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The Rachel Reeves effect – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,738
edited October 17 in General
The Rachel Reeves effect – politicalbetting.com

Although the IMF has predicted that the UK will be the second-fastest growing G7 economy this year, most Britons feel the UK economy is doing worse than those of other major western countriesWorse: 56%About the same: 23%Better: 10%yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210
    Morning
  • eekeek Posts: 31,527
    edited October 17
    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,129
    Growth maybe - but the benefit destroyed by higher inflation than the other G7 countries.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067
    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...


    Congratulations on posting the smallest most indecipherable image in the history of PB
  • eekeek Posts: 31,527
    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...


    Congratulations on posting the smallest most indecipherable image in the history of PB
    It shouldn't be the original photo was 800 pixels wide...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,320
    I’m gutted the new thread curse has denied you all my semi-topical Gene Simmons anecdote.
  • eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    Its all been worthwhile. Doing this allowed the Tories to offload the cost off the Treasury and thus cut taxes for all!!!

    No, wait
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,238
    That YouGov poll is a bit silly not including the other side of the ledger.

    I'd be interested in a spending v taxes breakdown by party, particularly on the NHS.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,948
    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...


    Congratulations on posting the smallest most indecipherable image in the history of PB
    I thought that social care had ballooned, but it seems I was wrong.
  • eek said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...


    Congratulations on posting the smallest most indecipherable image in the history of PB
    It shouldn't be the original photo was 800 pixels wide...
    Yeah, people have been ignoring the one image a day limit and Vanilla has reset the limits.

    I'll fix it now.

    But for the final time to all PBers, you are limited to one picture per day, the allowance starts at 00.00 UK time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067
    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,567
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...


    Congratulations on posting the smallest most indecipherable image in the history of PB
    It shouldn't be the original photo was 800 pixels wide...
    It’s a vanilla thing. Happened to me yesterday too
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,639
    Tax rises impact "me" directly. Government borrowing doesn't. Hence the polling.
  • Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,567

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Lots of cash on the sidelines though it’s just not evenly distributed. People reluctant to spend.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,129
    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...


    Congratulations on posting the smallest most indecipherable image in the history of PB
    Use your imagination man!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067
    I’m starting a posse

    Who’s with me?
  • Leon said:

    I’m starting a posse

    Who’s with me?

    What's your manifesto?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,082
    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    What even is “social care”? Is this all paying for people to stay in old people’s homes or does it include things like taxis for kids to get to school?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067

    Leon said:

    I’m starting a posse

    Who’s with me?

    What's your manifesto?
    Haven’t got one yet. Just think it would be cool

    THE PB POSSE

    We can ride electro Vespas in Savile row blazers. @Sean_F is the doctor who was a vet. @Nigelb is the one with doubts about the whole enterprise

    But we ride on, nonetheless
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,567
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m starting a posse

    Who’s with me?

    What's your manifesto?
    Haven’t got one yet. Just think it would be cool

    THE PB POSSE

    We can ride electro Vespas in Savile row blazers. @Sean_F is the doctor who was a vet. @Nigelb is the one with doubts about the whole enterprise

    But we ride on, nonetheless
    Is this like the A Team ? You going to convert a shed and a tranny van into an armoured vehicle
  • eekeek Posts: 31,527
    edited October 17

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    What even is “social care”? Is this all paying for people to stay in old people’s homes or does it include things like taxis for kids to get to school?
    It's both - the chart came from https://x.com/AaronBastani/status/1978854635403182300/photo/1

    And child services has gone up a lot, although some of that would have been hidden in school budgets back in 2011/12 as they were locally still local authority managed at the time.

    Edit to add - I didn't think child social care had gone up that much, but not surprising when you don't fix problems early on via surestart.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,129
    Leon said:

    I’m starting a posse

    Who’s with me?

    Who are we chasing? And what's the reward on them?

    (BTW, when in Riyadh, check out the national museum. They have exquisite items recovered from ancient cities in the desert. Only a tiny amount has been unearthed - the sand still covers untold wonders.)
  • eekeek Posts: 31,527

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...


    Congratulations on posting the smallest most indecipherable image in the history of PB
    It shouldn't be the original photo was 800 pixels wide...
    Yeah, people have been ignoring the one image a day limit and Vanilla has reset the limits.

    I'll fix it now.

    But for the final time to all PBers, you are limited to one picture per day, the allowance starts at 00.00 UK time.
    Don't worry I post about 1 picture a year - it's easier to just link....
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,639
    The Israeli gov should get the CEO of Maccabi Tel Aviv to do their interviews from now on. Very sensible and intelligent interview just now.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,567
    AnneJGP said:

    I don't like borrowing money, it makes my teeth itch. Digging yourself into a hole. I have the utmost compassion for individuals who've seen no way forward but to borrow to meet their needs.

    We're in a massive hole as a country and I'd like to see a plan for getting out of it. We present as a wealthy country and we're not.

    Good morning, everybody.

    Good Morning

    You’re right. But until we have politicians prepared to accept the problem and take action we will just drift along until something has to be done.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,639
    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    I only realised this morning that our health budget scaled up to the UK population would be £250b per year and the health minister is saying that it’s the bare minimum required. Considering we pay for doctors appointments so half the cost of GPs is met and you pay for scans and other services.

    Health and Social care is something with an endless appetite and it’s only going to keep growing without a massive shift in politics where people are told that it’s over, people need to take more responsibility for their health and long term care provision. It would be good if Kemi could start saying this now as, whilst it would make the Tories unpopular for a while there is time to hope the reality seeps through and voters eventually accept a sensible approach to money rather than endless spending.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,567

    True story I am sure.


    That reminds me of the time I was being inducted into the silly buggers society at uni. I misheard the instructions and was supposed to shove a whole aubergine in my earhole
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,238
    edited October 17

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    What even is “social care”? Is this all paying for people to stay in old people’s homes or does it include things like taxis for kids to get to school?
    Always surprising how much we spend on adult social care (rather than old-age). In Scotland care for children comes under the social work budgets typically.

    Basically, a severely disabled person in their 30s, particularly with learning disabilities, costs a fortune to look after. Significantly more than an 80-year old, particularly as older people will be self-funding at least some of their care.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,232

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m starting a posse

    Who’s with me?

    What's your manifesto?
    Haven’t got one yet. Just think it would be cool

    THE PB POSSE

    We can ride electro Vespas in Savile row blazers. @Sean_F is the doctor who was a vet. @Nigelb is the one with doubts about the whole enterprise

    But we ride on, nonetheless
    Is this like the A Team ? You going to convert a shed and a tranny van into an armoured vehicle
    Excellent idea. The PB A Team

    We could do a raid on Conservative home

    Just ride in and whoop it up. Shooting off random mad remarks. Make the Tory ladies hide behind their curtains. Get @Sunil_Prasannan to tell them about trains in argyle

    Then leave without explanation
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,558
    edited October 17
    boulay said:

    The Israeli gov should get the CEO of Maccabi Tel Aviv to do their interviews from now on. Very sensible and intelligent interview just now.

    Yes, I thought something similar.
    I fear sensible and intelligent may be disqualifications for the role as far as Bibi and the lads are concerned though.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,666
    Have we noted this interesting and intelligent judgment, one for freedom lovers to cut out and keep, about the criminality or otherwise of Koran burning.

    Legally it is of limited authority, being a Crown Court appeal from the magistrates, but the presiding judge is a very very experienced high court judge. He gets it spot on.


    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/Rex-v-Hamit-Coskun.pdf?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,372

    boulay said:

    The Israeli gov should get the CEO of Maccabi Tel Aviv to do their interviews from now on. Very sensible and intelligent interview just now.

    Yes, I thought something similar.
    I fear sensible and intelligent may be disqualifications for the role as far as Bibi and the lads are concerned though.
    What you need to remember is Bibi is the moderate one. Nick Clegg never mentioned this while campaigning for PR.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,144
    boulay said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    I only realised this morning that our health budget scaled up to the UK population would be £250b per year and the health minister is saying that it’s the bare minimum required. Considering we pay for doctors appointments so half the cost of GPs is met and you pay for scans and other services.

    Health and Social care is something with an endless appetite and it’s only going to keep growing without a massive shift in politics where people are told that it’s over, people need to take more responsibility for their health and long term care provision. It would be good if Kemi could start saying this now as, whilst it would make the Tories unpopular for a while there is time to hope the reality seeps through and voters eventually accept a sensible approach to money rather than endless spending.
    I acknowledge my ignorance on the issue, nevertheless I have the impression that the NHS offers too wide a menu of 'free treatment'. Perhaps if we started looking at slimming that down it would open the door to conversations about where does the funding come from.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,314
    edited October 17

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,372
    Taz said:

    True story I am sure.


    That reminds me of the time I was being inducted into the silly buggers society at uni. I misheard the instructions and was supposed to shove a whole aubergine in my earhole
    David Cameron had a similar misunderstanding at an Oxford initiation. Something about pigs and pork swords.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210
    On topic, there's a fair amount of truth in this.

    https://x.com/peterrhague/status/1978895512276214053
    One notable thing about living in the UK is how prices increasingly don’t have much relation to reality.

    * mortgages and rents are dictated by huge government manipulation of both supply and demand
    * consumer prices are driven by a high and not universally applied VAT, with Byzantine rules for exemptions
    * energy prices are basically made up for political reasons
    * the NHS prices are completely hidden in the tax system
    * new car prices are driven by demand from the absurd Motability scheme, and by punitive import tariffs
    * increasingly flat wages converge towards a legal minimum, and employment costs are significantly higher than wages due to the way NI works.

    This heavily manipulated market is not working, and the government responds typically by further market manipulation (eg introducing universal rent controls) in an effort to make unhappy voting blocs wealthier by diktat.


    On the highlighted point, the number of those on very low pay (hourly earnings below two-thirds of the median hourly wage) has dropped like a stone, since the minimum wage now exceeds this number.

    But this also means there's a very large number in employment with a very small wage differential between those at the bottom and those higher up.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,372
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    What even is “social care”? Is this all paying for people to stay in old people’s homes or does it include things like taxis for kids to get to school?
    It's both - the chart came from https://x.com/AaronBastani/status/1978854635403182300/photo/1

    And child services has gone up a lot, although some of that would have been hidden in school budgets back in 2011/12 as they were locally still local authority managed at the time.

    Edit to add - I didn't think child social care had gone up that much, but not surprising when you don't fix problems early on via surestart.
    From the chart, it looks like adult spending doubled but child services went up five times. This is worse than the triple lock if we extrapolate to infinity. King Herod was right.
  • MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,631
    boulay said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    I only realised this morning that our health budget scaled up to the UK population would be £250b per year and the health minister is saying that it’s the bare minimum required. Considering we pay for doctors appointments so half the cost of GPs is met and you pay for scans and other services.

    Health and Social care is something with an endless appetite and it’s only going to keep growing without a massive shift in politics where people are told that it’s over, people need to take more responsibility for their health and long term care provision. It would be good if Kemi could start saying this now as, whilst it would make the Tories unpopular for a while there is time to hope the reality seeps through and voters eventually accept a sensible approach to money rather than endless spending.
    Yet there are calls to tax pensions and other savings more heavily etc.

    People should be encouraged to save for their own retirement, not penalised for it. The regime needs to be stable enough for people to have confidence that the rules will not change to their disadvantage.

    It is a toxic subject though. In 2017 it was part of Mays fiasco election, but actually a good policy. No one will touch it again.

  • MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
    Don't the news organisations get to choose whether sites like archive.is are able to scrape their content or not? I believe some don't allow it.

    If they choose to allow it, then they can hardly complain that it happens.
  • MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
    Don't the news organisations get to choose whether sites like archive.is are able to scrape their content or not? I believe some don't allow it.

    If they choose to allow it, then they can hardly complain that it happens.
    They send cease and desist letters which get ignored.

    Most serious legal letter OGH ever received was from The Times when Plato was copying and pasting dozens of entire articles from behind the paywall
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,372
    Nigelb said:

    On topic, there's a fair amount of truth in this.

    https://x.com/peterrhague/status/1978895512276214053
    One notable thing about living in the UK is how prices increasingly don’t have much relation to reality.

    * mortgages and rents are dictated by huge government manipulation of both supply and demand
    * consumer prices are driven by a high and not universally applied VAT, with Byzantine rules for exemptions
    * energy prices are basically made up for political reasons
    * the NHS prices are completely hidden in the tax system
    * new car prices are driven by demand from the absurd Motability scheme, and by punitive import tariffs
    * increasingly flat wages converge towards a legal minimum, and employment costs are significantly higher than wages due to the way NI works.

    This heavily manipulated market is not working, and the government responds typically by further market manipulation (eg introducing universal rent controls) in an effort to make unhappy voting blocs wealthier by diktat.


    On the highlighted point, the number of those on very low pay (hourly earnings below two-thirds of the median hourly wage) has dropped like a stone, since the minimum wage now exceeds this number.

    But this also means there's a very large number in employment with a very small wage differential between those at the bottom and those higher up.

    There is a tweak for housing costs which are inflated because people see it as an investment and therefore, unlike when buying almost anything else, pay the maximum amount they can borrow. Dual-income households priced single people out of the market, and because the well-paid tend to marry the well-paid, this multiplies their advantage over those on average wages.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,082
    algarkirk said:

    Have we noted this interesting and intelligent judgment, one for freedom lovers to cut out and keep, about the criminality or otherwise of Koran burning.

    Legally it is of limited authority, being a Crown Court appeal from the magistrates, but the presiding judge is a very very experienced high court judge. He gets it spot on.


    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/Rex-v-Hamit-Coskun.pdf?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

    The first few paragraphs are excellent. Very powerful stuff.
  • Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    I only realised this morning that our health budget scaled up to the UK population would be £250b per year and the health minister is saying that it’s the bare minimum required. Considering we pay for doctors appointments so half the cost of GPs is met and you pay for scans and other services.

    Health and Social care is something with an endless appetite and it’s only going to keep growing without a massive shift in politics where people are told that it’s over, people need to take more responsibility for their health and long term care provision. It would be good if Kemi could start saying this now as, whilst it would make the Tories unpopular for a while there is time to hope the reality seeps through and voters eventually accept a sensible approach to money rather than endless spending.
    Yet there are calls to tax pensions and other savings more heavily etc.

    People should be encouraged to save for their own retirement, not penalised for it. The regime needs to be stable enough for people to have confidence that the rules will not change to their disadvantage.

    It is a toxic subject though. In 2017 it was part of Mays fiasco election, but actually a good policy. No one will touch it again.

    Absolutely we should encourage people to save for their own retirement and not penalise it, we should also encourage people to work and not penalise them for it.

    We should tax pensions at the same rate as we tax wages, not penalise either. Currently we don't.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,892
    The premise of the first opinion poll question is a bit silly - opinion polls work best when they ask people about something they have a clue about and, despite the millions spent on economic education, few enough (certainly not 89%) know what GDP is or have no idea about the economic situation in Canada or Japan. Also anybody who follows these matters knows that the IMF's projections (or any others for that matter) have pretty dismal records,

    So I'm surprised at a reputable pollster formulating it in this rather leading way and not really sure what they were trying to achieve.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,747
    edited October 17
    Morning all
    Interesting set of local elections this week (3 results to come today still)
    The Surrey, Spelthorne etc wards went very much in line with recent trends and polling - LDs in command, Reform fighting Tories for second. Guildford and Surrey Heath look fairly solid for Lib Dem defence next time as we stand and Spelthorne looks vulnerable to a Tory loss to LD perhaps - Green collapse was a bit eye watering in Staines given their recent surge
    Preston a very impressive LD gain ad Labour in real trouble everywhere.
    Copdock a Ref gain from LD for the first time and South Suffolk looks like a very gainable Reform target
    Ayr won by an independent local business owner, tory vote collapsed. Reform not looking like major challengers. Ayr SNP hold at Holyrood I'd suggest.
    Impressive Tory gain in Trafford with vote holding up as Lab collapsed. Probably assisted by a relatively large Hindu population which is a strong demographic for them right now, Reform fourth so Old Lady Brady's Altrincham looks a good bet for a Tory regain from Labour as we stand (the little blue group of Chester and Eddisbury, Tatton, Altrincham might well be the sole blue island in the NW if Fylde drops)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,631
    algarkirk said:

    Have we noted this interesting and intelligent judgment, one for freedom lovers to cut out and keep, about the criminality or otherwise of Koran burning.

    Legally it is of limited authority, being a Crown Court appeal from the magistrates, but the presiding judge is a very very experienced high court judge. He gets it spot on.


    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/Rex-v-Hamit-Coskun.pdf?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

    Yes, that is a sensible ruling and one that Interstingly cites precedence going back to the Corn Laws on free speech.

    Context is everything. Burning a Koran or a flag or ring of Poppies etc is not in itself a crime unless it is done with a liklihood of causing alarm or distress. So a bonfire in my own garden is fine, doing it in front of a Mosque while part of a mob is not. A key issue is Social Media, does this count as a public place, and what is the intent?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,448
    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    First, it only consumes the budget of every Unitary and County Council - Districts and Boroughs don't get involved in the existing two-tier system - I'm just wondering if the whole LGR programme might be quietly abandoned next month?

    Second, yes, the growth in the costs of all aspects of social care has been considerable and don't forget it's about BOTH adult AND child social care. It's not just down to there being more elderly people in receipt of publicly-funded care, we also have vulnerable children with conditions which, frankly, would have been terminal not too long ago but who can now, with adequate care provision, be kept alive (the question of the quality of that life is a different one).

    Whether it's domiciliary care provision or full care in a private dementia care facility funded by the council makes little odds in terms of the provision and with families getting increasingly savvy about how to avoid care costs (putting properties in trusts for example), the burden falls on the council.

    The other big area of increased expenditure is of course SEN provision which starts with qualified SEN teachers through specialist accommodation in schools to transport.

    In Newham, it's 43% of the budget with another 20% on housing services - an area we don't talk about much but another source of funding pressure in many councils.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
    Don't the news organisations get to choose whether sites like archive.is are able to scrape their content or not? I believe some don't allow it.

    If they choose to allow it, then they can hardly complain that it happens.
    No. The newspapers loathe these sites and are going to ever greater lengths to get them shut down

    @TSE is quite correct on this

    And of course the papers are right. These sites are simply stealing. And this is at a crucial time when “the papers” have finally worked out a way to make a profit from/despite the internet

    Surely all PBers want a healthy media ecosystem. It s a vital part of democracy. If we do want this, we have to pay for it, not steal
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,372

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
    Don't the news organisations get to choose whether sites like archive.is are able to scrape their content or not? I believe some don't allow it.

    If they choose to allow it, then they can hardly complain that it happens.
    They send cease and desist letters which get ignored.

    Most serious legal letter OGH ever received was from The Times when Plato was copying and pasting dozens of entire articles from behind the paywall
    Fun fact, Plato turned to posting hundreds of links which is why I subscribed to the Telegraph in order follow them, which costs more than £1 a day. It went up a lot this year.

    Other fun fact, I used to waste hours following Plato's links to American stories which invariably turned out not to be what she claimed. I do not think she read them or watched the videos herself but was simply pasting whatever links showed up in her alt-right feeds.

    But I've largely given up now, which is why I have no informed opinion on whether Portland is home to the drug-crazed, crime-ridden, zombie apocalypse some posters warned us about, or not.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,219
    edited October 17

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
    Don't the news organisations get to choose whether sites like archive.is are able to scrape their content or not? I believe some don't allow it.

    If they choose to allow it, then they can hardly complain that it happens.
    They send cease and desist letters which get ignored.

    Most serious legal letter OGH ever received was from The Times when Plato was copying and pasting dozens of entire articles from behind the paywall
    AFAIK that's completely different.

    If you have access behind the paywall and manually copy and paste then that's different to automated scraping which can't happen if the paywall is in place.

    The FT chooses to allow search engines like Google access to their articles, which is how you can get access to its articles without paying. That's their choice. That's AFAIK how sites like archive.is work, they automate scraping via the permissions that sites like the FT gives.

    The Times AFAIK does not give those permissions out.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,314
    A news story which is not breaking through in the UK, and I can't judge yet.

    GAFCON, which is an "alternative Anglican Communion" lead by Nigerian and other Bishops, has put out a declaration about walking away from Canterbury, and breaking the Anglican Communion. They are making it mainly around gay relationships, and possibly a female Archbishop who is willing to accept them. It is framed around "we are the Anglican Communion now".

    There are some strange things about it, such as it having been announced now, when the new ABC is not due to be enthroned until 2026, and it coming from an Archbishop in Nigeria. The reaction is due to a position that does not exist yet.

    There are clearly lots of power politics happening. I'm seeing "Great Schism" type reports from non-denominational sources in places like the USA and Sydney, and not a lot from elsewhere.

    A brief report: https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/sarah-mullally-s-election-to-archbishop-of-canterbury-described-as-devastating
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,314

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
    Don't the news organisations get to choose whether sites like archive.is are able to scrape their content or not? I believe some don't allow it.

    If they choose to allow it, then they can hardly complain that it happens.
    They send cease and desist letters which get ignored.

    Most serious legal letter OGH ever received was from The Times when Plato was copying and pasting dozens of entire articles from behind the paywall
    AFAIK that's completely different.

    If you have access behind the paywall and manually copy and paste then that's different to automated scraping which can't happen if the paywall is in place.

    The FT chooses to allow search engines like Google access to their articles, which is how you can get access to its articles without paying. That's their choice. That's AFAIK not how sites like archive.is work, they automate scraping via the permissions that sites like the FT gives.

    The Times AFAIK does not give those permissions out.
    Thanks @TSE, that's why I asked the question - and is clear and noted.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,372
    edited October 17
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
    Don't the news organisations get to choose whether sites like archive.is are able to scrape their content or not? I believe some don't allow it.

    If they choose to allow it, then they can hardly complain that it happens.
    No. The newspapers loathe these sites and are going to ever greater lengths to get them shut down

    @TSE is quite correct on this

    And of course the papers are right. These sites are simply stealing. And this is at a crucial time when “the papers” have finally worked out a way to make a profit from/despite the internet

    Surely all PBers want a healthy media ecosystem. It s a vital part of democracy. If we do want this, we have to pay for it, not steal
    Up to a point. At some level they were welcomed as it allowed social media discussion of press stories which might, it was hoped, lead to sales and subscriptions.

    The new concern is of search engines (Google and Bing) providing AI summaries of search results, so end-users are not clicking through to the sites thrown up by their searches but instead just read the summary. Result, lost page views which means at best less advertising revenue and worse, no conversion to sales.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067
    edited October 17

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
    Don't the news organisations get to choose whether sites like archive.is are able to scrape their content or not? I believe some don't allow it.

    If they choose to allow it, then they can hardly complain that it happens.
    They send cease and desist letters which get ignored.

    Most serious legal letter OGH ever received was from The Times when Plato was copying and pasting dozens of entire articles from behind the paywall
    Fun fact, Plato turned to posting hundreds of links which is why I subscribed to the Telegraph in order follow them, which costs more than £1 a day. It went up a lot this year.

    Other fun fact, I used to waste hours following Plato's links to American stories which invariably turned out not to be what she claimed. I do not think she read them or watched the videos herself but was simply pasting whatever links showed up in her alt-right feeds.

    But I've largely given up now, which is why I have no informed opinion on whether Portland is home to the drug-crazed, crime-ridden, zombie apocalypse some posters warned us about, or not.
    It’s not

    It is quite edgy and sad downtown, with a fair number of druggies all over the place, but it’s not Armageddon

    If I lived in Portland I’d really not like it. But I wouldn’t be frightened for my life and they don’t need the army. They just need a tough new mayor like the one in San Francisco
  • Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
    Don't the news organisations get to choose whether sites like archive.is are able to scrape their content or not? I believe some don't allow it.

    If they choose to allow it, then they can hardly complain that it happens.
    No. The newspapers loathe these sites and are going to ever greater lengths to get them shut down

    @TSE is quite correct on this

    And of course the papers are right. These sites are simply stealing. And this is at a crucial time when “the papers” have finally worked out a way to make a profit from/despite the internet

    Surely all PBers want a healthy media ecosystem. It s a vital part of democracy. If we do want this, we have to pay for it, not steal
    Up to a point. At some level they were welcomed as it allowed social media discussion of press stories which might, it was hoped, lead to sales and subscriptions.

    The new concern is of search engines (Google and Bing) providing AI summaries of search results, so end-users are not clicking through to the sites thrown up by their searches but instead just read the summary. Result, lost page views which means at best less advertising revenue and worse, no conversion to sales.
    Indeed, which again can happen because sites like the FT are choosing to allow Google et al access to their articles.

    They could choose not to allow it, but then they wouldn't appear in searches.

    Swings and roundabouts.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,448

    Morning all
    Interesting set of local elections this week (3 results to come today still)
    The Surrey, Spelthorne etc wards went very much in line with recent trends and polling - LDs in command, Reform fighting Tories for second. Guildford and Surrey Heath look fairly solid for Lib Dem defence next time as we stand and Spelthorne looks vulnerable to a Tory loss to LD perhaps - Green collapse was a bit eye watering in Staines given their recent surge
    Preston a very impressive LD gain ad Labour in real trouble everywhere.
    Copdock a Ref gain from LD for the first time and South Suffolk looks like a very gainable Reform target
    Ayr won by an independent local business owner, tory vote collapsed. Reform not looking like major challengers. Ayr SNP hold at Holyrood I'd suggest.
    Impressive Tory gain in Trafford with vote holding up as Lab collapsed. Probably assisted by a relatively large Hindu population which is a strong demographic for them right now, Reform fourth so Old Lady Brady's Altrincham looks a good bet for a Tory regain from Labour as we stand (the little blue group of Chester and Eddisbury, Tatton, Altrincham might well be the sole blue island in the NW if Fylde drops)

    Yes, we still have the Surrey county seat in Caterham Valley and the district seats in Tandridge and Reigate & Banstead which are counting this morning.

    The intriguing part about the Trafford result was the turnout - close to 50% - which is very good for a local council by-election - and by all accounts the Conservatives, Labour, LDs AND Reform all worked the seat.

    I believe there is some some evidence Reform are not so effective in higher turnout contests but I've not looked into that in as much detail and it may be where they face significant local competition it's much harder for them - no surprise.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,639

    The reason people think the UK is doing worse than comparable countries is that they do not know how badly the comparable countries are also doing.

    We go to comparable countries on holiday and sip coffee in the sunshine. Then assume that life there is a bed of roses.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,371

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    The main determinant of financial well being pretty much always come back to housing status.

    If you own your own home with mortgage paid of you should be on financial easy street.

    If you rent then you're likely to be struggling.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,371
    Re the second question - there isn't an option about the government keeping its spending promises.

    Is it assumed that government spending can only ever increase ?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,694
    So "I'm alright Jack" Conservative and Reform supporters don't care about the public finances then so long as their taxes don't go up. What a shower.
  • Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    The main determinant of financial well being pretty much always come back to housing status.

    If you own your own home with mortgage paid of you should be on financial easy street.

    If you rent then you're likely to be struggling.
    One nation Conservatives used to understand this, understand that we need everyone to own their own property.

    I am much nearer to creating one nation than Labour will ever be. Socialism is two nations. The privileged rulers, and everyone else. And it always gets to that. What I am desperately trying to do is create one nation with everyone being a man of property, or having the opportunity to be a man of property.

    Then for some reason the term got hijacked by people who like other concepts and believe that letting out properties is the future instead of ensuring that everyone can own their own.

    We need a return to one nation, but no party offers that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m starting a posse

    Who’s with me?

    What's your manifesto?
    Haven’t got one yet. Just think it would be cool

    THE PB POSSE

    We can ride electro Vespas in Savile row blazers. @Sean_F is the doctor who was a vet. @Nigelb is the one with doubts about the whole enterprise

    But we ride on, nonetheless
    Is this like the A Team ? You going to convert a shed and a tranny van into an armoured vehicle
    Excellent idea. The PB A Team

    We could do a raid on Conservative home

    Just ride in and whoop it up. Shooting off random mad remarks. Make the Tory ladies hide behind their curtains. Get @Sunil_Prasannan to tell them about trains in argyle

    Then leave without explanation
    Which PBer are you nominating as most likely to have to be broken out of their institutional care, for this expedition?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,927
    Inflation.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,738
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    What even is “social care”? Is this all paying for people to stay in old people’s homes or does it include things like taxis for kids to get to school?
    It's both - the chart came from https://x.com/AaronBastani/status/1978854635403182300/photo/1

    And child services has gone up a lot, although some of that would have been hidden in school budgets back in 2011/12 as they were locally still local authority managed at the time.

    Edit to add - I didn't think child social care had gone up that much, but not surprising when you don't fix problems early on via surestart.
    Poor Gordon Brown, he just wanted children to have better lives and save everybody some money in the longterm.

    Your regular reminder that the coalition's austerity "cost saving" has proven to be very expensive.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,747
    edited October 17
    stodge said:

    Morning all
    Interesting set of local elections this week (3 results to come today still)
    The Surrey, Spelthorne etc wards went very much in line with recent trends and polling - LDs in command, Reform fighting Tories for second. Guildford and Surrey Heath look fairly solid for Lib Dem defence next time as we stand and Spelthorne looks vulnerable to a Tory loss to LD perhaps - Green collapse was a bit eye watering in Staines given their recent surge
    Preston a very impressive LD gain ad Labour in real trouble everywhere.
    Copdock a Ref gain from LD for the first time and South Suffolk looks like a very gainable Reform target
    Ayr won by an independent local business owner, tory vote collapsed. Reform not looking like major challengers. Ayr SNP hold at Holyrood I'd suggest.
    Impressive Tory gain in Trafford with vote holding up as Lab collapsed. Probably assisted by a relatively large Hindu population which is a strong demographic for them right now, Reform fourth so Old Lady Brady's Altrincham looks a good bet for a Tory regain from Labour as we stand (the little blue group of Chester and Eddisbury, Tatton, Altrincham might well be the sole blue island in the NW if Fylde drops)

    Yes, we still have the Surrey county seat in Caterham Valley and the district seats in Tandridge and Reigate & Banstead which are counting this morning.

    The intriguing part about the Trafford result was the turnout - close to 50% - which is very good for a local council by-election - and by all accounts the Conservatives, Labour, LDs AND Reform all worked the seat.

    I believe there is some some evidence Reform are not so effective in higher turnout contests but I've not looked into that in as much detail and it may be where they face significant local competition it's much harder for them - no surprise.
    Very big turnout in Trafford, yes. Its one of those results that seems to give a big steer for 'next time' - there was a similar big turnout Tory council ward gain in Leicester East in the middle of the Truss meltdown in 2022 that screamed Leicester East gain despite it seeming insane. Altrincham not of course insane as its a Tory seat usually but on this result I think a fairly comfortable regain likely.
    New Statesman has some data/thoughts on higher turnouts recently (not read it yet) if you're interested
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,371
    Re discussions about 'the rich'.

    One determinant may be when the daily movements on the financial markets make you thousands of pounds richer or poorer.

    It certainly makes those spending their time in bookies or obsessing on niche betting websites look small time in comparison.

    This determinant can only properly be appreciated by those with DC pensions.
  • Dopermean said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Second - and slightly offtopic but this is the situation with social care - it's consuming the budget of every council...

    Edit - removed chart, it showed that in 2011-12 Hampshire had a budget of £715m with £380m or so spent on social care.

    Now it's £1075m of which £875m(ish) is social care.

    So council tax has gone up but there is nothing left to spend on anything else because the Tory party pushed social care spending onto the council budget.

    What even is “social care”? Is this all paying for people to stay in old people’s homes or does it include things like taxis for kids to get to school?
    It's both - the chart came from https://x.com/AaronBastani/status/1978854635403182300/photo/1

    And child services has gone up a lot, although some of that would have been hidden in school budgets back in 2011/12 as they were locally still local authority managed at the time.

    Edit to add - I didn't think child social care had gone up that much, but not surprising when you don't fix problems early on via surestart.
    Poor Gordon Brown, he just wanted children to have better lives and save everybody some money in the longterm.

    Your regular reminder that the coalition's austerity "cost saving" has proven to be very expensive.

    If it was spending that was in the school's budget in 2011/12 and is now in Council's budgets in 2025/26, then it is no more expensive today than it was then, its just that its been shuffled around.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,614

    The reason people think the UK is doing worse than comparable countries is that they do not know how badly the comparable countries are also doing.

    We go to comparable countries on holiday and sip coffee in the sunshine. Then assume that life there is a bed of roses.
    More - "In the authentic local places, a 3 course meal is 47p. Awesome."

    People never think *why* that is so.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    An interesting FT piece (full link): http://bit.ly/48A08jH

    (Am I allowed to post these - this is an indirect archive link?)

    People here are free to give 5% or 10% of their income to good causes, ideally local where they have most impact, of course.

    Or we could balance up the tax system better.

    No, anything that links to websites like archive.is which allows people to bypass paywalls is a no no.

    News organisations are getting very annoyed at websites that rob them of their income.
    Don't the news organisations get to choose whether sites like archive.is are able to scrape their content or not? I believe some don't allow it.

    If they choose to allow it, then they can hardly complain that it happens.
    They send cease and desist letters which get ignored.

    Most serious legal letter OGH ever received was from The Times when Plato was copying and pasting dozens of entire articles from behind the paywall
    Fun fact, Plato turned to posting hundreds of links which is why I subscribed to the Telegraph in order follow them, which costs more than £1 a day. It went up a lot this year.

    Other fun fact, I used to waste hours following Plato's links to American stories which invariably turned out not to be what she claimed. I do not think she read them or watched the videos herself but was simply pasting whatever links showed up in her alt-right feeds.

    But I've largely given up now, which is why I have no informed opinion on whether Portland is home to the drug-crazed, crime-ridden, zombie apocalypse some posters warned us about, or not.
    It’s not

    It is quite edgy and sad downtown, with a fair number of druggies all over the place, but it’s not Armageddon

    If I lived in Portland I’d really not like it. But I wouldn’t be frightened for my life and they don’t need the army. They just need a tough new mayor like the one in San Francisco
    Particularly as the constitutional/federal legislative bar to any such thing is extremely high.

    Even if it were far more crime ridden than it is (as indeed is the case with not a few cities in Republican governed states), that doesn't provide legal justification for an administration to send in the military.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,956

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    Except that a lot of us are - I don't doubt - saving for care in our old age. Which is a Good Thing according to PBwisdom.

    And when you get older, it's bad to have too much of one's savings in equities lest they do a nose-dive just when one needs the cash. Which is Sensible according to universal wisdom.

    In fact, right now I'm mulling whether it is a good to use any more of my ISA allowance on equities, given the news.

    Don't know how you can resolve the conflict ...

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,578
    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    The first link I found, only for data since 2019, shows Britain outperforming France and Japan. The graph makes the comparison with some of the other countries less clear.

    https://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-gdp-per-capita-by-g7-country-2019-2029f/

    You'll appreciate the title, though Biden was President for most of that period, so I'm not sure how it fits your thesis that a war on woke is necessary to rescue the economy.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,614

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    The main determinant of financial well being pretty much always come back to housing status.

    If you own your own home with mortgage paid of you should be on financial easy street.

    If you rent then you're likely to be struggling.
    One nation Conservatives used to understand this, understand that we need everyone to own their own property.

    I am much nearer to creating one nation than Labour will ever be. Socialism is two nations. The privileged rulers, and everyone else. And it always gets to that. What I am desperately trying to do is create one nation with everyone being a man of property, or having the opportunity to be a man of property.

    Then for some reason the term got hijacked by people who like other concepts and believe that letting out properties is the future instead of ensuring that everyone can own their own.

    We need a return to one nation, but no party offers that.
    The whole housing comedy came out of an unplanned confluence of interests. Need to finish my piece on Blobs and why they are eternal. And how to change them.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,105
    edited October 17
    "EPPING FOREST - Chigwell Parish Council -
    Buckhurst Hill Ward

    Ref gain 2 from Con
    Ref 493 483
    Con 417 351
    Grn 355 327
    Ind 187
    LD 180
    Ind 70
    Ind 63

    Turnout 29%"

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19361/2025-parish-community-council-elections?page=18
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210
    We should be doing this.
    It would be far more cost effective than buying additional F35s (and can carry the most capable UK missiles that they can't), and would mean more of the defence budget gets spent in the UK.

    (Tempest will take a decade or more to deliver.)

    Germany's commitment to buy an additional 20 @Eurofighter Typhoons which is great news for securing highly-skilled UK manufacturing jobs.

    More than a third of every aircraft will be built by our people in the North of England, which sit at the heart of the UK’s combat air industry.

    https://x.com/BAESystemsAir/status/1978732681572622547
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,105
    viewcode said:

    @Cyclefree responded to my query and the cancer has not spread to her pancreas. It's not 100% and checks are continuing, but at the moment the belief is is that her pancreas is cancer-free.

    Positive news.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,371

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    The first link I found, only for data since 2019, shows Britain outperforming France and Japan. The graph makes the comparison with some of the other countries less clear.

    https://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-gdp-per-capita-by-g7-country-2019-2029f/

    You'll appreciate the title, though Biden was President for most of that period, so I'm not sure how it fits your thesis that a war on woke is necessary to rescue the economy.
    So the UK is predicted to have the second highest GDP per capita in the G7 in 2029.

    Yet we're regularly treated to claims that Poland is about to overtake the UK on GDP per capita.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,044
    Nigelb said:

    On topic, there's a fair amount of truth in this.

    https://x.com/peterrhague/status/1978895512276214053
    One notable thing about living in the UK is how prices increasingly don’t have much relation to reality.

    * mortgages and rents are dictated by huge government manipulation of both supply and demand
    * consumer prices are driven by a high and not universally applied VAT, with Byzantine rules for exemptions
    * energy prices are basically made up for political reasons
    * the NHS prices are completely hidden in the tax system
    * new car prices are driven by demand from the absurd Motability scheme, and by punitive import tariffs
    * increasingly flat wages converge towards a legal minimum, and employment costs are significantly higher than wages due to the way NI works.

    This heavily manipulated market is not working, and the government responds typically by further market manipulation (eg introducing universal rent controls) in an effort to make unhappy voting blocs wealthier by diktat.


    On the highlighted point, the number of those on very low pay (hourly earnings below two-thirds of the median hourly wage) has dropped like a stone, since the minimum wage now exceeds this number.

    But this also means there's a very large number in employment with a very small wage differential between those at the bottom and those higher up.

    BS imo
    Rents are distorted by greedy private landlords and a lack of Council Housing.
    Consumer prices are driven high by out of control Capitalism and ridiculous Boardroom pay
    Energy prices are high due to failed privatisation and see e above
    For all other points see 2 above
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067
    edited October 17

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    The first link I found, only for data since 2019, shows Britain outperforming France and Japan. The graph makes the comparison with some of the other countries less clear.

    https://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-gdp-per-capita-by-g7-country-2019-2029f/

    You'll appreciate the title, though Biden was President for most of that period, so I'm not sure how it fits your thesis that a war on woke is necessary to rescue the economy.
    So the UK is predicted to have the second highest GDP per capita in the G7 in 2029.

    Yet we're regularly treated to claims that Poland is about to overtake the UK on GDP per capita.
    The predictions are total bullshit

    From 2025 it has British gdp per capita growth suddenly accelerating away from everyone else bar the USA. Why? How? Where’s this sudden growth spurt coming from? Is there any sign of it under Skyr and Tiny Tears? Nope

    It’s piffle
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,814
    Voters may want the Chancellor to increase borrowing rather than tax but as Truss found out that is not an option the markets will accept.

    Most likely though she won't increase income tax, national insurance or VAT in line with the Labour manifesto. However she probably will freeze the income tax threshold and increase capital gains tax and possibly have a mansion tax too
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,578
    Fishing said:

    The premise of the first opinion poll question is a bit silly - opinion polls work best when they ask people about something they have a clue about and, despite the millions spent on economic education, few enough (certainly not 89%) know what GDP is or have no idea about the economic situation in Canada or Japan. Also anybody who follows these matters knows that the IMF's projections (or any others for that matter) have pretty dismal records,

    So I'm surprised at a reputable pollster formulating it in this rather leading way and not really sure what they were trying to achieve.

    I think it's a measure of the sense of pervading doom that is emanating from Britain that people don't realise that most other Western countries are also struggling with an ageing population, and the problems Britain is having are not uniquely awful.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,759

    Re discussions about 'the rich'.

    One determinant may be when the daily movements on the financial markets make you thousands of pounds richer or poorer.

    It certainly makes those spending their time in bookies or obsessing on niche betting websites look small time in comparison.

    This determinant can only properly be appreciated by those with DC pensions.

    I think you are really rich once you reach the point that you don't have to care about movements on the stock market, or about money in general. The money is always there, to enable you to do the things you want to do.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210
    I suspect this is because he thinks the order to execute alleged drug smugglers by airstrike (on what appress to be very thin evidence) is blatantly illegal.
    The US military swears an oath to the constitution, not the president.

    A commander quitting mid operation like this is extremely unusual.

    The U.S. military commander overseeing the escalating attacks against boats in the Caribbean Sea is said to be stepping down.
    https://x.com/nytimes/status/1978921428163404253
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,814

    stodge said:

    Morning all
    Interesting set of local elections this week (3 results to come today still)
    The Surrey, Spelthorne etc wards went very much in line with recent trends and polling - LDs in command, Reform fighting Tories for second. Guildford and Surrey Heath look fairly solid for Lib Dem defence next time as we stand and Spelthorne looks vulnerable to a Tory loss to LD perhaps - Green collapse was a bit eye watering in Staines given their recent surge
    Preston a very impressive LD gain ad Labour in real trouble everywhere.
    Copdock a Ref gain from LD for the first time and South Suffolk looks like a very gainable Reform target
    Ayr won by an independent local business owner, tory vote collapsed. Reform not looking like major challengers. Ayr SNP hold at Holyrood I'd suggest.
    Impressive Tory gain in Trafford with vote holding up as Lab collapsed. Probably assisted by a relatively large Hindu population which is a strong demographic for them right now, Reform fourth so Old Lady Brady's Altrincham looks a good bet for a Tory regain from Labour as we stand (the little blue group of Chester and Eddisbury, Tatton, Altrincham might well be the sole blue island in the NW if Fylde drops)

    Yes, we still have the Surrey county seat in Caterham Valley and the district seats in Tandridge and Reigate & Banstead which are counting this morning.

    The intriguing part about the Trafford result was the turnout - close to 50% - which is very good for a local council by-election - and by all accounts the Conservatives, Labour, LDs AND Reform all worked the seat.

    I believe there is some some evidence Reform are not so effective in higher turnout contests but I've not looked into that in as much detail and it may be where they face significant local competition it's much harder for them - no surprise.
    Very big turnout in Trafford, yes. Its one of those results that seems to give a big steer for 'next time' - there was a similar big turnout Tory council ward gain in Leicester East in the middle of the Truss meltdown in 2022 that screamed Leicester East gain despite it seeming insane. Altrincham not of course insane as its a Tory seat usually but on this result I think a fairly comfortable regain likely.
    New Statesman has some data/thoughts on higher turnouts recently (not read it yet) if you're interested
    Altrincham also voted Remain and the Tories were able to pick up enough ex Labour voters to offset votes lost to Reform
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,408
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    Except that a lot of us are - I don't doubt - saving for care in our old age. Which is a Good Thing according to PBwisdom.

    And when you get older, it's bad to have too much of one's savings in equities lest they do a nose-dive just when one needs the cash. Which is Sensible according to universal wisdom.

    In fact, right now I'm mulling whether it is a good to use any more of my ISA allowance on equities, given the news.

    Don't know how you can resolve the conflict ...

    "it's bad to have too much of one's savings in equities lest they do a nose-dive just when one needs the cash"

    Whilst it is obviously true it is bad to have "too much" in equities by definition, the thinking around that was mostly historically driven by the pre 2015 landscape where people had to buy an annuity by 75.

    It is far less an issue when you can manage this yourself via gradual drawdown. The benefits of staying heavily in equities may well outweigh the risks for many nowadays.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,814

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    The main determinant of financial well being pretty much always come back to housing status.

    If you own your own home with mortgage paid of you should be on financial easy street.

    If you rent then you're likely to be struggling.
    One nation Conservatives used to understand this, understand that we need everyone to own their own property.

    I am much nearer to creating one nation than Labour will ever be. Socialism is two nations. The privileged rulers, and everyone else. And it always gets to that. What I am desperately trying to do is create one nation with everyone being a man of property, or having the opportunity to be a man of property.

    Then for some reason the term got hijacked by people who like other concepts and believe that letting out properties is the future instead of ensuring that everyone can own their own.

    We need a return to one nation, but no party offers that.
    Labour are pushing house building even in the greenbelt and some Tory councils have plans for significant numbers of new homes despite Nimby LD, Reform and Green opposition.

    While we want most to own their own home trying to ensure everyone does won't work, it just sees banks and building societies lending too much to low earners which was the cause of the 2008 crash
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,408
    Sean_F said:

    Re discussions about 'the rich'.

    One determinant may be when the daily movements on the financial markets make you thousands of pounds richer or poorer.

    It certainly makes those spending their time in bookies or obsessing on niche betting websites look small time in comparison.

    This determinant can only properly be appreciated by those with DC pensions.

    I think you are really rich once you reach the point that you don't have to care about movements on the stock market, or about money in general. The money is always there, to enable you to do the things you want to do.
    And when one reaches that stage people start to believe that to be "really rich" you have homes in at least 3 countries and at least one of a boat or private jet. It is amazing how few people are willing to accept they are rich.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,956

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    I suspect that in growth of GDP per capita, in recent years, Britain is either at the bottom or is bottom of the G7

    And its GDP per capita that counts. We have let in 10 million people and got no richer because of it. And in many ways we are poorer as a society - more fractured, angry and atomised

    And recently Italy overtook us. Il Sorpasso

    Piece in the FT asking "Are we earning enough?" - a question for middle class types about whether enough is enough when even chicken and sides is £15 in Nandos: https://www.ft.com/content/eef94ba2-eaab-4507-a1c0-4ad1d997bd4c

    I don't care what the stats say about growth - in the real economy most people are low on cash and not spending freely.

    If we do something about the low on cash bit we can address the inability to spend. And we do need free cash to spend - that's someone else's job, someone else's business. And thus tax receipts coming in, matched by economic activity.

    Starter for 10 - energy costs. Decouple energy prices from gas. And being in regional pricing. Could do that tomorrow and as energy prices fall by 25-40% we would make everything cheaper and cut the cost of living...
    Messier than that, though.

    Quite a lot of people- let's be honest, quite a lot of us, here- have more cash than we really know what to do with. Savings ratios are going up, probably not in a good way. Plenty more don't, but that's Two Nations for you.
    Except that a lot of us are - I don't doubt - saving for care in our old age. Which is a Good Thing according to PBwisdom.

    And when you get older, it's bad to have too much of one's savings in equities lest they do a nose-dive just when one needs the cash. Which is Sensible according to universal wisdom.

    In fact, right now I'm mulling whether it is a good to use any more of my ISA allowance on equities, given the news.

    Don't know how you can resolve the conflict ...

    "it's bad to have too much of one's savings in equities lest they do a nose-dive just when one needs the cash"

    Whilst it is obviously true it is bad to have "too much" in equities by definition, the thinking around that was mostly historically driven by the pre 2015 landscape where people had to buy an annuity by 75.

    It is far less an issue when you can manage this yourself via gradual drawdown. The benefits of staying heavily in equities may well outweigh the risks for many nowadays.
    Sure, and thanks for the point.

    But the annuity issue is relevant to care, surely? One way of dealing with the cost of care (on top of any pre-existing pension etc.) is to buy an annuity at the time of need. Friend's mother fell significantly ill and had to move into a care home - the family obtained an annuity based on the medical prognosis. Happily she survived for much longer than expected, but that was just luck. Could have been the other way round. The main thing was that the family didn't need to worry about running out of money.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,895
    HYUFD said:

    Voters may want the Chancellor to increase borrowing rather than tax but as Truss found out that is not an option the markets will accept.

    Most likely though she won't increase income tax, national insurance or VAT in line with the Labour manifesto. However she probably will freeze the income tax threshold and increase capital gains tax and possibly have a mansion tax too

    The income tax personal allowance will have to be increased, in line with the increase in OA pension.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,874

    Sean_F said:

    Re discussions about 'the rich'.

    One determinant may be when the daily movements on the financial markets make you thousands of pounds richer or poorer.

    It certainly makes those spending their time in bookies or obsessing on niche betting websites look small time in comparison.

    This determinant can only properly be appreciated by those with DC pensions.

    I think you are really rich once you reach the point that you don't have to care about movements on the stock market, or about money in general. The money is always there, to enable you to do the things you want to do.
    And when one reaches that stage people start to believe that to be "really rich" you have homes in at least 3 countries and at least one of a boat or private jet. It is amazing how few people are willing to accept they are rich.
    And very few people are willing to accept that they are useless failures. Everyone wants to view themselves as normal.
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