At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
What makes you think it was done for a giggle and not a horrible mistake as can happen in the fog of war, especially when facing a hideous death cult.
Because they were waving white shirts to demonstrate their surrender and had used food to write on their bodies messages of "don't shoot".
God only knows what other atrocities the IDF have perpetrated in Gaza given their exclusion of foreign journalists from the region and their propensity to murder native reporters. We get glimpses of their barbarism when events such as killings of medics are accidenally revealed by discovered phone footage and from incidents such as the one you mention, but this is likely to be just the tip of the iceberg. The state of Israel clearly regards the Palestinians as little more than vermin, much as the apartheid regime in South Africa regarded the black population of that country.
Do you think, in hindsight, Hamas's attack on October 7th 2023 was a good idea, or a bad idea?
Obviously a bad idea, and an evil one. And not just in hindsight. Why do you ask?
Richard Tice in a speech just now welcomes Mahmood talking Reform language
When Tice is on your side just how many in labour will recoil in horror ?
The thing Mahmood is probably missing is why vote for an imitation of the real thing when you can just vote Reform
There is no election to vote in at the moment. The Mahmood plan is to reduce the salience of the issue by 2029. If she is allowed to implement her ideas I suspect it would work.
That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
2p on income tax gives this Government money to spend. Pick a few projects, get spades in the ground and people will appreciate it and provided their area improves a bit vote for the party in power...
Yes it would but it won’t happen as she won’t get it past her backbenchers and the highly influential Lucy Powell has refused to accept it too.
What exactly would the backbenchers do? Force an election where they lose their seats?
Richard Tice in a speech just now welcomes Mahmood talking Reform language
When Tice is on your side just how many in labour will recoil in horror ?
The thing Mahmood is probably missing is why vote for an imitation of the real thing when you can just vote Reform
Because there's no vote until 2029 and if Labour haven't resolved the boats crisis by then they're out of power for a generation. Mahmood seems to be the only Labour MP who has figured this out.
Richard Tice in a speech just now welcomes Mahmood talking Reform language
When Tice is on your side just how many in labour will recoil in horror ?
The thing Mahmood is probably missing is why vote for an imitation of the real thing when you can just vote Reform
That is a good shout from Mahmood in this game of Asylum Seeker, Performative Cruelty Edition, Top Trumps. Robert Jenrick is currently pondering his next move.
That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
2p on income tax gives this Government money to spend. Pick a few projects, get spades in the ground and people will appreciate it and provided their area improves a bit vote for the party in power...
Yes it would but it won’t happen as she won’t get it past her backbenchers and the highly influential Lucy Powell has refused to accept it too.
What exactly would the backbenchers do? Force an election where they lose their seats?
Fortunately we know this government has a backbone made of steel when it comes to facing down their backbenches.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
What makes you think it was done for a giggle and not a horrible mistake as can happen in the fog of war, especially when facing a hideous death cult.
Because they were waving white shirts to demonstrate their surrender and had used food to write on their bodies messages of "don't shoot".
God only knows what other atrocities the IDF have perpetrated in Gaza given their exclusion of foreign journalists from the region and their propensity to murder native reporters. We get glimpses of their barbarism when events such as killings of medics are accidenally revealed by discovered phone footage and from incidents such as the one you mention, but this is likely to be just the tip of the iceberg. The state of Israel clearly regards the Palestinians as little more than vermin, much as the apartheid regime in South Africa regarded the black population of that country.
Richard Tice in a speech just now welcomes Mahmood talking Reform language
When Tice is on your side just how many in labour will recoil in horror ?
The thing Mahmood is probably missing is why vote for an imitation of the real thing when you can just vote Reform
Because there's no vote until 2029 and if Labour haven't resolved the boats crisis by then they're out of power for a generation. Mahmood seems to be the only Labour MP who has figured this out.
With any luck she'll be the next Labour leader and prime minister.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observed.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observed.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
So it was a war zone.
What do you expect in war?
Death toll considerably lower though. Well done Israel.
A LABOUR Home Office Minister confirms that refugees will have their jewellery confiscated on arrival in the UK.
I wonder whether there have been any earlier precedents for removing jewellery from refugees...
Performative shite for the Reform curious voter. All that pandering to the Farage world view seems to have gone really well so far, let’s double down.
Speaking as a Reform voter - I don't get it either.
The correct solution to unwanted people rocking up on these shores is to return them to where they came from, or failing that somewhere safe, cheap and fairly unappealing (e.g. Rwanda!).
I'm not interested in mildly performative cruelty to them. I've nothing against them, have no wish to be cruel to them - it's just that the country is full and we have no room for more people.
If it's intended as a deterrent, it's not a very good one, not least because it just means people won't bring their jewellery with them.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
It's somewhat fortunate for Gaza that modern air forces no longer have the capability to dump thousands of tons of bombs into a city in one night, I'm sure the IAF would have done that if they could.
It will anger the hand-wringing sandal wearers, and I can't say I like it either. However the hand-wringing sandal wearers need to wise up that unless Mahmood gets a grip then the alternative is a Farage-Jenrick tag team that will have no qualms in exacting performative cruelty on all sorts people they don't like including sandal wearers.
On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".
And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.
After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.
There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.
There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...
It is time to shit or get off the toilet.
Do what you think needs to be done to balance the budget, or you don't deserve to be in office.
He doesn't know how. Then again, neither do the Tories. We need to drive growth to generate tax revenues. But collectively seem to think that making people have less money in their pocket - cuts and tax rises - will make that happen.
I blame the Treasury. Liz Truss was right as much as she was bonkers - she turned her guns on the Treasury. She just didn't go far enough.
Truss cut tax without cutting spending which with the size of the deficit the markets wouldn't have
I have rewatched the end of Truss over the weekend when mulling over the state of Starmer.
Fascinating to watch the winding up of the fracking debate. The minister proudly boasts about how the Conservatives had massively developed renewable energy. Because its right for Britain and puts us in a good place for the future.
Whatever happened to the Conservative Party? Even at its zenith of loopyness it was still better grounded in reality than Badenoch's mob.
One thing occurs. When Thatcher and Howe took over in 1979 there was a budget deficit and high inflation. They choose to try to squeeze inflation out of the system which eventually led to a strong upturn in the economy, although not without an awful lot of pain en route. The deficit was definitely a BAD thing and should be avoided.
Now we have been living with deficits for decades and arguably it has become normalised. In some ways its the same a the availability of cheap credit to all of us. Want that new car? Credit makes it happen. Want that new phone? Stick it on your credit card. Etc etc.
Have our politicians just come to accept that deficits don't really matter? Is that why no-one is ever serious about getting rid of them?
Deficits don't matter to current politicians because it is a problem for future politicians.
Deficits don’t matter if the economy is growing - they do when that growth stops
Or if interest rates go from 0.5% to 5%, adding an order of magnitude to the planned debt servicing cost.
That's a big concern certainly, but don't forget that a big increase in debt service costs is almost certainly caused by a big increase in inflation, either actual or anticipated, which will reduce the total value of the debt, as opposed to the interest payments, in real terms.
In theory the effects should equal out, though in practice, you will probably lose out overall for two reasons. Firstly, markets are risk-averse, and they tend to demand higher premiums the higher inflation is.
And, second, the government, being a government, will piss away the gains from a reduction in the total debt on crap like climate aid or bungs to its trade unionist supporters, then hit the struggling private sector for the burden of higher interest rates over time.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Richard Tice in a speech just now welcomes Mahmood talking Reform language
When Tice is on your side just how many in labour will recoil in horror ?
The thing Mahmood is probably missing is why vote for an imitation of the real thing when you can just vote Reform
Because there's no vote until 2029 and if Labour haven't resolved the boats crisis by then they're out of power for a generation. Mahmood seems to be the only Labour MP who has figured this out.
With any luck she'll be the next Labour leader and prime minister.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observed.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
It will anger the hand-wringing sandal wearers, and I can't say I like it either. However the hand-wringing sandal wearers need to wise up that unless Mahmood gets a grip then the alternative is a Farage-Jenrick tag team that will have no qualms in exacting performative cruelty on all sorts people they don't like including sandal wearers.
I don't think anyone wants cruelty.
Either allow people to be in the country, working, and contributing. Or deport them.
Those are the rational choices.
Letting people in, not deporting them, but being cruel to them, pleases nobody.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
There is a balancing act with the Labour left but it’s clear that taking action has broad general support. If they don’t get this right they’ve got no chance of recovering ground by the next GE.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observed.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
Yes. Horrific. War is horrific.
Do you think, in hindsight, German's attack on Poland in 1939, etc, etc.?
It will anger the hand-wringing sandal wearers, and I can't say I like it either. However the hand-wringing sandal wearers need to wise up that unless Mahmood gets a grip then the alternative is a Farage-Jenrick tag team that will have no qualms in exacting performative cruelty on all sorts people they don't like including sandal wearers.
I don't think anyone wants cruelty.
Either allow people to be in the country, working, and contributing. Or deport them.
Those are the rational choices.
Letting people in, not deporting them, but being cruel to them, pleases nobody.
Saying people with assets have to support themselves financially is not cruelty, it is normality.
That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
2p on income tax gives this Government money to spend. Pick a few projects, get spades in the ground and people will appreciate it and provided their area improves a bit vote for the party in power...
Yes it would but it won’t happen as she won’t get it past her backbenchers and the highly influential Lucy Powell has refused to accept it too.
What exactly would the backbenchers do? Force an election where they lose their seats?
All they need to do is what they did on the WFA and and the modest benefits package changes. Refuse to back it so Reeves folds. SKS wouldn’t make it a matter of confidence.
A LABOUR Home Office Minister confirms that refugees will have their jewellery confiscated on arrival in the UK.
I wonder whether there have been any earlier precedents for removing jewellery from refugees...
Performative shite for the Reform curious voter. All that pandering to the Farage world view seems to have gone really well so far, let’s double down.
Speaking as a Reform voter - I don't get it either.
The correct solution to unwanted people rocking up on these shores is to return them to where they came from, or failing that somewhere safe, cheap and fairly unappealing (e.g. Rwanda!).
I'm not interested in mildly performative cruelty to them. I've nothing against them, have no wish to be cruel to them - it's just that the country is full and we have no room for more people.
If it's intended as a deterrent, it's not a very good one, not least because it just means people won't bring their jewellery with them.
Exactly my point. Some people think performative cruelty performative. Others think it cruel. They are not necessarily the same people. So it doesn't work.
On the substance Mahmood's policy is a restatement of Priti Patel's. I would want to know why it would work this time but not the last time. Or else why this policy is needed.
It will anger the hand-wringing sandal wearers, and I can't say I like it either. However the hand-wringing sandal wearers need to wise up that unless Mahmood gets a grip then the alternative is a Farage-Jenrick tag team that will have no qualms in exacting performative cruelty on all sorts people they don't like including sandal wearers.
But it appears to be Labour themselves with their unerring ability to strike the wrong note who have lurched onto the jewellery thing. Is there much evidence of boat people being laden with gold and similar? Afaics it’s designed to further inflame the indigenes with visions of fighting age men festooned with sovvy rings and gold chains. All they had to say was that every effort would be made to assess the resources and assets of asylum seekers.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
It's somewhat fortunate for Gaza that modern air forces no longer have the capability to dump thousands of tons of bombs into a city in one night, I'm sure the IAF would have done that if they could.
Its somewhat incredible to think that the age of the huge heavy bomber fleets, dropping hundred or thousands of tonnes of bomb over a city only really lasted a few years - from say 1942 -1945. Hiroshima was the death knell for the heavy bomber.
It will anger the hand-wringing sandal wearers, and I can't say I like it either. However the hand-wringing sandal wearers need to wise up that unless Mahmood gets a grip then the alternative is a Farage-Jenrick tag team that will have no qualms in exacting performative cruelty on all sorts people they don't like including sandal wearers.
I don't think anyone wants cruelty.
Either allow people to be in the country, working, and contributing. Or deport them.
Those are the rational choices.
Letting people in, not deporting them, but being cruel to them, pleases nobody.
I agree, and my initial post highlighted alarm that a LABOUR government is thinking that extracting gold teeth from boat people is a good idea.
However I don't believe disciples of Farage or Jenrick would be so squeamish.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observed.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
Yes. Horrific. War is horrific.
Do you think, in hindsight, German's attack on Poland in 1939, etc, etc.?
Hitler could have got away with Poland if he had not then attacked Russia. A frosty border with the soviets but no war would have made it damn hard for the UK and USA (if they were up for it) to win the war.
Luckily for us, Hitler was mad (and as recent evidence has suggested) likely impotent, autistic and socially awkward.*
*Close followers of history may not have been surprised by these revelations.
It will anger the hand-wringing sandal wearers, and I can't say I like it either. However the hand-wringing sandal wearers need to wise up that unless Mahmood gets a grip then the alternative is a Farage-Jenrick tag team that will have no qualms in exacting performative cruelty on all sorts people they don't like including sandal wearers.
I don't think anyone wants cruelty.
Either allow people to be in the country, working, and contributing. Or deport them.
Those are the rational choices.
Letting people in, not deporting them, but being cruel to them, pleases nobody.
I agree, and my initial post highlighted alarm that a LABOUR government is thinking that extracting gold teeth from boat people is a good idea.
However I don't believe disciples of Farage or Jenrick would be so squeamish.
I do, I think disciples of Farage or Jenrick would seek to deport people, not take their possessions.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
It's somewhat fortunate for Gaza that modern air forces no longer have the capability to dump thousands of tons of bombs into a city in one night, I'm sure the IAF would have done that if they could.
Its somewhat incredible to think that the age of the huge heavy bomber fleets, dropping hundred or thousands of tonnes of bomb over a city only really lasted a few years - from say 1942 -1945. Hiroshima was the death knell for the heavy bomber.
Although they were used in Korea and Vietnam (and Laos).
Regarding the triple lock, I wonder if the bast way to reform it is to adjust the formula rather than change the name.
For example, continue to use the greater of 2.5%, CPI and wage growth, but compare each one over a rolling 3/5 year period. That would remove much of the long-term unaffordability due to the computing impact of inflation spiking one year and then wages the next etc.
I thought that as well. Better still, do it back to the time of the original promise in 201X
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
It's somewhat fortunate for Gaza that modern air forces no longer have the capability to dump thousands of tons of bombs into a city in one night, I'm sure the IAF would have done that if they could.
Its somewhat incredible to think that the age of the huge heavy bomber fleets, dropping hundred or thousands of tonnes of bomb over a city only really lasted a few years - from say 1942 -1945. Hiroshima was the death knell for the heavy bomber.
Although they were used in Korea and Vietnam (and Laos).
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
It's not Bibi propaganda. It is a (my) assessment of hostilities. I don't care whether Bibi "likes Palestinians" or not. I do know that there have been geopolitical ructions for the past, erm, 3,000 years, more acutely over the past 100 years or so. I know there are land disputes and I know also that as I see it (and as I'm sure Hamas doesn't see it) there have been ample opportunities for both sides to live in peace, once it was agreed that Jews have a right to be in the area officially (and even before that).
It was not all sweetness and light on October 6th and there were issues over in particular the West Bank settlements and all sorts. But I also know, or rather believe, in this post-facts world, that Hamas for whatever reason decided to go to war on October 7th. They were successful beyond their wildest dreams (Seth Frantzman is good on this in his book). And so war came. And a second Hamas victory has been the propaganda battle, which they have won comprehensively to the point whereby "right thinking" folk blame Israel for responding to what was an impossible situation. As you are doing now, and which I decline to do. I think a war was started so Israel went to war.
And war is horrible and people die, lots of them, so I try not to parrot "Bibi's propaganda" but to call the situation as I see i t.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
It will anger the hand-wringing sandal wearers, and I can't say I like it either. However the hand-wringing sandal wearers need to wise up that unless Mahmood gets a grip then the alternative is a Farage-Jenrick tag team that will have no qualms in exacting performative cruelty on all sorts people they don't like including sandal wearers.
I don't think anyone wants cruelty.
Either allow people to be in the country, working, and contributing. Or deport them.
Those are the rational choices.
Letting people in, not deporting them, but being cruel to them, pleases nobody.
I agree, and my initial post highlighted alarm that a LABOUR government is thinking that extracting gold teeth from boat people is a good idea.
However I don't believe disciples of Farage or Jenrick would be so squeamish.
I do, I think disciples of Farage or Jenrick would seek to deport people, not take their possessions.
My point is more about the performative cruelty. The Tories have already suggested a programme not dissimilar to ICE activities in the USA.
Remind me about Jenrick, a pot of emulsion, a brush and the unaccompanied children detention centre he once visited.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
It's somewhat fortunate for Gaza that modern air forces no longer have the capability to dump thousands of tons of bombs into a city in one night, I'm sure the IAF would have done that if they could.
Its somewhat incredible to think that the age of the huge heavy bomber fleets, dropping hundred or thousands of tonnes of bomb over a city only really lasted a few years - from say 1942 -1945. Hiroshima was the death knell for the heavy bomber.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
I find Bibi and his followers despicable.
However, a Jewish State would have been hated, wherever it was established. The human mind is hardwired to hate Jews.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
It's somewhat fortunate for Gaza that modern air forces no longer have the capability to dump thousands of tons of bombs into a city in one night, I'm sure the IAF would have done that if they could.
Its somewhat incredible to think that the age of the huge heavy bomber fleets, dropping hundred or thousands of tonnes of bomb over a city only really lasted a few years - from say 1942 -1945. Hiroshima was the death knell for the heavy bomber.
Although they were used in Korea and Vietnam (and Laos).
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
I find Bibi and his followers despicable.
However, a Jewish State would have been hated, wherever it was established. The human mind is hardwired to hate Jews.
I don't hate Jews. I don't like Netanyahu, Ben Gvir and Smotrich as individuals though.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
I find Bibi and his followers despicable.
However, a Jewish State would have been hated, wherever it was established. The human mind is hardwired to hate Jews.
It really isn't. Deeply imbedded in several cultures, though.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
It's somewhat fortunate for Gaza that modern air forces no longer have the capability to dump thousands of tons of bombs into a city in one night, I'm sure the IAF would have done that if they could.
Israel has 250 self-propelled 155mm artillery guns, and a whole bunch more of various different artillery calibres in storage.
Do we know to what extent they used artillery in Gaza, or whether they relied on air-launched munitions?
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
Not to mention, the vast majority of us descend from both settlers and indigenous.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Remind me what happened in 1967.
Egypt and Jordan tried to wipe out Israel for a second time and had their asses handed to them?
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Remind me what happened in 1967.
In May 1967, Gaza was occupied by Egypt, and Judea and... er, I mean the West Bank (sorry!) was occupied by Jordan.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
It might not have been carpet bombing but I am struck by how similar the destruction is to what was done to Germany by 1945-
It's somewhat fortunate for Gaza that modern air forces no longer have the capability to dump thousands of tons of bombs into a city in one night, I'm sure the IAF would have done that if they could.
Israel has 250 self-propelled 155mm artillery guns, and a whole bunch more of various different artillery calibres in storage.
Do we know to what extent they used artillery in Gaza, or whether they relied on air-launched munitions?
I don't see how, as they're not exactly profligate with such I formation, and reporters are excluded.
To some extent (plus tank guns) is all we can really say.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
And regarded by many as not the birthplace of modern Russian culture, which is (I think) Muscovite.
Mahmood will be encouraged that most Labour 2024 voters back them as do most voters overall.
Even amongst current Green voters less than half are opposed, with most opposition to making asylum decisions on whether someone was personally targeted by a regime rather than fleeing conflict https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1990366271058399697/photo/1
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Article 2(4) of the UN Charter forbids acquisition of land by acts of aggression. But this is certainly a post-WWII phenomenon whereby the winning side got to write the rules, seeking to stop in its tracks the previous process of the world developing according to the might is right principle. But might still is pretty right. Whether that is Ukraine or Afghan or the West Bank (albeit the might lost in Afghan a couple of times) or Syria or wherever.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Article 2(4) of the UN Charter forbids acquisition of land by acts of aggression. But this is certainly a post-WWII phenomenon whereby the winning side got to write the rules, seeking to stop in its tracks the previous process of the world developing according to the might is right principle. But might still is pretty right. Whether that is Ukraine or Afghan or the West Bank (albeit the might lost in Afghan a couple of times) or Syria or wherever.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The right in Israel have “othered” the Palestinians. Truth is that much of that ancient Jewish population of the region converted to Christianity and then to Islam, and became the people we now call Palestinians, and Muslims and Christians were the vast majority of the area 150 years ago. They have the same lineage in the region, going back thousands of years, yet many on the Israeli right wish to further ethnically cleanse them.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
The Polish side was supposed to train UAV operators, but in reality it could only provide a training ground for that, the major recalls.
“Fortunately, we took 12–15 Mavics with us, and we had one experienced pilot,” he says.
The person who became most interested in the drones was a Czech instructor — a veteran of peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan, Jakub (name changed). Together with him, “Eighteen” decided to run the exercise: Czech paratroopers were to assault the positions of the Ukrainian soldiers. The “Mavics” were supposed to help the defenders.
“After their first assault attempts, Jakub came up to me and said: ‘Hey, can we remove the Mavics?’” the major recalls. “‘Why would we, Jakub?’ I asked him.” “‘Well, your Mavics spot us way too quickly, and we can’t get close to you — you detect us as soon as we approach your positions,’ the Czech instructor replied.”
“I told him: ‘Jakub, unfortunately, we are preparing for war.’”..
Gift link to NYT article about the corruption of DOJ. One former insider says “I wouldn’t even call it the Justice Department anymore. It’s become Trump’s personal law firm. … [T]he American people should be enraged.” https://x.com/BarbMcQuade/status/1990403219621626029
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
Indeed. However self determination is tricky when more than one population claims a bit of land.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
The Polish side was supposed to train UAV operators, but in reality it could only provide a training ground for that, the major recalls.
“Fortunately, we took 12–15 Mavics with us, and we had one experienced pilot,” he says.
The person who became most interested in the drones was a Czech instructor — a veteran of peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan, Jakub (name changed). Together with him, “Eighteen” decided to run the exercise: Czech paratroopers were to assault the positions of the Ukrainian soldiers. The “Mavics” were supposed to help the defenders.
“After their first assault attempts, Jakub came up to me and said: ‘Hey, can we remove the Mavics?’” the major recalls. “‘Why would we, Jakub?’ I asked him.” “‘Well, your Mavics spot us way too quickly, and we can’t get close to you — you detect us as soon as we approach your positions,’ the Czech instructor replied.”
“I told him: ‘Jakub, unfortunately, we are preparing for war.’”..
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
Gee, I wonder why Jews in the 40s might have been leaving Europe.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
Indeed. However self determination is tricky when more than one population claims a bit of land.
Yes, it is, but it’s not difficult to see what the wrong solutions are to that challenge. Wrong solutions include genocide, ethnic cleansing, decades long military occupation, and importing settlers who steal land from the local population.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
You are being disingenuous in how you are framing this narrative.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
You are being disingenuous in how you are framing this narrative.
Comments
Richard Tice in a speech just now welcomes Mahmood talking Reform language
When Tice is on your side just how many in labour will recoil in horror ?
The thing Mahmood is probably missing is why vote for an imitation of the real thing when you can just vote Reform
I reckon it will be a zinger!
I didn't indulge, I just had a hot chocolate.
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1990397234244931959?s=19
What do you expect in war?
Death toll considerably lower though. Well done Israel.
The correct solution to unwanted people rocking up on these shores is to return them to where they came from, or failing that somewhere safe, cheap and fairly unappealing (e.g. Rwanda!).
I'm not interested in mildly performative cruelty to them. I've nothing against them, have no wish to be cruel to them - it's just that the country is full and we have no room for more people.
If it's intended as a deterrent, it's not a very good one, not least because it just means people won't bring their jewellery with them.
In theory the effects should equal out, though in practice, you will probably lose out overall for two reasons. Firstly, markets are risk-averse, and they tend to demand higher premiums the higher inflation is.
And, second, the government, being a government, will piss away the gains from a reduction in the total debt on crap like climate aid or bungs to its trade unionist supporters, then hit the struggling private sector for the burden of higher interest rates over time.
Which is broadly what's happened since 2022.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Either allow people to be in the country, working, and contributing. Or deport them.
Those are the rational choices.
Letting people in, not deporting them, but being cruel to them, pleases nobody.
There is a balancing act with the Labour left but it’s clear that taking action has broad general support. If they don’t get this right they’ve got no chance of recovering ground by the next GE.
On the substance Mahmood's policy is a restatement of Priti Patel's. I would want to know why it would work this time but not the last time. Or else why this policy is needed.
All they had to say was that every effort would be made to assess the resources and assets of asylum seekers.
However I don't believe disciples of Farage or Jenrick would be so squeamish.
Luckily for us, Hitler was mad (and as recent evidence has suggested) likely impotent, autistic and socially awkward.*
*Close followers of history may not have been surprised by these revelations.
It was not all sweetness and light on October 6th and there were issues over in particular the West Bank settlements and all sorts. But I also know, or rather believe, in this post-facts world, that Hamas for whatever reason decided to go to war on October 7th. They were successful beyond their wildest dreams (Seth Frantzman is good on this in his book). And so war came. And a second Hamas victory has been the propaganda battle, which they have won comprehensively to the point whereby "right thinking" folk blame Israel for responding to what was an impossible situation. As you are doing now, and which I decline to do. I think a war was started so Israel went to war.
And war is horrible and people die, lots of them, so I try not to parrot "Bibi's propaganda" but to call the situation as I see i t.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Remind me about Jenrick, a pot of emulsion, a brush and the unaccompanied children detention centre he once visited.
However, a Jewish State would have been hated, wherever it was established. The human mind is hardwired to hate Jews.
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
Deeply imbedded in several cultures, though.
Do we know to what extent they used artillery in Gaza, or whether they relied on air-launched munitions?
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
To some extent (plus tank guns) is all we can really say.
Idea borrowed from Denmark is latest attempt to reduce number of people seeking asylum in UK"
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/nov/17/refugees-jewellery-asylum-home-office
The Trump team is considering how to handle a post-Maduro Venezuela, writes our
@nahaltoosi
As of now, they "have the concepts of a plan.”
https://x.com/politico/status/1990203238965195186
Even amongst current Green voters less than half are opposed, with most opposition to making asylum decisions on whether someone was personally targeted by a regime rather than fleeing conflict
https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1990366271058399697/photo/1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1386
If it means he delays his plans for Canada, Greenland, Mexico, and Nigeria though, I'd be all for it.
I don't think he will though - the required production of Golden Trump statues is beyond the current capacity.
https://x.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1990386171671675253
Ukrainian soldier recalls his training experience at a NATO range in Poland:
The Polish side was supposed to train UAV operators, but in reality it could only provide a training ground for that, the major recalls.
“Fortunately, we took 12–15 Mavics with us, and we had one experienced pilot,” he says.
The person who became most interested in the drones was a Czech instructor — a veteran of peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan, Jakub (name changed). Together with him, “Eighteen” decided to run the exercise: Czech paratroopers were to assault the positions of the Ukrainian soldiers. The “Mavics” were supposed to help the defenders.
“After their first assault attempts, Jakub came up to me and said: ‘Hey, can we remove the Mavics?’” the major recalls.
“‘Why would we, Jakub?’ I asked him.”
“‘Well, your Mavics spot us way too quickly, and we can’t get close to you — you detect us as soon as we approach your positions,’ the Czech instructor replied.”
“I told him: ‘Jakub, unfortunately, we are preparing for war.’”..
The linked BBC article offers more, and interesting detail:
https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/articles/ce3xe35zl6po
https://x.com/BarbMcQuade/status/1990403219621626029
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Security services minister Tomasz Siemoniak says explosion was not the work of ‘a gang of metal thieves’
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/nov/17/ukraine-russia-france-poland-zelenskyy-macron-eu-europe-news-latest-updates
It sounds as though they're spitballing ways of toppling Maduro short of full scale invasion.
They might even succeed in that - and then, what ?
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.