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Vox populi, vox Dei – politicalbetting.com

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  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    So bibi will provoke Iran into doing whatever needed to drag the US in. If this isn't just like last week's timing fake out and we go tonight/tomorrow(as i suspect we will)
    He’ll certainly try. But never, ever rely on Trump.
    Never rely on anyone in the Game of Thrones innit
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    So bibi will provoke Iran into doing whatever needed to drag the US in. If this isn't just like last week's timing fake out and we go tonight/tomorrow(as i suspect we will)
    He’ll certainly try. But never, ever rely on Trump.
    Trump should be impeached if he TACOs this one, as he will.

    Yet again showing he's not fit for office.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,235
    Evening PB.

    It's not going well for Israel, partly because Gaza has done huge damage to it's western support, and partly because Iran seems to be improving, rather than decreasing, it's weapons power.

    The BBC six o clock news had a report from BBC monitoring that sounded like a bit like was from an Iranian government infiltrator. All Iranians pulling together, Israeli propaganda hack on their tv channel not helping them, etc.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    FAFO Israel !!

    Just remember who definitively does have nuclear weapons. And Bibi will be getting desperate.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,455
    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    DavidL said:

    Minutes of MPC refer to a “material further loosening in labour market conditions.”

    Or an increase in unemployment for those not as immune to such things. Another appalling euphemism from those who don’t feel the pain.

    Once again the Bank is too slow in cutting interest rates making growth harder. Add in the malign policies of Reeves and we are struggling to get any growth at all.

    Or they are clearing out the detritus of companies that should have gone long ago but are propped up by taxpayer subsidy. Think of it as Corporate Assisted Dying. Odd that people are in favour of humans being exited but will still pay through the nose for companies that should have gone long ago.

    Universal Credit says 38% of the 6.3mn UC claimants have jobs. That's a lot of subsidised employment.
    Which would those be? There may have been many in the 1970s, there haven't been since Thatcher, Major and Cameron privatised most nationalised industry and even the bailed out banks have largely returned to the private sector.

    Better getting people some work, even if subsidised, than have them sitting at home all day on benefits if of working age
    Very Victorian - how about investing to increase skills and output so there are decent wages? Other countries have done it. We are wedded to the Victorian idea of people should be grateful for a job, combined with using other peoples' money to pay for it. Lazy UK management again while the rest of the world gets on with building a future.
    You will find with a few exceptions like Germany and Japan the UK offers better apprenticeships than most of the world does. The UK also now has one of the highest minimum wages in the developed world
    Would someone of your calibre get out of bed for £12.21 an hour?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    edited June 19
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    So bibi will provoke Iran into doing whatever needed to drag the US in. If this isn't just like last week's timing fake out and we go tonight/tomorrow(as i suspect we will)
    Wasn’t that the hospital bombing today ?
    That's not making any difference to American involvement. A hit on a US base or consulate can be very confusing if launched by apparent proxies though.
    But i think it's all fake out anyway and the timing is all agreed (Trump won't risk Bibi using tactical nukes or some such )
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    FAFO Israel !!

    Just remember who definitively does have nuclear weapons. And Bibi will be getting desperate.
    That's one way they could eliminate Fordow if the Americans won't cooperate.

    Let's hope it doesn't come to that though.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,611

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    Think Tehran will be happier than Tel Aviv with that tbh.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,774
    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    "Higher or lower" to decide how many megatonnes to drop.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810

    Evening PB.

    It's not going well for Israel, partly because Gaza has done huge damage to it's western support, and partly because Iran seems to be improving, rather than decreasing, it's weapons power.

    The BBC six o clock news had a report from BBC monitoring that sounded like a bit like was from an Iranian government infiltrator. All Iranians pulling together, Israeli propaganda hack on their tv channel not helping them, etc.

    LOL.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    So bibi will provoke Iran into doing whatever needed to drag the US in. If this isn't just like last week's timing fake out and we go tonight/tomorrow(as i suspect we will)
    He’ll certainly try. But never, ever rely on Trump.
    Never rely on anyone in the Game of Thrones innit
    My favourite from that series (and the books of course) is that a Lannister always pays their debts. A really clever use of a promise understood as a threat.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,134
    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,206
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    edited June 19
    'Two weeks' is the giveaway that its bullshit to me. Why give such an oddly specific timescale when 50 or so missiles a day are barreling in at your ally? He's ruled out a ceasefire, he wants surrender.
    We saw this last week with timescales being bandied about apparently ruling out immediate action when that was already planned and agreed (and feckin obvious)
    Plus we had the other oddly specific Israeli promise of amazingly sophisticated action 'Thurs/Friday'

    I stand quite prepared to look foolish as I have done before and will again.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    Israel has done the heavy lifting. They've wiped out Iran's air defence, created air superiority, eliminated much of their military leadership etc.

    The only bit they can't do is take out Fordow. But they've done the hard work of clearing a path, all Trump has to do is the right thing and take the cleared path and eliminate that facility.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,620

    I'm not saying it is hot but Bernard Montgomery has just asked me for directions to El Alamein.

    The Jubilee Line is ... interesting.
    I feel your pain.
    Now on the gloriously air conditioned Windrush Line. Mmm.
    Lizzie Line for me (Romford to Ilford just now).
    Crossrail, for us Republicans.
    So what does you call the Victoria line?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,455
    Andy_JS said:

    "Find Out Now
    @FindoutnowUK

    🟦 Reform UK: 31% (+1)
    🔴 Labour: 23% (-1)
    🔵 Conservatives: 16% (-)
    🟠 Lib Dems: 12% (-1)
    🟢 Greens: 11% (-)

    Changes from 11th June
    [Find Out Now, 18th June, N=2,628]"

    https://x.com/FindoutnowUK/status/1935729120669007926

    Can someone post this poll showing Reform smashing this out of the park again please. It's only been posted twice this hour.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810
    edited June 19
    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610
    edited June 19
    Duplicate
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,756
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    He's a remarkable cocktail of stupidity, malevolence, narcissism, bombast, cowardice and general out of his depth incompetence. He's also the duly elected President of the United States. You still have to pinch yourself it's real.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    FAFO Israel !!

    Just remember who definitively does have nuclear weapons. And Bibi will be getting desperate.
    But that’s okay Israel having them as they are allies and wouldn’t do anything reckless.

    🤔
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,206

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Iran's nuclear programme is not the immediate problem. Stopping Iranian missiles getting through Iron Dome and killing Israeli civilians is.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Iran's nuclear programme is not the immediate problem. Stopping Iranian missiles getting through Iron Dome and killing Israeli civilians is.
    Iran's nuclear programme is the long term problem. Destroying Fordow would be a victory there.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,650
    I mean i guess going from the presser straight to the sit room and ordering a strike is 'deciding in the next two weeks' isnt it ;)
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,563
    I mean it’s entirely clear (if it wasn’t already) that NATO is on life support. Absolutely no chance Trump is defending the Baltic or Poland, for example.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,455
    edited June 19

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    The description of the car suggests an i8, which is pure electric. If so , I guess they're keen to make sure the battery doesn't ignite.
    Leon, can you Google BMW i8 and confirm if that's what it is ?
    I was doing consultancy work for Twigworth Breakers in Gloucester about 20 years ago. They had a Vectra in which had the rear portion of the roof removed.

    They told me the story of why the rear section was removed. Apparently the Vectra driver was a good Samaritan who had pulled onto the hard shoulder to assist those involved in a two car rear ended crash. The Vectra driver suggested the driver and passenger of the rear ended car wait in the back of her car for the police to arrive. Whilst in the back of the Vectra the rear ended "victims" realised they could go boots on for whiplash compo against the driver that had gone into the back of them, hence the roof had to come off the Vectra.

    Apparently the car was in storage for a while as there was some debate by the insurance companies as to who was the liable party. I believe it was adjudicated that the Vectra driver was ultimately responsible for the fire brigade writing off her car.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    'Two weeks' is the giveaway that its bullshit to me. Why give such an oddly specific timescale when 50 or so missiles a day are barreling in at your ally? He's ruled out a ceasefire, he wants surrender.
    We saw this last week with timescales being bandied about apparently ruling out immediate action when that was already planned and agreed (and feckin obvious)
    Plus we had the other oddly specific Israeli promise of amazingly sophisticated action 'Thurs/Friday'

    I stand quite prepared to look foolish as I have done before and will again.

    No. I am Spartacus.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810
    pm215 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    I don't think the people at the top of the Iranian regime who make the decisions about what to do or not do are suicide bombers who want to die -- you are mixing up some of the people on the ground with the upper leadership there I think. Iran has in the past shown some fairly calibrated attempts to retaliate in a mostly symbolic and de-escalating way that suggests to me that like most people in power the leadership quite likes being in power rather than being dead.
    I'm not confident enough in that assertion to entrust them with nuclear weapons.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,774
    https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1935756709298888836

    Has Great Britain become the "Yookay"?

    "What we are living through today, in a phrase, is an unprecedented break in national continuity. As a country we are disconnecting from the old Britain."
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,756
    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    Although he could be arsing about to prolong and max out the attention on Him and His decision.

    Fwiw (not much) I think he'll end up doing it and I agree with you that he shouldn't.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,766
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    I hope Trump continues to be unreliable in this instance. Israel does need to learn to live with its neighbours a bit, rather than picking fights and getting its 18-stone big brother finish them.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,986
    Pulpstar said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    Think Tehran will be happier than Tel Aviv with that tbh.
    And that’s TACO!!!!!

    I was sure the US would be in, but the 2 week timetable (where have we seen that before!) means no chance now.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,134
    .

    'Two weeks' is the giveaway that its bullshit to me. Why give such an oddly specific timescale when 50 or so missiles a day are barreling in at your ally? He's ruled out a ceasefire, he wants surrender.
    We saw this last week with timescales being bandied about apparently ruling out immediate action when that was already planned and agreed (and feckin obvious)
    Plus we had the other oddly specific Israeli promise of amazingly sophisticated action 'Thurs/Friday'

    I stand quite prepared to look foolish as I have done before and will again.

    "Two weeks" is Trump speak for never. Here he promises a replacement for Obamacare in two weeks after having delayed through his first presidency. He's never delivered it m

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/22/politics/donald-trump-health-care-plan-two-weeks
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,235

    https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1935756709298888836

    Has Great Britain become the "Yookay"?

    "What we are living through today, in a phrase, is an unprecedented break in national continuity. As a country we are disconnecting from the old Britain."

    I can imagine how limiting his idea of "Old Britain", is.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,774

    https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1935756709298888836

    Has Great Britain become the "Yookay"?

    "What we are living through today, in a phrase, is an unprecedented break in national continuity. As a country we are disconnecting from the old Britain."

    I can imagine how limiting his idea of "Old Britain", is.
    Limiting? I imagine it encompasses creative periods like the Swinging Sixties or the Victorian era.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,636
    edited June 19
    FF43 said:

    .

    'Two weeks' is the giveaway that its bullshit to me. Why give such an oddly specific timescale when 50 or so missiles a day are barreling in at your ally? He's ruled out a ceasefire, he wants surrender.
    We saw this last week with timescales being bandied about apparently ruling out immediate action when that was already planned and agreed (and feckin obvious)
    Plus we had the other oddly specific Israeli promise of amazingly sophisticated action 'Thurs/Friday'

    I stand quite prepared to look foolish as I have done before and will again.

    "Two weeks" is Trump speak for never. Here he promises a replacement for Obamacare in two weeks after having delayed through his first presidency. He's never delivered it m

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/22/politics/donald-trump-health-care-plan-two-weeks
    He is going back to the classic American pre-Lend Lease isolationist approach of adopting a vaguely menacing attitude to foreign warmongers but basically doing nothing to help. As Chamberlain wrote to his sister about that attitude in 1937, "It is always best and safest to count on nothing from the Americans but words".
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,611
    Two weeks is the same as "90 day pause" on tariffs.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    The description of the car suggests an i8, which is pure electric. If so , I guess they're keen to make sure the battery doesn't ignite.
    Leon, can you Google BMW i8 and confirm if that's what it is ?
    I was doing consultancy work for Twigworth Breakers in Gloucester about 20 years ago. They had a Vectra in which had the rear portion of the roof removed.

    They told me the story of why the rear section was removed. Apparently the Vectra driver was a good Samaritan who had pulled onto the hard shoulder to assist those involved in a two car rear ended crash. The Vectra driver suggested the driver and passenger of the rear ended car wait in the back of her car for the police to arrive. Whilst in the back of the Vectra the rear ended "victims" realised they could go boots on for whiplash compo against the driver that had gone into the back of them, hence the roof had to come off the Vectra.

    Apparently the car was in storage for a while as there was some debate by the insurance companies as to who was the liable party. I believe it was adjudicated that the Vectra driver was ultimately responsible for the fire brigade writing off her car.
    No good deed goes unpunished.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,642
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Great, let’s legislate based on public opinion.

    It always strikes me as odd the blindspot people in politics develop on when they must do whatever the public thinks, and when they should not.

    Obviously it's all still judgement calls, but the arguments about democratic will are not usually altered when people flip from saying it must be followed to, on another issue, they do not.
    Perhaps not so much a blind spot as the cross-over point between political advantage and personal principles.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,774
    Pulpstar said:

    Two weeks is the same as "90 day pause" on tariffs.

    Unlike tariffs it has the 'railway timetable' problem that makes it harder to postpone indefinitely.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,368
    edited June 19
    Pulpstar said:

    Two weeks is the same as "90 day pause" on tariffs.

    Yep. It's pathetic.

    Spencer Hakimian
    @SpencerHakimian
    ·
    43m
    “To what extent is this two week delay the result of interventions by Tucker Carlson and Marjorie Taylor Greene?” Reporter

    “The president hears all voices.” - Leavitt
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,642

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    Israel has done the heavy lifting. They've wiped out Iran's air defence, created air superiority, eliminated much of their military leadership etc.

    The only bit they can't do is take out Fordow. But they've done the hard work of clearing a path, all Trump has to do is the right thing and take the cleared path and eliminate that facility.
    Oops.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,368
    Just as an aside: what exactly is the current tariff rate that is being applied to US imports from Iran?

    Maybe there's a deal there?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,610

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    I hope Trump continues to be unreliable in this instance. Israel does need to learn to live with its neighbours a bit, rather than picking fights and getting its 18-stone big brother finish them.
    Exactly.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,368
    90 days is so last week so to speak.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,881

    'Two weeks' is the giveaway that its bullshit to me. Why give such an oddly specific timescale when 50 or so missiles a day are barreling in at your ally? He's ruled out a ceasefire, he wants surrender.
    We saw this last week with timescales being bandied about apparently ruling out immediate action when that was already planned and agreed (and feckin obvious)
    Plus we had the other oddly specific Israeli promise of amazingly sophisticated action 'Thurs/Friday'

    I stand quite prepared to look foolish as I have done before and will again.

    The Thurs/Fri was apparently taken out of context and actually referred to last Thursday / Friday. “When you learn the detail of what went down omg it was wild” etc…

    Of note, the US airbase in Qatar seems to have been fully evacuated. Not a cheap bluff that. I have assumed all week the US launches a one night shock and awe this Saturday. Nimitz in place, markets closed, most of the hard work in gaining air superiority and shaping the media space done.

    This might just be keeping your enemy guessing. Or to buy time to restock missile shield. But could also be taco. Who knows with this cray cray mf.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,431

    Pulpstar said:

    Two weeks is the same as "90 day pause" on tariffs.

    Yep. It's pathetic.

    Spencer Hakimian
    @SpencerHakimian
    ·
    43m
    “To what extent is this two week delay the result of interventions by Tucker Carlson and Marjorie Taylor Greene?” Reporter

    “The president hears all voices.” - Leavitt
    It's possibly the worst decision.

    I was reading some blog by a nonproliferation expert who essentially was saying that the big problem is that Iran already has enoughly highly enriched uranium that any destruction of existing facilities will prove futile, as the remaining work is now a relatively small job and could by completed in quite small facilities at a later date. So you have to destroy or secure the existing highly enriched uranium. Trump's just given Iran two weeks to move and hide that material.

    I'll be quite surprised if Israel is willing to wait and see.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,343
    In the 16% and proud of it.

    And no jokes about that’s the Conservative poll number 😠

    PS no interest rate cut today is a disaster for Labour.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    I hope Trump continues to be unreliable in this instance. Israel does need to learn to live with its neighbours a bit, rather than picking fights and getting its 18-stone big brother finish them.
    Exactly.
    And what fight have they picked, precisely?

    With the Palestinians? They attempted to negotiate with them but Arafat walked away. So they tried pulling out of Gaza, and Hamas took over and it led to 7 October.

    With Iran? Iran seeks their destruction and nuclear weapons to achieve it?

    With Egypt? No, they negotiated peace with them.

    With Jordan? No, they negotiated peace with them.

    With United Arab Emirates? No, they negotiated peace with them.

    With Bahrain? No, they negotiated peace with them.

    With Morocco? No, they negotiated peace with them.

    With Sudan? No, they negotiated peace with them.

    With Saudi? No, they were negotiating peace with them.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,722
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    I think Bibi's primary goal is to stay in power. That's probably helped if he manages to start a massive war with Iran, regardless of whether the US steps in to help.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,663
    ...

    maxh said:

    dixiedean said:

    Abortion is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice.
    Banning things you don't approve of leads to all manner of negative outcomes.
    Many of which you may approve of even less.

    Early abortion (which is a large majority of all abortion) is not a bad thing. It is a neutral thing. It is a normal part of the healthcare choices available to women.
    Do you really mean that?
    Abortion is absolutely shit for the woman. Some bounce back from it okay, but for many it is a trauma that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.
    I'm not for a minute arguing against it, but it's not a neutral thing in any way.
    Large numbers of women have early abortions and are not traumatised. About one in three women in the UK have an abortion at some point. One in three women are not deeply traumatised. The earlier an abortion is, the less traumatic it usually is. Pharmaceutical abortions are less traumatic. We should make the experience less traumatic for women by improving techniques and making choices easier. We can also not say things like, "Abortion is in principle a bad thing" or "Abortion is absolutely shit for the woman". Abortion can be traumatic and we should provide support for those women in those circumstances who have that experience. Abortion doesn't have to be traumatic.

    If I'm not getting to much into semantics, we also need to consider what makes something a "bad thing" or a "neutral thing". An appendectomy is an unpleasant experience. We should aim to avoid appendectomies. But if you need an appendectomy, then it's the right thing to do. Are appendectomies a "bad thing"? Or are they a neutral thing that are always going to be necessary and useful in some situations, because that's just how biology works? No-one goes around declaring, "Appendectomy is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice." That's arguably correct, but it's kind of a silly thing to say. We don't moralise appendectomies, and we shouldn't moralise early abortion.
    Thanks for the reply and sorry for a slow one in response.

    You make a strong case that is making me rethink. I definitely want to be in a world where women can have early abortions where they choose it to be the best option without trauma.

    We are not in that world at present. I probably should have specified - I'm not referring to physical trauma but emotional. In my limited experience, it is not something that can be analogous to having your appendix out, because the latter does not end a potential life. I am not taking a moral position on ending potential life (in fact my own view is quite radically the opposite of what might someone moralising on this might argue). Instead I am trying to reflect the reality of the weight of the decision that falls on a woman's shoulders in that situation, and how it can be hard to put that decision behind you later in life.

    And yet I also agree strongly with your view that using the language I and dixiedean used can make the public discourse about abortion less helpful for women who choose that option.

    So perhaps I will just shut up whilst I reflect on your very sensible points.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,368
    Rock stars and rivers.

    And good on them too. The Wye has been ruined and now the Severn may be too.



    Robert Plant
    @RobertPlant
    ·
    7h
    This event, just the day before a huge victory for River Action in the courts v Shropshire Council.

    https://x.com/RobertPlant/status/1935665708727148973

    River Action:

    High Court ruling sets national precedent that marks turning point for polluting factory farming in the UK
    We have won a major legal victory in the High Court against Shropshire Council today, successfully overturning the approval of a 200,000-bird intensive poultry unit near Shrewsbury in the River Severn catchment. The High Court judgment marks a pivotal moment in the movement against factory farming in the UK.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,595

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,756

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I sense you're just a hair's breath from volunteering. Incredible times here on PB.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,206

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Iran's nuclear programme is not the immediate problem. Stopping Iranian missiles getting through Iron Dome and killing Israeli civilians is.
    Iran's nuclear programme is the long term problem. Destroying Fordow would be a victory there.
    Yes it would. But the immediate problem is shoring up Iron Dome. The long term can wait.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Iran's nuclear programme is not the immediate problem. Stopping Iranian missiles getting through Iron Dome and killing Israeli civilians is.
    Iran's nuclear programme is the long term problem. Destroying Fordow would be a victory there.
    Yes it would. But the immediate problem is shoring up Iron Dome. The long term can wait.
    Nah, the Iron Dome is working OK. It'll never be perfect, but the bulk of Iranian missiles are failing and Israel has complete air superiority.

    This war is very one sided and its not Iran winning it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,403
    edited June 19

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    Has Vlad been on the blower ?

    Works every time with Ukraine.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,595
    On the weather, and this week’s mini-heatwave.

    It’s flowering time in England and Wales’s vineyards. Traditionally flowering happens during Wimbledon. At most Southern sites these days it’s a week or two before that, but on my cool terroir (I get huge diurnal ranges - hot days and cold nights) it’s still late June. I need 2 solid weeks of warm dry weather and that’ll mean good fruit set and a copious crop. Rain and cold during flowering means failed fruit set and low yields. It’s all very Clarkson’s farmish.

    What everyone forgets when they just say “pah, bit of warm weather nothing unusual” is that this is June. Most years our hottest weather happens in July or August. This week is nothing unusual by recent standards but pretty anomalous looking at June history.

    The most extreme June pattern ever was in 2019 - remember Provence hit 47C, smashing the French all time record - but thanks to a very unusual setup where a cool maritime layer undercut an extremely hot upper airmass, we didn’t have particularly hot weather. Just one day of 34C.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,669
    edited June 19
    Pops head out of the nuclear bomb shelter...if it safe to come out for a now? Its a bit toasty in there.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,188
    maxh said:

    ...

    maxh said:

    dixiedean said:

    Abortion is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice.
    Banning things you don't approve of leads to all manner of negative outcomes.
    Many of which you may approve of even less.

    Early abortion (which is a large majority of all abortion) is not a bad thing. It is a neutral thing. It is a normal part of the healthcare choices available to women.
    Do you really mean that?
    Abortion is absolutely shit for the woman. Some bounce back from it okay, but for many it is a trauma that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.
    I'm not for a minute arguing against it, but it's not a neutral thing in any way.
    Large numbers of women have early abortions and are not traumatised. About one in three women in the UK have an abortion at some point. One in three women are not deeply traumatised. The earlier an abortion is, the less traumatic it usually is. Pharmaceutical abortions are less traumatic. We should make the experience less traumatic for women by improving techniques and making choices easier. We can also not say things like, "Abortion is in principle a bad thing" or "Abortion is absolutely shit for the woman". Abortion can be traumatic and we should provide support for those women in those circumstances who have that experience. Abortion doesn't have to be traumatic.

    If I'm not getting to much into semantics, we also need to consider what makes something a "bad thing" or a "neutral thing". An appendectomy is an unpleasant experience. We should aim to avoid appendectomies. But if you need an appendectomy, then it's the right thing to do. Are appendectomies a "bad thing"? Or are they a neutral thing that are always going to be necessary and useful in some situations, because that's just how biology works? No-one goes around declaring, "Appendectomy is in principle a bad thing, but isn't in practice." That's arguably correct, but it's kind of a silly thing to say. We don't moralise appendectomies, and we shouldn't moralise early abortion.
    Thanks for the reply and sorry for a slow one in response.

    You make a strong case that is making me rethink. I definitely want to be in a world where women can have early abortions where they choose it to be the best option without trauma.

    We are not in that world at present. I probably should have specified - I'm not referring to physical trauma but emotional. In my limited experience, it is not something that can be analogous to having your appendix out, because the latter does not end a potential life. I am not taking a moral position on ending potential life (in fact my own view is quite radically the opposite of what might someone moralising on this might argue). Instead I am trying to reflect the reality of the weight of the decision that falls on a woman's shoulders in that situation, and how it can be hard to put that decision behind you later in life.

    And yet I also agree strongly with your view that using the language I and dixiedean used can make the public discourse about abortion less helpful for women who choose that option.

    So perhaps I will just shut up whilst I reflect on your very sensible points.
    Hang about. What did I say?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,455

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    I don't know enough about what's happened there to comment.

    If it were the usual Hamas trying to steal the aid for their own purposes then it is right to ensure that it doesn't happen and instead goes to those who need it.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,348
    Much harrumphing here about Diego Garcia w.r.t Iran:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c36x1d071k8o

    Realistically, Starmer would tell Hermer exactly where to go.
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Iran's nuclear programme is not the immediate problem. Stopping Iranian missiles getting through Iron Dome and killing Israeli civilians is.
    Iran's nuclear programme is the long term problem. Destroying Fordow would be a victory there.
    Yes it would. But the immediate problem is shoring up Iron Dome. The long term can wait.
    Is it a little rusty ?

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,343

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Iran's nuclear programme is not the immediate problem. Stopping Iranian missiles getting through Iron Dome and killing Israeli civilians is.
    Iran's nuclear programme is the long term problem. Destroying Fordow would be a victory there.
    Yes it would. But the immediate problem is shoring up Iron Dome. The long term can wait.
    Nah, the Iron Dome is working OK. It'll never be perfect, but the bulk of Iranian missiles are failing and Israel has complete air superiority.

    This war is very one sided and its not Iran winning it.
    Do you think Iran targeted a hospital just like Israel does in Gaza, or possible like what happens all the time in these type of wars, shooting at something going at something like Mossad building could come down anywhere?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,855
    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Someone trapped inside?

    That's the Jaws of Life, perhaps.

    I've seen a story where a minor injury casualty had sat in a passer-by's car, and they cut the roof off *that*. It could be aprocryphal.

    Here's a real one where they mistook a resident's car for the practice one from a scrapyard.
    https://www.firehouse.com/home/news/10573954/mans-honda-accord-was-accidentally-used-in-framingham-massachusetts-jaws-of-life-drill
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,235

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,343
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Iran's nuclear programme is not the immediate problem. Stopping Iranian missiles getting through Iron Dome and killing Israeli civilians is.
    Iran's nuclear programme is the long term problem. Destroying Fordow would be a victory there.
    Yes it would. But the immediate problem is shoring up Iron Dome. The long term can wait.
    Is it a little rusty ?

    Use gold.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,455

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    I don't know enough about what's happened there to comment.

    If it were the usual Hamas trying to steal the aid for their own purposes then it is right to ensure that it doesn't happen and instead goes to those who need it.
    Perhaps you need to educate yourself on what keeps "accidentally" happening.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,403

    Evening PB.

    It's not going well for Israel, partly because Gaza has done huge damage to it's western support, and partly because Iran seems to be improving, rather than decreasing, it's weapons power.

    The BBC six o clock news had a report from BBC monitoring that sounded like a bit like was from an Iranian government infiltrator. All Iranians pulling together, Israeli propaganda hack on their tv channel not helping them, etc.

    They've been Kermitted once before.

    Much as the majority likely want regime change, they just as probably don't want it on Don/Bibi terms.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,669
    edited June 19
    carnforth said:

    Much harrumphing here about Diego Garcia w.r.t Iran:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c36x1d071k8o

    Realistically, Starmer would tell Hermer exactly where to go.

    Given how little Trump adheres to what lawyers tell him can or can't do, I don't think he would take any notice either way. You going to stop the most powerful military nation in the world with a mega bomber landing / taking off, its like lying down in the middle of the M1.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,368
    TimS said:

    On the weather, and this week’s mini-heatwave.

    It’s flowering time in England and Wales’s vineyards. Traditionally flowering happens during Wimbledon. At most Southern sites these days it’s a week or two before that, but on my cool terroir (I get huge diurnal ranges - hot days and cold nights) it’s still late June. I need 2 solid weeks of warm dry weather and that’ll mean good fruit set and a copious crop. Rain and cold during flowering means failed fruit set and low yields. It’s all very Clarkson’s farmish.

    What everyone forgets when they just say “pah, bit of warm weather nothing unusual” is that this is June. Most years our hottest weather happens in July or August. This week is nothing unusual by recent standards but pretty anomalous looking at June history.

    The most extreme June pattern ever was in 2019 - remember Provence hit 47C, smashing the French all time record - but thanks to a very unusual setup where a cool maritime layer undercut an extremely hot upper airmass, we didn’t have particularly hot weather. Just one day of 34C.

    I have a feeling that July will be 38-40 degree heatwave like three years ago.

    Brace
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Iran's nuclear programme is not the immediate problem. Stopping Iranian missiles getting through Iron Dome and killing Israeli civilians is.
    Iran's nuclear programme is the long term problem. Destroying Fordow would be a victory there.
    Yes it would. But the immediate problem is shoring up Iron Dome. The long term can wait.
    Nah, the Iron Dome is working OK. It'll never be perfect, but the bulk of Iranian missiles are failing and Israel has complete air superiority.

    This war is very one sided and its not Iran winning it.
    Do you think Iran targeted a hospital just like Israel does in Gaza, or possible like what happens all the time in these type of wars, shooting at something going at something like Mossad building could come down anywhere?
    I think Israel targets Hamas facilities, not hospitals. Its just that Hamas builds the facilities in hospitals.

    I'm impressed with how well the Israelis manage to hit the Hamas facilities and leave the rest of the hospital standing, rather than just levelling the entire thing.

    I suspect Iran are lobbing attacks semi blindly and don't care what they hit, brilliant if they hit anything. I doubt they chose the hospital, I also doubt they care.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,343

    In the 16% and proud of it.

    And no jokes about that’s the Conservative poll number 😠

    PS no interest rate cut today is a disaster for Labour.

    There is no way Labour get to 2029 without a huge market crash and recession like under Gordon Brown. UK is in an awful place. The markets are looking at our borrowing interest, maxxed out on UK credit card, taxed till the hilt, massive and bloated growing state spending, growth forecasts continually getting down graded to junk growth level - all it take now is lack of support for any cost cutting such as government with huge majority losing votes in this or clearly surrendering policy before it comes to a losing vote, and then a unexpected spike in borrowing and its costs, and…
    CRASH
    IMF handout to pay the bloated public sector of homeworkers and the pensions.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,810

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    I don't know enough about what's happened there to comment.

    If it were the usual Hamas trying to steal the aid for their own purposes then it is right to ensure that it doesn't happen and instead goes to those who need it.
    Perhaps you need to educate yourself on what keeps "accidentally" happening.
    Shit happens in the fog of war.

    Best for everyone if the war ends with Hamas surrendering unconditionally.

    Or until then, if innocents seek refuge elsewhere as per refugee rights.

    Until then, Israel must press on and fight harder than they are doing.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,855
    edited June 19
    It's been massively hot here - 28C, and it's still 25C.

    I had to make my walk today into a woodland walk after my final eye injection of the series *, the schedule of starting at 6am having been delayed. And then I was forced to go into one of our lovely lakeside cafes and have an ice cream, a pint of cider, and a gorgeous cheese scone with butter to recover.

    That may have undermined the 500 calories I had walked off !

    * The eye test is a but cheatable when one of the smallest lines of letters says "ZONK", but one has to be objective.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,343
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    Surely it’s a proxy war with others arming both sides?

    Can Israel actually stop things manufactured in Russia, China, Pakistan and Turkey arming Iran, and being fired at Israel, or used to protect Iranian airspace?
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,091

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    A prime time tv event where he goes up or down with his thumb?
    Bibi will be getting twitchy. In 2 weeks Israel will be out of modern missiles at the current rate. Iran will not be. And Iron Dome may look like a colander.

    Never, ever rely on Trump. Just don’t.
    This vaguely supports what I was saying earlier. Bibi needs a shedload of American air defence systems to shore up Iron Dome. America blowing up a mountain will not help at all because that is not where Iranian missiles are coming from.
    It will help as its the target, it would help end Iran's nuclear programme.
    Iran's nuclear programme is not the immediate problem. Stopping Iranian missiles getting through Iron Dome and killing Israeli civilians is.
    Iran's nuclear programme is the long term problem. Destroying Fordow would be a victory there.
    Yes it would. But the immediate problem is shoring up Iron Dome. The long term can wait.
    Is it a little rusty ?

    Use gold.
    Always believe in its soul
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,226

    After enduring the heat in That London this afternoon, I then spent two and a half hours on a train with failed AC that was even hotter.

    Winter can't come soon enough!

    Don’t worry - the longest day approaches and then the day that I remind you all that the nights are drawing in now is the day after.*

    *Albeit pretty slowly to start with, for the pedants out there.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,455

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    I don't know enough about what's happened there to comment.

    If it were the usual Hamas trying to steal the aid for their own purposes then it is right to ensure that it doesn't happen and instead goes to those who need it.
    Perhaps you need to educate yourself on what keeps "accidentally" happening.
    Shit happens in the fog of war.

    Best for everyone if the war ends with Hamas surrendering unconditionally.

    Or until then, if innocents seek refuge elsewhere as per refugee rights.

    Until then, Israel must press on and fight harder than they are doing.
    Picking off 50 hungry people each day looks more like a bit of "fun" for the IDF rather than the fog of war.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,669
    edited June 19

    In the 16% and proud of it.

    And no jokes about that’s the Conservative poll number 😠

    PS no interest rate cut today is a disaster for Labour.

    There is no way Labour get to 2029 without a huge market crash and recession like under Gordon Brown. UK is in an awful place. The markets are looking at our borrowing interest, maxxed out on UK credit card, taxed till the hilt, massive and bloated growing state spending, growth forecasts continually getting down graded to junk growth level - all it take now is lack of support for any cost cutting such as government with huge majority losing votes in this or clearly surrendering policy before it comes to a losing vote, and then a unexpected spike in borrowing and its costs, and…
    CRASH
    IMF handout to pay the bloated public sector of homeworkers and the pensions.
    I keep expecting the car market to crash, but somehow new car registrations are up.

    But everybody I talk to is short of money, businesses are saying things are really hard, unis are saying on verge of going busto...
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,235
    These Chinese jets arriving into Tehran seem to have coincided with the turnaround.

    That may be another reason for Trump to rethink his strategy.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,015
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I sense you're just a hair's breath from volunteering. Incredible times here on PB.
    PB doesn’t have a great record when it comes to the bellicose pulling themselves from their sordid computer chairs and rallying to the flag(s).
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,518

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,226

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    If it’s true, of course. I don’t believe Hamas reports. I also blame Israel for not allowing reporters in.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,343
    When I read this report I thought of Malmesbury and his Davey Crocket.

    Apparently American bunker buster can’t penetrate a bunker so deep, it needs softening up then hit with a tactical nuke

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say


  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,455

    In the 16% and proud of it.

    And no jokes about that’s the Conservative poll number 😠

    PS no interest rate cut today is a disaster for Labour.

    There is no way Labour get to 2029 without a huge market crash and recession like under Gordon Brown. UK is in an awful place. The markets are looking at our borrowing interest, maxxed out on UK credit card, taxed till the hilt, massive and bloated growing state spending, growth forecasts continually getting down graded to junk growth level - all it take now is lack of support for any cost cutting such as government with huge majority losing votes in this or clearly surrendering policy before it comes to a losing vote, and then a unexpected spike in borrowing and its costs, and…
    CRASH
    IMF handout to pay the bloated public sector of homeworkers and the pensions.
    Surely the golden legacy Labour inherited will see them through.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,999

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Big car crash on parkway, Camden

    Hardly unknown


    What makes this special: it looks like some kind of very high spec BMW. Almost a super car. And there’s two fire engines and several cop cars. For one crash?

    And they are dismembering the vehicle in the street. Huge tools ripping open the engine etc. Why on earth would they do that?

    Why not just lift and tow it?

    Errr, is there someone trapped inside it?
    No. This is the bonnet they’re ripping off. And the wheel casing. No space for a person

    Drugs? Guns?
    Perhaps getting at airbags and other dangerous items that need to be disabled. Car manufacturers give fire brigades special cars to show them what to disable.

    But there's an expert on such matters on PB...
    Ah. A good guess. Yes
    could easily be someone stuck inside and they need front off to get at stuff holding his legs, steering column , etc
    The description of the car suggests an i8, which is pure electric. If so , I guess they're keen to make sure the battery doesn't ignite.
    Leon, can you Google BMW i8 and confirm if that's what it is ?
    The genius of PB’s collective wisdom

    Yes I just googled the BMW i8 and I’m 98% certain that’s what it was. Something like this

    https://www.carwow.co.uk/bmw/i8


    So it was the battery they were trying to dig out? In case it exploded?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,235

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump is playing for time.

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1935753377385689389

    Trump on U.S. military action against Iran: "I will make my decision whether or not to go, within the next two weeks."

    TACO.
    I don't often sympathise with Donald Trump but Netanyahu obviously launched the attack on Iran against Trump's expressed wishes in the expectation America would be bounced into doing the heavy lifting. Trump is saying, wait a moment ...
    I agree. FWIW TACO is the right answer here.
    I'm disappointed in you David.

    How would you eliminate Fordow then?
    I wouldn’t.
    Why not?

    Just do nothing and let them get nukes then?
    Yes. Because MAD kept the peace in Europe throughout my life. Ukraine were conned into giving up their nukes and have paid a terrible price. Nothing else has brought peace to the Middle East. MAD might.
    That's insane!

    MAD works when both sides want to live.

    When one side are suicide bombing religious zealots who think if they die they get an afterlife with virgins, then MAD doesn't work.
    One side has shown themselves to be genocidal lunatics of late and it’s not Iran. I am all out of sympathy for Israel.
    So you don't care if they get nuked? Well that's lovely.

    And that's why Israel needs to ensure their own safety and win the war against Hamas and Iran, as nobody else will do so.
    I know you like to take a position and refine it for purity, but you undermine your position by seeming to show zero concern about the idiocies, manipulations and sheer thuggishness that Netanyahu and his cabinet repeatedly show off to the world. Their shocking treatment of the millions living in Gaza has been completely unpunished, largely thanks to the protection they get from the USA. They have turned me 180 degrees in my opinion since October 2023.

    Iran has a malevolent regime which must fall eventually. They are an ally of Russia and a Gilead-style theocracy, but Iran wasn’t in the cusp of having a nuclear bomb let alone using it, and Israel’s cause belli is not dissimilar to Putin’s gripes about NATO. It’s a gambit to keep Netanyahu in power.
    I despise Netanyahu and want to see him in prison. He's been far too weak on Hamas and he should be in prison for corruption.

    I do not object to the fighting against Hamas, except that it has been too little, too late.

    I respect that Israel is fighting with one arm tied behind their back trying to minimise civilian casualties, unlike their enemies.

    The fighting in Gaza is the only way to eliminate Hamas. There is no peaceful way to defeat your enemies.

    Innocents should be able to get refuge away from the fighting, outside the warzone. Hamas could end the fighting today by surrendering unconditionally.

    Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, Israel must press on in my eyes. It wouldn't surprise me if Netanyahu does the wrong thing and ends the fighting prematurely though, he's never shown much interest in actually defeating Hamas.
    Eliminating circa 50 starving Gazans everyday at the Aid Stations doesn't seem like much of a "peaceful way to defeat your enemies".
    It's completely destroying Israel's international support. The social media response to the hospital bombing in Israel was almost unanimous, across many different countries, in referring to the multiple Gaza hospitals.
    God forbid the opinions on social media!

    The striking thing is that those range from the U.S to Bangladesh in this case, though.

    A massive own goal, as well as a war crime.
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