they are taking the longer view and judging that their ultimate best interest is the stable democracy that government spending supports. On the other hand, a poorer person might rationally vote for cuts that they think will improve their relative status in society even if they themselves are negatively affected.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,353
    If only our economy was as competitive as our various sports teams right now lol.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,587
    Morning all :)

    No significant surprises in that polling. It all plays to the misconceptions (or prejudices if you prefer) you would expect. £14 billion on overseas aide isn't a small number but the "big ticket" items are what you'd expect with debt interest an eyewatering £100 billion plus.

    The problem is suggesting real term reductions in any of this is going to be a hard political sell - the NHS is venerated, no one is going to voluntarily want to see their benefits reduced (including and especially pensioners). The debt interest isn't ours to control unless we decide to default and if anything spending on defence is going to keep growing.

    You could, I suppose, argue the main candidate for long term reduction is education but while we could see spending on primary and eventually secondary education fall as numbers decline, reskilling or upskilling the working population isn't free or even cheap but may be deemed important to promote economic growth on the basis a better skilled workforce is more productive.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,843
    83-6
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,608
    Very interesting data.

    And structurally, the amounts spent on pensions and healthcare are only going to increase in real terms as the population ages.

    We can do a few things to reduce the speed of that increase - abolishing the triple lock, making the NHS more efficient - but it's not conceivable that spending can be cut.

    Even proposals on the right (introducing an insurance element of the NHS, or partial privatisation) is fundamentally shifting from tax to mandatory insurance premiums. Which I'd argue are fungible for most people.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,478
    Pulpstar said:

    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

    It appears that a couple of million working-age people have suddenly become long-term sick since the pandemic.

    Didn’t read much about that in the report.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,598
    edited 9:12AM
    Pulpstar said:

    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

    Easy. Universal Credit (see the small print on the Yougov image). The Speenhamland System de nos jours, subsidising employers (on one perspective). Lots of the money goes to people in work. Who are therefore not unemployed, at least statistically (they may be underemployed or on zero hours, but ...).

    (And some goes to people who are not formally unemployed, because they can't work, presumably, so don't show up on the unemployment stats. Edit: 'disabled' in the small print again.)

    So only some of it goes to the true unemployed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,478
    edited 9:12AM
    Ooh, 83/6

    This gets interesting.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,353
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

    It appears that a couple of million working-age people have suddenly become long-term sick since the pandemic.

    Didn’t read much about that in the report.
    I'd eliminate sickness benefit for anxiety & depression.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,057
    AnneJGP said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
    Read the report. Sandpit’s characterisation of it is inaccurate.
    The whole purpose of these reports should be to look at what were good decisions, what with hindsight were bad decisions, what would have been done differently today, what information is important, what information was misleading, how did the characteristics of this particular disease differ from what had been planned for, what processes could be improved, what can government do to be better prepared for the next pandemic than the last one…

    There’s almost none of that in the report.
    Few people are interested in information. They're looking for people to blame.
    Sandpit being an example. He just mischaracterises the report to fit his pre-existing narrative rather than looking at the information within it.

    For example, he suggests the reports says, "civil servants all wonderful". The obvious counter-example is Chris Whitty, who must have had an uncomfortable time reading the report (e.g. para. 3.104).
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,086
    Combine that story with the story about the Dutch chipmaker and you have a picture of how Europe is at the mercy of both the US and China. And compared to those two, Russia should be easy, but Europe isn't really dealing with the war with Russia with much in the way of decisiveness and strength.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,057
    FF43 said:

    Fascinating data. Presumably Reform and Conservative supporters underestimate the amount spent on pensioners because they're mostly pensioners themselves.

    To @OnlyLivingBoy point, it looks like Lib Dems are right most often, but not always.

    Everyone thinks the government spends more than it does on things they don't think the government should be spending so much on.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,521
    Eabhal said:

    The COVID-19 inquiry is far too interested in the minutiae. The fact that The resilience and preparedness of the United Kingdom report mentions underlying health conditions like obesity only once in 200 pages is ridiculous. Should have take up at least 50% of that report given how important they were for determining whether someone ended up in hospital.

    It's not that the most important lessons won't be learned - they aren't even being taught.

    Indeed.

    That the government made no attempt to encourage people to improve their health and fitness during covid was reprehensible.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,210
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

    It appears that a couple of million working-age people have suddenly become long-term sick since the pandemic.

    Didn’t read much about that in the report.
    I'd eliminate sickness benefit for anxiety & depression.
    They can be as crippling as any physical illness and trying to get mental illness treated on the NHS is nigh on impossible.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,057

    Hello everyone from North Pole North where a sharp frost has frozen the fresh snow overnight so that everything is crunchy. Schools are still open! But the footpaths are pretty lethal. Will be better later in the day once the council path plows have been at it.

    Meanwhile I can hear parakeets flying by in tropical....

    ....west London.
    How very odd. Everyone knows parakeets are native to north London.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,950

    Combine that story with the story about the Dutch chipmaker and you have a picture of how Europe is at the mercy of both the US and China. And compared to those two, Russia should be easy, but Europe isn't really dealing with the war with Russia with much in the way of decisiveness and strength.
    I find it hard to understand the timidity of European leaders (among which, I include my own country’s). When reading about the 1930’s, I used to ask myself “how could they be so cowardly and stupid?” The question still applies.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,521
    It seems that people think that the government spends money on 'people like them' and things they personally oppose.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,086
    Pulpstar said:

    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

    Is it that Britain is subsidising employment because housing is ruinously expensive?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,447
    Translation of the so called Ukraine peace plan. Interesting for what Russia doesn't care about - eg Ukraine joining the EU; the complete disregard for NATO implied for the USA as well as Russia; and the desire that the USA should be seen to benefit from Russia's aggression.


    https://bsky.app/profile/chriso-wiki.bsky.social/post/3m644etznxa2k
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,529
    eek said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
    What restrictions, though ?

    Face masks, for example, greatly lower the transmission rate for any respiratory virus.

    Compared with even the shortest lockdown, they are a minor imposition - and in some countries just ordinary practice.

    Better ventilation has similar health benefits for relatively minor costs.

    The other lesson which ought to be learned was the benefit of cheap rapid tests for infection, once developed.

    We wasted tens of billions on PCR 'gold standard' testing which was almost completely ineffective in changing outcomes.
    Cheap self-administered tests, widely adopted, could completely avoid the need for any lockdown in the future (and could have been far better used earlier in this pandemic).

    I haven't read the report, but if it hasn't adopted a cost/benefit analysis as its fundamental framework, then it is a waste of time.
    (Apart from the necessary conformation of what a crap PM was Boris - though we didn't need to spend £200m to know that.)
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,521
    It would be interesting to see the first (1-11) chart by political party support.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,950

    Can you imagine being a Reform voter, so consistently wrong about everything?

    It's not hard to imagine being wrong about lots of things. Most of us are. Some of us are even aware of it.

    I would have had several things in the wrong order for these questions. I would have put pensions, debt interest and social care higher. I thought education, working age benefits and transport were lower.

    It's interesting how that maps against my views that I think Britain doesn't prioritise education or transport infrastructure, that pension and social care spending is a huge problem, and that concerns over working age benefits are overdone.

    Now, which way is the causality?
    I think it will be very interesting as people start to be exposed to more Reform policies. At the moment supporting Reform is an emotional reaction - to a lack of opportunities, to changes to your community, to a general bombardment of largely lies from the hard right media.

    A few willing souls have gone out doing voxpops with Reform voters, asking them to detail their issues, and then listing the actual Reform policies. Which run contrary to their issues with the exception of "there's too many foreigners" which the hard right media project as the summary of all the other problems.

    The challenge for Reform is going to be asking people to vote against their own best interest. "I am poor, Reform will make me poorer but cutting welfare and council funding and the health service, but on the other hand I like that Nigel Farage and worry about all these muslim rapists I've been hearing about"

    Some will, some won't. Its a fascinating social experiment! Can Reform replicate the success of the GOPDAP in getting poor people in rural areas to make themselves poorer?
    I don't disagree, but I would make the point that it isn't necessarily obvious what is in one's best interest. For example, a high earner might vote for higher taxes, which seems contrary to their best interest. But perhaps they are taking the longer view and judging that their ultimate best interest is the stable democracy that government spending supports. On the other hand, a poorer person might rationally vote for cuts that they think will improve their relative status in society even if they themselves are negatively affected.
    People are not purely motivated by economic self-interest, and they never have been.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,608
    Ratters said:

    Very interesting data.

    And structurally, the amounts spent on pensions and healthcare are only going to increase in real terms as the population ages.

    We can do a few things to reduce the speed of that increase - abolishing the triple lock, making the NHS more efficient - but it's not conceivable that spending can be cut.

    Even proposals on the right (introducing an insurance element of the NHS, or partial privatisation) is fundamentally shifting from tax to mandatory insurance premiums. Which I'd argue are fungible for most people.

    Extending this further, looking at the top five:

    1. Healthcare: spending will only increase over time in real terms whether public or privately. All we can do is slow the speed or increase.

    2. Working age benefits. I'd be interested to see a breakdown of this spending. I expect it's where the Tories/Reform will ultimately cut from, but easier said than done.

    3. Pensions. As above, rising pension age and scrapping triple lock only slow the speed of increase. Means testing arguably breaks a long-standing social contact.

    4. Education. I'm amazed at how efficient many schools are already. Reduced birth rate may reduce costs slightly in long-term but marginal.

    5. Debt interest. Not in our control: need to cut elsewhere or raise taxes to reduce this.

    6. Defence spending: will be increasing over time.

    ... And that's before we get to the woefully underfunded courts and social care.

    Who would want to be in government?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,353
    edited 9:20AM

    Pulpstar said:

    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

    Is it that Britain is subsidising employment because housing is ruinously expensive?
    I don't see the point (In the round) of landlord housing benefit either. The same number of properties get to be "cleared" by the same number of people regardless of gov't tax or subsidy.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,977
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

    It appears that a couple of million working-age people have suddenly become long-term sick since the pandemic.

    Didn’t read much about that in the report.
    I'd eliminate sickness benefit for anxiety & depression.
    It seems unreasonable to distinguish between a broken leg and a broken brain, but perhaps more rigour is required in diagnosing the latter.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,950
    FF43 said:

    Translation of the so called Ukraine peace plan. Interesting for what Russia doesn't care about - eg Ukraine joining the EU; the complete disregard for NATO implied for the USA as well as Russia; and the desire that the USA should be seen to benefit from Russia's aggression.


    https://bsky.app/profile/chriso-wiki.bsky.social/post/3m644etznxa2k

    Point 1, reaffirming Ukraine’s sovereignty, is presumably satirical.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,605
    Notable that voters overestimate spending on debt interest which suggests they are open to more measures to reduce debt. They also overestimate spending on public order and safety which suggests they are open to more being spent on prisons and the police.

    Voters underestimate the amount spent on pensioners though which suggests the pensioner vote is still reluctant to face cuts to its pensions and benefits.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,876

    Off topic on this bleakest of ashes mornings. FFS England. It really is the hope that kills you.

    And, worse, it kills you like it's the last 10 minutes of a vampire movie.....
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,379
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,521
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
    What restrictions, though ?

    Face masks, for example, greatly lower the transmission rate for any respiratory virus.

    Compared with even the shortest lockdown, they are a minor imposition - and in some countries just ordinary practice.

    Better ventilation has similar health benefits for relatively minor costs.

    The other lesson which ought to be learned was the benefit of cheap rapid tests for infection, once developed.

    We wasted tens of billions on PCR 'gold standard' testing which was almost completely ineffective in changing outcomes.
    Cheap self-administered tests, widely adopted, could completely avoid the need for any lockdown in the future (and could have been far better used earlier in this pandemic).

    I haven't read the report, but if it hasn't adopted a cost/benefit analysis as its fundamental framework, then it is a waste of time.
    (Apart from the necessary conformation of what a crap PM was Boris - though we didn't need to spend £200m to know that.)
    If there's a choice between plentiful 'cheap and cheerful' and small amounts of 'gold standard, world beating' the UK government will always prefer the latter.

    The lack of emphasis on ventilation was another mystery.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,529

    Hello everyone from North Pole North where a sharp frost has frozen the fresh snow overnight so that everything is crunchy. Schools are still open! But the footpaths are pretty lethal. Will be better later in the day once the council path plows have been at it.

    I was surprised by a very large patch of ice on the road yesterday morning.
    Fortunately I was driving in the expectation of being surprised.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,605
    Ratters said:

    Very interesting data.

    And structurally, the amounts spent on pensions and healthcare are only going to increase in real terms as the population ages.

    We can do a few things to reduce the speed of that increase - abolishing the triple lock, making the NHS more efficient - but it's not conceivable that spending can be cut.

    Even proposals on the right (introducing an insurance element of the NHS, or partial privatisation) is fundamentally shifting from tax to mandatory insurance premiums. Which I'd argue are fungible for most people.

    Means test the triple lock and move to an insurance based healthcare system for most employees
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,447
    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Translation of the so called Ukraine peace plan. Interesting for what Russia doesn't care about - eg Ukraine joining the EU; the complete disregard for NATO implied for the USA as well as Russia; and the desire that the USA should be seen to benefit from Russia's aggression.


    https://bsky.app/profile/chriso-wiki.bsky.social/post/3m644etznxa2k

    Point 1, reaffirming Ukraine’s sovereignty, is presumably satirical.
    Point 3: "Russia will not invade neighbouring countries" You would hope that's a given and not something to be negotiated.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,915
    The reality is that we have borrowed £116.8bn in 7 months, more than any other year on record other than the Covid inflicted year of 2020. That is, if I have my zeros in the right place, £16,685 for every man, woman and child in the country assuming there are roughly 70m of us. This is despite record tax receipts on the back of the tax increases in the last budget. Our state is spending completely and utterly unsustainable sums of money to pay us what we somehow believe we are entitled to.

    Reality on government spending makes England's batting look dull and predictable.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,605
    Pulpstar said:

    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

    PIP etc Labour MPs refused to make cuts and reforms to
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,843
    I have a bit of hesitation about the basis of the article here. I have a fairly long, if vague and unreliable, political memory. If you go back quite a time (20-50 years) there was much less interest than now on how much was spent on what, and in what proportions.

    Rational voting is not about depth of accounting knowledge, or knowing what building a motorway costs compared with overseas aid etc.

    It lies firstly in the majority understanding that our society, post WWII and only now breaking down, depends OTOH on wealth creation and OTOH on having a population with health, education, pensions and safety nets, employability, rule of law, housing and transport. This naturally leads to the centrism often called social democracy.

    We vote, in totality, for the government which seems able to do this best, and also with the bias of self interest in mind. How this breaks down in accounting terms is mostly a matter for them not us.

    The current system breakdown is based neither on public ignorance nor a big change in the desire for post WWII social democrat continuity; it is based on a lack of belief (including about Reform) that any of them are very good at doing this, and a lack of belief that there is a better system than the prevailing consensus.

    We continue, rationally, not to vote for truly alternative leftism, nor for small state libertarians.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,950

    Sean_F said:

    Combine that story with the story about the Dutch chipmaker and you have a picture of how Europe is at the mercy of both the US and China. And compared to those two, Russia should be easy, but Europe isn't really dealing with the war with Russia with much in the way of decisiveness and strength.
    I find it hard to understand the timidity of European leaders (among which, I include my own country’s). When reading about the 1930’s, I used to ask myself “how could they be so cowardly and stupid?” The question still applies.
    The new Irish foreign and defence minister said yesterday, "Ireland has always stood resolutely with Ukraine, and that certainly won't change."

    Ireland is resolutely neutral and has refused to provide any lethal equipment to Ukraine. It could afford to spend a lot of money paying for Ukraine to manufacture its own weapons, or buying them from the Americans for Ukraine, but its notions of neutrality are more important than its resolve to help defend a fellow European country from Imperial aggression.

    The dishonesty, naivety and complacency in Ireland's position on Ukraine is maddening.
    After listening to members of the Irish political establishment preening themselves over their neutrality, I feel like I need a shower.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,043

    Can you imagine being a Reform voter, so consistently wrong about everything?

    It's not hard to imagine being wrong about lots of things. Most of us are. Some of us are even aware of it.

    I would have had several things in the wrong order for these questions. I would have put pensions, debt interest and social care higher. I thought education, working age benefits and transport were lower.

    It's interesting how that maps against my views that I think Britain doesn't prioritise education or transport infrastructure, that pension and social care spending is a huge problem, and that concerns over working age benefits are overdone.

    Now, which way is the causality?
    I think it will be very interesting as people start to be exposed to more Reform policies. At the moment supporting Reform is an emotional reaction - to a lack of opportunities, to changes to your community, to a general bombardment of largely lies from the hard right media.

    A few willing souls have gone out doing voxpops with Reform voters, asking them to detail their issues, and then listing the actual Reform policies. Which run contrary to their issues with the exception of "there's too many foreigners" which the hard right media project as the summary of all the other problems.

    The challenge for Reform is going to be asking people to vote against their own best interest. "I am poor, Reform will make me poorer but cutting welfare and council funding and the health service, but on the other hand I like that Nigel Farage and worry about all these muslim rapists I've been hearing about"

    Some will, some won't. Its a fascinating social experiment! Can Reform replicate the success of the GOPDAP in getting poor people in rural areas to make themselves poorer?
    I don't disagree, but I would make the point that it isn't necessarily obvious what is in one's best interest. For example, a high earner might vote for higher taxes, which seems contrary to their best interest. But perhaps they are taking the longer view and judging that their ultimate best interest is the stable democracy that government spending supports. On the other hand, a poorer person might rationally vote for cuts that they think will improve their relative status in society even if they themselves are negatively affected.
    The ‘voting to make themselves poorer’ dig misses every time. As @Sean_F says, people don’t vote for their economic self interest, otherwise Labour wouldn’t dominate the rich vote.

    If a party policy was sold as ‘we’ll cut immigration to zero but you’re going to be a tenner a week worse off’ I think it would be both wildly popular and people voting to make themselves poorer
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,529

    Fascinating stuff in the Epstein emails about the Epstein Bannon Farage axis.
    US funding of the new right across Europe is a much underreported story.
    It's not entirely clear whether the Epstein connection is largely a result of the Epstein/Bannon connection, or a more direct one.

    Epstein was, of course, heavily involved in Russian money laundering.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,977
    edited 9:33AM
    Sean_F said:

    Combine that story with the story about the Dutch chipmaker and you have a picture of how Europe is at the mercy of both the US and China. And compared to those two, Russia should be easy, but Europe isn't really dealing with the war with Russia with much in the way of decisiveness and strength.
    I find it hard to understand the timidity of European leaders (among which, I include my own country’s). When reading about the 1930’s, I used to ask myself “how could they be so cowardly and stupid?” The question still applies.
    I'd say European leaders have, on the whole, done a pretty good job over my 60-year lifetime. Democracy has spread throughout most of the continent, we still have some of the best standards of living in the world, and very few of us have had to fight or die in wars.

    Edit: Ah, I just read the tweet that started this thread. I agree, that is appaling.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,086
    edited 9:29AM
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

    Is it that Britain is subsidising employment because housing is ruinously expensive?
    I don't see the point (In the round) of landlord housing benefit either. The same number of properties get to be "cleared" by the same number of people regardless of gov't tax or subsidy.
    If the government had used the money spent on housing benefit to build houses imagine where we'd be now.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,816

    Eabhal said:

    The COVID-19 inquiry is far too interested in the minutiae. The fact that The resilience and preparedness of the United Kingdom report mentions underlying health conditions like obesity only once in 200 pages is ridiculous. Should have take up at least 50% of that report given how important they were for determining whether someone ended up in hospital.

    It's not that the most important lessons won't be learned - they aren't even being taught.

    Indeed.

    That the government made no attempt to encourage people to improve their health and fitness during covid was reprehensible.
    They missed a trick with the NHS pan-banging cult behaviour where they should have mandated ten minutes of callisthenics for everyone prior to the noisy worship. Would have got everyone active and created a glorious unified religion of fitness and health.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,478
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Translation of the so called Ukraine peace plan. Interesting for what Russia doesn't care about - eg Ukraine joining the EU; the complete disregard for NATO implied for the USA as well as Russia; and the desire that the USA should be seen to benefit from Russia's aggression.


    https://bsky.app/profile/chriso-wiki.bsky.social/post/3m644etznxa2k

    Point 1, reaffirming Ukraine’s sovereignty, is presumably satirical.
    Point 3: "Russia will not invade neighbouring countries" You would hope that's a given and not something to be negotiated.
    Except that they’ve agreed to that several times before, and broken the agreements.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,541
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,605
    FF43 said:

    Fascinating data. Presumably Reform and Conservative supporters underestimate the amount spent on pensioners because they're mostly pensioners themselves.

    To @OnlyLivingBoy point, it looks like Lib Dems are right most often, but not always.

    On current polls the median Reform voter is about 45
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,521
    DavidL said:

    The reality is that we have borrowed £116.8bn in 7 months, more than any other year on record other than the Covid inflicted year of 2020. That is, if I have my zeros in the right place, £16,685 for every man, woman and child in the country assuming there are roughly 70m of us. This is despite record tax receipts on the back of the tax increases in the last budget. Our state is spending completely and utterly unsustainable sums of money to pay us what we somehow believe we are entitled to.

    Reality on government spending makes England's batting look dull and predictable.

    You're out by one zero I think.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,950

    Sean_F said:

    Combine that story with the story about the Dutch chipmaker and you have a picture of how Europe is at the mercy of both the US and China. And compared to those two, Russia should be easy, but Europe isn't really dealing with the war with Russia with much in the way of decisiveness and strength.
    I find it hard to understand the timidity of European leaders (among which, I include my own country’s). When reading about the 1930’s, I used to ask myself “how could they be so cowardly and stupid?” The question still applies.
    I'd say European leaders have, on the whole, done a pretty good job over my 60-year lifetime. Democracy has spread throughout most of the continent, we still have some of the best standards of living in the world, and very few of us have had to fight or die in wars.
    But they have largely forgotten that most of us sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand guard on the walls.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,478

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think our health spending is more in less in line internationally, it's working age benefits that are completely out of whack when you look at comparable nations I think. How on earth have they got to £160 Bn with a ~ 5% unemployment rate ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

    Is it that Britain is subsidising employment because housing is ruinously expensive?
    I don't see the point (In the round) of landlord housing benefit either. The same number of properties get to be "cleared" by the same number of people regardless of gov't tax or subsidy.
    If the government had used the money spent on housing benefit to build houses imagine where we'd be now.
    Except that the government would have built £100k houses for £500k each, and spent another £10k each on telling the media how awesome the project was.
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