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Politicians usually never recover from these figures – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,791
edited 7:52AM in General
Politicians usually never recover from these figures – politicalbetting.com

…and Reeves is in a similar boat.The Chancellor now has the worst satisfaction scores we’ve recorded for a Chancellor of the Exchequer.Prev. lows include Kwasi Kwarteng (Oct 22: 12% satisfied, 65% dissatisfied). pic.twitter.com/E3NeYODmem

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  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,778
    Cross one off the list for first Labour lady prime minister, then?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,868
    Bet Kwasi Kwarteng is pretty chuffed this morning.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,364
    Still 10 days until the Budget, how many more leaks are we going to get to the media out of the Treasury?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,795
    edited 8:03AM
    Going forth and conking out.

    Thanks for the header, and good morning everyone.

    An interesting Scott Galloway interview with historian Heather Richardson.

    Suggestions are that ultra-rich people in the USA have lost their sense (in their heads) of wealth being in large part luck and opportunity, and that therefore a need to "give back" has been lost; "this is MINE".

    And some interesting comparisons with the 1950s, and how loss of universal military service (and diversification of roles in the military eg contractors) has helped undermine a sense of local community.

    (I think they rather fetishise the 1950s which imo hardwired in a lot of societal and philosophical problems, though imo they are right in saying that turbo-individualism is part of the current issue.)

    The Fight to Save American Democracy — with Heather Cox Richardson | Prof G Conversations"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVV1rZUw-jI
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,793
    DavidL said:

    Bet Kwasi Kwarteng is pretty chuffed this morning.

    Nah, he still has the 'honour' of being the only minister to be sacked by Liz Truss for being crap, that's like having your parenting skills criticised by Josef Fritzl.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,778
    Sandpit said:

    Still 10 days until the Budget, how many more leaks are we going to get to the media out of the Treasury?

    Is anyone compiling a record of all these leaks (or alleged leaks) so we can play budget day bingo?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,868
    edited 8:06AM
    Sandpit said:

    Still 10 days until the Budget, how many more leaks are we going to get to the media out of the Treasury?

    I saw one yesterday which was the milkshake tax, a policy of removing the exemption from the Soft Drinks industry levy from milk shake products. It was sucking the bottom of the glass for me.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,951
    When did the definition of democracy change to a) pandering to the media and b) pandering to the pollsters? Or are we addicted to both here on PB?
  • eekeek Posts: 31,928

    Sandpit said:

    Still 10 days until the Budget, how many more leaks are we going to get to the media out of the Treasury?

    Is anyone compiling a record of all these leaks (or alleged leaks) so we can play budget day bingo?
    I’m trying to work out what plausible tax change hasn’t been “leaked” so far. Have we had changes to VAT at any point?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,881
    Fpt
    Foxy said:
    Marjorie Taylor Southam!

    Tim ex of PB is still on board I think, but he cuts a sad figure on twitter nowadays, tilting exclusively at Len McClusky, Zarah, Jezza etc. Can’t remember the last time he had a go at a Tory.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,391
    Posted this yesterday.
    I seem to share TSE's news instincts.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,793
    Shocked face.

    At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows

    Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel


    Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.

    Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/17/at-least-98-palestinians-have-died-in-custody-since-october-2023-israeli-data-shows
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,146
    Nigelb said:

    Posted this yesterday.
    I seem to share TSE's news instincts.

    Be grateful you don't share his fashion sense.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,740
    Battlebus said:

    When did the definition of democracy change to a) pandering to the media and b) pandering to the pollsters? Or are we addicted to both here on PB?

    This has also become the definition of Treasury Orthodoxy. We are about to witness a budget statement driven by public opinion (or the fear of it) in preference to economic theory. As a (slightly) trained economist I'm not sure which is better.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,881
    edited 8:09AM

    Shocked face.

    At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows

    Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel


    Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.

    Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/17/at-least-98-palestinians-have-died-in-custody-since-october-2023-israeli-data-shows

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) are Hamas, obviously.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,740

    Fpt

    Foxy said:
    Marjorie Taylor Southam!

    Tim ex of PB is still on board I think, but he cuts a sad figure on twitter nowadays, tilting exclusively at Len McClusky, Zarah, Jezza etc. Can’t remember the last time he had a go at a Tory.
    Coincidentally I drove through Southam last week. The mean streets are liberally adorned with patriotic flags. With Kenilworth trending Green, Sir Jeremy Wright could have better prospects in Coventry South next time.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,969
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Still 10 days until the Budget, how many more leaks are we going to get to the media out of the Treasury?

    I saw one yesterday which was the milkshake tax, a policy of removing the exemption from the Soft Drinks industry levy from milk shake products. It was sucking the bottom of the glass for me.
    What odds that Reeves breaks out in song mid speech?:

    "My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard
    And they're like it's better than yours
    Damn right, it's better than yours
    I could teach you, but I'd have to charge"
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,793

    Shocked face.

    At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows

    Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel


    Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.

    Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/17/at-least-98-palestinians-have-died-in-custody-since-october-2023-israeli-data-shows

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) are Hamas, obviously.
    The pro genocide lads are going to have a hard time trying to spin this one.

    My favourite was when they tried to spin this, just imagine how bad things would be if the IDF weren't the most moral army in the world.

    Three Israeli hostages mistakenly killed by soldiers in Gaza on Friday had used leftover food to write signs pleading for help, Israel says.

    The men had been staying at the building next to where they were shot "for some period of time", according to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).

    The head of the IDF told troops that they are "absolutely not" permitted to shoot those surrendering.

    "The IDF doesn't shoot a person who raises their hands," said Herzi Halevi.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,258

    Fpt

    Foxy said:
    Marjorie Taylor Southam!

    Tim ex of PB is still on board I think, but he cuts a sad figure on twitter nowadays, tilting exclusively at Len McClusky, Zarah, Jezza etc. Can’t remember the last time he had a go at a Tory.
    Everyone who gets deep into Twitter/X seems to turn inexorably into a lunatic.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,391

    Nigelb said:

    Posted this yesterday.
    I seem to share TSE's news instincts.

    Be grateful you don't share his fashion sense.
    You've never seen my shoes.
    But you guess correctly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,391
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    One of the reasons for the dissatisfaction score is quite likely their failure to do anything significant and worthwhile.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,224

    Shocked face.

    At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows

    Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel


    Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.

    Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/17/at-least-98-palestinians-have-died-in-custody-since-october-2023-israeli-data-shows

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) are Hamas, obviously.
    Have the Israelis considered just putting a FOI request to Hamas for where the remaining bodies are? Would seem the obvious move…
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,597
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Governments these days, can't even do being unpopular properly.

    Applies equally to Starmer, Sunak, Truss and Johnson in their own way. None made any of the difficult decisions in that long-term interests of the country, yet all ended up deeply unpopular in the space of between a few weeks and a few years.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,364
    edited 8:28AM
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Yes, if you need to make a change to something major, then own the decision and explain yourself as the government. Instead we’ve appear to have policy making by leaks and opinion polls which ends up wih nothing done, but with huge amounts of political capital lost.

    The “Exit Tax” rumours were on the news in the sandpit last week, people are making decisions that affect government revenue off the back of something with might not even happen. That the idea was even floated is causing emigration planning, loads of us Brits in expatville have had contact from people in the UK in the last couple of weeks.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,146
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Yes, if you need to make a change to something major, then own the decision and explain yourself as the government. Instead we’ve appear to have policy making by leaks and opinion polls which ends up wih nothing done, but with huge amounts of political capital lost.

    The “Exit Tax” rumours were on the news in the sandpit last week, people are making decisions that affect government revenue, off the back of something with might not even happen. That the idea was even floated is causing emigration planning, loads of us Brits in expatville have had contact from people in the UK in the last couple of weeks.
    Political and actual capital has been lost.

    Still, it'll be interesting to see if Reeves exceeds expectations or, perhaps more likely, the precise manner of the failure. Paucity of ambition? Stupid taxation? Excessive spending pledges? Promising to give the Caribbean £18tn because Guardianistas think it's righteous?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,336
    IDK if the figures for any PM have nosedive so soon in a government. If they haven't, then what happens from here may be less predictable than expected.

    Good morning, everybody.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,559
    Ratters said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Governments these days, can't even do being unpopular properly.

    Applies equally to Starmer, Sunak, Truss and Johnson in their own way. None made any of the difficult decisions in that long-term interests of the country, yet all ended up deeply unpopular in the space of between a few weeks and a few years.
    It’s an almost Zen thing - if you chase popularity, you will never find it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,146

    Ratters said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Governments these days, can't even do being unpopular properly.

    Applies equally to Starmer, Sunak, Truss and Johnson in their own way. None made any of the difficult decisions in that long-term interests of the country, yet all ended up deeply unpopular in the space of between a few weeks and a few years.
    It’s an almost Zen thing - if you chase popularity, you will never find it.
    Reminds me (the opposite, anyway) of Kimi Raikkonen.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,795
    edited 8:38AM
    Interesting. A flip to "flood the zone and publish it all" by Trump was one of the scenarios in the Rest is Politics US I linked yesterday.

    IMO that means a) He knows it's all coming out with GOP support and there is nothing he can do, b) He is not in the records as an offender and thinks the others will help triangulate, or c) He thinks he has successfully excluded his problems by censorship.

    Scaramucci said that it is also Trump being politically far better at setting agendas rather than being on the run responding to them. His mob has moved and he wants to be standing in front of it again.

    US President Donald Trump has urged lawmakers in his own party to vote to release files relating to the late convicted paedophile financier Jeffrey Epstein.

    Trump wrote on Sunday night that Republicans in the House of Representatives should do so "because we have nothing to hide".

    The reversal of his recent position follows a slow drip feed of documents concerning the disgraced financier by House Democrats, some of which reference Trump, who has always denied any link to Epstein's sex abuse and trafficking.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgv653v1vjo
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,778
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    It makes a good case for getting rid of the Triple Lock.

    We all know that it has to go at some point, and its not as if pensioners vote Labour.
    Ironic advocacy given the concessions made on doctors' pensions.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,928
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....

    2p on income tax gives this Government money to spend. Pick a few projects, get spades in the ground and people will appreciate it and provided their area improves a bit vote for the party in power...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,630
    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,391

    Ratters said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Governments these days, can't even do being unpopular properly.

    Applies equally to Starmer, Sunak, Truss and Johnson in their own way. None made any of the difficult decisions in that long-term interests of the country, yet all ended up deeply unpopular in the space of between a few weeks and a few years.
    It’s an almost Zen thing - if you chase popularity, you will never find it.
    Not unconnected with Trump's slide, too.

    President Trump says NYC Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani “would like to come to Washington and meet, and we’ll work something out. We want to see everything work out well for New York.”
    https://x.com/JuliaManch/status/1990208018235977945
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,017
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    One of the reasons for the dissatisfaction score is quite likely their failure to do anything significant and worthwhile.
    Non-Tories endured 14 years of Tory PMs for this. And for what?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,789
    MattW said:

    Interesting. A flip to "flood the zone and publish it all" by Trump was one of the scenarios in the Rest is Politics US I linked yesterday.

    IMO that means a) He knows it's all coming out with GOP support and there is nothing he can do, b) He is not in the records as an offender and thinks the others will help triangulate, or c) He thinks he has successfully excluded his problems by censorship.

    Scaramucci said that it is also Trump being politically far better at setting agendas rather than being on the run responding to them. His mob has moved and he wants to be standing in front of it again.

    US President Donald Trump has urged lawmakers in his own party to vote to release files relating to the late convicted paedophile financier Jeffrey Epstein.

    Trump wrote on Sunday night that Republicans in the House of Representatives should do so "because we have nothing to hide".

    The reversal of his recent position follows a slow drip feed of documents concerning the disgraced financier by House Democrats, some of which reference Trump, who has always denied any link to Epstein's sex abuse and trafficking.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgv653v1vjo

    It’s a variant of (a). He knows the GOP was breaking ranks so he wants to be ahead of them rather than being seen as a loser. AIUI the senate can just not bring it to a vote anyway
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,336

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Yes, if you need to make a change to something major, then own the decision and explain yourself as the government. Instead we’ve appear to have policy making by leaks and opinion polls which ends up wih nothing done, but with huge amounts of political capital lost.

    The “Exit Tax” rumours were on the news in the sandpit last week, people are making decisions that affect government revenue, off the back of something with might not even happen. That the idea was even floated is causing emigration planning, loads of us Brits in expatville have had contact from people in the UK in the last couple of weeks.
    Political and actual capital has been lost.

    Still, it'll be interesting to see if Reeves exceeds expectations or, perhaps more likely, the precise manner of the failure. Paucity of ambition? Stupid taxation? Excessive spending pledges? Promising to give the Caribbean £18tn because Guardianistas think it's righteous?
    We might perhaps offer to match the funds that the Caribbean put into fighting present-day slavery in other countries where it's still routine.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,668
    edited 8:42AM
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Yes, if you need to make a change to something major, then own the decision and explain yourself as the government. Instead we’ve appear to have policy making by leaks and opinion polls which ends up wih nothing done, but with huge amounts of political capital lost.

    The “Exit Tax” rumours were on the news in the sandpit last week, people are making decisions that affect government revenue off the back of something with might not even happen. That the idea was even floated is causing emigration planning, loads of us Brits in expatville have had contact from people in the UK in the last couple of weeks.
    The majority of the 10,001 tax proposals floated have been floated by, checks notes, the Telegraph.

    The milkshakes are on me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,391
    MattW said:

    Interesting. A flip to "flood the zone and publish it all" by Trump was one of the scenarios in the Rest is Politics US I linked yesterday.

    IMO that means a) He knows it's all coming out with GOP support and there is nothing he can do, b) He is not in the records as an offender and thinks the others will help triangulate, or c) He thinks he has successfully excluded his problems by censorship.

    Scaramucci said that it is also Trump being politically far better at setting agendas rather than being on the run responding to them. His mob has moved and he wants to be standing in front of it again.

    US President Donald Trump has urged lawmakers in his own party to vote to release files relating to the late convicted paedophile financier Jeffrey Epstein.

    Trump wrote on Sunday night that Republicans in the House of Representatives should do so "because we have nothing to hide".

    The reversal of his recent position follows a slow drip feed of documents concerning the disgraced financier by House Democrats, some of which reference Trump, who has always denied any link to Epstein's sex abuse and trafficking.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgv653v1vjo

    As we saw with Jan 6th.
    His ability to respond rapidly to events, other than rhetorically, is chaotic at best.

    A congressional vote at least buys him time, as a vote to release the files will also have to go through the Senate, with its many means of delay, before actually achieving anything.

    As noted earlier, if he really wanted to release the files, he could order it done by tomorrow.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,548
    AnneJGP said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Yes, if you need to make a change to something major, then own the decision and explain yourself as the government. Instead we’ve appear to have policy making by leaks and opinion polls which ends up wih nothing done, but with huge amounts of political capital lost.

    The “Exit Tax” rumours were on the news in the sandpit last week, people are making decisions that affect government revenue, off the back of something with might not even happen. That the idea was even floated is causing emigration planning, loads of us Brits in expatville have had contact from people in the UK in the last couple of weeks.
    Political and actual capital has been lost.

    Still, it'll be interesting to see if Reeves exceeds expectations or, perhaps more likely, the precise manner of the failure. Paucity of ambition? Stupid taxation? Excessive spending pledges? Promising to give the Caribbean £18tn because Guardianistas think it's righteous?
    We might perhaps offer to match the funds that the Caribbean put into fighting present-day slavery in other countries where it's still routine.
    They should be talking to the West Africans we bought the slaves off
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,391

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    One of the reasons for the dissatisfaction score is quite likely their failure to do anything significant and worthwhile.
    Non-Tories endured 14 years of Tory PMs for this. And for what?
    What makes it worse is that there were some aspects of Labour's plans for government (the proposals for getting Britain building again, for example) which were pretty good. They have gone essentially nowhere.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,778

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Yes, if you need to make a change to something major, then own the decision and explain yourself as the government. Instead we’ve appear to have policy making by leaks and opinion polls which ends up wih nothing done, but with huge amounts of political capital lost.

    The “Exit Tax” rumours were on the news in the sandpit last week, people are making decisions that affect government revenue off the back of something with might not even happen. That the idea was even floated is causing emigration planning, loads of us Brits in expatville have had contact from people in the UK in the last couple of weeks.
    The majority of the 10,001 tax proposals floated have been floated by, checks notes, the Telegraph.

    The milkshakes are on me.
    The Telegraph is the house journal of the Labour Party.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,364
    edited 8:46AM

    MattW said:

    Interesting. A flip to "flood the zone and publish it all" by Trump was one of the scenarios in the Rest is Politics US I linked yesterday.

    IMO that means a) He knows it's all coming out with GOP support and there is nothing he can do, b) He is not in the records as an offender and thinks the others will help triangulate, or c) He thinks he has successfully excluded his problems by censorship.

    Scaramucci said that it is also Trump being politically far better at setting agendas rather than being on the run responding to them. His mob has moved and he wants to be standing in front of it again.

    US President Donald Trump has urged lawmakers in his own party to vote to release files relating to the late convicted paedophile financier Jeffrey Epstein.

    Trump wrote on Sunday night that Republicans in the House of Representatives should do so "because we have nothing to hide".

    The reversal of his recent position follows a slow drip feed of documents concerning the disgraced financier by House Democrats, some of which reference Trump, who has always denied any link to Epstein's sex abuse and trafficking.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgv653v1vjo

    It’s a variant of (a). He knows the GOP was breaking ranks so he wants to be ahead of them rather than being seen as a loser. AIUI the senate can just not bring it to a vote anyway
    He also knows what he did and didn’t do, so must be pretty sure that what we’ve seen in the last few days is all that has Trump’s name on it directly.

    He’ll also know that the release of the files will be a bomb under the whole American political Establishment, with hundreds of politicans and political donors implicated from all sides. It’ll be the biggest news story of the year, and will run for weeks to the exclusion of pretty much anything else.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,280
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    It makes a good case for getting rid of the Triple Lock.

    We all know that it has to go at some point, and its not as if pensioners vote Labour.
    Just hike NI and all worries are over , that is the fair thing to do , make the workers pay.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,653

    Ratters said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Governments these days, can't even do being unpopular properly.

    Applies equally to Starmer, Sunak, Truss and Johnson in their own way. None made any of the difficult decisions in that long-term interests of the country, yet all ended up deeply unpopular in the space of between a few weeks and a few years.
    It’s an almost Zen thing - if you chase popularity, you will never find it.
    Or, as someone else put it,

    For those who want to save their life will lose it...

    Wisdom is wisdom.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,416

    "Small boat migrants to have jewellery & assets seized to pay for accommodation as part of Home Sec’s arrivals crackdown"

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/37340079/migrants-jewellery-seized-accommodation/

    Taking the jewellery from those sent to the gas chambers vibes.

    Must be a vote winner.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,280
    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....

    2p on income tax gives this Government money to spend. Pick a few projects, get spades in the ground and people will appreciate it and provided their area improves a bit vote for the party in power...
    and the band played believe it if you like
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,258
    edited 8:50AM
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    It makes a good case for getting rid of the Triple Lock.

    We all know that it has to go at some point, and its not as if pensioners vote Labour.
    On that basis they're now in the amazingly fortunate position of being able to detriment almost any group of voters that they wish!

    As long as they leave educated public sector workers in London alone, I guess?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,437

    Shocked face.

    At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows

    Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel


    Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.

    Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/17/at-least-98-palestinians-have-died-in-custody-since-october-2023-israeli-data-shows

    Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,752
    edited 8:51AM
    Foxy said:
    There's a lot in that. But I don't think there's a way back for Starmer and Reeves. The Tories weren't popular during the coalition years, but Cameron's ratings were never all that bad.
    This kind of thing could be the reboot under a new leader.

    On tax, there's a lot to be said for big changes. Tear it all up, abolish NI, change the number of bands etc and it's not only potentially fairer, it's harder to work sell it as an out and out break of manifesto promise. Cynically, abolish income tax and NI and inheritance tax and introduce a new annual gained wealth tax :wink:

    ETA: By way back, I mean way back to popularity. I don't think it's impossible that Starmer could be PM after the next election, if he hangs on until then - unless Con get their act together, there's a big anti-reform vote to squeeze. But maybe any coalition partners would demand the end of Starmer as LDs did re Brown in 2015.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,437
    nico67 said:

    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .

    Very funny.

    Trump doesn't want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Trump does want to release the files: PB in uproar
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,364
    FF43 said:

    "Small boat migrants to have jewellery & assets seized to pay for accommodation as part of Home Sec’s arrivals crackdown"

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/37340079/migrants-jewellery-seized-accommodation/

    Taking the jewellery from those sent to the gas chambers vibes.

    Must be a vote winner.
    Imagine the reaction from Labour, if Farage or anyone in the last government had made the same suggestion.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,578
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    It makes a good case for getting rid of the Triple Lock.

    We all know that it has to go at some point, and its not as if pensioners vote Labour.
    Just hike NI and all worries are over , that is the fair thing to do , make the workers pay.
    Typical lazy welfare parasite, just wanting working people to pay for their welfare.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,793
    Headlines I never expected to read.

    Trump ‘did not perform sex act on Bill Clinton’, insists Epstein’s brother

    Paedophile financier’s sibling referenced photos of Republican president ‘blowing Bubba’, newly released emails show


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/11/16/trump-did-not-perform-sex-act-bill-clinton-epstein-brother/?recomm_id=146ddaa4-5556-42f1-9139-fd1ade838961
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,017
    AnneJGP said:

    IDK if the figures for any PM have nosedive so soon in a government. If they haven't, then what happens from here may be less predictable than expected.

    Good morning, everybody.

    The situation is unprecedented. I think it's still the Truss Calamity working its way through the system.

    In normal circumstances Starmer likely would not have become PM. But the voters felt they had to punish the Tories for the 49 days of Truss, and now they really resent that Starmer was the available means to exact that punishment.

    It's an example of how contingent the future is. Had Truss not become PM, the likelihood is that Sunak would have just about scraped re-election, Labour would now have a new leader of the opposition, and Farage may have decided contesting the 2024GE wasn't worth the effort.

    When Labour replace Starmer there is another opportunity for a single event to upend everything. It could accelerate Labour's decline towards sixth party status, or it might be the start of a recovery. I couldn't say ahead of time, but I would think the first 49 days would probably narrow the range of future possibilities quite considerably.

    Labour have one chance to turn this around by replacing Starmer.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,280
    FF43 said:

    "Small boat migrants to have jewellery & assets seized to pay for accommodation as part of Home Sec’s arrivals crackdown"

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/37340079/migrants-jewellery-seized-accommodation/

    Taking the jewellery from those sent to the gas chambers vibes.

    Must be a vote winner.
    Even threat of it and deportation seems to have worked for Denmark, they have solved their problem big time. Who would have thought unlimited goodies for free would have encouraged people to come here, absolutely amazing.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,578

    Headlines I never expected to read.

    Trump ‘did not perform sex act on Bill Clinton’, insists Epstein’s brother

    Paedophile financier’s sibling referenced photos of Republican president ‘blowing Bubba’, newly released emails show


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/11/16/trump-did-not-perform-sex-act-bill-clinton-epstein-brother/?recomm_id=146ddaa4-5556-42f1-9139-fd1ade838961

    Trump having a thing for Bill would explain his deep hatred of Hillary.

    Jealousy is a green eyed monster.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,280

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    It makes a good case for getting rid of the Triple Lock.

    We all know that it has to go at some point, and its not as if pensioners vote Labour.
    Just hike NI and all worries are over , that is the fair thing to do , make the workers pay.
    Typical lazy welfare parasite, just wanting working people to pay for their welfare.
    Hey Dumbo , I am working you stupid clown. Just don't have tyo pay NI as I have paid a fortune over 50 years unlike losers like yourself. Go push another pensioner over.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,778
    Welcome to Safer Gambling Week.

    Also, Colder Gambling Week. Wrap up warm!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,017
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    It makes a good case for getting rid of the Triple Lock.

    We all know that it has to go at some point, and its not as if pensioners vote Labour.
    On that basis they're now in the amazingly fortunate position of being able to detriment almost any group of voters that they wish!

    As long as they leave educated public sector workers in London alone, I guess?
    Labour backbenchers won't let them though. How do you get an end to the Triple Lock past Labour MPs?

    The current executive is the weakest I can remember.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,578
    edited 9:03AM
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    It makes a good case for getting rid of the Triple Lock.

    We all know that it has to go at some point, and its not as if pensioners vote Labour.
    Just hike NI and all worries are over , that is the fair thing to do , make the workers pay.
    Typical lazy welfare parasite, just wanting working people to pay for their welfare.
    Hey Dumbo , I am working you stupid clown. Just don't have tyo pay NI as I have paid a fortune over 50 years unlike losers like yourself. Go push another pensioner over.
    Listen knucklehead, so by your own admission you are not on the same tax rate as others.

    And try and get this through your thick skull, but whatever 'fortune' you paid in past decades was already pissed away by your governments then. It was not get set aside to fund today.

    Indeed the taxes you paid then were not enough to cover expenditure then, let alone today, which is why we are burdened with so much interest now.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,364
    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .

    Very funny.

    Trump doesn't want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Trump does want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Indeed, start with OrangeManBad and work backwards, even if he’s exposing child abuse it’s still bad.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,394

    Headlines I never expected to read.

    Trump ‘did not perform sex act on Bill Clinton’, insists Epstein’s brother

    Paedophile financier’s sibling referenced photos of Republican president ‘blowing Bubba’, newly released emails show


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/11/16/trump-did-not-perform-sex-act-bill-clinton-epstein-brother/?recomm_id=146ddaa4-5556-42f1-9139-fd1ade838961

    Trump having a thing for Bill would explain his deep hatred of Hillary.

    Jealousy is a green eyed monster.
    Remember that the Donald has previously donated to Hilary Clinton's election campaign...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,391
    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .

    Very funny.

    Trump doesn't want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Trump does want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Very funny.
    If Trump wanted to release the files, he'd have ordered them released already.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,391
    TOPPING said:

    Shocked face.

    At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows

    Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel


    Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.

    Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/17/at-least-98-palestinians-have-died-in-custody-since-october-2023-israeli-data-shows

    Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
    Why is every response to a report of Israeli wrongdoing a piece of whataboutery ?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,578
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Shocked face.

    At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows

    Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel


    Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.

    Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/17/at-least-98-palestinians-have-died-in-custody-since-october-2023-israeli-data-shows

    Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
    Why is every response to a report of Israeli wrongdoing a piece of whataboutery ?
    Because context matters.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,391

    Headlines I never expected to read.

    Trump ‘did not perform sex act on Bill Clinton’, insists Epstein’s brother

    Paedophile financier’s sibling referenced photos of Republican president ‘blowing Bubba’, newly released emails show


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/11/16/trump-did-not-perform-sex-act-bill-clinton-epstein-brother/?recomm_id=146ddaa4-5556-42f1-9139-fd1ade838961

    True or not, it's given us a great ratio.
    https://x.com/buffys/status/1989532227135254920
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,881
    edited 9:12AM
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .

    Very funny.

    Trump doesn't want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Trump does want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Very funny.
    If Trump wanted to release the files, he'd have ordered them released already.
    Trump doesn’t want to release the files but is being forced to: PB in fit of uproarious laughter.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,394
    On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".

    And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.

    After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.

    There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.

    There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,778
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Still 10 days until the Budget, how many more leaks are we going to get to the media out of the Treasury?

    Is anyone compiling a record of all these leaks (or alleged leaks) so we can play budget day bingo?
    I’m trying to work out what plausible tax change hasn’t been “leaked” so far. Have we had changes to VAT at any point?
    Yes, certainly reducing the threshold for VAT registration has been leaked, along with reducing (!!) the 5 per cent on energy to fight rising electricity prices, and some unspecified tinkering of the sort that led George Osborne to his omnishambles budget. However, across the board rises were ruled out in the manifesto.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,038

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    Yes, if you need to make a change to something major, then own the decision and explain yourself as the government. Instead we’ve appear to have policy making by leaks and opinion polls which ends up wih nothing done, but with huge amounts of political capital lost.

    The “Exit Tax” rumours were on the news in the sandpit last week, people are making decisions that affect government revenue off the back of something with might not even happen. That the idea was even floated is causing emigration planning, loads of us Brits in expatville have had contact from people in the UK in the last couple of weeks.
    The majority of the 10,001 tax proposals floated have been floated by, checks notes, the Telegraph.

    The milkshakes are on me.
    Wouldn’t it be fun if the Treasury have set up the Telegraph by putting out all sorts of stuff which they knew they would print, and then, having subsequently denied the rumours, actually implemented the rumoured tax rises; 2% on Income Tax, etc.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,578

    On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".

    And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.

    After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.

    There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.

    There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...

    It is time to shit or get off the toilet.

    Do what you think needs to be done to balance the budget, or you don't deserve to be in office.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,668
    TOPPING said:

    Shocked face.

    At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows

    Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel


    Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.

    Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/17/at-least-98-palestinians-have-died-in-custody-since-october-2023-israeli-data-shows

    Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
    I am not sure of your point. Although it must be a good one because someone liked it.

    I don't believe anyone here is flying the flag for Hamas who are a lawless death cult. I don't believe the opposition (or lack of it) to Hamas is measurable in terms set out by western opinion pollsters, and the data collection even more sketchy, but who knows?

    I would like to believe that a democratically elected government in a civilised country would operate to a more rigorous set of rules regarding the safety of civilians than Hamas does, and using United Nations guidance, even in the face of a lawless death cult.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,394

    On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".

    And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.

    After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.

    There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.

    There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...

    It is time to shit or get off the toilet.

    Do what you think needs to be done to balance the budget, or you don't deserve to be in office.
    He doesn't know how. Then again, neither do the Tories. We need to drive growth to generate tax revenues. But collectively seem to think that making people have less money in their pocket - cuts and tax rises - will make that happen.

    I blame the Treasury. Liz Truss was right as much as she was bonkers - she turned her guns on the Treasury. She just didn't go far enough.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,017

    On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".

    And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.

    After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.

    There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.

    There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...

    It is time to shit or get off the toilet.

    Do what you think needs to be done to balance the budget, or you don't deserve to be in office.
    I don't think they can. We've seen quite a lot of Labour MPs talk about how important it was to not break the manifesto promises on tax. Just as they failed to make the change to winter fuel allowance stick, and MPs prevented the changes to PIP, I don't think there's a set of tax and spending changes to balance the budget that this PM and Chancellor can make that will pass the PLP.

    This budget will simply be the proof of it. Starmer has to go.

    A new PM will then have one chance - just one - to turn things around.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,990

    On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".

    And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.

    After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.

    There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.

    There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...

    On the subject of toast, I am someone who likes it charcoal black. I once set fire to a Novotel toaster in an effort to get it to go beyond the 'dried bread' anaemia stage (it was the third pass that did for it, as I recall).

    And yes, I know burnt toast is potentially carcinogenic - I limit myself to toast once a fortnight or so.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,561
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Still 10 days until the Budget, how many more leaks are we going to get to the media out of the Treasury?

    I saw one yesterday which was the milkshake tax, a policy of removing the exemption from the Soft Drinks industry levy from milk shake products. It was sucking the bottom of the glass for me.
    What odds that Reeves breaks out in song mid speech?:

    "My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard
    And they're like it's better than yours
    Damn right, it's better than yours
    I could teach you, but I'd have to charge"
    I'd want at least 5/1....
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,017

    On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".

    And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.

    After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.

    There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.

    There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...

    On the subject of toast, I am someone who likes it charcoal black. I once set fire to a Novotel toaster in an effort to get it to go beyond the 'dried bread' anaemia stage (it was the third pass that did for it, as I recall).

    And yes, I know burnt toast is potentially carcinogenic - I limit myself to toast once a fortnight or so.
    I did see a hotel toaster set on fire, but as I recall it was because someone sent a croissant through it, so not you that time.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,567
    edited 9:23AM
    nico67 said:

    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .

    It's easy to overheat a shredder, particularly if you accidentally leave a few staples in.

    If you get it wrong, you can end up forcing the evacuation of a major financial services office, and a resultant bollocking from a senior fire officer. Don't ask me how I know.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,364
    edited 9:20AM

    On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".

    And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.

    After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.

    There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.

    There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...

    It is time to shit or get off the toilet.

    Do what you think needs to be done to balance the budget, or you don't deserve to be in office.
    I don't think they can. We've seen quite a lot of Labour MPs talk about how important it was to not break the manifesto promises on tax. Just as they failed to make the change to winter fuel allowance stick, and MPs prevented the changes to PIP, I don't think there's a set of tax and spending changes to balance the budget that this PM and Chancellor can make that will pass the PLP.

    This budget will simply be the proof of it. Starmer has to go.

    A new PM will then have one chance - just one - to turn things around.
    Imagine the chaos that would ensue if Starmer couldn’t get their turkeys in Parliament to vote for the Christmas budget despite a majority of 150. Could we soon see a large group of former Labour MPs on the Opposition benches?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,668
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .

    Very funny.

    Trump doesn't want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Trump does want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Indeed, start with OrangeManBad and work backwards, even if he’s exposing child abuse it’s still bad.
    This weekend saw the return of the interview with Katie Johnson, and also credible reports that Epstein was furious with one of his friends for indulging in underage penetrative sex with a minor before he got his chance, and the resurfacing of claims by a beauty pageant owner that he could wander through dressing rooms as underage girls were in various stages of undress because he owned the pageant.

    Take your blinkers off!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,990
    edited 9:21AM
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .

    Very funny.

    Trump doesn't want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Trump does want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Indeed, start with OrangeManBad and work backwards, even if he’s exposing child abuse it’s still bad.
    Let's be honest though, no one in their right mind thinks any of this is about Trump exposing child abuse... or doing anything indeed apart from helping Trump.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,568
    Morning all :)

    They are indeed terrible figures for the Prime Minister and Chancellor though I suspect in the current climate any PM and Chancellor would be struggling to achieve anything approaching positive numbers.

    The anti-politician sentiment is running very strong currently though while that makes people feel "better", it's not much use as ultimately the country needs to be governed in some form and, as I've said elsewhere, the problems afflicting us are not the direct fault of any single Government but a culmination of demographic, socio-economic, technological and cultural change unprecdented in recent times.

    People don't react well to changes they don't understand, feel they had no say in and perceive leaves them worse off, more at risk and less comfortable in the society and community they once found familiar.

    It's not the job of political leadership to reverse these changes (many aren't in the fiat of any Government to change easily) but to navigate society through the changes with a degree of empathy and understanding and that's what has been lacking in recent times. It's no use telling people "it's for their own good" if people don't see it that way and whether the sentiment is Luddite or anti-immigrant, there will be pushback against those changes which don't work or seem to work.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,990

    On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".

    And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.

    After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.

    There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.

    There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...

    On the subject of toast, I am someone who likes it charcoal black. I once set fire to a Novotel toaster in an effort to get it to go beyond the 'dried bread' anaemia stage (it was the third pass that did for it, as I recall).

    And yes, I know burnt toast is potentially carcinogenic - I limit myself to toast once a fortnight or so.
    I did see a hotel toaster set on fire, but as I recall it was because someone sent a croissant through it, so not you that time.
    Good grief what a heathen - a croissant in a toaster!

    As I regularly stayed at this Novotel they amusingly allocated a minder to keep an eye on me at breakfast for weeks after.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,280

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    It makes a good case for getting rid of the Triple Lock.

    We all know that it has to go at some point, and its not as if pensioners vote Labour.
    Just hike NI and all worries are over , that is the fair thing to do , make the workers pay.
    Typical lazy welfare parasite, just wanting working people to pay for their welfare.
    Hey Dumbo , I am working you stupid clown. Just don't have tyo pay NI as I have paid a fortune over 50 years unlike losers like yourself. Go push another pensioner over.
    Listen knucklehead, so by your own admission you are not on the same tax rate as others.

    And try and get this through your thick skull, but whatever 'fortune' you paid in past decades was already pissed away by your governments then. It was not get set aside to fund today.

    Indeed the taxes you paid then were not enough to cover expenditure then, let alone today, which is why we are burdened with so much interest now.
    I pay higher rate and get no tax allowance , how cretinous can you be. Fact those bozos are almost as dumb as you and unable to balance the books does not mean I should pay twice.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,364
    edited 9:26AM

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .

    Very funny.

    Trump doesn't want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Trump does want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Indeed, start with OrangeManBad and work backwards, even if he’s exposing child abuse it’s still bad.
    Let's be honest though, no one in their right mind thinks any of this is about Trump exposing child abuse... or doing anything indeed apart from helping Trump.
    Oh of course, but it’s funny to see nearly everyone do a 180 on the subject depending on what the president’s last comment on it happened to be.

    Democrats in the US had almost nothing to say on Epstein for years, until they sensed a split within the Republicans.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,391
    This is an interesting detail.

    https://observer.co.uk/news/national/article/boardroom-dramas-backstabbing-and-the-bbcs-darkest-hour
    ..“It was a small, big problem,” one senior executive says. Small because it was not the Iraq war or Jimmy Savile; big because it involved Donald Trump and because an important principle was at stake. Even if no one outside the BBC had complained about the edit – and they had not – the BBC knew at the turn of 2025 that it had made a mistake, and it should have been willing to admit it, unprompted.
    But in the room at the EGSC, although some people were troubled by what they had learned, no one suggested going public. And almost everyone who was anyone was there – among them Tim Davie, Samir Shah, Deborah Turness, her deputy Jonathan Munro, Robbie Gibb and Michael Prescott. Recollections vary about how long they spent talking about Panorama, but nobody thinks it was more than five minutes: “It didn’t strike any of us at that time as a significant issue. And that’s maybe where the whole thing began to unravel. Nobody left the room thinking, ‘Oh my god, we’ve got a real problem with Panorama.’ It just wasn’t like that.”
    So the edit was treated as a moment for internal “learnings”, not for public acknowledgment...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,561

    Headlines I never expected to read.

    Trump ‘did not perform sex act on Bill Clinton’, insists Epstein’s brother

    Paedophile financier’s sibling referenced photos of Republican president ‘blowing Bubba’, newly released emails show


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/11/16/trump-did-not-perform-sex-act-bill-clinton-epstein-brother/?recomm_id=146ddaa4-5556-42f1-9139-fd1ade838961

    Trump having a thing for Bill would explain his deep hatred of Hillary.

    Jealousy is a green eyed monster.
    Would be funny though if Bill Clinton put out a press release saying "Yes. I did have sexual relations with that man." No-one would know if it was real, but it would cause MAGA heads to explode regardless. Then Trump would have to put out a press release "I did not have sexual relations with that man." Which would be a rioutous end to his hold over the electorate....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,599
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Shocked face.

    At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows

    Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel


    Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.

    Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/17/at-least-98-palestinians-have-died-in-custody-since-october-2023-israeli-data-shows

    Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
    Why is every response to a report of Israeli wrongdoing a piece of whataboutery ?
    Do you think the Arabs should have recognised Israel (and the Two-State Solution) back in 1948?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,428
    edited 9:32AM
    As any advertiser will tell you when a brand is trashed it is very difficult to un-trash it. 'New' or 'improved' can help if the brand is just tired or a USP that catches on. But the brand really has to show it's changed and usually there's a time gap......

    I'm not sure that the Labour brand is beyond repair. We all need a political party so if it's not Labour it has to be another one. The question is therefore what would make it look 'new' and 'improved'? Forget new logos. That won't work and it's been done.

    So first find out what people like about your brand looking for USPs. I'd say -compassion- honesty- equality- more promotion of women- history -they started the NHS-anti racism- etc .

    Then what people don't like. Current leadership seem uncaring. Decision making opaque.Incompetence at the top.....

    Then the solutions become more obvious

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,668
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .

    Very funny.

    Trump doesn't want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Trump does want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Indeed, start with OrangeManBad and work backwards, even if he’s exposing child abuse it’s still bad.
    Let's be honest though, no one in their right mind thinks any of this is about Trump exposing child abuse... or doing anything indeed apart from helping Trump.
    Oh of course, but it’s funny to see nearly everyone do a 180 on the subject depending on what the president’s last comment on it happened to be.

    Democrats in the US had almost nothing to say on Epstein for years, until they sensed a split within the Republicans.
    I suspect if the Dems had been more proactive regarding the Epstein files Trump would not have been elected President again.

    You probably have a point that the Dems were protecting their own by their inaction, but that doesn't absolve Trump of anything.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,526
    Well Starmer doesn't need to worry about Reeves replacing him then. While Reeves may not increase income tax next week she is still likely to attend least increase the thresholds and increase tax on expensive properties
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,084

    On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".

    And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.

    After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.

    There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.

    There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...

    On the subject of toast, I am someone who likes it charcoal black. I once set fire to a Novotel toaster in an effort to get it to go beyond the 'dried bread' anaemia stage (it was the third pass that did for it, as I recall).

    And yes, I know burnt toast is potentially carcinogenic - I limit myself to toast once a fortnight or so.
    I did see a hotel toaster set on fire, but as I recall it was because someone sent a croissant through it, so not you that time.
    I recall a fellow student making cheese on toast in a toaster. I imagine this is how Sir Isaac Newton discovered gravity.
    First week at uni I had to explain to someone that would couldn't just microwave an unopened jar of pasta sauce.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,568
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump says vote to release the Epstein files .

    Knowing that the sham investigation into Clinton and other Democrats will mean that they can’t be released.

    This sudden change of heart from Trump should fool no one .

    Very funny.

    Trump doesn't want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Trump does want to release the files: PB in uproar
    Indeed, start with OrangeManBad and work backwards, even if he’s exposing child abuse it’s still bad.
    Let's be honest though, no one in their right mind thinks any of this is about Trump exposing child abuse... or doing anything indeed apart from helping Trump.
    Oh of course, but it’s funny to see nearly everyone do a 180 on the subject depending on what the president’s last comment on it happened to be.

    Democrats in the US had almost nothing to say on Epstein for years, until they sensed a split within the Republicans.
    Seriously?

    Politicians are opportunists par excellence. If they see a weakness in their opponent, they go full throttle. Look at how everyone jumped on what was basically a triviality from Angela Rayner and forced her from office and it was the same in the Conservative years when MInisters would be dismissed or forced to resign or what were sometimes (not always) minor infractions.

    You don't go into politics to get a sense of proportion and perspective - you go into politics to lose it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,017
    Sandpit said:

    On topic - the budget is already sinking and there is a week and a half to go. They have managed to get to an extraordinary position where whatever they unveil, the response from political wonks will be "is that it?" and the response from market wonks will be "don't like that".

    And so the recriminations. I'm on record saying McSweeney will the first up against the wall, gone by the 2nd week of December as the budget fallout gets brutal.

    After that? Starmer is toast. The kind of toast where you're desperately scraping it with your knife to try and save it, but knowing in your heart that you will still be able to taste the burn.

    There won't be a general election before 2029, so we have to put up with this shit. So let's hope someone with some nous and some vision comes forward or we truly will be sunk.

    There is a model that the government could adopt - the miracle of Manchester. This has been a 30 year turnaround so its not all on Burnham, but as the metro mayor he knows what works and how to get significant changes done effectively. Shift Gwynne aside and get him into parliament. Whilst there is still time...

    It is time to shit or get off the toilet.

    Do what you think needs to be done to balance the budget, or you don't deserve to be in office.
    I don't think they can. We've seen quite a lot of Labour MPs talk about how important it was to not break the manifesto promises on tax. Just as they failed to make the change to winter fuel allowance stick, and MPs prevented the changes to PIP, I don't think there's a set of tax and spending changes to balance the budget that this PM and Chancellor can make that will pass the PLP.

    This budget will simply be the proof of it. Starmer has to go.

    A new PM will then have one chance - just one - to turn things around.
    Imagine the chaos that would ensue if Starmer couldn’t get their turkeys in Parliament to vote for the Christmas budget despite a majority of 150. Could we soon see a large group of former Labour MPs on the Opposition benches?
    I wouldn't expect that to happen because Starmer/Reeves will fold to opposition from their backbenches. It would simply mean that the budget would have to be hastily revised to pass the Commons.

    I think there's an evens chance that there will be something left in the budget that the backbenches won't stomach, and that Reeves will have to backtrack on. Backbench Labour MPs have forced the executive to back down before, they have a taste for it now, and the new deputy leader is a standard bearer they can rally around - as she's not in the Cabinet and is elected deputy leader she can oppose the government with impunity. Starmer can hardly remove the Labour whip from the deputy leader.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,990
    edited 9:33AM
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:
    That article argues that if you're going to suffer unpopularity, you might as well do something significant and worthwhile, that either delivers or allows you to afford some big compensating wins elsewhere. That is the argument for the 2p tax rise that almost woz.....
    It makes a good case for getting rid of the Triple Lock.

    We all know that it has to go at some point, and its not as if pensioners vote Labour.
    Just hike NI and all worries are over , that is the fair thing to do , make the workers pay.
    Typical lazy welfare parasite, just wanting working people to pay for their welfare.
    Hey Dumbo , I am working you stupid clown. Just don't have tyo pay NI as I have paid a fortune over 50 years unlike losers like yourself. Go push another pensioner over.
    Listen knucklehead, so by your own admission you are not on the same tax rate as others.

    And try and get this through your thick skull, but whatever 'fortune' you paid in past decades was already pissed away by your governments then. It was not get set aside to fund today.

    Indeed the taxes you paid then were not enough to cover expenditure then, let alone today, which is why we are burdened with so much interest now.
    I pay higher rate and get no tax allowance , how cretinous can you be. Fact those bozos are almost as dumb as you and unable to balance the books does not mean I should pay twice.
    Great insult and counter-insult from Dumbo and Knucklehead there. Brightened my day at least.

    (For what it's worth, I'm with Dumbo on this one; sorry Knucklehead.)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,334
    TOPPING said:

    Shocked face.

    At least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, Israeli data shows

    Exclusive: Real toll likely substantially higher as hundreds of detainees from Gaza are missing, says NGO Physicians for Human Rights - Israel


    Israeli data shows at least 98 Palestinians have died in custody since October 2023, and the real toll is likely substantially higher because hundreds of people detained in Gaza are missing, an Israel-based human rights group has said.

    Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHRI) tracked deaths from causes including physical violence, medical neglect and malnutrition for a new report, using freedom of information requests, forensic reports and interviews with lawyers, activists, relatives and witnesses.

    Israeli authorities only provided comprehensive data for the first eight months of the war. Over this period official figures show an unprecedented casualty rate among Palestinian detainees, on average one death every four days.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/17/at-least-98-palestinians-have-died-in-custody-since-october-2023-israeli-data-shows

    Isn't it wonderful how such a diverse and tolerant society as Israel can include groups such as this, who disagree with the government's actions and call them out when they occur. Reminds me of that group in Gaza which does the same thing and campaigns against Hamas. What was its name, again? It eludes me. I'm sure it is on the tip of your tongue.
    Something something Hiroshima, fire bombing of Dresden, Stalin's camps, something something
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