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Will this damage the Greens in England & Wales? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,735
edited October 15 in General
Will this damage the Greens in England & Wales? – politicalbetting.com

EXCLUSIVE: Zack Polanski has backed Scottish and Welsh independence, The National can reveal?? 'We should be empowering our neighbours to be able to have everything that we want for ourselves, and that we want for them' pic.twitter.com/x0dpzWc3SE

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Comments

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,564
    This has been Green Party policy for ages.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,564
    My guess is that the voters most likely to be put out by this are those who would be least likely to vote for the Greens, so it shouldn't hurt them.

    If they can spark a controversy over it and get more coverage as a result, then I guess that would be a plus. But this is reported in the National, so not much chance of that unless it's picked up elsewhere.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,062
    "An upper-middle-class former banker friend recently attended a Reform UK selection meeting for council candidates in a decaying southern coastal town. Although he is a man of the world who once worked on oil rigs and in a shoe shop, my banker friend professed himself ‘shocked’ by the standards of dress and deportment of the other would-be candidates. Naturally all were overweight and tattooed, and all were dressed in shorts, baseball caps and hooded tracksuit tops – the standard everyday uniform of most British men under the age of 60. They were, it is fair to say, an average representation of the male members of what was once called ‘the working class’."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/real-british-values
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,331
    Is he saying that he'll give them independence if he wins? I might consider voting for him...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,646
    Andy_JS said:

    "An upper-middle-class former banker friend recently attended a Reform UK selection meeting for council candidates in a decaying southern coastal town. Although he is a man of the world who once worked on oil rigs and in a shoe shop, my banker friend professed himself ‘shocked’ by the standards of dress and deportment of the other would-be candidates. Naturally all were overweight and tattooed, and all were dressed in shorts, baseball caps and hooded tracksuit tops – the standard everyday uniform of most British men under the age of 60. They were, it is fair to say, an average representation of the male members of what was once called ‘the working class’."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/real-british-values

    Just read that article as a freebie.

    Bloody hell they have some utter crap in The Spectator don't they.
  • The Greens supported the SNP on independence so it's natural they would do the same in Wales

    In Wales I do not see it making any impact because it is very much Plaid v Reform and there is little sign that will change
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,062
    Leon said:
    Can't wait.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,564

    Andy_JS said:

    "An upper-middle-class former banker friend recently attended a Reform UK selection meeting for council candidates in a decaying southern coastal town. Although he is a man of the world who once worked on oil rigs and in a shoe shop, my banker friend professed himself ‘shocked’ by the standards of dress and deportment of the other would-be candidates. Naturally all were overweight and tattooed, and all were dressed in shorts, baseball caps and hooded tracksuit tops – the standard everyday uniform of most British men under the age of 60. They were, it is fair to say, an average representation of the male members of what was once called ‘the working class’."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/real-british-values

    Just read that article as a freebie.

    Bloody hell they have some utter crap in The Spectator don't they.
    I don't think anyone reads any periodical for the worst article in each issue, and I'm going to charitably assume that the linked article is not the highlight of the Spectator's week.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,737

    The Greens supported the SNP on independence so it's natural they would do the same in Wales

    In Wales I do not see it making any impact because it is very much Plaid v Reform and there is little sign that will change

    Yep, very unlikely the greens will be much of a factor in Welsh politics.short of a surge, they look set to perhaps pick up a single member in the Cardiff Penarth pair next May
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,134

    Andy_JS said:

    "An upper-middle-class former banker friend recently attended a Reform UK selection meeting for council candidates in a decaying southern coastal town. Although he is a man of the world who once worked on oil rigs and in a shoe shop, my banker friend professed himself ‘shocked’ by the standards of dress and deportment of the other would-be candidates. Naturally all were overweight and tattooed, and all were dressed in shorts, baseball caps and hooded tracksuit tops – the standard everyday uniform of most British men under the age of 60. They were, it is fair to say, an average representation of the male members of what was once called ‘the working class’."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/real-british-values

    Just read that article as a freebie.

    Bloody hell they have some utter crap in The Spectator don't they.
    Demand a refund.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,564
    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,134
    Don't see why it would damage them. Presumably it hasn't occurred to them to back English independence.

    Did they back Brexit?
  • The Greens supported the SNP on independence so it's natural they would do the same in Wales

    In Wales I do not see it making any impact because it is very much Plaid v Reform and there is little sign that will change

    A choice between two nationalist parties for the Senedd (one a British, indeed English, variety, the other Welsh) with The Greens also playing for the secessonist vote ought to make it a lot easier for the Unionist parties - particularly I would suggest, the Lib Dems, who can also play the anti-establishment card.

    In all seriousness, if I was a Unionist in Wales, I would go hard with the line that ReformUK and Plaid are two cheeks of the same nationalist a**e.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,006

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,207
    edited October 15

    Andy_JS said:

    "An upper-middle-class former banker friend recently attended a Reform UK selection meeting for council candidates in a decaying southern coastal town. Although he is a man of the world who once worked on oil rigs and in a shoe shop, my banker friend professed himself ‘shocked’ by the standards of dress and deportment of the other would-be candidates. Naturally all were overweight and tattooed, and all were dressed in shorts, baseball caps and hooded tracksuit tops – the standard everyday uniform of most British men under the age of 60. They were, it is fair to say, an average representation of the male members of what was once called ‘the working class’."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/real-british-values

    Just read that article as a freebie.

    Bloody hell they have some utter crap in The Spectator don't they.
    They'll let anybody write for that paper magazine blog.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,562
    Leon said:
    Good luck with that. London’s one of the worst cities for SD cars.

    Because at the moment the humans can’t understand the cacophony of signs at certain junctions.

    Councils also need to be very clear that every yellow box junction infringement and bus lane infringement and LTN infringement will accumulate exponentially increasing fines on the operators.

    Make that £100 infringement for the 10th time today, and your last fine is £51,200, to be paid within a fortnight otherwise they all double.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232
    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    How they get on with London's cyclists and pedestrians will be crucial - and vastly different to the kind of journey they do in the US.

    I dearly hope it's fine; any collision will go viral and the more myopic of the cycling lobby will do what they can to ban them despite the long term improvements they will surely bring.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,940
    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,618
    Electing a Trot as leader hasn't damaged them, so yet another policy with no relevance to environmentalism should be fine for them.
  • The Greens supported the SNP on independence so it's natural they would do the same in Wales

    In Wales I do not see it making any impact because it is very much Plaid v Reform and there is little sign that will change

    A choice between two nationalist parties for the Senedd (one a British, indeed English, variety, the other Welsh) with The Greens also playing for the secessonist vote ought to make it a lot easier for the Unionist parties - particularly I would suggest, the Lib Dems, who can also play the anti-establishment card.

    In all seriousness, if I was a Unionist in Wales, I would go hard with the line that ReformUK and Plaid are two cheeks of the same nationalist a**e.
    As of now I do not see anything changing the direct fight between Plaid and Reform
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,737

    The Greens supported the SNP on independence so it's natural they would do the same in Wales

    In Wales I do not see it making any impact because it is very much Plaid v Reform and there is little sign that will change

    A choice between two nationalist parties for the Senedd (one a British, indeed English, variety, the other Welsh) with The Greens also playing for the secessonist vote ought to make it a lot easier for the Unionist parties - particularly I would suggest, the Lib Dems, who can also play the anti-establishment card.

    In all seriousness, if I was a Unionist in Wales, I would go hard with the line that ReformUK and Plaid are two cheeks of the same nationalist a**e.
    Welsh Lib Dems problem is really that they are only really in the fight in Brecon, Ceredigion and Cardiff East. Everywhere else the Unionist vote is all about Labour (Valleys, Swansea, Cardiff, Vale, Flintshire, Monmouthshire) or the Tories (Monmouthshire, Vale, Pembrokeshire, Montgomery, Clwyd, Conwy, Flintshire) turning out their core vote to maximise Members elected
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    Uber Luxury for the win, a fortnight ago the Uber Luxury that took us from Claridge’s to St Pancras was a Range Rover.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,542

    The Greens supported the SNP on independence so it's natural they would do the same in Wales

    In Wales I do not see it making any impact because it is very much Plaid v Reform and there is little sign that will change

    A choice between two nationalist parties for the Senedd (one a British, indeed English, variety, the other Welsh) with The Greens also playing for the secessonist vote ought to make it a lot easier for the Unionist parties - particularly I would suggest, the Lib Dems, who can also play the anti-establishment card.

    In all seriousness, if I was a Unionist in Wales, I would go hard with the line that ReformUK and Plaid are two cheeks of the same nationalist a**e.
    The Unionist parties in Scotland have already tried that to little effect. I would imagine doing it while bedecked in Union flags somewhat dilutes the effect of any ‘nationalist arse’ patter.

    Does Reform count as a Unionist party? I’d love it if they turn up their abolish the devolved parliaments stuff, though as with everything else they won’t have the balls to be honest about it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,562
    edited October 15
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”, that company has standard car insurance.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,940

    The Greens supported the SNP on independence so it's natural they would do the same in Wales

    In Wales I do not see it making any impact because it is very much Plaid v Reform and there is little sign that will change

    A choice between two nationalist parties for the Senedd (one a British, indeed English, variety, the other Welsh) with The Greens also playing for the secessonist vote ought to make it a lot easier for the Unionist parties - particularly I would suggest, the Lib Dems, who can also play the anti-establishment card.

    In all seriousness, if I was a Unionist in Wales, I would go hard with the line that ReformUK and Plaid are two cheeks of the same nationalist a**e.
    The Unionist parties in Scotland have already tried that to little effect. I would imagine doing it while bedecked in Union flags somewhat dilutes the effect of any ‘nationalist arse’ patter.

    Does Reform count as a Unionist party? I’d love it if they turn up their abolish the devolved parliaments stuff, though as with everything else they won’t have the balls to be honest about it.
    Funny thing is that Reform would normally depend on the devolved admins to have their best chance at votes making actual seats - except that they may end up doing worse in them than in Westminster just because of the aberrant effect of first past the post.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,564
    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    I was thinking they would be of more use to tourists, people down to London for a West End show, etc, rather than Londoners at first.

    Will be interesting to see where the edge of Waymo London is on day one. But even central London is a statement of intent.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,737

    The Greens supported the SNP on independence so it's natural they would do the same in Wales

    In Wales I do not see it making any impact because it is very much Plaid v Reform and there is little sign that will change

    A choice between two nationalist parties for the Senedd (one a British, indeed English, variety, the other Welsh) with The Greens also playing for the secessonist vote ought to make it a lot easier for the Unionist parties - particularly I would suggest, the Lib Dems, who can also play the anti-establishment card.

    In all seriousness, if I was a Unionist in Wales, I would go hard with the line that ReformUK and Plaid are two cheeks of the same nationalist a**e.
    As of now I do not see anything changing the direct fight between Plaid and Reform
    I think it will end up a question on whether Labour do well enough to get into junior coalition with Plaid or the Tories get enough to allow a Reform minority administration (to be collapsed when polling turns)
  • On topic, it's the classic far left knee-jerk that every debate in politics can be characterised as oppressor vs oppressed, that which is which is obvious, and that the solution is to give the latter precisely what they want. So independence for Scotland and Wales, but not Northern Ireland - they should join Ireland because, y'know, Cromwell.

    There's no real sense of what the actual challenges are (including the environmental ones) and the best structures for dealing with them. Do we really get closer to a more sustainable energy grid across the UK by chopping ourselves up into independent units? Probably not, but all that stuff is outt of the window with Polanski, in favour of adolescent posturing.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,753

    Andy_JS said:

    "An upper-middle-class former banker friend recently attended a Reform UK selection meeting for council candidates in a decaying southern coastal town. Although he is a man of the world who once worked on oil rigs and in a shoe shop, my banker friend professed himself ‘shocked’ by the standards of dress and deportment of the other would-be candidates. Naturally all were overweight and tattooed, and all were dressed in shorts, baseball caps and hooded tracksuit tops – the standard everyday uniform of most British men under the age of 60. They were, it is fair to say, an average representation of the male members of what was once called ‘the working class’."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/real-british-values

    Just read that article as a freebie.

    Bloody hell they have some utter crap in The Spectator don't they.
    As an alternative view, these are people who have a job, connected to the local community, and speak from experience. Bankers? Not so much.
  • The Greens supported the SNP on independence so it's natural they would do the same in Wales

    In Wales I do not see it making any impact because it is very much Plaid v Reform and there is little sign that will change

    A choice between two nationalist parties for the Senedd (one a British, indeed English, variety, the other Welsh) with The Greens also playing for the secessonist vote ought to make it a lot easier for the Unionist parties - particularly I would suggest, the Lib Dems, who can also play the anti-establishment card.

    In all seriousness, if I was a Unionist in Wales, I would go hard with the line that ReformUK and Plaid are two cheeks of the same nationalist a**e.
    Welsh Lib Dems problem is really that they are only really in the fight in Brecon, Ceredigion and Cardiff East. Everywhere else the Unionist vote is all about Labour (Valleys, Swansea, Cardiff, Vale, Flintshire, Monmouthshire) or the Tories (Monmouthshire, Vale, Pembrokeshire, Montgomery, Clwyd, Conwy, Flintshire) turning out their core vote to maximise Members elected
    I don't disagree, but FWIW I have also heard it suggested that with a following wind and enough voter amnesia there might be an outside chance for the 6th seat in Cardiff North. (I don't think so, but I am a long way away.)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232
    edited October 15
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,359
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    How they get on with London's cyclists and pedestrians will be crucial - and vastly different to the kind of journey they do in the US.

    I dearly hope it's fine; any collision will go viral and the more myopic of the cycling lobby will do what they can to ban them despite the long term improvements they will surely bring.
    Forget the cyclists and pedestrians, the teenagers will have a blast trying to trick and harass the waymos. Inevitable in the UK, probably not a thing in most of the US.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,872
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    It's fairly unlikely that these small companies would be licensed to run without insurance - just like minicabs.

    Hopefully the ONS will start to track these insurance premiums; they should give us a real word indication of safety verses other forms of spot hire vehicle.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,006

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    Uber Luxury for the win, a fortnight ago the Uber Luxury that took us from Claridge’s to St Pancras was a Range Rover.
    Take a Waymo if you haven’t. Within 5 minutes you understand why they are massively superior (once you overcome your instinctive terror)

    I noticed in LA that this terror is persistent in some. I met several Angelenos who refused to use them - “dangerous, don’t trust them”. But these people are like Edwardians who mistrusted escalators

    Data shows that waymos are so vastly preferable people will wait longer and pay more for them despite the drawbacks (won’t take freeways, can’t stop exactly where you want etc)
  • Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232
    edited October 15
    Foss said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    It's fairly unlikely that these small companies would be licensed to run without insurance - just like minicabs.

    Hopefully the ONS will start to track these insurance premiums; they should give us a real word indication of safety verses other forms of spot hire vehicle.
    The benefit of automatic fines is the Waymo could operate at the optimal speed for road conditions - dead slow around Westminster/Soho etc, 100mph on the M25 at 5am.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    Uber Luxury for the win, a fortnight ago the Uber Luxury that took us from Claridge’s to St Pancras was a Range Rover.
    Take a Waymo if you haven’t. Within 5 minutes you understand why they are massively superior (once you overcome your instinctive terror)

    I noticed in LA that this terror is persistent in some. I met several Angelenos who refused to use them - “dangerous, don’t trust them”. But these people are like Edwardians who mistrusted escalators

    Data shows that waymos are so vastly preferable people will wait longer and pay more for them despite the drawbacks (won’t take freeways, can’t stop exactly where you want etc)
    My colleagues have used Waymos, nearly always the vehicles were a mess.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,562
    edited October 15
    Foss said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    It's fairly unlikely that these small companies would be licensed to run without insurance - just like minicabs.

    Hopefully the ONS will start to track these insurance premiums; they should give us a real word indication of safety verses other forms of spot hire vehicle.
    Oh they’ll have insurance, but it will have standard maximum car insurance limits on it connected to a limited liability company, set up deliberately to minimise risk on the part of global tech giants.

    BOW123 Ltd could fail to file accounts and a judgement against them become totally unenforceable, especially if their car got written off several months ago thanks to your accident, and they have no assets because they leased the car.

    If the cars are being run by Google, you need to be able to sue Google, especially if there’s a class action covering several accidents for the same known fault.
  • Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    How they get on with London's cyclists and pedestrians will be crucial - and vastly different to the kind of journey they do in the US.

    I dearly hope it's fine; any collision will go viral and the more myopic of the cycling lobby will do what they can to ban them despite the long term improvements they will surely bring.
    Forget the cyclists and pedestrians, the teenagers will have a blast trying to trick and harass the waymos. Inevitable in the UK, probably not a thing in most of the US.
    Indeed - never underestimate the British ability to do total sh!thouse behaviour. Can't wait for Waymo to give Manchester a go. I am sure the locals will send them the way of Mobike - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-45422065

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,737
    edited October 15

    The Greens supported the SNP on independence so it's natural they would do the same in Wales

    In Wales I do not see it making any impact because it is very much Plaid v Reform and there is little sign that will change

    A choice between two nationalist parties for the Senedd (one a British, indeed English, variety, the other Welsh) with The Greens also playing for the secessonist vote ought to make it a lot easier for the Unionist parties - particularly I would suggest, the Lib Dems, who can also play the anti-establishment card.

    In all seriousness, if I was a Unionist in Wales, I would go hard with the line that ReformUK and Plaid are two cheeks of the same nationalist a**e.
    Welsh Lib Dems problem is really that they are only really in the fight in Brecon, Ceredigion and Cardiff East. Everywhere else the Unionist vote is all about Labour (Valleys, Swansea, Cardiff, Vale, Flintshire, Monmouthshire) or the Tories (Monmouthshire, Vale, Pembrokeshire, Montgomery, Clwyd, Conwy, Flintshire) turning out their core vote to maximise Members elected
    I don't disagree, but FWIW I have also heard it suggested that with a following wind and enough voter amnesia there might be an outside chance for the 6th seat in Cardiff North. (I don't think so, but I am a long way away.)
    Cardiff North is the other half of Cardiff East in the Caerdydd Ffynon Taff constituency. The LD strength in Cardiff East should see them win one seat here, two is very unlikely unless the Tory Cardiff North vote collapses directly to them.
    They should win one in Brecon/Neath and Swansea East but weakness in the latter may be a problem and maybe one in Ceredigion/Pembrokeshire (again the latter is the problem).
    They have a little strength in Montgomery but its paired with Dwyfor where they'll get buttons (ditto Tories here)
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,966

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    From the FAQ: “Barking and Dagenham, Brent, Camden, Ealing, Royal Borough of Greenwich, Hackney, Hammersmith and Fulham, Haringey, Islington, Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, Lambeth, Lewisham, Newham, Redbridge, Southwark, Tower Hamlets, Waltham Forest, Wandsworth, City of Westminster, and the City of London.”

    https://waymo.com/waymo-in-uk

    Not commercial yet - this is a trial only.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232
    edited October 15

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,618

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    Uber Luxury for the win, a fortnight ago the Uber Luxury that took us from Claridge’s to St Pancras was a Range Rover.
    Take a Waymo if you haven’t. Within 5 minutes you understand why they are massively superior (once you overcome your instinctive terror)

    I noticed in LA that this terror is persistent in some. I met several Angelenos who refused to use them - “dangerous, don’t trust them”. But these people are like Edwardians who mistrusted escalators

    Data shows that waymos are so vastly preferable people will wait longer and pay more for them despite the drawbacks (won’t take freeways, can’t stop exactly where you want etc)
    My colleagues have used Waymos, nearly always the vehicles were a mess.
    Due to Leon getting over excited during his journey.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,006

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    Uber Luxury for the win, a fortnight ago the Uber Luxury that took us from Claridge’s to St Pancras was a Range Rover.
    Take a Waymo if you haven’t. Within 5 minutes you understand why they are massively superior (once you overcome your instinctive terror)

    I noticed in LA that this terror is persistent in some. I met several Angelenos who refused to use them - “dangerous, don’t trust them”. But these people are like Edwardians who mistrusted escalators

    Data shows that waymos are so vastly preferable people will wait longer and pay more for them despite the drawbacks (won’t take freeways, can’t stop exactly where you want etc)
    My colleagues have used Waymos, nearly always the vehicles were a mess.
    I find that hard to believe. I’ve taken 6. All immaculate
  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,160
    Re Robert's question from the last thread, perhaps an ion drive or solar sail in space.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,966

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    How they get on with London's cyclists and pedestrians will be crucial - and vastly different to the kind of journey they do in the US.

    I dearly hope it's fine; any collision will go viral and the more myopic of the cycling lobby will do what they can to ban them despite the long term improvements they will surely bring.
    Forget the cyclists and pedestrians, the teenagers will have a blast trying to trick and harass the waymos. Inevitable in the UK, probably not a thing in most of the US.
    People are people everywhere: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a69032975/san-francisco-tech-pranksters-waymo-self-driving-car-traffic-jam/
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,359
    Phil said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    How they get on with London's cyclists and pedestrians will be crucial - and vastly different to the kind of journey they do in the US.

    I dearly hope it's fine; any collision will go viral and the more myopic of the cycling lobby will do what they can to ban them despite the long term improvements they will surely bring.
    Forget the cyclists and pedestrians, the teenagers will have a blast trying to trick and harass the waymos. Inevitable in the UK, probably not a thing in most of the US.
    People are people everywhere: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a69032975/san-francisco-tech-pranksters-waymo-self-driving-car-traffic-jam/
    That is actually a lot more sophisticated than our scallies will be.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,160

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    Uber Luxury for the win, a fortnight ago the Uber Luxury that took us from Claridge’s to St Pancras was a Range Rover.
    Take a Waymo if you haven’t. Within 5 minutes you understand why they are massively superior (once you overcome your instinctive terror)

    I noticed in LA that this terror is persistent in some. I met several Angelenos who refused to use them - “dangerous, don’t trust them”. But these people are like Edwardians who mistrusted escalators

    Data shows that waymos are so vastly preferable people will wait longer and pay more for them despite the drawbacks (won’t take freeways, can’t stop exactly where you want etc)
    My colleagues have used Waymos, nearly always the vehicles were a mess.
    When they got in, or disembarked ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,006
    Phil said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    How they get on with London's cyclists and pedestrians will be crucial - and vastly different to the kind of journey they do in the US.

    I dearly hope it's fine; any collision will go viral and the more myopic of the cycling lobby will do what they can to ban them despite the long term improvements they will surely bring.
    Forget the cyclists and pedestrians, the teenagers will have a blast trying to trick and harass the waymos. Inevitable in the UK, probably not a thing in most of the US.
    People are people everywhere: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a69032975/san-francisco-tech-pranksters-waymo-self-driving-car-traffic-jam/
    It’s quite strange walking IN FRONT of a Waymo as it gives way to you, the pedestrian. Instinctively you lift a hand to say thanks, then you realise you’re an idiot, then you wonder - is there a camera? Can it think for itself? So you wave again. And do a little laughing jig. This is one aspect people don’t get. Waymos are fun - magical robot cars

    I saw people doing this to my waymo when I was inside and then I did it myself when I was the pedestrian
  • Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    Uber Luxury for the win, a fortnight ago the Uber Luxury that took us from Claridge’s to St Pancras was a Range Rover.
    Take a Waymo if you haven’t. Within 5 minutes you understand why they are massively superior (once you overcome your instinctive terror)

    I noticed in LA that this terror is persistent in some. I met several Angelenos who refused to use them - “dangerous, don’t trust them”. But these people are like Edwardians who mistrusted escalators

    Data shows that waymos are so vastly preferable people will wait longer and pay more for them despite the drawbacks (won’t take freeways, can’t stop exactly where you want etc)
    My colleagues have used Waymos, nearly always the vehicles were a mess.
    When they got in, or disembarked ?
    Before.
  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,160
    “British economist John Ross impishly told one interviewer that if the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences were honest, the Nobel Prize in Economics would have been awarded to Chinese economists every year for the past four decades.”
    https://x.com/DoggyDog1208/status/1978222377482756419

    "If Zhu Rongji* dies without a Nobel Prize in economics, the committee should just disband..."

    “As a practitioner, Zhu Rongji understood, in ways academic Nobel laureates cannot, that there was only one economic policy that truly mattered. Zhu knew in his bones that corruption was a cancer that cannot be tolerated:

    My only hope is that after I leave public service, the Chinese people will think of me in one way: that he was a clean official, not a corrupt one. I will be immensely satisfied with that judgment alone. But if they are feeling particularly generous and say that Zhu Rongji got some real things done while in office, then I’ll thank heaven and earth.”


    *former premier at the turn of the century.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,006
    There are 120,000 cab drivers (black cabs and Ubers etc) in London alone

    The Great Unemployment is about to kick off
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,448
    Nigelb said:

    “British economist John Ross impishly told one interviewer that if the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences were honest, the Nobel Prize in Economics would have been awarded to Chinese economists every year for the past four decades.”
    https://x.com/DoggyDog1208/status/1978222377482756419

    "If Zhu Rongji* dies without a Nobel Prize in economics, the committee should just disband..."

    “As a practitioner, Zhu Rongji understood, in ways academic Nobel laureates cannot, that there was only one economic policy that truly mattered. Zhu knew in his bones that corruption was a cancer that cannot be tolerated:

    My only hope is that after I leave public service, the Chinese people will think of me in one way: that he was a clean official, not a corrupt one. I will be immensely satisfied with that judgment alone. But if they are feeling particularly generous and say that Zhu Rongji got some real things done while in office, then I’ll thank heaven and earth.”


    *former premier at the turn of the century.

    What a peach he is:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ross_(blogger)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,149
    Leon said:
    Did a Tirana taxi driver tell you that?
  • Leon said:

    There are 120,000 cab drivers (black cabs and Ubers etc) in London alone

    The Great Unemployment is about to kick off

    Will this be bigger than What.Three.Words?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,737
    edited October 15
    https://x.com/PippaCrerar/status/1978482510628598217?s=19

    Pippa would like us to believe the deputy NSA chats to his mates about the details of a national security and court matter but not the PM, ministers or Johnny Powell
  • AndypetsAndypets Posts: 1
    Leon said:

    There are 120,000 cab drivers (black cabs and Ubers etc) in London alone

    The Great Unemployment is about to kick off

    That depends on the area.

    For central London Black cabs and minicabs - maybe.

    In outer London, the driverless cab will not be much use to the elderly and disabled who need a wheelchair putting in the boot, or someone to take their arm on the way to their front door. That's a sizeable part of the customer base for traditional minicab firms.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,358
    Leon said:
    Who is flying the plane?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232
    edited October 15

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you share the roads with others.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,207
    Andy_JS said:

    "An upper-middle-class former banker friend recently attended a Reform UK selection meeting for council candidates in a decaying southern coastal town. Although he is a man of the world who once worked on oil rigs and in a shoe shop, my banker friend professed himself ‘shocked’ by the standards of dress and deportment of the other would-be candidates. Naturally all were overweight and tattooed, and all were dressed in shorts, baseball caps and hooded tracksuit tops – the standard everyday uniform of most British men under the age of 60. They were, it is fair to say, an average representation of the male members of what was once called ‘the working class’."

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/real-british-values

    Sadly, I think his last line "Hypocrisy, I suggest, rather than tolerance or fair play, is the most typical and lasting British value, no matter what class you belong to" is correct and I was going to use something similar in a planned article. Still, now I can quote and blame him... :)
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,207
    edited October 15
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,890
    England Women vs Pakistan Women rained off. England get away with a point from a poor batting performance.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,006
    Andypets said:

    Leon said:

    There are 120,000 cab drivers (black cabs and Ubers etc) in London alone

    The Great Unemployment is about to kick off

    That depends on the area.

    For central London Black cabs and minicabs - maybe.

    In outer London, the driverless cab will not be much use to the elderly and disabled who need a wheelchair putting in the boot, or someone to take their arm on the way to their front door. That's a sizeable part of the customer base for traditional minicab firms.
    Sure. There are still plenty of human cabs in LA and SF. This will persist for years (until humanoid robots are ubiquitous, probably)

    But I can easily see Waymo taking 50%+ of the london taxi market (if the tech works in The Smoke), and pretty quickly

    That’s 60,000 jobs gone
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,362
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    And where a road is clear, conditions are fine and there are few other road users, it is safe to drive at the speed limit. Sometimes faster, although of course that is illegal
  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Our roads have never been safer than they are today, and we have driven consistently at 30mph [if not more] on clear roads since long before I was born, when death tolls were higher than today.

    So no, I don't think my idea of safe is quite different to others.

    Even if you take an absurd zero tolerance to risk and want to drag everyone down to the lowest common denominator, without any evidence.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,362
    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    How they get on with London's cyclists and pedestrians will be crucial - and vastly different to the kind of journey they do in the US.

    I dearly hope it's fine; any collision will go viral and the more myopic of the cycling lobby will do what they can to ban them despite the long term improvements they will surely bring.
    Forget the cyclists and pedestrians, the teenagers will have a blast trying to trick and harass the waymos. Inevitable in the UK, probably not a thing in most of the US.
    People are people everywhere: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a69032975/san-francisco-tech-pranksters-waymo-self-driving-car-traffic-jam/
    It’s quite strange walking IN FRONT of a Waymo as it gives way to you, the pedestrian. Instinctively you lift a hand to say thanks, then you realise you’re an idiot, then you wonder - is there a camera? Can it think for itself? So you wave again. And do a little laughing jig. This is one aspect people don’t get. Waymos are fun - magical robot cars

    I saw people doing this to my waymo when I was inside and then I did it myself when I was the pedestrian
    I say thank you to Chat GPT
  • Sandpit said:

    Leon said:
    Good luck with that. London’s one of the worst cities for SD cars.

    Because at the moment the humans can’t understand the cacophony of signs at certain junctions.

    Councils also need to be very clear that every yellow box junction infringement and bus lane infringement and LTN infringement will accumulate exponentially increasing fines on the operators.

    Make that £100 infringement for the 10th time today, and your last fine is £51,200, to be paid within a fortnight otherwise they all double.
    Presumably these Waymos will be programme to avoid bus lanes? That's going create havoc. There are times when you have to go iinto a bus lane to avoid creating gridlock. In fact I have often thought that a work-to-rule by London drivers would reduce the capital to a standstill within hours because if every driver follows every rule inflexibly the whole system just grinds to a halt.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,872
    edited October 15
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Someone walks off the pavement without looking immediately in front of a car and it costs £2,000,000?

    Foolish.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,490

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    Uber Luxury for the win, a fortnight ago the Uber Luxury that took us from Claridge’s to St Pancras was a Range Rover.
    Take a Waymo if you haven’t. Within 5 minutes you understand why they are massively superior (once you overcome your instinctive terror)

    I noticed in LA that this terror is persistent in some. I met several Angelenos who refused to use them - “dangerous, don’t trust them”. But these people are like Edwardians who mistrusted escalators

    Data shows that waymos are so vastly preferable people will wait longer and pay more for them despite the drawbacks (won’t take freeways, can’t stop exactly where you want etc)
    My colleagues have used Waymos, nearly always the vehicles were a mess.
    Before or after they'd used it?
  • Foss said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Someone walks off the pavement without looking immediately in front of a car and it costs £2,000,000?

    Foolish.
    Precisely.

    Especially if there is no link between fault and penalty, it reduces the liability from being at fault.

    To be fined the same for driving dangerously and killing an innocent person, or driving safely and someone committing suicide?

    That is a perverse and backwards incentive.

    We should be penalising being at fault heftily, but only if at fault. That way there is a financial incentive not to be involved in an at-fault collision, which is all anyone can or should be seeking.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,006
    edited October 15

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:
    Good luck with that. London’s one of the worst cities for SD cars.

    Because at the moment the humans can’t understand the cacophony of signs at certain junctions.

    Councils also need to be very clear that every yellow box junction infringement and bus lane infringement and LTN infringement will accumulate exponentially increasing fines on the operators.

    Make that £100 infringement for the 10th time today, and your last fine is £51,200, to be paid within a fortnight otherwise they all double.
    Presumably these Waymos will be programme to avoid bus lanes? That's going create havoc. There are times when you have to go iinto a bus lane to avoid creating gridlock. In fact I have often thought that a work-to-rule by London drivers would reduce the capital to a standstill within hours because if every driver follows every rule inflexibly the whole system just grinds to a halt.
    Driving on the west coast is infinitely easier than in the UK, ditto LA over london

    So London is perhaps the ultimate test. All those tiny medieval streets in the City

    Perhaps that’s why Google have chosen The Smoke. It’s a top tier, busy, chaotic world city but with narrow ancient streets in places (unlike NYC)

    It’s meant to be exemplary. If they can get it to work in London it can work anywhere
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232
    Foss said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Someone walks off the pavement without looking immediately in front of a car and it costs £2,000,000?

    Foolish.
    Yep. £2 million is nothing to Google and over time it would work out the optimal speed in Central London to balance the benefits and costs.

    Otherwise all that cost lands on the taxpayer as hundreds of tourists are whacked when they look the wrong way and end up in hospital. Indeed, in the City it should probably be £10 million to take account of lost earnings.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,255
    edited October 15

    https://x.com/PippaCrerar/status/1978482510628598217?s=19

    Pippa would like us to believe the deputy NSA chats to his mates about the details of a national security and court matter but not the PM, ministers or Johnny Powell

    Uh oh. Here come the “friends of.”

    Perhaps these are the same friends who told us Angela Rayner had ironcast legal advice from 3 people about her SDLT?
  • Eabhal said:

    Foss said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Someone walks off the pavement without looking immediately in front of a car and it costs £2,000,000?

    Foolish.
    Yep. £2 million is nothing to Google and over time it would work out the optimal speed in Central London to balance the benefits and costs.

    Otherwise all that cost lands on the taxpayer as hundreds of tourists are whacked when they look the wrong way and end up in hospital. Indeed, in the City it should probably be £10 million to take account of lost earnings.
    What's the baseline for how many tourists are whacked today on clear roads at 1am in a 30mph zone?

    Do you expect that number to be going up or down going forwards, if we maintain at fault reasonings and why?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,255
    Regarding this China / he said / she said stuff,

    There is surely a case to be made for giving select committees more formal subpoena power?

    I know that the US system has tremendous problems right now, but if this had blown up across the pond we’d have had days of witness evidence on this stuff by now.
  • Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:
    Good luck with that. London’s one of the worst cities for SD cars.

    Because at the moment the humans can’t understand the cacophony of signs at certain junctions.

    Councils also need to be very clear that every yellow box junction infringement and bus lane infringement and LTN infringement will accumulate exponentially increasing fines on the operators.

    Make that £100 infringement for the 10th time today, and your last fine is £51,200, to be paid within a fortnight otherwise they all double.
    Presumably these Waymos will be programme to avoid bus lanes? That's going create havoc. There are times when you have to go iinto a bus lane to avoid creating gridlock. In fact I have often thought that a work-to-rule by London drivers would reduce the capital to a standstill within hours because if every driver follows every rule inflexibly the whole system just grinds to a halt.
    Driving on the west coast is infinitely easier than in the UK, ditto LA over london

    So London is perhaps the ultimate test. All those tiny medieval streets in the City

    Perhaps that’s why Google have chosen The Smoke. It’s a top tier, busy, chaotic world city but with narrow ancient streets in places (unlike NYC)

    It’s meant to be exemplary. If they can get it to work in London it can work anywhere
    Great. I'd really like to see it work. It's going to require some give and take to make it work though. As things stand Waymo are going to face a lot of fines or there's going to be a lot of gridlock.

    I can readily see how a great many American cities are compatible with self drive, whilst London would be the ultimate test. (Well, maybe Milton Keynes beats it but who wants to go there?)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232

    Eabhal said:

    Foss said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Someone walks off the pavement without looking immediately in front of a car and it costs £2,000,000?

    Foolish.
    Yep. £2 million is nothing to Google and over time it would work out the optimal speed in Central London to balance the benefits and costs.

    Otherwise all that cost lands on the taxpayer as hundreds of tourists are whacked when they look the wrong way and end up in hospital. Indeed, in the City it should probably be £10 million to take account of lost earnings.
    What's the baseline for how many tourists are whacked today on clear roads at 1am in a 30mph zone?

    Do you expect that number to be going up or down going forwards, if we maintain at fault reasonings and why?
    Not sure. We'll find out though - I think speeds could increase significantly on some roads, particularly motorways, if the risk of a fatal collision is low.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,397
    edited October 15
    Foss said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Someone walks off the pavement without looking immediately in front of a car and it costs £2,000,000?

    Foolish.
    The car should be anticipating that someone might not be looking. A human can do this.

    I can drive down the High Street at 1am and see lots of idiots tottering about and unable to walk in a straight line. At this point I will slow right down (and check the doors are locked).

    I can drive down the same high street at 2pm and see the same number of people walking around, but in straight lines along the pavement. I may slow down a little but not as much.


    If one of the totterers falls into the road in front of me it would technically be their fault, but there would be an awful lot of paperwork. Best avoided.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,737
    edited October 15

    https://x.com/PippaCrerar/status/1978482510628598217?s=19

    Pippa would like us to believe the deputy NSA chats to his mates about the details of a national security and court matter but not the PM, ministers or Johnny Powell

    Uh oh. Here come the “friends of.”

    Perhaps these are the same friends who told us Angela Rayner had ironcast legal advice from 3 people about her SDLT?
    Its ridiculous. National security matters and shes getting the so called deets from his shaggamuffins and drinking buddies
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,845
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:
    Good luck with that. London’s one of the worst cities for SD cars.

    Because at the moment the humans can’t understand the cacophony of signs at certain junctions.

    Councils also need to be very clear that every yellow box junction infringement and bus lane infringement and LTN infringement will accumulate exponentially increasing fines on the operators.

    Make that £100 infringement for the 10th time today, and your last fine is £51,200, to be paid within a fortnight otherwise they all double.
    Presumably these Waymos will be programme to avoid bus lanes? That's going create havoc. There are times when you have to go iinto a bus lane to avoid creating gridlock. In fact I have often thought that a work-to-rule by London drivers would reduce the capital to a standstill within hours because if every driver follows every rule inflexibly the whole system just grinds to a halt.
    Driving on the west coast is infinitely easier than in the UK, ditto LA over london

    So London is perhaps the ultimate test. All those tiny medieval streets in the City

    Perhaps that’s why Google have chosen The Smoke. It’s a top tier, busy, chaotic world city but with narrow ancient streets in places (unlike NYC)

    It’s meant to be exemplary. If they can get it to work in London it can work anywhere
    Delhi?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,207
    edited October 15
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Foss said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Someone walks off the pavement without looking immediately in front of a car and it costs £2,000,000?

    Foolish.
    Yep. £2 million is nothing to Google and over time it would work out the optimal speed in Central London to balance the benefits and costs.

    Otherwise all that cost lands on the taxpayer as hundreds of tourists are whacked when they look the wrong way and end up in hospital. Indeed, in the City it should probably be £10 million to take account of lost earnings.
    What's the baseline for how many tourists are whacked today on clear roads at 1am in a 30mph zone?

    Do you expect that number to be going up or down going forwards, if we maintain at fault reasonings and why?
    Not sure. We'll find out though - I think speeds could increase significantly on some roads, particularly motorways, if the risk of a fatal collision is low.
    Only if we lift the speed limit, or they're allowed to break the law.

    If you're proposing abolishing speed limits, then I'm OK with that. Our roads are far safer today than they were in the past so we should be increasing speed limits, on motorways and in towns if not cities. 40 today is as safe or safer than 30 was decade ago, so we should be making 40 the default speed limit in developed areas instead of 30.

    If you're not proposing increasing or removing speed limits, then how exactly would speeds increase significantly?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,737
    edited October 15

    Regarding this China / he said / she said stuff,

    There is surely a case to be made for giving select committees more formal subpoena power?

    I know that the US system has tremendous problems right now, but if this had blown up across the pond we’d have had days of witness evidence on this stuff by now.

    It's very clear PMQs has no teeth and the speaker is a spineless partisan stooge so something is needed for account holding
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,579
    Eabhal said:

    Foss said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Someone walks off the pavement without looking immediately in front of a car and it costs £2,000,000?

    Foolish.
    Yep. £2 million is nothing to Google and over time it would work out the optimal speed in Central London to balance the benefits and costs.

    Otherwise all that cost lands on the taxpayer as hundreds of tourists are whacked when they look the wrong way and end up in hospital. Indeed, in the City it should probably be £10 million to take account of lost earnings.
    Trying to understand whet you are thinking here.

    So you are saying that you want something beyond obeying all the traffic laws, the Highway Code, demonstrating competence at operating a vehicle (see driving test equivalent) and having Hire & Reward insurance?
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 229
    Re waymos: surely London represents much more of a challenge than LA, with narrower streets, more cycle lanes, bus lanes, box junctions etc than wide US style roads. If they can navigate the tightness and complexity of UK roads, the future is driverless. It'll only really be when every vehicle is driverless that they can all communicate and anticipate with each other without having to second guess what a human driver is going to do next
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,062
    DoctorG said:

    Re waymos: surely London represents much more of a challenge than LA, with narrower streets, more cycle lanes, bus lanes, box junctions etc than wide US style roads. If they can navigate the tightness and complexity of UK roads, the future is driverless. It'll only really be when every vehicle is driverless that they can all communicate and anticipate with each other without having to second guess what a human driver is going to do next

    And every time someone walks in front of one of them they all have to stop together?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,562
    edited October 15
    American government 757 out of Brussels is making a u-turn south of Ireland, potentially heading to UK.

    https://x.com/flightradar24/status/1978504999748436347

    It’s flying at 10,000ft, which is indicative of a pressuration problem.

    They’ve been using a number of these 757 for diplomats and journalists over the past few days.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,091
    Now the 'genocide' is over the public executions in Gaza can begin.

    https://x.com/AbujomaaGaza/status/1977938982714392869
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,737
    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1978506049511440672?s=19

    Nothing says strength like hushing up who your number two is in case someone notices
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,949

    Eabhal said:

    Foss said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:
    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Someone walks off the pavement without looking immediately in front of a car and it costs £2,000,000?

    Foolish.
    Yep. £2 million is nothing to Google and over time it would work out the optimal speed in Central London to balance the benefits and costs.

    Otherwise all that cost lands on the taxpayer as hundreds of tourists are whacked when they look the wrong way and end up in hospital. Indeed, in the City it should probably be £10 million to take account of lost earnings.
    What's the baseline for how many tourists are whacked today on clear roads at 1am in a 30mph zone?

    Do you expect that number to be going up or down going forwards, if we maintain at fault reasonings and why?
    It depends is @malcolmg in town?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,483

    This has been Green Party policy for ages.

    There's even a separate Scottish Green party.

    A separate Welsh Green party has been an issue of debate in the party on and off over the years I believe.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,160
    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    “British economist John Ross impishly told one interviewer that if the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences were honest, the Nobel Prize in Economics would have been awarded to Chinese economists every year for the past four decades.”
    https://x.com/DoggyDog1208/status/1978222377482756419

    "If Zhu Rongji* dies without a Nobel Prize in economics, the committee should just disband..."

    “As a practitioner, Zhu Rongji understood, in ways academic Nobel laureates cannot, that there was only one economic policy that truly mattered. Zhu knew in his bones that corruption was a cancer that cannot be tolerated:

    My only hope is that after I leave public service, the Chinese people will think of me in one way: that he was a clean official, not a corrupt one. I will be immensely satisfied with that judgment alone. But if they are feeling particularly generous and say that Zhu Rongji got some real things done while in office, then I’ll thank heaven and earth.”


    *former premier at the turn of the century.

    What a peach he is:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ross_(blogger)
    Indeed, quite the charmer.
    ..he describes allegations of persecution of Uyghurs in China as “farcical” and a “total lie.”..

    The Chinese premier is a more interesting figure.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Rongji
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,562

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:
    Good luck with that. London’s one of the worst cities for SD cars.

    Because at the moment the humans can’t understand the cacophony of signs at certain junctions.

    Councils also need to be very clear that every yellow box junction infringement and bus lane infringement and LTN infringement will accumulate exponentially increasing fines on the operators.

    Make that £100 infringement for the 10th time today, and your last fine is £51,200, to be paid within a fortnight otherwise they all double.
    Presumably these Waymos will be programme to avoid bus lanes? That's going create havoc. There are times when you have to go iinto a bus lane to avoid creating gridlock. In fact I have often thought that a work-to-rule by London drivers would reduce the capital to a standstill within hours because if every driver follows every rule inflexibly the whole system just grinds to a halt.
    Driving on the west coast is infinitely easier than in the UK, ditto LA over london

    So London is perhaps the ultimate test. All those tiny medieval streets in the City

    Perhaps that’s why Google have chosen The Smoke. It’s a top tier, busy, chaotic world city but with narrow ancient streets in places (unlike NYC)

    It’s meant to be exemplary. If they can get it to work in London it can work anywhere
    Great. I'd really like to see it work. It's going to require some give and take to make it work though. As things stand Waymo are going to face a lot of fines or there's going to be a lot of gridlock.

    I can readily see how a great many American cities are compatible with self drive, whilst London would be the ultimate test. (Well, maybe Milton Keynes beats it but who wants to go there?)
    Milton Keynes would actually be a good place to test this stuff.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,232
    edited October 15

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    Presumably central London at first and expanding out over time?
    A car that only takes you from Mayfair to Primrose Hill won’t be much use to 90% of Londoners. So they must have mapped much of the city?

    Quite a vote of confidence in their own technology. If they can work in London they can work almost everywhere

    I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe. Clearly superior to driven cabs. Self drive is finally here and it works
    "I’ve now used them half a dozen times. They are totally safe."

    Unfortunate phrasing ... but in any case all still to be determined. "Over the coming months, we’ll lay the groundwork for our service in collaboration with our fleet operations partner Moove, and continue to engage with local and national leaders to secure the necessary permissions for our commercial ride-hailing service in London. "

    https://waymo.com/blog/2025/10/hello-london-your-waymo-ride-is-arriving
    So they’re already sowing the seeds for the “operators” to be local small companies, rather than the massive tech companies who are worth suing in the event of an accident.

    The regulatory issues here are a huge potential problem. “If you’re killed in accident involving car BOW123 then you can sue BOW123 Ltd for damages”.

    If the cars are run by *GOOGLE*, then you need to be able to sue the arse off Google.
    Key that a fine is an automatic condition of the contract so there is no protracted legal case between the cyclist and the mega-corp. £2 million for any fatal collision; £8 million if found at fault or similar.
    Fines should only be if at fault surely, so its £8m or £0.

    Why would someone not at fault be fined?

    We already have a car insurance system that can work out who is at fault, no need to fully reinvent the wheel.
    A car insurance system that took my partner 6 months and numerous lawyers to get a settlement from. And that was a human driver, not Google.

    The reason for "no fault" is that most of us drive more carefully around pedestrians, cyclists, drunk people because we anticipate that they could make a horrible mistake and end up dead - even if that's not our fault.

    We'd want Waymos algorithm to reflect basic human instincts. Roughly speaking a human life is worth £2 million and setting that value would see Waymos operate in a socially optimal way.

    I appreciate you don't have the same instincts but I and others certainly do.
    We can and do and they should drive more carefully around hazards, absolutely agreed there.

    Failure to be safer around hazards can lead to being at fault too.

    But if someone is safer, slows down, but something terrible happens that is demonstrably NOT the vehicles fault then liability should lie with the one that was at fault.

    Would you sue a train driver for hitting someone that jumps out in front of them? Or fine a driverless train for the same thing?
    No, but I'd want the driver to slow down while passing platforms and hit the horn for level crossings. Waymos will need some sort of disincentive to driving at 30mph down High Streets at 1am on a Saturday.
    They absolutely can and should be doing 30mph if its safe and legal to do so, just as a regular driver is. 30mph is the speed limit, they should be doing less if they need to but no need to default to less.

    They shouldn't be speeding and doing 40 in a 30.
    Yep, this proves my point. The concern is that they'll be programmed by someone like you.

    I do not want to share the road with millions of BartholomewRoberts.
    So you're trying to implement your preferences, not the law?

    If its safe and legal to do 30, there's no reason whatsoever to disincentivise doing 30.

    Especially given how quickly vehicles can slow down now, if required.

    Our roads have never been safer, no reason to be cutting our speed limit from the already low number it is at.
    Not my preferences - everyone's, in aggregate. That might be frustrating for you but you have to share.
    Who says its everyone's, in aggregate?

    In aggregate, it seems to me that almost everyone drives at the speed limit if the road is clear, as they should, if its safe and legal to do so.
    I think your idea of safe is quite different to others.

    We value a human life at £2 million. Set that as an automatic fine for a fatality and you'll find Waymo behaviour reflects the risk:reward of speed.
    Someone walks off the pavement without looking immediately in front of a car and it costs £2,000,000?

    Foolish.
    Yep. £2 million is nothing to Google and over time it would work out the optimal speed in Central London to balance the benefits and costs.

    Otherwise all that cost lands on the taxpayer as hundreds of tourists are whacked when they look the wrong way and end up in hospital. Indeed, in the City it should probably be £10 million to take account of lost earnings.
    Trying to understand whet you are thinking here.

    So you are saying that you want something beyond obeying all the traffic laws, the Highway Code, demonstrating competence at operating a vehicle (see driving test equivalent) and having Hire & Reward insurance?
    Yes. Speed limits, the Highway Code etc all reflect the negative externalities of speed and other elements of driving. But they aren't particularly well-refined - it's 20mph across the Royal Mile but you should really be doing 10mph; 100mph at midnight on the M74 is much safer.

    We all do this instinctively - if we see a child on the pavement we slow right down, even though a potential collision would not be our fault. We need Waymos to do the same.

    Self-driving cars allows us to reach something much closer to optimal speed. Other factors like injuries, noise pollution etc should also be factored in too.
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