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Vox populi, vox Dei – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,226

    TimS said:

    On the weather, and this week’s mini-heatwave.

    It’s flowering time in England and Wales’s vineyards. Traditionally flowering happens during Wimbledon. At most Southern sites these days it’s a week or two before that, but on my cool terroir (I get huge diurnal ranges - hot days and cold nights) it’s still late June. I need 2 solid weeks of warm dry weather and that’ll mean good fruit set and a copious crop. Rain and cold during flowering means failed fruit set and low yields. It’s all very Clarkson’s farmish.

    What everyone forgets when they just say “pah, bit of warm weather nothing unusual” is that this is June. Most years our hottest weather happens in July or August. This week is nothing unusual by recent standards but pretty anomalous looking at June history.

    The most extreme June pattern ever was in 2019 - remember Provence hit 47C, smashing the French all time record - but thanks to a very unusual setup where a cool maritime layer undercut an extremely hot upper airmass, we didn’t have particularly hot weather. Just one day of 34C.

    I have a feeling that July will be 38-40 degree heatwave like three years ago.

    Brace
    We’ll see. The European monsoon will arrive soon (Wimbledon, Glastonbury, home test match series) and then we will miss the warm sunny days.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,188
    Apparently, Bibi having to postpone his son's wedding is just like the Blitz.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,719

    When I read this report I thought of Malmesbury and his Davey Crocket.

    Apparently American bunker buster can’t penetrate a bunker so deep, it needs softening up then hit with a tactical nuke

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say


    Have you not see Top Gun 2?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,518

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,343
    edited June 19

    When I read this report I thought of Malmesbury and his Davey Crocket.

    Apparently American bunker buster can’t penetrate a bunker so deep, it needs softening up then hit with a tactical nuke

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say

    Could there be much unintended consequences blowing up uranium enrichment complex, such as bigger bang and far more pollution than expected that puts USA in the worlds bad books?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,813

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Killing the head of Hamas who was operating in a tunnel underneath a hospital was an own goal?

    It's a view.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,237

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,669

    When I read this report I thought of Malmesbury and his Davey Crocket.

    Apparently American bunker buster can’t penetrate a bunker so deep, it needs softening up then hit with a tactical nuke

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say


    So there isn't an thermal exhaust port that leads directly to the main reactor?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,813

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
    Nah, much of the support for Israel, even after 7 October was only ever skin deep.

    After 7 October I said that Hamas needed to be eliminated and those who are today blaming Bibi or anything else were then saying "oh no, that can't happen". Even then.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,237

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Killing the head of Hamas who was operating in a tunnel underneath a hospital was an own goal?

    It's a view.
    Mass starvation and daily tank shots on starving people, certainly are.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,028
    Leon said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    The description of the car suggests an i8, which is pure electric. If so , I guess they're keen to make sure the battery doesn't ignite.
    Leon, can you Google BMW i8 and confirm if that's what it is ?
    The genius of PB’s collective wisdom

    Yes I just googled the BMW i8 and I’m 98% certain that’s what it was. Something like this

    https://www.carwow.co.uk/bmw/i8


    So it was the battery they were trying to dig out? In case it exploded?
    @twistedfirestopper3 please advise
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,356
    It's the Juneteenth holiday today here in the US. So here two appropriate songs from the '60s for a celebration:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy6AOGRsR80
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAFEWL0-1sc&pp=ygUYbWFyY2hpbmcgdGhyb3VnaCBnZW9yZ2lh
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,813

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Killing the head of Hamas who was operating in a tunnel underneath a hospital was an own goal?

    It's a view.
    Mass starvation and daily tank shots on starving people, certainly are.

    Israel are the ones sending aid to innocent Palestinians, not Hamas.

    Funny thing to do for a country supposedly engaging in mass starvation or genocide. 🙄
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,518

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
    “I think” is probably the most accurate part of that comment. And does an awful amount of lifting. “Average of global opinion” from social media? Really? Ok.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,343

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Have you not seen Genesis of the Daleks? Best Dr Who episodes ever.

    Spoiler. Merely delayed them. But politicians lives and careers only exist in short term anyway.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,403
    edited June 19
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    There's also the point that history doesn't end just because you take out a nuclear facility.
    It's entirely possible that Iran might subsequently procure a nuke from Pakistan, for example.

    I still don't quite understand (other than the obvious) why Trump 1 junked the Obama deal with Iran, rather than making a greater effort to reinforce it - which was a realistic possibility, and would have have enabled him to diss his predecessor just the same.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,456
    edited June 19
    ...

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
    Nah, much of the support for Israel, even after 7 October was only ever skin deep.

    After 7 October I said that Hamas needed to be eliminated and those who are today blaming Bibi or anything else were then saying "oh no, that can't happen". Even then.
    That's bollocks.

    October 7th was heartbreaking. Although soon after, many of us questioned why the IDF was keener to raze Gazan hospitals to the ground than throw Hamas grandees off Doha condominium balconies.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    Pops head out of the nuclear bomb shelter...if it safe to come out for a now? Its a bit toasty in there.

    Well I would say yes but have you seen my cricket predictions?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,028
    edited June 19
    What's interesting about this: the both side-ism that has screwed Gaza over the last year or so is now hurting Israel (a bit) in regard to Iran.

    So now our most ardent Israel supporters are making mirror arguments to those made by the pro-Palestine group. In the middle, people simply don't care any more and will not tolerate any action that puts Britain anywhere near Israel or the Middle East more generally.

    I think Israel (or more accurately, Netanyahu) could've conjured some European support for this had he not been such a bastard over Gaza. It doesn't help that he appears to be enjoying the whole thing.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,391
    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    Utterly pathetic response from the UK and EU.
    Talking to Iran will embolden them to dig in
    Ex-head of MI6 this morning said a negotiated solution would not be possible as no one should or would believe the Iranians would negotiate in good faith.

    And there was a good case for the US to bomb the facility.

    But of course what would he know.
    Oh, there's a perfectly good reason to try and stop Iran getting nuclear capability.

    The problem is that every time you bomb them, you make it even more clear to the Iranian leadership that they need nuclear weapons, because that's the only way they can ensure they don't get bombed again in the future.

    So, the question becomes, is it possible to permanently prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons? Or are we just slowing them down.

    My gut is that we're doing the second.
    Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

    "While you may only have delayed his return to power, it will merely take someone else who is prepared to fight what seems a losing battle next time – and if he is delayed again, and again, why, he may never return to power."
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,855
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    There's also the point that history doesn't end just because you take out a nuclear facility.
    It's entirely possible that Iran might subsequently procure a nuke from Pakistan, for example.

    I still don't quite understand (other than the obvious) why Trump 1 junked the Obama deal with Iran, rather than making a greater effort to reinforce it - which was a realistic possibility, and would have have enabled him to diss his predecessor just the same.
    Replace Trump in your mind's eye with "The Great Hannibal Lecter" ( Copyright DJT) exactly as portrayed in the film. Do any explanations come to mind?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,237

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
    “I think” is probably the most accurate part of that comment. And does an awful amount of lifting. “Average of global opinion” from social media? Really? Ok.
    X's algorithms have been skewed towards extremists, from around the world.

    Previously the islamist extremists' takes on Gaza were cancelled out by the gung-ho Americans' faction, for instance, but not so.much now. It's quite possible to discern broad shirts of international opinion even in a forum skewed towards activism.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    Vicky Foxcroft resigns as a whip over disability cuts
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,237
    Or even, broad shifts of international opinion !
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,620
    edited June 19
    DavidL said:

    Pops head out of the nuclear bomb shelter...if it safe to come out for a now? Its a bit toasty in there.

    Well I would say yes but have you seen my cricket predictions?
    "But we’re glad to say we’re in the UK
    West Indian batsmen can bat all day
    And if your stumps are found half way down the ground
    That means the West Indians are back in town"
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,518

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
    “I think” is probably the most accurate part of that comment. And does an awful amount of lifting. “Average of global opinion” from social media? Really? Ok.
    X's algorithms have been skewed towards extremists, from around the world.

    Previously the islamist extremists' takes on Gaza were cancelled out by the gung-ho Americans' faction, for instance, but not so.much now. It's quite possible to discern broad shirts of international opinion even in a forum skewed towards activism.
    Especially if you conveniently ignore any opinions to the contrary.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,620
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    There's also the point that history doesn't end just because you take out a nuclear facility.
    It's entirely possible that Iran might subsequently procure a nuke from Pakistan, for example.

    I still don't quite understand (other than the obvious) why Trump 1 junked the Obama deal with Iran, rather than making a greater effort to reinforce it - which was a realistic possibility, and would have have enabled him to diss his predecessor just the same.
    Replace Trump in your mind's eye with "The Great Hannibal Lecter" ( Copyright DJT) exactly as portrayed in the film. Do any explanations come to mind?
    "Brave MattW! You will let me know when those Dems stop screaming, won't you?"
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,226

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    I expect the bill to pass tomorrow, but am I correct that it will not come in for 4 years ?

    Also Beth Rigby of Sky on Iran:

    'I have just spoken to the French ambassador to the UK - who very rarely does anything on camera - to talk about the need for de-escalation in the Israel-Iran conflict amid growing concerns the US will get involved.

    It's a moment of great jeopardy for all European allies, our prime minister, and all European leaders pushing for de-escalation.

    The message from the French ambassador today is to step back and de-escalate.

    There will be talks in Geneva tomorrow between Iranian officials and Europe's leading politicians - David Lammy, as well as the foreign ministers of France, Germany, although no country formally confirming.

    It is all an attempt to find a solution.

    The big question is: will Donald Trump listen?'


    Has there ever been a time when the leaders of Europe, including Starmer have ever looked so out of their depths and impotent ?

    The only players in this are Trump and Netanyahu and the danger for these leaders is they will look utterly helpless if US and Israel do take out
    Iran's nuclear capability

    Utterly pathetic response from the UK and EU.
    Talking to Iran will embolden them to dig in
    Ex-head of MI6 this morning said a negotiated solution would not be possible as no one should or would believe the Iranians would negotiate in good faith.

    And there was a good case for the US to bomb the facility.

    But of course what would he know.
    Oh, there's a perfectly good reason to try and stop Iran getting nuclear capability.

    The problem is that every time you bomb them, you make it even more clear to the Iranian leadership that they need nuclear weapons, because that's the only way they can ensure they don't get bombed again in the future.

    So, the question becomes, is it possible to permanently prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons? Or are we just slowing them down.

    My gut is that we're doing the second.
    Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

    "While you may only have delayed his return to power, it will merely take someone else who is prepared to fight what seems a losing battle next time – and if he is delayed again, and again, why, he may never return to power."
    I had no idea it was about Boris Johnson.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,237

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
    “I think” is probably the most accurate part of that comment. And does an awful amount of lifting. “Average of global opinion” from social media? Really? Ok.
    X's algorithms have been skewed towards extremists, from around the world.

    Previously the islamist extremists' takes on Gaza were cancelled out by the gung-ho Americans' faction, for instance, but not so.much now. It's quite possible to discern broad shirts of international opinion even in a forum skewed towards activism.
    Especially if you conveniently ignore any opinions to the contrary.

    I can say I won't convince.you, but I certainly don't have any particular reason to ignore the proportion of contrary posts, and I'd like to see the appallingly regime in Iran gone, as much as any genuine liberal.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,368
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,237
    Appalling, rather than appallingly there, thanks again to autocoreect.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,403
    Bibi is suffering too.

    Netanyahu stuns Israelis by describing ‘personal cost’ of Iran war - postponing son’s wedding
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/netanyahu-son-wedding-comments-israel-backlash
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,011
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    There's also the point that history doesn't end just because you take out a nuclear facility.
    It's entirely possible that Iran might subsequently procure a nuke from Pakistan, for example.

    I still don't quite understand (other than the obvious) why Trump 1 junked the Obama deal with Iran, rather than making a greater effort to reinforce it - which was a realistic possibility, and would have have enabled him to diss his predecessor just the same.
    Because he doesn’t think that far ahead.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,943

    TimS said:

    On the weather, and this week’s mini-heatwave.

    It’s flowering time in England and Wales’s vineyards. Traditionally flowering happens during Wimbledon. At most Southern sites these days it’s a week or two before that, but on my cool terroir (I get huge diurnal ranges - hot days and cold nights) it’s still late June. I need 2 solid weeks of warm dry weather and that’ll mean good fruit set and a copious crop. Rain and cold during flowering means failed fruit set and low yields. It’s all very Clarkson’s farmish.

    What everyone forgets when they just say “pah, bit of warm weather nothing unusual” is that this is June. Most years our hottest weather happens in July or August. This week is nothing unusual by recent standards but pretty anomalous looking at June history.

    The most extreme June pattern ever was in 2019 - remember Provence hit 47C, smashing the French all time record - but thanks to a very unusual setup where a cool maritime layer undercut an extremely hot upper airmass, we didn’t have particularly hot weather. Just one day of 34C.

    I have a feeling that July will be 38-40 degree heatwave like three years ago.

    Brace
    We’ll see. The European monsoon will arrive soon (Wimbledon, Glastonbury, home test match series) and then we will miss the warm sunny days.
    I've taken two weeks off in the middle of July, so expect cold, wind, sleet, possibly snow.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,881
    If trump has succeeded in getting them to decommission the Fordow site and hand over the 60% enriched uranium, then chapeau. Otherwise, taco.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,897
    edited June 19

    https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1935756709298888836

    Has Great Britain become the "Yookay"?

    "What we are living through today, in a phrase, is an unprecedented break in national continuity. As a country we are disconnecting from the old Britain."

    He has a point, but the land he mourns is not Britain but England. If you look at footage of the 1966 World Cup, the flags being waved were the Union Jack, but by Euro 96 ("thirty years of hurt") the flags were England flags.

    The point is quite nostalgic, as derision of "Yookay" occurred in 1980s novels. As for his use of Google NGrams, you'd have to combine that with the British Newspaper Archive, because they didn't really have t'internet in England until the mid-1990s.

    It's a bit of a sad article in that respect. The errors could have been easily corrected, but they were not. It reminds me of the TL:DR video a few years back which presented the England and Wales census as a UK census...which is stupid (the Scots and NI had either not released theirs and/or had not been integrated into the whole-UK figures)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,620
    edited June 19
    viewcode said:

    https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1935756709298888836

    Has Great Britain become the "Yookay"?

    "What we are living through today, in a phrase, is an unprecedented break in national continuity. As a country we are disconnecting from the old Britain."

    He has a point, but the land he mourns is not Britain but England. If you look at footage of the 1966 World Cup, the flags being waved were the Union Jack, but by Euro 96 ("thirty years of hurt") the flags were England flags.

    The point is quite nostalgic, as derision of "Yookay" occurred in 1980s novels. As for his use of Google NGrams, you'd have to combine that with the British Newspaper Archive, because they didn't really have t'internet in England until the mid-1990s.

    It's a bit of a sad article in that respect. The errors could have been easily corrected, but they were not. It reminds me of the TL:DR video a few years back which presented the England and Wales census as a UK census...which is stupid (the Scots and NI had either not released theirs and/or had not been integrated into the whole-UK figures)
    Narrator: England, Wales, and Northern Ireland all had their Census in 2021. Only Scotland had their Census in 2022.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,518

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
    “I think” is probably the most accurate part of that comment. And does an awful amount of lifting. “Average of global opinion” from social media? Really? Ok.
    X's algorithms have been skewed towards extremists, from around the world.

    Previously the islamist extremists' takes on Gaza were cancelled out by the gung-ho Americans' faction, for instance, but not so.much now. It's quite possible to discern broad shirts of international opinion even in a forum skewed towards activism.
    Especially if you conveniently ignore any opinions to the contrary.

    I can say I won't convince.you, but I certainly don't have any particular reason to ignore the proportion of contrary posts, and I'd like to see the appallingly regime in Iran gone, as much as any genuine liberal.
    Which is commendable and no one can really disagree with the sentiment. But seeing we all agree the regime is appalling for any number of reasons, isn’t not better that appalling regime doesn’t have use of say, nuclear weapons. Now call me naive, and I’m quite happy to admit that, but stopping them from getting and using nuclear weapons (And “using”includes the threat of “using”rather than the actual “using”) is rather preferable than them having them.
    And, forgive me again, but I’m sure a theocratic totalitarian state doesn’t react to memes or nasty things on Instagram telling them to not do something. Especially as they have, on numerous occasions called for the annihilation of the Israeli state. A democratic state happily inclusive of all the wondrous diverse identifies we all celebrate these days.

    So in essence: perhaps harsh language and a thoroughly disapproving tone will convince an appalling regime to stop? Or will a thorough thrashing (which they’re getting) do the trick?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,855
    edited June 19
    viewcode said:

    https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1935756709298888836

    Has Great Britain become the "Yookay"?

    "What we are living through today, in a phrase, is an unprecedented break in national continuity. As a country we are disconnecting from the old Britain."

    He has a point, but the land he mourns is not Britain but England. If you look at footage of the 1966 World Cup, the flags being waved were the Union Jack, but by Euro 96 ("thirty years of hurt") the flags were England flags.

    The point is quite nostalgic, as derision of "Yookay" occurred in 1980s novels. As for his use of Google NGrams, you'd have to combine that with the British Newspaper Archive, because they didn't really have t'internet in England until the mid-1990s.

    It's a bit of a sad article in that respect. The errors could have been easily corrected, but they were not. It reminds me of the TL:DR video a few years back which presented the England and Wales census as a UK census...which is stupid (the Scots and NI had either not released theirs and/or had not been integrated into the whole-UK figures)
    Frosty the No Man?

    I discovered recently that he was in the year above me at school (working by birth date). David Frost, Ed Davey and Ed Balls in successive years - is that a good average?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,766
    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1935756709298888836

    Has Great Britain become the "Yookay"?

    "What we are living through today, in a phrase, is an unprecedented break in national continuity. As a country we are disconnecting from the old Britain."

    He has a point, but the land he mourns is not Britain but England. If you look at footage of the 1966 World Cup, the flags being waved were the Union Jack, but by Euro 96 ("thirty years of hurt") the flags were England flags.

    The point is quite nostalgic, as derision of "Yookay" occurred in 1980s novels. As for his use of Google NGrams, you'd have to combine that with the British Newspaper Archive, because they didn't really have t'internet in England until the mid-1990s.

    It's a bit of a sad article in that respect. The errors could have been easily corrected, but they were not. It reminds me of the TL:DR video a few years back which presented the England and Wales census as a UK census...which is stupid (the Scots and NI had either not released theirs and/or had not been integrated into the whole-UK figures)
    Frosty the No Man?

    I discovered recently that he was in the year above me at school (working by birth date). David Frost, Ed Davey and Ed Balls in successive years - is that a good average?
    I have heard that nickname before - what did he say No to?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,226
    Shocking headline from the bbc…

    https://bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cly2zplnn1ko

    I had no idea there was a mind behind the Hundred…
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Have you not seen Genesis of the Daleks? Best Dr Who episodes ever.


    Now there’s a debate. Wouldn’t even make my top 10.

    For sheer fun and joy and locations I prefer Destiny over Genesis.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,403
    edited June 19
    In case anyone wants to fact check @Malmesbury , this is a good place to brush up on your fission engineering.

    Nuclear Technology, Volume 207, Issue sup1 (2021)
    https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/unct20/207/sup1
    Special issue on the Manhattan Project Nuclear Science and Technology Development at Los Alamos National Laboratory

    (An open access issue of the usually very much not open access journal.)
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091
    Nigelb said:

    Bibi is suffering too.

    Netanyahu stuns Israelis by describing ‘personal cost’ of Iran war - postponing son’s wedding
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/netanyahu-son-wedding-comments-israel-backlash

    Thoughts and prayers at this difficult time
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091

    Vicky Foxcroft resigns as a whip over disability cuts

    Who ?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,775

    Vicky Foxcroft resigns as a whip over disability cuts

    Will Angela Rayner make a move?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,855

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1935756709298888836

    Has Great Britain become the "Yookay"?

    "What we are living through today, in a phrase, is an unprecedented break in national continuity. As a country we are disconnecting from the old Britain."

    He has a point, but the land he mourns is not Britain but England. If you look at footage of the 1966 World Cup, the flags being waved were the Union Jack, but by Euro 96 ("thirty years of hurt") the flags were England flags.

    The point is quite nostalgic, as derision of "Yookay" occurred in 1980s novels. As for his use of Google NGrams, you'd have to combine that with the British Newspaper Archive, because they didn't really have t'internet in England until the mid-1990s.

    It's a bit of a sad article in that respect. The errors could have been easily corrected, but they were not. It reminds me of the TL:DR video a few years back which presented the England and Wales census as a UK census...which is stupid (the Scots and NI had either not released theirs and/or had not been integrated into the whole-UK figures)
    Frosty the No Man?

    I discovered recently that he was in the year above me at school (working by birth date). David Frost, Ed Davey and Ed Balls in successive years - is that a good average?
    I have heard that nickname before - what did he say No to?
    Some of the things that the EU wanted iirc (?). :smile:
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    Taz said:

    Vicky Foxcroft resigns as a whip over disability cuts

    Who ?
    Shes a government whip
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650

    Vicky Foxcroft resigns as a whip over disability cuts

    Will Angela Rayner make a move?
    Depends how many junior ministers resign over the cuts.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091

    Vicky Foxcroft resigns as a whip over disability cuts

    Will Angela Rayner make a move?
    On Foxcroft ?

    Hasn’t she got a partner already ?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,017
    Two weeks. How many coin tosses can one man achieve in that period to aid his decision making process?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,897
    edited June 19

    viewcode said:

    https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1935756709298888836

    Has Great Britain become the "Yookay"?

    "What we are living through today, in a phrase, is an unprecedented break in national continuity. As a country we are disconnecting from the old Britain."

    He has a point, but the land he mourns is not Britain but England. If you look at footage of the 1966 World Cup, the flags being waved were the Union Jack, but by Euro 96 ("thirty years of hurt") the flags were England flags.

    The point is quite nostalgic, as derision of "Yookay" occurred in 1980s novels. As for his use of Google NGrams, you'd have to combine that with the British Newspaper Archive, because they didn't really have t'internet in England until the mid-1990s.

    It's a bit of a sad article in that respect. The errors could have been easily corrected, but they were not. It reminds me of the TL:DR video a few years back which presented the England and Wales census as a UK census...which is stupid (the Scots and NI had either not released theirs and/or had not been integrated into the whole-UK figures)
    Narrator: England, Wales, and Northern Ireland all had their Census in 2021. Only Scotland had their Census in 2022.
    Tetchy Narrator.
    • ONS (Office for National Statistics) is the national statistical service of England and Wales. It is responsible for conducting the Census in England and Wales.
    • NRS (National Records of Scotland, formerly General Register Office for Scotland) is the national statistical service of Scotland. It is responsible for conducting the Census in Scotland
    • NISRA (Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency) is the national statistical service of Northern Ireland. It is responsible for conducting the Census in Northern Ireland.
    Still with me? OK, this is where it gets twisty.
    • ONS (Office for National Statistics) is also the national statistical service of the United Kingdom. It is responsible for conducting the Census in the United Kingdom. It does this by combining the numbers from ONS for England and Wales with the numbers from NRS for Scotland and NISRA for NI.
    So three offices covering four areas with four releases.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,744
    "Vicky Foxcroft 💙
    @vickyfoxcroft

    (1/2) With a heavy heart, I have written to the Prime Minister to tender my resignation as a whip.

    Whilst I will continue to support the government in delivering the change the country so desperately needs, I cannot vote in favour of the proposed reforms to disability benefits."

    https://x.com/vickyfoxcroft/status/1935781286305583373
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,237

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
    “I think” is probably the most accurate part of that comment. And does an awful amount of lifting. “Average of global opinion” from social media? Really? Ok.
    X's algorithms have been skewed towards extremists, from around the world.

    Previously the islamist extremists' takes on Gaza were cancelled out by the gung-ho Americans' faction, for instance, but not so.much now. It's quite possible to discern broad shirts of international opinion even in a forum skewed towards activism.
    Especially if you conveniently ignore any opinions to the contrary.

    I can say I won't convince.you, but I certainly don't have any particular reason to ignore the proportion of contrary posts, and I'd like to see the appallingly regime in Iran gone, as much as any genuine liberal.
    Which is commendable and no one can really disagree with the sentiment. But seeing we all agree the regime is appalling for any number of reasons, isn’t not better that appalling regime doesn’t have use of say, nuclear weapons. Now call me naive, and I’m quite happy to admit that, but stopping them from getting and using nuclear weapons (And “using”includes the threat of “using”rather than the actual “using”) is rather preferable than them having them.
    And, forgive me again, but I’m sure a theocratic totalitarian state doesn’t react to memes or nasty things on Instagram telling them to not do something. Especially as they have, on numerous occasions called for the annihilation of the Israeli state. A democratic state happily inclusive of all the wondrous diverse identifies we all celebrate these days.

    So in essence: perhaps harsh language and a thoroughly disapproving tone will convince an appalling regime to stop? Or will a thorough thrashing (which they’re getting) do the trick?
    Well, I think that depends on whether it's counter-productive or not. I think the most realistic positive outcome is a split in the clerical hierarchy or military, and I also have the sense that that may be made even more difficult with Americam intervention.

    One thing that really interests me, and has still gathered far too little attention, I think, is who the people on those three govt planes to Oman.were.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,611
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Bibi is suffering too.

    Netanyahu stuns Israelis by describing ‘personal cost’ of Iran war - postponing son’s wedding
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/netanyahu-son-wedding-comments-israel-backlash

    Thoughts and prayers at this difficult time
    Ironic that despite a policy of assassination of enemy leaders, the only Israeli PM to be assassinated was by an Israeli right wing nutter who achieved precisely what they wanted to
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,917
    @atrupar

    a reporter points out to Leavitt that Trump says something will happen in "two weeks" all the time and then it doesn't happen 🙃

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1935754821119676417
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,403
    Nigelb said:

    In case anyone wants to fact check @Malmesbury , this is a good place to brush up on your fission engineering.

    Nuclear Technology, Volume 207, Issue sup1 (2021)
    https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/unct20/207/sup1
    Special issue on the Manhattan Project Nuclear Science and Technology Development at Los Alamos National Laboratory

    (An open access issue of the usually very much not open access journal.)

    Recommended for those interested in the history.
    ..It is interesting to reflect on the different levels of understanding of atomic weapons physics–in Britain and the U.S., versus Germany–during the war. By the early 1940s, it was well understood in Britain and the U.S. that once a supercritical mass is assembled, the fission chain reaction leads to heating, explosion, and material expansion to the point that the assembly becomes subcritical. This is the heart of the physics embodied in the Frisch-Peierls, Pryce-Dirac, Serber, and Bethe-Feynman formulas. However, in contrast, Jeremy Bernstein’s fascinating 1996 book Hitler’s Uranium Club shows that Heisenberg and his team seemed not to understand this basic idea, thinking erroneously that an atomic bomb could work at 100% efficiency and fission all the nuclear material..
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,124
    viewcode said:

    https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1935756709298888836

    Has Great Britain become the "Yookay"?

    "What we are living through today, in a phrase, is an unprecedented break in national continuity. As a country we are disconnecting from the old Britain."

    He has a point, but the land he mourns is not Britain but England. If you look at footage of the 1966 World Cup, the flags being waved were the Union Jack, but by Euro 96 ("thirty years of hurt") the flags were England flags.

    The point is quite nostalgic, as derision of "Yookay" occurred in 1980s novels. As for his use of Google NGrams, you'd have to combine that with the British Newspaper Archive, because they didn't really have t'internet in England until the mid-1990s.

    It's a bit of a sad article in that respect. The errors could have been easily corrected, but they were not. It reminds me of the TL:DR video a few years back which presented the England and Wales census as a UK census...which is stupid (the Scots and NI had either not released theirs and/or had not been integrated into the whole-UK figures)
    Presumably the gist is: I bequeathed you all the gift of Brexit, but you've only gone and squandered it.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,518

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
    “I think” is probably the most accurate part of that comment. And does an awful amount of lifting. “Average of global opinion” from social media? Really? Ok.
    X's algorithms have been skewed towards extremists, from around the world.

    Previously the islamist extremists' takes on Gaza were cancelled out by the gung-ho Americans' faction, for instance, but not so.much now. It's quite possible to discern broad shirts of international opinion even in a forum skewed towards activism.
    Especially if you conveniently ignore any opinions to the contrary.

    I can say I won't convince.you, but I certainly don't have any particular reason to ignore the proportion of contrary posts, and I'd like to see the appallingly regime in Iran gone, as much as any genuine liberal.
    Which is commendable and no one can really disagree with the sentiment. But seeing we all agree the regime is appalling for any number of reasons, isn’t not better that appalling regime doesn’t have use of say, nuclear weapons. Now call me naive, and I’m quite happy to admit that, but stopping them from getting and using nuclear weapons (And “using”includes the threat of “using”rather than the actual “using”) is rather preferable than them having them.
    And, forgive me again, but I’m sure a theocratic totalitarian state doesn’t react to memes or nasty things on Instagram telling them to not do something. Especially as they have, on numerous occasions called for the annihilation of the Israeli state. A democratic state happily inclusive of all the wondrous diverse identifies we all celebrate these days.

    So in essence: perhaps harsh language and a thoroughly disapproving tone will convince an appalling regime to stop? Or will a thorough thrashing (which they’re getting) do the trick?
    Well, I think that depends on whether it's counter-productive or not. I think the most realistic positive outcome is a split in the clerical hierarchy or military, and I also have the sense that that may be made even more difficult with Americam intervention.

    One thing that really interests me, and has still gathered far too little attention, I think, is who the people on those three govt planes to Oman.were.
    The mullahs moving their p0rn collection to somewhere more conducive probably. Who cares?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,343
    https://news.sky.com/video/maga-civil-war-breaks-out-over-trumps-potential-decision-to-join-conflict-with-iran-13385679

    Does Donald Trump not have any MAGA stars on his side for his bombing of Iran? The whining lady in clip about deaths sounds just like a Corbynite Labour MP surrender monkey.

    Yes it effectively enters USA into war with Iran where everything it has in the region becomes a bonafide target with inevitable US deaths, But the most rabid isolationists must agree with necessary need for some wars now and then? Don’t they want friends and key interests around the world and help friends out and protect their own key interests abroad? Saudi Arabia are just as much under threat of Iranian nukes as Israel, can’t MAGA see this?

    Will MAGA just row in with support once Trump starts bombing?
    I expect so, and so will US opinion switcheroo as it rally’s to the flag. In fact, the boost Trumps Iran War gives him in the rally to the flag polling might gift him a bigger congress majority next year than it looks on current political narrative so far. And then MAGA will understand and thank him.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,855
    edited June 19
    Taz said:

    Vicky Foxcroft resigns as a whip over disability cuts

    Who ?
    Vicky Foxcroft is a Government Whip who was formerly Shadow Minister for Disabled People.

    She does not particularly lead with it, but she was diagnosed (latish in life) with rheumatoid arthritis in 2019 - so this would be quite a personal issue for her.

    I found her when I was looking for generally unacknowledged disabled MPs after the General Election who had actually said something in public at some stage.

    She did an interview about her experience with the Disabled and Proud podcast here:

    https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-impact-of-disability-on-politics-vicky/id1621152878?i=1000634071291
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,775
    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935738251836637487

    JUST IN - Israel expects a U.S. decision on joining Iran war within 24-48 hours — Times of Israel
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,226
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Have you not seen Genesis of the Daleks? Best Dr Who episodes ever.


    Now there’s a debate. Wouldn’t even make my top 10.

    For sheer fun and joy and locations I prefer Destiny over Genesis.
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Have you not seen Genesis of the Daleks? Best Dr Who episodes ever.


    Now there’s a debate. Wouldn’t even make my top 10.

    For sheer fun and joy and locations I prefer Destiny over Genesis.
    The one with the humanoid robots? I do sometimes compile the list of one episode/story for each doctor that best typifies their time and/or I’d the best story of their time. Genesis never makes that list, but I think it is important in other ways. Bakers ‘Havevi the right?’ speech is classic time travel fodder (see yesterdays discussion re killing/aborting/averting Hitler). For Tom I go with The Ark in Space or The Talons of Weg Chiang (buts that’s mainly to annoy the libs…)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,124

    https://news.sky.com/video/maga-civil-war-breaks-out-over-trumps-potential-decision-to-join-conflict-with-iran-13385679

    Does Donald Trump not have any MAGA stars on his side for his bombing of Iran? The whining lady in clip about deaths sounds just like a Corbynite Labour MP surrender monkey.

    Yes it effectively enters USA into war with Iran where everything it has in the region becomes a bonafide target with inevitable US deaths, But the most rabid isolationists must agree with necessary need for some wars now and then? Don’t they want friends and key interests around the world and help friends out and protect their own key interests abroad? Saudi Arabia are just as much under threat of Iranian nukes as Israel, can’t MAGA see this?

    Will MAGA just row in with support once Trump starts bombing?
    I expect so, and so will US opinion switcheroo as it rally’s to the flag. In fact, the boost Trumps Iran War gives him in the rally to the flag polling might gift him a bigger congress majority next year than it looks on current political narrative so far. And then MAGA will understand and thank him.

    It Trump MAGA or is MAGA Trump? That's what we need to establish.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,403

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935738251836637487

    JUST IN - Israel expects a U.S. decision on joining Iran war within 24-48 hours — Times of Israel

    "Two weeks" Trump is unlikely to be bounced in such a manner.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,897
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Have you not seen Genesis of the Daleks? Best Dr Who episodes ever.


    Now there’s a debate. Wouldn’t even make my top 10.

    For sheer fun and joy and locations I prefer Destiny over Genesis.
    Destiny is enlivened by the fact that the effects are awful and Michael Wisher's mask had deteriorated and didn't fit David Gooderson. Plus the Movellans look strange. Plus it was cheap.

    I won't detain you with which Dalek story is the best, although I insist on bringing up "Dalek" with Eccleston.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,766
    Scott_xP said:

    Carney and Trump are about to hold rival press conferences

    Only really one winner there.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,237

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
    Oh no. Well, if a few activists on X or Instagram think so then let’s do that.
    No, I think it's a just an average of global opinion. I saw much more support for Israel previously, and Netanyahu is much the reason.
    “I think” is probably the most accurate part of that comment. And does an awful amount of lifting. “Average of global opinion” from social media? Really? Ok.
    X's algorithms have been skewed towards extremists, from around the world.

    Previously the islamist extremists' takes on Gaza were cancelled out by the gung-ho Americans' faction, for instance, but not so.much now. It's quite possible to discern broad shirts of international opinion even in a forum skewed towards activism.
    Especially if you conveniently ignore any opinions to the contrary.

    I can say I won't convince.you, but I certainly don't have any particular reason to ignore the proportion of contrary posts, and I'd like to see the appallingly regime in Iran gone, as much as any genuine liberal.
    Which is commendable and no one can really disagree with the sentiment. But seeing we all agree the regime is appalling for any number of reasons, isn’t not better that appalling regime doesn’t have use of say, nuclear weapons. Now call me naive, and I’m quite happy to admit that, but stopping them from getting and using nuclear weapons (And “using”includes the threat of “using”rather than the actual “using”) is rather preferable than them having them.
    And, forgive me again, but I’m sure a theocratic totalitarian state doesn’t react to memes or nasty things on Instagram telling them to not do something. Especially as they have, on numerous occasions called for the annihilation of the Israeli state. A democratic state happily inclusive of all the wondrous diverse identifies we all celebrate these days.

    So in essence: perhaps harsh language and a thoroughly disapproving tone will convince an appalling regime to stop? Or will a thorough thrashing (which they’re getting) do the trick?
    Well, I think that depends on whether it's counter-productive or not. I think the most realistic positive outcome is a split in the clerical hierarchy or military, and I also have the sense that that may be made even more difficult with Americam intervention.

    One thing that really interests me, and has still gathered far too little attention, I think, is who the people on those three govt planes to Oman.were.
    The mullahs moving their p0rn collection to somewhere more conducive probably. Who cares?
    Everyone who's interested in Iranian politics. They could be defectors or negotiators of any kind, and Oman seems to have blocked out most information on them, for some unknowm important reason.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Have you not seen Genesis of the Daleks? Best Dr Who episodes ever.


    Now there’s a debate. Wouldn’t even make my top 10.

    For sheer fun and joy and locations I prefer Destiny over Genesis.
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Have you not seen Genesis of the Daleks? Best Dr Who episodes ever.


    Now there’s a debate. Wouldn’t even make my top 10.

    For sheer fun and joy and locations I prefer Destiny over Genesis.
    The one with the humanoid robots? I do sometimes compile the list of one episode/story for each doctor that best typifies their time and/or I’d the best story of their time. Genesis never makes that list, but I think it is important in other ways. Bakers ‘Havevi the right?’ speech is classic time travel fodder (see yesterdays discussion re killing/aborting/averting Hitler). For Tom I go with The Ark in Space or The Talons of Weg Chiang (buts that’s mainly to annoy the libs…)
    Yes, the Movellans are in Destiny.

    For Tom it’s either Talons, City of Death or Androids of Tara for me.

    Talons only became problematic recently to some nutters. DWM had a time team review which criticised it as racist. To me it’s Fu Manchu with a mix of Holmes, rather than Holmes.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,855
    edited June 19
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Vicky Foxcroft resigns as a whip over disability cuts

    Who ?
    Vicky Foxcroft is a Government Whip who was formerly Shadow Minister for Disabled People.

    She does not particularly lead with it, but she was diagnosed (latish in life) with rheumatoid arthritis in 2019 - so this would be quite a personal issue for her.

    I found her when I was looking for generally unacknowledged disabled MPs after the General Election who had actually said something in public at some stage.

    She did an interview about her experience with the Disabled and Proud podcast here:

    https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-impact-of-disability-on-politics-vicky/id1621152878?i=1000634071291
    Resignation letter here:

    https://x.com/vickyfoxcroft/status/1935781286305583373

    and here

    https://bsky.app/profile/vickyfoxcroftmp.bsky.social/post/3lryayp7pzc2f

    *Correction* When I say "latish in life" I mean later in her life, not late for a rheumatoid arthritis diagnosis.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,028
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar

    a reporter points out to Leavitt that Trump says something will happen in "two weeks" all the time and then it doesn't happen 🙃

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1935754821119676417

    I have a task at work that has had a rolling 2 week deadline for over a year...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610
    tlg86 said:

    When I read this report I thought of Malmesbury and his Davey Crocket.

    Apparently American bunker buster can’t penetrate a bunker so deep, it needs softening up then hit with a tactical nuke

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say


    Have you not see Top Gun 2?
    Surely a New Hope? That missile is going right down some vent that has been overlooked.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,124

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935738251836637487

    JUST IN - Israel expects a U.S. decision on joining Iran war within 24-48 hours — Times of Israel

    Please, please, please let Trump turn out to be a Vulcan. (I know someone who supported Trump because he wanted 'World Peace' so it'll be great to rib him over that!)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935738251836637487

    JUST IN - Israel expects a U.S. decision on joining Iran war within 24-48 hours — Times of Israel

    Never, ever rely on Trump. I really hope even our Foreign Office has got this.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,595
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Vicky Foxcroft resigns as a whip over disability cuts

    Who ?
    Vicky Foxcroft is a Government Whip who was formerly Shadow Minister for Disabled People.

    She does not particularly lead with it, but she was diagnosed (latish in life) with rheumatoid arthritis in 2019 - so this would be quite a personal issue for her.

    I found her when I was looking for generally unacknowledged disabled MPs after the General Election who had actually said something in public at some stage.

    She did an interview about her experience with the Disabled and Proud podcast here:

    https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-impact-of-disability-on-politics-vicky/id1621152878?i=1000634071291
    My local MP. @OnlyLivingBoy may have a different experience, but she’s been pretty invisible in the constituency compared with her omnipresent predecessor Joan Ruddock.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,408
    DavidL said:

    tlg86 said:

    When I read this report I thought of Malmesbury and his Davey Crocket.

    Apparently American bunker buster can’t penetrate a bunker so deep, it needs softening up then hit with a tactical nuke

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say


    Have you not see Top Gun 2?
    Surely a New Hope? That missile is going right down some vent that has been overlooked.
    Inside job.

    The biggest conspiracy in the universe, the pilot who fired that shot? Son of the Emperor's enforcer Darth Vader.

    The daughter of Darth Vader was the one who supplied the stolen plans for the Death Star.

    One of the few people to survie the destruction of the Death Star was Darth Vader.

    There's so many other inside job angles to this.

    Don't believe the official story which was the biggest whitewash after the Hutton report.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,226
    edited June 19
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Have you not seen Genesis of the Daleks? Best Dr Who episodes ever.


    Now there’s a debate. Wouldn’t even make my top 10.

    For sheer fun and joy and locations I prefer Destiny over Genesis.
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Have you not seen Genesis of the Daleks? Best Dr Who episodes ever.


    Now there’s a debate. Wouldn’t even make my top 10.

    For sheer fun and joy and locations I prefer Destiny over Genesis.
    The one with the humanoid robots? I do sometimes compile the list of one episode/story for each doctor that best typifies their time and/or I’d the best story of their time. Genesis never makes that list, but I think it is important in other ways. Bakers ‘Havevi the right?’ speech is classic time travel fodder (see yesterdays discussion re killing/aborting/averting Hitler). For Tom I go with The Ark in Space or The Talons of Weg Chiang (buts that’s mainly to annoy the libs…)
    Yes, the Movellans are in Destiny.

    For Tom it’s either Talons, City of Death or Androids of Tara for me.

    Talons only became problematic recently to some nutters. DWM had a time team review which criticised it as racist. To me it’s Fu Manchu with a mix of Holmes, rather than Holmes.

    This probably isn’t the place but I get confused when we are (a) supposed to have colour blind casting but (b) it’s wrong for a white actor to portray a Chinese person.
    As ever with Robert Holmes there are superb characters, including Jago and Lightfoot that really should have had more TV.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    Explosion at the residence of the Norwegian Ambassador in Tel Aviv just to make it all weirder
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,917
    @jacobsoboroff.bsky.social‬

    EXCLUSIVE: VP Vance may visit L.A. this week. Source with knowledge of federal law enforcement operations tells @nbcnews.com planning underway. Guard units federalized by Trump involved in planning for visit by high-level official, another said. Plans not final, subject to change.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,017

    Explosion at the residence of the Norwegian Ambassador in Tel Aviv just to make it all weirder

    Ah, the old explosive Ferrero Rocher jape.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,408

    Explosion at the residence of the Norwegian Ambassador in Tel Aviv just to make it all weirder

    There's some Israelis that really hate Norway, same sort of people that hated Rabin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,881
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say

    Graun says US would need to drop a tactical nuke to be sure of taking out fordor and trump refuses.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,518
    Two weeks? So before eve of 4th July then?
    Sh1t post maybe?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,766
    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935738251836637487

    JUST IN - Israel expects a U.S. decision on joining Iran war within 24-48 hours — Times of Israel

    Never, ever rely on Trump. I really hope even our Foreign Office has got this.
    Sounds a bit pushy. What will they do if they don't get a decision in 48 hours - withdraw the invitation?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,881

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say

    Graun says US would need to drop a tactical nuke to be sure of taking out fordor and trump refuses.

    The irony of using a nuclear weapon to stop another country from developing nuclear weapons would tear apart from space-time continuum.
    Sounds like he’s got two cards. Bluff them into Total Surrender and handing everything over. Or regime change. It’s hard being president.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,518
    Relatively easy-peasy. Iran surrenders sovereignty of the nuke areas. They evacuate troops/ defence etc. IDF/US troops into those bases and those bases only . Do what they need to do and then get out of dodge. But Iran surrenders those areas to be cleared.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say

    Graun says US would need to drop a tactical nuke to be sure of taking out fordor and trump refuses.

    The irony of using a nuclear weapon to stop another country from developing nuclear weapons would tear apart from space-time continuum.
    Sounds like he’s got two cards. Bluff them into Total Surrender and handing everything over. Or regime change. It’s hard being president.
    Well it is if you are a moron.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,917
    @SkyNews

    Air India has confirmed it is suspending some of its long-haul flights from Saturday.

    This includes routes using the same type of Boeing aircraft which crashed shortly after take-off from Ahmedabad.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,834

    Relatively easy-peasy. Iran surrenders sovereignty of the nuke areas. They evacuate troops/ defence etc. IDF/US troops into those bases and those bases only . Do what they need to do and then get out of dodge. But Iran surrenders those areas to be cleared.

    Why is Iran going to do this?

    Iran lost around 400,000 soldiers in the Iran-Iraq war. They didn't give up. They're not going to roll over that easily in the face of Israeli and/or US attacks.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,017
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say

    Graun says US would need to drop a tactical nuke to be sure of taking out fordor and trump refuses.

    The irony of using a nuclear weapon to stop another country from developing nuclear weapons would tear apart from space-time continuum.
    Sounds like he’s got two cards. Bluff them into Total Surrender and handing everything over. Or regime change. It’s hard being president.
    Give it two weeks and hope something else has come up in the newscycle and everyone's forgotten Iran?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,518

    Relatively easy-peasy. Iran surrenders sovereignty of the nuke areas. They evacuate troops/ defence etc. IDF/US troops into those bases and those bases only . Do what they need to do and then get out of dodge. But Iran surrenders those areas to be cleared.

    Why is Iran going to do this?

    Iran lost around 400,000 soldiers in the Iran-Iraq war. They didn't give up. They're not going to roll over that easily in the face of Israeli and/or US attacks.
    Either that or their military gets completely wiped with all the implications that has for maintaining their internal grip on power. Let’s not beat about the bush here. They’re being hammered. The regime needs to pick their easiest route to survival.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,917
    @AmichaiStein1

    🚨Senior IRGC official: Before the Israeli airstrikes, we transferred all the enriched uranium from the nuclear sites to secret hiding locations.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,881

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say

    Graun says US would need to drop a tactical nuke to be sure of taking out fordor and trump refuses.

    The irony of using a nuclear weapon to stop another country from developing nuclear weapons would tear apart from space-time continuum.
    Sounds like he’s got two cards. Bluff them into Total Surrender and handing everything over. Or regime change. It’s hard being president.
    Give it two weeks and hope something else has come up in the newscycle and everyone's forgotten Iran?
    Maybe everyone can be distracted again by the Epstein list instead
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,834

    Relatively easy-peasy. Iran surrenders sovereignty of the nuke areas. They evacuate troops/ defence etc. IDF/US troops into those bases and those bases only . Do what they need to do and then get out of dodge. But Iran surrenders those areas to be cleared.

    Why is Iran going to do this?

    Iran lost around 400,000 soldiers in the Iran-Iraq war. They didn't give up. They're not going to roll over that easily in the face of Israeli and/or US attacks.
    Either that or their military gets completely wiped with all the implications that has for maintaining their internal grip on power. Let’s not beat about the bush here. They’re being hammered. The regime needs to pick their easiest route to survival.

    Reports suggest that Iran wants an out, but what's on offer? Bibi says he wants regime change (and he'll put up with the hardship of re-scheduling his son's wedding, so you know he's serious). The current Iranian regime aren't going to be keen on that.

    They could face internal revolution, although Iran can have a rally around the flag effect just like anywhere else. Internal revolution in Iraq after the first Gulf War prospered with the support of allied airpower, but failed to topple that regime in its areas of strength. It took boots on the ground to do that in the second Gulf War. The Iranian regime is not a universally hated dictatorship surviving through military force alone. It's quite popular in parts of the country.

    I'd love for the Iranian regime to dismantle itself and Iran's nuclear programme, but I'm not holding my breath.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,188
    edited June 19
    Scott_xP said:

    @AmichaiStein1

    🚨Senior IRGC official: Before the Israeli airstrikes, we transferred all the enriched uranium from the nuclear sites to secret hiding locations.

    Won't put money on that being secret given the level of Mossad infiltration.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,855
    edited June 19

    Relatively easy-peasy. Iran surrenders sovereignty of the nuke areas. They evacuate troops/ defence etc. IDF/US troops into those bases and those bases only . Do what they need to do and then get out of dodge. But Iran surrenders those areas to be cleared.

    Why is Iran going to do this?

    Iran lost around 400,000 soldiers in the Iran-Iraq war. They didn't give up. They're not going to roll over that easily in the face of Israeli and/or US attacks.
    I agree on that. There's perhaps a Russia analogy - Trump left himself holding no cards when he was wanting Russia to make a ceasefire down over Ukraine. So they didn't.

    Why would Iran back down? Who can be trusted - since did not Trump dissolve the last agreement in his first term (I'm not fully over the detail without looking it up, but iirc that was part of it)?

    Plus - TACO.

    It needs a via media - "At the end you need a door through which you can leave together". That's if they actually want peace, not a mere pause before more war.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,368
    Interesting split tonight between Express and Mail. Latter features Jenrick saying he will vote against AD in big capitals and former has cancer suffer making final plea for 'good death
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