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Labour’s little local difficulties: The Welsh edition – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,684
edited 6:43AM in General
Labour’s little local difficulties: The Welsh edition – politicalbetting.com

I am struggling to type this, Labour are on 14% (fourteen percent) in next year’s Senedd election, the most surprising thing about this polling is that it isn’t much of a surprise given how badly Starmer and his government are doing.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,973
    first
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,833
    Second! Unlike Kemi
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,973
    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,673
    edited 6:55AM
    Third like Labour?

    Edit: Fourth like the Tories
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,973
    Reform winning Wales will certainly put the cats among the pigeons with Labour then going on to bomb in Scotland in 2026.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,779
    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,569

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]
    What's the etiquette on that? Would the British police / security services be allowed to arrest you or would you be riddled with bullets by Trump's protection detail?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,997
    I saw another poll putting my (admittedly Scottish) constituency over to Reform. Oh Hell No. Need to rage against the dying of the light a bit harder.

    As for Wales, ask the question - why do Labour deserve to win? It shouldn't be a surprise to see them this low.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,152
    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,190
    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]
    What's the etiquette on that? Would the British police / security services be allowed to arrest you or would you be riddled with bullets by Trump's protection detail?
    If TSE puts a label on the bottle saying ‘Finest Moscow Prostitutes’ Piss’ he might get away with it.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,673
    By the looks of that polling the Lib Dem’s certainly aren’t catching the protest vote in the Senedd.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,779
    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,244
    edited 7:05AM
    Good morning

    I wouldn't be surprised to see labour fall further

    Alarm bells ring in Welsh labour as they attempt to distance themselves from Starmer

    Indeed with polls like this Reform could be in with a chance of most seats

    Whatever happens, Labour's years in office in Wales looks terminal

    And on Trump, Sky suggesting No 10 want him to have a special gift and a personalised 'red box' is under consideration

    They are barmy if that is indeed one of the gifts

    and watching Cooper fawning all over him on his arrival was sickening
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,167
    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]
    What's the etiquette on that? Would the British police / security services be allowed to arrest you or would you be riddled with bullets by Trump's protection detail?
    Extradition followed by terrorism charges, probably.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,822
    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    As in Zia?

    He does seem to have a problem with numbers reflecting reality rather than his wishes. Presumably that works fine when you are as rich as him.

    Talking of which, in "it's harder than it looks" news,

    Reform UK is calling for the Government to step up and increase Leicestershire special needs funding amid “spiralling” council costs.

    https://www.harboroughmail.co.uk/news/politics/reform-uk-presses-government-for-more-leicestershire-cash-amid-mission-impossible-claims-5320839
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,714
    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    Eluned isn't going. She washes her hair on Wednesdays.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly68lerg8vo
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,152
    edited 7:10AM

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,244

    I saw another poll putting my (admittedly Scottish) constituency over to Reform. Oh Hell No. Need to rage against the dying of the light a bit harder.

    As for Wales, ask the question - why do Labour deserve to win? It shouldn't be a surprise to see them this low.

    Labour in Wales time is up
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,822

    Good morning

    I wouldn't be surprised to see labour fall further

    Alarm bells ring in Welsh labour as they attempt to distance themselves from Starmer

    Indeed with polls like this Reform could be in with a chance of most seats

    Whatever happens, Labour's years in office in Wales looks terminal

    And on Trump, Sky suggesting No 10 want him to have a special gift and a personalised 'red box' is under consideration

    They are barmy if that is indeed one of the gifts

    and watching Cooper fawning all over him on his arrival was sickening

    Beggars can't be choosers. And Britain has taken all sorts of decisions over the decades that have left us as the supplicant with respect to America.

    Even under Conservative governments.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,244
    Foss said:

    By the looks of that polling the Lib Dem’s certainly aren’t catching the protest vote in the Senedd.

    Plaid and Reform have ownership of that vote
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,190
    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,263
    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,244
    edited 7:21AM
    malcolmg said:

    Reform winning Wales will certainly put the cats among the pigeons with Labour then going on to bomb in Scotland in 2026.

    Good morning @malcolmg

    And all on Friday 8th May 2026
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,946

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    As a founder member of the Royal Society for the Promotion of Syncretic Folk Religion in Psephology, I object to the term Voodoo Polling.

    Several of our members have achieved remarkable and repeatable accuracy, in polling the life challenged. The work done by our Northern Irish colleagues is especially valuable.

    The polls you refer to do not appear to have many correspondents of either state.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,946

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    As a founder member of the Royal Society for the Promotion of Syncretic Folk Religion in Psephology, I object to the term Voodoo Polling.

    Several of our members have achieved remarkable and repeatable accuracy, in polling the life challenged. The work done by our Northern Irish colleagues is especially valuable.

    The polls you refer to do not appear to have many correspondents of either state.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,822

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Of course they are. Many on the hard left seem to hate centrists even more they hate the right.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,190
    edited 7:20AM

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    At the time she bloody justified cutting the WFP by saying not doing it would tank the economy!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,946

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Nope - they have managed to alienate the non-workers as well.

    They are now the official party of Middle Managers Of The Process State.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,946
    Nigelb said:

    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]
    What's the etiquette on that? Would the British police / security services be allowed to arrest you or would you be riddled with bullets by Trump's protection detail?
    Extradition followed by terrorism charges, probably.
    All of the above

    A question though - various people have said that the extradition treaty with the US is unbalanced. Fun fact - they have sent us everyone we’ve asked for under that treaty. We have refused to send multiple people.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,946
    Nigelb said:

    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]
    What's the etiquette on that? Would the British police / security services be allowed to arrest you or would you be riddled with bullets by Trump's protection detail?
    Extradition followed by terrorism charges, probably.
    All of the above

    A question though - various people have said that the extradition treaty with the US is unbalanced. Fun fact - they have sent us everyone we’ve asked for under that treaty. We have refused to send multiple people.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,209
    malcolmg said:

    Reform winning Wales will certainly put the cats among the pigeons with Labour then going on to bomb in Scotland in 2026.

    Aren't the polls in Scotland and Wales on the same day?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,244

    malcolmg said:

    Reform winning Wales will certainly put the cats among the pigeons with Labour then going on to bomb in Scotland in 2026.

    Aren't the polls in Scotland and Wales on the same day?
    Yes
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,838

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,190

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Of course they are. Many on the hard left seem to hate centrists even more they hate the right.
    On the assumption that Liz Kendall is centrist, listening to her on R4 just now doing crap pr for Starmer & co helps me understand where they‘re coming from.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,990

    Good morning

    I wouldn't be surprised to see labour fall further

    Alarm bells ring in Welsh labour as they attempt to distance themselves from Starmer

    Indeed with polls like this Reform could be in with a chance of most seats

    Whatever happens, Labour's years in office in Wales looks terminal

    And on Trump, Sky suggesting No 10 want him to have a special gift and a personalised 'red box' is under consideration

    They are barmy if that is indeed one of the gifts

    and watching Cooper fawning all over him on his arrival was sickening

    Probably she was feeling ill too. Sometimes things just have to be done.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,970
    Eabhal said:

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
    Not just unedifying a lot of the comment even from politicians is uninformed. They just don't know how the system actually works now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,183
    edited 7:33AM
    The Welsh poll looks pretty terminal for the Tories, Lib Dems and Greens too.

    Credit to Plaid. In the rest of the country there isn't the same option for those who have fallen out with the bigger parties.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,293
    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning

    I wouldn't be surprised to see labour fall further

    Alarm bells ring in Welsh labour as they attempt to distance themselves from Starmer

    Indeed with polls like this Reform could be in with a chance of most seats

    Whatever happens, Labour's years in office in Wales looks terminal

    And on Trump, Sky suggesting No 10 want him to have a special gift and a personalised 'red box' is under consideration

    They are barmy if that is indeed one of the gifts

    and watching Cooper fawning all over him on his arrival was sickening

    Probably she was feeling ill too. Sometimes things just have to be done.
    True as uncomfortable as it is the main priority of the government is to put aside what they really think and try and make the best of a bad situation.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,318

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Of course they are. Many on the hard left seem to hate centrists even more they hate the right.
    On the assumption that Liz Kendall is centrist, listening to her on R4 just now doing crap pr for Starmer & co helps me understand where they‘re coming from.
    It was a hard listen, let’s hope her wish for a job after parliament is not in the PR sphere. Her pathetic answers about the Life Sciences problems for the UK were embarrassing and fairly glib - considering her job is Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology it didn’t fill me with any confidence that it will be prioritised and fixed.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,535
    Eabhal said:

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
    Well said. More generally it's amazing how many people even on here think UC recipients are all sitting on their thumbs. Many are in work.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,059

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Interesting that she says she doesn’t want a cabinet post. That is bad news for the government, as she would have a pulpit to stand up and critique them for every decision, ostensibly in her role as the voice of the membership. It will not help create a united front.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,897
    So on those seat projections, is anything other than a Plaid-Labour coalition even remotely workable?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,844
    edited 7:39AM

    Nigelb said:

    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]
    What's the etiquette on that? Would the British police / security services be allowed to arrest you or would you be riddled with bullets by Trump's protection detail?
    Extradition followed by terrorism charges, probably.
    All of the above

    A question though - various people have said that the extradition treaty with the US is unbalanced. Fun fact - they have sent us everyone we’ve asked for under that treaty. We have refused to send multiple people.
    That's probably because our prosecutors are much less trigger happy than theirs, rather than because the treaty is unbalanced either way.

    I don't object to the treaty because it is unbalanced myself. I object to it for three reasons, firstly because it was based on a very Blairite lie - that it was necessary for the fight against terrorism, and would only cover terrorist offences. But of course, in a classic lawyers' power grab, it turned out to cover everything. Secondly because the American criminal justice system is messed up, with ridiculous maximum penalties for trivial offences resulting in huge pressure to plea bargain, even if you're entirely innocent. And thirdly because it streamlined the process hugely, doing away with essential safeguards before people are handed over to that messed up and heavily politicised system.

    It should be scrapped, and more normal arrangements for the extradition of serious criminals put in its place.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,152

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Not sure I understand the reply. Is Baxter considered old hat as a predictor these days? How many Westminster seats do we think Starmer is on course to lose in Wales? It seems rather important to how long he might keep his job and who might take it.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,263
    Eabhal said:

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
    Those disabled workers have been hit by the effect of increased employers NI on their pay.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,535

    Eabhal said:

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
    Those disabled workers have been hit by the effect of increased employers NI on their pay.
    How? Surely they're not a specific category of worker as regards NI?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,569
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Not sure I understand the reply. Is Baxter considered old hat as a predictor these days? How many Westminster seats do we think Starmer is on course to lose in Wales? It seems rather important to how long he might keep his job and who might take it.
    Current situation is miles away from the one Baxter will haved based his model on.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,190
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Not sure I understand the reply. Is Baxter considered old hat as a predictor these days? How many Westminster seats do we think Starmer is on course to lose in Wales? It seems rather important to how long he might keep his job and who might take it.
    The projection that Yusuf posted and you mentioned was by Stats for Lefties, an outfit not normally rated by righties on PB and elsewhere.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,263
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
    Those disabled workers have been hit by the effect of increased employers NI on their pay.
    How? Surely they're not a specific category of worker as regards NI?
    Increasing employers NI causes lower pay rises and reductions in employment.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,535
    edited 7:46AM

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
    Those disabled workers have been hit by the effect of increased employers NI on their pay.
    How? Surely they're not a specific category of worker as regards NI?
    Increasing employers NI causes lower pay rises and reductions in employment.
    But that's no different from saying that red-haired workers have been affected etc. It affects all workers.

    Thanks for the clarification, anyway.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,152

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Not sure I understand the reply. Is Baxter considered old hat as a predictor these days? How many Westminster seats do we think Starmer is on course to lose in Wales? It seems rather important to how long he might keep his job and who might take it.
    The projection that Yusuf posted and you mentioned was by Stats for Lefties, an outfit not normally rated by righties on PB and elsewhere.
    There is a real organisation for Stats for Lefties! Lolz.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,070
    edited 7:51AM

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Of course they are. Many on the hard left seem to hate centrists even more they hate the right.
    On the assumption that Liz Kendall is centrist, listening to her on R4 just now doing crap pr for Starmer & co helps me understand where they‘re coming from.
    I thought she was OK. "Talent is everywhere. Opportunity is not' was a good sound bite. A green shoot of a move in the right direction.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,469
    Assume that most Welsh voters as a group make rational choices out of the only ones available, and rationally take into account these factors in voting:

    1) you vote for a party who can win both WRT your own seat and WRT the election as a whole
    2) you vote for a party which has not got a recent very bad record in government in Wales or UK
    3) you vote rather than abstain because you have to have a government
    4) you can safely ignore the issue of Welsh independence because it isn't going to happen.

    Then it follows that most voters will vote PC or Reform because no other options are available. The current polling is rational. Two parties are doing OK, and have a majority of votes between them.

    The same formula, slightly adapted, would also give a rational, though weaker, account of GB Westminster polling, where only one party is doing OK and the rest are trailing.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,312

    So on those seat projections, is anything other than a Plaid-Labour coalition even remotely workable?

    The Conservatives seem desperate to, as it were, jump into bed with Reform at every opportunity.

    It's a poor poll for labour - it's not that much better for the LDs or the Conservatives.

    The Conservatives got 25% of the Welsh vote and 16 Senedd seats at the last election. This projection shows the vote more than halving and the number of seats (despite an increased number in the Senedd) down by 5 so instead of holding a quarter of the seats as they do currently, they would hold one sixteenth.

    The Conservatives and Labour won 61% of the vote between them at the 2021 Senedd - this poll shows them at 25% yet somehow it's all about Labour.

    To be fair, two party politics is still alive and well in Wales and there are still three or four minor parties.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,258
    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Morning all.
    A straight swingometer approach to those Welsh westmister figures gives a similar result but not quite a wipeout - Labour retain Blaenau Gwent,, Cardiff North and Cardiff South/Penarth and the Tories pick up Monmouthshire from Labour, none of which seems unreasonable.
    Reform love linking to shock horror projections like excitable 2 year olds. Its definitely their first rodeo.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,263
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
    Those disabled workers have been hit by the effect of increased employers NI on their pay.
    How? Surely they're not a specific category of worker as regards NI?
    Increasing employers NI causes lower pay rises and reductions in employment.
    But that's no different from saying that red-haired workers have been affected etc. It affects all workers.

    Thanks for the clarification, anyway.
    It does affect all workers - that was the point in my original comment.

    A disabled worker will have been negatively affected by the increase in employers NI in ways that a disabled non-worker hasn't.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,152
    Dopermean said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Not sure I understand the reply. Is Baxter considered old hat as a predictor these days? How many Westminster seats do we think Starmer is on course to lose in Wales? It seems rather important to how long he might keep his job and who might take it.
    Current situation is miles away from the one Baxter will haved based his model on.
    The June yougov mrp had Labour on around 6 in Wales didn’t it? Since then the gap between Labour and Reform nationally has increased by around 2%. Wonder how low Labour have to fall to meet that claim of zero Welsh MPs
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,897
    stodge said:

    So on those seat projections, is anything other than a Plaid-Labour coalition even remotely workable?

    The Conservatives seem desperate to, as it were, jump into bed with Reform at every opportunity.

    It's a poor poll for labour - it's not that much better for the LDs or the Conservatives.

    The Conservatives got 25% of the Welsh vote and 16 Senedd seats at the last election. This projection shows the vote more than halving and the number of seats (despite an increased number in the Senedd) down by 5 so instead of holding a quarter of the seats as they do currently, they would hold one sixteenth.

    The Conservatives and Labour won 61% of the vote between them at the 2021 Senedd - this poll shows them at 25% yet somehow it's all about Labour.

    To be fair, two party politics is still alive and well in Wales and there are still three or four minor parties.
    "The Conservatives seem desperate to, as it were, jump into bed with Reform at every opportunity."

    Sorry, but that is complete bullshit. You wishing it doesn't make it a thing.

    Like wishing the LibDems will be seen as a great option for the voters. It's just that the voters don't see it...
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,190

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
    Those disabled workers have been hit by the effect of increased employers NI on their pay.
    How? Surely they're not a specific category of worker as regards NI?
    Increasing employers NI causes lower pay rises and reductions in employment.
    But that's no different from saying that red-haired workers have been affected etc. It affects all workers.

    Thanks for the clarification, anyway.
    It does affect all workers - that was the point in my original comment.

    A disabled worker will have been negatively affected by the increase in employers NI in ways that a disabled non-worker hasn't.
    Yes, but that's the same for all workers, disabled or not.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,258
    edited 8:00AM
    More in Common this week

    Ref 31 (-1)
    Lab 22 (+1)
    Con 18 (=)
    LD 14 (+1)
    Grn 8 (=)
    Oth 4 (+1)
    SNP 2 (=)
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,263

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
    Those disabled workers have been hit by the effect of increased employers NI on their pay.
    How? Surely they're not a specific category of worker as regards NI?
    Increasing employers NI causes lower pay rises and reductions in employment.
    But that's no different from saying that red-haired workers have been affected etc. It affects all workers.

    Thanks for the clarification, anyway.
    It does affect all workers - that was the point in my original comment.

    A disabled worker will have been negatively affected by the increase in employers NI in ways that a disabled non-worker hasn't.
    Yes, but that's the same for all workers, disabled or not.
    It is, which is what I said in my original comment:

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.


  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,070
    Somethig has to happen between now and the next election. If like me you are convinced that Reform will not march into government something major that no one has considered has to happen. Most likely a realignment but it's difficult to see what that might be. The Welsh election might give us the first clue.

    On the basis that every change is created by action-reaction my guess is a move to the left
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,673
    moonshine said:

    Dopermean said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Not sure I understand the reply. Is Baxter considered old hat as a predictor these days? How many Westminster seats do we think Starmer is on course to lose in Wales? It seems rather important to how long he might keep his job and who might take it.
    Current situation is miles away from the one Baxter will haved based his model on.
    The June yougov mrp had Labour on around 6 in Wales didn’t it? Since then the gap between Labour and Reform nationally has increased by around 2%. Wonder how low Labour have to fall to meet that claim of zero Welsh MPs
    There's still a bit of slack on that MRP.

    Constituency Region Projected Winner LabShare ReformShare Diff
    Blaenau Gwent & Rhymney Wales Lab 29% 24% 5%
    Cardiff East Wales Lab 27% 22% 5%
    Cardiff North Wales Lab 30% 23% 8%
    Cardiff South & Penarth Wales Lab 33% 22% 11%
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,293

    More in Common this week

    Ref 31 (-1)
    Lab 22 (+1)
    Con 18 (=)
    LD 14 (+1)
    Grn 8 (=)
    Oth 4 (+1)
    SNP 2 (=)

    The fight back begins !
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,312

    stodge said:

    So on those seat projections, is anything other than a Plaid-Labour coalition even remotely workable?

    The Conservatives seem desperate to, as it were, jump into bed with Reform at every opportunity.

    It's a poor poll for labour - it's not that much better for the LDs or the Conservatives.

    The Conservatives got 25% of the Welsh vote and 16 Senedd seats at the last election. This projection shows the vote more than halving and the number of seats (despite an increased number in the Senedd) down by 5 so instead of holding a quarter of the seats as they do currently, they would hold one sixteenth.

    The Conservatives and Labour won 61% of the vote between them at the 2021 Senedd - this poll shows them at 25% yet somehow it's all about Labour.

    To be fair, two party politics is still alive and well in Wales and there are still three or four minor parties.
    "The Conservatives seem desperate to, as it were, jump into bed with Reform at every opportunity."

    Sorry, but that is complete bullshit. You wishing it doesn't make it a thing.

    Like wishing the LibDems will be seen as a great option for the voters. It's just that the voters don't see it...
    Okay, it's early in the day so a little light joshing for a midweek.

    Seriously, for what little it's worth, I think it's very important for the Conservatives, if they are to survive this, to maintain their identity and integrity vis-a vis Reform.

    One question Kemi Badenoch (or whoever) will be asked (just as Davey will be asked from the other side) is whether and the extent to which the Conservatives would or should support a minority Reform Government after the next election? At local level, we have seen Conservative Councillors tacitly supporting the formation of minority Reform administrations by abstatining on the election of new council leaders rather than voting against a Reform nominee.

    In the Commons, it doesn't work that way. The Conservatives would have to provide Confidence & Supply to enable a Reform administration to exist even if they do this as an act of paralysis by which I mean voting down aspects of Reform legislation which they cannot support which could be counter productive if Reform force an early election and win a clear majority (this was the argument during the Coalition negotiations in 2010).

    IF the Conservatives provide that C&S to a minority Reform Government, they will (whether they like it or not) be seen as complicit in everything Reform says and does and their fortunes may well go the way of the LDs in 2015.

    The best result for the Conservatives at the next election (assuming they will be nowhere near a majority) will be a Labour minority propped up by the LDs. IF Reform fail in 2028-29, I don't know what will happen to them - they could well implode and the Conservatives could be there to pick up the pieces and form a strong opposition leading to a win in 2034.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,190
    Roger said:

    moonshine said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    Electoral Calculus latest prediction for Wales if Tory 0, Labour 4 based upon a 23% predicted vote share for Labour. So it doesn’t out the question to think if they fell even lower into the low teens in Wales then they’d get zero, surely?
    Stats for Lefties are now also Stats for Hard Righties it would seem.
    Of course they are. Many on the hard left seem to hate centrists even more they hate the right.
    On the assumption that Liz Kendall is centrist, listening to her on R4 just now doing crap pr for Starmer & co helps me understand where they‘re coming from.
    I thought she was OK. "Talent is everywhere. Opportunity is not' was a good sound bite. A green shoot of a move in the right direction.
    Kendall's strain of cenre leftism has been in charge of Labour most of my adult life, I've even voted for it on occasion. I'm no longer an audience for their sound bites but I suspect a lot of folk just see people like her mouthing silently, they no longer hear the words.
    It's obvious that centrism/Blairism no longer works for Labour, but another panicked, minute stumble to the left just fills me with an immense weariness.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,059

    More in Common this week

    Ref 31 (-1)
    Lab 22 (+1)
    Con 18 (=)
    LD 14 (+1)
    Grn 8 (=)
    Oth 4 (+1)
    SNP 2 (=)

    Not a terrible result for Labour all things considered, after the week they’ve had.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,884

    Good morning

    I wouldn't be surprised to see labour fall further

    Alarm bells ring in Welsh labour as they attempt to distance themselves from Starmer

    Indeed with polls like this Reform could be in with a chance of most seats

    Whatever happens, Labour's years in office in Wales looks terminal

    And on Trump, Sky suggesting No 10 want him to have a special gift and a personalised 'red box' is under consideration

    They are barmy if that is indeed one of the gifts

    and watching Cooper fawning all over him on his arrival was sickening

    Why is a personalised red box a barmy gift? It’s the sort of token that political leaders give to each other.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,263
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    So on those seat projections, is anything other than a Plaid-Labour coalition even remotely workable?

    The Conservatives seem desperate to, as it were, jump into bed with Reform at every opportunity.

    It's a poor poll for labour - it's not that much better for the LDs or the Conservatives.

    The Conservatives got 25% of the Welsh vote and 16 Senedd seats at the last election. This projection shows the vote more than halving and the number of seats (despite an increased number in the Senedd) down by 5 so instead of holding a quarter of the seats as they do currently, they would hold one sixteenth.

    The Conservatives and Labour won 61% of the vote between them at the 2021 Senedd - this poll shows them at 25% yet somehow it's all about Labour.

    To be fair, two party politics is still alive and well in Wales and there are still three or four minor parties.
    "The Conservatives seem desperate to, as it were, jump into bed with Reform at every opportunity."

    Sorry, but that is complete bullshit. You wishing it doesn't make it a thing.

    Like wishing the LibDems will be seen as a great option for the voters. It's just that the voters don't see it...
    Okay, it's early in the day so a little light joshing for a midweek.

    Seriously, for what little it's worth, I think it's very important for the Conservatives, if they are to survive this, to maintain their identity and integrity vis-a vis Reform.

    One question Kemi Badenoch (or whoever) will be asked (just as Davey will be asked from the other side) is whether and the extent to which the Conservatives would or should support a minority Reform Government after the next election? At local level, we have seen Conservative Councillors tacitly supporting the formation of minority Reform administrations by abstatining on the election of new council leaders rather than voting against a Reform nominee.

    In the Commons, it doesn't work that way. The Conservatives would have to provide Confidence & Supply to enable a Reform administration to exist even if they do this as an act of paralysis by which I mean voting down aspects of Reform legislation which they cannot support which could be counter productive if Reform force an early election and win a clear majority (this was the argument during the Coalition negotiations in 2010).

    IF the Conservatives provide that C&S to a minority Reform Government, they will (whether they like it or not) be seen as complicit in everything Reform says and does and their fortunes may well go the way of the LDs in 2015.

    The best result for the Conservatives at the next election (assuming they will be nowhere near a majority) will be a Labour minority propped up by the LDs. IF Reform fail in 2028-29, I don't know what will happen to them - they could well implode and the Conservatives could be there to pick up the pieces and form a strong opposition leading to a win in 2034.
    Reform are very dependent on Farage to hold the party together.

    Without Farage, and he cannot go on forever, what becomes of Reform ?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,845
    Good morning everyone.

    JLR: (Long quote as paywall)

    I'm not sure how this plays in to their production pause to go electric, which if it is in place and continuing may mitigate.

    Jaguar Land Rover’s output could take several months to normalise, fear suppliers

    JLR on Tuesday said it would extend its production halt until at least next Wednesday as it continued its investigation. In a statement, the company also cautioned that “the controlled restart of our global operations . . . will take time”.
    If JLR cannot produce vehicles until November, David Bailey, professor at University of Birmingham, estimated that the group would suffer a revenue hit of more than £3.5bn while it would lose about £250mn in profits, or about £72mn in revenue and £5mn in profits on a daily basis.
    With annual revenues of £29bn in 2024, JLR will be able to absorb the financial costs but Bailey warned the consequences would be bigger for the smaller sized companies in its supply chain. JLR declined to comment.
    The cyber attack comes at a crucial period for the UK carmaker when it is going through a controversial rebranding of its Jaguar brand and an expensive shift to all-electric vehicles by the end of the decade. Even before the latest incident, people briefed on the matter have said the company was facing delays with launching its new electric models.
    “They are clearly in chaos,” said one industry executive who works closely with JLR, while another warned that “no one actually knows” when production would resume.

    https://www.ft.com/content/c67be2f2-4dcf-4656-888c-8711789cd9ae#selection-2255.0-2275.165
  • dunhamdunham Posts: 26

    So on those seat projections, is anything other than a Plaid-Labour coalition even remotely workable?

    The seat projections are based on the exact percentages in the poll. Even a slight change in these percentages could lead to significant changes in seat projections due to the nature of the proportional list system to be used in these elections for the first time.

    PC will be hampered by the reluctance of monoglot English speakers to support a party so closely associated with the promotion of the Welsh language and those who can speak it, and by the likelihood that a PC plurality in seats won't remove Labour from being part of any ruling coalition, or being involved in supporting a minority PC administration.

    My expectation is that there will be a further slight shift to Reform, who will win most seats in May 2026 and form a minority administration with Tory support for key votes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,277
    Labour would still be in power though in Wales as Plaid could not form a government without their support. As that poll shows the only way to keep Labour out of power is to vote Reform or Tory
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,258
    edited 8:17AM
    With respect to seat projectors its worth remembering that even in the GE campaIgn itself at the height of certainty to vote and minds made up we had MRPs showing Tories third, Labour over 500 seats etc etc, within a few days of polling.
    Projections give a flavour - currently a Reform win, massive Labour losses, Tories into double figures and possibly behind Lib Dems.
    Seat projections for the Senedd are particularly difficult, the new system means local get ouf the vote efforts will make a difference. If 'my party' is on 10% in a pair of seats then getting 500 extra to turn out might get that 6th seat in the paired constituency. The Tory 11% could realistically net them anything from 4 to 12 seats, Labours 14%, 8 to 16 LDs on 6% could get zero to 3, ditto Greens. All about strength in any paired seat.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,819

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Interesting that she says she doesn’t want a cabinet post. That is bad news for the government, as she would have a pulpit to stand up and critique them for every decision, ostensibly in her role as the voice of the membership. It will not help create a united front.
    It might be bad news but not having the deputy leader in the Cabinet is probably what top political operator Keir Starmer wants. Remember he tried to drop Angela Rayner.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,535

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Labour deputy leadership contender Lucy Powell, who was fired by Sir Keir Starmer in his cabinet reshuffle, has criticised "unforced errors" by the government over welfare.

    In her first broadcast interview since being sacked, she told the BBC's Nick Robinson attempts to cut disability benefits and winter fuel payments had left voters questioning "whose side we are on".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6gevkn7zo

    Well I have no doubt which side Labour are on.

    Labour are on the side of non-workers and against workers.

    Plenty of disabled folk work. Some of my most effective colleagues are in wheelchairs or have significant mental health issues.

    (I'm not disputing your sentiment but some of the chat around disabled claimants has been a bit unedifying, particularly as the criteria and adjustments for disability benefits are quite different to standard UC etc).
    Those disabled workers have been hit by the effect of increased employers NI on their pay.
    How? Surely they're not a specific category of worker as regards NI?
    Increasing employers NI causes lower pay rises and reductions in employment.
    But that's no different from saying that red-haired workers have been affected etc. It affects all workers.

    Thanks for the clarification, anyway.
    It does affect all workers - that was the point in my original comment.

    A disabled worker will have been negatively affected by the increase in employers NI in ways that a disabled non-worker hasn't.
    Surely that cannot be the case. The special funds for adaptations to thr workplace are the same either way - they're not mediated by NI.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,897

    More in Common this week

    Ref 31 (-1)
    Lab 22 (+1)
    Con 18 (=)
    LD 14 (+1)
    Grn 8 (=)
    Oth 4 (+1)
    SNP 2 (=)

    Not a terrible result for Labour all things considered, after the week they’ve had.
    There's virtually no movement now.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,925

    Good morning

    I wouldn't be surprised to see labour fall further

    Alarm bells ring in Welsh labour as they attempt to distance themselves from Starmer

    Indeed with polls like this Reform could be in with a chance of most seats

    Whatever happens, Labour's years in office in Wales looks terminal

    And on Trump, Sky suggesting No 10 want him to have a special gift and a personalised 'red box' is under consideration

    They are barmy if that is indeed one of the gifts

    and watching Cooper fawning all over him on his arrival was sickening

    Why is a personalised red box a barmy gift? It’s the sort of token that political leaders give to each other.
    That’s a really cool idea, something very British.

    Make sure it’s demonstrated properly though, would be rather embarrassing if it opened up on him!

    (For those who don’t know, they are hinged at the top to make doubly sure the minister has locked it before picking it up!)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,819
    Hundreds of firms warn new guidance on single sex spaces is ‘unworkable’ and would cause ‘significant economic harm’
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/supreme-court-trans-single-sex-spaces-b2826924.html
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,662
    Labour are traitors to the working class. Welsh voters have finally understood that. English voters have realised since Starmer destroyed them with his incompetence. Scots voters realised it in 2007, but forgot last year. They have remembered again. Labour are finished, thankfully.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,312
    Roger said:

    Somethig has to happen between now and the next election. If like me you are convinced that Reform will not march into government something major that no one has considered has to happen. Most likely a realignment but it's difficult to see what that might be. The Welsh election might give us the first clue.

    On the basis that every change is created by action-reaction my guess is a move to the left

    In the 1980s, poll after poll suggested the Alliance would sweep to power with the south and south west turning orange. Don't quite remember that happening.

    In a multi party system under FPTP UNS means next to nothing - I've seen polls showing Reform will win East Ham - they won't. The central question is whether Labour in power (and they are the only ones who can do this) can do anything to mitigate the genuine and (often but not always) justified anger out there across a range of issues.

    Starmer will win if and only if he can convince enough people the country is back on the right track and the future will be better and brighter than the present. It's the overwhelming sense things aren''t going to get better (sorry) which is powering Reform (not that they have a single coherent answer as their councillors blundering around in the counties so aptly demonstrate).

    He won't win by simply saying things will be worse under Farage - they will but too many people aren't convinced. Farage and his acolytes will convince a number between now and the next election but between the anger and the fragmented opposition (who are often too busy fighting the old battles with each other), Reform could well sweep in.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,469

    More in Common this week

    Ref 31 (-1)
    Lab 22 (+1)
    Con 18 (=)
    LD 14 (+1)
    Grn 8 (=)
    Oth 4 (+1)
    SNP 2 (=)

    Not a terrible result for Labour all things considered, after the week they’ve had.
    I have no idea how this converts into Westminster seats, but Baxter has it as Labour ending with 121, losing 291. I think that is fairly terrible, especially as the 22% who are opting for Labour give no appearance of doing so with any great belief or enthusiasm. Coming up: conference, Powell winning the DL, budget, winter, speculation, elections in May. Little cheer upcoming I suspect. And as Labour is the only electable party that isn't actually insane, there isn't much cheer for the rest of us either.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,258

    More in Common this week

    Ref 31 (-1)
    Lab 22 (+1)
    Con 18 (=)
    LD 14 (+1)
    Grn 8 (=)
    Oth 4 (+1)
    SNP 2 (=)

    Not a terrible result for Labour all things considered, after the week they’ve had.
    There's virtually no movement now.
    Theres not enough movement. Polling is unusually static and has been for months.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,059

    More in Common this week

    Ref 31 (-1)
    Lab 22 (+1)
    Con 18 (=)
    LD 14 (+1)
    Grn 8 (=)
    Oth 4 (+1)
    SNP 2 (=)

    Not a terrible result for Labour all things considered, after the week they’ve had.
    There's virtually no movement now.
    Yes. It feels fixed.

    Conference bounces don’t really tend to be a thing anymore IIRC, so I suspect the next major political check-in for most people will be the budget now.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,897
    dunham said:

    So on those seat projections, is anything other than a Plaid-Labour coalition even remotely workable?

    The seat projections are based on the exact percentages in the poll. Even a slight change in these percentages could lead to significant changes in seat projections due to the nature of the proportional list system to be used in these elections for the first time.

    PC will be hampered by the reluctance of monoglot English speakers to support a party so closely associated with the promotion of the Welsh language and those who can speak it, and by the likelihood that a PC plurality in seats won't remove Labour from being part of any ruling coalition, or being involved in supporting a minority PC administration.

    My expectation is that there will be a further slight shift to Reform, who will win most seats in May 2026 and form a minority administration with Tory support for key votes.
    It will have to be a material increase for Reform. Otherwise, even with Conservative support (far from a given), everything gets voted down.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,277
    edited 8:27AM
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    So on those seat projections, is anything other than a Plaid-Labour coalition even remotely workable?

    The Conservatives seem desperate to, as it were, jump into bed with Reform at every opportunity.

    It's a poor poll for labour - it's not that much better for the LDs or the Conservatives.

    The Conservatives got 25% of the Welsh vote and 16 Senedd seats at the last election. This projection shows the vote more than halving and the number of seats (despite an increased number in the Senedd) down by 5 so instead of holding a quarter of the seats as they do currently, they would hold one sixteenth.

    The Conservatives and Labour won 61% of the vote between them at the 2021 Senedd - this poll shows them at 25% yet somehow it's all about Labour.

    To be fair, two party politics is still alive and well in Wales and there are still three or four minor parties.
    "The Conservatives seem desperate to, as it were, jump into bed with Reform at every opportunity."

    Sorry, but that is complete bullshit. You wishing it doesn't make it a thing.

    Like wishing the LibDems will be seen as a great option for the voters. It's just that the voters don't see it...
    Okay, it's early in the day so a little light joshing for a midweek.

    Seriously, for what little it's worth, I think it's very important for the Conservatives, if they are to survive this, to maintain their identity and integrity vis-a vis Reform.

    One question Kemi Badenoch (or whoever) will be asked (just as Davey will be asked from the other side) is whether and the extent to which the Conservatives would or should support a minority Reform Government after the next election? At local level, we have seen Conservative Councillors tacitly supporting the formation of minority Reform administrations by abstatining on the election of new council leaders rather than voting against a Reform nominee.

    In the Commons, it doesn't work that way. The Conservatives would have to provide Confidence & Supply to enable a Reform administration to exist even if they do this as an act of paralysis by which I mean voting down aspects of Reform legislation which they cannot support which could be counter productive if Reform force an early election and win a clear majority (this was the argument during the Coalition negotiations in 2010).

    IF the Conservatives provide that C&S to a minority Reform Government, they will (whether they like it or not) be seen as complicit in everything Reform says and does and their fortunes may well go the way of the LDs in 2015.

    The best result for the Conservatives at the next election (assuming they will be nowhere near a majority) will be a Labour minority propped up by the LDs. IF Reform fail in 2028-29, I don't know what will happen to them - they could well implode and the Conservatives could be there to pick up the pieces and form a strong opposition leading to a win in 2034.
    Jenrick's dream scenario is
    Cleverly replaces Badenoch as
    Tory leader next year. Then
    Labour win most seats at the
    next general election but
    they lose their majority and
    have to be propped up by the
    LDs and ideally the SNP, Plaid, Greens and Your Party too.

    Cleverly and Farage then resign as party leaders after the Conservative and Reform defeats. Leaving Jenrick to take over as Conservative leader to reunite the right with opposition effectively to himself
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,884

    Foss said:

    By the looks of that polling the Lib Dem’s certainly aren’t catching the protest vote in the Senedd.

    Plaid and Reform have ownership of that vote
    Temporary custody, not ownership
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,925

    Hundreds of firms warn new guidance on single sex spaces is ‘unworkable’ and would cause ‘significant economic harm’
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/supreme-court-trans-single-sex-spaces-b2826924.html

    Alternatively the same rules worked well until very recently, and companies - especially those which face the public - don’t want to be targeted by groups of obnoxious activists.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,365
    I don't follow LD world very closely and I'm wondering about Daisy Cooper. In the Next Leader market she is (and has been for a while) a very cramped odds on shot with no-one else in the betting really. I reckon I could get matched for a lay at 1.4. Is that worth doing, do we think? Or is she pretty much nailed on to get the job when Ed Davey goes?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,884

    moonshine said:

    Yusuf has posted a Westminster seat projection from this poll with both Tory and Labour on zero. Really??

    He's talking shite.

    They have a tendency of pulling this kind of bullshit.

    They've even used voodoo polls.
    As a founder member of the Royal Society for the Promotion of Syncretic Folk Religion in Psephology, I object to the term Voodoo Polling.

    Several of our members have achieved remarkable and repeatable accuracy, in polling the life challenged. The work done by our Northern Irish colleagues is especially valuable.

    The polls you refer to do not appear to have many correspondents of either state.
    As Chair of the New Society for the Promotion of Syncretic Folk Religion in Psephology I find that comment objectionable.

    Our members are not challenged in any way.

    They merely have a different lived experience to others
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,190
    Sandpit said:

    Hundreds of firms warn new guidance on single sex spaces is ‘unworkable’ and would cause ‘significant economic harm’
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/supreme-court-trans-single-sex-spaces-b2826924.html

    Alternatively the same rules worked well until very recently, and companies - especially those which face the public - don’t want to be targeted by groups of obnoxious activists.
    Otoh, who wants Linehan and pusher of bacon through letterboxes Nurse Sandy turning up on their doorstep.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,845
    edited 8:30AM

    Hundreds of firms warn new guidance on single sex spaces is ‘unworkable’ and would cause ‘significant economic harm’
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/supreme-court-trans-single-sex-spaces-b2826924.html

    There is some strange wording:

    It comes after sources told The Times that the final guidance will tell schools, hospitals, leisure centres and cinemas to ban trans women from using single-sex spaces such as lavatories and changing rooms.

    How does "Guidance" ban anything? It is Guidance, not Regulations. *

    For a comparison, all of the best practice for Inclusive Mobility (eg drop kerbs, tactile paving, barriers on footpaths), and path and mobility track specification (eg width, gradient, surface, even I think the height of a drop kerb to be <6mm and bus stop bypasses) is in "Guidance" - that is "Inclusive Mobility" and LTN 1/20.

    What that means in practice is that Local Highways Authorities can ignore it at will, as many do unless there is a vociferous local lobby. That is why Outer London is full of crap floating bus stops (at least they have crap ones) - because the Boroughs did not HAVE to do it properly, so they shaved the design process and spec to save money.

    Where's the bite?

    * I suspect this may be because one set of Courts take Guidance seriously, whilst Local Authorities rely on being practically impossible meaningfully to enforce against.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,662
    HYUFD said:

    Labour would still be in power though in Wales as Plaid could not form a government without their support. As that poll shows the only way to keep Labour out of power is to vote Reform or Tory

    The other way to keep Labour out of power is for Welsh voters not to vote for them so that they don’t win any seats.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,845
    Sandpit said:

    Good morning

    I wouldn't be surprised to see labour fall further

    Alarm bells ring in Welsh labour as they attempt to distance themselves from Starmer

    Indeed with polls like this Reform could be in with a chance of most seats

    Whatever happens, Labour's years in office in Wales looks terminal

    And on Trump, Sky suggesting No 10 want him to have a special gift and a personalised 'red box' is under consideration

    They are barmy if that is indeed one of the gifts

    and watching Cooper fawning all over him on his arrival was sickening

    Why is a personalised red box a barmy gift? It’s the sort of token that political leaders give to each other.
    That’s a really cool idea, something very British.

    Make sure it’s demonstrated properly though, would be rather embarrassing if it opened up on him!

    (For those who don’t know, they are hinged at the top to make doubly sure the minister has locked it before picking it up!)
    Give the bugger a robotic rubber glove so he can fluff himself.

    Did I say the quiet bit out loud? Oooops :wink: .
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,819
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    JLR: (Long quote as paywall)

    I'm not sure how this plays in to their production pause to go electric, which if it is in place and continuing may mitigate.

    Jaguar Land Rover’s output could take several months to normalise, fear suppliers

    JLR on Tuesday said it would extend its production halt until at least next Wednesday as it continued its investigation. In a statement, the company also cautioned that “the controlled restart of our global operations . . . will take time”.
    If JLR cannot produce vehicles until November, David Bailey, professor at University of Birmingham, estimated that the group would suffer a revenue hit of more than £3.5bn while it would lose about £250mn in profits, or about £72mn in revenue and £5mn in profits on a daily basis.
    With annual revenues of £29bn in 2024, JLR will be able to absorb the financial costs but Bailey warned the consequences would be bigger for the smaller sized companies in its supply chain. JLR declined to comment.
    The cyber attack comes at a crucial period for the UK carmaker when it is going through a controversial rebranding of its Jaguar brand and an expensive shift to all-electric vehicles by the end of the decade. Even before the latest incident, people briefed on the matter have said the company was facing delays with launching its new electric models.
    “They are clearly in chaos,” said one industry executive who works closely with JLR, while another warned that “no one actually knows” when production would resume.

    https://www.ft.com/content/c67be2f2-4dcf-4656-888c-8711789cd9ae#selection-2255.0-2275.165

    JLR's supply chain might collapse completely. Already there have been reports of thousands of layoffs. The government needs to pull its finger out on mitigation and support (it makes one nostalgic for Covid) but also to do more to prevent these incidents in the first place. Is the NCSC (National Cyber Security Centre) fit for purpose?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,667
    edited 8:39AM
    kinabalu said:

    I don't follow LD world very closely and I'm wondering about Daisy Cooper. In the Next Leader market she is (and has been for a while) a very cramped odds on shot with no-one else in the betting really. I reckon I could get matched for a lay at 1.4. Is that worth doing, do we think? Or is she pretty much nailed on to get the job when Ed Davey goes?

    I don't have a vote nowadays (not since the early 2010s) but Cooper leaves me cold. I find it hard to believe that there isn't a stronger candidate among the LD MPs if Davey goes before the next GE. She is quite popular in the party, I believe, but at 1.4 I'd lay too. Anything under 2 looks short to me when there's not even a contest yet, too much to happen. I haven't bet though, partly for the same reason - not sure how long I'd be tying money up for.

    Should note that I'm not at all active in the party - I know some people who are and they're fairly split on Cooper. There are plenty of unbelievers, but probably around half are fans. For me, she's Swinson mk2 - the heir apparent for reasons that are not immediately obvious to me. Swinson, of course, did get the gig.

    Should also note that I don't know who I would choose at present.

    ETA: If it was soon she'd be in a good position. Longer there's more time for others to emerge, I think. but even if soon if someone good decides to go for it then I think Cooper can be outshone. The Cameron to her Davis.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,997

    Good morning

    I wouldn't be surprised to see labour fall further

    Alarm bells ring in Welsh labour as they attempt to distance themselves from Starmer

    Indeed with polls like this Reform could be in with a chance of most seats

    Whatever happens, Labour's years in office in Wales looks terminal

    And on Trump, Sky suggesting No 10 want him to have a special gift and a personalised 'red box' is under consideration

    They are barmy if that is indeed one of the gifts

    and watching Cooper fawning all over him on his arrival was sickening

    My friend, they cannot fall further from the ZERO seats now forecast.

    Zero seats. Glorious fun!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,884

    Nigelb said:

    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    Quiet day here , is everyone off to see if they can see and genuflect to the Orange One in person.

    When else will I get a better opportunity to lob a bottle of piss at him?

    [Yes, I accept I will never visit America again.]
    What's the etiquette on that? Would the British police / security services be allowed to arrest you or would you be riddled with bullets by Trump's protection detail?
    Extradition followed by terrorism charges, probably.
    All of the above

    A question though - various people have said that the extradition treaty with the US is unbalanced. Fun fact - they have sent us everyone we’ve asked for under that treaty. We have refused to send multiple people.
    Except the fugitive from justice who killed a teenager on his motorbike…
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,124
    edited 8:39AM
    kinabalu said:

    I don't follow LD world very closely and I'm wondering about Daisy Cooper. In the Next Leader market she is (and has been for a while) a very cramped odds on shot with no-one else in the betting really. I reckon I could get matched for a lay at 1.4. Is that worth doing, do we think? Or is she pretty much nailed on to get the job when Ed Davey goes?

    I’d say she’s odds-on for a reason. There’s not an obvious alternative, she is generally popular in the party and hasn’t pissed many people off, and she very clearly has the ambition for the top job. Almost a Brown in the later Blair years situation.

    ETA I do think it’s worth looking at a Davey exit fairly soon. A “voluntary” stepping down after a bit of behind the scenes pressure.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,535
    MattW said:

    Hundreds of firms warn new guidance on single sex spaces is ‘unworkable’ and would cause ‘significant economic harm’
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/supreme-court-trans-single-sex-spaces-b2826924.html

    There is some strange wording:

    It comes after sources told The Times that the final guidance will tell schools, hospitals, leisure centres and cinemas to ban trans women from using single-sex spaces such as lavatories and changing rooms.

    How does "Guidance" ban anything? It is Guidance, not Regulations. *

    [snip]
    * I suspect this may be because one set of Courts take Guidance seriously, whilst Local Authorities rely on being practically impossible meaningfully to enforce against.
    Re the khazis, it seems that employers (and also national and local governments too, I believe) simply want something clear they can

    (a) understand without paying lawyers and
    (b) point to and blame when the activists from one or both sides come along, as well as the workplace unions if there is any workplace discontent about any aspect of the arrangement (which need not be specific to trans people as such, at all: eg a lot of women do not like having to use unisex toilets because of male pish splatters etc).

    It is fairly strong protection in any ensuing arguments.

    But also they want something reasonably practical and economic (much the same thing).
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