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Crime & Constraints – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,754
edited October 27 in General
Crime & Constraints – politicalbetting.com

The story is a simple one: a man is a factory manager, and things are going badly, and they’re going badly because the factory isn’t efficient, and all the things he thinks increase efficiency decrease it.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,705
    edited October 27
    First?

    Edit: Oh yes!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,743
    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,647
    I suspect the Justice department would scream interferring if the PM said fix the courts.

    But you would have thought SKS could grasp where the problem was - in October 2025 we shouldn't be scheduling criminal cases in 2028..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597
    An excellent header, though.

    One other point you could add - the deterrent effect of criminal justice is severely diluted when it takes multiple years to bring cases to court.
    And it demoralises law enforcement.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,029
    ...
    Nigelb said:

    Uninterested, not disinterested, surely ?

    I just deleted my post on that because I thought I was being petty.

    :D
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,772
    Prisoners on remand, that is time served, so given that a large proportion of those will end up with a custodial sentence then the overload is only the proportion that aren't convicted or given a custodial sentence less than they've already served.
    It is still scandalous, but less than the 20% in increased demand
    The big problem is the number of cases that fail due to the increased delays.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,498
    Debottlenecking? You had to read the book three times to understand that concept?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Uninterested, not disinterested, surely ?

    I just deleted my post on that because I thought I was being petty.

    :D
    It's a far more consequential solecism than the American spellings which exercise you.

    Fair cop, though.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,371
    Good article @rcs1000 , thank you
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,356
    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    As is pretty much everyone else.

    Looked at the right way, with the right information, rate limiting steps are a really powerful tool. We would get better outcomes by shifting resources from police and prisons to the court system.

    Trouble is that we like the vibes of having more police. We like the vibes of locking people up. The court system- rather less so. That's just overpaid lawyers trying to get wrong'uns off.

    It would be great if we had a political system with the pedagogic skills to explain this. We don't, and haven't had for ages- if ever.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,712
    @Theuniondivvie many thanks for you kind words at this dreadful time. Nobody needs to hear Lilly Alan at any time but especially not early in the morning after a sleepless painful night.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597
    Since Ken Clarke, the list of Justice Secretaries includes Grayling, Truss, and Raab (twice).

    The only ones in post for more than a year were Grayling and Buckland.

    Thats how seriously the Tories took the office.

    Can Starmer do better ?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,519
    Dopermean said:

    Prisoners on remand, that is time served, so given that a large proportion of those will end up with a custodial sentence then the overload is only the proportion that aren't convicted or given a custodial sentence less than they've already served.
    It is still scandalous, but less than the 20% in increased demand
    The big problem is the number of cases that fail due to the increased delays.

    The big problem is that it encourages low-level crime which is seen to have no adverse consequences for the baddies, thus tempting more in. This is either because governments decriminalise low-level crime or because any court dates are too far in the future to be linked with any wrongdoing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,074

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    As is pretty much everyone else.

    Looked at the right way, with the right information, rate limiting steps are a really powerful tool. We would get better outcomes by shifting resources from police and prisons to the court system.

    Trouble is that we like the vibes of having more police. We like the vibes of locking people up. The court system- rather less so. That's just overpaid lawyers trying to get wrong'uns off.

    It would be great if we had a political system with the pedagogic skills to explain this. We don't, and haven't had for ages- if ever.
    Legal aid lawyers overpaid? They start on minimum wage and often earn under £50k even ten years into practice. Even criminal KCs, prosecutors as well as defence at most will earn about £200 000 for advocating in murder trials while their counterparts in magic circle corporate law firms who are partners or KCs doing commercial work will often earn millions
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    As is pretty much everyone else.

    Looked at the right way, with the right information, rate limiting steps are a really powerful tool. We would get better outcomes by shifting resources from police and prisons to the court system.

    Trouble is that we like the vibes of having more police. We like the vibes of locking people up. The court system- rather less so. That's just overpaid lawyers trying to get wrong'uns off.

    It would be great if we had a political system with the pedagogic skills to explain this. We don't, and haven't had for ages- if ever.
    See also, with knobs on, asylum application processing, and the immigration courts backlog.
  • ...

    Nigelb said:

    Uninterested, not disinterested, surely ?

    I just deleted my post on that because I thought I was being petty.

    :D
    The criminal justice system may be failing but here on PB the Pedantry Police are as vigilant as ever.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    Uninterested, not disinterested, surely ?

    I just deleted my post on that because I thought I was being petty.

    :D
    The criminal justice system may be failing but here on PB the Pedantry Police are as vigilant as ever.
    The law requires precision in language.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,767
    edited October 27
    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597
    Graham says lawmakers to be briefed on potential Venezuela land attack
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5574094-trump-military-action-latin-america/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,705
    If each case took half as long in court, twice as many could be processed.

    So how can trials be accelerated?

    What are the faffing about bits that can be dealt with to offer quick wins?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,519
    From header:
    At the end of September 2019, the open caseload in the Ministry of Justice (Crown Court) was about 38,000 cases. By September 2024, it had more than doubled, rising to 73,105 open cases.

    Who'd have thought two months of a Labour government could make so much difference?

    Extracts posted the other day reminds us earlier governments had their dabs all over it:-

    ‘The police weren’t interested’:...
    ...
    Theresa May’s decision to axe 21,000 police officers while she was home secretary.
    ...
    Between 2010 and 2014, after the coalition government ordered the MoJ to slash its budget by almost a quarter, the CPS lost 22% of its solicitors and 28% of its barristers. From 2010 to 2019, the MoJ closed more than half of all the courts in England and Wales, and sold off many court buildings. There are now almost 400,000 criminal cases waiting to be heard in England and Wales.
    ...
    the coalition government’s decision to make stealing goods under £200 into a “summary offence”, which carry shorter sentences, had effectively given criminals a free pass. “These thieves aren’t stupid,” said Neville, the former Met detective. “Why nick £200 when you can nick £199 five times?”

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/ng-interactive/2025/oct/23/the-police-werent-interested-whats-driving-the-rise-in-private-prosecutions

    (H/t Eric Sykes)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,649
    Nigelb said:

    Graham says lawmakers to be briefed on potential Venezuela land attack
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5574094-trump-military-action-latin-america/

    I’m guessing the lawmakers won’t have to bother their pretty little heads about any laws attached to Trump’s briefing.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,333
    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,498

    Nigelb said:

    Graham says lawmakers to be briefed on potential Venezuela land attack
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5574094-trump-military-action-latin-america/

    I’m guessing the lawmakers won’t have to bother their pretty little heads about any laws attached to Trump’s briefing.
    Wouldn’t congress have to be recalled to brief them?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,519
    Nigelb said:

    Graham says lawmakers to be briefed on potential Venezuela land attack
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5574094-trump-military-action-latin-america/

    Potential Venezuela land attack, abbreviated SMO.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,200
    Nigelb said:

    An excellent header, though.

    One other point you could add - the deterrent effect of criminal justice is severely diluted when it takes multiple years to bring cases to court.
    And it demoralises law enforcement.

    Equally, your life is put on hold until you have the opportunity to clear your name if innocent.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,755
    I worked for a GM who made all his management read the goal and ran the factory based on constraint theory.

    Worked pretty well too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,200
    Nigelb said:

    Graham says lawmakers to be briefed on potential Venezuela land attack
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5574094-trump-military-action-latin-america/

    Greenland breathes a sigh of relief.

    Unless its a feint....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,051

    Nigelb said:

    Graham says lawmakers to be briefed on potential Venezuela land attack
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5574094-trump-military-action-latin-america/

    Potential Venezuela land attack, abbreviated SMO.
    Guyana would probably be pleased if Maduro fell to the Americans, and his acquisitive eyeing of newfound Guyanan (Guyanese?) oil fields came to nought.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,356
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    As is pretty much everyone else.

    Looked at the right way, with the right information, rate limiting steps are a really powerful tool. We would get better outcomes by shifting resources from police and prisons to the court system.

    Trouble is that we like the vibes of having more police. We like the vibes of locking people up. The court system- rather less so. That's just overpaid lawyers trying to get wrong'uns off.

    It would be great if we had a political system with the pedagogic skills to explain this. We don't, and haven't had for ages- if ever.
    Legal aid lawyers overpaid? They start on minimum wage and often earn under £50k even ten years into practice. Even criminal KCs, prosecutors as well as defence at most will earn about £200 000 for advocating in murder trials while their counterparts in magic circle corporate law firms who are partners or KCs doing commercial work will often earn millions
    You're talking reality, I'm talking vibes. One of the differences between government and politics. Many voters will resent paying lawyers £50k, let alone £200k. See also: all the other white collar public sector staff.

    "You can't buck the market", as our last pedagogic PM once said. That so many voters still want policies that depend on bucking the market shows the limits of the "politician as teacher" approach.
  • ajbajb Posts: 167
    In the spirit of "5 whys", why doesn't Starmer see this as a priority? Or worth solving?

    Frankly I think we are also suffering from the talent pool that we chose our leaders from being extraordinarily meagre. I can think of a few reasons:
    * Being a politician is a rubbish job compared to being an executive or media personality.
    * The media environment favours narcissists and bullshitters
    * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic sector
    * Centralisation of power in Westminster means that there are few opportunities to get practice wielding real power on a smaller scale, and gain a reputation for competence, instead the ambitious focus on gaining access to back room in-groups and honing their talent for manipulation and intrigue.

    This last is the only one where there is a change to be made which is relatively obvious (to me at least). But even that would be a slow process.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,519

    If each case took half as long in court, twice as many could be processed.

    So how can trials be accelerated?

    What are the faffing about bits that can be dealt with to offer quick wins?

    Pre-sentence reports, victim statements, and mitigations could all be postponed till after sentencing and left to the Parole Board or a new body that could vary sentences either functionally or actually.

    For murders committed by obvious fruitloops, skip the trial and initial six months in prison before moving offenders to secure psychiatric units.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,051
    ajb said:

    In the spirit of "5 whys", why doesn't Starmer see this as a priority? Or worth solving?

    Frankly I think we are also suffering from the talent pool that we chose our leaders from being extraordinarily meagre. I can think of a few reasons:
    * Being a politician is a rubbish job compared to being an executive or media personality.
    * The media environment favours narcissists and bullshitters
    * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic sector
    * Centralisation of power in Westminster means that there are few opportunities to get practice wielding real power on a smaller scale, and gain a reputation for competence, instead the ambitious focus on gaining access to back room in-groups and honing their talent for manipulation and intrigue.

    This last is the only one where there is a change to be made which is relatively obvious (to me at least). But even that would be a slow process.

    " * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic[sp] sector"

    Hmm. I can't ever remember a call to go out on your doorstep and applaud any private sector organisation. I think views of 'the public sector' vary wildly, from the unhealthy idolatry towards the NHS, to less charitable views of general bureaucracy.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,705
    ajb said:

    In the spirit of "5 whys", why doesn't Starmer see this as a priority? Or worth solving?

    Frankly I think we are also suffering from the talent pool that we chose our leaders from being extraordinarily meagre. I can think of a few reasons:
    * Being a politician is a rubbish job compared to being an executive or media personality.
    * The media environment favours narcissists and bullshitters
    * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic sector
    * Centralisation of power in Westminster means that there are few opportunities to get practice wielding real power on a smaller scale, and gain a reputation for competence, instead the ambitious focus on gaining access to back room in-groups and honing their talent for manipulation and intrigue.

    This last is the only one where there is a change to be made which is relatively obvious (to me at least). But even that would be a slow process.

    Regarding your last bullet point - Metro Mayors. Andy Burnham being the archetype. Apparently.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,647
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
    Yes HS2 would eventually reveal new bottlenecks but x million more people could travel.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,519
    ajb said:

    In the spirit of "5 whys", why doesn't Starmer see this as a priority? Or worth solving?

    Frankly I think we are also suffering from the talent pool that we chose our leaders from being extraordinarily meagre. I can think of a few reasons:
    * Being a politician is a rubbish job compared to being an executive or media personality.
    * The media environment favours narcissists and bullshitters
    * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic sector
    * Centralisation of power in Westminster means that there are few opportunities to get practice wielding real power on a smaller scale, and gain a reputation for competence, instead the ambitious focus on gaining access to back room in-groups and honing their talent for manipulation and intrigue.

    This last is the only one where there is a change to be made which is relatively obvious (to me at least). But even that would be a slow process.

    Combining councils is all the rage at the moment, just don't call it centralisation.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,413

    ajb said:

    In the spirit of "5 whys", why doesn't Starmer see this as a priority? Or worth solving?

    Frankly I think we are also suffering from the talent pool that we chose our leaders from being extraordinarily meagre. I can think of a few reasons:
    * Being a politician is a rubbish job compared to being an executive or media personality.
    * The media environment favours narcissists and bullshitters
    * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic sector
    * Centralisation of power in Westminster means that there are few opportunities to get practice wielding real power on a smaller scale, and gain a reputation for competence, instead the ambitious focus on gaining access to back room in-groups and honing their talent for manipulation and intrigue.

    This last is the only one where there is a change to be made which is relatively obvious (to me at least). But even that would be a slow process.

    " * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic[sp] sector"

    Hmm. I can't ever remember a call to go out on your doorstep and applaud any private sector organisation. I think views of 'the public sector' vary wildly, from the unhealthy idolatry towards the NHS, to less charitable views of general bureaucracy.
    It seems that ajb has never read the Guardian.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,498

    Nigelb said:

    Graham says lawmakers to be briefed on potential Venezuela land attack
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5574094-trump-military-action-latin-america/

    Greenland breathes a sigh of relief.

    Unless its a feint....
    Venezuela’s got jungles right? That makes it pretty green… land?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,836
    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    Or in manufacturing - Queuing Theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

    Here's the scenario. In order to get people who actually understand what's needed to be done, you have to hire people who actually understand what's needed to be done. This requires knowing the issues in the first place. If you can't measure, you can't control. Then you have to pay for the skills.

    Let's come back to "knowing" what are the problem? You introduce targets and measures and you get push back or the Daily Mail complaining about box tickers.

    And paying for skills? Daily Mail and others rejecting 'gold plated inflation-linked' salaries. So you get the muddlers who muddle along.

    Basically we get what we want which is muddling along from crisis to crisis as it sells newspapers etc. Who wants trains to run on time like the Swiss?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,767
    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
    Yes HS2 would eventually reveal new bottlenecks but x million more people could travel.
    Yes, and the trick (as outlined in Robert’s recommended reading) is to always keep hammering at the next bottleneck.

    Eventually you got to the point of needing a major project such as HS2 or M40, but most of the work is done with junctions and pinch points such as bridges or tunnels.

    Sometimes you need an M6 toll, as a 10-mile viaduct through the middle of a major city is an unfixable problem.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,649

    ajb said:

    In the spirit of "5 whys", why doesn't Starmer see this as a priority? Or worth solving?

    Frankly I think we are also suffering from the talent pool that we chose our leaders from being extraordinarily meagre. I can think of a few reasons:
    * Being a politician is a rubbish job compared to being an executive or media personality.
    * The media environment favours narcissists and bullshitters
    * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic sector
    * Centralisation of power in Westminster means that there are few opportunities to get practice wielding real power on a smaller scale, and gain a reputation for competence, instead the ambitious focus on gaining access to back room in-groups and honing their talent for manipulation and intrigue.

    This last is the only one where there is a change to be made which is relatively obvious (to me at least). But even that would be a slow process.

    " * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic[sp] sector"

    Hmm. I can't ever remember a call to go out on your doorstep and applaud any private sector organisation. I think views of 'the public sector' vary wildly, from the unhealthy idolatry towards the NHS, to less charitable views of general bureaucracy.
    And under a (nominally) Conservative government too!

    I fear entreaties to give Dyson, Sugar and that tosser plumber guy a round of applause may fall on deaf ears, though the media more than make up for any deficiencies of public fawning.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Graham says lawmakers to be briefed on potential Venezuela land attack
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5574094-trump-military-action-latin-america/

    I’m guessing the lawmakers won’t have to bother their pretty little heads about any laws attached to Trump’s briefing.
    Wouldn’t congress have to be recalled to brief them?
    It's the Senate, not the House that gets briefed.

    And as far as constraints are concerned, the GOP voted down a Democratic resolution in the Senate which would have required Trump to seek Congressional authorisation for the use of military force against Venezuela.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,755
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
    Yes HS2 would eventually reveal new bottlenecks but x million more people could travel.
    Yes, and the trick (as outlined in Robert’s recommended reading) is to always keep hammering at the next bottleneck.

    Eventually you got to the point of needing a major project such as HS2 or M40, but most of the work is done with junctions and pinch points such as bridges or tunnels.

    Sometimes you need an M6 toll, as a 10-mile viaduct through the middle of a major city is an unfixable problem.
    Exactly. Squeezing a constraint is not a single issue, it’s a journey where you move from bottleneck to bottleneck alleviating them.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,356

    ajb said:

    In the spirit of "5 whys", why doesn't Starmer see this as a priority? Or worth solving?

    Frankly I think we are also suffering from the talent pool that we chose our leaders from being extraordinarily meagre. I can think of a few reasons:
    * Being a politician is a rubbish job compared to being an executive or media personality.
    * The media environment favours narcissists and bullshitters
    * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic sector
    * Centralisation of power in Westminster means that there are few opportunities to get practice wielding real power on a smaller scale, and gain a reputation for competence, instead the ambitious focus on gaining access to back room in-groups and honing their talent for manipulation and intrigue.

    This last is the only one where there is a change to be made which is relatively obvious (to me at least). But even that would be a slow process.

    Regarding your last bullet point - Metro Mayors. Andy Burnham being the archetype. Apparently.
    And before that, Boris Johnson.

    Trouble is, real power means having control of all the levers. At the moment, Mayors have some control over where they spend, but very little over the total, because they don't have much control over taxes. Instead, it's mostly about government grants.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,400
    ajb said:

    In the spirit of "5 whys", why doesn't Starmer see this as a priority? Or worth solving?

    Frankly I think we are also suffering from the talent pool that we chose our leaders from being extraordinarily meagre. I can think of a few reasons:
    * Being a politician is a rubbish job compared to being an executive or media personality.
    * The media environment favours narcissists and bullshitters
    * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic sector
    * Centralisation of power in Westminster means that there are few opportunities to get practice wielding real power on a smaller scale, and gain a reputation for competence, instead the ambitious focus on gaining access to back room in-groups and honing their talent for manipulation and intrigue.

    This last is the only one where there is a change to be made which is relatively obvious (to me at least). But even that would be a slow process.

    Except that our political system doesn't allow people to gain power outside Westminster. In any sensible system, Mark Drakeford*, Andy Burnham and maybe Sadiq Khan would have been offered cabinet roles last July.

    *He's quite old and I assumed he wanted to retire. But apparently not as I think he is now Finance Secretary.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,333
    edited October 27
    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
    Yes HS2 would eventually reveal new bottlenecks but x million more people could travel.
    Absolutely - I'm just pointing out that sometimes the investment might be better focussed, particularly for private car travel which generates much of the congestion in our towns and cities.

    If LA had spent their cash on a proper public transport system rather than constantly adding more lanes, you'd have much less vehicle traffic, more room for housing etc etc.

    I'm a big fan of HS2, but there is an opportunity cost there of £100 billion on trams and buses which would have probably delivered a much better BCR (but only in the north of England, so I can see why that wasn't attractive...).
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,755
    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
    Yes HS2 would eventually reveal new bottlenecks but x million more people could travel.
    Absolutely - I'm just pointing out that sometimes the investment might be better focussed, particularly for private car travel which generates much of the congestion in our towns and cities.

    If LA had spent their cash on a proper public transport system rather than constantly adding more lanes, you'd have much less vehicle traffic, more room for housing etc etc.

    I'm a big fan of HS2, but there is an opportunity cost there of £100 billion on trams and buses which would have probably delivered a much better BCR (but only in the north of England, so I can see why that wasn't attractive...).
    Making Brum a suburb of London was far more desirable to the Westminster mindset.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,479
    The Netherlands votes on Wednesday.

    The latest IPSOS poll (fieldwork 23/10 and 24/10) has the PVV on 17% , the Labour.Green electoral alliance on 15%, D66 (I used to think of them as the Dutch equivalent of the LDs) on 14% and the Christian Democrats on 13%.

    The seat projection (changes from the 2023 election):

    PVV: 26 (-11)
    Labour/Green: 23 (-2)
    D66: 22 (+13)
    Christian Democrats: 20 (+15)
    VVD: 16 (-8)
    JA21: 12 (+11)
    Other Parties: 31 (+1)
    NSC: 0 (-19)

    That's what you might call a bit of an upheaval. Basically, not a bad result for the battered old centrists in all honesty. The further reduction of the VVD notwithstanding, Rutte governed a coalition of the VVD, D66 and the CDA (Christian Democrats) and that that would have 58 seats. Could we get a D66 Prime Minister for the first time?

    Could Pechtold negotiate a majority coalition with the Labour/Greens offering support as well as some of the minor parties? Interesting times ahead.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,767
    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    Or in manufacturing - Queuing Theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

    In project management, it’s called Critical Path Methodology, which will be familiar to anyone who’s done the PMP course.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_path_method

    Interesting that different disciplines have their own terminology for what’s basically the same idea, that there’s always one point that dictates the speed of the whole process.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    Graham says lawmakers to be briefed on potential Venezuela land attack
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5574094-trump-military-action-latin-america/

    I’m guessing the lawmakers won’t have to bother their pretty little heads about any laws attached to Trump’s briefing.
    Wouldn’t congress have to be recalled to brief them?
    It's the Senate, not the House that gets briefed.

    And as far as constraints are concerned, the GOP voted down a Democratic resolution in the Senate which would have required Trump to seek Congressional authorisation for the use of military force against Venezuela.
    To be more accurate, Republicans Rand Paul and Lisa Murkowski voted with the Democrats, and Fetterman voted with the GOP (as did Susan Collins, while expressing concern).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597
    I quite liked Nick Robinson's interview approach this morning with the minister.
    "I'll make you a deal. I'll let you tell me why the last government is to blame, if you'll then tell me how you're going to sort it out."
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,649

    ajb said:

    In the spirit of "5 whys", why doesn't Starmer see this as a priority? Or worth solving?

    Frankly I think we are also suffering from the talent pool that we chose our leaders from being extraordinarily meagre. I can think of a few reasons:
    * Being a politician is a rubbish job compared to being an executive or media personality.
    * The media environment favours narcissists and bullshitters
    * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic sector
    * Centralisation of power in Westminster means that there are few opportunities to get practice wielding real power on a smaller scale, and gain a reputation for competence, instead the ambitious focus on gaining access to back room in-groups and honing their talent for manipulation and intrigue.

    This last is the only one where there is a change to be made which is relatively obvious (to me at least). But even that would be a slow process.

    Except that our political system doesn't allow people to gain power outside Westminster. In any sensible system, Mark Drakeford*, Andy Burnham and maybe Sadiq Khan would have been offered cabinet roles last July.

    *He's quite old and I assumed he wanted to retire. But apparently not as I think he is now Finance Secretary.
    That would probably be a healthy move though far too revolutionary for the atrophied UK. Getting rid of the post of SoS for the component nations (or territories as Mordaunt would have it) of the UK, excluding England, might also help.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,400
    edited October 27
    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
    Yes HS2 would eventually reveal new bottlenecks but x million more people could travel.
    Absolutely - I'm just pointing out that sometimes the investment might be better focussed, particularly for private car travel which generates much of the congestion in our towns and cities.

    If LA had spent their cash on a proper public transport system rather than constantly adding more lanes, you'd have much less vehicle traffic, more room for housing etc etc.

    I'm a big fan of HS2, but there is an opportunity cost there of £100 billion on trams and buses which would have probably delivered a much better BCR (but only in the north of England, so I can see why that wasn't attractive...).
    There's a lot of the South that needs better public transport, and councils completely uninterested in it (not casting any aspersions, but Hampshire). There are a lot of unemployed people who find themselves living somewhere without good public transport but unable to drive or afford a car. Even if there is public transport it might be so limited that you can't get to work unless you work strictly 9-5 Mon-Fri. Demographics include teenagers whose parents can't give them a lift to work, mostly female victims of marital breakup, people who lose their jobs and either company car or can't pay the lease, people in "affordable" housing plonked into swanky estates, people with medical conditions that mean they can't drive.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,400

    ajb said:

    In the spirit of "5 whys", why doesn't Starmer see this as a priority? Or worth solving?

    Frankly I think we are also suffering from the talent pool that we chose our leaders from being extraordinarily meagre. I can think of a few reasons:
    * Being a politician is a rubbish job compared to being an executive or media personality.
    * The media environment favours narcissists and bullshitters
    * We've had decades of lionizing the private sector and demonizing the pubic sector
    * Centralisation of power in Westminster means that there are few opportunities to get practice wielding real power on a smaller scale, and gain a reputation for competence, instead the ambitious focus on gaining access to back room in-groups and honing their talent for manipulation and intrigue.

    This last is the only one where there is a change to be made which is relatively obvious (to me at least). But even that would be a slow process.

    Except that our political system doesn't allow people to gain power outside Westminster. In any sensible system, Mark Drakeford*, Andy Burnham and maybe Sadiq Khan would have been offered cabinet roles last July.

    *He's quite old and I assumed he wanted to retire. But apparently not as I think he is now Finance Secretary.
    That would probably be a healthy move though far too revolutionary for the atrophied UK. Getting rid of the post of SoS for the component nations (or territories as Mordaunt would have it) of the UK, excluding England, might also help.
    Indeed. If there needs to be a SoS for legal reasons, appoint the First Minister as a sinecure.
  • Simon_PeachSimon_Peach Posts: 425
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
    Yes HS2 would eventually reveal new bottlenecks but x million more people could travel.
    a 10-mile viaduct through the middle of a major city is an unfixable problem.
    Being pedantic, and returning to PB after a long Trump-victory inspired rest from politics, that’s an unfeasible solution rather than unfixable problem but I take your point.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,875
    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    Or in manufacturing - Queuing Theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

    Here's the scenario. In order to get people who actually understand what's needed to be done, you have to hire people who actually understand what's needed to be done. This requires knowing the issues in the first place. If you can't measure, you can't control. Then you have to pay for the skills.

    Let's come back to "knowing" what are the problem? You introduce targets and measures and you get push back or the Daily Mail complaining about box tickers.

    And paying for skills? Daily Mail and others rejecting 'gold plated inflation-linked' salaries. So you get the muddlers who muddle along.

    Basically we get what we want which is muddling along from crisis to crisis as it sells newspapers etc. Who wants trains to run on time like the Swiss?

    There is also a religious belief that anyone who actually knows about the matter at hand, is a serf. Only Proper Generalists can run things.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,772
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I realise this will get me the ban hammer, but it's all George Osborne's fault.

    The oft-quoted "austerity", backed, unfortunately, by the LDs in Coalition, continues to resonate through our society. From 2010, while some parts of the public sector (health, education) were left unscathed, other areas suffered savage cuts. Local Government suffered badly with over one million posts lost and savage cuts to services leaving councils vulnerable to the rise of social care demand.

    We now see the impacts of the dreadful decisions implemented by Theresa May at the Home Office aided and abetted by idiots like Boris Johnson when Mayor of London. It wasn't just the cuts to Police numbers but the selling off of operational Police offices which effectively distanced law enforcement from the general public but also the closure of court buildings such as Magistrates Courts.

    Labour, a decade and a half later, are paying the political consequences for the failings of their predecessors but that's how politics works and they've been left holding the hand grenade. The problem, as we know, is spending money on courts and lawyers isn't popular while making extravagant promised about recruiting more Police (Kemi Badenoch and before her Susan Hall when campaigning to be Mayor of London) are what the public (whose perceptions of criminality are often at huge variance to the facts) want to hear.

    Agree with most of your post, but Health wasn't left unscathed, the waiting list increases stem from austerity.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,722

    If each case took half as long in court, twice as many could be processed.

    So how can trials be accelerated?

    What are the faffing about bits that can be dealt with to offer quick wins?

    You're missing the point of Robert's header. If twice as many people were prosecuted what on earth would we do with them? The prisons, parole and criminal justice social work systems are all beyond capacity. If anything, they need the system to slow down the through put.

    So, how do we address this? Well, we certainly need more prison places but we also need to think much more carefully about who is in the prison and for how long. Sentences have been increasing for the most serious crimes for more than 20 years now. We have far more very long term prisoners who, inevitably, are very difficult to handle because what can we do to them?

    In Scotland we have introduced a policy of a presumption against short sentences, that is less than 6 months. Which sound sensible. After all causing someone to lose their job, their house, contact with their family etc really doesn't help recidivism. But with prisoners now serving only 40% of their sentences under 4 years this means you cannot impose jail for less than a year in practice. Which means we urgently need community based disposals that are a sufficient sanction to disincentivise the opportunistic criminal. Programs which encouraged them onto the right path would be even better.

    We also have a series of fixed penalties and fiscal fines for the stuff we used to prosecute in the courts. Which works perfectly well with those who actually have money but they are rarely (road traffic aside) the problem.

    None of these "solutions" has prevented Scotland from having very similar problems to England. Trials take much longer than they used to. More than 25 years ago now I used to routinely get through 4 trials in the Justice of the Peace court in a day. Inconceivable these days. The disclosure provisions are extremely onerous and bureaucratic. Neither I nor my colleagues can speak to a complainer or a witness without making disclosure of what was said. The defence are supposed to read all this guff and can be criticised if it is found that they have not.

    My conclusion is that this is not really a bottleneck problem. It requires a series of changes at each and every stage, each of which will make improvements and cause further stress elsewhere. If I had to choose one I would say we need to focus on policies and strategies that reduce reoffending. We are very poor at that and it creates a lot of the demand in the system.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,356
    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
    Yes HS2 would eventually reveal new bottlenecks but x million more people could travel.
    Absolutely - I'm just pointing out that sometimes the investment might be better focussed, particularly for private car travel which generates much of the congestion in our towns and cities.

    If LA had spent their cash on a proper public transport system rather than constantly adding more lanes, you'd have much less vehicle traffic, more room for housing etc etc.

    I'm a big fan of HS2, but there is an opportunity cost there of £100 billion on trams and buses which would have probably delivered a much better BCR (but only in the north of England, so I can see why that wasn't attractive...).
    Making Brum a suburb of London was far more desirable to the Westminster mindset.
    More about making Milton Keynes/Bedford/Peterborough into suburbs of London really. Move the very fast intercity trains to a new track and you can run a lot more fastish trains in their place. The same could have been done around Birmingham and Manchester, but...

    (It's not quite bottleneck/rate limiting step/critical path theory, but it has some similar properties. Again, nobody ever found an effective way of saying it to fit in the attention span of a media interviewer.)
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,836
    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    Or in manufacturing - Queuing Theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

    In project management, it’s called Critical Path Methodology, which will be familiar to anyone who’s done the PMP course.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_path_method

    Interesting that different disciplines have their own terminology for what’s basically the same idea, that there’s always one point that dictates the speed of the whole process.
    And one of the ways to sort the issue is to 'flush' the system on a one-off. So they let x number of prisoners out early to be able to get the system back to a steady state, and everyone complains. Sensible, logical but could/should No.10s comms team actually explain this?
  • eekeek Posts: 31,647
    Battlebus said:

    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    Or in manufacturing - Queuing Theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

    In project management, it’s called Critical Path Methodology, which will be familiar to anyone who’s done the PMP course.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_path_method

    Interesting that different disciplines have their own terminology for what’s basically the same idea, that there’s always one point that dictates the speed of the whole process.
    And one of the ways to sort the issue is to 'flush' the system on a one-off. So they let x number of prisoners out early to be able to get the system back to a steady state, and everyone complains. Sensible, logical but could/should No.10s comms team actually explain this?
    Except the issue isn’t in the prisons it’s in the courts so are you happy to let people charged with crimes XYZ off Scot free because we don’t have time to prosecute them
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,536
    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,735
    Bottlenecks sometimes are at the very start of the process. By far the best, most socially cohesive way of stopping the criminal court bottleneck is crime prevention, which in fact should be the number one priority of the police and justice system. This can happen. Crime rates can and do drop.

    On courts, note that the bottleneck has got worse under the new government. I suspect the only real answer is a massive and unpopular amnesty/deals to accept light pleas for cases running years over time.

    On another bottleneck problem, our beloved and highly competent government was on the right lines when it made it a priority to smash the gangs and stop the boats. Doing that will enable the asylum system bottleneck to sort itself out. Any idea, 15 months in, what the timetable is for that aim? It seems to me we should be about there by now.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 309

    If each case took half as long in court, twice as many could be processed.

    So how can trials be accelerated?

    What are the faffing about bits that can be dealt with to offer quick wins?

    Pre-sentence reports, victim statements, and mitigations could all be postponed till after sentencing and left to the Parole Board or a new body that could vary sentences either functionally or actually.

    For murders committed by obvious fruitloops, skip the trial and initial six months in prison before moving offenders to secure psychiatric units.
    They had it right in Medieval times - trial by ordeal and stick in the stocks!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,356

    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    Or in manufacturing - Queuing Theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

    Here's the scenario. In order to get people who actually understand what's needed to be done, you have to hire people who actually understand what's needed to be done. This requires knowing the issues in the first place. If you can't measure, you can't control. Then you have to pay for the skills.

    Let's come back to "knowing" what are the problem? You introduce targets and measures and you get push back or the Daily Mail complaining about box tickers.

    And paying for skills? Daily Mail and others rejecting 'gold plated inflation-linked' salaries. So you get the muddlers who muddle along.

    Basically we get what we want which is muddling along from crisis to crisis as it sells newspapers etc. Who wants trains to run on time like the Swiss?

    There is also a religious belief that anyone who actually knows about the matter at hand, is a serf. Only Proper Generalists can run things.
    The irony being that the Theory With Many Names is actually a good example of something that is incredibly generalist. That's why diffferent fields have different names for the same concept. What is it that these Proper Generalists are actually good at?

    It's not just blagging, is it?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,735
    eek said:

    Battlebus said:

    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    Or in manufacturing - Queuing Theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

    In project management, it’s called Critical Path Methodology, which will be familiar to anyone who’s done the PMP course.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_path_method

    Interesting that different disciplines have their own terminology for what’s basically the same idea, that there’s always one point that dictates the speed of the whole process.
    And one of the ways to sort the issue is to 'flush' the system on a one-off. So they let x number of prisoners out early to be able to get the system back to a steady state, and everyone complains. Sensible, logical but could/should No.10s comms team actually explain this?
    Except the issue isn’t in the prisons it’s in the courts so are you happy to let people charged with crimes XYZ off Scot free because we don’t have time to prosecute them
    If the backlog continues to rise (which it has under this government) there won't be another solution.

    The principal victims of delays of course is that ignored group of people, victims of crime and potential witnesses.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,380
    Cyclefree ghost-writing for Robert? :lol:

    Um, good, well-argued article, BTW.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,051
    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    Or in manufacturing - Queuing Theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

    In project management, it’s called Critical Path Methodology, which will be familiar to anyone who’s done the PMP course.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_path_method

    Interesting that different disciplines have their own terminology for what’s basically the same idea, that there’s always one point that dictates the speed of the whole process.
    I remember in biology it was called the Limiting Factor (for plants it was typically either lack of sun, water, or food, for example).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,875
    edited October 27

    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    Or in manufacturing - Queuing Theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

    Here's the scenario. In order to get people who actually understand what's needed to be done, you have to hire people who actually understand what's needed to be done. This requires knowing the issues in the first place. If you can't measure, you can't control. Then you have to pay for the skills.

    Let's come back to "knowing" what are the problem? You introduce targets and measures and you get push back or the Daily Mail complaining about box tickers.

    And paying for skills? Daily Mail and others rejecting 'gold plated inflation-linked' salaries. So you get the muddlers who muddle along.

    Basically we get what we want which is muddling along from crisis to crisis as it sells newspapers etc. Who wants trains to run on time like the Swiss?

    There is also a religious belief that anyone who actually knows about the matter at hand, is a serf. Only Proper Generalists can run things.
    The irony being that the Theory With Many Names is actually a good example of something that is incredibly generalist. That's why diffferent fields have different names for the same concept. What is it that these Proper Generalists are actually good at?

    It's not just blagging, is it?
    No, it is.

    Anyone with qualifications in Operations Research (which this is) would not be allowed to head a major project in the Civil Service.

    The Proper Generalists have no idea how the real world works.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,722
    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    At least 5 days of trial court wasted. Probably at least £100k. Preparation work for a murder probably several multiples of that depending on the complexity of the case. Justice delayed for the best part of a year and more court time needed which delays other cases. For murder, possibly the additional cost of having the accused on remand for even longer.

    This is made crystal clear to every jury. What they read on the internet is not necessarily right and it is not evidence in the case. It cannot be allowed to influence their decisions. It sounds relatively innocent but the consequences are significant.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,961
    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    Morning All!

    Yes, and the judge seemed to throw the (verbal) book at him:
    "Judge Tracey Lloyd-Clarke described Richards' actions as a "flagrant disobedience of the court's directions".'

    Surely the discharge of him and his fellow jurors and a lecture on wasting the Court's time would have been sufficient.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,884
    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    The chemist in me cannot help but bridle at you taking the term 'rate limiting step' for Biology, when it is clearly a chemistry term...

    I am no expert on courts and the law. And I think we would all hope that were we ever in trouble ourselves we would receive a fair go before whichever court we appear before. I also don't necessarily think US style plea bargains are perfect. But is there not a happy medium were obvious cases don't get to court? Do such cases exist?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,820
    edited October 27

    Cyclefree ghost-writing for Robert? :lol:

    Um, good, well-argued article, BTW.

    It's an excellent article. @rcs1000 describes one of the bottlenecks very well.

    Why has it arisen? I'll tell you why - and it is exactly the same reason as I said in August 2019 -

    "The legal system has few friends. There is an assumption that it mostly deals with the criminal and the feckless. Few politicians care about them. It has no “Aaah” factor. Most people hope never to encounter it. Those who are caught up in it are generally appalled by the experience. It has been in recent years put in the care, if that is the word, of politicians with little knowledge about it and little willingness to learn, let alone to fight to make it better.

    For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss, about whom the word “second-rate” would be an undeserved compliment. Michael Gove spent much of his time undoing the damage caused by his predecessor. Few Ministers lasted more than a year. And who was responsible for the police? Well, one Mrs May, followed by Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid. Enough said.

    Lawyers, however eloquent they may be on behalf of their clients, are generally hopeless at explaining why law and justice matter to anyone other than fellow lawyers. But our legal system does matter, very much indeed. There is no more important function of the state than the maintenance of law and order.

    Crucial to that are a competent police force, a legal system which works and in which equality under the law and access to justice are not simply empty phrases, prisons which are something other than a breeding ground of violence and hopelessness and a probation service which works. All these aspects matter not just one of them.

    The rule of law is not simply an airy phrase: it is the reality of a state able to keep its citizens safe, a state able to apprehend criminals, a state able to dispense justice, a state able find the right balance between the rights of the innocent and the guilty, a state able to enforce its laws, a state able to punish fairly and provide the hope of rehabilitation for those who have paid their dues. ........

    The rule of law in its widest sense is something of which Britain ought to be proud; it has probably had a greater claim than the NHS to be considered “the envy of the world“. But for too long it has been neglected, downgraded, ignored and managed by penny pinchers who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Futile as this plea may be, it is long past the time for this to stop.
    "

    (https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/08/11/blind-to-justice/)

    I'll be naughty and repost this.


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,767

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
    Yes HS2 would eventually reveal new bottlenecks but x million more people could travel.
    a 10-mile viaduct through the middle of a major city is an unfixable problem.
    Being pedantic, and returning to PB after a long Trump-victory inspired rest from politics, that’s an unfeasible solution rather than unfixable problem but I take your point.

    The 10-mile viaduct is the existing M6, which was the unfixable problem, and why they had to build the M6 toll to add capacity.

    Welcome back. Unlike many on here I’m a pragmatist when it comes to Trump, there’s little point getting wound up about someone miles away over whom we have little control. If you follow people who support him as well as those who hate him, then you get a better understanding of where he’s coming from, even if he can be somewhat unpredictable. Certainly a unique politician, that’s for sure.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,536
    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    At least 5 days of trial court wasted. Probably at least £100k. Preparation work for a murder probably several multiples of that depending on the complexity of the case. Justice delayed for the best part of a year and more court time needed which delays other cases. For murder, possibly the additional cost of having the accused on remand for even longer.

    This is made crystal clear to every jury. What they read on the internet is not necessarily right and it is not evidence in the case. It cannot be allowed to influence their decisions. It sounds relatively innocent but the consequences are significant.
    I’m sure all jurors look up things on the internet . To expect jurors to live in a bubble for the whole case is un-realistic. The juror could have been given a non-custodial sentence . There was no malice intended .
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597
    The US liberal news media.

    Washington Post editorial board comes out in support of Trump tearing down East Wing and building a massive ballroom. That is wrong. But what is unethical is the owner of the Post, Jeff Bezos, is donating millions to build the ballroom (via Amazon) yet they did NOT Mention that.
    https://x.com/DeanObeidallah/status/1982420808460026113

    During a trip to DC last week, CNN CEO Mark Thompson made a visit to the White House, where he promoted the network’s new streamer

    Staffers were taken aback the next morning when Thompson urged to ease up on East Wing renovation coverage

    https://x.com/NatalieKorach/status/1982617484126818631

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,961
    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    At least 5 days of trial court wasted. Probably at least £100k. Preparation work for a murder probably several multiples of that depending on the complexity of the case. Justice delayed for the best part of a year and more court time needed which delays other cases. For murder, possibly the additional cost of having the accused on remand for even longer.

    This is made crystal clear to every jury. What they read on the internet is not necessarily right and it is not evidence in the case. It cannot be allowed to influence their decisions. It sounds relatively innocent but the consequences are significant.
    I don't think either Mr 67 or myself are disputing that. What we are saying is that the sentence seems both out of proportion to the the offence and, worse, inappropriate.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,735
    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    At least 5 days of trial court wasted. Probably at least £100k. Preparation work for a murder probably several multiples of that depending on the complexity of the case. Justice delayed for the best part of a year and more court time needed which delays other cases. For murder, possibly the additional cost of having the accused on remand for even longer.

    This is made crystal clear to every jury. What they read on the internet is not necessarily right and it is not evidence in the case. It cannot be allowed to influence their decisions. It sounds relatively innocent but the consequences are significant.
    Agree, but human nature is what it is and SFAICS it is more or less impossible to prevent access to prejudicial etc stuff (including accurate prejudicial stuff like old BBC reports of the earlier crimes of defendant X). So I don't think it can be policed. What it might teach jurors is the same lesson experienced defendants learn: Know how and when to shut up and say nothing.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,376

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    Morning All!

    Yes, and the judge seemed to throw the (verbal) book at him:
    "Judge Tracey Lloyd-Clarke described Richards' actions as a "flagrant disobedience of the court's directions".'

    Surely the discharge of him and his fellow jurors and a lecture on wasting the Court's time would have been sufficient.
    A guy gets four months for misunderstanding a jury instruction which results in a delayed trial, whilst all those who defrauded the taxpayer by providing unusable PPE during a national panic, just get to sit and count the accruing interest on their ill gotten gains.

    It's a funny old game Saint.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,836

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    Morning All!

    Yes, and the judge seemed to throw the (verbal) book at him:
    "Judge Tracey Lloyd-Clarke described Richards' actions as a "flagrant disobedience of the court's directions".'

    Surely the discharge of him and his fellow jurors and a lecture on wasting the Court's time would have been sufficient.
    The last and only time I did jury duty, I had the vague feeling I had had dealing with the defence solicitor before so I mentioned this to the usher. Was brought in front of the judge to explain this. Said I could easily go home and check my paperwork to see if I had or not. Judge basically said don't bother and dismissed me so that was the end of my duty. Had waited a week to be called, and there wasn't enough time to select me for another trial so off I went.

    So if you want to duck jury duty....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,397
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    The goal, or the gaol? ;)

    Yes, the critical constraint should be familiar to anyone who’s run projects or worked in complex production. There’s always one machine or process that determines the throughput of the whole process, and the way you make efficiencies over time is to always concentrate on whatever is the current bottleneck.

    The same concept applies to transport, for example you could increase long-distance journey times significantly by tackling a handful of problematic junctions.

    When they built the Second Severn Crossing, it should have been blindingly obvious that the Brynglas Tunnels would end up being the bottleneck. That was three decades ago, and the Brynglas Tunnels are still the bottleneck.

    There's always a bottleneck - that's how you end up with the "one more lane bro" situation in places like LA. Even if we built HS2, you'd quickly find a new bottleneck somewhere else as the rail travel increases. The same goes for cycle infrastructure - remarkably, we already have serious bottlenecks in central London and even one in Edinburgh.

    I understand the frustration they cause but I think there has to be some proper transport engineering and modelling behind resolving them, otherwise you simply move the problem somewhere else.
    What and where is the cycle infrastructure bottleneck in London.

    Nothing to do with the topic, which ofc is shocking - we lock up the most people on the planet (or something like that) and we wonder why we run out of prisons.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,400
    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    At least 5 days of trial court wasted. Probably at least £100k. Preparation work for a murder probably several multiples of that depending on the complexity of the case. Justice delayed for the best part of a year and more court time needed which delays other cases. For murder, possibly the additional cost of having the accused on remand for even longer.

    This is made crystal clear to every jury. What they read on the internet is not necessarily right and it is not evidence in the case. It cannot be allowed to influence their decisions. It sounds relatively innocent but the consequences are significant.
    I’m sure all jurors look up things on the internet . To expect jurors to live in a bubble for the whole case is un-realistic. The juror could have been given a non-custodial sentence . There was no malice intended .
    The worrying thing is that we are appointing people to juries who are to stupid to understand that if you do a bit of your own research *you shouldn't tell anyone*
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,984

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    Morning All!

    Yes, and the judge seemed to throw the (verbal) book at him:
    "Judge Tracey Lloyd-Clarke described Richards' actions as a "flagrant disobedience of the court's directions".'

    Surely the discharge of him and his fellow jurors and a lecture on wasting the Court's time would have been sufficient.
    A guy gets four months for misunderstanding a jury instruction which results in a delayed trial, whilst all those who defrauded the taxpayer by providing unusable PPE during a national panic, just get to sit and count the accruing interest on their ill gotten gains.

    It's a funny old game Saint.
    Sounds like he wasn’t even looking up anything about the trial itself, but about the definition of joint enterprise.

    How is that worth 4 months in jail?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,397
    And if he/the jury didn't know about joint enterprise, would(n't) that have prejudiced the case against the defendants? Or would it have been explained to the jury in court?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,884
    Phil said:

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    Morning All!

    Yes, and the judge seemed to throw the (verbal) book at him:
    "Judge Tracey Lloyd-Clarke described Richards' actions as a "flagrant disobedience of the court's directions".'

    Surely the discharge of him and his fellow jurors and a lecture on wasting the Court's time would have been sufficient.
    A guy gets four months for misunderstanding a jury instruction which results in a delayed trial, whilst all those who defrauded the taxpayer by providing unusable PPE during a national panic, just get to sit and count the accruing interest on their ill gotten gains.

    It's a funny old game Saint.
    Sounds like he wasn’t even looking up anything about the trial itself, but about the definition of joint enterprise.

    How is that worth 4 months in jail?
    And how would it be different if said juror simply happened to know about the topic anyway and was discussing such?
    It does seem an over the top punishment for a stupid mistake.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,735
    eek said:

    Battlebus said:

    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Great header. It is also what we know in biology as the "rate limiting step".

    It speaks to me of how useless Starmer is. He may not know much about other things but has decades of experience of the criminal justice system and should be completely familiar with the delays, yet has failed to tackle it at all.

    Or in manufacturing - Queuing Theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory

    In project management, it’s called Critical Path Methodology, which will be familiar to anyone who’s done the PMP course.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_path_method

    Interesting that different disciplines have their own terminology for what’s basically the same idea, that there’s always one point that dictates the speed of the whole process.
    And one of the ways to sort the issue is to 'flush' the system on a one-off. So they let x number of prisoners out early to be able to get the system back to a steady state, and everyone complains. Sensible, logical but could/should No.10s comms team actually explain this?
    Except the issue isn’t in the prisons it’s in the courts so are you happy to let people charged with crimes XYZ off Scot free because we don’t have time to prosecute them
    If you want a civilized society the problem is always everything. Prisons may not be the immediate bottleneck under discussion, but sometimes it is. But the permanent problem of prison is what they are for. Are they there as an expensive way of making bad people worse, or are they there so that the 99.9% of inmates who one day will be let out will then lead lives which don't clog up the courts with criminal cases.

    The complex of educational, emotional, psychological and psychiatric problems of the prison population remains mostly unaddressed both during and after incarceration.

    A model by which we (pace the Daily Mail) acted on the basis that most crime most of the time has its origin outside bare criminal evilness (though some does) would help.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,376
    edited October 27
    Phil said:

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    Morning All!

    Yes, and the judge seemed to throw the (verbal) book at him:
    "Judge Tracey Lloyd-Clarke described Richards' actions as a "flagrant disobedience of the court's directions".'

    Surely the discharge of him and his fellow jurors and a lecture on wasting the Court's time would have been sufficient.
    A guy gets four months for misunderstanding a jury instruction which results in a delayed trial, whilst all those who defrauded the taxpayer by providing unusable PPE during a national panic, just get to sit and count the accruing interest on their ill gotten gains.

    It's a funny old game Saint.
    Sounds like he wasn’t even looking up anything about the trial itself, but about the definition of joint enterprise.

    How is that worth 4 months in jail?
    I suppose there is a cost of the suspended trial, but would it have been as much of a waste of taxpayers money as, say the repainting of JohnsonForce One a few years ago? As far as I am aware Johnson is still at liberty.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,356
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree ghost-writing for Robert? :lol:

    Um, good, well-argued article, BTW.

    It's an excellent article. @rcs1000 describes one of the bottlenecks very well.

    Why has it arisen? I'll tell you why - and it is exactly the same reason as I said in August 2019 -

    "The legal system has few friends. There is an assumption that it mostly deals with the criminal and the feckless. Few politicians care about them. It has no “Aaah” factor. Most people hope never to encounter it. Those who are caught up in it are generally appalled by the experience. It has been in recent years put in the care, if that is the word, of politicians with little knowledge about it and little willingness to learn, let alone to fight to make it better.

    For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss, about whom the word “second-rate” would be an undeserved compliment. Michael Gove spent much of his time undoing the damage caused by his predecessor. Few Ministers lasted more than a year. And who was responsible for the police? Well, one Mrs May, followed by Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid. Enough said.

    Lawyers, however eloquent they may be on behalf of their clients, are generally hopeless at explaining why law and justice matter to anyone other than fellow lawyers. But our legal system does matter, very much indeed. There is no more important function of the state than the maintenance of law and order.

    Crucial to that are a competent police force, a legal system which works and in which equality under the law and access to justice are not simply empty phrases, prisons which are something other than a breeding ground of violence and hopelessness and a probation service which works. All these aspects matter not just one of them.

    The rule of law is not simply an airy phrase: it is the reality of a state able to keep its citizens safe, a state able to apprehend criminals, a state able to dispense justice, a state able find the right balance between the rights of the innocent and the guilty, a state able to enforce its laws, a state able to punish fairly and provide the hope of rehabilitation for those who have paid their dues. ........

    The rule of law in its widest sense is something of which Britain ought to be proud; it has probably had a greater claim than the NHS to be considered “the envy of the world“. But for too long it has been neglected, downgraded, ignored and managed by penny pinchers who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Futile as this plea may be, it is long past the time for this to stop.
    "

    (https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/08/11/blind-to-justice/)

    I'll be naughty and repost this.


    Of course you're right, Ms Cyclefree. But the apparently impossible question is... how to fix it?

    We are in a society that likes penny-pinching, because it assumes that frees up pennies for sweeties now. As for future us, they're in the future, so serves them right.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,872
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    At least 5 days of trial court wasted. Probably at least £100k. Preparation work for a murder probably several multiples of that depending on the complexity of the case. Justice delayed for the best part of a year and more court time needed which delays other cases. For murder, possibly the additional cost of having the accused on remand for even longer.

    This is made crystal clear to every jury. What they read on the internet is not necessarily right and it is not evidence in the case. It cannot be allowed to influence their decisions. It sounds relatively innocent but the consequences are significant.
    Come on, the sentence is so stiff because the juror has basically trod on the court's toes. Burglary, fraud, people razzing away from the coppers at 70 down a residential road, shoplifters & nonces aren't nearly dealt with as relatively harshly. But because the juror was directly potentially mucking up the judges' own work the sentence is completely out of whack because he's angered the judge.
    Now the judge might be very angry with all this but he shouldn't be sentencing based on that anger, which is what I think he's done here.
    Yes it's absurd. We cannot afford to jail people for stuff like this. A fine would be appropriate.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,647
    edited October 27

    Phil said:

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    Morning All!

    Yes, and the judge seemed to throw the (verbal) book at him:
    "Judge Tracey Lloyd-Clarke described Richards' actions as a "flagrant disobedience of the court's directions".'

    Surely the discharge of him and his fellow jurors and a lecture on wasting the Court's time would have been sufficient.
    A guy gets four months for misunderstanding a jury instruction which results in a delayed trial, whilst all those who defrauded the taxpayer by providing unusable PPE during a national panic, just get to sit and count the accruing interest on their ill gotten gains.

    It's a funny old game Saint.
    Sounds like he wasn’t even looking up anything about the trial itself, but about the definition of joint enterprise.

    How is that worth 4 months in jail?
    I suppose there is a cost of the suspended trial, but would it have been as much of a waste of taxpayers money as, say the repainting of JohnsonForce One a few years ago? As far as I am aware Johnson is still at liberty.
    So the best option would be - I don’t understand what joint enterprise is because the end point of that is the judge and prosecution failed to explain the case so everyone is innocent

    I expect the only thing the juror wanted to do was not feel like an idiot for not knowing something where it was being implied that the details were obvious
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,884

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree ghost-writing for Robert? :lol:

    Um, good, well-argued article, BTW.

    It's an excellent article. @rcs1000 describes one of the bottlenecks very well.

    Why has it arisen? I'll tell you why - and it is exactly the same reason as I said in August 2019 -

    "The legal system has few friends. There is an assumption that it mostly deals with the criminal and the feckless. Few politicians care about them. It has no “Aaah” factor. Most people hope never to encounter it. Those who are caught up in it are generally appalled by the experience. It has been in recent years put in the care, if that is the word, of politicians with little knowledge about it and little willingness to learn, let alone to fight to make it better.

    For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss, about whom the word “second-rate” would be an undeserved compliment. Michael Gove spent much of his time undoing the damage caused by his predecessor. Few Ministers lasted more than a year. And who was responsible for the police? Well, one Mrs May, followed by Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid. Enough said.

    Lawyers, however eloquent they may be on behalf of their clients, are generally hopeless at explaining why law and justice matter to anyone other than fellow lawyers. But our legal system does matter, very much indeed. There is no more important function of the state than the maintenance of law and order.

    Crucial to that are a competent police force, a legal system which works and in which equality under the law and access to justice are not simply empty phrases, prisons which are something other than a breeding ground of violence and hopelessness and a probation service which works. All these aspects matter not just one of them.

    The rule of law is not simply an airy phrase: it is the reality of a state able to keep its citizens safe, a state able to apprehend criminals, a state able to dispense justice, a state able find the right balance between the rights of the innocent and the guilty, a state able to enforce its laws, a state able to punish fairly and provide the hope of rehabilitation for those who have paid their dues. ........

    The rule of law in its widest sense is something of which Britain ought to be proud; it has probably had a greater claim than the NHS to be considered “the envy of the world“. But for too long it has been neglected, downgraded, ignored and managed by penny pinchers who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Futile as this plea may be, it is long past the time for this to stop.
    "

    (https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/08/11/blind-to-justice/)

    I'll be naughty and repost this.


    Of course you're right, Ms Cyclefree. But the apparently impossible question is... how to fix it?

    We are in a society that likes penny-pinching, because it assumes that frees up pennies for sweeties now. As for future us, they're in the future, so serves them right.
    As we borrowed 20 billion last month to pay the bills, I don't think that we really are a society that likes penny pinching.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,597
    edited October 27
    eek said:

    Phil said:

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    Morning All!

    Yes, and the judge seemed to throw the (verbal) book at him:
    "Judge Tracey Lloyd-Clarke described Richards' actions as a "flagrant disobedience of the court's directions".'

    Surely the discharge of him and his fellow jurors and a lecture on wasting the Court's time would have been sufficient.
    A guy gets four months for misunderstanding a jury instruction which results in a delayed trial, whilst all those who defrauded the taxpayer by providing unusable PPE during a national panic, just get to sit and count the accruing interest on their ill gotten gains.

    It's a funny old game Saint.
    Sounds like he wasn’t even looking up anything about the trial itself, but about the definition of joint enterprise.

    How is that worth 4 months in jail?
    I suppose there is a cost of the suspended trial, but would it have been as much of a waste of taxpayers money as, say the repainting of JohnsonForce One a few years ago? As far as I am aware Johnson is still at liberty.
    So the best option would be - I don’t understand what joint enterprise is because the end point of that is the judge and prosecution failed to explain the case so everyone is innocent

    I expect the only thing the juror wanted to do was not feel like an idiot for not knowing something where it was being implied that the details were obvious
    If a jury doesn't understand a point of law, they can - and should - ask to have it explained to them again.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,642

    Nigelb said:

    Graham says lawmakers to be briefed on potential Venezuela land attack
    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5574094-trump-military-action-latin-america/

    Potential Venezuela land attack, abbreviated SMO.
    Guyana would probably be pleased if Maduro fell to the Americans, and his acquisitive eyeing of newfound Guyanan (Guyanese?) oil fields came to nought.
    Until Trump’s acquisitive eye fell upon them!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,961

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree ghost-writing for Robert? :lol:

    Um, good, well-argued article, BTW.

    It's an excellent article. @rcs1000 describes one of the bottlenecks very well.

    Why has it arisen? I'll tell you why - and it is exactly the same reason as I said in August 2019 -

    "The legal system has few friends. There is an assumption that it mostly deals with the criminal and the feckless. Few politicians care about them. It has no “Aaah” factor. Most people hope never to encounter it. Those who are caught up in it are generally appalled by the experience. It has been in recent years put in the care, if that is the word, of politicians with little knowledge about it and little willingness to learn, let alone to fight to make it better.

    For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss, about whom the word “second-rate” would be an undeserved compliment. Michael Gove spent much of his time undoing the damage caused by his predecessor. Few Ministers lasted more than a year. And who was responsible for the police? Well, one Mrs May, followed by Amber Rudd and Sajid Javid. Enough said.

    Lawyers, however eloquent they may be on behalf of their clients, are generally hopeless at explaining why law and justice matter to anyone other than fellow lawyers. But our legal system does matter, very much indeed. There is no more important function of the state than the maintenance of law and order.

    Crucial to that are a competent police force, a legal system which works and in which equality under the law and access to justice are not simply empty phrases, prisons which are something other than a breeding ground of violence and hopelessness and a probation service which works. All these aspects matter not just one of them.

    The rule of law is not simply an airy phrase: it is the reality of a state able to keep its citizens safe, a state able to apprehend criminals, a state able to dispense justice, a state able find the right balance between the rights of the innocent and the guilty, a state able to enforce its laws, a state able to punish fairly and provide the hope of rehabilitation for those who have paid their dues. ........

    The rule of law in its widest sense is something of which Britain ought to be proud; it has probably had a greater claim than the NHS to be considered “the envy of the world“. But for too long it has been neglected, downgraded, ignored and managed by penny pinchers who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Futile as this plea may be, it is long past the time for this to stop.
    "

    (https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/08/11/blind-to-justice/)

    I'll be naughty and repost this.


    Of course you're right, Ms Cyclefree. But the apparently impossible question is... how to fix it?

    We are in a society that likes penny-pinching, because it assumes that frees up pennies for sweeties now. As for future us, they're in the future, so serves them right.
    One of our problems derives from Mrs Thatcher's views. I recall her saying something like her preferring that the best minds from Oxford and Cambridge (I know, I know) should go into the City rather than public service. Up until then very bright students would include public service, as Civil Servants in their career options. After that, not so much.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,285
    rkrkrk said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    This seems like a ridiculous sentence for a juror who seemed to just want to understand more about the case . Prisons are full and yet they’re putting people in jail for this .

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77zvl0777mo

    At least 5 days of trial court wasted. Probably at least £100k. Preparation work for a murder probably several multiples of that depending on the complexity of the case. Justice delayed for the best part of a year and more court time needed which delays other cases. For murder, possibly the additional cost of having the accused on remand for even longer.

    This is made crystal clear to every jury. What they read on the internet is not necessarily right and it is not evidence in the case. It cannot be allowed to influence their decisions. It sounds relatively innocent but the consequences are significant.
    Come on, the sentence is so stiff because the juror has basically trod on the court's toes. Burglary, fraud, people razzing away from the coppers at 70 down a residential road, shoplifters & nonces aren't nearly dealt with as relatively harshly. But because the juror was directly potentially mucking up the judges' own work the sentence is completely out of whack because he's angered the judge.
    Now the judge might be very angry with all this but he shouldn't be sentencing based on that anger, which is what I think he's done here.
    Yes it's absurd. We cannot afford to jail people for stuff like this. A fine would be appropriate.
    He;s not even looking up details about the defendant, he's obviously just googled "joint enterprise" ffsake.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,872
    Great header and I like the parallel to the assembly line.
    But I disagree that Starmer and his govt are disinterested.

    One thing this govt is not short of is lawyer politicians. Unusually they have been willing to be radical in this area - e.g. in reducing jury trials.

    And at a time when money is very tight, even a modest increase in the justice budget shows prioritisation.
    The reality is though that this is a long term fix.
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