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Vox populi, vox Dei – politicalbetting.com

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,408
    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,897

    Sir Keir Starmer says the government will explore whether further protective measures can be put in place on social media platforms after tennis player Katie Boulter highlighted the sickening abuse she received.

    Too bleeding obvious for sports people not to read this abuse? That's the other side of the problem. Because social media is so addictive, sports people can't stay off it even when they expect abuse. Yes, give them tools to block or filter abuse but they will still be tempted to read it because it is about them.

    There was a report on jockeys saying they'd be straight on TwiX after a bad ride. Bernard Ingham used to lament that John Major insisted on reading the newspapers that had turned on him, rather than the filtered press reports that Mrs Thatcher had favoured.
    The saddest and most difficult part of social media is that regardless of the views you hold, there will be a coterie of people on the internet who hate you and will go out of their way to make life difficult for you. ☹️☹️☹️☹️☹️
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    Have you got heatstroke? He’s dead.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,408
    DavidL said:

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    Have you got heatstroke? He’s dead.
    It’s gotten so hot two Hobbits have just walked into my room and thrown a ring in it.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,945
    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    DavidL said:

    Minutes of MPC refer to a “material further loosening in labour market conditions.”

    Or an increase in unemployment for those not as immune to such things. Another appalling euphemism from those who don’t feel the pain.

    Once again the Bank is too slow in cutting interest rates making growth harder. Add in the malign policies of Reeves and we are struggling to get any growth at all.

    Or they are clearing out the detritus of companies that should have gone long ago but are propped up by taxpayer subsidy. Think of it as Corporate Assisted Dying. Odd that people are in favour of humans being exited but will still pay through the nose for companies that should have gone long ago.

    Universal Credit says 38% of the 6.3mn UC claimants have jobs. That's a lot of subsidised employment.
    Which would those be? There may have been many in the 1970s, there haven't been since Thatcher, Major and Cameron privatised most nationalised industry and even the bailed out banks have largely returned to the public sector.

    Better getting people some work, even if subsidised, than have them sitting at home all day on benefits if of working age
    But is it?

    I think that one of Britain's problems is that we have too many people doing jobs that don't add that much to the national wealth, and so the only way to keep things moving is to import a load of "guest workers". I don't have a problem with that, but plenty do.

    Employing people in the UK is probably too cheap and too easy right now, which is why employers can get away with using staff in shoddy, inefficient ways.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,737
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    I once watched a demo of the fire brigade dismantling a car. Very impressed and lots of stuff I hadn't thought of. Not much left of the car afterwards.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,680
    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    I once watched a demo of the fire brigade dismantling a car. Very impressed and lots of stuff I hadn't thought of. Not much left of the car afterwards.
    Parking in Liverpool achieves much the same results.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    DavidL said:

    Minutes of MPC refer to a “material further loosening in labour market conditions.”

    Or an increase in unemployment for those not as immune to such things. Another appalling euphemism from those who don’t feel the pain.

    Once again the Bank is too slow in cutting interest rates making growth harder. Add in the malign policies of Reeves and we are struggling to get any growth at all.

    Too slow? With services inflation at 4.7% and regular pay growth at 5%...
    We need growth. Lots of growth. (And inflating away some of our unsustainable debt mountain is not the worst option either but we have to pretend that we don’t approve of that.)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,917
    Is BRACE the appropriate response?

    @JenniferJJacobs

    NEW: Trump has been briefed on both the risks and the benefits of bombing Fordo, Iran's most heavily secured nuclear facility, and his mindset is that disabling it is necessary because of the risk of weapons being produced in a relatively short period of time, sources say.

    @tanyanoury

    Spotted: CIA Director John Ratcliffe en route to the West Wing for a meeting with President Trump and his national security advisers in the Situation Room.

    @JenniferJJacobs

    Trump's national security adviser/secretary of State is meeting with UK's foreign secretary today, @SecRubio is talking at 2 pm at the White House with @DavidLammy
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,945

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    You think you have problems? I've got an interview tomorrow and I don't think I can get out of wearing a charcoal grey suit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,408
    Isn't this line getting a bit ... senile ?

    Trump on declining GDP: You probably saw some numbers today. I have to start off by saying that's Biden, not Trump. Because we came in on January -- these are quarterly numbers.
    https://x.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1935700424134132022
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,175

    rcs1000 said:

    I think the population should be allowed to vote on the voluntary euthanizing of politicians. And when I say "voluntary", I mean it's voluntary for the population, not the poltician.

    It would really concentrate the minds of politicians if they knew they were just a simple vote away from the needle.

    Is that why there is such strict gun control in the United States?
    In one science fiction series, on the planet New Texas, shooting a lawyer or politician was automatically classed as self defence.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    Scott_xP said:

    Is BRACE the appropriate response?

    @JenniferJJacobs

    NEW: Trump has been briefed on both the risks and the benefits of bombing Fordo, Iran's most heavily secured nuclear facility, and his mindset is that disabling it is necessary because of the risk of weapons being produced in a relatively short period of time, sources say.

    @tanyanoury

    Spotted: CIA Director John Ratcliffe en route to the West Wing for a meeting with President Trump and his national security advisers in the Situation Room.

    @JenniferJJacobs

    Trump's national security adviser/secretary of State is meeting with UK's foreign secretary today, @SecRubio is talking at 2 pm at the White House with @DavidLammy

    Brace is always the appropriate response
    BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,669
    edited June 19
    Omnium said:

    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    I once watched a demo of the fire brigade dismantling a car. Very impressed and lots of stuff I hadn't thought of. Not much left of the car afterwards.
    Parking in Liverpool achieves much the same results.
    Birmingham is the new hotspot for finding half your car has been liberated.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,949

    TOPPING said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    Utterly pathetic response from the UK and EU.
    Talking to Iran will embolden them to dig in
    Ex-head of MI6 this morning said a negotiated solution would not be possible as no one should or would believe the Iranians would negotiate in good faith.

    And there was a good case for the US to bomb the facility.

    But of course what would he know.
    We've spent at least a couple of decades trying to divert North Korea and Iran from building a bomb. We failed in NK's case, and Iran has shown very poor faith.

    Does anyone (aside from @Roger) believe that Iran doesn't want to build a nuclear weapon?
    I think that, for many years, Iran has not wanted to build a nuclear weapon, but has wanted to be close to be able to build a nuclear weapon. That almost zone has worked well for them. As @rcs1000 suggests, are actions now pushing them (and indeed other countries) into wanting a nuclear weapon now?
    Or Iran have been trying for the bomb, and international actions have stayed their hand.

    Why do so many on the left - such as you - give the Iranian regime so much good faith?

    The event that really will convince countries to go for the bomb is Russia vs Ukraine. They will see that Ukraine gave up nukes, and Russia is successfully using the threat of nukes to get their ow way. The American response - and I include Biden in this - is utterly counter-productive in the long run.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,246
    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    Utterly pathetic response from the UK and EU.
    Talking to Iran will embolden them to dig in
    Ex-head of MI6 this morning said a negotiated solution would not be possible as no one should or would believe the Iranians would negotiate in good faith.

    And there was a good case for the US to bomb the facility.

    But of course what would he know.
    Oh, there's a perfectly good reason to try and stop Iran getting nuclear capability.

    The problem is that every time you bomb them, you make it even more clear to the Iranian leadership that they need nuclear weapons, because that's the only way to ensure that you don't get bombed again in the future.

    So, the question becomes, is it possible to permanently prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons? Or are we just slowing them down.

    My gut is that we're doing the second.
    Of course neither of us know the process of making a nuclear bomb so I couldn't comment (while not dismissing your gut).

    But if every five years they are put back five years I can live with that and, more importantly, is worth doing.

    For some unknown reason I was listening to a bit of James O'Brien this morning and he was wittering on about MAD and how Iran wouldn't bomb Israel even with a nuke because it would invite retaliation.

    Perhaps ignoring the well documented difference in approach to dying for your cause between some elements of Islam (those in charge for example) and the West.
    Making a nuclear bomb is not complicated, assuming you have enough enriched uranium.

    Ultimately, you need about 40kg of 80+% enriched U235, and some shaped explosive charges.

    It really isn't beyond the ability of any middle income country.

    The difficult bit is enriching the uranium, which requires centrifuges to seperate the lighter uranium isotopes from the heavier ones. You need hundreds of the buggers, each of which enriches a bit of uranium by just a few percent.

    Messing with the centrifuges has been a core tenet of Israeli and US actions for two decades (see Stuxnet).

    But the fundamental problem is that Iran keeps adding to it stockpile of enriched Uranium. If you believe the Israelis, they now have more than 400kg of 60+% enriched uranium. That's not enriched enough for a bomb*, but it's not far off.

    And unless you actually deplete the amount of enriched uranium, then you never really push them back in time. I guess that's my issue: how do we reduce the amount of enriched uranium they have, because if we don't reduce that, then all we're doing is hoping and praying for regime change before they get those 40kg of 80+% enriched uranium.

    * @Malmesbury notes it is enough to achieve a chain reaction, but the yields would be very low compared to an 80+% bomb.
    I suppose the question is (how) has their capability changed over the years. Assuming it is simple to do as per your description, what has changed now such that there is a need to inhibit it big style. Have they quietly been centrifuging away while everyone was diverted with Hamas/Hezbollah. And what do we know there were at five, 10 years ago, etc.

    Questions, questions...
    According to Israeli intelligence, who I grant you are not entirely impartial, Iran has increased their stockpile of 60+% enriched uranium from about 200kg to more than 400kg in the last year. This probably means that at least a portion of this (10%?) is going to be 80+% enriched.

    Israel's primary goal is going to be destroying - or damaging beyond repair - the centrifuges. And I suspect they will be successful at achieving this goal. The issue is that Iran will still have more than 400kg of 60+% uranium, which is twice as much as they had at the beginning of the year.

    To actually remove or reduce or place beyond use in some way the enriched uranium is what's difficult, and I can't see how Israel or the US can do it without actually committing boots on the ground.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,945
    Nigelb said:

    Isn't this line getting a bit ... senile ?

    Trump on declining GDP: You probably saw some numbers today. I have to start off by saying that's Biden, not Trump. Because we came in on January -- these are quarterly numbers.
    https://x.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1935700424134132022

    Not possible. Biden is the only senile man to get within a ten mile radius of the White House ever, which is why Biden lost so badly last November.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,669
    Scott_xP said:

    Is BRACE the appropriate response?

    @JenniferJJacobs

    NEW: Trump has been briefed on both the risks and the benefits of bombing Fordo, Iran's most heavily secured nuclear facility, and his mindset is that disabling it is necessary because of the risk of weapons being produced in a relatively short period of time, sources say.

    @tanyanoury

    Spotted: CIA Director John Ratcliffe en route to the West Wing for a meeting with President Trump and his national security advisers in the Situation Room.

    @JenniferJJacobs

    Trump's national security adviser/secretary of State is meeting with UK's foreign secretary today, @SecRubio is talking at 2 pm at the White House with @DavidLammy

    Its bloody hot in my bunker....could they possibly hold off until next week.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,589

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    The Jubilee Line is ... interesting.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    You think you have problems? I've got an interview tomorrow and I don't think I can get out of wearing a charcoal grey suit.
    Wimp. Just finished a High Court case wearing wig, tails, waist coat, woollen trousers and a bow tie.
    Now that was warm.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,246

    TOPPING said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    Utterly pathetic response from the UK and EU.
    Talking to Iran will embolden them to dig in
    Ex-head of MI6 this morning said a negotiated solution would not be possible as no one should or would believe the Iranians would negotiate in good faith.

    And there was a good case for the US to bomb the facility.

    But of course what would he know.
    We've spent at least a couple of decades trying to divert North Korea and Iran from building a bomb. We failed in NK's case, and Iran has shown very poor faith.

    Does anyone (aside from @Roger) believe that Iran doesn't want to build a nuclear weapon?
    I think that, for many years, Iran has not wanted to build a nuclear weapon, but has wanted to be close to be able to build a nuclear weapon. That almost zone has worked well for them. As @rcs1000 suggests, are actions now pushing them (and indeed other countries) into wanting a nuclear weapon now?
    Or Iran have been trying for the bomb, and international actions have stayed their hand.

    Why do so many on the left - such as you - give the Iranian regime so much good faith?

    The event that really will convince countries to go for the bomb is Russia vs Ukraine. They will see that Ukraine gave up nukes, and Russia is successfully using the threat of nukes to get their ow way. The American response - and I include Biden in this - is utterly counter-productive in the long run.
    Yep: we are almost certainly heading into a period of nuclear proliferation. And - as you say - the proximate cause was the invasion of Ukraine by Russia.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,196
    edited June 19

    CatMan said:

    Find Out Now for this week
    Ref 31 (+1)
    Lab 23 (-1)
    Con 16 (=)
    LD 12 (-1)
    Green 11 (=)

    That Green score is insane
    The LDs seem to be dropping back a little lately to where they were pre Local Elections perhaps, opinium have them below their GE 24 score too .
    Tories unmoved with FoN since 8 May. Do they actually change their panel??


    Labour seems to be picking up a bit.
    Reform and LDs topping out?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,246

    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Abortion is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice.
    Banning things you don't approve of leads to all manner of negative outcomes.
    Many of which you may approve of even less.

    The goal of a civilized society should be to make abortion unnecessary.

    It is a terrible shame that many of the opponents of abortion are also so vehmently against -say- sex education or support for single parents.
    A goal of a civilised society should ne to allow people to have full control over their fertility. Abortion is, with current technology, a necessary part of achieving that aim.
    What possible technology could supersede the need for abortion?
    The condom?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,589
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If you want cooler weather St Andrews in Scotland is often a good bet. Funny because it's south of places that are often warmer like Elgin.

    I grew up in St Andrews and can confirm this. There were vanishingly few genuinely hot days grwing up. The wind blows in from the North Sea and if you get a warm day it often precipitates a haar (sea mist) the next day. I still marvel at London's tropical climate.
    I've only been there once, between two of the lockdown periods when we weren't allowed to visit the botanical gardens but were allowed to go in shops as long as had a mask on, which seems like a bizarre combination now of course.
    That's a shame, the botanical gardens are lovely.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,834
    maxh said:

    dixiedean said:

    Abortion is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice.
    Banning things you don't approve of leads to all manner of negative outcomes.
    Many of which you may approve of even less.

    Early abortion (which is a large majority of all abortion) is not a bad thing. It is a neutral thing. It is a normal part of the healthcare choices available to women.
    Do you really mean that?
    Abortion is absolutely shit for the woman. Some bounce back from it okay, but for many it is a trauma that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.
    I'm not for a minute arguing against it, but it's not a neutral thing in any way.
    Large numbers of women have early abortions and are not traumatised. About one in three women in the UK have an abortion at some point. One in three women are not deeply traumatised. The earlier an abortion is, the less traumatic it usually is. Pharmaceutical abortions are less traumatic. We should make the experience less traumatic for women by improving techniques and making choices easier. We can also not say things like, "Abortion is in principle a bad thing" or "Abortion is absolutely shit for the woman". Abortion can be traumatic and we should provide support for those women in those circumstances who have that experience. Abortion doesn't have to be traumatic.

    If I'm not getting to much into semantics, we also need to consider what makes something a "bad thing" or a "neutral thing". An appendectomy is an unpleasant experience. We should aim to avoid appendectomies. But if you need an appendectomy, then it's the right thing to do. Are appendectomies a "bad thing"? Or are they a neutral thing that are always going to be necessary and useful in some situations, because that's just how biology works? No-one goes around declaring, "Appendectomy is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice." That's arguably correct, but it's kind of a silly thing to say. We don't moralise appendectomies, and we shouldn't moralise early abortion.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    Its all a movie of course the will he won't he stuff. The Israeli guy told us earlier in the week about the Thursday and Friday stuff making the pagers look old school. Its going down tonight imo and has been for some time.

    I have been wrong before
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,408

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    You think you have problems? I've got an interview tomorrow and I don't think I can get out of wearing a charcoal grey suit.
    WFH has so many advantages.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091
    Great, let’s legislate based on public opinion.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,408

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    The Jubilee Line is ... interesting.
    I feel your pain.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,621

    TOPPING said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    Utterly pathetic response from the UK and EU.
    Talking to Iran will embolden them to dig in
    Ex-head of MI6 this morning said a negotiated solution would not be possible as no one should or would believe the Iranians would negotiate in good faith.

    And there was a good case for the US to bomb the facility.

    But of course what would he know.
    We've spent at least a couple of decades trying to divert North Korea and Iran from building a bomb. We failed in NK's case, and Iran has shown very poor faith.

    Does anyone (aside from @Roger) believe that Iran doesn't want to build a nuclear weapon?
    I think that, for many years, Iran has not wanted to build a nuclear weapon, but has wanted to be close to be able to build a nuclear weapon. That almost zone has worked well for them. As @rcs1000 suggests, are actions now pushing them (and indeed other countries) into wanting a nuclear weapon now?
    Or Iran have been trying for the bomb, and international actions have stayed their hand.

    Why do so many on the left - such as you - give the Iranian regime so much good faith?

    The event that really will convince countries to go for the bomb is Russia vs Ukraine. They will see that Ukraine gave up nukes, and Russia is successfully using the threat of nukes to get their ow way. The American response - and I include Biden in this - is utterly counter-productive in the long run.
    Israel hasn't signed the NPT either (and neither have India or Pakistan!).
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091
    Climate ‘misinformation’ is making the ‘crisis’ worse claim people whose livelihoods are tied to it.

    The solution.

    Criminalise views they don’t like.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/jun/19/climate-misinformation-turning-crisis-into-catastrophe-ipie-report
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,175
    edited June 19
    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    Utterly pathetic response from the UK and EU.
    Talking to Iran will embolden them to dig in
    Ex-head of MI6 this morning said a negotiated solution would not be possible as no one should or would believe the Iranians would negotiate in good faith.

    And there was a good case for the US to bomb the facility.

    But of course what would he know.
    Oh, there's a perfectly good reason to try and stop Iran getting nuclear capability.

    The problem is that every time you bomb them, you make it even more clear to the Iranian leadership that they need nuclear weapons, because that's the only way to ensure that you don't get bombed again in the future.

    So, the question becomes, is it possible to permanently prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons? Or are we just slowing them down.

    My gut is that we're doing the second.
    Of course neither of us know the process of making a nuclear bomb so I couldn't comment (while not dismissing your gut).

    But if every five years they are put back five years I can live with that and, more importantly, is worth doing.

    For some unknown reason I was listening to a bit of James O'Brien this morning and he was wittering on about MAD and how Iran wouldn't bomb Israel even with a nuke because it would invite retaliation.

    Perhaps ignoring the well documented difference in approach to dying for your cause between some elements of Islam (those in charge for example) and the West.
    Hmm. Making a simple nuclear bomb is actually very easy. In fact you can look it up on the internet. Wikipedia has the designs for the two used in WW2 and that uranium bomb is very simple.The Plutonium bomb was more complicated.

    Now getting enriched uranium, that is another matter. That is the difficult bit. And then you need some way of delivering it.
    Well you can't say "oh it's very easy" but this bit is very difficult. Because without "this bit" then you can't do it.
    You said @rcs1000 probably didn't know the process. I was just pointing out he probably did because it isn't difficult.

    And the difficult bit isn't lack of knowledge it is the resources neede to produce the fuel.

    Your argument is like saying you don't know how to build a car because drilling for oil and turning into petrol is difficult.

    PS I couldn't do it, but then I can't put a bird box on a wall.
    I could build a Hiroshima style gun-type weapon, given the fissile material, in a hobby workshop. Little Boy way hilariously over engineered, in the end. Some steel pipe and some gunpowder pretty much.

    An isotopic separation plant, on the scale you need, costs hundreds of millions to billions.

    Edit: Hilarious but true story. The IWM had a Little Boy in their collection. For many years, it wasn’t noticed that it was complete, apart from fissile material and explosives. Gun, reflector, the works.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,917
    Carney and Trump are about to hold rival press conferences
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,179

    The half dozen most prolific PB posters don't agree with the assisted dying bill. That is the only opinion that counts.

    Wait until you see the abortion polling…

    MPs are set to vote next week to decriminalise abortions that take place outside of set rules - in 2023 we found that 52% of Britons agreed that women should not face criminal prosecution in such cases

    Results link in next tweet


    https://x.com/yougov/status/1932705753560646106?s=61&t=c6bcp0cjChLfQN5Tc8A_6g
    Only 17% think abortion should be allowed after 17 weeks for anyone who wants it however
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610
    Scott_xP said:

    Is BRACE the appropriate response?

    @JenniferJJacobs

    NEW: Trump has been briefed on both the risks and the benefits of bombing Fordo, Iran's most heavily secured nuclear facility, and his mindset is that disabling it is necessary because of the risk of weapons being produced in a relatively short period of time, sources say.

    @tanyanoury

    Spotted: CIA Director John Ratcliffe en route to the West Wing for a meeting with President Trump and his national security advisers in the Situation Room.

    @JenniferJJacobs

    Trump's national security adviser/secretary of State is meeting with UK's foreign secretary today, @SecRubio is talking at 2 pm at the White House with @DavidLammy

    I think TACO will prevail. Thankfully in this case.

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,589

    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Abortion is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice.
    Banning things you don't approve of leads to all manner of negative outcomes.
    Many of which you may approve of even less.

    The goal of a civilized society should be to make abortion unnecessary.

    It is a terrible shame that many of the opponents of abortion are also so vehmently against -say- sex education or support for single parents.
    A goal of a civilised society should ne to allow people to have full control over their fertility. Abortion is, with current technology, a necessary part of achieving that aim.
    What possible technology could supersede the need for abortion?
    The atom bomb.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    Barnesian said:

    CatMan said:

    Find Out Now for this week
    Ref 31 (+1)
    Lab 23 (-1)
    Con 16 (=)
    LD 12 (-1)
    Green 11 (=)

    That Green score is insane
    The LDs seem to be dropping back a little lately to where they were pre Local Elections perhaps, opinium have them below their GE 24 score too .
    Tories unmoved with FoN since 8 May. Do they actually change their panel??


    Labour seems to be picking up a bit.
    Reform and LDs topping out?
    Yeah, seems fair. Be interested to see if Labour can hold that or start to fall away again
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    Scott_xP said:

    Carney and Trump are about to hold rival press conferences

    Elbows adjacent
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,775
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Abortion is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice.
    Banning things you don't approve of leads to all manner of negative outcomes.
    Many of which you may approve of even less.

    The goal of a civilized society should be to make abortion unnecessary.

    It is a terrible shame that many of the opponents of abortion are also so vehmently against -say- sex education or support for single parents.
    A goal of a civilised society should ne to allow people to have full control over their fertility. Abortion is, with current technology, a necessary part of achieving that aim.
    What possible technology could supersede the need for abortion?
    The condom?
    That’s already been invented, so presumably we can ban abortion now.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,589

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    The Jubilee Line is ... interesting.
    I feel your pain.
    Now on the gloriously air conditioned Windrush Line. Mmm.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,680
    Barnesian said:

    CatMan said:

    Find Out Now for this week
    Ref 31 (+1)
    Lab 23 (-1)
    Con 16 (=)
    LD 12 (-1)
    Green 11 (=)

    That Green score is insane
    The LDs seem to be dropping back a little lately to where they were pre Local Elections perhaps, opinium have them below their GE 24 score too .
    Tories unmoved with FoN since 8 May. Do they actually change their panel??


    Labour seems to be picking up a bit.
    Reform and LDs topping out?
    At some point there will be a 'not Reform' move. I've no idea when of course, but it does rather become interesting if it's before the next GE. Those votes obviously have to go somewhere. Obviously one looks at the LDs and thinks that they might be the lucky winners, but I think not. Very hard to see the Greens getting the nod either, although they have far more momentum than the LDs, but so does a low-velocity midge.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,621
    HYUFD said:

    Unsurprisingly though some political divide.

    80% of Labour voters and 72% of LDs back assisted dying, while only 64% of Reform voters and 71% of Conservative voters do.

    Interestingly only 64% of 18-24s in favour though
    https://yougov.co.uk/health/articles/52413-support-for-assisted-dying-unmoved-by-the-debate?utm_source=website_article&utm_medium=bluesky&utm_campaign=52413

    LDs and Tories very close then (72 v 71).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,179

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    France and Germany even did not back the US when it invaded Iraq in 2003.

    Starmer has no interest in getting involved in another Middle East quagmire after Blair's wars, if Israel and maybe the US too take out Iran's nuclear capability all to the good, if they don't and the region explodes further into conflict we will stay out of it.

    Trump has plenty of his own MAGA army who oppose intervention as well, as do most Democrats
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    edited June 19
    Iron Dome interception rate has dropped from 90% to 65% according to Israeli intelligence. That alone should tell us its going down (much much more than it is) soon and hard.
    Iran can carry on at current rate of firing for 5 months is the estimate
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    The Jubilee Line is ... interesting.
    You had me worried for a moment but the Test match is not until tomorrow and it’s in Leeds. Why would anyone be using the Jubilee Line ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,179

    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    DavidL said:

    Minutes of MPC refer to a “material further loosening in labour market conditions.”

    Or an increase in unemployment for those not as immune to such things. Another appalling euphemism from those who don’t feel the pain.

    Once again the Bank is too slow in cutting interest rates making growth harder. Add in the malign policies of Reeves and we are struggling to get any growth at all.

    Or they are clearing out the detritus of companies that should have gone long ago but are propped up by taxpayer subsidy. Think of it as Corporate Assisted Dying. Odd that people are in favour of humans being exited but will still pay through the nose for companies that should have gone long ago.

    Universal Credit says 38% of the 6.3mn UC claimants have jobs. That's a lot of subsidised employment.
    Which would those be? There may have been many in the 1970s, there haven't been since Thatcher, Major and Cameron privatised most nationalised industry and even the bailed out banks have largely returned to the public sector.

    Better getting people some work, even if subsidised, than have them sitting at home all day on benefits if of working age
    But is it?

    I think that one of Britain's problems is that we have too many people doing jobs that don't add that much to the national wealth, and so the only way to keep things moving is to import a load of "guest workers". I don't have a problem with that, but plenty do.

    Employing people in the UK is probably too cheap and too easy right now, which is why employers can get away with using staff in shoddy, inefficient ways.
    Sitting at home on benefits all day until the day you die is not good for your mental health or society at large. Most jobs don't add that much to national wealth anyway
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091

    Iron Dome interception rate has dropped from 90% to 65% according to Israeli intelligence. That alone should tell us its going down (much much more than it is) soon and hard.
    Iran can carry on at current rate of firing for 5 months is the estimate

    All good if it keeps Bibi out of stir.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    rcs1000 said:

    I think the population should be allowed to vote on the voluntary euthanizing of politicians. And when I say "voluntary", I mean it's voluntary for the population, not the poltician.

    It would really concentrate the minds of politicians if they knew they were just a simple vote away from the needle.

    Is that why there is such strict gun control in the United States?
    In one science fiction series, on the planet New Texas, shooting a lawyer or politician was automatically classed as self defence.
    That seems …harsh.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091
    HYUFD said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    France and Germany even did not back the US when it invaded Iraq in 2003.

    Starmer has no interest in getting involved in another Middle East quagmire after Blair's wars, if Israel and maybe the US too take out Iran's nuclear capability all to the good, if they don't and the region explodes further into conflict we will stay out of it.

    Trump has plenty of his own MAGA army who oppose intervention as well, as do most Democrats
    There’s also a chunk of Israeli society opposed.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,642
    Taz said:

    Great, let’s legislate based on public opinion.

    It's something to know that lawmakers are reasonably in tune with public opinion.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,175
    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    Utterly pathetic response from the UK and EU.
    Talking to Iran will embolden them to dig in
    Ex-head of MI6 this morning said a negotiated solution would not be possible as no one should or would believe the Iranians would negotiate in good faith.

    And there was a good case for the US to bomb the facility.

    But of course what would he know.
    Oh, there's a perfectly good reason to try and stop Iran getting nuclear capability.

    The problem is that every time you bomb them, you make it even more clear to the Iranian leadership that they need nuclear weapons, because that's the only way to ensure that you don't get bombed again in the future.

    So, the question becomes, is it possible to permanently prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons? Or are we just slowing them down.

    My gut is that we're doing the second.
    Of course neither of us know the process of making a nuclear bomb so I couldn't comment (while not dismissing your gut).

    But if every five years they are put back five years I can live with that and, more importantly, is worth doing.

    For some unknown reason I was listening to a bit of James O'Brien this morning and he was wittering on about MAD and how Iran wouldn't bomb Israel even with a nuke because it would invite retaliation.

    Perhaps ignoring the well documented difference in approach to dying for your cause between some elements of Islam (those in charge for example) and the West.
    Making a nuclear bomb is not complicated, assuming you have enough enriched uranium.

    Ultimately, you need about 40kg of 80+% enriched U235, and some shaped explosive charges.

    It really isn't beyond the ability of any middle income country.

    The difficult bit is enriching the uranium, which requires centrifuges to seperate the lighter uranium isotopes from the heavier ones. You need hundreds of the buggers, each of which enriches a bit of uranium by just a few percent.

    Messing with the centrifuges has been a core tenet of Israeli and US actions for two decades (see Stuxnet).

    But the fundamental problem is that Iran keeps adding to it stockpile of enriched Uranium. If you believe the Israelis, they now have more than 400kg of 60+% enriched uranium. That's not enriched enough for a bomb*, but it's not far off.

    And unless you actually deplete the amount of enriched uranium, then you never really push them back in time. I guess that's my issue: how do we reduce the amount of enriched uranium they have, because if we don't reduce that, then all we're doing is hoping and praying for regime change before they get those 40kg of 80+% enriched uranium.

    * @Malmesbury notes it is enough to achieve a chain reaction, but the yields would be very low compared to an 80+% bomb.
    I suppose the question is (how) has their capability changed over the years. Assuming it is simple to do as per your description, what has changed now such that there is a need to inhibit it big style. Have they quietly been centrifuging away while everyone was diverted with Hamas/Hezbollah. And what do we know there were at five, 10 years ago, etc.

    Questions, questions...
    According to Israeli intelligence, who I grant you are not entirely impartial, Iran has increased their stockpile of 60+% enriched uranium from about 200kg to more than 400kg in the last year. This probably means that at least a portion of this (10%?) is going to be 80+% enriched.

    Israel's primary goal is going to be destroying - or damaging beyond repair - the centrifuges. And I suspect they will be successful at achieving this goal. The issue is that Iran will still have more than 400kg of 60+% uranium, which is twice as much as they had at the beginning of the year.

    To actually remove or reduce or place beyond use in some way the enriched uranium is what's difficult, and I can't see how Israel or the US can do it without actually committing boots on the ground.
    Not to mention you can build a bomb with 32Kg of 60% enriched uranium. Your yield will suck - maybe a kiloton or two. But you could do a stager to compress a second *fission* stage. Which would yield lots.

    Enrichment Reflector
    (% U-235) None Nat. U Be
    10 cm 10 cm
    93.5 48.0/44.5 18.4/17.2 14.1/13.5
    90.0 53.8/48.4 20.8/18.7 15.5/14.0
    80.0 68. /54.4 26.5/21.2 19.3/15.4
    70.0 86. /60.2 33. /23.1 24.1/16.9
    60.0 120 /72. 45. /27. 32. /19.2
    50.0 170 /85. 65. /33. 45. /23.
    40.0 250 /100 100 /40. 70. /28.
    30.0 440 /132 190 /57. 130 /39.
    20.0 800 /160 370 /74 245 /49.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,621

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    The Jubilee Line is ... interesting.
    I feel your pain.
    Now on the gloriously air conditioned Windrush Line. Mmm.
    Lizzie Line for me (Romford to Ilford just now).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,669
    edited June 19
    A jailed Albanian drug dealer who took pictures of himself surrounded by £250,000 in cash has been allowed to remain in the UK.

    The Home Office and National Crime Agency (NCA) are seeking to deport Olsi Beheluli, 33, who was jailed for 11 years for his “senior role” in a heroin drug dealing ring.

    They say that Beheluli, who came to the UK as a nine-year-old, fraudulently secured British citizenship after claiming that he was not involved in criminality on his application form for naturalisation.

    The Home Office and NCA argued that only a senior person with a longstanding criminal history would be entrusted with such a high-value consignment of drugs. A lower-tier tribunal judge then rejected that argument on the basis that there was no surveillance or witness evidence to support it.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/19/albanian-drug-dealer-pictured-with-250k-cash-stay-britain/
  • ManOfGwentManOfGwent Posts: 183
    Taz said:

    Great, let’s legislate based on public opinion.

    The public is very keen on keeping the population down, in favour of abortion, assisted dying and capital punishment. Combined with the anti-immigration feeling I think we can clear out Britain of everybody before net zero is achieved
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,246
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think the population should be allowed to vote on the voluntary euthanizing of politicians. And when I say "voluntary", I mean it's voluntary for the population, not the poltician.

    It would really concentrate the minds of politicians if they knew they were just a simple vote away from the needle.

    Is that why there is such strict gun control in the United States?
    In one science fiction series, on the planet New Texas, shooting a lawyer or politician was automatically classed as self defence.
    That seems …harsh.
    I agree.

    I have no current plans to extend my voluntary euthansia plan beyond polticians and C list celebs.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think the population should be allowed to vote on the voluntary euthanizing of politicians. And when I say "voluntary", I mean it's voluntary for the population, not the poltician.

    It would really concentrate the minds of politicians if they knew they were just a simple vote away from the needle.

    Is that why there is such strict gun control in the United States?
    In one science fiction series, on the planet New Texas, shooting a lawyer or politician was automatically classed as self defence.
    That seems …harsh.
    I agree.

    I have no current plans to extend my voluntary euthansia plan beyond polticians and C list celebs.
    Thanks.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,206
    Nigelb said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate...

    You can't bomb the bastards - that would be an illegitimate target ?
    MODS – we need a groan button.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    The Jubilee Line is ... interesting.
    I feel your pain.
    Now on the gloriously air conditioned Windrush Line. Mmm.
    Lizzie Line for me (Romford to Ilford just now).
    Inverness to Perth for me. And I have to say it’s a glorious evening.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,949
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Abortion is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice.
    Banning things you don't approve of leads to all manner of negative outcomes.
    Many of which you may approve of even less.

    The goal of a civilized society should be to make abortion unnecessary.

    It is a terrible shame that many of the opponents of abortion are also so vehmently against -say- sex education or support for single parents.
    A goal of a civilised society should ne to allow people to have full control over their fertility. Abortion is, with current technology, a necessary part of achieving that aim.
    What possible technology could supersede the need for abortion?
    The condom?
    That’s already been invented, so presumably we can ban abortion now.
    My point is that the best way to reduce the number of abortions is to improve sex education and the availability of contraceptives. Yet all too often the opponents of abortion turn out to be opponents of measures that would actually reduce the prevalence of abortion.
    That's because it's not about morality or religion.

    It's about control of women.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,669
    edited June 19
    Totally O/T....I recently found out that a suspiciously high volume of the total US betting activity is directed towards Polish ping pong matches in random high school gyms between players nobody has ever heard of broadcast on shitty webcams.

    I am sure it is all on the up and up.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,621
    edited June 19

    rcs1000 said:

    I think the population should be allowed to vote on the voluntary euthanizing of politicians. And when I say "voluntary", I mean it's voluntary for the population, not the poltician.

    It would really concentrate the minds of politicians if they knew they were just a simple vote away from the needle.

    Is that why there is such strict gun control in the United States?
    In one science fiction series, on the planet New Texas, shooting a lawyer or politician was automatically classed as self defence.
    New Texas was the kids' cartoon "Bravestarr".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-79mLTQPLE
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,944
    edited June 19
    Nigelb said:

    Isn't this line getting a bit ... senile ?

    Trump on declining GDP: You probably saw some numbers today. I have to start off by saying that's Biden, not Trump. Because we came in on January -- these are quarterly numbers.
    https://x.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1935700424134132022

    Probably more just his standard nonsensical blustering.

    But he's not totally there either. Just because his voice and movement are not as frail as Biden does not mean he is not a very old man who is confused by the last thing he sees or reads.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,206
    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    I once watched a demo of the fire brigade dismantling a car. Very impressed and lots of stuff I hadn't thought of. Not much left of the car afterwards.
    Especially as supercars are hard to get in and out of even when uninjured, as any viewer of Top Gear/The Grand Tour will have noticed as Clarkson and chums reach 60.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,944

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    You think you have problems? I've got an interview tomorrow and I don't think I can get out of wearing a charcoal grey suit.
    WFH has so many advantages.
    Many offices are more air conditioned than many homes, however. So I'm wearing a lot less than the full suit I was at work, but am a lot less comfortable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,944
    edited June 19

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Abortion is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice.
    Banning things you don't approve of leads to all manner of negative outcomes.
    Many of which you may approve of even less.

    The goal of a civilized society should be to make abortion unnecessary.

    It is a terrible shame that many of the opponents of abortion are also so vehmently against -say- sex education or support for single parents.
    A goal of a civilised society should ne to allow people to have full control over their fertility. Abortion is, with current technology, a necessary part of achieving that aim.
    What possible technology could supersede the need for abortion?
    The condom?
    That’s already been invented, so presumably we can ban abortion now.
    My point is that the best way to reduce the number of abortions is to improve sex education and the availability of contraceptives. Yet all too often the opponents of abortion turn out to be opponents of measures that would actually reduce the prevalence of abortion.
    It's about control of women.
    Which, oddly enough, seems to be a big part of many traditional interpretations of religion. Probably just an instinctive impulse for old men.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,561
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is BRACE the appropriate response?

    @JenniferJJacobs

    NEW: Trump has been briefed on both the risks and the benefits of bombing Fordo, Iran's most heavily secured nuclear facility, and his mindset is that disabling it is necessary because of the risk of weapons being produced in a relatively short period of time, sources say.

    @tanyanoury

    Spotted: CIA Director John Ratcliffe en route to the West Wing for a meeting with President Trump and his national security advisers in the Situation Room.

    @JenniferJJacobs

    Trump's national security adviser/secretary of State is meeting with UK's foreign secretary today, @SecRubio is talking at 2 pm at the White House with @DavidLammy

    I think TACO will prevail. Thankfully in this case.

    He’s already talked himself into it. He’ll need some kind of deal to back down now, and the Iranians aren’t playing ball…
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,775
    edited June 19
    https://x.com/dodresponse/status/1935464496266465358

    Hegseth: “These are men who think they are women?”

    “They are women; I’m happy to educate you”

    Hegseth: "We’ve identified there’s mental health issues with that belief system"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,944
    Taz said:

    Great, let’s legislate based on public opinion.

    It always strikes me as odd the blindspot people in politics develop on when they must do whatever the public thinks, and when they should not.

    Obviously it's all still judgement calls, but the arguments about democratic will are not usually altered when people flip from saying it must be followed to, on another issue, they do not.
  • malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    The description of the car suggests an i8, which is pure electric. If so , I guess they're keen to make sure the battery doesn't ignite.
  • malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    The description of the car suggests an i8, which is pure electric. If so , I guess they're keen to make sure the battery doesn't ignite.
    Leon, can you Google BMW i8 and confirm if that's what it is ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is BRACE the appropriate response?

    @JenniferJJacobs

    NEW: Trump has been briefed on both the risks and the benefits of bombing Fordo, Iran's most heavily secured nuclear facility, and his mindset is that disabling it is necessary because of the risk of weapons being produced in a relatively short period of time, sources say.

    @tanyanoury

    Spotted: CIA Director John Ratcliffe en route to the West Wing for a meeting with President Trump and his national security advisers in the Situation Room.

    @JenniferJJacobs

    Trump's national security adviser/secretary of State is meeting with UK's foreign secretary today, @SecRubio is talking at 2 pm at the White House with @DavidLammy

    I think TACO will prevail. Thankfully in this case.

    He’s already talked himself into it. He’ll need some kind of deal to back down now, and the Iranians aren’t playing ball…
    You are making the mistake of assuming that he is rational and connected to the real world. He can persuade himself of anything and call it a triumph.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,457
    edited June 19

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    No because Trump is a reluctant player. There's Bibi, and the GOP hawks with Trump caught in the middle.

    As previous thread, my best guess is Trump signs off on a whole load of missiles to shore up Iron Dome, because even Netanyahu can see that blowing up a mountain will not stop missiles landing in Tel Aviv.
    It is still the case that Trump and Netanyahu will decide, without resorting to permission or consutation with European leaders
    Priti is up for the scrap.

    Farage and Ric Holden meanwhile have more important concerns to contend with. They are outraged that Starmer's woke Euro deal has scuppered the sale of English smoky bacon potato crisps to the EU.

    Where's Gary Lineker when you need him?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,065
    After enduring the heat in That London this afternoon, I then spent two and a half hours on a train with failed AC that was even hotter.

    Winter can't come soon enough!
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,814

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is BRACE the appropriate response?

    @JenniferJJacobs

    NEW: Trump has been briefed on both the risks and the benefits of bombing Fordo, Iran's most heavily secured nuclear facility, and his mindset is that disabling it is necessary because of the risk of weapons being produced in a relatively short period of time, sources say.

    @tanyanoury

    Spotted: CIA Director John Ratcliffe en route to the West Wing for a meeting with President Trump and his national security advisers in the Situation Room.

    @JenniferJJacobs

    Trump's national security adviser/secretary of State is meeting with UK's foreign secretary today, @SecRubio is talking at 2 pm at the White House with @DavidLammy

    I think TACO will prevail. Thankfully in this case.

    He’s already talked himself into it. He’ll need some kind of deal to back down now, and the Iranians aren’t playing ball…
    Destroying the nuclear plants would be the right thing to do.

    But unfortunately Trump doesn't believe in doing the right thing and TACO.

    Regrettably.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610
    DavidL said:

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    The Jubilee Line is ... interesting.
    I feel your pain.
    Now on the gloriously air conditioned Windrush Line. Mmm.
    Lizzie Line for me (Romford to Ilford just now).
    Inverness to Perth for me. And I have to say it’s a glorious evening.
    Just going through the Drumochter Pass. I mean, wow.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,944
    HYUFD said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    France and Germany even did not back the US when it invaded Iraq in 2003.

    Starmer has no interest in getting involved in another Middle East quagmire after Blair's wars, if Israel and maybe the US too take out Iran's nuclear capability all to the good, if they don't and the region explodes further into conflict we will stay out of it.

    Trump has plenty of his own MAGA army who oppose intervention as well, as do most Democrats
    Trump has amply demonstrated he can change the minds of his followers though (see Ukraine).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,775
    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 968
    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    DavidL said:

    Minutes of MPC refer to a “material further loosening in labour market conditions.”

    Or an increase in unemployment for those not as immune to such things. Another appalling euphemism from those who don’t feel the pain.

    Once again the Bank is too slow in cutting interest rates making growth harder. Add in the malign policies of Reeves and we are struggling to get any growth at all.

    Or they are clearing out the detritus of companies that should have gone long ago but are propped up by taxpayer subsidy. Think of it as Corporate Assisted Dying. Odd that people are in favour of humans being exited but will still pay through the nose for companies that should have gone long ago.

    Universal Credit says 38% of the 6.3mn UC claimants have jobs. That's a lot of subsidised employment.
    Which would those be? There may have been many in the 1970s, there haven't been since Thatcher, Major and Cameron privatised most nationalised industry and even the bailed out banks have largely returned to the private sector.

    Better getting people some work, even if subsidised, than have them sitting at home all day on benefits if of working age
    Very Victorian - how about investing to increase skills and output so there are decent wages? Other countries have done it. We are wedded to the Victorian idea of people should be grateful for a job, combined with using other peoples' money to pay for it. Lazy UK management again while the rest of the world gets on with building a future.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,944

    After enduring the heat in That London this afternoon, I then spent two and a half hours on a train with failed AC that was even hotter.

    Winter can't come soon enough!

    Many years ago on a rare outing to London all the trains from King's Cross got cancelled due to some emergency situation, at around 5pm in the middle of July. I was then stuck on the world's slowest outbound train literally standing room only (with no one able to get on at each subsequent stop) as every sweatted buckets about 1.5 inches from every other person.

    Not a pleasant time, today has been a breeze by comparison.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,737

    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    I once watched a demo of the fire brigade dismantling a car. Very impressed and lots of stuff I hadn't thought of. Not much left of the car afterwards.
    Especially as supercars are hard to get in and out of even when uninjured, as any viewer of Top Gear/The Grand Tour will have noticed as Clarkson and chums reach 60.
    There is often a knack. To get into my Cobra you put the wrong (far) leg in first, grip the roll bar, swing around so you are standing and slide down. Once you get used to it, it is very easy, but counter intuitive. I am 70 and can get into it easier than a modern car. Put the roof on it though and I am knackered.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,716
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    France and Germany even did not back the US when it invaded Iraq in 2003.

    Starmer has no interest in getting involved in another Middle East quagmire after Blair's wars, if Israel and maybe the US too take out Iran's nuclear capability all to the good, if they don't and the region explodes further into conflict we will stay out of it.

    Trump has plenty of his own MAGA army who oppose intervention as well, as do most Democrats
    Trump has amply demonstrated he can change the minds of his followers though (see Ukraine).
    Tariffs on, tariffs on. Both are genius moves according to the MAGAs. Best done a few times each per month apparently, as that will encourage production back to the mother country.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,065

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    The Jubilee Line is ... interesting.
    I feel your pain.
    Now on the gloriously air conditioned Windrush Line. Mmm.
    Lizzie Line for me (Romford to Ilford just now).
    Crossrail, for us Republicans.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,457

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    Stop sane-washing him.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    Law of opposites applies. Tonight, Tonight
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,814
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    France and Germany even did not back the US when it invaded Iraq in 2003.

    Starmer has no interest in getting involved in another Middle East quagmire after Blair's wars, if Israel and maybe the US too take out Iran's nuclear capability all to the good, if they don't and the region explodes further into conflict we will stay out of it.

    Trump has plenty of his own MAGA army who oppose intervention as well, as do most Democrats
    Trump has amply demonstrated he can change the minds of his followers though (see Ukraine).
    The problem is that applies to himself as much as anyone else.

    He knows that eliminating Iran's nuclear pretension is what he should do, but he can always give himself an excuse to TACO. 😞
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,814
    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    You beat me to it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,756

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,897

    https://x.com/dodresponse/status/1935464496266465358

    Hegseth: “These are men who think they are women?”

    “They are women; I’m happy to educate you”

    Hegseth: "We’ve identified there’s mental health issues with that belief system"

    Leaving aside whether Hegseth's verdict on the characteristics of trans people as a group is correct, his inference that those characteristics applied to those specific trans people as individuals was fallacious. It's known as the "ecological fallacy" and you can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,370

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    You beat me to it.
    I'm surprised it wasn't his preferred 90 days.
  • Old_HandOld_Hand Posts: 51
    Reverting to the headline, this is a quotation from Alcuin of York, who was chief advisor to the Emperor Charlemagne twelve centuries ago. He meant the phrase (which translates as "The voice of the people is the voice of God") ironically! He was arguing against any element of democracy in the decision-making of the Imperial Court.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610
    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,179
    edited June 19
    Battlebus said:

    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    DavidL said:

    Minutes of MPC refer to a “material further loosening in labour market conditions.”

    Or an increase in unemployment for those not as immune to such things. Another appalling euphemism from those who don’t feel the pain.

    Once again the Bank is too slow in cutting interest rates making growth harder. Add in the malign policies of Reeves and we are struggling to get any growth at all.

    Or they are clearing out the detritus of companies that should have gone long ago but are propped up by taxpayer subsidy. Think of it as Corporate Assisted Dying. Odd that people are in favour of humans being exited but will still pay through the nose for companies that should have gone long ago.

    Universal Credit says 38% of the 6.3mn UC claimants have jobs. That's a lot of subsidised employment.
    Which would those be? There may have been many in the 1970s, there haven't been since Thatcher, Major and Cameron privatised most nationalised industry and even the bailed out banks have largely returned to the private sector.

    Better getting people some work, even if subsidised, than have them sitting at home all day on benefits if of working age
    Very Victorian - how about investing to increase skills and output so there are decent wages? Other countries have done it. We are wedded to the Victorian idea of people should be grateful for a job, combined with using other peoples' money to pay for it. Lazy UK management again while the rest of the world gets on with building a future.
    You will find with a few exceptions like Germany and Japan the UK offers better apprenticeships than most of the world does. The UK also now has one of the highest minimum wages in the developed world
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    So bibi will provoke Iran into doing whatever needed to drag the US in. If this isn't just like last week's timing fake out and we go tonight/tomorrow(as i suspect we will)
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,680
    Old_Hand said:

    Reverting to the headline, this is a quotation from Alcuin of York, who was chief advisor to the Emperor Charlemagne twelve centuries ago. He meant the phrase (which translates as "The voice of the people is the voice of God") ironically! He was arguing against any element of democracy in the decision-making of the Imperial Court.

    Excellent!

    Although I see on wikipedia this

    "Writing in the early 12th century, William of Malmesbury refers to the saying as a "proverb"."

    Trouble! :)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    So bibi will provoke Iran into doing whatever needed to drag the US in. If this isn't just like last week's timing fake out and we go tonight/tomorrow(as i suspect we will)
    He’ll certainly try. But never, ever rely on Trump.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    FAFO Israel !!

  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    So bibi will provoke Iran into doing whatever needed to drag the US in. If this isn't just like last week's timing fake out and we go tonight/tomorrow(as i suspect we will)
    Wasn’t that the hospital bombing today ?
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