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A damning indictment on our politicians – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,671
edited 2:35PM in General
A damning indictment on our politicians – politicalbetting.com

67% of Britons see politicians as primarily out for themselvesOut for themselves: 67%Out for their party: 19%Out for their country: 4%yougov.co.uk/politics/art…

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  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,914
    I thought the thread would just have a snap of Mandelson given the title. And first!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316
    Cookie said:

    I'm one of the 4%. I've met several MPs. I think the public far too cynical in this respect.

    Absolutely. It's people thinking cynicism makes them wise. Social media fuels this.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,728
    I went up to Scotland last week (I might have mentioned it). I hate trains but I like the idea of a posh train to somewhere nice. That leaves me the Night Riviera sleeper train to Penzance, the Caledonian Sleeper to Inverness, or the Eurostar to Lille. Not big places, smallish nice towns with nice places where I can sit down and read books, reasonably luxurious and historic with nice buildings. Anybody been to Penzance, Inverness or Lille?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656
    Cookie said:

    I'm one of the 4%. I've met several MPs. I think the public far too cynical in this respect.

    I'm in the 4%.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,666
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm one of the 4%. I've met several MPs. I think the public far too cynical in this respect.

    Absolutely. It's people thinking cynicism makes them wise. Social media fuels this.
    The politicians in "I fought the law' on the TV were treated quite kindly, especially the heroine's MP.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656
    edited 2:56PM
    Omnium said:

    I thought the thread would just have a snap of Mandelson given the title. And first!

    Full disclosure, I once went to an event hosted by Lord Mandelson.

    To my eternal shame I never asked him if there were any mushy peas available.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,728

    kinabalu said:

    So Putin has concluded (correctly) that he's faced with the weakest most naive and clueless American president in history and is acting accordingly. Dangerous times.

    On the other hand, it may be just as well.

    A different President might have had us halfway to Leningrad by now.
    Unless that was a rather clever Escape From New York reference, it's called "Saint Petersburg" now
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,123
    Speaking of Liz Truss, is this or is this not batshit crazy? https://x.com/trussliz/status/1965023319540801908

    The USA is arguably today the most unadulterated iteration of ancient British liberties that would still be recognized by our Saxon forefathers… To me, it is the ideas and the culture and the people that embody the Special Relationship between our two countries.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,947
    viewcode said:

    I went up to Scotland last week (I might have mentioned it). I hate trains but I like the idea of a posh train to somewhere nice. That leaves me the Night Riviera sleeper train to Penzance, the Caledonian Sleeper to Inverness, or the Eurostar to Lille. Not big places, smallish nice towns with nice places where I can sit down and read books, reasonably luxurious and historic with nice buildings. Anybody been to Penzance, Inverness or Lille?

    Ive been to both Fort William and Inverness on the Cally Sleeper
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,959
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm one of the 4%. I've met several MPs. I think the public far too cynical in this respect.

    Absolutely. It's people thinking cynicism makes them wise. Social media fuels this.
    Look on the bright side. It gives you a chance to sneer at them.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,914

    Speaking of Liz Truss, is this or is this not batshit crazy? https://x.com/trussliz/status/1965023319540801908

    The USA is arguably today the most unadulterated iteration of ancient British liberties that would still be recognized by our Saxon forefathers… To me, it is the ideas and the culture and the people that embody the Special Relationship between our two countries.

    Batshit moneyraising.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,846
    FPT:
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
    MAGA have seized on the random killing of a white girl by a black man and saying it's reverse racism that it's not been given as much attention as various recent killings of black people. The man charged with her killing had a long criminal record, so they are also saying this is a case of Democrats failing to keep bad people locked up. The Spectator is calling it two-tier justice. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/08/trump-blames-democrats-murder-ukrainian-refugee-00551419 has more. Also see https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/10/us/national-debate-crime-charlotte-stabbing

    It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
    George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died

    This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges

    Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there

    She will now become a white George Floyd
    Floyd triggered a movement to highlight racial injustice in America. What is this movement (if it takes off) seeking to highlight? That black men are allowed to murder white women or something?
    The extraordinary disparities in violent crime, by race
    It’s more than that, it’s the attitude of the justice ‘system’ in large cities that shows more compassion for the perpetrator than the victim of crime, and it’s leading to an increasingly lawless country where people just going about their business suddenly end up dead for no reason at all.

    That and the video. Don’t watch the video.
    We have an example right here on this thread

    A commenter goes straight to “let’s feel sorry for young black men” without even mentioning the victim
    As did the Mayor of Charlotte.

    It’s also the entire US “mainstream” media.

    The NY Times ran this headline yesterday, their first mention of the case.



    It’s almost as if they prefer to be on the side of the murderer over a totally innocent victim, rather than admit Trump is right about violent crime in American cities.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,990
    edited 2:47PM
    viewcode said:

    I went up to Scotland last week (I might have mentioned it). I hate trains but I like the idea of a posh train to somewhere nice. That leaves me the Night Riviera sleeper train to Penzance, the Caledonian Sleeper to Inverness, or the Eurostar to Lille. Not big places, smallish nice towns with nice places where I can sit down and read books, reasonably luxurious and historic with nice buildings. Anybody been to Penzance, Inverness or Lille?

    I’ve been to all of them. They’re all great in different ways, and with flaws

    Penzance: real end of the line feeling. You are definitely at a terminus and it’s at the very end of Cornwall. The station is by the sea. You exit to ozone and gulls and fish and chips and saltiness. And you are surrounded by Wild West Cornwall

    But Penzance is a bit run down. Druggies and shuttered shops

    Inverness is quite a handsome town. Granite everywhere. It’s not as dramatic as Penzance but you’re definitely on the door of the highlands and the wilds. The train over to Kyle is spectacular

    Can also be rundown. And cold

    Lille is probably the most architecturally appealing in itself. Nice French Flemish feel. But much more boring in location and nothing to see - unless you like world war 1 battlefields, in which case it’s fab
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,123
    What's the inflection point in the graph? Is that Brexit or the chaotic period after Brexit?

    Like others here, I think most politicians sincerely are trying to make the world a better place.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,989
    Omnium said:

    I thought the thread would just have a snap of Mandelson given the title. And first!

    I posted this at the end of the last thread and on topic I am in the 4%:

    Good afternoon

    On Mandelson it is simply unacceptable for him to continue as our Ambassador to the US

    The revelations this week of Trump, Mandelson, Clinton and others 50th birthday cards to Epstein, with the accompanying text, shames our Nation and that someone as close to Epstein should even be considered to represent us in America

    Trump should also fall on his 'disgusting' revelations but, sadly, we cannot do anything about him, but Mandelson is our problem, and we can.

    Labour mps should tell Starmer he has to demand his resignation irrespective of how it may compromise Starmer

    Every Minister appearing in the media is simply going to be overwhelmed by questions about Mandelson's future

    Furthermore, how can he be present at Trumps 'state' visit in the light of these revelations

    Indeed, if he had any decency he would simply resign now
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316
    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    I'm one of the 4%. I've met several MPs. I think the public far too cynical in this respect.

    Absolutely. It's people thinking cynicism makes them wise. Social media fuels this.
    Look on the bright side. It gives you a chance to sneer at them.
    Yes there is that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,846
    viewcode said:

    I went up to Scotland last week (I might have mentioned it). I hate trains but I like the idea of a posh train to somewhere nice. That leaves me the Night Riviera sleeper train to Penzance, the Caledonian Sleeper to Inverness, or the Eurostar to Lille. Not big places, smallish nice towns with nice places where I can sit down and read books, reasonably luxurious and historic with nice buildings. Anybody been to Penzance, Inverness or Lille?

    I was in Inverness the other week, lovely place. I tried to book the Caledonian Sleeper but it appears that the rare double cabins are already sold out until about November. If you do get there, take the scenic route back towards Fort William and onto Glasgow, some absolutely wonderful scenery.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,857
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,123
    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
    MAGA have seized on the random killing of a white girl by a black man and saying it's reverse racism that it's not been given as much attention as various recent killings of black people. The man charged with her killing had a long criminal record, so they are also saying this is a case of Democrats failing to keep bad people locked up. The Spectator is calling it two-tier justice. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/08/trump-blames-democrats-murder-ukrainian-refugee-00551419 has more. Also see https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/10/us/national-debate-crime-charlotte-stabbing

    It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
    George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died

    This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges

    Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there

    She will now become a white George Floyd
    Floyd triggered a movement to highlight racial injustice in America. What is this movement (if it takes off) seeking to highlight? That black men are allowed to murder white women or something?
    The extraordinary disparities in violent crime, by race
    It’s more than that, it’s the attitude of the justice ‘system’ in large cities that shows more compassion for the perpetrator than the victim of crime, and it’s leading to an increasingly lawless country where people just going about their business suddenly end up dead for no reason at all.

    That and the video. Don’t watch the video.
    We have an example right here on this thread

    A commenter goes straight to “let’s feel sorry for young black men” without even mentioning the victim
    As did the Mayor of Charlotte.

    It’s also the entire US “mainstream” media.

    The NY Times ran this headline yesterday, their first mention of the case.



    It’s almost as if they prefer to be on the side of the murderer over a totally innocent victim, rather than admit Trump is right about violent crime in American cities.
    They ran that headline because the online MAGA types were ramping this case so quickly.

    Is Trump right about violent crime in American cities? No. This was published in July: Through the first two quarters of the year [2025], overall crime has decreased 8% compared to this same time last year. Charlotte experienced a 25% reduction in violent crime, which includes homicides, rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults, encompassing shootings. Property crime, which includes residential and commercial burglary, auto theft and larceny, is down 5%. Crime is on the decrease in the places that Trump picks on. Crime is also generally lower in those places than in places with Republicans in charge that Trump doesn't mention. Trump is a convicted felon, who has pardoned violent criminals and is protecting the incarcerated sex offender girlfriend of his former friend Epstein. Trump doesn't care about the many Ukrainians his friend Putin kills every day, but he's going to pick on this case because it fits his narrative.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,846

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400

    If the story that Mandelson’s relationship with Epstein lasted beyond his original 2008 conviction holds up, then his position is untenable.

    Trump himself had dropped Epstein well before that, supposedly after his behaviour towards Mar-a-Lago staff became a matter of concern.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,666
    viewcode said:

    I went up to Scotland last week (I might have mentioned it). I hate trains but I like the idea of a posh train to somewhere nice. That leaves me the Night Riviera sleeper train to Penzance, the Caledonian Sleeper to Inverness, or the Eurostar to Lille. Not big places, smallish nice towns with nice places where I can sit down and read books, reasonably luxurious and historic with nice buildings. Anybody been to Penzance, Inverness or Lille?

    We used to have relatives near Penzance, so I've been several times. About the worst service we (Mrs C and self) ever had was in an allegedly 'good' restaurant in Penzance, back in the early 60', in OKC & girl-friend days. The bill had an odd ha-penny in it (long pre-decimal of course) so I counted my small change and managed to pay to the exact ha'penny!

    Thirty or so years later we went back to that restaurant, which now had rave reviews and enjoyed a good meal and good service, so told the proprietor about our previous experience. She was amused, and very sympathetic, especially when she noticed I'd included a tip in my credit card payment.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,009

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400

    Every day they wait brings it closer to the State visit.

    Starmer will sack him the day Trump arrives then...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,009

    Speaking of Liz Truss, is this or is this not batshit crazy? https://x.com/trussliz/status/1965023319540801908

    The USA is arguably today the most unadulterated iteration of ancient British liberties that would still be recognized by our Saxon forefathers… To me, it is the ideas and the culture and the people that embody the Special Relationship between our two countries.

    She posted a picture earlier partying with the people protecting paedophiles. She is crazy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,857

    Jessica Elgot
    @jessicaelgot
    ·
    29m
    Allies of Bridget Phillipson think she will comfortably sail past 80 nominations today, making her the front runner.

    A two horse race looks likely with Phillipson versus Lucy Powell.

    Many dissatisfied with Labour’s direction now lining up with Powell. Next results coming 7ish.

    https://x.com/jessicaelgot
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,990
    Sandpit said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400

    If the story that Mandelson’s relationship with Epstein lasted beyond his original 2008 conviction holds up, then his position is untenable.

    Trump himself had dropped Epstein well before that, supposedly after his behaviour towards Mar-a-Lago staff became a matter of concern.
    The story stands up, and then some. Mandelson himself has admitted his continued association after 2008
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,010
    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    I went up to Scotland last week (I might have mentioned it). I hate trains but I like the idea of a posh train to somewhere nice. That leaves me the Night Riviera sleeper train to Penzance, the Caledonian Sleeper to Inverness, or the Eurostar to Lille. Not big places, smallish nice towns with nice places where I can sit down and read books, reasonably luxurious and historic with nice buildings. Anybody been to Penzance, Inverness or Lille?

    I’ve been to all of them. They’re all great in different ways, and with flaws

    Penzance: real end of the line feeling. You are definitely at a terminus and it’s at the very end of Cornwall. The station is by the sea. You exit to ozone and gulls and fish and chips and saltiness. And you are surrounded by Wild West Cornwall

    But Penzance is a bit run down. Druggies and shuttered shops

    Inverness is quite a handsome town. Granite everywhere. It’s not as dramatic as Penzance but you’re definitely on the door of the highlands and the wilds. The train over to Kyle is spectacular

    Can also be rundown. And cold

    Lille is probably the most architecturally appealing in itself. Nice French Flemish feel. But much more boring in location and nothing to see - unless you like world war 1 battlefields, in which case it’s fab
    I'd agree with all that - but for the Penzance option: why not add on a short branch line hop (changing at St. Erth?) and finish at St. Ives?

    On Lille - my daughter went on a school trip to Lille last winter to visit the Christmas markets - less famous than the German counterparts but just as worthwhile. Perhaps you could do that?

    All that said, if it were me I'd definitely go for Inverness. Regardless of the city at the end, that's the best train ride.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,947

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400

    Oh dear. Couldn't happen to a more competent government and PM
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,698
    Is there a market for the day when Lord Mandelson exits the stage via a trapdoor?

    (Has anyone told Trump they are using Chinese drones.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,846
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400

    If the story that Mandelson’s relationship with Epstein lasted beyond his original 2008 conviction holds up, then his position is untenable.

    Trump himself had dropped Epstein well before that, supposedly after his behaviour towards Mar-a-Lago staff became a matter of concern.
    The story stands up, and then some. Mandelson himself has admitted his continued association after 2008
    In which case he’s a dead man walking, including in the eyes of Trump, and it’s best it was done yesterday.

    Controversial view: ask Boris Johnson if he wants the job. Two of his best friends internationally are Trump and Zelensky.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,651
    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
    MAGA have seized on the random killing of a white girl by a black man and saying it's reverse racism that it's not been given as much attention as various recent killings of black people. The man charged with her killing had a long criminal record, so they are also saying this is a case of Democrats failing to keep bad people locked up. The Spectator is calling it two-tier justice. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/08/trump-blames-democrats-murder-ukrainian-refugee-00551419 has more. Also see https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/10/us/national-debate-crime-charlotte-stabbing

    It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
    George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died

    This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges

    Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there

    She will now become a white George Floyd
    Floyd triggered a movement to highlight racial injustice in America. What is this movement (if it takes off) seeking to highlight? That black men are allowed to murder white women or something?
    The extraordinary disparities in violent crime, by race
    It’s more than that, it’s the attitude of the justice ‘system’ in large cities that shows more compassion for the perpetrator than the victim of crime, and it’s leading to an increasingly lawless country where people just going about their business suddenly end up dead for no reason at all.

    That and the video. Don’t watch the video.
    We have an example right here on this thread

    A commenter goes straight to “let’s feel sorry for young black men” without even mentioning the victim
    As did the Mayor of Charlotte.

    It’s also the entire US “mainstream” media.

    The NY Times ran this headline yesterday, their first mention of the case.



    It’s almost as if they prefer to be on the side of the murderer over a totally innocent victim, rather than admit Trump is right about violent crime in American cities.
    I'm not sure they even care about Trump being right - it feels like the thing they're most angry about is that they're losing the ability to define the national narrative on their terms.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,947
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    I went up to Scotland last week (I might have mentioned it). I hate trains but I like the idea of a posh train to somewhere nice. That leaves me the Night Riviera sleeper train to Penzance, the Caledonian Sleeper to Inverness, or the Eurostar to Lille. Not big places, smallish nice towns with nice places where I can sit down and read books, reasonably luxurious and historic with nice buildings. Anybody been to Penzance, Inverness or Lille?

    I was in Inverness the other week, lovely place. I tried to book the Caledonian Sleeper but it appears that the rare double cabins are already sold out until about November. If you do get there, take the scenic route back towards Fort William and onto Glasgow, some absolutely wonderful scenery.
    Id add, be a little careful if doing the FW or Inv on the sleeper in winter or spring. Flooding etc can lead to an unpleasant coach or minibus to or from Edinburgh. Or be prepared this might happen (I got compensation tbf)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,698
    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    That'll work.

    Grifters stop grifting when they become rich grifters.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,456
    edited 3:02PM
    Cookie said:

    I'm one of the 4%. I've met several MPs. I think the public far too cynical in this respect.

    I think they tend to start off out for the country, fairly quickly get tribalised and become out for their party, and once they've realised they can't actually achieve anything anyway eventually are just out for themselves.

    There are exceptions - whatever one says about them, it's fairly obvious that neither Steve Baker or Jeremy Corbin are mainly out for themselves.

    Somewhat unfortunately, it's generally ones who have got the furthest into this cycle of cynicism have also tended to the the ones most likely to grasp the levers of power - thus we have had such great leaders as Starmer and Johnson, neither of whom seem to have any idea what to do in the top job beyond "try and cling on to it".
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,989
    edited 3:03PM

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400

    Oh dear. Couldn't happen to a more competent government and PM
    He shouldn't have been appointed in the first place, not least because there was an already known Epstein connection

    Talk about 'shooting yourself in the foot'
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,700
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    That'll work.

    Grifters stop grifting when they become rich grifters.
    Are you sure? Take Trump as an example.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,123
    RobD said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    That'll work.

    Grifters stop grifting when they become rich grifters.
    Are you sure? Take Trump as an example.
    I think maybe MattW was being a little bit sarcastic in his words.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656
    edited 3:05PM
    I see Farage is indirectly batting for Mandelson.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,038
    Sandpit said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400

    If the story that Mandelson’s relationship with Epstein lasted beyond his original 2008 conviction holds up, then his position is untenable.

    Trump himself had dropped Epstein well before that, supposedly after his behaviour towards Mar-a-Lago staff became a matter of concern.
    Spoilsport

    Would you deprive us of the fun of watching Labour squirm as Starmer tries to square circles ?

    Remember Trump and Epstein = bad men doing bad things ,, Mandelson and Epstein = poor Peter was deceived

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,846
    edited 3:06PM

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
    MAGA have seized on the random killing of a white girl by a black man and saying it's reverse racism that it's not been given as much attention as various recent killings of black people. The man charged with her killing had a long criminal record, so they are also saying this is a case of Democrats failing to keep bad people locked up. The Spectator is calling it two-tier justice. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/08/trump-blames-democrats-murder-ukrainian-refugee-00551419 has more. Also see https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/10/us/national-debate-crime-charlotte-stabbing

    It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
    George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died

    This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges

    Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there

    She will now become a white George Floyd
    Floyd triggered a movement to highlight racial injustice in America. What is this movement (if it takes off) seeking to highlight? That black men are allowed to murder white women or something?
    The extraordinary disparities in violent crime, by race
    It’s more than that, it’s the attitude of the justice ‘system’ in large cities that shows more compassion for the perpetrator than the victim of crime, and it’s leading to an increasingly lawless country where people just going about their business suddenly end up dead for no reason at all.

    That and the video. Don’t watch the video.
    We have an example right here on this thread

    A commenter goes straight to “let’s feel sorry for young black men” without even mentioning the victim
    As did the Mayor of Charlotte.

    It’s also the entire US “mainstream” media.

    The NY Times ran this headline yesterday, their first mention of the case.



    It’s almost as if they prefer to be on the side of the murderer over a totally innocent victim, rather than admit Trump is right about violent crime in American cities.
    They ran that headline because the online MAGA types were ramping this case so quickly.

    Is Trump right about violent crime in American cities? No. This was published in July: Through the first two quarters of the year [2025], overall crime has decreased 8% compared to this same time last year. Charlotte experienced a 25% reduction in violent crime, which includes homicides, rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults, encompassing shootings. Property crime, which includes residential and commercial burglary, auto theft and larceny, is down 5%. Crime is on the decrease in the places that Trump picks on. Crime is also generally lower in those places than in places with Republicans in charge that Trump doesn't mention. Trump is a convicted felon, who has pardoned violent criminals and is protecting the incarcerated sex offender girlfriend of his former friend Epstein. Trump doesn't care about the many Ukrainians his friend Putin kills every day, but he's going to pick on this case because it fits his narrative.
    The murder happened on 22nd August. It got little mention anywhere until the video came out about three days ago.

    No-one is trusting of the crime statistics, there’s evidence of even homicides being described as accidents in DC, where the President just sent in the troops to keep the peace.

    Even if we trust the statistics implicitly, there’s a difference in the identity of the victims - no-one cares if a bunch of gangbangers kill each other every weekend, but everybody cares when a totally innocent (and let’s face it, very attractive and refugee) woman suddenly gets killed in cold blood on the transit system that almost everyone in the city uses on a daily basis.

    The nearest equivalent in the UK is probably the Sarah Everard murder, when every young lady journalist in London suddenly realised that it could have been her that night.

    That the suspect mentioned the race of the victim on the CCTV audio only adds fuel to the fire.

    Oh, and the full video is all over social media, seriously don’t click on it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,009

    I see Farage is indirectly batting for Mandelson.

    Another reason to sack him. Today.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,123
    President Trump in 2020, when Ghislaine Maxwell had been arrested and charged: "I just wish her well, frankly. I have met her numerous times over the years, especially since I lived in Palm Beach, and I guess they lived in Palm Beach. But I wish her well, whatever it is.”
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,947

    I see Farage is indirectly batting for Mandelson.

    Trump by proxy.
    Mandy will not be a strong issue for Nigey Nigelson
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316
    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
    MAGA have seized on the random killing of a white girl by a black man and saying it's reverse racism that it's not been given as much attention as various recent killings of black people. The man charged with her killing had a long criminal record, so they are also saying this is a case of Democrats failing to keep bad people locked up. The Spectator is calling it two-tier justice. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/08/trump-blames-democrats-murder-ukrainian-refugee-00551419 has more. Also see https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/10/us/national-debate-crime-charlotte-stabbing

    It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
    George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died

    This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges

    Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there

    She will now become a white George Floyd
    Floyd triggered a movement to highlight racial injustice in America. What is this movement (if it takes off) seeking to highlight? That black men are allowed to murder white women or something?
    The extraordinary disparities in violent crime, by race
    It’s more than that, it’s the attitude of the justice ‘system’ in large cities that shows more compassion for the perpetrator than the victim of crime, and it’s leading to an increasingly lawless country where people just going about their business suddenly end up dead for no reason at all.

    That and the video. Don’t watch the video.
    We have an example right here on this thread

    A commenter goes straight to “let’s feel sorry for young black men” without even mentioning the victim
    As did the Mayor of Charlotte.

    It’s also the entire US “mainstream” media.

    The NY Times ran this headline yesterday, their first mention of the case.



    It’s almost as if they prefer to be on the side of the murderer over a totally innocent victim, rather than admit Trump is right about violent crime in American cities.
    Trump is right? I haven't heard him say violent crime in America is on the decrease.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,399
    edited 3:10PM
    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,947

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400

    Oh dear. Couldn't happen to a more competent government and PM
    He shouldn't have been appointed in the first place, not least because there was an already known Epstein connection

    Talk about 'shooting yourself in the foot'
    Mandy still has a lot of influence. Toxic man, toxic party.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,846
    Foss said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
    MAGA have seized on the random killing of a white girl by a black man and saying it's reverse racism that it's not been given as much attention as various recent killings of black people. The man charged with her killing had a long criminal record, so they are also saying this is a case of Democrats failing to keep bad people locked up. The Spectator is calling it two-tier justice. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/08/trump-blames-democrats-murder-ukrainian-refugee-00551419 has more. Also see https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/10/us/national-debate-crime-charlotte-stabbing

    It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
    George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died

    This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges

    Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there

    She will now become a white George Floyd
    Floyd triggered a movement to highlight racial injustice in America. What is this movement (if it takes off) seeking to highlight? That black men are allowed to murder white women or something?
    The extraordinary disparities in violent crime, by race
    It’s more than that, it’s the attitude of the justice ‘system’ in large cities that shows more compassion for the perpetrator than the victim of crime, and it’s leading to an increasingly lawless country where people just going about their business suddenly end up dead for no reason at all.

    That and the video. Don’t watch the video.
    We have an example right here on this thread

    A commenter goes straight to “let’s feel sorry for young black men” without even mentioning the victim
    As did the Mayor of Charlotte.

    It’s also the entire US “mainstream” media.

    The NY Times ran this headline yesterday, their first mention of the case.



    It’s almost as if they prefer to be on the side of the murderer over a totally innocent victim, rather than admit Trump is right about violent crime in American cities.
    I'm not sure they even care about Trump being right - it feels like the thing they're most angry about is that they're losing the ability to define the national narrative on their terms.
    Yes, that the “MSM” see themselves losing control of the narrative is an added facet.

    Fair to say that if Elon Musk hadn’t bought Twitter, this story wouldn’t exist as it does now.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,038

    President Trump in 2020, when Ghislaine Maxwell had been arrested and charged: "I just wish her well, frankly. I have met her numerous times over the years, especially since I lived in Palm Beach, and I guess they lived in Palm Beach. But I wish her well, whatever it is.”

    President Trump in 2020, when Ghislaine Maxwell had been arrested and charged: "I just wish her well, frankly. I have met her numerous times over the years, especially since I lived in Palm Beach, and I guess they lived in Palm Beach. But I wish her well, whatever it is.”

    On that basis Trump could be a high court judge

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15075591/judge-wishes-bombings-mastermind-best-7-7-walk-free.html
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656

    We've all had mates who turned out to be wrong 'uns. But Lord Mandelson's friendships with Geoffrey Robinson, the Hinduja brothers, Oleg Deripaska, Lord Lebedev and Jeffrey Epstein is an astonishing run of bad luck.

    You’re forgetting the worst.

    Tony Blair.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,038

    We've all had mates who turned out to be wrong 'uns. But Lord Mandelson's friendships with Geoffrey Robinson, the Hinduja brothers, Oleg Deripaska, Lord Lebedev and Jeffrey Epstein is an astonishing run of bad luck.

    You’re forgetting the worst.

    Tony Blair.
    Cameron's hero
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,455
    viewcode said:

    I went up to Scotland last week (I might have mentioned it). I hate trains but I like the idea of a posh train to somewhere nice. That leaves me the Night Riviera sleeper train to Penzance, the Caledonian Sleeper to Inverness, or the Eurostar to Lille. Not big places, smallish nice towns with nice places where I can sit down and read books, reasonably luxurious and historic with nice buildings. Anybody been to Penzance, Inverness or Lille?

    Lille by Eurostar last week. You can save yourself some money as Lille (and that part of France) is not that attractive. Bit like a trip to Redcar or Sunderland.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,242

    We've all had mates who turned out to be wrong 'uns. But Lord Mandelson's friendships with Geoffrey Robinson, the Hinduja brothers, Oleg Deripaska, Lord Lebedev and Jeffrey Epstein is an astonishing run of bad luck.

    This article from 2012 sums up the world of Mandy,

    https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/mandys-mates-the-peter-mandelson-diaspora-6785303.html

    and it reminded me he was in difficult water in 2009 due to meetings with David Geffen who is also mired in scandal about alleged sex parties and abuse.

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-07-23/david-geffen-accused-of-abusing-husband-in-lawsuit
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656

    We've all had mates who turned out to be wrong 'uns. But Lord Mandelson's friendships with Geoffrey Robinson, the Hinduja brothers, Oleg Deripaska, Lord Lebedev and Jeffrey Epstein is an astonishing run of bad luck.

    You’re forgetting the worst.

    Tony Blair.
    Cameron's hero
    Nope.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,205
    Mandelsons defence seems to be that even though Epstein was convicted and in prison he believed that he wasn’t guilty as he was assured by him that he had done nothing wrong and he believed him and that’s why he stayed in his apartment and continued the friendship !

    And the so called due process vetting didn’t raise this as a red flag ! And Starmer went along with this .

    There were loads of choices for UK ambassador to the US who didn’t come with this baggage and who I expect could have been suitably sycophantic of Trump but apparently only Mandelson was capable of doing the job .
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,123
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
    MAGA have seized on the random killing of a white girl by a black man and saying it's reverse racism that it's not been given as much attention as various recent killings of black people. The man charged with her killing had a long criminal record, so they are also saying this is a case of Democrats failing to keep bad people locked up. The Spectator is calling it two-tier justice. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/08/trump-blames-democrats-murder-ukrainian-refugee-00551419 has more. Also see https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/10/us/national-debate-crime-charlotte-stabbing

    It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
    George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died

    This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges

    Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there

    She will now become a white George Floyd
    Floyd triggered a movement to highlight racial injustice in America. What is this movement (if it takes off) seeking to highlight? That black men are allowed to murder white women or something?
    The extraordinary disparities in violent crime, by race
    It’s more than that, it’s the attitude of the justice ‘system’ in large cities that shows more compassion for the perpetrator than the victim of crime, and it’s leading to an increasingly lawless country where people just going about their business suddenly end up dead for no reason at all.

    That and the video. Don’t watch the video.
    We have an example right here on this thread

    A commenter goes straight to “let’s feel sorry for young black men” without even mentioning the victim
    As did the Mayor of Charlotte.

    It’s also the entire US “mainstream” media.

    The NY Times ran this headline yesterday, their first mention of the case.



    It’s almost as if they prefer to be on the side of the murderer over a totally innocent victim, rather than admit Trump is right about violent crime in American cities.
    They ran that headline because the online MAGA types were ramping this case so quickly.

    Is Trump right about violent crime in American cities? No. This was published in July: Through the first two quarters of the year [2025], overall crime has decreased 8% compared to this same time last year. Charlotte experienced a 25% reduction in violent crime, which includes homicides, rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults, encompassing shootings. Property crime, which includes residential and commercial burglary, auto theft and larceny, is down 5%. Crime is on the decrease in the places that Trump picks on. Crime is also generally lower in those places than in places with Republicans in charge that Trump doesn't mention. Trump is a convicted felon, who has pardoned violent criminals and is protecting the incarcerated sex offender girlfriend of his former friend Epstein. Trump doesn't care about the many Ukrainians his friend Putin kills every day, but he's going to pick on this case because it fits his narrative.
    The murder happened on 22nd August. It got little mention anywhere until the video came out about three days ago.

    No-one is trusting of the crime statistics, there’s evidence of even homicides being described as accidents in DC, where the President just sent in the troops to keep the peace.

    Even if we trust the statistics implicitly, there’s a difference in the identity of the victims - no-one cares if a bunch of gangbangers kill each other every weekend, but everybody cares when a totally innocent (and let’s face it, very attractive and refugee) woman suddenly gets killed in cold blood on the transit system that almost everyone in the city uses on a daily basis.

    The nearest equivalent in the UK is probably the Sarah Everard murder, when every young lady journalist in London suddenly realised that it could have been her that night.

    That the suspect mentioned the race of the victim on the CCTV audio only adds fuel to the fire.

    Oh, and the full video is all over social media, seriously don’t click on it.
    The murder was gruesome (as the NYT said) and horrific. The video obviously makes it feel more real and immediate. We should absolutely, as a society, want to stop such murders happening.

    Once the video came out, the online MAGA types started ramping the case online to fit their narrative. I don't see anything wrong in the NYT reporting that.

    Your claim that, "No-one is trusting of the crime statistics" is nonsense. The people casting doubt on the crime statistics are the same online MAGA types. It's the same as the doubt around the job statistics that happened as soon as the job statistics showed the damage that Trump is doing to the US economy. You are just peddling MAGA conspiracy theories again. Why you continue to post any old nonsense to support Trump, I don't know.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,123
    Scott_xP said:

    I see Farage is indirectly batting for Mandelson.

    Another reason to sack him. Today.
    I don't think we can sack Farage, sadly.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656
    These quotation marks have led to me poking my dirty mind's eye with a rusty nail, damn you the Daily Telegraph.

    Epstein’s assistant ‘sat on Queen’s throne’

    Details contained in a book compiled by Ghislaine Maxwell, who also had a private tour of Buckingham Palace


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/09/09/jeffrey-epstein-assistant-queen-throne-buckingham-palace/
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,205
    Scott_xP said:
    We’ve heard it all before from Trump .
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,538
    Sandpit said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400

    If the story that Mandelson’s relationship with Epstein lasted beyond his original 2008 conviction holds up, then his position is untenable.

    Trump himself had dropped Epstein well before that, supposedly after his behaviour towards Mar-a-Lago staff became a matter of concern.
    An interesting spin on Trump's disagreement with Epstein over him poaching under-age spa workers from Mar a Lago
    “He hired help, and I said, ‘Don’t ever do that again.’ He stole people that work for me. I said, ‘Don’t ever do that again.’ He did it again,” Trump said.
    https://www.cnbc.com/2025/07/28/trump-jeffrey-epstein-maxwell-workers.html
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316
    Sandpit said:

    Foss said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
    MAGA have seized on the random killing of a white girl by a black man and saying it's reverse racism that it's not been given as much attention as various recent killings of black people. The man charged with her killing had a long criminal record, so they are also saying this is a case of Democrats failing to keep bad people locked up. The Spectator is calling it two-tier justice. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/08/trump-blames-democrats-murder-ukrainian-refugee-00551419 has more. Also see https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/10/us/national-debate-crime-charlotte-stabbing

    It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
    George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died

    This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges

    Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there

    She will now become a white George Floyd
    Floyd triggered a movement to highlight racial injustice in America. What is this movement (if it takes off) seeking to highlight? That black men are allowed to murder white women or something?
    The extraordinary disparities in violent crime, by race
    It’s more than that, it’s the attitude of the justice ‘system’ in large cities that shows more compassion for the perpetrator than the victim of crime, and it’s leading to an increasingly lawless country where people just going about their business suddenly end up dead for no reason at all.

    That and the video. Don’t watch the video.
    We have an example right here on this thread

    A commenter goes straight to “let’s feel sorry for young black men” without even mentioning the victim
    As did the Mayor of Charlotte.

    It’s also the entire US “mainstream” media.

    The NY Times ran this headline yesterday, their first mention of the case.



    It’s almost as if they prefer to be on the side of the murderer over a totally innocent victim, rather than admit Trump is right about violent crime in American cities.
    I'm not sure they even care about Trump being right - it feels like the thing they're most angry about is that they're losing the ability to define the national narrative on their terms.
    Yes, that the “MSM” see themselves losing control of the narrative is an added facet.

    Fair to say that if Elon Musk hadn’t bought Twitter, this story wouldn’t exist as it does now.
    Yes, great that it's all over the place, and with the video too. I don't know how we got by before.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,010
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
    Yes, but we might try.
    One of the problems those of us who advocate this approach have is that the people whise job it is to convince the public of an argument are politicians. Whuch necessarily prompts a little scepticism about the altruism of the argument.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656
    Scott_xP said:
    Trump's channelling Fabrizio Romano announcing a transfer deal.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,846
    edited 3:23PM
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
    The persuasion is that almost every ‘scandal’ that leads in the UK to a resignation, time on the backbenches, maybe a comeback later or maybe a newspaper column, TV appearances etc, instead results in serious prison time, as well as loss of salary and pension.

    A “Rayner” in Singapore would be properly cancelled for life, looking at perhaps 10 years in the Big House, her wider family would be ashamed to admit that they’re related to her. While having to pay her rent, because she can’t even get a job on the till in the local supermarket.

    There’s an argument that paying an MP £250k and the PM £500k, but on those conditions, can actually attract people interested in public service rather than the nakedly ambitious.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316
    Scott_xP said:
    What a pathetic infantile communication.

    (him, I mean, Scott)
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,006
    Starmer is lucky the BBC haven’t put the PMQs footage on the Mandelson/Epstein story.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,914
    nico67 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    We’ve heard it all before from Trump .
    When he goes nova though he will throw us all in. Exemptions for bone spurs of course,
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,857

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump's channelling Fabrizio Romano announcing a transfer deal.
    Well he did insist on renaming DoD as Department of War last week.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,464

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump's channelling Fabrizio Romano announcing a transfer deal.
    “Incoming!”
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,123
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
    The persuasion is that almost every ‘scandal’ that leads in the UK to a resignation, time on the backbenches, maybe a comeback later or maybe a newspaper column, TV appearances etc, instead results in serious prison time, as well as loss of salary and pension.

    A “Rayner” in Singapore would be properly cancelled for life, looking at perhaps 10 years in the Big House, her wider family would be ashamed to admit that they’re related to her.

    There’s an argument that paying an MP £250k and the PM £500k, but on those conditions, can actually attract people interested in public service rather than the nakedly ambitious.
    So, if Rayner should have gotten 10 years for a tax mistake, I presume Trump should be locked up for life.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,464
    Tories claim Starmer has 'put party above national security' by keeping Mandelson in post
    A Conservative party spokesperson issued this statement after PMQs.

    Keir Starmer was in complete disarray at PMQs.
    There are clearly questions he refuses to answer, because it appears he knew that Peter Mandelson had an intimate relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, and still chose to appoint him to one of our country’s most important diplomatic and economic roles.
    The prime minister has put his party, and his friend Mandelson above our national security. Only full transparency will now suffice. Starmer must immediately publish all documents related to Lord Mandelson’s appointment.
    The claim that having Mandelson remain as ambassador to the US could compromise national security echoes what Ed Davey suggested at PMQs when he asked if the White House had further “compromising material” on Mandelson that could, Davey implied, by used by Donald Trump as leverage.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,991

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Inside No.10 there’s a mounting sense of crisis. And it’s centred around the following dynamic. They realise that politically they have to cut Mandelson loose. But strategically they feel they can’t, because of Trump’s proximity to the Epstein issue. It’s the perfect storm.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1965785548246876400

    They need Mandelson to resign for some other reason - a different job, a health crisis, baby adoption, anything.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,464

    That's Badenoch's best PMQs and Starmer is a national embarrassment

    Lord Yum Yum must be gone before the State visit. The UK needs a British Ambassador, not a shifty self serving networker. How Starmer orchestrates it will be interesting to see - as what is abundantly clear from today’s PMQs, WHAT CLEARLY MAKES A RESIGNATION MATTER NOW WAS ALREADY KNOWN TO STARMER WHEN HE MADE THE APPOINTMENT. Who predicted the first weeks after the holidays would be such fun politics. Looking back, these weeks, days and hours may be redefining British Politics for a generation.

    A Labour Party implosion in the polls with benefit Kemi and the Conservatives most of all.
    Yes. Starmer needs to send a clear message that any association with Epstein is beyond the pale. However, for the sake of preserving international relations, perhaps he should wait until after the state visit of that other bloke in the photos.
    Take a thump in the face then sack sack him, or sack him and avoid thump in the face? Which way round are you explaining is the biggest gift to the Starmer shredding media?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
    The persuasion is that almost every ‘scandal’ that leads in the UK to a resignation, time on the backbenches, maybe a comeback later or maybe a newspaper column, TV appearances etc, instead results in serious prison time, as well as loss of salary and pension.

    A “Rayner” in Singapore would be properly cancelled for life, looking at perhaps 10 years in the Big House, her wider family would be ashamed to admit that they’re related to her. While having to pay her rent, because she can’t even get a job on the till in the local supermarket.

    There’s an argument that paying an MP £250k and the PM £500k, but on those conditions, can actually attract people interested in public service rather than the nakedly ambitious.
    Rather draconian - but you wouldn't get a Boris Johnson with that, would you, so not completely without its merits.

    I do actually see a case for fewer and better paid MPs.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,789

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump's channelling Fabrizio Romano announcing a transfer deal.
    Romano has much more credibility..
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316
    edited 3:35PM

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    While we’re (rightly) vexed by Mandelson and Poland this is on fire in America

    “I am offering $500k in $10k grants to paint murals of the face of Iryna Zarutska in prominent US city locations

    Please contact katie@eoghan.com for more details

    Please also share this message

    If you would like to contribute to this fund, please contact Katie also”

    https://x.com/eoghan/status/1965567989002240125?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Musk just promised $1m

    Wouldn’t they be better starting a fund for basic treatment for the psychotically ill?
    It's great how the MAGA crowd have gone from hating Ukrainians as corrupt Biden-supporters who started a war against Russia to loving them. Maybe the money would be best sent to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    What's the political angle here? My understanding was that this was tragic-random-killing example #22,386 this year in America. Is there more to it?
    MAGA have seized on the random killing of a white girl by a black man and saying it's reverse racism that it's not been given as much attention as various recent killings of black people. The man charged with her killing had a long criminal record, so they are also saying this is a case of Democrats failing to keep bad people locked up. The Spectator is calling it two-tier justice. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/08/trump-blames-democrats-murder-ukrainian-refugee-00551419 has more. Also see https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/10/us/national-debate-crime-charlotte-stabbing

    It was a horrific, random killing, but has now become massively politicised by the right.
    George Floyd was a thuggish black career criminal who was on fentanyl when he died

    This is an entirely innocent white Ukrainian refugee who herself was killed by a black career criminal who has been released 14 times by inept liberal judges

    Both terrible deaths were filmed, in hideous detail. The first one caused a massive moral reckoning and massive angry riots, the second was buried as deep as possible by liberal media and only emerged because Musk owns X and people can spread it there

    She will now become a white George Floyd
    Floyd triggered a movement to highlight racial injustice in America. What is this movement (if it takes off) seeking to highlight? That black men are allowed to murder white women or something?
    The extraordinary disparities in violent crime, by race
    It’s more than that, it’s the attitude of the justice ‘system’ in large cities that shows more compassion for the perpetrator than the victim of crime, and it’s leading to an increasingly lawless country where people just going about their business suddenly end up dead for no reason at all.

    That and the video. Don’t watch the video.
    We have an example right here on this thread

    A commenter goes straight to “let’s feel sorry for young black men” without even mentioning the victim
    As did the Mayor of Charlotte.

    It’s also the entire US “mainstream” media.

    The NY Times ran this headline yesterday, their first mention of the case.



    It’s almost as if they prefer to be on the side of the murderer over a totally innocent victim, rather than admit Trump is right about violent crime in American cities.
    They ran that headline because the online MAGA types were ramping this case so quickly.

    Is Trump right about violent crime in American cities? No. This was published in July: Through the first two quarters of the year [2025], overall crime has decreased 8% compared to this same time last year. Charlotte experienced a 25% reduction in violent crime, which includes homicides, rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults, encompassing shootings. Property crime, which includes residential and commercial burglary, auto theft and larceny, is down 5%. Crime is on the decrease in the places that Trump picks on. Crime is also generally lower in those places than in places with Republicans in charge that Trump doesn't mention. Trump is a convicted felon, who has pardoned violent criminals and is protecting the incarcerated sex offender girlfriend of his former friend Epstein. Trump doesn't care about the many Ukrainians his friend Putin kills every day, but he's going to pick on this case because it fits his narrative.
    The murder happened on 22nd August. It got little mention anywhere until the video came out about three days ago.

    No-one is trusting of the crime statistics, there’s evidence of even homicides being described as accidents in DC, where the President just sent in the troops to keep the peace.

    Even if we trust the statistics implicitly, there’s a difference in the identity of the victims - no-one cares if a bunch of gangbangers kill each other every weekend, but everybody cares when a totally innocent (and let’s face it, very attractive and refugee) woman suddenly gets killed in cold blood on the transit system that almost everyone in the city uses on a daily basis.

    The nearest equivalent in the UK is probably the Sarah Everard murder, when every young lady journalist in London suddenly realised that it could have been her that night.

    That the suspect mentioned the race of the victim on the CCTV audio only adds fuel to the fire.

    Oh, and the full video is all over social media, seriously don’t click on it.
    The murder was gruesome (as the NYT said) and horrific. The video obviously makes it feel more real and immediate. We should absolutely, as a society, want to stop such murders happening.

    Once the video came out, the online MAGA types started ramping the case online to fit their narrative. I don't see anything wrong in the NYT reporting that.

    Your claim that, "No-one is trusting of the crime statistics" is nonsense. The people casting doubt on the crime statistics are the same online MAGA types. It's the same as the doubt around the job statistics that happened as soon as the job statistics showed the damage that Trump is doing to the US economy. You are just peddling MAGA conspiracy theories again. Why you continue to post any old nonsense to support Trump, I don't know.
    He swallows the shit like it's a sherry trifle.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,123
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
    The persuasion is that almost every ‘scandal’ that leads in the UK to a resignation, time on the backbenches, maybe a comeback later or maybe a newspaper column, TV appearances etc, instead results in serious prison time, as well as loss of salary and pension.

    A “Rayner” in Singapore would be properly cancelled for life, looking at perhaps 10 years in the Big House, her wider family would be ashamed to admit that they’re related to her. While having to pay her rent, because she can’t even get a job on the till in the local supermarket.

    There’s an argument that paying an MP £250k and the PM £500k, but on those conditions, can actually attract people interested in public service rather than the nakedly ambitious.
    I don't think you've summarised the Singaporean approach particularly well, e.g. see https://www.npr.org/2024/10/03/g-s1-26119/singapore-minister-sentenced-to-a-year-in-prison-in-corruption-case
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656
    Peter Mandelson urged Tony Blair to meet Epstein in secret memo

    Officials have stopped the 2002 note becoming public, fearing it could damage UK-US relations


    Officials blocked the release of a secret memo in which Lord Mandelson urged Sir Tony Blair to meet Jeffrey Epstein while he was prime minister.

    Mandelson, who is Britain’s ambassador to the US, is understood to have encouraged Blair to meet Epstein in a 2002 note sent to key aides, advice which was passed on to the prime minister.

    Documents were due to be made public as part of a standard National Archives release but this was blocked, The Times understands. It is thought that officials concluded the document might embarrass Britain and harm relations with the US at a time when Mandelson is seeking to build relations with President Trump.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/peter-mandelson-epstein-tony-blair-hflxzg6c6
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,914
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
    The persuasion is that almost every ‘scandal’ that leads in the UK to a resignation, time on the backbenches, maybe a comeback later or maybe a newspaper column, TV appearances etc, instead results in serious prison time, as well as loss of salary and pension.

    A “Rayner” in Singapore would be properly cancelled for life, looking at perhaps 10 years in the Big House, her wider family would be ashamed to admit that they’re related to her. While having to pay her rent, because she can’t even get a job on the till in the local supermarket.

    There’s an argument that paying an MP £250k and the PM £500k, but on those conditions, can actually attract people interested in public service rather than the nakedly ambitious.
    Rather draconian - but you wouldn't get a Boris Johnson with that, would you, so not completely without its merits.

    I do actually see a case for fewer and better paid MPs.
    Fewer and better paid ministers would be better. There are far too many MPs that are tied up in government.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,006

    Peter Mandelson urged Tony Blair to meet Epstein in secret memo

    Officials have stopped the 2002 note becoming public, fearing it could damage UK-US relations


    Officials blocked the release of a secret memo in which Lord Mandelson urged Sir Tony Blair to meet Jeffrey Epstein while he was prime minister.

    Mandelson, who is Britain’s ambassador to the US, is understood to have encouraged Blair to meet Epstein in a 2002 note sent to key aides, advice which was passed on to the prime minister.

    Documents were due to be made public as part of a standard National Archives release but this was blocked, The Times understands. It is thought that officials concluded the document might embarrass Britain and harm relations with the US at a time when Mandelson is seeking to build relations with President Trump.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/peter-mandelson-epstein-tony-blair-hflxzg6c6

    This is just going to keep running until Starmer gets rid.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,396
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    I went up to Scotland last week (I might have mentioned it). I hate trains but I like the idea of a posh train to somewhere nice. That leaves me the Night Riviera sleeper train to Penzance, the Caledonian Sleeper to Inverness, or the Eurostar to Lille. Not big places, smallish nice towns with nice places where I can sit down and read books, reasonably luxurious and historic with nice buildings. Anybody been to Penzance, Inverness or Lille?

    I’ve been to all of them. They’re all great in different ways, and with flaws

    Penzance: real end of the line feeling. You are definitely at a terminus and it’s at the very end of Cornwall. The station is by the sea. You exit to ozone and gulls and fish and chips and saltiness. And you are surrounded by Wild West Cornwall

    But Penzance is a bit run down. Druggies and shuttered shops

    Inverness is quite a handsome town. Granite everywhere. It’s not as dramatic as Penzance but you’re definitely on the door of the highlands and the wilds. The train over to Kyle is spectacular

    Can also be rundown. And cold

    Lille is probably the most architecturally appealing in itself. Nice French Flemish feel. But much more boring in location and nothing to see - unless you like world war 1 battlefields, in which case it’s fab
    I'd agree with all that - but for the Penzance option: why not add on a short branch line hop (changing at St. Erth?) and finish at St. Ives?

    On Lille - my daughter went on a school trip to Lille last winter to visit the Christmas markets - less famous than the German counterparts but just as worthwhile. Perhaps you could do that?

    All that said, if it were me I'd definitely go for Inverness. Regardless of the city at the end, that's the best train ride.
    Inverness - maybe walk over to the Caledonian canal lock staircase and along the canal end to the sea lock. Maybe even a cruise along the canal into Loch Ness (which is some way away, but not too much). Good base also for side trips to eg Elgin, Strathpeffer, Cromarty.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,512
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
    The persuasion is that almost every ‘scandal’ that leads in the UK to a resignation, time on the backbenches, maybe a comeback later or maybe a newspaper column, TV appearances etc, instead results in serious prison time, as well as loss of salary and pension.

    A “Rayner” in Singapore would be properly cancelled for life, looking at perhaps 10 years in the Big House, her wider family would be ashamed to admit that they’re related to her. While having to pay her rent, because she can’t even get a job on the till in the local supermarket.

    There’s an argument that paying an MP £250k and the PM £500k, but on those conditions, can actually attract people interested in public service rather than the nakedly ambitious.
    Rather draconian - but you wouldn't get a Boris Johnson with that, would you, so not completely without its merits.

    I do actually see a case for fewer and better paid MPs.
    That does have its merits.

    Singapore is about the last place on earth that I would want to break the law.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
    Yes, but we might try.
    One of the problems those of us who advocate this approach have is that the people whise job it is to convince the public of an argument are politicians. Whuch necessarily prompts a little scepticism about the altruism of the argument.
    Yes, that is a structural flaw. I agree btw. It's a very serious and demanding job which we want talented capable hard-working people to aspire to do.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,464

    Peter Mandelson urged Tony Blair to meet Epstein in secret memo

    Officials have stopped the 2002 note becoming public, fearing it could damage UK-US relations


    Officials blocked the release of a secret memo in which Lord Mandelson urged Sir Tony Blair to meet Jeffrey Epstein while he was prime minister.

    Mandelson, who is Britain’s ambassador to the US, is understood to have encouraged Blair to meet Epstein in a 2002 note sent to key aides, advice which was passed on to the prime minister.

    Documents were due to be made public as part of a standard National Archives release but this was blocked, The Times understands. It is thought that officials concluded the document might embarrass Britain and harm relations with the US at a time when Mandelson is seeking to build relations with President Trump.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/peter-mandelson-epstein-tony-blair-hflxzg6c6

    Probably something in The Times safe they had to blow dust off.
    Probably leaked to them by the Brown Administration 😆
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,945

    Omnium said:

    I thought the thread would just have a snap of Mandelson given the title. And first!

    I posted this at the end of the last thread and on topic I am in the 4%:

    Good afternoon

    On Mandelson it is simply unacceptable for him to continue as our Ambassador to the US

    The revelations this week of Trump, Mandelson, Clinton and others 50th birthday cards to Epstein, with the accompanying text, shames our Nation and that someone as close to Epstein should even be considered to represent us in America

    Trump should also fall on his 'disgusting' revelations but, sadly, we cannot do anything about him, but Mandelson is our problem, and we can.

    Labour mps should tell Starmer he has to demand his resignation irrespective of how it may compromise Starmer

    Every Minister appearing in the media is simply going to be overwhelmed by questions about Mandelson's future

    Furthermore, how can he be present at Trumps 'state' visit in the light of these revelations

    Indeed, if he had any decency he would simply resign now
    Peter Mandelson has a very well established track record which was very well known before this latest appointment. In spite of that, or perhaps because of that, clearly SKS considered he was the man for this particular job in these (possibly unique) circumstances.

    Why get all panic-stricken now? If he was the right person then he's still the right person now.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656

    Peter Mandelson urged Tony Blair to meet Epstein in secret memo

    Officials have stopped the 2002 note becoming public, fearing it could damage UK-US relations


    Officials blocked the release of a secret memo in which Lord Mandelson urged Sir Tony Blair to meet Jeffrey Epstein while he was prime minister.

    Mandelson, who is Britain’s ambassador to the US, is understood to have encouraged Blair to meet Epstein in a 2002 note sent to key aides, advice which was passed on to the prime minister.

    Documents were due to be made public as part of a standard National Archives release but this was blocked, The Times understands. It is thought that officials concluded the document might embarrass Britain and harm relations with the US at a time when Mandelson is seeking to build relations with President Trump.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/peter-mandelson-epstein-tony-blair-hflxzg6c6

    This is just going to keep running until Starmer gets rid.
    I am told there's at least one senior Tory who is also about to get wrapped up in this shit show (and thank feck it's not Dave or George.)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,017

    Starmer is lucky the BBC haven’t put the PMQs footage on the Mandelson/Epstein story.

    What is the Mandelso/Epstein story except for some prurience by a few second rate hacks. Has he done something illegal? I loathe Trump so would be delighted to have someone less sycophantic representing UK interests but that's nothing to do with Epstein. This guilt by association is pretty tabloid and unattractive,
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,947
    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    I went up to Scotland last week (I might have mentioned it). I hate trains but I like the idea of a posh train to somewhere nice. That leaves me the Night Riviera sleeper train to Penzance, the Caledonian Sleeper to Inverness, or the Eurostar to Lille. Not big places, smallish nice towns with nice places where I can sit down and read books, reasonably luxurious and historic with nice buildings. Anybody been to Penzance, Inverness or Lille?

    I’ve been to all of them. They’re all great in different ways, and with flaws

    Penzance: real end of the line feeling. You are definitely at a terminus and it’s at the very end of Cornwall. The station is by the sea. You exit to ozone and gulls and fish and chips and saltiness. And you are surrounded by Wild West Cornwall

    But Penzance is a bit run down. Druggies and shuttered shops

    Inverness is quite a handsome town. Granite everywhere. It’s not as dramatic as Penzance but you’re definitely on the door of the highlands and the wilds. The train over to Kyle is spectacular

    Can also be rundown. And cold

    Lille is probably the most architecturally appealing in itself. Nice French Flemish feel. But much more boring in location and nothing to see - unless you like world war 1 battlefields, in which case it’s fab
    I'd agree with all that - but for the Penzance option: why not add on a short branch line hop (changing at St. Erth?) and finish at St. Ives?

    On Lille - my daughter went on a school trip to Lille last winter to visit the Christmas markets - less famous than the German counterparts but just as worthwhile. Perhaps you could do that?

    All that said, if it were me I'd definitely go for Inverness. Regardless of the city at the end, that's the best train ride.
    Inverness - maybe walk over to the Caledonian canal lock staircase and along the canal end to the sea lock. Maybe even a cruise along the canal into Loch Ness (which is some way away, but not too much). Good base also for side trips to eg Elgin, Strathpeffer, Cromarty.
    I think they do cruises from Dochgarroch from memory?
    If not jump on the bus to either Drumnadrochit and do the Nessie tourust stuff and a cruise or down to Fort Augustus where they do some nice hourly cruises
    If going to Fort William by sleeper, Linnhe Cruises do a great cruise on Loch Linnhe, you get up close and personal with seals and its very informative
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,512

    Peter Mandelson urged Tony Blair to meet Epstein in secret memo

    Officials have stopped the 2002 note becoming public, fearing it could damage UK-US relations


    Officials blocked the release of a secret memo in which Lord Mandelson urged Sir Tony Blair to meet Jeffrey Epstein while he was prime minister.

    Mandelson, who is Britain’s ambassador to the US, is understood to have encouraged Blair to meet Epstein in a 2002 note sent to key aides, advice which was passed on to the prime minister.

    Documents were due to be made public as part of a standard National Archives release but this was blocked, The Times understands. It is thought that officials concluded the document might embarrass Britain and harm relations with the US at a time when Mandelson is seeking to build relations with President Trump.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/peter-mandelson-epstein-tony-blair-hflxzg6c6

    This is just going to keep running until Starmer gets rid.
    I am told there's at least one senior Tory who is also about to get wrapped up in this shit show (and thank feck it's not Dave or George.)
    It's Boris, isn't it?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,538

    Peter Mandelson urged Tony Blair to meet Epstein in secret memo

    Officials have stopped the 2002 note becoming public, fearing it could damage UK-US relations


    Officials blocked the release of a secret memo in which Lord Mandelson urged Sir Tony Blair to meet Jeffrey Epstein while he was prime minister.

    Mandelson, who is Britain’s ambassador to the US, is understood to have encouraged Blair to meet Epstein in a 2002 note sent to key aides, advice which was passed on to the prime minister.

    Documents were due to be made public as part of a standard National Archives release but this was blocked, The Times understands. It is thought that officials concluded the document might embarrass Britain and harm relations with the US at a time when Mandelson is seeking to build relations with President Trump.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/peter-mandelson-epstein-tony-blair-hflxzg6c6

    Is the implication of that story that Blair had more sense?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,674
    Bob Worcester has died (and there's that man again):-

    Sir Robert Worcester, doyen of opinion pollsters who advised Wilson and Callaghan and founded Mori
    He was held responsible for Callaghan’s disastrous delay to the 1979 election, and was later sacked as Labour’s pollster by Peter Mandelson

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/db0290296e2c846f

    Gift subscription, not paywalled.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
    The persuasion is that almost every ‘scandal’ that leads in the UK to a resignation, time on the backbenches, maybe a comeback later or maybe a newspaper column, TV appearances etc, instead results in serious prison time, as well as loss of salary and pension.

    A “Rayner” in Singapore would be properly cancelled for life, looking at perhaps 10 years in the Big House, her wider family would be ashamed to admit that they’re related to her. While having to pay her rent, because she can’t even get a job on the till in the local supermarket.

    There’s an argument that paying an MP £250k and the PM £500k, but on those conditions, can actually attract people interested in public service rather than the nakedly ambitious.
    Rather draconian - but you wouldn't get a Boris Johnson with that, would you, so not completely without its merits.

    I do actually see a case for fewer and better paid MPs.
    That does have its merits.

    Singapore is about the last place on earth that I would want to break the law.
    No, but such a different culture, and unpleasant in many ways imo. Still, no reason not to take note of what works there.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,399
    Roger said:

    Starmer is lucky the BBC haven’t put the PMQs footage on the Mandelson/Epstein story.

    What is the Mandelso/Epstein story except for some prurience by a few second rate hacks. Has he done something illegal? I loathe Trump so would be delighted to have someone less sycophantic representing UK interests but that's nothing to do with Epstein. This guilt by association is pretty tabloid and unattractive,
    That's Mandy f##ked then....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,316

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Controversial take: we should pay them a lot more

    Reduce the number of MPs and Lords but give them much higher salaries. So they have less inclination to sleaze and much smarter people will try for the job

    Right now we are ruled by morons as only morons fancy an underpaid career where they might get sacked any moment

    For evidence, see Keir Starmer, a moron

    Singapore approach. Paid well, but its your only job and even a hint of dodginess you are out with stronger law specifically around elected officials misconduct. None of this well i had a 3 homes, I lied about legal advice, soz, but off to the backbench plotting when to come back.
    Good luck with persuading the public on the need for politicians to be paid a lot more.
    The persuasion is that almost every ‘scandal’ that leads in the UK to a resignation, time on the backbenches, maybe a comeback later or maybe a newspaper column, TV appearances etc, instead results in serious prison time, as well as loss of salary and pension.

    A “Rayner” in Singapore would be properly cancelled for life, looking at perhaps 10 years in the Big House, her wider family would be ashamed to admit that they’re related to her.

    There’s an argument that paying an MP £250k and the PM £500k, but on those conditions, can actually attract people interested in public service rather than the nakedly ambitious.
    So, if Rayner should have gotten 10 years for a tax mistake, I presume Trump should be locked up for life.
    The DP, I'd have thought. As a minimum.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,512
    Roger said:

    Starmer is lucky the BBC haven’t put the PMQs footage on the Mandelson/Epstein story.

    What is the Mandelso/Epstein story except for some prurience by a few second rate hacks. Has he done something illegal? I loathe Trump so would be delighted to have someone less sycophantic representing UK interests but that's nothing to do with Epstein. This guilt by association is pretty tabloid and unattractive,
    When you accept the hospitality of someone who has just been convicted of a serious sexual offence, well, as the saying goes:

    "Lie down with dogs, and pick up fleas."
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656
    Sean_F said:

    Peter Mandelson urged Tony Blair to meet Epstein in secret memo

    Officials have stopped the 2002 note becoming public, fearing it could damage UK-US relations


    Officials blocked the release of a secret memo in which Lord Mandelson urged Sir Tony Blair to meet Jeffrey Epstein while he was prime minister.

    Mandelson, who is Britain’s ambassador to the US, is understood to have encouraged Blair to meet Epstein in a 2002 note sent to key aides, advice which was passed on to the prime minister.

    Documents were due to be made public as part of a standard National Archives release but this was blocked, The Times understands. It is thought that officials concluded the document might embarrass Britain and harm relations with the US at a time when Mandelson is seeking to build relations with President Trump.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/peter-mandelson-epstein-tony-blair-hflxzg6c6

    This is just going to keep running until Starmer gets rid.
    I am told there's at least one senior Tory who is also about to get wrapped up in this shit show (and thank feck it's not Dave or George.)
    It's Boris, isn't it?
    You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,656
    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Starmer is lucky the BBC haven’t put the PMQs footage on the Mandelson/Epstein story.

    What is the Mandelso/Epstein story except for some prurience by a few second rate hacks. Has he done something illegal? I loathe Trump so would be delighted to have someone less sycophantic representing UK interests but that's nothing to do with Epstein. This guilt by association is pretty tabloid and unattractive,
    When you accept the hospitality of someone who has just been convicted of a serious sexual offence, well, as the saying goes:

    "Lie down with dogs, and pick up fleas."
    It's a bit Prince Andrewesque.
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