Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Something for Labour to ponder – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,495
edited May 29 in General
Something for Labour to ponder – politicalbetting.com

When it comes to Labour's fiscal rules, more Britons see the priority as improving public services, even if it means abandoning their promises on taxation and government borrowingImprove public services: 37%Keep promises on fiscal rules: 22%yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

Read the full story here

«134

Comments

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,708
    edited May 29
    Sort of connected, SLab are so crap they’ve even lost the Daily Record.

    https://x.com/paulhutcheon/status/1927843227287093529?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,878
    Lancashire finally dismiss a key player.

    In this case, Dale Benkenstein.

    Couldn't understand why they appointed him, although I was very pleased when they did.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,788
    edited May 29
    What we all really want is brilliant public services, generous welfare for us and low taxes.

    The downside of that is so obvious that only a complete shyster would promise the electorate that.

    (And once you learn about the Baumol effect, the idea that growing the private sector is a complete solution becomes less convincing- it gives the nation more income, sure, but also pushes up the cost of state services.)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,000
    Stephen Miller calls tariff ruling "judicial coup".

    All the way to Supreme Court and a finally a ruling over whether one man is above the law in US?

  • vikvik Posts: 441
    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,963
    edited May 29

    What we all really want is brilliant public services, generous welfare for us and like taxes.

    The downside of that is so obvious that only a complete shyster would promise the electorate that.

    (And once you learn about the Baumol effect, the idea that growing the private sector is a complete solution becomes less convincing- it gives the nation more income, sure, but also pushes up the cost of state services.)

    To be fair to the next Fuhrer his "brilliant public services" including the NHS will be sold to the City and Wall Street which will give him plenty of scope for generous welfare provision and tax cuts to right wing voters. His NHS insurance scheme should also be a money spinner.

    At last a fully funded plan.*

    * Possibly not the plan the voter is expecting.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,429
    edited May 29
    They could and should at least try to frame the questions in such a way that there is a chance to elicit an honest opinion. So with taxes (VAT, IT, NI, Council Tax), the real question is about a person's willingness for their own tax liability to rise, and by how much and their disposable income therefore to fall.

    WRT borrowing, I think polling is a waste of time.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,259
    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,497
    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,485
    It's notable that Fukker voters are most keen on cuts to public services. It's possible that they were too busy shoveling Turkey Twizzlers into their boz-eyed ginger kids to understand the question properly.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,527
    People like more spending on them, paid for by other people.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,796

    Stephen Miller calls tariff ruling "judicial coup".

    All the way to Supreme Court and a finally a ruling over whether one man is above the law in US?

    He is truly the MAGA Goebbels.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,429
    edited May 29
    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,577
    Nigelb said:

    Stephen Miller calls tariff ruling "judicial coup".

    All the way to Supreme Court and a finally a ruling over whether one man is above the law in US?

    He is truly the MAGA Goebbels.
    “Stephen is kind of the prime minister,” one of three Republicans close to Trump and familiar with the situation tells WIRED. Another Republican familiar with the dynamic also used the term “PM” to describe Miller, short for prime minister. The implication is that Miller is carrying out the daily work of governance while Trump serves as head of state, focusing on the fun parts of being president.

    The White House did not answer questions about who reports to or outranks whom.


    https://www.wired.com/story/katie-stephen-miller-elon-musk-takeover/

    The same article details the (now out of date) professional relationship between his wife and Musk
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,674
    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,429
    TimS said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
    I wonder if the intractable problem is that people see, with some justification, that of the £45k per household the state spends annually, a disproportionate amount is spent on relatively few people, in many cases without making them or anyone else much more cheerful.

    The Victorains may have been wrong is distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving poor, but most of the public make that distinction all the time in their minds.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,788
    edited May 29
    Dura_Ace said:

    It's notable that Fukker voters are most keen on cuts to public services. It's possible that they were too busy shoveling Turkey Twizzlers into their boz-eyed ginger kids to understand the question properly.

    Depends which Faragists.

    The golf club boors of Kent, the former right wing Conservatives, probably are rich enough that they want minimal state services. Apart from social care for themselves and the return of their Winter HolidayFuel Payment.

    The ex-Labour red wallers (who are still a smaller slice of the Reform total, for all the hype about them) might be less interested in slashing the state.

    Farage's latest speech (the one emphasising the Socialist part of his Socialist Nationalism) has got a fair bit of pushback from the right wing press, thanks to that contradiction.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,429

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,674
    Another question which should be asked is:

    Would you be happy to receive less pay / pension / benefits from the government so as to allow more money to improve public services ?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,755
    Morning all.
    Are any of the US UK 'trade deal' tarriffs better than before Trump? And if so, did they just get vacated?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,963
    edited May 29

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,429

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's notable that Fukker voters are most keen on cuts to public services. It's possible that they were too busy shoveling Turkey Twizzlers into their boz-eyed ginger kids to understand the question properly.

    Depends which Faragists.

    The golf club boors of Kent, the former right wing Conservatives, probably are rich enough that they want minimal state services. Apart from social care for themselves and the return of their Winter HolidayFuel Payment.

    The ex-Labour red wallers (who are still a smaller slice of the Reform total, for all the hype about them) might be less interested in slashing the state.

    Farage's latest speech (the one emphasising the Socialist part of his Socialist Nationalism) has got a fair bit of pushback from the right wing press, thanks to that contradiction.
    While Reform campaign as both low tax libertarian Singapore and also friend of the pensioner and poorer young family, there is no doubt in fact as to how, if it happens, they will govern.

    At least 95% of voters are in reality strong supporters of big state social democracy. Ask the voters of Clacton. Whenever they are asked they want a lot more of it.

    Farewell Singapore on Humber. Welcome the new incarnation of post WWII social democracy.

    This will add interest and clarity to the election run up, which is the whole of the next four years.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,450
    edited May 29
    FPT:

    Another legacy of GDR Merkel:

    The excess pollution emitted as a result of the Dieselgate scandal has killed about 16,000 people in the UK and caused 30,000 cases of asthma in children, according to a new analysis. A further 6,000 premature deaths will occur in coming years without action, the researchers said.

    The Dieselgate scandal erupted in 2015 when diesel cars were found to be emitting far more toxic air pollution on the roads than when they passed regulatory tests, due to the use of illegal “defeat devices”.

    Large fines and compulsory recalls of vehicles to remove or disable the defeat devices took place in the US. But experts say the UK and most EU countries have lagged far behind, leading to devastating impacts on health, and urge immediate action. Many millions of highly polluting diesel vehicles remain on the roads in the UK and EU.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/may/28/dieselgate-pollution-killed-16000-people-in-uk-study-estimates

    When does Germany pay reparations for this ?

    That's following on from a Court verdict in Germany locking up the Corporate panjandrums who supervised the company, with fairly modest sentences - 4 years, 2 years, and two suspended, all subject to appeal.

    To me it reads like another one from the previous UK Govt where hands were waved, a law was passed, and then the Govt and the next X PMs sat resolutely on their arses (in my assumption because they wanted to pretend they could do tax cuts after the election).

    The Govt had a duty to act from 2020, but nothing happened.

    AFAICS Mr Starmer has addressed a couple of these, such as the contaminated blood scandal.

    I'm baffled as to why compensation is being considered for the people who bought the vehicles, and not a relatively greater emphasis on the people who were impacted or sent to early deaths by the emissions - whether an individual of eg research emphasis.

    I'm also interested that this is progressing because of litigation by one of those derided non-profits who bring legal action against the Government.

    Along the way checking this to catch up I found a photo of Rory practising his Instagram pout, so .. my photo for today :wink:

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,674

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,497
    edited May 29
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
    I wonder if the intractable problem is that people see, with some justification, that of the £45k per household the state spends annually, a disproportionate amount is spent on relatively few people, in many cases without making them or anyone else much more cheerful.

    The Victorains may have been wrong is distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving poor, but most of the public make that distinction all the time in their minds.
    For most households that looks like an absolute deal, because they won’t be paying anything like 45k in tax, including the VAT on their spending. Yet for their more modest subscription fee they’re getting unlimited use of every road in the country, 5-18 schooling for their children, access to all healthcare with no excess or exclusions except dentistry, actual monthly cashback straight into their bank account once they retire, a comprehensive security service, a complete set of consumer protection so they know they can trust the stuff they buy in the shops, and even their own military to keep away attackers.

    Those who are paying more than 45k have benefited from all the good things living in a developed country with economic opportunities brings, so can hardly whinge. That probably includes most of us.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,787
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    A while back, we were discussing the case of two children, who were getting a custom care home in a Cotswold care home (custom converted house), with 24/7 live in staff.

    Something like £250k per year per child.

    And that was the end result of 14 years of Evul Tory government.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,788
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    Grim and grisly paradox.

    The more we make the state efficient, by withdrawing services from those who are comfortable enough to not need them, the worse the cost: benefit analysis looks for most voters. This is starkest for local councils, most of which provide expensive social care for a small number of people, a shrinking bin collection service and not much else. It's not a good value proposition.

    But, unless we are prepared to kick such people out of the tent and hope that the huskies will pull us to safety, there's not a lot to be done. People are people, no matter how expensive.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,769
    Extraordinary polling. People want to make themselves worse off - those in work want better public services (which they don't use as much), while those must.likely to be on state handouts, paying less tax and using the NHS want lower taxes.

    It's difficult to see a way back for the Conservatives with this level of cognitive dissonance. The sober, sensible fiscal approach holds no support any more, and their natural constituency of people in work on decent salaries aren't interested.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,497
    algarkirk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's notable that Fukker voters are most keen on cuts to public services. It's possible that they were too busy shoveling Turkey Twizzlers into their boz-eyed ginger kids to understand the question properly.

    Depends which Faragists.

    The golf club boors of Kent, the former right wing Conservatives, probably are rich enough that they want minimal state services. Apart from social care for themselves and the return of their Winter HolidayFuel Payment.

    The ex-Labour red wallers (who are still a smaller slice of the Reform total, for all the hype about them) might be less interested in slashing the state.

    Farage's latest speech (the one emphasising the Socialist part of his Socialist Nationalism) has got a fair bit of pushback from the right wing press, thanks to that contradiction.
    While Reform campaign as both low tax libertarian Singapore and also friend of the pensioner and poorer young family, there is no doubt in fact as to how, if it happens, they will govern.

    At least 95% of voters are in reality strong supporters of big state social democracy. Ask the voters of Clacton. Whenever they are asked they want a lot more of it.

    Farewell Singapore on Humber. Welcome the new incarnation of post WWII social democracy.

    This will add interest and clarity to the election run up, which is the whole of the next four years.
    Of course if we followed low tax Singapore our employers NI rate would be 17%.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,429
    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
    I wonder if the intractable problem is that people see, with some justification, that of the £45k per household the state spends annually, a disproportionate amount is spent on relatively few people, in many cases without making them or anyone else much more cheerful.

    The Victorains may have been wrong is distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving poor, but most of the public make that distinction all the time in their minds.
    For most households that looks like an absolute deal, because they won’t be paying anything like 45k in tax, including the VAT on their spending. Yet further more modest subscription fee they’re getting unlimited use of every road in the country, 5-18 schooling for their children, access to all healthcare with no excess or exclusions except dentistry, actual monthly cashback straight into their bank account once they retire, a comprehensive security service, a complete set of consumer protection so they know they can trust the stuff they buy in the shops, and even their own military to keep away attackers.

    Those who are paying more than 45k have benefited from all the good things living in a developed country with economic opportunities brings, so can hardly whinge. That probably includes most of us.
    Yes. I think we are both right.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,963

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,450
    edited May 29
    algarkirk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's notable that Fukker voters are most keen on cuts to public services. It's possible that they were too busy shoveling Turkey Twizzlers into their boz-eyed ginger kids to understand the question properly.

    Depends which Faragists.

    The golf club boors of Kent, the former right wing Conservatives, probably are rich enough that they want minimal state services. Apart from social care for themselves and the return of their Winter HolidayFuel Payment.

    The ex-Labour red wallers (who are still a smaller slice of the Reform total, for all the hype about them) might be less interested in slashing the state.

    Farage's latest speech (the one emphasising the Socialist part of his Socialist Nationalism) has got a fair bit of pushback from the right wing press, thanks to that contradiction.
    While Reform campaign as both low tax libertarian Singapore and also friend of the pensioner and poorer young family, there is no doubt in fact as to how, if it happens, they will govern.

    At least 95% of voters are in reality strong supporters of big state social democracy. Ask the voters of Clacton. Whenever they are asked they want a lot more of it.

    Farewell Singapore on Humber. Welcome the new incarnation of post WWII social democracy.

    This will add interest and clarity to the election run up, which is the whole of the next four years.
    I think we will see some detail of that from the performance RefUK County Councils, who are required to deliver a lot of services, and control 90% or so (?) of expenditure.

    I'm not clear that the Govt will have a comms programme capable of holding them responsible, or whether national media will report it.

    There will be a difference perhaps because Kent is more likely to make the news than Notts or County Durham, but in the absence of media suddenly turning into news media I think it will take another cycle for any problems to come to the fore.

    A further complexity is that so much of the country will be moving to Regional Mayors, which I think will improve local government through more subsidiarity. That is if Westminster can stop interfering for once, and local government can develop the appropriate skills / capacity without being gutted to save pin money.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,708
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    Another legacy of GDR Merkel:

    The excess pollution emitted as a result of the Dieselgate scandal has killed about 16,000 people in the UK and caused 30,000 cases of asthma in children, according to a new analysis. A further 6,000 premature deaths will occur in coming years without action, the researchers said.

    The Dieselgate scandal erupted in 2015 when diesel cars were found to be emitting far more toxic air pollution on the roads than when they passed regulatory tests, due to the use of illegal “defeat devices”.

    Large fines and compulsory recalls of vehicles to remove or disable the defeat devices took place in the US. But experts say the UK and most EU countries have lagged far behind, leading to devastating impacts on health, and urge immediate action. Many millions of highly polluting diesel vehicles remain on the roads in the UK and EU.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/may/28/dieselgate-pollution-killed-16000-people-in-uk-study-estimates

    When does Germany pay reparations for this ?

    That's following on from a Court verdict in Germany locking up the Corporate panjandrums who supervised the company, with fairly modest sentences - 4 years, 2 years, and two suspended, all subject to appeal.

    To me it reads like another one from the previous UK Govt where hands were waved, a law was passed, and then the Govt and the next X PMs sat resolutely on their arses (in my assumption because they wanted to pretend they could do tax cuts after the election).

    The Govt had a duty to act from 2020, but nothing happened.

    AFAICS Mr Starmer has addressed a couple of these, such as the contaminated blood scandal.

    I'm baffled as to why compensation is being considered for the people who bought the vehicles, and not a relatively greater emphasis on the people who were impacted or sent to early deaths by the emissions - whether an individual of eg research emphasis.

    I'm also interested that this is progressing because of litigation by one of those derided non-profits who bring legal action against the Government.

    Along the way checking this to catch up I found a photo of Rory practising his Instagram pout, so .. my photo for today :wink:

    Touch of the Jaggers, though the later etiolated version obviously.

    It's All Over Now
    (the Tory party)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,769

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    Grim and grisly paradox.

    The more we make the state efficient, by withdrawing services from those who are comfortable enough to not need them, the worse the cost: benefit analysis looks for most voters. This is starkest for local councils, most of which provide expensive social care for a small number of people, a shrinking bin collection service and not much else. It's not a good value proposition.

    But, unless we are prepared to kick such people out of the tent and hope that the huskies will pull us to safety, there's not a lot to be done. People are people, no matter how expensive.
    I think health inequality is going to doom the NHS too. Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick.

    And crime. The police have efficiently allocated their resources to violent crime, but that primarily effects people living in areas with high deprivation. Meanwhile my bicycle or phone gets nicked and nothing is done about it.

    The one area this isn't true is transport, with massive cuts to bus services while motoring gets cheaper and trains get heavily subsidised.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,636
    Morning all :)

    Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but the final four deputies in the new Portuguese National Assembly have been chosen following the counting of overseas votes. Two went to the AD and two to Chega which has made Chega the official opposition with 60 deputies ahead of the Socialists on 58.

    In terms of actual votes, however, Chega were 4,300 votes behind the Socialists but that makes little odds.

    It's likely AD leader Montenegro will lead a new Government but for a majority he will need some form of deal with the Socialists as Liberal Initiative, whose overall result wasn't brilliant, have refused to go into Government with AD.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,497
    Talking of freeloaders, the most incredible example just now.

    Our office front doors are revolving, but manual. Chap stepped into one ahead of me, and then just stood there. I then went in and pushed, and he got a sort of free concierge service enabling him to stroll on into the foyer.

    Almost admirable.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,755
    Eabhal said:

    Extraordinary polling. People want to make themselves worse off - those in work want better public services (which they don't use as much), while those must.likely to be on state handouts, paying less tax and using the NHS want lower taxes.

    It's difficult to see a way back for the Conservatives with this level of cognitive dissonance. The sober, sensible fiscal approach holds no support any more, and their natural constituency of people in work on decent salaries aren't interested.

    Its a bit 'easiser' when 4.5 party politics means 28 or 29% probably gets you the keys to number 10. A hodge podge of support on a few varied issues and youre there. The era of grand arguments is, at least, on hold
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,457
    edited May 29

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    As a matter of interest how would you penalise these people ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,577

    Touch of the Jaggers, though the later etiolated version obviously.

    It's All Over Now
    (the Tory party)

    One of my favourites is Whoopi Goldberg trying to decipher the lyrics of Jumping Jack Flash by listening to a cassette

    "Mick, Speak English!"
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,963

    Another question which should be asked is:

    Would you be happy to receive less pay / pension / benefits from the government so as to allow more money to improve public services ?

    With the hostility and pushback to Reeves's unfortunate "war on scroungers" I think we already have our answer.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,457
    Eabhal said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    Grim and grisly paradox.

    The more we make the state efficient, by withdrawing services from those who are comfortable enough to not need them, the worse the cost: benefit analysis looks for most voters. This is starkest for local councils, most of which provide expensive social care for a small number of people, a shrinking bin collection service and not much else. It's not a good value proposition.

    But, unless we are prepared to kick such people out of the tent and hope that the huskies will pull us to safety, there's not a lot to be done. People are people, no matter how expensive.
    I think health inequality is going to doom the NHS too. Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick.

    And crime. The police have efficiently allocated their resources to violent crime, but that primarily effects people living in areas with high deprivation. Meanwhile my bicycle or phone gets nicked and nothing is done about it.

    The one area this isn't true is transport, with massive cuts to bus services while motoring gets cheaper and trains get heavily subsidised.
    'Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick'.

    So when you become a pensioner or unfortunately chronic sick how would you address the problem ?
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 940

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    I'm not a fan of that kind of framing because it picks at a thread of moral judgement which causes the whole health and social care service to unravel. Many sports radically increase your chances of having an accident, should you disclaim the right to treatment from any injuries derived from that sport because you knew the risks?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,259
    .
    Eabhal said:

    Extraordinary polling. People want to make themselves worse off - those in work want better public services (which they don't use as much), while those must.likely to be on state handouts, paying less tax and using the NHS want lower taxes.

    It's difficult to see a way back for the Conservatives with this level of cognitive dissonance. The sober, sensible fiscal approach holds no support any more, and their natural constituency of people in work on decent salaries aren't interested.

    Define a decent salary. Money is tight for pretty much everyone, and we can all see the decline and crumbling decay.

    I can still see a way back for the Tories, but it involves vision and contrition. Vision is a return to a low tax smaller state but one where things are efficiently managed and run. Contrition is a mea culpa for presiding over gross mismanagement, waste, inefficiency and corruption.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,755

    Eabhal said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    Grim and grisly paradox.

    The more we make the state efficient, by withdrawing services from those who are comfortable enough to not need them, the worse the cost: benefit analysis looks for most voters. This is starkest for local councils, most of which provide expensive social care for a small number of people, a shrinking bin collection service and not much else. It's not a good value proposition.

    But, unless we are prepared to kick such people out of the tent and hope that the huskies will pull us to safety, there's not a lot to be done. People are people, no matter how expensive.
    I think health inequality is going to doom the NHS too. Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick.

    And crime. The police have efficiently allocated their resources to violent crime, but that primarily effects people living in areas with high deprivation. Meanwhile my bicycle or phone gets nicked and nothing is done about it.

    The one area this isn't true is transport, with massive cuts to bus services while motoring gets cheaper and trains get heavily subsidised.
    'Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick'.

    So when you become a pensioner or unfortunately chronic sick how would you address the problem ?
    This is the problem. Same with decrying 'benefit scroungers' - same people decrying would expect support if something happened to them to make them unable to work.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,450
    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
    I wonder if the intractable problem is that people see, with some justification, that of the £45k per household the state spends annually, a disproportionate amount is spent on relatively few people, in many cases without making them or anyone else much more cheerful.

    The Victorains may have been wrong is distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving poor, but most of the public make that distinction all the time in their minds.
    For most households that looks like an absolute deal, because they won’t be paying anything like 45k in tax, including the VAT on their spending. Yet for their more modest subscription fee they’re getting unlimited use of every road in the country, 5-18 schooling for their children, access to all healthcare with no excess or exclusions except dentistry, actual monthly cashback straight into their bank account once they retire, a comprehensive security service, a complete set of consumer protection so they know they can trust the stuff they buy in the shops, and even their own military to keep away attackers.

    Those who are paying more than 45k have benefited from all the good things living in a developed country with economic opportunities brings, so can hardly whinge. That probably includes most of us.
    The revenue, nor the expenditure, is not for 'households' though. I think that is the assumption in the calculation, which I make as 1330bn total Govt expenditure across approximately 30 million households = ~45k per household, compared with the tax paid directly by a household.

    The roads, for example, are used by businesses and other organisations. And individuals using the road are doing so for others' benefit as well as their own eg driving to work.

    I think the larger problem is trying philosophically to make it a reductionist sum for each household; that's not how society can work.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,665
    Stereodog said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    I'm not a fan of that kind of framing because it picks at a thread of moral judgement which causes the whole health and social care service to unravel. Many sports radically increase your chances of having an accident, should you disclaim the right to treatment from any injuries derived from that sport because you knew the risks?
    Agree with @Sterodog here: in my youth I did a fair amount of rock climbing. Should I have been refused care if I fell off a cliff? How about rugby players? How about the people that do a lot of driving for their job & are at far greater risk of injury as a result (IIRC sales types who were on the road a lot used to have much the same rate of injury as the most dangerous jobs in the country). Should we be adding an NHS surcharge to their income taxes to compensate the country for the extra costs?

    This line of argument rapidly gets extremely thorny & demands that the state poke into every aspect of our lives to judge whether or not our choices are “worthy” enough to get healthcare. Is that really where we want to be going as a country?

    (Incidentally, my understanding of the research is that heavy smokers tend to die earlier & cheaper: The most expensive are the healthy people who get dementia & require 24/7 care for years on end because they’re too physically healthy to drop dead earlier on.)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,769

    Eabhal said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    Grim and grisly paradox.

    The more we make the state efficient, by withdrawing services from those who are comfortable enough to not need them, the worse the cost: benefit analysis looks for most voters. This is starkest for local councils, most of which provide expensive social care for a small number of people, a shrinking bin collection service and not much else. It's not a good value proposition.

    But, unless we are prepared to kick such people out of the tent and hope that the huskies will pull us to safety, there's not a lot to be done. People are people, no matter how expensive.
    I think health inequality is going to doom the NHS too. Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick.

    And crime. The police have efficiently allocated their resources to violent crime, but that primarily effects people living in areas with high deprivation. Meanwhile my bicycle or phone gets nicked and nothing is done about it.

    The one area this isn't true is transport, with massive cuts to bus services while motoring gets cheaper and trains get heavily subsidised.
    'Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick'.

    So when you become a pensioner or unfortunately chronic sick how would you address the problem ?
    I think we need to spend way more on universal public health provision and less on hospitals. Otherwise, the ratio of healthy:unhealthy voters will overwhelm our politics and social contract.

    I think it's already happened, tbh.
  • Let’s whack taxes up for millionaire pensioners. See how they like it especially those that are winging about the WFA.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,259
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    Grim and grisly paradox.

    The more we make the state efficient, by withdrawing services from those who are comfortable enough to not need them, the worse the cost: benefit analysis looks for most voters. This is starkest for local councils, most of which provide expensive social care for a small number of people, a shrinking bin collection service and not much else. It's not a good value proposition.

    But, unless we are prepared to kick such people out of the tent and hope that the huskies will pull us to safety, there's not a lot to be done. People are people, no matter how expensive.
    I think health inequality is going to doom the NHS too. Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick.

    And crime. The police have efficiently allocated their resources to violent crime, but that primarily effects people living in areas with high deprivation. Meanwhile my bicycle or phone gets nicked and nothing is done about it.

    The one area this isn't true is transport, with massive cuts to bus services while motoring gets cheaper and trains get heavily subsidised.
    'Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick'.

    So when you become a pensioner or unfortunately chronic sick how would you address the problem ?
    I think we need to spend way more on universal public health provision and less on hospitals. Otherwise, the ratio of healthy:unhealthy voters will overwhelm our politics and social contract.

    I think it's already happened, tbh.
    Radical idea - lets spend money on prevention rather than spend more money on dealing the consequences of not preventing people getting ill.

    Ah but, the NHS is in crisis and we're short of money. So we need to cut and only spend on the things we have to. Yes, and that cut isn't a cut, it costs more than the saving realised.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,550
    Scott_xP said:

    Touch of the Jaggers, though the later etiolated version obviously.

    It's All Over Now
    (the Tory party)

    One of my favourites is Whoopi Goldberg trying to decipher the lyrics of Jumping Jack Flash by listening to a cassette

    "Mick, Speak English!"
    Talking of Jagger, always makes me smile this.

    https://youtu.be/jPjk2nYiY0Q?si=Wi8xApdTHV3rb-1Z
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,769
    Stereodog said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    I'm not a fan of that kind of framing because it picks at a thread of moral judgement which causes the whole health and social care service to unravel. Many sports radically increase your chances of having an accident, should you disclaim the right to treatment from any injuries derived from that sport because you knew the risks?
    That's an argument some motorists make against increased rates of cycling. But the risk and costs of being injured in a collision is small compared with the overall health benefits - it's 20:1 by some estimates. *

    I think you'd struggle to find a doctor who discouraged people playing football on health grounds.

    *One of the bigger health costs was ventilating pollution coming from motor vehicles, funnily enough.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,457

    Let’s whack taxes up for millionaire pensioners. See how they like it especially those that are winging about the WFA.

    The time is coming when the NHS will have to charge the wealthy

    And as far as winging about WFA, it needed amending but it seems winging is very much a minority position not least with Labour mps who are paying the price of a stupid implementation of a reasonable policy
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,578
    edited May 29

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    As tough a choice as it is, that money spent on end of life care would be better spent on
    early years lifestyle intervention and education (diet, nutrition, education about the importance of healthy lifestyle choices, mental wellness) and better sports, fitness and recreational spaces and opportunities.
    Spend a bit early doors, save loads later on.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,963

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    As tough a choice as it is, that money spent on end of life care would be better spent on
    early years lifestyle intervention and education (diet, nutrition, education about the importance of healthy lifestyle choices, mental wellness) and better sports, fitness and recreational spaces and opportunities.
    Spend a bit early doors, save loads later on.
    Sure start?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,755
    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,577

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    He's (still) running
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,064
    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's notable that Fukker voters are most keen on cuts to public services. It's possible that they were too busy shoveling Turkey Twizzlers into their boz-eyed ginger kids to understand the question properly.

    Depends which Faragists.

    The golf club boors of Kent, the former right wing Conservatives, probably are rich enough that they want minimal state services. Apart from social care for themselves and the return of their Winter HolidayFuel Payment.

    The ex-Labour red wallers (who are still a smaller slice of the Reform total, for all the hype about them) might be less interested in slashing the state.

    Farage's latest speech (the one emphasising the Socialist part of his Socialist Nationalism) has got a fair bit of pushback from the right wing press, thanks to that contradiction.
    While Reform campaign as both low tax libertarian Singapore and also friend of the pensioner and poorer young family, there is no doubt in fact as to how, if it happens, they will govern.

    At least 95% of voters are in reality strong supporters of big state social democracy. Ask the voters of Clacton. Whenever they are asked they want a lot more of it.

    Farewell Singapore on Humber. Welcome the new incarnation of post WWII social democracy.

    This will add interest and clarity to the election run up, which is the whole of the next four years.
    Of course if we followed low tax Singapore our employers NI rate would be 17%.
    And 85% of people would rent their homes.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,450
    edited May 29
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    Grim and grisly paradox.

    The more we make the state efficient, by withdrawing services from those who are comfortable enough to not need them, the worse the cost: benefit analysis looks for most voters. This is starkest for local councils, most of which provide expensive social care for a small number of people, a shrinking bin collection service and not much else. It's not a good value proposition.

    But, unless we are prepared to kick such people out of the tent and hope that the huskies will pull us to safety, there's not a lot to be done. People are people, no matter how expensive.
    I think health inequality is going to doom the NHS too. Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick.

    And crime. The police have efficiently allocated their resources to violent crime, but that primarily effects people living in areas with high deprivation. Meanwhile my bicycle or phone gets nicked and nothing is done about it.

    The one area this isn't true is transport, with massive cuts to bus services while motoring gets cheaper and trains get heavily subsidised.
    'Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick'.

    So when you become a pensioner or unfortunately chronic sick how would you address the problem ?
    I think we need to spend way more on universal public health provision and less on hospitals. Otherwise, the ratio of healthy:unhealthy voters will overwhelm our politics and social contract.

    I think it's already happened, tbh.
    Not wanting to be too sharp, but that has been the direction of policy and travel for at least 25 years. For example, in far wider portfolios of services based in GP practices run by community based nurses, as also illustrated by the vanishing of single-doctor GP practices (trend boosted by Shipman). We can add in eg the 111 service as community-based.

    The divisions are also far greyer, and not so divided. For example, hospitals do all sorts of non-acute services, used by the entire population, and that applies to all age groups.

    If you want an example, look at the increase in childhood Type II diabetes, or in adult onset of Type I diabetes.

    Ultimately, a politics of division won't work, even though some of our politicians may try to leverage it.

    The key is that a universal system *does* work, and it works better than alternatives.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,358
    Curse of a new thread (wrote half this post then got called in with my wife for baby 2's 20 week scan)
    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:



    I 100% agree that the rise in National Insurance - which hits the poorest and discourages employment - is monumentally stupid.

    We want to maximize the number of people in work, and reduce the barriers to employment for those with the fewest skills, and NI is a disastrous tax on this group.

    No - employer's National Insurance doesn't hit the poorest disproportionately, if at all. The poorest, those on benefits, don't feel it except very indirectly and partially through a generalised rise in prices. Those in informal employment may actually benefit from an increase in demand for their services as formal employment becomes more expensive. And those on very low, part-time wages won't feel it at all and again may experience an increase in employment because it doesn't kick in until £5,000-12,000/year, depending on your national insurance category.

    It's everybody else, not the poorest, that will mostly suffer from it.
    Wait.

    So, you are seriously telling me that increasing employer's NIC from 13.8% to 15%, and reducing the threshold to £5,000/year doesn’t massively affect the likelihood of low-productivity workers finding gainful employment? That defies basic economic logic.

    Firms hire based on whether the value a worker adds exceeds their total cost. For low-productivity workers (those in roles with marginal economic output), then raising the non-wage cost of employment makes them less attractive to hire. (This can easily be seen by looking at the fact that countries like France, with high social charges, effectively create an underclass of the unemployable, because their cost of employment can't possible equal their economic output.)

    So no, it’s not "everybody else" that suffers: it’s disproportionately the people trying to take the first rung on the employment ladder.
    No.

    You need to read how employer's NI works. It's the lowest productivity workers, mostly those that are trying to take the first step on the employment ladder (those in NI categories H, M and Z) that get the £12,500 thresholds, not the £5,000 allowances that everybody else gets, precisely for this reason. So it affects them proportionately much less, if at all.

    And as I say, the poorest, those on benefits, won't suffer much.

    So it's absolutely everybody else who suffers, and the low productivity workers, though they will no doubt suffer, will suffer proportionately less. And as I say may benefit marginally if they're in the black economy.

    The best thing the government can do to help the most vulnerable into employment is scrap the scandalously high minimum wage.
    The people who really need help into the workforce are not the really young. They are people like the guy I've just taken on.

    30ish, chequered working history - never held down a job for more than about 6 months. Did a year of uni and dropped out, then back into a cycle of short term minimum wage jobs interspersed with periods on benefits.

    The job centre sent him to college for a welding and fabrication course. That was a complete waste of tax payers money, he couldn't weld when he turned up with us - he improved dramatically after a 5 minute lesson from me, and I'm not really a welder (I'd not pass a proper coded weld test, although I'm capable of snotting jigs and fixtures together).

    Ultimately I'm probably his ideal employer - I'll tolerate a degree of haphazard unreliablility, so long as he works hard when he turns up. If he applies himself and doesn't completely blot his copybook, he'll probably be on £30-40k in a year or two. Or he'll be back at the dole office, and I'll be wondering why I bothered.

    In terms of sane NI policy, giving employers a year off employers NI for new full-time employees who were on Universal Credit would probably be a fairly cheap incentive to take on more "risky" employees.

    Meanwhile, if Big Ange pushes through workers rights from day one, I'll never take a risk on an hire again - it's only the fact that I can dump this chap without going through an elaborate legal process that makes the risk worth taking.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 852
    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
    I wonder if the intractable problem is that people see, with some justification, that of the £45k per household the state spends annually, a disproportionate amount is spent on relatively few people, in many cases without making them or anyone else much more cheerful.

    The Victorains may have been wrong is distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving poor, but most of the public make that distinction all the time in their minds.
    For most households that looks like an absolute deal, because they won’t be paying anything like 45k in tax, including the VAT on their spending. Yet for their more modest subscription fee they’re getting unlimited use of every road in the country, 5-18 schooling for their children, access to all healthcare with no excess or exclusions except dentistry, actual monthly cashback straight into their bank account once they retire, a comprehensive security service, a complete set of consumer protection so they know they can trust the stuff they buy in the shops, and even their own military to keep away attackers.

    Those who are paying more than 45k have benefited from all the good things living in a developed country with economic opportunities brings, so can hardly whinge. That probably includes most of us.
    The revenue, nor the expenditure, is not for 'households' though. I think that is the assumption in the calculation, which I make as 1330bn total Govt expenditure across approximately 30 million households = ~45k per household, compared with the tax paid directly by a household.

    The roads, for example, are used by businesses and other organisations. And individuals using the road are doing so for others' benefit as well as their own eg driving to work.

    I think the larger problem is trying philosophically to make it a reductionist sum for each household; that's not how society can work.
    Interestingly, the median household income (after tax) is only £36k, so most people are already getting far more than they pay in. That figure includes benefit income, and so the imbalance is even worse than that.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,259

    Eabhal said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    Grim and grisly paradox.

    The more we make the state efficient, by withdrawing services from those who are comfortable enough to not need them, the worse the cost: benefit analysis looks for most voters. This is starkest for local councils, most of which provide expensive social care for a small number of people, a shrinking bin collection service and not much else. It's not a good value proposition.

    But, unless we are prepared to kick such people out of the tent and hope that the huskies will pull us to safety, there's not a lot to be done. People are people, no matter how expensive.
    I think health inequality is going to doom the NHS too. Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick.

    And crime. The police have efficiently allocated their resources to violent crime, but that primarily effects people living in areas with high deprivation. Meanwhile my bicycle or phone gets nicked and nothing is done about it.

    The one area this isn't true is transport, with massive cuts to bus services while motoring gets cheaper and trains get heavily subsidised.
    'Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick'.

    So when you become a pensioner or unfortunately chronic sick how would you address the problem ?
    This is the problem. Same with decrying 'benefit scroungers' - same people decrying would expect support if something happened to them to make them unable to work.
    We can disarm this entire row by going after the problem at source. Despite the endless right wing weaponised ignorance, much of the "benefits" paid to "scroungers" are UC paid in work because wages don't pay the bills.

    Despite occasional left wing whines about BigCo not paying taxes, it isn't practical to expect employers to increase wages by 20% - we need to go after the cost of living and reduce it.

    And the two biggies are Housing and Energy.
    1) Decouple rent from market prices. We can smash the landlord scam by offering social housing at viable rents. Private sector landlords will be put out of business which floods their properties back onto the market which knocks the wind out of prices. Empower LHAs to build more social housing never for market sale thus rents not needing to be market priced.
    2) Decouple energy costs from the market. A quick glance at Gridwatch shows 61% of today's demand is from wind and solar, yet we're priced based on gas imports (gas is 5% today and some of that will be domestic). Price our own energy based on much of it being renewable and thus free to generate*

    Thats a big start on the journey.

    *Yes, free. There are maintenance costs. But that is also true of power generation which burns something you have to pay for such as gas - with far fewer parts to maintain
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,963
    Stereodog said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    I'm not a fan of that kind of framing because it picks at a thread of moral judgement which causes the whole health and social care service to unravel. Many sports radically increase your chances of having an accident, should you disclaim the right to treatment from any injuries derived from that sport because you knew the risks?
    Dangerous sports insurance? Even for more mainstream sports.

    Go skiing and your holiday insurance is jacked up.

    I don't want any of this, but if the alternative is Farage's US style health insurance whereby when you reach your threshold you are sent home on the bus, something has to give.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,665
    edited May 29

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    It's notable that Fukker voters are most keen on cuts to public services. It's possible that they were too busy shoveling Turkey Twizzlers into their boz-eyed ginger kids to understand the question properly.

    Depends which Faragists.

    The golf club boors of Kent, the former right wing Conservatives, probably are rich enough that they want minimal state services. Apart from social care for themselves and the return of their Winter HolidayFuel Payment.

    The ex-Labour red wallers (who are still a smaller slice of the Reform total, for all the hype about them) might be less interested in slashing the state.

    Farage's latest speech (the one emphasising the Socialist part of his Socialist Nationalism) has got a fair bit of pushback from the right wing press, thanks to that contradiction.
    While Reform campaign as both low tax libertarian Singapore and also friend of the pensioner and poorer young family, there is no doubt in fact as to how, if it happens, they will govern.

    At least 95% of voters are in reality strong supporters of big state social democracy. Ask the voters of Clacton. Whenever they are asked they want a lot more of it.

    Farewell Singapore on Humber. Welcome the new incarnation of post WWII social democracy.

    This will add interest and clarity to the election run up, which is the whole of the next four years.
    Of course if we followed low tax Singapore our employers NI rate would be 17%.
    And 85% of people would rent their homes.
    Right wing types are often keen to point to Singapore as inspiration for all sorts of policies they like but go strangely quiet when you point out that the whole system rests on state-run housing for the vast majority of Singaporeans.

    Council housing for everyone isn’t really part of their vision it turns out.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,769
    Scott_xP said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    He's (still) running
    "Weird Turkish barber shops". I've never witnessed anything like that at Waverley or Queen Street. A London thing?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,577
    @hzeffman

    A really fascinating nugget from my colleagues Oscar Bentley and Peter Barnes — the Conservatives have kept losing councillors since the locals.

    In fact since we wrote this (yesterday) they’ve lost three more

    https://x.com/hzeffman/status/1928006375876997494
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,755

    Eabhal said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    Grim and grisly paradox.

    The more we make the state efficient, by withdrawing services from those who are comfortable enough to not need them, the worse the cost: benefit analysis looks for most voters. This is starkest for local councils, most of which provide expensive social care for a small number of people, a shrinking bin collection service and not much else. It's not a good value proposition.

    But, unless we are prepared to kick such people out of the tent and hope that the huskies will pull us to safety, there's not a lot to be done. People are people, no matter how expensive.
    I think health inequality is going to doom the NHS too. Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick.

    And crime. The police have efficiently allocated their resources to violent crime, but that primarily effects people living in areas with high deprivation. Meanwhile my bicycle or phone gets nicked and nothing is done about it.

    The one area this isn't true is transport, with massive cuts to bus services while motoring gets cheaper and trains get heavily subsidised.
    'Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick'.

    So when you become a pensioner or unfortunately chronic sick how would you address the problem ?
    This is the problem. Same with decrying 'benefit scroungers' - same people decrying would expect support if something happened to them to make them unable to work.
    We can disarm this entire row by going after the problem at source. Despite the endless right wing weaponised ignorance, much of the "benefits" paid to "scroungers" are UC paid in work because wages don't pay the bills.

    Despite occasional left wing whines about BigCo not paying taxes, it isn't practical to expect employers to increase wages by 20% - we need to go after the cost of living and reduce it.

    And the two biggies are Housing and Energy.
    1) Decouple rent from market prices. We can smash the landlord scam by offering social housing at viable rents. Private sector landlords will be put out of business which floods their properties back onto the market which knocks the wind out of prices. Empower LHAs to build more social housing never for market sale thus rents not needing to be market priced.
    2) Decouple energy costs from the market. A quick glance at Gridwatch shows 61% of today's demand is from wind and solar, yet we're priced based on gas imports (gas is 5% today and some of that will be domestic). Price our own energy based on much of it being renewable and thus free to generate*

    Thats a big start on the journey.

    *Yes, free. There are maintenance costs. But that is also true of power generation which burns something you have to pay for such as gas - with far fewer parts to maintain
    You might be surprised to learn i don't disagree with any of that . I particularly don't disagree around social housing
  • Let’s whack taxes up for millionaire pensioners. See how they like it especially those that are winging about the WFA.

    There aren’t that many “millionaire pensioners” - unless you are talking about the assets that fund their pensions.

    Note that state pension is the equivalent of a £250k pot of money.

    I keep saying it -

    1) merge NI and income tax
    2) pensioners get special lower rate that equals just income tax. But the full wack of the new tax bands at the higher rate. So pensioners on £50k+ pensions pay more tax.
    3) pensioner benefits are not means tested - but taxable.
    4) lock the pension to the personal tax allowance.
    5) get rid of the silly cliff, withdrawals etc.

    The result will be cheaper to run, massively reduce the opportunities for fraud and raise more money.
    Fully agreed.

    Tell the poor pensioners to eat fewer avocados, that’s what they’ve been telling working people for a decade.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,813
    To be fair it is only a majority of Labour and LD voters who want taxes to go up to fund public services. Even most of them would probably rather a wealth tax on the rich or higher income tax at the additional rate of income tax than their own taxes go up
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,636

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    Up at Stratford by the look of it. Well, yes, he's not wrong but simply moaning about it is one thing, coming up with a practical, costed solution is quite another.

    Short of having British Transport Police on constant duty at every station (and those determined to evade will travel to quieter stations because that's what they do - example, there's a strong revenue protection and security presence at Barking so those wanting to evade get off a stop earlier at Woodgrange Park where there's no one) and who pays for that, the answer is much harder than it might appear.

    He thinks 4% of journeys are fraudulent - I suspect in some places it's a fair bit higher. TfL will know the problem stations.

    As for all the other things he whinges on about, well, his lot had 14 years in charge - what did they do about any of it? Nothing - instead, they wasted time, effort and money on the European Union.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,263
    edited May 29
    Every problem / solution ultimately comes down to growth. Without sustained growth there is no real long term answer.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,813

    Let’s whack taxes up for millionaire pensioners. See how they like it especially those that are winging about the WFA.

    There aren’t that many “millionaire pensioners” - unless you are talking about the assets that fund their pensions.

    Note that state pension is the equivalent of a £250k pot of money.

    I keep saying it -

    1) merge NI and income tax
    2) pensioners get special lower rate that equals just income tax. But the full wack of the new tax bands at the higher rate. So pensioners on £50k+ pensions pay more tax.
    3) pensioner benefits are not means tested - but taxable.
    4) lock the pension to the personal tax allowance.
    5) get rid of the silly cliff, withdrawals etc.

    The result will be cheaper to run, massively reduce the opportunities for fraud and raise more money.
    No NI should be ringfenced for the state pension, contributory unemployment JSA etc as it was set up for
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,263
    edited May 29

    Let’s whack taxes up for millionaire pensioners. See how they like it especially those that are winging about the WFA.

    There aren’t that many “millionaire pensioners” - unless you are talking about the assets that fund their pensions.

    Note that state pension is the equivalent of a £250k pot of money.

    I keep saying it -

    1) merge NI and income tax
    2) pensioners get special lower rate that equals just income tax. But the full wack of the new tax bands at the higher rate. So pensioners on £50k+ pensions pay more tax.
    3) pensioner benefits are not means tested - but taxable.
    4) lock the pension to the personal tax allowance.
    5) get rid of the silly cliff, withdrawals etc.

    The result will be cheaper to run, massively reduce the opportunities for fraud and raise more money.
    The Tories should have done this in 2010, 15 years later we don't seem to he any closer. Thr cliff edges remain and talk of merging NI / IC seem to have been totally lost in the long grass in which it to booted to
  • You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,832
    edited May 29
    Good Morning, everybody.

    Musing on the header, which I'd skimmed through before starting on my morning exercises (designed by an NHS physio to give me a little more mobility, possibly even unaided) two memories popped into my mind. One was an aphorism I read my tears ago, but which over the years served me well: Rules are for the observance of fools and the guidance of wise men'. The other was a dim memory from A level physics 70 years ago, Hookes Law, about springs which I recall works very well under normal circumstances but which falls down when the spring is tested to destruction.

    There was also a comment about waste of money on repeat prescriptions. Many years ago a colleague of mine checked the actual use of medicines he supplied to a care home and discovered he could make significant savings by careful monitoring. He went to the then relevant NHS body and pointed out that he could make quite substantial savings if he did this regularly with both care homes and individuals, and asked the NHS body how much they would pay him if he did. The reply was 'nothing'!
    Some years later I was actually doing similar work for a group of Care Homes. and had quite an argument with a branch of a major pharmacy multiple because they were over-supplying a Home, and making no representations to the prescribing GP's.
    From my own, more recent, experience as a consume the situation has not changed today.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,263
    edited May 29

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    If I was Labour and wondered how to regain some popularity, make it absolute top priority that all these shitty crimes are tracked down and punished.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,755
    stodge said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    Up at Stratford by the look of it. Well, yes, he's not wrong but simply moaning about it is one thing, coming up with a practical, costed solution is quite another.

    Short of having British Transport Police on constant duty at every station (and those determined to evade will travel to quieter stations because that's what they do - example, there's a strong revenue protection and security presence at Barking so those wanting to evade get off a stop earlier at Woodgrange Park where there's no one) and who pays for that, the answer is much harder than it might appear.

    He thinks 4% of journeys are fraudulent - I suspect in some places it's a fair bit higher. TfL will know the problem stations.

    As for all the other things he whinges on about, well, his lot had 14 years in charge - what did they do about any of it? Nothing - instead, they wasted time, effort and money on the European Union.
    He clearly sees some merit in going after the 'shock jock' type vote. 'This guy gets it because he did a vid' etc etc
    It probably will garner some support. But, of course, it does not address the problem as you say.
    It's a common problem with modern politics. Another version of set piece speeches that offer heat but no light or sloganeering like 'smash the gangs'. Or my personal bugbear 'fully costed' - saying it does not make it so

    Sorry, that's just a list of things that irritate me in politics..... oh well
  • UK Gov to build two reservoirs by taking over the planning process. Good, more of this.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,041
    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Everyone Is for that till the bill rolls in . My council tax is already circa 400. That's more than enough.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,755

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,457
    edited May 29

    theProle said:

    Curse of a new thread (wrote half this post then got called in with my wife for baby 2's 20 week scan)

    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:



    I 100% agree that the rise in National Insurance - which hits the poorest and discourages employment - is monumentally stupid.

    We want to maximize the number of people in work, and reduce the barriers to employment for those with the fewest skills, and NI is a disastrous tax on this group.

    No - employer's National Insurance doesn't hit the poorest disproportionately, if at all. The poorest, those on benefits, don't feel it except very indirectly and partially through a generalised rise in prices. Those in informal employment may actually benefit from an increase in demand for their services as formal employment becomes more expensive. And those on very low, part-time wages won't feel it at all and again may experience an increase in employment because it doesn't kick in until £5,000-12,000/year, depending on your national insurance category.

    It's everybody else, not the poorest, that will mostly suffer from it.
    Wait.

    So, you are seriously telling me that increasing employer's NIC from 13.8% to 15%, and reducing the threshold to £5,000/year doesn’t massively affect the likelihood of low-productivity workers finding gainful employment? That defies basic economic logic.

    Firms hire based on whether the value a worker adds exceeds their total cost. For low-productivity workers (those in roles with marginal economic output), then raising the non-wage cost of employment makes them less attractive to hire. (This can easily be seen by looking at the fact that countries like France, with high social charges, effectively create an underclass of the unemployable, because their cost of employment can't possible equal their economic output.)

    So no, it’s not "everybody else" that suffers: it’s disproportionately the people trying to take the first rung on the employment ladder.
    No.

    You need to read how employer's NI works. It's the lowest productivity workers, mostly those that are trying to take the first step on the employment ladder (those in NI categories H, M and Z) that get the £12,500 thresholds, not the £5,000 allowances that everybody else gets, precisely for this reason. So it affects them proportionately much less, if at all.

    And as I say, the poorest, those on benefits, won't suffer much.

    So it's absolutely everybody else who suffers, and the low productivity workers, though they will no doubt suffer, will suffer proportionately less. And as I say may benefit marginally if they're in the black economy.

    The best thing the government can do to help the most vulnerable into employment is scrap the scandalously high minimum wage.
    The people who really need help into the workforce are not the really young. They are people like the guy I've just taken on.

    30ish, chequered working history - never held down a job for more than about 6 months. Did a year of uni and dropped out, then back into a cycle of short term minimum wage jobs interspersed with periods on benefits.

    The job centre sent him to college for a welding and fabrication course. That was a complete waste of tax payers money, he couldn't weld when he turned up with us - he improved dramatically after a 5 minute lesson from me, and I'm not really a welder (I'd not pass a proper coded weld test, although I'm capable of snotting jigs and fixtures together).

    Ultimately I'm probably his ideal employer - I'll tolerate a degree of haphazard unreliablility, so long as he works hard when he turns up. If he applies himself and doesn't completely blot his copybook, he'll probably be on £30-40k in a year or two. Or he'll be back at the dole office, and I'll be wondering why I bothered.

    In terms of sane NI policy, giving employers a year off employers NI for new full-time employees who were on Universal Credit would probably be a fairly cheap incentive to take on more "risky" employees.

    Meanwhile, if Big Ange pushes through workers rights from day one, I'll never take a risk on an hire again - it's only the fact that I can dump this chap without going through an elaborate legal process that makes the risk worth taking.
    Some of my Labour friends get enraged by this, but they simply don't understand how important it is. As a recruiting manager I've had times where I've only been able to get the role signed off by pointing out that we have 2 years of flexibility with regards to cutting the role if we need to.

    No flexibility, no job.
    Classic example of the present labour party who have no concept or experience of running a business

    I am only too pleased to be retired from business, having run 2 successful businesses with happy and content staff who to this day are considered friends, without the absurd red tape and over burdensome control by government

    There is a place for legislation especially in work place safety but Reeves's budget and Rayner's bill are as anti business as you can get
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,813

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    Most OECD nations have health insurance without a US style system
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,664

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
  • PJHPJH Posts: 852

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    More precisely, he is criticising the outcome of the policies his own government pursued for 14 years.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,550
    theProle said:

    Curse of a new thread (wrote half this post then got called in with my wife for baby 2's 20 week scan)

    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:



    I 100% agree that the rise in National Insurance - which hits the poorest and discourages employment - is monumentally stupid.

    We want to maximize the number of people in work, and reduce the barriers to employment for those with the fewest skills, and NI is a disastrous tax on this group.

    No - employer's National Insurance doesn't hit the poorest disproportionately, if at all. The poorest, those on benefits, don't feel it except very indirectly and partially through a generalised rise in prices. Those in informal employment may actually benefit from an increase in demand for their services as formal employment becomes more expensive. And those on very low, part-time wages won't feel it at all and again may experience an increase in employment because it doesn't kick in until £5,000-12,000/year, depending on your national insurance category.

    It's everybody else, not the poorest, that will mostly suffer from it.
    Wait.

    So, you are seriously telling me that increasing employer's NIC from 13.8% to 15%, and reducing the threshold to £5,000/year doesn’t massively affect the likelihood of low-productivity workers finding gainful employment? That defies basic economic logic.

    Firms hire based on whether the value a worker adds exceeds their total cost. For low-productivity workers (those in roles with marginal economic output), then raising the non-wage cost of employment makes them less attractive to hire. (This can easily be seen by looking at the fact that countries like France, with high social charges, effectively create an underclass of the unemployable, because their cost of employment can't possible equal their economic output.)

    So no, it’s not "everybody else" that suffers: it’s disproportionately the people trying to take the first rung on the employment ladder.
    No.

    You need to read how employer's NI works. It's the lowest productivity workers, mostly those that are trying to take the first step on the employment ladder (those in NI categories H, M and Z) that get the £12,500 thresholds, not the £5,000 allowances that everybody else gets, precisely for this reason. So it affects them proportionately much less, if at all.

    And as I say, the poorest, those on benefits, won't suffer much.

    So it's absolutely everybody else who suffers, and the low productivity workers, though they will no doubt suffer, will suffer proportionately less. And as I say may benefit marginally if they're in the black economy.

    The best thing the government can do to help the most vulnerable into employment is scrap the scandalously high minimum wage.
    The people who really need help into the workforce are not the really young. They are people like the guy I've just taken on.

    30ish, chequered working history - never held down a job for more than about 6 months. Did a year of uni and dropped out, then back into a cycle of short term minimum wage jobs interspersed with periods on benefits.

    The job centre sent him to college for a welding and fabrication course. That was a complete waste of tax payers money, he couldn't weld when he turned up with us - he improved dramatically after a 5 minute lesson from me, and I'm not really a welder (I'd not pass a proper coded weld test, although I'm capable of snotting jigs and fixtures together).

    Ultimately I'm probably his ideal employer - I'll tolerate a degree of haphazard unreliablility, so long as he works hard when he turns up. If he applies himself and doesn't completely blot his copybook, he'll probably be on £30-40k in a year or two. Or he'll be back at the dole office, and I'll be wondering why I bothered.

    In terms of sane NI policy, giving employers a year off employers NI for new full-time employees who were on Universal Credit would probably be a fairly cheap incentive to take on more "risky" employees.

    Meanwhile, if Big Ange pushes through workers rights from day one, I'll never take a risk on an hire again - it's only the fact that I can dump this chap without going through an elaborate legal process that makes the risk worth taking.
    Not only is she going to push it through, after all it is popular, or at least it polls well at the moment, but they are looking at this as a dividing line with Reform, as a wedge issue.

    Seen plenty of ‘Reform vote against workers rights bill, they are not on your side’ takes from Labour sorts.

    Good luck. The country needs more people like you.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,070

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,772
    The U.S. being a rather litigious society, if US businesses have suffered consequential losses due to unlawful tariffs, might Uncle Sam be on the hook for damages?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,263
    edited May 29

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,755
    PJH said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    More precisely, he is criticising the outcome of the policies his own government pursued for 14 years.
    Yes. But then I guess you get the pivot to 'and we paid at the ballot box and we've listened and learned' bollocks. Which, again, will have some limited appeal - specifically to those looking for a reason to pivot back to the Tories or encourage those that sat out 2024.
    None of which makes it of any use.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,446

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1927999808284893368

    Full credit Robert.

    Great work.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,769
    edited May 29
    A
    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,070

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,755

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    Well that wouldn't make for much of a 'isnt it all so awful/vote for me' video!
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,772

    UK Gov to build two reservoirs by taking over the planning process. Good, more of this.

    I am not an expert, but won’t it also require some diggers and some pipework?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,263
    edited May 29

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    And then people will smash the gates.....we can go round and round like this. See how shops have added shuttering, bollards, etc etc etc. And so they just come with angle grinders, JCBs.

    The way you minimise it is you track people down and you punish them. Singapore has none of these problems, because everybody knows the state will find you and they will punish you. No ifs, no buts.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,755
    edited May 29

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    https://x.com/rupertlowe10/status/1927999808284893368

    Full credit Robert.

    Great work.
    As I said yesterday, Rupert and Jenrick had lunch last Thursday and Rupert has let it be known he is not averse to joining the Tories.
    Presumably if Jenrick is installed

    Edit- note also yesterday Lowe launched an attack on...... 'Labour, Reform and the Lib Dems'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,796
    .
    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    I'm not sure about that.
    Can you cite those studies ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,577

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    My uncle lived in a posh flat in Glasgow, and somebody shimmied up the rone pipe and broke in. After that he installed some razor wire on the pipe. Then the council came round and told him to take it down "in case somebody got hurt"
Sign In or Register to comment.