Skip to content

A plurality of voters think gambling taxes are too low – politicalbetting.com

13

Comments

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,446

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267
    edited October 21
    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    He's turned Jackie Kennedy's Rose Garden into a beer garden too.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,566

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    It’s the ask for forgiveness approach - knock it down and you may as well rebuild it the way you want it - as 90% of the time you will be allowed to build what you want

  • eekeek Posts: 31,566

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,510

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling bto censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    In previous times calling for the deportation of people legally here would have been met with a much bigger blowback . Lams comments are appalling and instead of calling them out properly Labours response has been pathetic .

    I truly despair at the state of the discourse around immigration in the UK .
  • It is extraordinary just how much sentiment exists in the population that people who enjoy something that doesnt impact on others should be interfered with.
    Driven by "the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy". It was similar post covid with a sizable part of the population that do not attend night clubs, have never attended them, wanted to ban them, even when covid was no longer a live issue.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,446

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    He's turned Jackie Kennedy's Rose Garden into a beer garden too.
    I only have one thing to say about that. xxxx.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,667

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    He's turned Jackie Kennedy's Rose Garden into a beer garden too.
    I only have one thing to say about that. xxxx.
    Why would they be serving Castlemaine XXXX there?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,371
    boulay said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    He's turned Jackie Kennedy's Rose Garden into a beer garden too.
    I only have one thing to say about that. xxxx.
    Why would they be serving Castlemaine XXXX there?
    Well it is tasteless and fairly disgusting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,371
    This is the way.

    "Poland will force Putin's plane to land for arrest," - Foreign Minister Sikorski said that the country cannot guarantee the safe flight of the plane over its territory.
    https://x.com/UkrReview/status/1980553257706819904
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,269
    Taz said:

    This will please @Luckyguy1983

    NEW: Keir Starmer will go to COP30 in Brazil next month. Had been expected not to go but No10 says he will attend to bang the drum for net zero

    https://x.com/lizzybuchan/status/1980269640006668487?s=46&t=d8CnRhyZJ-m4vy0k55W8XQ

    It's going out of the country and thinking Big Things with Important Foreign People instead of staying home and thinking about the little people. He is well suited to the position of Foreign Secretary.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,371
    This is inevitable.
    Brown increased car taxes, both direct and indirect, a lot during his time as Chancellor. But environmental incentives steadily increased, too.
    That has continued.

    With EV incentives, and the big rise in EV registrations ,the tax gulf has become insurmountable without major modification.

    Rachel Reeves is considering taxes on electric vehicle drivers based on their car’s weight or a pay-per-mile system
    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1979283231745724730

    Presumably, this will have been a cherished Treasury scheme, in planning for a number of years.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,858
    A Reform government to put Police operational control under them.
    Great.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,335

    Johnson isn't doing too badly, but he does look like absolute shite.

    You'd think Carrie would have told him to get his hair cut, at least.

    And it's already raining in Colombo.
    "Oh, Mr Cole, there's just one more thing..."
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,335

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    "FAKE NEWS from the RADICAL LEFT LUNATICS! It's being knocked down with MY CONSENT! THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER!"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,371
    Does Johnson have dementia, too ?

    The Pentagon’s gone dark, and Johnson’s calling it “transparency.”

    JONATHAN KARL: “The guy’s (Hegseth) only had two briefings since he became Secretary of Defense… they’ve basically forced the Pentagon press out of the building…”

    SPEAKER JOHNSON: “I can’t remember… a Secretary of Defense who has been so transparent.”

    https://x.com/cwebbonline/status/1980285856645861695
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,024
    About as OT as one can get, but for reasons that must remain mysterious I've discovered that the French mint seems to deliver to every country in the world, with three exceptions: Lebanon, Russia, and... the UK.

    https://www.monnaiedeparis.fr/en/general-terms-and-conditions-online-shop
    "The items ordered are delivered to metropolitan France, overseas departments and regions (DOM/ROM) and overseas communities (COM), to countries of the European Union and countries outside the European Union, with the exception of Lebanon, Russia and the United-Kingdom."

    That seems quite bizarre.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,335

    About as OT as one can get, but for reasons that must remain mysterious I've discovered that the French mint seems to deliver to every country in the world, with three exceptions: Lebanon, Russia, and... the UK.

    https://www.monnaiedeparis.fr/en/general-terms-and-conditions-online-shop
    "The items ordered are delivered to metropolitan France, overseas departments and regions (DOM/ROM) and overseas communities (COM), to countries of the European Union and countries outside the European Union, with the exception of Lebanon, Russia and the United-Kingdom."

    That seems quite bizarre.

    They don't send illegals over to do deliveries for them? How quaint! :lol:
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    "FAKE NEWS from the RADICAL LEFT LUNATICS! It's being knocked down with MY CONSENT! THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER!"
    I didn't realise you were so important.
  • CumberlandGapCumberlandGap Posts: 36
    edited October 21
    dixiedean said:

    A Reform government to put Police operational control under them.
    Great.

    Inevitable consequence of an out of control police force. In the past they would have jumped when the Home Office reigned them in. But they, along with the college of policing have acted with distain for political realities. Conservative Home Secretaries were having so little impact on policing they resorted to writing letters to The Times complaining about how they were ignored. I'm guessing Labour are having similar issues.

    It's not just the police, the judiciary also. The people we put in power have lost the indirect control and influence over public servants. The indirect was always sufficient. A nod, a wink, a quiet word. All meaning the same thing. We dont need to directly tell you what to do in every situation, but you need to take heed of our considerations and concerns. When that breaks down you have what we have now.

    Taking direct control is a recipe for further disaster, but dont think it's Reform that has brought the need about.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267
    dixiedean said:

    A Reform government to put Police operational control under them.
    Great.

    The Farage Gestapo. That might work.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,001

    About as OT as one can get, but for reasons that must remain mysterious I've discovered that the French mint seems to deliver to every country in the world, with three exceptions: Lebanon, Russia, and... the UK.

    https://www.monnaiedeparis.fr/en/general-terms-and-conditions-online-shop
    "The items ordered are delivered to metropolitan France, overseas departments and regions (DOM/ROM) and overseas communities (COM), to countries of the European Union and countries outside the European Union, with the exception of Lebanon, Russia and the United-Kingdom."

    That seems quite bizarre.

    There are such exceptions of all sorts with companies doing export to retail buyers. Often to do with import taxation issues, sometimes temporary (imports into the US by private individuals have been very disrupted of late, thanks to the abolition of de minimis, and many firms wouldn't sell to those buyers simply because it was impossible to deal with the new taxation reliably); Canada Post is on strike, etc.). But it could just be experience of problems with customs paperwork or local couriers (to give an absurd example within the UK, some firms use couriers that won't deliver to much of Scotland).
  • Nigelb said:

    This is inevitable.
    Brown increased car taxes, both direct and indirect, a lot during his time as Chancellor. But environmental incentives steadily increased, too.
    That has continued.

    With EV incentives, and the big rise in EV registrations ,the tax gulf has become insurmountable without major modification.

    Rachel Reeves is considering taxes on electric vehicle drivers based on their car’s weight or a pay-per-mile system
    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1979283231745724730

    Presumably, this will have been a cherished Treasury scheme, in planning for a number of years.

    My new road tax came in for a four year old cheapo fully electric car.. £200...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,024

    dixiedean said:

    A Reform government to put Police operational control under them.
    Great.

    The Farage Gestapo. That might work.
    Surely that's the Farrago?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,402

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,402
    Nigelb said:

    Does Johnson have dementia, too ?

    The Pentagon’s gone dark, and Johnson’s calling it “transparency.”

    JONATHAN KARL: “The guy’s (Hegseth) only had two briefings since he became Secretary of Defense… they’ve basically forced the Pentagon press out of the building…”

    SPEAKER JOHNSON: “I can’t remember… a Secretary of Defense who has been so transparent.”

    https://x.com/cwebbonline/status/1980285856645861695

    To be fair to Johnson, Hegseth has been absolutely transparent in his attempt to avoid scrutiny
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,421
    Nigelb said:

    This is the way.

    "Poland will force Putin's plane to land for arrest," - Foreign Minister Sikorski said that the country cannot guarantee the safe flight of the plane over its territory.
    https://x.com/UkrReview/status/1980553257706819904

    Bold. What happens if they shoot it down?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    Ted Heath threw Enoch Powell out of the party for a less egregious commentary.

    Starmer's failure to question her statement is a remarkable dereliction of duty.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,210
    Have a great holiday TSE
  • Nigelb said:

    Does Johnson have dementia, too ?

    The Pentagon’s gone dark, and Johnson’s calling it “transparency.”

    JONATHAN KARL: “The guy’s (Hegseth) only had two briefings since he became Secretary of Defense… they’ve basically forced the Pentagon press out of the building…”

    SPEAKER JOHNSON: “I can’t remember… a Secretary of Defense who has been so transparent.”

    https://x.com/cwebbonline/status/1980285856645861695

    Hegseth's tie the other day made his position on Russia/Ukraine painfully transparent, to be fair.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267
    If we have learned anything from Boris Johnson's performance today is that the true victim of COVID was Boris Johnson.

    Regrets? He has a few. Not sacking Ministers like Gavin Williamson being some of them.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,665
    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,665

    About as OT as one can get, but for reasons that must remain mysterious I've discovered that the French mint seems to deliver to every country in the world, with three exceptions: Lebanon, Russia, and... the UK.

    https://www.monnaiedeparis.fr/en/general-terms-and-conditions-online-shop
    "The items ordered are delivered to metropolitan France, overseas departments and regions (DOM/ROM) and overseas communities (COM), to countries of the European Union and countries outside the European Union, with the exception of Lebanon, Russia and the United-Kingdom."

    That seems quite bizarre.

    They most likely stopped deliveries to UK when there was some uncertainty over customs and import rules, and haven’t got around to changing it back.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,576
    "A pardoned Capitol rioter was arrested last weekend for allegedly threatening to kill House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries."

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m3pcaeffbk2f
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,371
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,087
    Scott_xP said:

    "A pardoned Capitol rioter was arrested last weekend for allegedly threatening to kill House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries."

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m3pcaeffbk2f

    Maybe they will be pardoned again
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,576
    @chriso-wiki.bsky.social‬

    1/ Russian convicts are refusing en masse to join the army, according to the jailed Igor 'Strelkov' Girkin. In contrast to Yevgeny Prigozhin's recruitment campaigns in 2022-23, which attracted tens of thousands of recruits, distrust of the army is now said to be universal.

    https://bsky.app/profile/chriso-wiki.bsky.social/post/3m3ottppci22e
  • Pulpstar said:


    eek said:

    Another day, another poor set of borrowing figures. And yet no politician wanting to confront the elephant in the room I.e. the amount of people out of work, subsidised by an ever smaller pool of workers.

    Has anyone seen the migration watch data? There’s literally large towns and cities in the UK now that 1) were not born here and 2) are in subsidised social housing and do not work https://x.com/migrationwatch/status/1980544332470895088?s=46&t=2iv1prQ4P8HyMrM-UX0Dig

    Top that off with the ridiculous gamble on carbon capture, NHS improvement, making it more expensive to employ people etc, and we are doomed. No wonder people are fed up

    Slight problem if those people have citizenship then chances are they were given it while the Tories were in power between 2010 and 2024.

    Remember Labour started with a very poor hand in 2024 and this is an example of issues created previously which can never be fixed
    There are many things to criticise the previous government for but Burngreave became a taxpayer subsidised immigrant ghetto long before 2010.
    I work in the (what's left !) of the industrial area there.
    Behold what we once had:


    Used to drive through there twice a day in the mid-late 90s. Like going through urban canyons.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,269

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    What did she say?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,714
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    What would have worked would have been assembling a simple, direct case, based on the Jan 6 stuff.

    A couple of charges, supporting evidence. Not wait 4 years to do nothing.

    I know, this wouldn’t provide sexual satisfaction for lawyers who need (as a human right) a complex case to argue up and down the courts of appeal.

    The whole point of the Al Capone tax thing was that once the ring master is in jail, you go after the rest at your leisure.

    The following things aren’t jailing Trump

    - Talking about jailing Trump
    - Thinking about it
    - Writing articles about it
    - Campaigning about it
    - Printing T-shirts about it
    - Prosecuting him for civil suits in jurisdiction controlled by MAGA
    - Saying you need more than 4 years to present a case.
  • viewcode said:

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    What did she say?
    Tory MP sparks backlash after calling for legal migrants to 'go home' to make Britain ‘culturally coherent’

    Katie Lam said many migrants who came to Britain legally will 'need to go home'


    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-lam-backlash-migrants-culturally-coherent-5HjdFgC_2/
  • Our latest Westminster voting intention (19-20 Oct) has the Greens on their highest figure ever recorded by YouGov

    Reform UK: 26% (-1 from 12-13 Oct)
    Labour: 20% (=)
    Conservatives: 17% (=)
    Lib Dems: 15% (-1)
    Greens: 15% (+2)
    SNP: 4% (+1)


    https://x.com/yougov/status/1980596985192427849?s=61&t=c6bcp0cjChLfQN5Tc8A_6g
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,269

    viewcode said:

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    What did she say?
    Tory MP sparks backlash after calling for legal migrants to 'go home' to make Britain ‘culturally coherent’

    Katie Lam said many migrants who came to Britain legally will 'need to go home'


    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-lam-backlash-migrants-culturally-coherent-5HjdFgC_2/
    Yikes!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,446

    viewcode said:

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    What did she say?
    Tory MP sparks backlash after calling for legal migrants to 'go home' to make Britain ‘culturally coherent’

    Katie Lam said many migrants who came to Britain legally will 'need to go home'


    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-lam-backlash-migrants-culturally-coherent-5HjdFgC_2/
    I find Badenoch quite incoherent at times.

    Who decides? What criteria? If she can't or won't answer those then it is just cheap and dumb racism.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,659

    Pulpstar said:


    eek said:

    Another day, another poor set of borrowing figures. And yet no politician wanting to confront the elephant in the room I.e. the amount of people out of work, subsidised by an ever smaller pool of workers.

    Has anyone seen the migration watch data? There’s literally large towns and cities in the UK now that 1) were not born here and 2) are in subsidised social housing and do not work https://x.com/migrationwatch/status/1980544332470895088?s=46&t=2iv1prQ4P8HyMrM-UX0Dig

    Top that off with the ridiculous gamble on carbon capture, NHS improvement, making it more expensive to employ people etc, and we are doomed. No wonder people are fed up

    Slight problem if those people have citizenship then chances are they were given it while the Tories were in power between 2010 and 2024.

    Remember Labour started with a very poor hand in 2024 and this is an example of issues created previously which can never be fixed
    There are many things to criticise the previous government for but Burngreave became a taxpayer subsidised immigrant ghetto long before 2010.
    I work in the (what's left !) of the industrial area there.
    Behold what we once had:


    Used to drive through there twice a day in the mid-late 90s. Like going through urban canyons.
    There's a street in Dundee called Peep O' day lane. It was called that because it was once possible to see no more than a glimmer of light at the bottom of it with the huge Jute factories on both sides blotting out the light. All are now demolished and most of that ground has been derelict my entire adult life. A tiny trace of what we once had.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,665
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,402
    viewcode said:

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    What did she say?
    I only saw a reported article not a quote, but essentially that even people who have legally immigrated to the UK might be required to leave.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,146
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    You'll be piling on for Sarkozy to be next President of France then.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,858
    What Katie said.

    "There are also a large number of people in this country who came here legally, but in effect shouldn’t have been able to do so. It’s not the fault of the individuals who came here, they just shouldn’t have been able to do so.

    They will also need to go home. What that will leave is a mostly but not entirely culturally coherent group of people."

    You can see why she's a rising star.
  • Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    You have a real blind spot when it comes to Trump.

    Trying to steal an election by getting people to create votes for example isn’t spurious.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,947
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    Spurious of reasons??

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,277
    edited October 21

    viewcode said:

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    What did she say?
    Tory MP sparks backlash after calling for legal migrants to 'go home' to make Britain ‘culturally coherent’

    Katie Lam said many migrants who came to Britain legally will 'need to go home'


    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-lam-backlash-migrants-culturally-coherent-5HjdFgC_2/
    I find Badenoch quite incoherent at times.

    Who decides? What criteria? If she can't or won't answer those then it is just cheap and dumb racism.
    a) Katie Lam decides.
    b) People like Katie Lam can stay, but that's about it.

    From the original Sunday Times piece;

    When Katie Lam was a teenager, she would sometimes debate immigration with her 90-year-old grandfather. The usual political age dynamic did not apply. Her grandfather, whose extended Dutch Jewish family died in Sobibor and Auschwitz, favoured open borders. Lam drew the opposite conclusion from their history: that it was essential to conserve what was precious about Britain by restricting who came here.

    “Even as a teenager,” she recalls. “I was like, ‘Grandpa, this is nuts, where is everybody going to live?’”


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/6e05a01a-1d2a-468a-98f5-e32e0015f210?shareToken=0a02da2dde3a751e08e479ed953e4d65
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,947

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    Spurious of reasons??

    Oh I'm sorry, I didn't get that you were being sarcastic.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267

    viewcode said:

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    What did she say?
    Tory MP sparks backlash after calling for legal migrants to 'go home' to make Britain ‘culturally coherent’

    Katie Lam said many migrants who came to Britain legally will 'need to go home'


    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-lam-backlash-migrants-culturally-coherent-5HjdFgC_2/
    I find Badenoch quite incoherent at times.

    Who decides? What criteria? If she can't or won't answer those then it is just cheap and dumb racism.
    Even more ludicrous is that Starmer hasn't commented.
  • trukattrukat Posts: 81
    dixiedean said:

    What Katie said.

    "There are also a large number of people in this country who came here legally, but in effect shouldn’t have been able to do so. It’s not the fault of the individuals who came here, they just shouldn’t have been able to do so.

    They will also need to go home. What that will leave is a mostly but not entirely culturally coherent group of people."

    You can see why she's a rising star.

    She is an idiot. no one who wants a policy like that would ever trust the Tories to implement it, and why should they after the last 14 years. All she is doing is pissing off quite a lot of her current vote. Someone needs to get hold of these move right of Advance UK types and explain that it will never work.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,446

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    Because her party is led by such a person and the party purports to represent all of us, not just those who pass her purity test. If she wants to go down that route there is not just the BNP but plenty of splinter parties forming every few months.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267
    trukat said:

    dixiedean said:

    What Katie said.

    "There are also a large number of people in this country who came here legally, but in effect shouldn’t have been able to do so. It’s not the fault of the individuals who came here, they just shouldn’t have been able to do so.

    They will also need to go home. What that will leave is a mostly but not entirely culturally coherent group of people."

    You can see why she's a rising star.

    She is an idiot. no one who wants a policy like that would ever trust the Tories to implement it, and why should they after the last 14 years. All she is doing is pissing off quite a lot of her current vote. Someone needs to get hold of these move right of Advance UK types and explain that it will never work.
    She is cosplay Fatch, and many on here have proposed her as a future Tory PM.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,446

    viewcode said:

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    What did she say?
    Tory MP sparks backlash after calling for legal migrants to 'go home' to make Britain ‘culturally coherent’

    Katie Lam said many migrants who came to Britain legally will 'need to go home'


    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-lam-backlash-migrants-culturally-coherent-5HjdFgC_2/
    I find Badenoch quite incoherent at times.

    Who decides? What criteria? If she can't or won't answer those then it is just cheap and dumb racism.
    Even more ludicrous is that Starmer hasn't commented.
    When your opponent is making a mistake, don't interrupt them.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,810

    Sandpit said:

    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @yarotrof

    With Russia unwilling to drop its demands for a Ukrainian surrender of Donbas as a precondition to a ceasefire, it starts looking doubtful that the Budapest summit between Putin and Trump will happen anytime soon, if at all. The Lavrov-Rubio preparatory meeting, which Trump said was scheduled for this week, hasn’t been agreed to by Russia and, as per Lavrov deputy Ryabkov, “requires additional preparation.”

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1980529712137953587

    So Putin has managed to forestall the supply of Tomahawks by promising Trump a peace summit which now isn't going to happen?

    I can't decide between Trump being an idiot who is easily played by Putin, or actively malign who is cooperating with Putin to deflect pressure on him to act from the Republicans who would support Ukraine. Maybe it's a mix?

    If Europe as a whole gets its act together the war can be won. And that will be easier done now than when Le Pen is running France and Farage is running Britain. Get on with it.
    It doesn’t have to be big ticket items - I saw this cool thing in the Sun this morning which demonstrated that a bit of ingenuity can be as good as a lot of expensive kit, basically the British Space force engineers cobbled together launchers made up of chassis from APCs and missile rails from obsolete jets like the Jaguar and Tornado and have supplied the relevant missiles and created a successful mobile missile platform in a few months.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/37071931/british-missile-launchers-downing-russian-rockets-drones/
    There’s been lots of that going on. To the fury of big ticket contractors who see such expedients as stopping them getting proper programs at a proper price. Plus creating history that such things can be cheap.
    How would today’s contractors have coped in WWII?

    They still haven’t clicked that wartime procurement looks very different from peacetime procurement.

    When there’s peace, you maintain the industrial capability and push the future technology, but when there’s a war on you just want shedloads of last year’s weapons and want them yesterday.
    Air Marshall Harris suggested that he could take 12 months off the war, if he was allowed to shoot a few hundred civil servants and senior management in the aircraft industry.

    Highlights

    - Harris personally authorised, against the wish of officials, an improved gun mounting for the Hampden. Told the manufacturers of the mountings he would be personally be liable, financially.
    - The System telling him that increasing the size of the Lancaster escape hatch was impossible. Even for next years production.
    - The continued production of the Stirling
    - the Rose turret saga
    - Etc
    We could probably have knocked a year off the war by sacking Harris. The area bombing campaign, whatever you think of its morality, was ludicrously ineffective until better navigation, first by onboard radar and then by properly using onboard radar, meant bombs could be dropped within 50 yards of the target rather than within five miles.

    It might also have freed Lancasters (for their range, not capacity) for the Battle of the Atlantic.

    ETA it would also have saved British lives. Directly, aircrew had a 50 per cent death rate per tour. Indirectly, bombing German arms factories rather than French farmers' fields would have starved Nazis of weapons to shoot back.
    I totally and utterly disagree. One of the reasons we were able to invade in 1944 was due to the efforts of bomber command. Yes they were shit to start with. But they got better with experience and innovation. Harris was resistant to switching to the transportation plan but when directly ordered he complied. As a result, with the 8th Air Force bombing by day and bomber command by night the Germans were massively impeded in what they could do. Look at how long it took Das Reich to reach the battle.

    Now you can argue about priorities, but actually to learn to bomb meant you had to bomb. And yes the casualties were horrific, but arguably those lost in the air were compensated by those saved on the ground.

    I think you will struggle to show how you shave a year off the war. When was your D-Day?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,798
    nico67 said:

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling bto censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    In previous times calling for the deportation of people legally here would have been met with a much bigger blowback . Lams comments are appalling and instead of calling them out properly Labours response has been pathetic .

    I truly despair at the state of the discourse around immigration in the UK .
    On brand and I have money on her replacing Kemi as leader. There is something of the night about her.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267
    edited October 21

    viewcode said:

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    What did she say?
    Tory MP sparks backlash after calling for legal migrants to 'go home' to make Britain ‘culturally coherent’

    Katie Lam said many migrants who came to Britain legally will 'need to go home'


    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-lam-backlash-migrants-culturally-coherent-5HjdFgC_2/
    I find Badenoch quite incoherent at times.

    Who decides? What criteria? If she can't or won't answer those then it is just cheap and dumb racism.
    Even more ludicrous is that Starmer hasn't commented.
    When your opponent is making a mistake, don't interrupt them.
    The Conservatives have recently scored wins over the Government with Rayner, Mandelson, China, Aston Villa and Prince Andrew. Starmer can't even slot in an open goal.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,104

    trukat said:

    dixiedean said:

    What Katie said.

    "There are also a large number of people in this country who came here legally, but in effect shouldn’t have been able to do so. It’s not the fault of the individuals who came here, they just shouldn’t have been able to do so.

    They will also need to go home. What that will leave is a mostly but not entirely culturally coherent group of people."

    You can see why she's a rising star.

    She is an idiot. no one who wants a policy like that would ever trust the Tories to implement it, and why should they after the last 14 years. All she is doing is pissing off quite a lot of her current vote. Someone needs to get hold of these move right of Advance UK types and explain that it will never work.
    She is cosplay Fatch, and many on here have proposed her as a future Tory PM.
    Doesn't she realise that people who really want a "culturally coherent group of people" aren't going to want to let her stay in the country, let alone vote for her?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,810

    If we have learned anything from Boris Johnson's performance today is that the true victim of COVID was Boris Johnson.

    Regrets? He has a few. Not sacking Ministers like Gavin Williamson being some of them.

    I have long argued that this is true. Obviously its a bit trite as many hundreds of thousands died or knew people who died but it is undeniable that any chance Johnson had of a good run as PM was demolished by Covid. I still think he would have been undone by his character flaws in the end, but there might have been a year or two of boosterism to make the nation feel good before that happened.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    How do you feel about Comey, James and Bolton spuriously prosecuted on the instruction of Al Capone?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,810
    dixiedean said:

    What Katie said.

    "There are also a large number of people in this country who came here legally, but in effect shouldn’t have been able to do so. It’s not the fault of the individuals who came here, they just shouldn’t have been able to do so.

    They will also need to go home. What that will leave is a mostly but not entirely culturally coherent group of people."

    You can see why she's a rising star.

    Like Farage a lot of people will agree with her.

    Probably not many on PB, mind. (Unless we truly count all Leon's personas, and if he's ever allowed back).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,335

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    "FAKE NEWS from the RADICAL LEFT LUNATICS! It's being knocked down with MY CONSENT! THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER!"
    I didn't realise you were so important.
    "It's gonna be BEAUTIFUL!"
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,665

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    You have a real blind spot when it comes to Trump.

    Trying to steal an election by getting people to create votes for example isn’t spurious.
    “Create Votes”, is that a quote from Trump?

    I know that he called the guy in Georgia and asked him to “please find 11,000 votes” as he was recounting, but that’s very different.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267

    If we have learned anything from Boris Johnson's performance today is that the true victim of COVID was Boris Johnson.

    Regrets? He has a few. Not sacking Ministers like Gavin Williamson being some of them.

    I have long argued that this is true. Obviously its a bit trite as many hundreds of thousands died or knew people who died but it is undeniable that any chance Johnson had of a good run as PM was demolished by Covid. I still think he would have been undone by his character flaws in the end, but there might have been a year or two of boosterism to make the nation feel good before that happened.
    He was particularly exercised by his own backstabbing* Cabinet colleagues. "Infamy, infamy, they all had it infamy"**.

    * and **. My interpretation, but I am not wrong if you listen to his tetchy performance when questioned by the Lefty Lawyer.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,335

    viewcode said:

    James O'Brien critical of Kemi and Starmer for not calling to censure Katie Lam. Lib Dems have broken rank.

    Why should she be censured?

    Disagree with her, convince people she is wrong. But she’s not broken any rules or done more than state her opinion
    What did she say?
    Tory MP sparks backlash after calling for legal migrants to 'go home' to make Britain ‘culturally coherent’

    Katie Lam said many migrants who came to Britain legally will 'need to go home'


    https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/katie-lam-backlash-migrants-culturally-coherent-5HjdFgC_2/
    And if they resist?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,335

    Our latest Westminster voting intention (19-20 Oct) has the Greens on their highest figure ever recorded by YouGov

    Reform UK: 26% (-1 from 12-13 Oct)
    Labour: 20% (=)
    Conservatives: 17% (=)
    Lib Dems: 15% (-1)
    Greens: 15% (+2)
    SNP: 4% (+1)


    https://x.com/yougov/status/1980596985192427849?s=61&t=c6bcp0cjChLfQN5Tc8A_6g

    Broken, sleazy Reform and LibDems on the slide!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,147
    edited October 21
    Jenrick would "probably ban the burqa".

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1980584395397582922

    Jenrick and Lam so far today. Wonder who's next.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267
    edited October 21
    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick would "probably ban the burqa".

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1980584395397582922

    Jenrick and Lam so far today. Wonder who's next.

    Conservatives engaged in a game of Top Trumps: Racists Edition.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,335

    Nigelb said:

    This is inevitable.
    Brown increased car taxes, both direct and indirect, a lot during his time as Chancellor. But environmental incentives steadily increased, too.
    That has continued.

    With EV incentives, and the big rise in EV registrations ,the tax gulf has become insurmountable without major modification.

    Rachel Reeves is considering taxes on electric vehicle drivers based on their car’s weight or a pay-per-mile system
    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1979283231745724730

    Presumably, this will have been a cherished Treasury scheme, in planning for a number of years.

    My new road tax came in for a four year old cheapo fully electric car.. £200...
    Eh? My 15 year-old evil, polluting, non-ULEZ compliant banger was £210 back in April :open_mouth:
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,659

    Nigelb said:

    This is inevitable.
    Brown increased car taxes, both direct and indirect, a lot during his time as Chancellor. But environmental incentives steadily increased, too.
    That has continued.

    With EV incentives, and the big rise in EV registrations ,the tax gulf has become insurmountable without major modification.

    Rachel Reeves is considering taxes on electric vehicle drivers based on their car’s weight or a pay-per-mile system
    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1979283231745724730

    Presumably, this will have been a cherished Treasury scheme, in planning for a number of years.

    My new road tax came in for a four year old cheapo fully electric car.. £200...
    Eh? My 15 year-old evil, polluting, non-ULEZ compliant banger was £210 back in April :open_mouth:
    You ought to try traveling by train instead!
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,529

    Our latest Westminster voting intention (19-20 Oct) has the Greens on their highest figure ever recorded by YouGov

    Reform UK: 26% (-1 from 12-13 Oct)
    Labour: 20% (=)
    Conservatives: 17% (=)
    Lib Dems: 15% (-1)
    Greens: 15% (+2)
    SNP: 4% (+1)


    https://x.com/yougov/status/1980596985192427849?s=61&t=c6bcp0cjChLfQN5Tc8A_6g

    Green versus Reform as main two parties next election?

    I imagine there's still plenty of soft Labour support that would be willing to vote for a more ideological alternative.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267

    If we have learned anything from Boris Johnson's performance today is that the true victim of COVID was Boris Johnson.

    Regrets? He has a few. Not sacking Ministers like Gavin Williamson being some of them.

    I have long argued that this is true. Obviously its a bit trite as many hundreds of thousands died or knew people who died but it is undeniable that any chance Johnson had of a good run as PM was demolished by Covid. I still think he would have been undone by his character flaws in the end, but there might have been a year or two of boosterism to make the nation feel good before that happened.
    In the face of adversity he could have become the greatest post war Prime Minister, but before, during and after the pandemic he chose grift and a dereliction of duty.

    In the early stages of the pandemic we were all on board. We looked to Johnson for leadership. He was given so many benefits of the doubt.

    If only Johnson had waited another year to defenestrate Theresa May.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,865
    edited October 21
    Afternoon all.

    Troubled times we're liviing in, when the Tory Party is moving towards an open embrace of ultranationalist rhetoric.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,455

    Sandpit said:

    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @yarotrof

    With Russia unwilling to drop its demands for a Ukrainian surrender of Donbas as a precondition to a ceasefire, it starts looking doubtful that the Budapest summit between Putin and Trump will happen anytime soon, if at all. The Lavrov-Rubio preparatory meeting, which Trump said was scheduled for this week, hasn’t been agreed to by Russia and, as per Lavrov deputy Ryabkov, “requires additional preparation.”

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1980529712137953587

    So Putin has managed to forestall the supply of Tomahawks by promising Trump a peace summit which now isn't going to happen?

    I can't decide between Trump being an idiot who is easily played by Putin, or actively malign who is cooperating with Putin to deflect pressure on him to act from the Republicans who would support Ukraine. Maybe it's a mix?

    If Europe as a whole gets its act together the war can be won. And that will be easier done now than when Le Pen is running France and Farage is running Britain. Get on with it.
    It doesn’t have to be big ticket items - I saw this cool thing in the Sun this morning which demonstrated that a bit of ingenuity can be as good as a lot of expensive kit, basically the British Space force engineers cobbled together launchers made up of chassis from APCs and missile rails from obsolete jets like the Jaguar and Tornado and have supplied the relevant missiles and created a successful mobile missile platform in a few months.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/37071931/british-missile-launchers-downing-russian-rockets-drones/
    There’s been lots of that going on. To the fury of big ticket contractors who see such expedients as stopping them getting proper programs at a proper price. Plus creating history that such things can be cheap.
    How would today’s contractors have coped in WWII?

    They still haven’t clicked that wartime procurement looks very different from peacetime procurement.

    When there’s peace, you maintain the industrial capability and push the future technology, but when there’s a war on you just want shedloads of last year’s weapons and want them yesterday.
    Air Marshall Harris suggested that he could take 12 months off the war, if he was allowed to shoot a few hundred civil servants and senior management in the aircraft industry.

    Highlights

    - Harris personally authorised, against the wish of officials, an improved gun mounting for the Hampden. Told the manufacturers of the mountings he would be personally be liable, financially.
    - The System telling him that increasing the size of the Lancaster escape hatch was impossible. Even for next years production.
    - The continued production of the Stirling
    - the Rose turret saga
    - Etc
    We could probably have knocked a year off the war by sacking Harris. The area bombing campaign, whatever you think of its morality, was ludicrously ineffective until better navigation, first by onboard radar and then by properly using onboard radar, meant bombs could be dropped within 50 yards of the target rather than within five miles.

    It might also have freed Lancasters (for their range, not capacity) for the Battle of the Atlantic.

    ETA it would also have saved British lives. Directly, aircrew had a 50 per cent death rate per tour. Indirectly, bombing German arms factories rather than French farmers' fields would have starved Nazis of weapons to shoot back.
    I totally and utterly disagree. One of the reasons we were able to invade in 1944 was due to the efforts of bomber command. Yes they were shit to start with. But they got better with experience and innovation. Harris was resistant to switching to the transportation plan but when directly ordered he complied. As a result, with the 8th Air Force bombing by day and bomber command by night the Germans were massively impeded in what they could do. Look at how long it took Das Reich to reach the battle.

    Now you can argue about priorities, but actually to learn to bomb meant you had to bomb. And yes the casualties were horrific, but arguably those lost in the air were compensated by those saved on the ground.

    I think you will struggle to show how you shave a year off the war. When was your D-Day?
    Das Reich was slowed by the French Resistance, and was in the wrong place to start with thanks to Allied disinformation.

    D-day could probably have been a year earlier but that had more to do with Churchill's inability to read a map.

    You say bombing improved with innovation. That is my point too. Specifically onboard radar. Until then, Coastal Command could have made better use of the planes.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,921

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick would "probably ban the burqa".

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1980584395397582922

    Jenrick and Lam so far today. Wonder who's next.

    Conservatives engaged in a game of Top Trumps: Racists Edition.
    Yes. It has no relevance to 95% of us, but is vice signalling to the moronic tendency. Few things could demonstrate that the Tories have learned nothing from their crushing a bare 15 months ago. They need to get onto economics quickly- the punters do not like this nasty party crap, but are prepared to give them a hearing on business and the economy- not the tax cutting agenda, but the "we are responsible" agenda. Trouble is that the number of MPs that could come up with something even worth discussing, never mind financially literate- Hunt, Mitchell- is less than the fingers on one hand.

    So more posturing bullshit on immigration, race and the US culture wars and the collapse continues.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,810

    Sandpit said:

    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @yarotrof

    With Russia unwilling to drop its demands for a Ukrainian surrender of Donbas as a precondition to a ceasefire, it starts looking doubtful that the Budapest summit between Putin and Trump will happen anytime soon, if at all. The Lavrov-Rubio preparatory meeting, which Trump said was scheduled for this week, hasn’t been agreed to by Russia and, as per Lavrov deputy Ryabkov, “requires additional preparation.”

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1980529712137953587

    So Putin has managed to forestall the supply of Tomahawks by promising Trump a peace summit which now isn't going to happen?

    I can't decide between Trump being an idiot who is easily played by Putin, or actively malign who is cooperating with Putin to deflect pressure on him to act from the Republicans who would support Ukraine. Maybe it's a mix?

    If Europe as a whole gets its act together the war can be won. And that will be easier done now than when Le Pen is running France and Farage is running Britain. Get on with it.
    It doesn’t have to be big ticket items - I saw this cool thing in the Sun this morning which demonstrated that a bit of ingenuity can be as good as a lot of expensive kit, basically the British Space force engineers cobbled together launchers made up of chassis from APCs and missile rails from obsolete jets like the Jaguar and Tornado and have supplied the relevant missiles and created a successful mobile missile platform in a few months.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/37071931/british-missile-launchers-downing-russian-rockets-drones/
    There’s been lots of that going on. To the fury of big ticket contractors who see such expedients as stopping them getting proper programs at a proper price. Plus creating history that such things can be cheap.
    How would today’s contractors have coped in WWII?

    They still haven’t clicked that wartime procurement looks very different from peacetime procurement.

    When there’s peace, you maintain the industrial capability and push the future technology, but when there’s a war on you just want shedloads of last year’s weapons and want them yesterday.
    Air Marshall Harris suggested that he could take 12 months off the war, if he was allowed to shoot a few hundred civil servants and senior management in the aircraft industry.

    Highlights

    - Harris personally authorised, against the wish of officials, an improved gun mounting for the Hampden. Told the manufacturers of the mountings he would be personally be liable, financially.
    - The System telling him that increasing the size of the Lancaster escape hatch was impossible. Even for next years production.
    - The continued production of the Stirling
    - the Rose turret saga
    - Etc
    We could probably have knocked a year off the war by sacking Harris. The area bombing campaign, whatever you think of its morality, was ludicrously ineffective until better navigation, first by onboard radar and then by properly using onboard radar, meant bombs could be dropped within 50 yards of the target rather than within five miles.

    It might also have freed Lancasters (for their range, not capacity) for the Battle of the Atlantic.

    ETA it would also have saved British lives. Directly, aircrew had a 50 per cent death rate per tour. Indirectly, bombing German arms factories rather than French farmers' fields would have starved Nazis of weapons to shoot back.
    I totally and utterly disagree. One of the reasons we were able to invade in 1944 was due to the efforts of bomber command. Yes they were shit to start with. But they got better with experience and innovation. Harris was resistant to switching to the transportation plan but when directly ordered he complied. As a result, with the 8th Air Force bombing by day and bomber command by night the Germans were massively impeded in what they could do. Look at how long it took Das Reich to reach the battle.

    Now you can argue about priorities, but actually to learn to bomb meant you had to bomb. And yes the casualties were horrific, but arguably those lost in the air were compensated by those saved on the ground.

    I think you will struggle to show how you shave a year off the war. When was your D-Day?
    Das Reich was slowed by the French Resistance, and was in the wrong place to start with thanks to Allied disinformation.

    D-day could probably have been a year earlier but that had more to do with Churchill's inability to read a map.

    You say bombing improved with innovation. That is my point too. Specifically onboard radar. Until then, Coastal Command could have made better use of the planes.
    But the innovation came from experience in the bombing raids. D-Day a year earlier was not really possible - the Americans hadn't built up enough, there weren't enough landing craft etc. Yes Das Reich was impeded by the resistance, but also anything moving in France was hit by the RAF/US 8th Air Force. And the ability to do that came with experience.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,657

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    How do you feel about Comey, James and Bolton spuriously prosecuted on the instruction of Al Capone?
    James was elected in a platform of getting Trump, she’s at the FO stage of FAFO

    Boulton clearly has questions to answer, even the left w8ng US media says that.

    Comey, probably innocent.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,087
    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick would "probably ban the burqa".

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1980584395397582922

    Jenrick and Lam so far today. Wonder who's next.

    Conservatives engaged in a game of Top Trumps: Racists Edition.
    Yes. It has no relevance to 95% of us, but is vice signalling to the moronic tendency. Few things could demonstrate that the Tories have learned nothing from their crushing a bare 15 months ago. They need to get onto economics quickly- the punters do not like this nasty party crap, but are prepared to give them a hearing on business and the economy- not the tax cutting agenda, but the "we are responsible" agenda. Trouble is that the number of MPs that could come up with something even worth discussing, never mind financially literate- Hunt, Mitchell- is less than the fingers on one hand.

    So more posturing bullshit on immigration, race and the US culture wars and the collapse continues.
    There is no economic solution that is acceptable to the electorate so we have culture war instead.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,524
    edited October 21
    dixiedean said:

    What Katie said.

    "There are also a large number of people in this country who came here legally, but in effect shouldn’t have been able to do so. It’s not the fault of the individuals who came here, they just shouldn’t have been able to do so.

    They will also need to go home. What that will leave is a mostly but not entirely culturally coherent group of people."

    You can see why she's a rising star.

    Wow. She needs to specify who exactly will be caught in the net to be forcibly repatriated. Those people will need some time to put their affairs in order before expulsion. That would only be fair.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,001

    Sandpit said:

    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @yarotrof

    With Russia unwilling to drop its demands for a Ukrainian surrender of Donbas as a precondition to a ceasefire, it starts looking doubtful that the Budapest summit between Putin and Trump will happen anytime soon, if at all. The Lavrov-Rubio preparatory meeting, which Trump said was scheduled for this week, hasn’t been agreed to by Russia and, as per Lavrov deputy Ryabkov, “requires additional preparation.”

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1980529712137953587

    So Putin has managed to forestall the supply of Tomahawks by promising Trump a peace summit which now isn't going to happen?

    I can't decide between Trump being an idiot who is easily played by Putin, or actively malign who is cooperating with Putin to deflect pressure on him to act from the Republicans who would support Ukraine. Maybe it's a mix?

    If Europe as a whole gets its act together the war can be won. And that will be easier done now than when Le Pen is running France and Farage is running Britain. Get on with it.
    It doesn’t have to be big ticket items - I saw this cool thing in the Sun this morning which demonstrated that a bit of ingenuity can be as good as a lot of expensive kit, basically the British Space force engineers cobbled together launchers made up of chassis from APCs and missile rails from obsolete jets like the Jaguar and Tornado and have supplied the relevant missiles and created a successful mobile missile platform in a few months.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/37071931/british-missile-launchers-downing-russian-rockets-drones/
    There’s been lots of that going on. To the fury of big ticket contractors who see such expedients as stopping them getting proper programs at a proper price. Plus creating history that such things can be cheap.
    How would today’s contractors have coped in WWII?

    They still haven’t clicked that wartime procurement looks very different from peacetime procurement.

    When there’s peace, you maintain the industrial capability and push the future technology, but when there’s a war on you just want shedloads of last year’s weapons and want them yesterday.
    Air Marshall Harris suggested that he could take 12 months off the war, if he was allowed to shoot a few hundred civil servants and senior management in the aircraft industry.

    Highlights

    - Harris personally authorised, against the wish of officials, an improved gun mounting for the Hampden. Told the manufacturers of the mountings he would be personally be liable, financially.
    - The System telling him that increasing the size of the Lancaster escape hatch was impossible. Even for next years production.
    - The continued production of the Stirling
    - the Rose turret saga
    - Etc
    We could probably have knocked a year off the war by sacking Harris. The area bombing campaign, whatever you think of its morality, was ludicrously ineffective until better navigation, first by onboard radar and then by properly using onboard radar, meant bombs could be dropped within 50 yards of the target rather than within five miles.

    It might also have freed Lancasters (for their range, not capacity) for the Battle of the Atlantic.

    ETA it would also have saved British lives. Directly, aircrew had a 50 per cent death rate per tour. Indirectly, bombing German arms factories rather than French farmers' fields would have starved Nazis of weapons to shoot back.
    I totally and utterly disagree. One of the reasons we were able to invade in 1944 was due to the efforts of bomber command. Yes they were shit to start with. But they got better with experience and innovation. Harris was resistant to switching to the transportation plan but when directly ordered he complied. As a result, with the 8th Air Force bombing by day and bomber command by night the Germans were massively impeded in what they could do. Look at how long it took Das Reich to reach the battle.

    Now you can argue about priorities, but actually to learn to bomb meant you had to bomb. And yes the casualties were horrific, but arguably those lost in the air were compensated by those saved on the ground.

    I think you will struggle to show how you shave a year off the war. When was your D-Day?
    Das Reich was slowed by the French Resistance, and was in the wrong place to start with thanks to Allied disinformation.

    D-day could probably have been a year earlier but that had more to do with Churchill's inability to read a map.

    You say bombing improved with innovation. That is my point too. Specifically onboard radar. Until then, Coastal Command could have made better use of the planes.
    But the innovation came from experience in the bombing raids. D-Day a year earlier was not really possible - the Americans hadn't built up enough, there weren't enough landing craft etc. Yes Das Reich was impeded by the resistance, but also anything moving in France was hit by the RAF/US 8th Air Force. And the ability to do that came with experience.
    Heavy bombers weren't so great at tactical stuff, though. Just ask General Lesley J. McNair.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    How do you feel about Comey, James and Bolton spuriously prosecuted on the instruction of Al Capone?
    James was elected in a platform of getting Trump, she’s at the FO stage of FAFO

    Boulton clearly has questions to answer, even the left w8ng US media says that.

    Comey, probably innocent.
    I suspect FA(WT)FO applies to all of them. Schiff next?

    In Bolton's defence 3 metric tonnes of classified secrets weren't found in his WC.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,665
    edited October 21
    Ratters said:

    Our latest Westminster voting intention (19-20 Oct) has the Greens on their highest figure ever recorded by YouGov

    Reform UK: 26% (-1 from 12-13 Oct)
    Labour: 20% (=)
    Conservatives: 17% (=)
    Lib Dems: 15% (-1)
    Greens: 15% (+2)
    SNP: 4% (+1)


    https://x.com/yougov/status/1980596985192427849?s=61&t=c6bcp0cjChLfQN5Tc8A_6g

    Green versus Reform as main two parties next election?

    I imagine there's still plenty of soft Labour support that would be willing to vote for a more ideological alternative.
    That has to be a serious worry at this point in the electoral cycle, and it’s not just a UK phenomenon.

    No-one is prepared to say how much fiscal rectitude is required, so it’s all culture war and trying to pin the blame on others, leading to ever more extreme politicians being taken seriously.

    But, fundamentally, If the fiscal rectitude doesn’t happen, the alternative is rectal fistitude, and the bond markets and IMF don’t like using lube.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,116
    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jenrick would "probably ban the burqa".

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1980584395397582922

    Jenrick and Lam so far today. Wonder who's next.

    Conservatives engaged in a game of Top Trumps: Racists Edition.
    Yes. It has no relevance to 95% of us, but is vice signalling to the moronic tendency. Few things could demonstrate that the Tories have learned nothing from their crushing a bare 15 months ago. They need to get onto economics quickly- the punters do not like this nasty party crap, but are prepared to give them a hearing on business and the economy- not the tax cutting agenda, but the "we are responsible" agenda. Trouble is that the number of MPs that could come up with something even worth discussing, never mind financially literate- Hunt, Mitchell- is less than the fingers on one hand.

    So more posturing bullshit on immigration, race and the US culture wars and the collapse continues.
    The inevitable pivot to new scapegoats after the failure of Brexit.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,001
    Oh dear ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2025/oct/21/horror-came-to-possess-modern-cinemas

    'Horror films continue to upset the establishment. “They have this strange ability to seem old fashioned and up to the minute, both at the same time,” Frayling says. Alongside the re-emergence of the mad scientist trope (two adaptations of Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein or The Modern Prometheus are imminent), he predicts we will see horror films in 2026 and 2027 reacting to our current anxieties: about AI’s dominance in the near future and “vampires living in the Trump tower”.

    Meanwhile, “Jesus horror” The Carpenter’s Son – which tells the story of Mary and Joseph’s struggles after Jesus’s birth, and stars Nicolas Cage and FKA twigs as the holy parents – is set for release later this year, and will certainly send a ripple through the Christian right in the US. Puckett is already hard at work on his next film. “It’s a short horror film based on the time a Reform MP came to our door and chatted to us,” he says. Its title? “It’s called Fuck Face.”'
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,529

    Afternoon all.

    Troubled times we're in, when the Tory Party is moving openly to embrace ultranationalist rhetoric.

    Does it matter, other than for those that are nostalgic for the Tory Party of old?

    The Tories are on track to be the fourth, maybe fifth (depending how the SNP does) largest party after the next election.

    If they continue down this route then they'll inevitably end up dissolving into insignificance / merging with Reform.

    For centrist Tories it's probably time to cut your losses and join the Lib Dems.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 62,051
    edited October 21
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    How do you feel about Comey, James and Bolton spuriously prosecuted on the instruction of Al Capone?
    James was elected in a platform of getting Trump, she’s at the FO stage of FAFO

    Boulton clearly has questions to answer, even the left w8ng US media says that.

    Comey, probably innocent.
    Comey is innocent of the specific charges leveled at him, and that is now clear as the indictments have been unsealed.

    He appeared before the Senate twice. In his first appearance, he was asked if he authorised or encouraged his Deputy Andrew McCabe to leak information. He denied it.

    In his second appearance, Ted Cruz asks if he authorized or encouraged anyone to release information.

    Comey says he stands by his earlier testimony.

    Cruz moves on.

    It now appears that Comey at least knew that his friend Andrew Richmond leaked information.

    The problem is that (a) Comey is being prosecuted for lying to Congress, and (b) that Ted Cruz is not a great interregator, and didn't realise that the question Comey answered is not the same one Cruz asked.

    What Comey said was misleading, but literally true. He was never asked about Andrew Richmond. He only ever denied regarding Andrew McCabe.

    US law is very clear; perjury is not just being misleading, it requires actual lying. We can now see why so many Prosecutors refused to bring the case against Comey.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 303
    Ratters said:

    Afternoon all.

    Troubled times we're in, when the Tory Party is moving openly to embrace ultranationalist rhetoric.

    Does it matter, other than for those that are nostalgic for the Tory Party of old?

    The Tories are on track to be the fourth, maybe fifth (depending how the SNP does) largest party after the next election.

    If they continue down this route then they'll inevitably end up dissolving into insignificance / merging with Reform.

    For centrist Tories it's probably time to cut your losses and join the Lib Dems.
    That's rubbish. The L D s are now well to the left of Labour. Most Conservatives like me would veer to Reform or even Labour.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,576
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    How do you feel about Comey, James and Bolton spuriously prosecuted on the instruction of Al Capone?
    James was elected in a platform of getting Trump, she’s at the FO stage of FAFO

    Boulton clearly has questions to answer, even the left w8ng US media says that.

    Comey, probably innocent.
    Comey is innocent of the specific charges leveled at him, and that is now clear as the indictments have been unsealed.

    He appeared before the Senate twice. In his first appearance, he was asked if he authorised or encouraged his Deputy Andrew McCabe to leak information. He denied it.

    In his second appearance, Ted Cruz asks if he authorized or encouraged anyone to release information.

    Comey says he stands by his earlier testimony.

    Cruz moves on.

    It now appears that Comey at least knew that his friend Andrew Richmond leaked information.

    The problem is that (a) Comey is being prosecuted for lying to Congress, and (b) that Ted Cruz is not a great interregator, and didn't realise that the question Comey answered is not the same one Cruz asked.

    What Comey said was misleading, but literally true. He was never asked about Andrew Richmond. He only ever denied regarding Andrew McCabe.

    US law is very clear; perjury is not just being misleading, it requires actual lying. We can now see why so many Prosecutors refused to bring the case against Comey.
    Did you see this?

    https://x.com/elizaorlins/status/1980512488493052184
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,714

    Sandpit said:

    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @yarotrof

    With Russia unwilling to drop its demands for a Ukrainian surrender of Donbas as a precondition to a ceasefire, it starts looking doubtful that the Budapest summit between Putin and Trump will happen anytime soon, if at all. The Lavrov-Rubio preparatory meeting, which Trump said was scheduled for this week, hasn’t been agreed to by Russia and, as per Lavrov deputy Ryabkov, “requires additional preparation.”

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1980529712137953587

    So Putin has managed to forestall the supply of Tomahawks by promising Trump a peace summit which now isn't going to happen?

    I can't decide between Trump being an idiot who is easily played by Putin, or actively malign who is cooperating with Putin to deflect pressure on him to act from the Republicans who would support Ukraine. Maybe it's a mix?

    If Europe as a whole gets its act together the war can be won. And that will be easier done now than when Le Pen is running France and Farage is running Britain. Get on with it.
    It doesn’t have to be big ticket items - I saw this cool thing in the Sun this morning which demonstrated that a bit of ingenuity can be as good as a lot of expensive kit, basically the British Space force engineers cobbled together launchers made up of chassis from APCs and missile rails from obsolete jets like the Jaguar and Tornado and have supplied the relevant missiles and created a successful mobile missile platform in a few months.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/37071931/british-missile-launchers-downing-russian-rockets-drones/
    There’s been lots of that going on. To the fury of big ticket contractors who see such expedients as stopping them getting proper programs at a proper price. Plus creating history that such things can be cheap.
    How would today’s contractors have coped in WWII?

    They still haven’t clicked that wartime procurement looks very different from peacetime procurement.

    When there’s peace, you maintain the industrial capability and push the future technology, but when there’s a war on you just want shedloads of last year’s weapons and want them yesterday.
    Air Marshall Harris suggested that he could take 12 months off the war, if he was allowed to shoot a few hundred civil servants and senior management in the aircraft industry.

    Highlights

    - Harris personally authorised, against the wish of officials, an improved gun mounting for the Hampden. Told the manufacturers of the mountings he would be personally be liable, financially.
    - The System telling him that increasing the size of the Lancaster escape hatch was impossible. Even for next years production.
    - The continued production of the Stirling
    - the Rose turret saga
    - Etc
    We could probably have knocked a year off the war by sacking Harris. The area bombing campaign, whatever you think of its morality, was ludicrously ineffective until better navigation, first by onboard radar and then by properly using onboard radar, meant bombs could be dropped within 50 yards of the target rather than within five miles.

    It might also have freed Lancasters (for their range, not capacity) for the Battle of the Atlantic.

    ETA it would also have saved British lives. Directly, aircrew had a 50 per cent death rate per tour. Indirectly, bombing German arms factories rather than French farmers' fields would have starved Nazis of weapons to shoot back.
    I totally and utterly disagree. One of the reasons we were able to invade in 1944 was due to the efforts of bomber command. Yes they were shit to start with. But they got better with experience and innovation. Harris was resistant to switching to the transportation plan but when directly ordered he complied. As a result, with the 8th Air Force bombing by day and bomber command by night the Germans were massively impeded in what they could do. Look at how long it took Das Reich to reach the battle.

    Now you can argue about priorities, but actually to learn to bomb meant you had to bomb. And yes the casualties were horrific, but arguably those lost in the air were compensated by those saved on the ground.

    I think you will struggle to show how you shave a year off the war. When was your D-Day?
    Das Reich was slowed by the French Resistance, and was in the wrong place to start with thanks to Allied disinformation.

    D-day could probably have been a year earlier but that had more to do with Churchill's inability to read a map.

    You say bombing improved with innovation. That is my point too. Specifically onboard radar. Until then, Coastal Command could have made better use of the planes.
    D-Day couldn’t have been a year earlier. The landing craft and associated specialist vessels were emitter being built or designed.

    Let alone the specialist vehicles (Hobart’s Funnies)

    As it was there was barely enough.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,267
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    How do you feel about Comey, James and Bolton spuriously prosecuted on the instruction of Al Capone?
    James was elected in a platform of getting Trump, she’s at the FO stage of FAFO

    Boulton clearly has questions to answer, even the left w8ng US media says that.

    Comey, probably innocent.
    Comey is innocent of the specific charges leveled at him, and that is now clear as the indictments have been unsealed.

    He appeared before the Senate twice. In his first appearance, he was asked if he authorised or encouraged his Deputy Andrew McCabe to leak information. He denied it.

    In his second appearance, Ted Cruz asks if he authorized or encouraged anyone to release information.

    Comey says he stands by his earlier testimony.

    Cruz moves on.

    It now appears that Comey at least knew that his friend Andrew Richmond leaked information.

    The problem is that (a) Comey is being prosecuted for lying to Congress, and (b) that Ted Cruz is not a great interregator, and didn't realise that the question Comey answered is not the same one Cruz asked.

    What Comey said was misleading, but literally true. He was never asked about Andrew Richmond. He only ever denied regarding Andrew McCabe.

    US law is very clear; perjury is not just being misleading, it requires actual lying. We can now see why so many Prosecutors refused to bring the case against Comey.
    The second testimony is a very savvy Lawyer's answer.

    Disingenuous? Absolutely, but no lie.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,810
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @yarotrof

    With Russia unwilling to drop its demands for a Ukrainian surrender of Donbas as a precondition to a ceasefire, it starts looking doubtful that the Budapest summit between Putin and Trump will happen anytime soon, if at all. The Lavrov-Rubio preparatory meeting, which Trump said was scheduled for this week, hasn’t been agreed to by Russia and, as per Lavrov deputy Ryabkov, “requires additional preparation.”

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1980529712137953587

    So Putin has managed to forestall the supply of Tomahawks by promising Trump a peace summit which now isn't going to happen?

    I can't decide between Trump being an idiot who is easily played by Putin, or actively malign who is cooperating with Putin to deflect pressure on him to act from the Republicans who would support Ukraine. Maybe it's a mix?

    If Europe as a whole gets its act together the war can be won. And that will be easier done now than when Le Pen is running France and Farage is running Britain. Get on with it.
    It doesn’t have to be big ticket items - I saw this cool thing in the Sun this morning which demonstrated that a bit of ingenuity can be as good as a lot of expensive kit, basically the British Space force engineers cobbled together launchers made up of chassis from APCs and missile rails from obsolete jets like the Jaguar and Tornado and have supplied the relevant missiles and created a successful mobile missile platform in a few months.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/37071931/british-missile-launchers-downing-russian-rockets-drones/
    There’s been lots of that going on. To the fury of big ticket contractors who see such expedients as stopping them getting proper programs at a proper price. Plus creating history that such things can be cheap.
    How would today’s contractors have coped in WWII?

    They still haven’t clicked that wartime procurement looks very different from peacetime procurement.

    When there’s peace, you maintain the industrial capability and push the future technology, but when there’s a war on you just want shedloads of last year’s weapons and want them yesterday.
    Air Marshall Harris suggested that he could take 12 months off the war, if he was allowed to shoot a few hundred civil servants and senior management in the aircraft industry.

    Highlights

    - Harris personally authorised, against the wish of officials, an improved gun mounting for the Hampden. Told the manufacturers of the mountings he would be personally be liable, financially.
    - The System telling him that increasing the size of the Lancaster escape hatch was impossible. Even for next years production.
    - The continued production of the Stirling
    - the Rose turret saga
    - Etc
    We could probably have knocked a year off the war by sacking Harris. The area bombing campaign, whatever you think of its morality, was ludicrously ineffective until better navigation, first by onboard radar and then by properly using onboard radar, meant bombs could be dropped within 50 yards of the target rather than within five miles.

    It might also have freed Lancasters (for their range, not capacity) for the Battle of the Atlantic.

    ETA it would also have saved British lives. Directly, aircrew had a 50 per cent death rate per tour. Indirectly, bombing German arms factories rather than French farmers' fields would have starved Nazis of weapons to shoot back.
    I totally and utterly disagree. One of the reasons we were able to invade in 1944 was due to the efforts of bomber command. Yes they were shit to start with. But they got better with experience and innovation. Harris was resistant to switching to the transportation plan but when directly ordered he complied. As a result, with the 8th Air Force bombing by day and bomber command by night the Germans were massively impeded in what they could do. Look at how long it took Das Reich to reach the battle.

    Now you can argue about priorities, but actually to learn to bomb meant you had to bomb. And yes the casualties were horrific, but arguably those lost in the air were compensated by those saved on the ground.

    I think you will struggle to show how you shave a year off the war. When was your D-Day?
    Das Reich was slowed by the French Resistance, and was in the wrong place to start with thanks to Allied disinformation.

    D-day could probably have been a year earlier but that had more to do with Churchill's inability to read a map.

    You say bombing improved with innovation. That is my point too. Specifically onboard radar. Until then, Coastal Command could have made better use of the planes.
    But the innovation came from experience in the bombing raids. D-Day a year earlier was not really possible - the Americans hadn't built up enough, there weren't enough landing craft etc. Yes Das Reich was impeded by the resistance, but also anything moving in France was hit by the RAF/US 8th Air Force. And the ability to do that came with experience.
    Heavy bombers weren't so great at tactical stuff, though. Just ask General Lesley J. McNair.
    That's true. I am not a fan of revisionism in how we should have fought the war. Harris had a vision of defeating Germany without the need to land a single soldier on German soil. Arguably against a 'normal' opponent that would have worked. The destruction of Germanies cities by late '44 was incredible.

    What would have been achieved by not bombing Germany? Less pressure on the Reich so freeing up weapons for elsewhere? Less effort on the Luftwaffe combating bombing raids? More production of war material in Germany? I don't really understand why people think Harris and Spaatz were so wrong in what they did.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,665
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Biff Tannen is smashing down the East Wing of the Trump House to build his ballroom without planning consent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/demolition-work-begins-on-white-house-east-wing-for-trumps-186m-ballroom-13454284

    The US electorate should really have told Trump to foxtrot oscar this time last year.
    The politicians should have spent 2021-3 making sure Trump couldn’t be a candidate in 2024.

    Once they failed to do that result was inevitable
    On the contrary, they should have all ignored him completely.

    Trying to smother him with lawfare was never going to succeed and made him into a martyr.
    What you're saying is that everyone except those responsible for putting Trump in office, are responsible for putting Trump in office.
    No, I’m saying that trying to put him in prison for the most spurious of reasons made him more popular.
    How do you feel about Comey, James and Bolton spuriously prosecuted on the instruction of Al Capone?
    James was elected in a platform of getting Trump, she’s at the FO stage of FAFO

    Boulton clearly has questions to answer, even the left w8ng US media says that.

    Comey, probably innocent.
    Yeah that’s about right.

    Tish James is in big trouble, Bolton may or may not be in trouble, Comey is diffficult to pin down and probably walks.
Sign In or Register to comment.