There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The right in Israel have “othered” the Palestinians. Truth is that much of that ancient Jewish population of the region converted to Christianity and then to Islam, and became the people we now call Palestinians, and Muslims and Christians were the vast majority of the area 150 years ago. They have the same lineage in the region, going back thousands of years, yet many on the Israeli right wish to further ethnically cleanse them.
Given the massive immigration of European Jews to Israel over the past century or so, I would imagine that the current population of the country no longer has anything like the same degree of local lineage as the Palestinian population, FWIW.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Article 2(4) of the UN Charter forbids acquisition of land by acts of aggression. But this is certainly a post-WWII phenomenon whereby the winning side got to write the rules, seeking to stop in its tracks the previous process of the world developing according to the might is right principle. But might still is pretty right. Whether that is Ukraine or Afghan or the West Bank (albeit the might lost in Afghan a couple of times) or Syria or wherever.
Very much, so that Poland's Western boundaries, the Benes Decrees, the Western boundaries of the Soviet Union, would not be the subject of litigation, any more than the creation of Israel.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The right in Israel have “othered” the Palestinians. Truth is that much of that ancient Jewish population of the region converted to Christianity and then to Islam, and became the people we now call Palestinians, and Muslims and Christians were the vast majority of the area 150 years ago. They have the same lineage in the region, going back thousands of years, yet many on the Israeli right wish to further ethnically cleanse them.
Given the massive immigration of European Jews to Israel over the past century or so, I would imagine that the currently population of the country no longer has anything like the same degree of local lineage as the Palestinian population, FWIW.
So we should only count blood and soil nationalism going back over a century and a quarter?
Should we do that in this country too? Anyone who's ancestors weren't here over a century and a quarter ago don't belong here?
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Sky had 2 human rights lawyers rejecting the proposals as unworkable under ECHR
Will labour join the conservatives and reform by reclusing immigration from the ECHR ?
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
Why should Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza have to move to Egypt or Jordan? Are you just back to pushing ethnic cleansing?
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
Why should Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza have to move to Egypt or Jordan? Are you just back to pushing ethnic cleansing?
If they can't live peacefully with Israel, it is a better option than a never-ending cycle of violence.
If they can lay down their arms and live peacefully, then great.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
You are being disingenuous in how you are framing this narrative.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
Indeed. However self determination is tricky when more than one population claims a bit of land.
Yes, it is, but it’s not difficult to see what the wrong solutions are to that challenge. Wrong solutions include genocide, ethnic cleansing, decades long military occupation, and importing settlers who steal land from the local population.
To which we should add firing rockets indiscriminately at your neighbour, launching terrorist attacks killing 1400 people, kidnapping and raping women etc.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
You are being disingenuous in how you are framing this narrative.
I am framing it as I see it.
And you are often myopic.
Disagreeing with blood and soil nativism is not myopia. I am entirely consistent.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
Gee, I wonder why Jews in the 40s might have been leaving Europe.
For about 6 million of them it was too late by then
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Sky had 2 human rights lawyers rejecting the proposals as unworkable under ECHR
Will labour join the conservatives and reform by reclusing immigration from the ECHR ?
If Denmark is the blueprint why shouldn't it work under the terms of the ECHR that Denmark operates on?
The Polish side was supposed to train UAV operators, but in reality it could only provide a training ground for that, the major recalls.
“Fortunately, we took 12–15 Mavics with us, and we had one experienced pilot,” he says.
The person who became most interested in the drones was a Czech instructor — a veteran of peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan, Jakub (name changed). Together with him, “Eighteen” decided to run the exercise: Czech paratroopers were to assault the positions of the Ukrainian soldiers. The “Mavics” were supposed to help the defenders.
“After their first assault attempts, Jakub came up to me and said: ‘Hey, can we remove the Mavics?’” the major recalls. “‘Why would we, Jakub?’ I asked him.” “‘Well, your Mavics spot us way too quickly, and we can’t get close to you — you detect us as soon as we approach your positions,’ the Czech instructor replied.”
“I told him: ‘Jakub, unfortunately, we are preparing for war.’”..
It’s difficult to underestimate just how much of an effect small drones have had on this war, and how much the way war is fought will change going forward. The ‘Mavic’ in question is a toy drone from DJI, that costs around $1,000 and weighs 600g. It can carry a lethal payload or simply be used for reconnaissance from a couple of miles away.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
Gee, I wonder why Jews in the 40s might have been leaving Europe.
Don’t be a smart arse, Bart. We know why Jews were leaving Europe. It wasn’t because of the Palestinians or Arabs.
Considerably more Jews moved to the US than to Palestine, so should we carve out a Jewish state in New York?
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Sky had 2 human rights lawyers rejecting the proposals as unworkable under ECHR
Will labour join the conservatives and reform by reclusing immigration from the ECHR ?
If Denmark is the blueprint why shouldn't it work under the terms of the ECHR that Denmark operates on?
Denmark treats the ECHR as guidelines, not actual rules. ECHR says its incompatible and they say "well we're doing it anyway".
British lawyers and politicians tend to treat it as actual rules.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The right in Israel have “othered” the Palestinians. Truth is that much of that ancient Jewish population of the region converted to Christianity and then to Islam, and became the people we now call Palestinians, and Muslims and Christians were the vast majority of the area 150 years ago. They have the same lineage in the region, going back thousands of years, yet many on the Israeli right wish to further ethnically cleanse them.
Given the massive immigration of European Jews to Israel over the past century or so, I would imagine that the currently population of the country no longer has anything like the same degree of local lineage as the Palestinian population, FWIW.
So we should only count blood and soil nationalism going back over a century and a quarter?
Should we do that in this country too? Anyone who's ancestors weren't here over a century and a quarter ago don't belong here?
Oh, FFS, Barty, I wasn't making any sort of point like that at all. It was merely an observation on bondegezou's comment; hence the FWIW at the end.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
You are being disingenuous in how you are framing this narrative.
I am framing it as I see it.
And you are often myopic.
Disagreeing with blood and soil nativism is not myopia. I am entirely consistent.
You are in the case of Israel and Gaza consistently wrong.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Sky had 2 human rights lawyers rejecting the proposals as unworkable under ECHR
Will labour join the conservatives and reform by reclusing immigration from the ECHR ?
We are largely copying the existing Danish system which seems to be compatible with ECHR and has proven effective. Labour do have to make it effective here which I suspect is neither easy nor impossible within ECHR. IANAL so could be, and often am, very wrong.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
Gee, I wonder why Jews in the 40s might have been leaving Europe.
Don’t be a smart arse, Bart. We know why Jews were leaving Europe. It wasn’t because of the Palestinians or Arabs.
Considerably more Jews moved to the US than to Palestine, so should we carve out a Jewish state in New York?
If people in New York wished to do so then sure, why not?
Migration has been allowed around the globe and people are free to move. There were already Jews in Israel and many felt safer with their brethren than with anyone else, for damn good reason.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
Are you not keen on minority rights, then?
I am keen on minority rights within multiethnic states. That’s not what the Balfour plan was.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Sky had 2 human rights lawyers rejecting the proposals as unworkable under ECHR
Will labour join the conservatives and reform by reclusing immigration from the ECHR ?
We are largely copying the existing Danish system which seems to be compatible with ECHR and has proven effective. Labour do have to make it effective here which I suspect is neither easy nor impossible within ECHR. IANAL so could be, and often am, very wrong.
Badenoch has just announced support for the proposals
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Sky had 2 human rights lawyers rejecting the proposals as unworkable under ECHR
Will labour join the conservatives and reform by reclusing immigration from the ECHR ?
If Denmark is the blueprint why shouldn't it work under the terms of the ECHR that Denmark operates on?
I am not a human rights lawyer so cannot answer your question
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
You are being disingenuous in how you are framing this narrative.
I am framing it as I see it.
And you are often myopic.
Disagreeing with blood and soil nativism is not myopia. I am entirely consistent.
You are in the case of Israel and Gaza consistently wrong.
Really?
I seem to recall a lot of histrionic bullshit being spread during the recent conflict that Israel were committing a "genocide" against Gaza. While I said the fighting could and should end as soon as Hamas surrendered.
What happened in hindsight? No genocide, Palestinians are still in Gaza, and the fighting ended when Hamas surrendered.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Sky had 2 human rights lawyers rejecting the proposals as unworkable under ECHR
Will labour join the conservatives and reform by reclusing immigration from the ECHR ?
We are largely copying the existing Danish system which seems to be compatible with ECHR and has proven effective. Labour do have to make it effective here which I suspect is neither easy nor impossible within ECHR. IANAL so could be, and often am, very wrong.
Badenoch has just announced support for the proposals
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
Arab League states (22 nations) = 1,300,000 sq. km. in total area (approx,) Israel = 20,000 sq. km in area (approx.), or 22,000 sq. km. including the territories.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
Why should Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza have to move to Egypt or Jordan? Are you just back to pushing ethnic cleansing?
If they can't live peacefully with Israel, it is a better option than a never-ending cycle of violence.
If they can lay down their arms and live peacefully, then great.
It's quite plain that many Israeli settlers on the West Bank are determined not to live in peace with the local Palestinians.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
Are you not keen on minority rights, then?
I am keen on minority rights within multiethnic states. That’s not what the Balfour plan was.
I'm not sure the Palestinians are with you on that.
TIL. Mike Nesmith (of The Monkees fame)'s mother was a typist who invented liquid paper in her kitchen. She sold her company in the Seventies for $50m.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Sky had 2 human rights lawyers rejecting the proposals as unworkable under ECHR
Will labour join the conservatives and reform by reclusing immigration from the ECHR ?
We are largely copying the existing Danish system which seems to be compatible with ECHR and has proven effective. Labour do have to make it effective here which I suspect is neither easy nor impossible within ECHR. IANAL so could be, and often am, very wrong.
Badenoch has just announced support for the proposals
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
Why should Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza have to move to Egypt or Jordan? Are you just back to pushing ethnic cleansing?
If they can't live peacefully with Israel, it is a better option than a never-ending cycle of violence.
If they can lay down their arms and live peacefully, then great.
So, the Palestinians have to lay down their arms and live peacefully, but Israel can keep theirs?
I think a better way is to say that no-one should ever be ethnically cleansed, that ethnic cleansing and genocide are crimes against humanity. You, on the other hand, think that British planning regulations are a great restriction on your personal freedoms, but that Palestinians should be expelled from where they live because they don’t have any rights whatsoever in your world.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
You are being disingenuous in how you are framing this narrative.
I am framing it as I see it.
And you are often myopic.
Disagreeing with blood and soil nativism is not myopia. I am entirely consistent.
You are in the case of Israel and Gaza consistently wrong.
Really?
I seem to recall a lot of histrionic bullshit being spread during the recent conflict that Israel were committing a "genocide" against Gaza. While I said the fighting could and should end as soon as Hamas surrendered.
What happened in hindsight? No genocide, Palestinians are still in Gaza, and the fighting ended when Hamas surrendered.
I was right, you were wrong.
IMHO, "genocide" is a term that gets subjected to grade inflation.
But, there is ample of evidence that the IDF has repeatedly violated the Laws of Armed Conflict, in Gaza.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
4%, you say, is outrageous for a Jewish homeland? Yes I take your point.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
Indeed. However self determination is tricky when more than one population claims a bit of land.
Yes, it is, but it’s not difficult to see what the wrong solutions are to that challenge. Wrong solutions include genocide, ethnic cleansing, decades long military occupation, and importing settlers who steal land from the local population.
To which we should add firing rockets indiscriminately at your neighbour, launching terrorist attacks killing 1400 people, kidnapping and raping women etc.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
You are being disingenuous in how you are framing this narrative.
I am framing it as I see it.
And you are often myopic.
Disagreeing with blood and soil nativism is not myopia. I am entirely consistent.
You are in the case of Israel and Gaza consistently wrong.
Really?
I seem to recall a lot of histrionic bullshit being spread during the recent conflict that Israel were committing a "genocide" against Gaza. While I said the fighting could and should end as soon as Hamas surrendered.
What happened in hindsight? No genocide, Palestinians are still in Gaza, and the fighting ended when Hamas surrendered.
I was right, you were wrong.
You are right only through your myopia.
The UN has confirmed a genocide by it's terms. Shooting, bombing and starving 60,000 and counting as they pull bodies from the rubble is no footnote to history. Palestinians are living in cardboard boxes in Gaza. Execution of Palestinians by both Hamas and the IDF continue. Settlers are executing Palestinians on the West Bank to the tune of several every day.
TIL. Mike Nesmith (of The Monkees fame)'s mother was a typist who invented liquid paper in her kitchen. She sold her company in the Seventies for $50m.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
Why should Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza have to move to Egypt or Jordan? Are you just back to pushing ethnic cleansing?
If they can't live peacefully with Israel, it is a better option than a never-ending cycle of violence.
If they can lay down their arms and live peacefully, then great.
So, the Palestinians have to lay down their arms and live peacefully, but Israel can keep theirs?
I think a better way is to say that no-one should ever be ethnically cleansed, that ethnic cleansing and genocide are crimes against humanity. You, on the other hand, think that British planning regulations are a great restriction on your personal freedoms, but that Palestinians should be expelled from where they live because they don’t have any rights whatsoever in your world.
Yeah, that's what happens sometimes when you lose a war of aggression and can't stop fighting.
Plenty of wars have ended with population movements to end in more settled boundaries.
There are plenty of Arab states they could live in, including those that denied them their own one originally, Israel is the only Jewish state on the planet.
Israel is frankly more important than Palestine. And Israel won the war, that they were attacked in, and did not start. So tough.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
Gee, I wonder why Jews in the 40s might have been leaving Europe.
Don’t be a smart arse, Bart. We know why Jews were leaving Europe. It wasn’t because of the Palestinians or Arabs.
Considerably more Jews moved to the US than to Palestine, so should we carve out a Jewish state in New York?
If people in New York wished to do so then sure, why not?
Migration has been allowed around the globe and people are free to move. There were already Jews in Israel and many felt safer with their brethren than with anyone else, for damn good reason.
Your nativism against migrants notwithstanding.
What a weird response. I wasn’t arguing against immigration.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Sky had 2 human rights lawyers rejecting the proposals as unworkable under ECHR
Will labour join the conservatives and reform by reclusing immigration from the ECHR ?
If Denmark is the blueprint why shouldn't it work under the terms of the ECHR that Denmark operates on?
Denmark treats the ECHR as guidelines, not actual rules. ECHR says its incompatible and they say "well we're doing it anyway".
British lawyers and politicians tend to treat it as actual rules.
Just checking in with the PB Hasbara lads, do they agree with many Israeli Jews including members of the Israeli government that the most powerful claim they have to the land of Israel (which seems to include parts of neighbouring countries) is that God promised them the land 3000+ years ago? I want to get a sense of their attachment to reality.
TIL. Mike Nesmith (of The Monkees fame)'s mother was a typist who invented liquid paper in her kitchen. She sold her company in the Seventies for $50m.
Is that American speak for TippEx?
Tipp-ex is a German brand name. Ms Nesmith Graham's was Mistake Out. Terrible name. Incidentally, she was fired as a typist for spending too much time on her "silly invention".
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
4%, you say, is outrageous for a Jewish homeland? Yes I take your point.
4% of Palestine, not 4% of the area marked on your graph.
Just checking in with the PB Hasbara lads, do they agree with many Israeli Jews including members of the Israeli government that the most powerful claim they have to the land of Israel (which seems to include parts of neighbouring countries) is that God promised them the land 3000+ years ago? I want to get a sense of their attachment to reality.
They were certainly there 3,000 years ago so were indigenous to the land. Are you denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination? Surely not.
TIL. Mike Nesmith (of The Monkees fame)'s mother was a typist who invented liquid paper in her kitchen. She sold her company in the Seventies for $50m.
Is that American speak for TippEx?
Liquid Paper was the brand name, bought from Mrs Nesmith by Gillette. It was popular over here in the seventies as was Snopake (snowpaque)
Just checking in with the PB Hasbara lads, do they agree with many Israeli Jews including members of the Israeli government that the most powerful claim they have to the land of Israel (which seems to include parts of neighbouring countries) is that God promised them the land 3000+ years ago? I want to get a sense of their attachment to reality.
They were certainly there 3,000 years ago so were indigenous to the land. Are you denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination? Surely not.
There is a good (well I would say that) Israeli comic who puts it thus:
Every country in the world is made up of one of two models: colonisers or indigenous peoples.
So you can pick a model. If you think the indigenous peoples model is right then the Jews win because they have been in the region for thousands of years. If you think the coloniser model is right then the Jews win because they are colonisers. So either way the Jews belong just where they are.
The same goes for Ukraine, of course. Russians have lived there for centuries; indeed Kyiv is regarded by many as the birthplace of Russian culture. So if Russia manages to take Ukrainian territory by conquest, then, by your (or rather, the Israeli comic's) logic, they have every right to their gains.
Difference is that Israel gained the land in 1967 in defence, not an unprovoked war of offence. In 1948 too, it was their land and they gained land from those attacking them too.
If Ukraine ends up with Russian land, that would be equivalent.
The attacks on Israel in 1948 were of course preceded by Jewish attacks on and expulsion of the native Palestinian population in preparation for the establishment of the State of Israel, so it's debatable to say the least whether it was their land.
Not quite. In advance of 1948 there were running attacks and counter-attacks on and by the Jews. The Jews often got the better of those engagements and, in behaviour that we have seen since that time, thought "fuck it" and realised that if they were in battles for their survival vs an enemy that wanted to wipe them out, then they might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb (both kosher, presumably), and implemented Plan D, which was designed to do clear a greater area. This is all described by Benny Morris, who is not always a very sympathetic voice on Israel's history (he is particularly scathing on reasons for the Intifadas).
I think it is, however, fair to say the following: a) Jews are indigenous to the area; b) Balfour had plans to give them a homeland; c) the Arabs detested the idea of the Jews having a homeland amongst the Arabs and "Arab Nationalism" became a thing; d) the Arabs did all they could to inhibit the creation of a Jewish state (see "siege of Jerusalem" - not the 70 AD one); f) this developed into running battles between the Arabs and the Jews; during which g) "Plan D" was enacted.
And then of course the invasion of was it five Arab armies on the formal creation of the State of Israel. As that Israeli comic might have noted, depends how far back you want to go but there has been Arab antipathy and active antipathy to the Jews for quite some time now.
Jews are indigenous to the area, but no more than the people you call Arabs. They are descended from the same local population. Jews made up about 4% of the population in 1900. You can see why 96% of the population didn’t see why 4% should get to carve out their own homeland. The Jewish population increased, almost entirely through immigration from Europe.
4%, you say, is outrageous for a Jewish homeland? Yes I take your point.
4% of Palestine, not 4% of the area marked on your graph.
At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows
Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel
Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.
Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.
Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.
Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.
I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?
I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
Of course. But first, we don't know whether, how, or why these prisoners died. And secondly, that was part of the point I was making. I mean Bloody Sunday enquiries and whatnot aside (more "whataboutery" I'm sure people will say, although again as BR as pointed out, it's also context), you yourself have said that Israel is fighting a "lawless death cult". If only such analysis had been brought to the 2-year conflict as you finally have alighted on here. Because usually that assessment is then followed by a "...but..." and then by criticisism of the Israelis.
As you agree, Israel has both been fighting a lawless death cult for two years and also is being held to the highest account by its own domestic groups. What a place. Is all my first point observied.
I'm delighted that we align on this.
We align in so much as Israel have every right to remove individuals directly involved with Hamas who ruthlessly murdered 1500 people in October 2023. I don't have a problem with Israel taking out the bad guys in Doha either.
Where we diverge is acceptance of the carpet bombing of Gaza, the indiscriminate shooting of Palestinians (and Jews- let's not forget the IDF shot three escaped Israeli hostages for a bit of a giggle, not realising they were Israelis and not Palestinian, and Netanyahu apparently sustaining his Prime Ministership through violence in order to keep himself out of court and out of jail on corruption charges.
It wasn't carpet bombing of Gaza. That is a Hamas narrative that you are regurgitating. They did, however, go after Hamas operatives who a) live in Gaza, and b) set themselves up within the civilian population and in civilian institutions in Gaza.
Have you seen the state of the buildings in Gaza City? Weren't Hamas holed up in the tunnels anyway?
You are trying to assert that I am defending Hamas. I am not, but neither am I defending Bibi's Israel who would appear to have met the terms of the UN definition of genocide.
I don't think it is particularly controversial to state that Hamas has embedded itself in the tunnels, in civilian institutions, in and around Gaza in general.
I'm not sure if you have seen any footage of the destruction but it is not carpet bombing. Have many, many buildings been levelled so as to portray a scene of total devastation? Yes they have. But (and I appreciate you won't like this) it is not carpet bombing of the type engaged in at ******* or ******* or ******* (not to engage in whataboutery).
But again, this is war and that shit will happen. Actual carpet bombing happens in war. It is not COIN ops any more or indeed at all. It is war. Sorry, again, to reiterate this, but that stuff happens in war. Hamas is the legitimately-elected government of Gaza and while I have no doubt that some Gazans want to overthrow them (there were some "good" Germans, after all) it is a war. Which they started.
Are you Eylon Levy?
Engage with the points under discussion.
There's no point when you just fart out Bibi propaganda whilst I am suggesting there is an alternative focus, which may be that despite Hamas being 'orrible ****s Bibi has progressed his war to inflict maximum pain on Palestinians, not least because he doesn't like them (see Max Hastings's book).
"The Palestinians could have agreed to the Two-State Solution way back in 1948" - discuss!
The Balfour Declaration was an abomination. Perhaps an Israeli homeland in Texas would have been a better solution. Discuss.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. No abomination there.
Not Israel's fault the Arabs rejected a two state solution in 1948.
Nor is it the fault of today’s Palestinian population. Why should people today be denied their self-determination because of the sins of their fathers and grandfathers (or indeed their neighbours’ fathers and grandfathers)?
They shouldn't.
They should be free to determine a future in Egypt or Jordan that denied them their own land.
Why should Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza have to move to Egypt or Jordan? Are you just back to pushing ethnic cleansing?
If they can't live peacefully with Israel, it is a better option than a never-ending cycle of violence.
If they can lay down their arms and live peacefully, then great.
So, the Palestinians have to lay down their arms and live peacefully, but Israel can keep theirs?
I think a better way is to say that no-one should ever be ethnically cleansed, that ethnic cleansing and genocide are crimes against humanity. You, on the other hand, think that British planning regulations are a great restriction on your personal freedoms, but that Palestinians should be expelled from where they live because they don’t have any rights whatsoever in your world.
Yeah, that's what happens sometimes when you lose a war of aggression and can't stop fighting.
Plenty of wars have ended with population movements to end in more settled boundaries.
There are plenty of Arab states they could live in, including those that denied them their own one originally, Israel is the only Jewish state on the planet.
Israel is frankly more important than Palestine. And Israel won the war, that they were attacked in, and did not start. So tough.
There you go, this is what Bart believes: might is right, some races are more important than others, crimes against humanity are fine ‘n dandy.
Richard Tice in a speech just now welcomes Mahmood talking Reform language
When Tice is on your side just how many in labour will recoil in horror ?
The thing Mahmood is probably missing is why vote for an imitation of the real thing when you can just vote Reform
Except that immigration is not the only government policy that is important. Many Labour voters might welcome tougher laws on illegals and asylum seekers but agree with Labour's other policies more than they do with Reform's.
I am kind of in that bracket but if the left scupper Mahmood's plans like they did with the WFA then I'm done with Labour. Wouldn't touch Polanski or Corbyn's Gaza mob with a barge poll so would probably sit the next election out.
TIL. Mike Nesmith (of The Monkees fame)'s mother was a typist who invented liquid paper in her kitchen. She sold her company in the Seventies for $50m.
Is that American speak for TippEx?
Liquid Paper was the brand name, bought from Mrs Nesmith by Gillette. It was popular over here in the seventies as was Snopake (snowpaque)
Corrected above by an Everton legend. I am assuming Gillette changed Mrs Nesmith's brand name to Liquid Paper.
Today's asylum announcement seems like another mistake from Starmer from a political point of view, because I can't see most Labour MPs supporting it.
Most Labour voters support the policies - perhaps not the rhetoric. There will be a rebellion but the Tories have pledged to support, so if that stands Starmer can just ignore the rebels and let them vote against.
Comments
Should we do that in this country too? Anyone who's ancestors weren't here over a century and a quarter ago don't belong here?
Will labour join the conservatives and reform by reclusing immigration from the ECHR ?
If they can lay down their arms and live peacefully, then great.
Considerably more Jews moved to the US than to Palestine, so should we carve out a Jewish state in New York?
British lawyers and politicians tend to treat it as actual rules.
Migration has been allowed around the globe and people are free to move. There were already Jews in Israel and many felt safer with their brethren than with anyone else, for damn good reason.
Your nativism against migrants notwithstanding.
Happy to entertain any betting proposal.
I seem to recall a lot of histrionic bullshit being spread during the recent conflict that Israel were committing a "genocide" against Gaza. While I said the fighting could and should end as soon as Hamas surrendered.
What happened in hindsight? No genocide, Palestinians are still in Gaza, and the fighting ended when Hamas surrendered.
I was right, you were wrong.
That means they must be terrible!
Israel = 20,000 sq. km in area (approx.), or 22,000 sq. km. including the territories.
Mike Nesmith (of The Monkees fame)'s mother was a typist who invented liquid paper in her kitchen.
She sold her company in the Seventies for $50m.
I think a better way is to say that no-one should ever be ethnically cleansed, that ethnic cleansing and genocide are crimes against humanity. You, on the other hand, think that British planning regulations are a great restriction on your personal freedoms, but that Palestinians should be expelled from where they live because they don’t have any rights whatsoever in your world.
But, there is ample of evidence that the IDF has repeatedly violated the Laws of Armed Conflict, in Gaza.
The UN has confirmed a genocide by it's terms. Shooting, bombing and starving 60,000 and counting as they pull bodies from the rubble is no footnote to history. Palestinians are living in cardboard boxes in Gaza. Execution of Palestinians by both Hamas and the IDF continue. Settlers are executing Palestinians on the West Bank to the tune of several every day.
Merry Christmas, war isn't over yet.
Plenty of wars have ended with population movements to end in more settled boundaries.
There are plenty of Arab states they could live in, including those that denied them their own one originally, Israel is the only Jewish state on the planet.
Israel is frankly more important than Palestine. And Israel won the war, that they were attacked in, and did not start. So tough.
Terrible name.
Incidentally, she was fired as a typist for spending too much time on her "silly invention".
NEW THREAD
I am kind of in that bracket but if the left scupper Mahmood's plans like they did with the WFA then I'm done with Labour. Wouldn't touch Polanski or Corbyn's Gaza mob with a barge poll so would probably sit the next election out.