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Something for Labour to ponder – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,827
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    I don't use the Tube much, but I'm coming to the end of a six month driving ban, so I've been using the overground lines a lot. Without a ticket, you'd have to show proof of payment, to the inspectors. The two lines I uses most (either from Luton, or Hitchin), seem to have regular sweeps for fare dodgers.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,412

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    If I was Labour and wondered how to regain some popularity, make it absolute top priority that all these shitty crimes are tracked down and punished.
    There's a thread on Reddit where someone has had their phone stolen and tracked it to the location that the police then refuse to investigate. In the thread two other people claim to have also tracked their phones to the same place.

    Apparently the law is changing soon to allow the police to act on such tracking reports. They should be able to make a lot more arrests for such crime in future, and I expect it to be popular.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,827

    I can hardly criticise Starmer and Kemi for reading my posts on PB about how to easily shred up Farage and Reform into little pieces.

    From zero immigration to better spending giveaways than all other parties - all paid for by cutting spending that’s not needed - Reform are on a painful ride back to obscurity. 😁

    A mid term opinion poll isn’t “who do you trust to manage the economy.” Mid term local elections in the Shires isn’t “who do you trust to manage the economy.”

    Reforms best hope of avoiding shredding in next General Election is a Truss style collapse under Labour in the next few years, to level the playing field.
    If Reform overtake the Conservatives, in terms of local government, Scottish Parliament, London Assembly, and Senedd, representation, then it's going to be very hard for the Tories to persuade people they are not a wasted vote, come 2029.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    glw said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    If I was Labour and wondered how to regain some popularity, make it absolute top priority that all these shitty crimes are tracked down and punished.
    There's a thread on Reddit where someone has had their phone stolen and tracked it to the location that the police then refuse to investigate. In the thread two other people claim to have also tracked their phones to the same place.

    Apparently the law is changing soon to allow the police to act on such tracking reports. They should be able to make a lot more arrests for such crime in future, and I expect it to be popular.
    How did we reach a stage where the law does NOT allow police to act on such info?!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,687
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    What a load of nonsense. Anyone travelling from outside of London to London which I do regularly, will have a ticket when using the underground and the numbers are significant.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    As it happens I went throughStratford station last weekend to accompany my disabled brother and wife to the playoff final at Wembley, so we made good use of the Jublilee and Central lines. I can only report kindness and assistance from TFL staff and fellow passengers alike. If there was widespread evasion of fares it wasn't obvious, but maybe Orient and Charlton supporters are exceptionally law abiding.

    This is of course merely an anecdote, but no more or less so than Jenrick's little publicity stunt.
    You don’t live in London

    I do - at least part of the time. I see shoplifting almost daily and I am now beginning to see fare dodging
    I don't want to stir up a barrage of abuse like last time, but at least some of this is confirmation bias. You're now looking for these crimes, and now see it everywhere.

    I'm exactly the same with phone use at the wheel. Never used to notice it but now...

    This does not mean it's not politically toxic. Now that the zeitgeist has materialised, everyone else will go through the same mental change for these petty crimes too. I think it could happen with drug driving after Liverpool as well.
    You stirred up a barrage of abuse because you flat out lied. You claimed shoplifting is no worse than it
    was 10 years ago, and you did this in a chortling tone

    You were then shown hard data proving it has risen ten fold
    That’s only the reported incidents, presumably.

    A fair bit goes unreported. They know they will only get a crime number.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,796
    Andy_JS said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    No, I do understand politics - I've done it, I know how it works.

    It's a good video on a political level because it addresses people's basic concerns whether it be fare evasion or shoplifting.

    It's also worth pointing out he doesn't offer any solutions - it's all moaning and complaining which is fair enough but political debate has to be more than identifying problems - it has to involve solutions.

    We heard nothing coherent from your mate Farage yesterday - Jenrick offers nothing coherent in that video.
    Solutions? The solution is to arrest and prosecute the people who do it.
    But that's not a cost-free solution. I don't know what the cost is, but I'm confident that it will be quite a bit more than the evaded fare. It's not a nice conclusion, but it's understandable why fare dodgers and transport operators act the way they do.

    So who is paying for it? Otherwise, it's another "vote for free owls" thing.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,500
    edited May 29
    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,779
    edited May 29
    Taz said:

    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
    Numerous times on local Facebook groups when there’s a shoplifting incident people will complain security don’t do anything. But, as you say, why would they risk being stabbed for a bottle of 19 Crimes wine.

    More often than not security is there more as a deterrent, that’s all.

    The shoplifters are more brazen too. This came up on my Twitter feed.

    I’m sure nothing will happen.

    https://x.com/crimeldn/status/1927317848583532905?s=61

    We have security at our local Tesco. Didn’t stop three kids going in the shop on bikes and riding around the aisles. Stuff like that doesn’t even get reported to Plod. I wouldn’t have believed it but my neighbour was in the store at the time.
    This is one issue with increasing ticket inspections. The staff won't go near the young man in a hoodie for fear of getting stabbed, but will hammer the female Asian student who has just arrived for uni and has no idea what she is doing.

    It was a really big issue in Australia when I was there because the inspectors have a daily quota they have to meet.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,814
    Sean_F said:

    I can hardly criticise Starmer and Kemi for reading my posts on PB about how to easily shred up Farage and Reform into little pieces.

    From zero immigration to better spending giveaways than all other parties - all paid for by cutting spending that’s not needed - Reform are on a painful ride back to obscurity. 😁

    A mid term opinion poll isn’t “who do you trust to manage the economy.” Mid term local elections in the Shires isn’t “who do you trust to manage the economy.”

    Reforms best hope of avoiding shredding in next General Election is a Truss style collapse under Labour in the next few years, to level the playing field.
    If Reform overtake the Conservatives, in terms of local government, Scottish Parliament, London Assembly, and Senedd, representation, then it's going to be very hard for the Tories to persuade people they are not a wasted vote, come 2029.
    If that happened next May Kemi would not last the year anyway, with most likely Cleverly, Jenrick or Stride replacing her (assuming Boris was not back in the Commons by then).

    In seats like mine in 2024 the Tories and Reform were the top 2, so here you might even get Labour and LD voters tactically voting Tory to keep out Farage
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,724
    edited May 29
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    What a load of nonsense. Anyone travelling from outside of London to London which I do regularly, will have a ticket when using the underground and the numbers are significant.
    No one who is Leon of course, which is the most important metric.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    edited May 29
    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.
    At its root we need a situation where that happens because that is the basis of British Policing. And if we abandon the Peelian Principles, which are the basis of our claim to "policing by consent", then we are into something else, such as adopting a French or other approach.

    To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. *

    And because we need our police personnel to be safe, we would need to be clear that we are changing that philosophy if it becomes untenable.

    I think an alternative would cost a lot more money; we have notably low numbers of police by international comparison.

    * https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/policing-by-consent/definition-of-policing-by-consent
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,814
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Can’t wait till we get to the stage of Bobby J. Pointing at dog shit (which coincidentally embodies his putsch against the malfunctioning Kembot).
    Actually, Mark Pack has a blog called "Lib Dems pointing at things", which is modestly amusing.

    https://www.libdemspointing.co.uk/

    I quite the chap in the second photo who has a bit of the "Douglas Hurd" * about him, very straight back et al.

    * Alan Clark once remarked that Douglas Hurd deported himself as if a corncob had been accidentally inserted in his fundament.
    Had Hurd to speak when I was at uni, he was excellent, polite and spoke very well on his experience of foreign policy and at the Home Office. The Tories could do with a big beast like him again now.

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,295
    edited May 29

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,707
    edited May 29
    I'm listening to the Al Murray/James Holland podcast "We Have Ways of Making You Talk", and they are talking about an interesting book "Blue Jerusalem", about the Conservative Party during WW2 and its plans for post-war British politics and Britain. It looks good
    Hardback only. Sadly not available in paperback
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,814

    We need BTP sectioned at every station especially at peak times.

    Fare dodging and breach of railway bye laws are primarily a matter for station staff, TfL can even bring their own prosecutions in the magistrates court for breach of their bye laws
  • novanova Posts: 832
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    If I was Labour and wondered how to regain some popularity, make it absolute top priority that all these shitty crimes are tracked down and punished.
    There's a thread on Reddit where someone has had their phone stolen and tracked it to the location that the police then refuse to investigate. In the thread two other people claim to have also tracked their phones to the same place.

    Apparently the law is changing soon to allow the police to act on such tracking reports. They should be able to make a lot more arrests for such crime in future, and I expect it to be popular.
    How did we reach a stage where the law does NOT allow police to act on such info?!
    Assume you'll be cheering for Keir when you see the rest of the Crime and Policing Bill ;)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,500

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
    Why are you holding a press conference about Nigel Farage 4 years out of an election?
  • glwglw Posts: 10,412
    edited May 29
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    If I was Labour and wondered how to regain some popularity, make it absolute top priority that all these shitty crimes are tracked down and punished.
    There's a thread on Reddit where someone has had their phone stolen and tracked it to the location that the police then refuse to investigate. In the thread two other people claim to have also tracked their phones to the same place.

    Apparently the law is changing soon to allow the police to act on such tracking reports. They should be able to make a lot more arrests for such crime in future, and I expect it to be popular.
    How did we reach a stage where the law does NOT allow police to act on such info?!
    I genuinely don't understand why it is not enough to say "my phone was stolen but thanks to the wonders of modern technology I know where it is". It's not as though the victim is guessing and wasting police time, they are basically saying "it's right here or bloody close could you please go and get it". I honestly think the pathetic police response annoys people as much as the theft itself.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,842
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
    Numerous times on local Facebook groups when there’s a shoplifting incident people will complain security don’t do anything. But, as you say, why would they risk being stabbed for a bottle of 19 Crimes wine.

    More often than not security is there more as a deterrent, that’s all.

    The shoplifters are more brazen too. This came up on my Twitter feed.

    I’m sure nothing will happen.

    https://x.com/crimeldn/status/1927317848583532905?s=61

    We have security at our local Tesco. Didn’t stop three kids going in the shop on bikes and riding around the aisles. Stuff like that doesn’t even get reported to Plod. I wouldn’t have believed it but my neighbour was in the store at the time.
    This is one issue with increasing ticket inspections. The staff won't go near the young man in a hoodie for fear of getting stabbed, but will hammer the female Asian student who has just arrived for uni and has no idea what she is doing.

    It was a really big issue in Australia when I was there because the inspectors have a daily quota they have to meet.
    Why would a "female Asian student who has just arrived for uni" shoplift and how often does it happen?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    edited May 29
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    You’re right and certainly round by me people are tired of the low level anti social behaviour and petty criminality that blights our town. You’re right, Reform get it. The others are just empty words. Of course Reform may very well be the same. We have plenty of people here who have the ability to see the future as they have determined already they will fail. We will see.

    However when the other parties have just delivered more of the same and just talk down to your community is it any surprise people look to someone who doesn’t.
    I think you are correct that Reform say some things that parts of the public want to hear, but they have said both sides of most things at some point, and Farage is a flim-flam man with neither principles nor policy.

    If voters follow through with supporting Reform they will have an MOT-failed Vauxhall Viva from people who promised to supply them them a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,687
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    I don't use the Tube much, but I'm coming to the end of a six month driving ban, so I've been using the overground lines a lot. Without a ticket, you'd have to show proof of payment, to the inspectors. The two lines I uses most (either from Luton, or Hitchin), seem to have regular sweeps for fare dodgers.
    I am checked most times on my line into and out of London. I have never been checked on the underground, but I assume that is because I have to go through a barrier (I don't on much of the overground). So the fare dodging on the underground is at the barrier. On my last trip to UCL someone was caught at Vauxhall at the barrier.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,842
    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Can’t wait till we get to the stage of Bobby J. Pointing at dog shit (which coincidentally embodies his putsch against the malfunctioning Kembot).
    Actually, Mark Pack has a blog called "Lib Dems pointing at things", which is modestly amusing.

    https://www.libdemspointing.co.uk/

    I quite the chap in the second photo who has a bit of the "Douglas Hurd" * about him, very straight back et al.

    * Alan Clark once remarked that Douglas Hurd deported himself as if a corncob had been accidentally inserted in his fundament.
    Had Hurd to speak when I was at uni, he was excellent, polite and spoke very well on his experience of foreign policy and at the Home Office. The Tories could do with a big beast like him again now.

    Thank Boris for expelling Hurd's 'successors'.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,779
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    As it happens I went throughStratford station last weekend to accompany my disabled brother and wife to the playoff final at Wembley, so we made good use of the Jublilee and Central lines. I can only report kindness and assistance from TFL staff and fellow passengers alike. If there was widespread evasion of fares it wasn't obvious, but maybe Orient and Charlton supporters are exceptionally law abiding.

    This is of course merely an anecdote, but no more or less so than Jenrick's little publicity stunt.
    You don’t live in London

    I do - at least part of the time. I see shoplifting almost daily and I am now beginning to see fare dodging
    I don't want to stir up a barrage of abuse like last time, but at least some of this is confirmation bias. You're now looking for these crimes, and now see it everywhere.

    I'm exactly the same with phone use at the wheel. Never used to notice it but now...

    This does not mean it's not politically toxic. Now that the zeitgeist has materialised, everyone else will go through the same mental change for these petty crimes too. I think it could happen with drug driving after Liverpool as well.
    You stirred up a barrage of abuse because you flat out lied. You claimed shoplifting is no worse than it
    was 10 years ago, and you did this in a chortling tone

    You were then shown hard data proving it has risen ten fold
    My lived experience is just as valid as yours ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    What a load of nonsense. Anyone travelling from outside of London to London which I do regularly, will have a ticket when using the underground and the numbers are significant.
    What do I care of these pungent bumpkins from “outside London”? Ugh
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,451
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    If I was Labour and wondered how to regain some popularity, make it absolute top priority that all these shitty crimes are tracked down and punished.
    There's a thread on Reddit where someone has had their phone stolen and tracked it to the location that the police then refuse to investigate. In the thread two other people claim to have also tracked their phones to the same place.

    Apparently the law is changing soon to allow the police to act on such tracking reports. They should be able to make a lot more arrests for such crime in future, and I expect it to be popular.
    How did we reach a stage where the law does NOT allow police to act on such info?!
    I genuinely don't understand why it is not enough to say "my phone was stolen but thanks to the wonders of modern technology I know where it is". It's not as though the victim is guessing and wasting police time, they are basically saying "it's right here or bloody close could you please go and get it". I honestly think the pathetic police response annoys people as much as the theft itself.
    There's a strange attitude where the police actually taking any kind of action is conflated with vigilantism.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
    Why are you holding a press conference about Nigel Farage 4 years out of an election?
    Because he is irredeemably dreadful in every imaginable way.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,487
    MattW said:



    If voters follow through with supporting Reform they will have an MOT-failed Vauxhall Viva from people who promised to supply them them a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud.

    That's a magnificently anachronistic car analogy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    What a load of nonsense. Anyone travelling from outside of London to London which I do regularly, will have a ticket when using the underground and the numbers are significant.
    No one who is Leon of course, which is the most important metric.
    Thankyou. Finally some sense on PB and it’s only just noon
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,295
    edited May 29

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
    Why are you holding a press conference about Nigel Farage 4 years out of an election?
    Why? To take the focus to Reforms massive weaknesses is why. 😊

    Taking these twisted hostile questions from press pack and answering them well and confidently as this, is the very nub of politics. If you can’t do this you shouldn’t go into politics.

    Nigel Farage can’t do what Starmer just done. Can you imagine Farage exposing himself to this scrutiny on his policy and economic black hole running into £100B’s, and not getting shirty or having a car crash?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,779

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
    Numerous times on local Facebook groups when there’s a shoplifting incident people will complain security don’t do anything. But, as you say, why would they risk being stabbed for a bottle of 19 Crimes wine.

    More often than not security is there more as a deterrent, that’s all.

    The shoplifters are more brazen too. This came up on my Twitter feed.

    I’m sure nothing will happen.

    https://x.com/crimeldn/status/1927317848583532905?s=61

    We have security at our local Tesco. Didn’t stop three kids going in the shop on bikes and riding around the aisles. Stuff like that doesn’t even get reported to Plod. I wouldn’t have believed it but my neighbour was in the store at the time.
    This is one issue with increasing ticket inspections. The staff won't go near the young man in a hoodie for fear of getting stabbed, but will hammer the female Asian student who has just arrived for uni and has no idea what she is doing.

    It was a really big issue in Australia when I was there because the inspectors have a daily quota they have to meet.
    Why would a "female Asian student who has just arrived for uni" shoplift and how often does it happen?
    All the time - about 1/3rd of people steal stuff via self-checkouts, and the error rate is pretty high too.

    On tickets, it's usually people fraudulently or accidentally not having a Railcard, or using an off-peak ticket at peak periods. That's who the ticket inspectors target, not the gate jumpers.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    What a load of nonsense. Anyone travelling from outside of London to London which I do regularly, will have a ticket when using the underground and the numbers are significant.
    What do I care of these pungent bumpkins from “outside London”? Ugh
    London is a real place? I thought it was made up to scare us country mice
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
    Why are you holding a press conference about Nigel Farage 4 years out of an election?
    Taking these twisted hostile questions from press pack and answering them well and confidently as this, is the very nub of politics. If you can’t do this you shouldn’t go into politics.

    Nigel Farage can’t do what Starmer just done. Can you imagine Farage exposing himself to this scrutiny on his policy and not getting shirty or having a car crash?
    He took 18 unscripted press questions yesterday........
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,500
    edited May 29

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
    Why are you holding a press conference about Nigel Farage 4 years out of an election?
    Taking these twisted hostile questions from press pack and answering them well and confidently as this, is the very nub of politics. If you can’t do this you shouldn’t go into politics.

    Nigel Farage can’t do what Starmer just done. Can you imagine Farage exposing himself to this scrutiny on his policy and not getting shirty or having a car crash?
    Actually yes

    He did it yesterday

    And I do not support Farage at all

    And Starmer's answers were nonsense
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,307
    Also, this doesn't make clear the consequences of failing to stick to fiscal rules, including higher interest rates, debt payments and a potential insolvency crisis. Which would then lead to even higher taxes and spending cuts.

    It's not about bureaucratic neatness.
  • novanova Posts: 832

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
    Why are you holding a press conference about Nigel Farage 4 years out of an election?
    I'm confused - I thought we were told that Farage was the most important thing to happen in politics for years.

    I can see the argument for just ignoring him if he was polling 2%, but his party are well ahead in the polls, and people are talking about him as the next PM. May as well see how he stands up to a bit of scrutiny surely?
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
    Numerous times on local Facebook groups when there’s a shoplifting incident people will complain security don’t do anything. But, as you say, why would they risk being stabbed for a bottle of 19 Crimes wine.

    More often than not security is there more as a deterrent, that’s all.

    The shoplifters are more brazen too. This came up on my Twitter feed.

    I’m sure nothing will happen.

    https://x.com/crimeldn/status/1927317848583532905?s=61

    We have security at our local Tesco. Didn’t stop three kids going in the shop on bikes and riding around the aisles. Stuff like that doesn’t even get reported to Plod. I wouldn’t have believed it but my neighbour was in the store at the time.
    This is one issue with increasing ticket inspections. The staff won't go near the young man in a hoodie for fear of getting stabbed, but will hammer the female Asian student who has just arrived for uni and has no idea what she is doing.

    It was a really big issue in Australia when I was there because the inspectors have a daily quota they have to meet.
    You’re absolutely right and I’ve seen it first hand a couple of times.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    As it happens I went through Stratford station last weekend to accompany my disabled brother and wife to the playoff final at Wembley, so we made good use of the Jublilee and Central lines. I can only report kindness and assistance from TFL staff and fellow passengers alike. If there was widespread evasion of fares it wasn't obvious, but maybe Orient and Charlton supporters are exceptionally law abiding.

    This is of course merely an anecdote, but no more or less so than Jenrick's little publicity stunt.
    You don’t live in London

    I do - at least part of the time. I see shoplifting almost daily and I am now beginning to see fare dodging
    I don't want to stir up a barrage of abuse like last time, but at least some of this is confirmation bias. You're now looking for these crimes, and now see it everywhere.

    I'm exactly the same with phone use at the wheel. Never used to notice it but now...

    This does not mean it's not politically toxic. Now that the zeitgeist has materialised, everyone else will go through the same mental change for these petty crimes too. I think it could happen with drug driving after Liverpool as well.
    Shoplifting, though, is relatively measurable.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/303563/shoplifting-in-england-and-wales-uk-y-on-y/
    Last year, the reported numbers cracked 500k.

    No doubt Leon exaggerates - that is his normal mode of discourse - but I don't think you can deny things have gone the wrong way.

    Again, Starmer is unlikely to match any Jenrick style shithousery. His only option is actually to shift the numbers in the opposite direction.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
    Why are you holding a press conference about Nigel Farage 4 years out of an election?
    Why? To take the focus to Reforms massive weaknesses is why. 😊

    Taking these twisted hostile questions from press pack and answering them well and confidently as this, is the very nub of politics. If you can’t do this you shouldn’t go into politics.

    Nigel Farage can’t do what Starmer just done. Can you imagine Farage exposing himself to this scrutiny on his policy and economic black hole running into £100B’s, and not getting shirty or having a car crash?
    He literally did it 24 hours previously 😂
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    If I was Labour and wondered how to regain some popularity, make it absolute top priority that all these shitty crimes are tracked down and punished.
    There's a thread on Reddit where someone has had their phone stolen and tracked it to the location that the police then refuse to investigate. In the thread two other people claim to have also tracked their phones to the same place.

    Apparently the law is changing soon to allow the police to act on such tracking reports. They should be able to make a lot more arrests for such crime in future, and I expect it to be popular.
    How did we reach a stage where the law does NOT allow police to act on such info?!
    Under one of the previous governments you voted for ?
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    You’re right and certainly round by me people are tired of the low level anti social behaviour and petty criminality that blights our town. You’re right, Reform get it. The others are just empty words. Of course Reform may very well be the same. We have plenty of people here who have the ability to see the future as they have determined already they will fail. We will see.

    However when the other parties have just delivered more of the same and just talk down to your community is it any surprise people look to someone who doesn’t.
    I think you are correct that Reform say some things that parts of the public want to hear, but they have said both sides of most things at some point, and Farage is a flim-flam man with neither principles nor policy.

    If voters follow through with supporting Reform they will have an MOT-failed Vauxhall Viva from people who promised to supply them them a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud.
    Makes a change from the clapped out Rover Metro or Ford Fiesta from the other main parties.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    edited May 29

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
    Why are you holding a press conference about Nigel Farage 4 years out of an election?
    Why? To take the focus to Reforms massive weaknesses is why. 😊

    Taking these twisted hostile questions from press pack and answering them well and confidently as this, is the very nub of politics. If you can’t do this you shouldn’t go into politics.

    Nigel Farage can’t do what Starmer just done. Can you imagine Farage exposing himself to this scrutiny on his policy and economic black hole running into £100B’s, and not getting shirty or having a car crash?
    I saw an interesting little video a few days ago about how Mr Starmer needs an "Oval Office", that is a location where a couple of times a week he invites journos onto HIS ground to talk about things for which he wants coverage on the news agenda for the day - say at 7:30 or 8:00am.

    Phil Moorehouse (lefty northern Youtuber) termed it "a way of controlling the news cycle".

    That as a supplement to major press events at longer intervals is an interesting idea.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1rmml1tlKg

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,091
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Yup, this is going wild on social media already. It's smashed through the Instagram doesn't do politics barrier already. Jenrick is making himself the only viable candidate for when Jeni resigns.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    If I was Labour and wondered how to regain some popularity, make it absolute top priority that all these shitty crimes are tracked down and punished.
    There's a thread on Reddit where someone has had their phone stolen and tracked it to the location that the police then refuse to investigate. In the thread two other people claim to have also tracked their phones to the same place.

    Apparently the law is changing soon to allow the police to act on such tracking reports. They should be able to make a lot more arrests for such crime in future, and I expect it to be popular.
    How did we reach a stage where the law does NOT allow police to act on such info?!
    Under one of the previous governments you voted for ?
    I’m sure I had my reasons at the time

    *clutches head, tries to remember*
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
    Numerous times on local Facebook groups when there’s a shoplifting incident people will complain security don’t do anything. But, as you say, why would they risk being stabbed for a bottle of 19 Crimes wine.

    More often than not security is there more as a deterrent, that’s all.

    The shoplifters are more brazen too. This came up on my Twitter feed.

    I’m sure nothing will happen.

    https://x.com/crimeldn/status/1927317848583532905?s=61

    We have security at our local Tesco. Didn’t stop three kids going in the shop on bikes and riding around the aisles. Stuff like that doesn’t even get reported to Plod. I wouldn’t have believed it but my neighbour was in the store at the time.
    This is one issue with increasing ticket inspections. The staff won't go near the young man in a hoodie for fear of getting stabbed, but will hammer the female Asian student who has just arrived for uni and has no idea what she is doing.

    It was a really big issue in Australia when I was there because the inspectors have a daily quota they have to meet.
    You’re absolutely right and I’ve seen it first hand a couple of times.

    Just as in the US, ICE has just announced a quota of 3000 arrests per day.
    Vanishingly few of those individuals will be the "worst of the worst". Instead, they will be like this unfortunate lady.

    https://www.stlpr.org/law-order/2025-05-24/missouri-kennett-woman-ice-deportation-visa
    ..Mayorga, whose legal name is Ming Li Hui, has been detained in jail under U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement custody since late April. She’d traveled from Kennett, Missouri, her home for nearly two decades, to St. Louis for what she thought was a routine meeting to renew her employment authorization document.

    The document, issued by the federal government, allows her to work legally in the U.S. and is set to expire in January 2026..
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,498
    Encouraging outre manche news for Kemi. Les Republicains gain Saone et Loire 5th circonscription from RN in a by-election.

    https://bsky.app/profile/europeelects.bsky.social/post/3lqcki2jbol2b

    The 5th is a mishmash of industrial suburbs of Chalon, a bit of rural Bresse and a bit of the viticultural Chalonnaise.

    A bit like if you imagine a constituency combining a bit of Kentish Weald, a tract of Suffolk and the suburbs of Worcester.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,295
    Sean_F said:

    I can hardly criticise Starmer and Kemi for reading my posts on PB about how to easily shred up Farage and Reform into little pieces.

    From zero immigration to better spending giveaways than all other parties - all paid for by cutting spending that’s not needed - Reform are on a painful ride back to obscurity. 😁

    A mid term opinion poll isn’t “who do you trust to manage the economy.” Mid term local elections in the Shires isn’t “who do you trust to manage the economy.”

    Reforms best hope of avoiding shredding in next General Election is a Truss style collapse under Labour in the next few years, to level the playing field.
    If Reform overtake the Conservatives, in terms of local government, Scottish Parliament, London Assembly, and Senedd, representation, then it's going to be very hard for the Tories to persuade people they are not a wasted vote, come 2029.
    After the end of those 14 years in power, Boris immigration wave to sugar his hard Brexit pain, Truss locking budget responsibility in a cupboard, the Conservative Party can draw on 100 years of economic responsibility that Reform cannot. Despite all that, the Conservative Party still retains more economic credibility than Reform. The Conservative Party will still produce a more credible economic plan and manifesto at the next election than Reforms New Holden Age funded from closing the migrant hotels. The Conservatives will take this credibility to Reform at the next election and shred Reform. Simples.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    glw said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    If I was Labour and wondered how to regain some popularity, make it absolute top priority that all these shitty crimes are tracked down and punished.
    There's a thread on Reddit where someone has had their phone stolen and tracked it to the location that the police then refuse to investigate. In the thread two other people claim to have also tracked their phones to the same place.

    Apparently the law is changing soon to allow the police to act on such tracking reports. They should be able to make a lot more arrests for such crime in future, and I expect it to be popular.
    How did we reach a stage where the law does NOT allow police to act on such info?!
    Under one of the previous governments you voted for ?
    I’m sure I had my reasons at the time

    *clutches head, tries to remember*
    Sorry to go ad hom - but I'm simply pointing out that I don't have much confidence in your capacity for reliably identifying solutions, as opposed to problems.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 852
    edited May 29
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    The fare inspecting squads - usual 2 inspectors with a supervisor - on TfL trains, have electronic devices to check tap in.

    The new style of trains - open plan from front to back - make their job easier.
    Fair enough. But unlike @Sean_F i have never once encountered them - ever. And I use Camden Tube a fair amount
    As someone who uses TfL trains/Underground roughly 2 days per week, I see them regularly enough both on trains and on barriers, certainly enough to deter unless you're riding for a laugh and not going somewhere specific. I don't see significantly more evasion now than in the past (there used to be a lot when I regularly commuted 2005-12). But I accept that the experience of others in other parts of London may be different.

    Best option is Paris-style turnstiles but you have to have another option for wheelchairs, buggies and luggage and that's the weakness. That would cost a lot of money that nobody is prepared to prioritise and years to fit across the entire network.

    And no point convicting anyone until we have built more prisons.

    As always no easy answers.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,091

    Also, this doesn't make clear the consequences of failing to stick to fiscal rules, including higher interest rates, debt payments and a potential insolvency crisis. Which would then lead to even higher taxes and spending cuts.

    It's not about bureaucratic neatness.

    Labour can't do that because if they point it out it will get thrown back in their faces. They added £300bn in borrowing already and it's caused interest rates to shoot up as investors weigh up a huge increase in gilt supply.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    Dura_Ace said:

    MattW said:



    If voters follow through with supporting Reform they will have an MOT-failed Vauxhall Viva from people who promised to supply them them a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud.

    That's a magnificently anachronistic car analogy.
    Heh. I thought I would set it in the correct historical period for RefUK. I did not check whether Rolls-Royce Silver Clouds were decent cars.

    (Just checked and the Rolls-Royce / Bentley specialist that was next door when I was at school, and first saw one, is STILL there.)
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
    Numerous times on local Facebook groups when there’s a shoplifting incident people will complain security don’t do anything. But, as you say, why would they risk being stabbed for a bottle of 19 Crimes wine.

    More often than not security is there more as a deterrent, that’s all.

    The shoplifters are more brazen too. This came up on my Twitter feed.

    I’m sure nothing will happen.

    https://x.com/crimeldn/status/1927317848583532905?s=61

    We have security at our local Tesco. Didn’t stop three kids going in the shop on bikes and riding around the aisles. Stuff like that doesn’t even get reported to Plod. I wouldn’t have believed it but my neighbour was in the store at the time.
    This is one issue with increasing ticket inspections. The staff won't go near the young man in a hoodie for fear of getting stabbed, but will hammer the female Asian student who has just arrived for uni and has no idea what she is doing.

    It was a really big issue in Australia when I was there because the inspectors have a daily quota they have to meet.
    You’re absolutely right and I’ve seen it first hand a couple of times.

    Just as in the US, ICE has just announced a quota of 3000 arrests per day.
    Vanishingly few of those individuals will be the "worst of the worst". Instead, they will be like this unfortunate lady.

    https://www.stlpr.org/law-order/2025-05-24/missouri-kennett-woman-ice-deportation-visa
    ..Mayorga, whose legal name is Ming Li Hui, has been detained in jail under U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement custody since late April. She’d traveled from Kennett, Missouri, her home for nearly two decades, to St. Louis for what she thought was a routine meeting to renew her employment authorization document.

    The document, issued by the federal government, allows her to work legally in the U.S. and is set to expire in January 2026..
    It’s the same with private parking companies and private companies taken on by councils to tackle litter. After an initial burst where the problem is brought under control to hit their targets they have to be inventive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/10/record-number-english-welsh-councils-private-firms-litter-fines
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Yup, this is going wild on social media already. It's smashed through the Instagram doesn't do politics barrier already. Jenrick is making himself the only viable candidate for when Jeni resigns.
    If the Tories install Jenrick and he promises to do all these Reform-y things - leave the ECHR, expel the Boriswave, stop the boats whatever, sort out the enshittification of our cities - then I might, just might, be persuaded to vote for them again

    He seems to get it. He might be a devious shit - probably he is - but frankly I don’t care. Starmer is a lying grifting hypocritical freak show, so it would still be an improvement
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,348
    TimS said:

    Encouraging outre manche news for Kemi. Les Republicains gain Saone et Loire 5th circonscription from RN in a by-election.

    https://bsky.app/profile/europeelects.bsky.social/post/3lqcki2jbol2b

    The 5th is a mishmash of industrial suburbs of Chalon, a bit of rural Bresse and a bit of the viticultural Chalonnaise.

    A bit like if you imagine a constituency combining a bit of Kentish Weald, a tract of Suffolk and the suburbs of Worcester.

    East Grinstead/Crawley?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,295
    MattW said:

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
    Why are you holding a press conference about Nigel Farage 4 years out of an election?
    Why? To take the focus to Reforms massive weaknesses is why. 😊

    Taking these twisted hostile questions from press pack and answering them well and confidently as this, is the very nub of politics. If you can’t do this you shouldn’t go into politics.

    Nigel Farage can’t do what Starmer just done. Can you imagine Farage exposing himself to this scrutiny on his policy and economic black hole running into £100B’s, and not getting shirty or having a car crash?
    I saw an interesting little video a few days ago about how Mr Starmer needs an "Oval Office", that is a location where a couple of times a week he invites journos onto HIS ground to talk about things for which he wants coverage on the news agenda for the day - say at 7:30 or 8:00am.

    Phil Moorehouse (lefty northern Youtuber) termed it "a way of controlling the news cycle".

    That as a supplement to major press events at longer intervals is an interesting idea.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1rmml1tlKg

    Exactly. If Big G baffled why Starmer even done this, it’s to get this attack line leading the on the hour news bulletins throughout the day is the answer. Doing it from tiny non league footy stadiums and factory floors better than a press room isn’t it? Labours back room not nearly as bad as detractors make out.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    The fare inspecting squads - usual 2 inspectors with a supervisor - on TfL trains, have electronic devices to check tap in.

    The new style of trains - open plan from front to back - make their job easier.
    Fair enough. But unlike @Sean_F i have never once encountered them - ever. And I use Camden Tube a fair amount
    As someone who uses TfL trains/Underground roughly 2 days per week, I see them regularly enough both on trains and on barriers, certainly enough to deter unless you're riding for a laugh and not going somewhere specific. I don't see significantly more evasion now than in the past (there used to be a lot when I regularly commuted 2005-12). But I accept that the experience of others in other parts of London may be different.

    Best option is Paris-style turnstiles but you have to have another option for wheelchairs, buggies and luggage and that's the weakness. That would cost a lot of money that nobody is prepared to prioritise and years to fit across the entire network.

    And no point convicting anyone until we have built more prisons.

    As always no easy answers.
    Yes there is. Catch them, prosecute them, convict them, taser them
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
    Numerous times on local Facebook groups when there’s a shoplifting incident people will complain security don’t do anything. But, as you say, why would they risk being stabbed for a bottle of 19 Crimes wine.

    More often than not security is there more as a deterrent, that’s all.

    The shoplifters are more brazen too. This came up on my Twitter feed.

    I’m sure nothing will happen.

    https://x.com/crimeldn/status/1927317848583532905?s=61

    We have security at our local Tesco. Didn’t stop three kids going in the shop on bikes and riding around the aisles. Stuff like that doesn’t even get reported to Plod. I wouldn’t have believed it but my neighbour was in the store at the time.
    This is one issue with increasing ticket inspections. The staff won't go near the young man in a hoodie for fear of getting stabbed, but will hammer the female Asian student who has just arrived for uni and has no idea what she is doing.

    It was a really big issue in Australia when I was there because the inspectors have a daily quota they have to meet.
    You’re absolutely right and I’ve seen it first hand a couple of times.

    Just as in the US, ICE has just announced a quota of 3000 arrests per day.
    Vanishingly few of those individuals will be the "worst of the worst". Instead, they will be like this unfortunate lady.

    https://www.stlpr.org/law-order/2025-05-24/missouri-kennett-woman-ice-deportation-visa
    ..Mayorga, whose legal name is Ming Li Hui, has been detained in jail under U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement custody since late April. She’d traveled from Kennett, Missouri, her home for nearly two decades, to St. Louis for what she thought was a routine meeting to renew her employment authorization document.

    The document, issued by the federal government, allows her to work legally in the U.S. and is set to expire in January 2026..
    It’s the same with private parking companies and private companies taken on by councils to tackle litter. After an initial burst where the problem is brought under control to hit their targets they have to be inventive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/10/record-number-english-welsh-councils-private-firms-litter-fines
    One of the feedback mechanisms we will get wrt Ref UK, and Tories like Robert Jenrick and imo Chris Philp parading around in their rhetorical Farage- or Trump-suits, I expect will be the disintegration of the USA as a developed country.

    They won't admit it, and will just pivot quietly away.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,307
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Yup, this is going wild on social media already. It's smashed through the Instagram doesn't do politics barrier already. Jenrick is making himself the only viable candidate for when Jeni resigns.
    Yes, I think there's no choice but Jenrick now.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,091
    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    The fare inspecting squads - usual 2 inspectors with a supervisor - on TfL trains, have electronic devices to check tap in.

    The new style of trains - open plan from front to back - make their job easier.
    Fair enough. But unlike @Sean_F i have never once encountered them - ever. And I use Camden Tube a fair amount
    As someone who uses TfL trains/Underground roughly 2 days per week, I see them regularly enough both on trains and on barriers, certainly enough to deter unless you're riding for a laugh and not going somewhere specific. I don't see significantly more evasion now than in the past (there used to be a lot when I regularly commuted 2005-12). But I accept that the experience of others in other parts of London may be different.

    Best option is Paris-style turnstiles but you have to have another option for wheelchairs, buggies and luggage and that's the weakness. That would cost a lot of money that nobody is prepared to prioritise and years to fit across the entire network.

    And no point convicting anyone until we have built more prisons.

    As always no easy answers.
    £1000 fines for fare evasion enforced by the law would probably do it. Bring back consequences for low level criminality and the low level criminality will start to drop. Right now people are able to walk into shops, steal whatever they like and walk out. They can jump over barriers, push them open or tailgate people at the disabled barrier. All facing precisely zero consequences. For foreigners the consequence should be immediate deportation, as in within 48 hours their visa or status is revoked and they are sent home or to a detention centre to await deportation if they are asylum seekers. For UK citizens a £1000 fine which if not paid immediately results in a 3 month custodial sentence would bring order back to our streets.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,307
    MaxPB said:

    Also, this doesn't make clear the consequences of failing to stick to fiscal rules, including higher interest rates, debt payments and a potential insolvency crisis. Which would then lead to even higher taxes and spending cuts.

    It's not about bureaucratic neatness.

    Labour can't do that because if they point it out it will get thrown back in their faces. They added £300bn in borrowing already and it's caused interest rates to shoot up as investors weigh up a huge increase in gilt supply.
    I see the doctors are after another 28% payrise this year too and the BMA are balloting for strike action!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,197
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    If I was Labour and wondered how to regain some popularity, make it absolute top priority that all these shitty crimes are tracked down and punished.
    There's a thread on Reddit where someone has had their phone stolen and tracked it to the location that the police then refuse to investigate. In the thread two other people claim to have also tracked their phones to the same place.

    Apparently the law is changing soon to allow the police to act on such tracking reports. They should be able to make a lot more arrests for such crime in future, and I expect it to be popular.
    How did we reach a stage where the law does NOT allow police to act on such info?!
    It's almost as if the rights of criminals not to be arrested are more important that the rights of the victims of these types of petty crime to have something done about it.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 852
    nova said:

    PJH said:

    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
    I wonder if the intractable problem is that people see, with some justification, that of the £45k per household the state spends annually, a disproportionate amount is spent on relatively few people, in many cases without making them or anyone else much more cheerful.

    The Victorains may have been wrong is distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving poor, but most of the public make that distinction all the time in their minds.
    For most households that looks like an absolute deal, because they won’t be paying anything like 45k in tax, including the VAT on their spending. Yet for their more modest subscription fee they’re getting unlimited use of every road in the country, 5-18 schooling for their children, access to all healthcare with no excess or exclusions except dentistry, actual monthly cashback straight into their bank account once they retire, a comprehensive security service, a complete set of consumer protection so they know they can trust the stuff they buy in the shops, and even their own military to keep away attackers.

    Those who are paying more than 45k have benefited from all the good things living in a developed country with economic opportunities brings, so can hardly whinge. That probably includes most of us.
    The revenue, nor the expenditure, is not for 'households' though. I think that is the assumption in the calculation, which I make as 1330bn total Govt expenditure across approximately 30 million households = ~45k per household, compared with the tax paid directly by a household.

    The roads, for example, are used by businesses and other organisations. And individuals using the road are doing so for others' benefit as well as their own eg driving to work.

    I think the larger problem is trying philosophically to make it a reductionist sum for each household; that's not how society can work.
    Interestingly, the median household income (after tax) is only £36k, so most people are already getting far more than they pay in. That figure includes benefit income, and so the imbalance is even worse than that.
    But you need the figure before tax.
    Even then, all these "net contributor" arguments are absolute nonsense.

    I could be paying a million a year in tax on stocks and shares by hardly lifting a finger. Take away all the households under the £45k figure, and most companies just wouldn't exist, or be able to generate the money to grow, and much of that tax I'm paying disappears.

    Very few people are able to earn huge amounts of money without those people we're told are getting a great "deal". If anything, I'd argue the opposite is the case - the people who are lucky enough to get a chunk of change from every transaction, and every hour worked by people earning less than them, are the ones who are getting a good deal.

    PJH said:

    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
    I wonder if the intractable problem is that people see, with some justification, that of the £45k per household the state spends annually, a disproportionate amount is spent on relatively few people, in many cases without making them or anyone else much more cheerful.

    The Victorains may have been wrong is distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving poor, but most of the public make that distinction all the time in their minds.
    For most households that looks like an absolute deal, because they won’t be paying anything like 45k in tax, including the VAT on their spending. Yet for their more modest subscription fee they’re getting unlimited use of every road in the country, 5-18 schooling for their children, access to all healthcare with no excess or exclusions except dentistry, actual monthly cashback straight into their bank account once they retire, a comprehensive security service, a complete set of consumer protection so they know they can trust the stuff they buy in the shops, and even their own military to keep away attackers.

    Those who are paying more than 45k have benefited from all the good things living in a developed country with economic opportunities brings, so can hardly whinge. That probably includes most of us.
    The revenue, nor the expenditure, is not for 'households' though. I think that is the assumption in the calculation, which I make as 1330bn total Govt expenditure across approximately 30 million households = ~45k per household, compared with the tax paid directly by a household.

    The roads, for example, are used by businesses and other organisations. And individuals using the road are doing so for others' benefit as well as their own eg driving to work.

    I think the larger problem is trying philosophically to make it a reductionist sum for each household; that's not how society can work.
    Interestingly, the median household income (after tax) is only £36k, so most people are already getting far more than they pay in. That figure includes benefit income, and so the imbalance is even worse than that.
    But you need the figure before tax.
    I agree but couldn't find it in a hurry. It will be less than £45k for sure. Don't forget that the net figure does include council tax and VAT.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,091

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Yup, this is going wild on social media already. It's smashed through the Instagram doesn't do politics barrier already. Jenrick is making himself the only viable candidate for when Jeni resigns.
    Yes, I think there's no choice but Jenrick now.
    I'd rather Jenrick than Nige.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,498

    TimS said:

    Encouraging outre manche news for Kemi. Les Republicains gain Saone et Loire 5th circonscription from RN in a by-election.

    https://bsky.app/profile/europeelects.bsky.social/post/3lqcki2jbol2b

    The 5th is a mishmash of industrial suburbs of Chalon, a bit of rural Bresse and a bit of the viticultural Chalonnaise.

    A bit like if you imagine a constituency combining a bit of Kentish Weald, a tract of Suffolk and the suburbs of Worcester.

    East Grinstead/Crawley?
    Yes that works, only without the airport.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    Anyone know if this is true ?
    Seems plausible.

    https://x.com/CalumDouglas1/status/1928010564921421878
    ..Ethlyene Dibromide, without which it was almost impossible to effectively run high powered military aero engines in WW2, was only made in ONE plant in all of Germany, which was full of complex, bespoke fragile earthenware vials and chambers.

    Much of the Nazi military aviation fuel infrastructure had been built by, funded by, supported by and in many cases underwritten by, British and American chemical firms and insurance companies.

    Almost incredibly, none of the German lead or dibromide plants were ever bombed, even once, through the entire course of WW2. If these plants had been put out of action, it would have essentially halted all Luftwaffe air operations once the small reserve stock had been expended.

    This sounds totally mad, but is all absolutely true...
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,295

    Why on earth has Starmer exposed himself to this

    Embarrassing and a car crash

    He is PM for goodness sake

    Journalist

    'Farage is living rent free in your brain'

    Totally disagree with you on this occasion. This is strong and note perfect from Starmer. Starmer in full election mode. Battling Farage on economic and budget responsibility will bring the strongest out of Starmer.
    Why are you holding a press conference about Nigel Farage 4 years out of an election?
    Taking these twisted hostile questions from press pack and answering them well and confidently as this, is the very nub of politics. If you can’t do this you shouldn’t go into politics.

    Nigel Farage can’t do what Starmer just done. Can you imagine Farage exposing himself to this scrutiny on his policy and not getting shirty or having a car crash?
    Actually yes

    He did it yesterday

    And I do not support Farage at all

    And Starmer's answers were nonsense
    As the person writing this attack on Reform for Kemi and Starmer via PB, my guidance is not answer any of the press questions, just use the answer space to reiterate and repeat the attack lines in a different way. Hash tag perfect politics.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Yup, this is going wild on social media already. It's smashed through the Instagram doesn't do politics barrier already. Jenrick is making himself the only viable candidate for when Jeni resigns.
    If the Tories install Jenrick and he promises to do all these Reform-y things - leave the ECHR, expel the Boriswave, stop the boats whatever, sort out the enshittification of our cities - then I might, just might, be persuaded to vote for them again

    He seems to get it. He might be a devious shit - probably he is - but frankly I don’t care. Starmer is a lying grifting hypocritical freak show, so it would still be an improvement
    I'd say that's a naive thing to do.

    Go straight back a man who was on the Government backbenches when the enshittification of our cities was created by slashing the budgets of local authorities of all stripes by around 30%, and making policing it impossible by slashing the budgets of police by 20%?

    On what basis?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,197
    edited May 29
    Very surprised that apparently people in the South East and East have a stronger regional identity than those in the Midlands.

    "@YouGov

    How strong is regional identity in Britain? North Easterners are as strongly attached to their region as Welsh people are to Wales

    Scotland: 61% have very strong attachment
    Wales: 49%
    North East: 48%
    London: 38%
    North West: 35%
    Yorkshire: 34%
    South West: 32%
    South East: 22%
    East: 16%
    West Midlands: 13%
    East Midlands: 11%"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1928022898608066927
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,451
    Haha.

    https://x.com/elshadkarbasi/status/1928020755037507898

    Statement from Sadiq Khan:

    I am aware of the distressing footage from Stratford showing a man targeting members of our fare evading community™

    I want to reassure all our communities™, law-abiding or not, that we will not let hate divide us

    London is open to everyone
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563

    MaxPB said:

    Also, this doesn't make clear the consequences of failing to stick to fiscal rules, including higher interest rates, debt payments and a potential insolvency crisis. Which would then lead to even higher taxes and spending cuts.

    It's not about bureaucratic neatness.

    Labour can't do that because if they point it out it will get thrown back in their faces. They added £300bn in borrowing already and it's caused interest rates to shoot up as investors weigh up a huge increase in gilt supply.
    I see the doctors are after another 28% payrise this year too and the BMA are balloting for strike action!
    Given how strong negotiators this Labour govt have proven to be I’d expect the Doctors will end up with 35% after rehearsing the same old arguments as last time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Yup, this is going wild on social media already. It's smashed through the Instagram doesn't do politics barrier already. Jenrick is making himself the only viable candidate for when Jeni resigns.
    If the Tories install Jenrick and he promises to do all these Reform-y things - leave the ECHR, expel the Boriswave, stop the boats whatever, sort out the enshittification of our cities - then I might, just might, be persuaded to vote for them again

    He seems to get it. He might be a devious shit - probably he is - but frankly I don’t care. Starmer is a lying grifting hypocritical freak show, so it would still be an improvement
    I'd say that's a naive thing to do.

    Go straight back a man who was on the Government backbenches when the enshittification of our cities was created by slashing the budgets of local authorities of all stripes by around 30%, and making policing it impossible by slashing the budgets of police by 20%?

    On what basis?
    On what basis would I ever give a toss what you think?
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563

    Haha.

    https://x.com/elshadkarbasi/status/1928020755037507898

    Statement from Sadiq Khan:

    I am aware of the distressing footage from Stratford showing a man targeting members of our fare evading community™

    I want to reassure all our communities™, law-abiding or not, that we will not let hate divide us

    London is open to everyone

    That’s very good 😂😂😂😂
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,487
    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MattW said:



    If voters follow through with supporting Reform they will have an MOT-failed Vauxhall Viva from people who promised to supply them them a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud.

    That's a magnificently anachronistic car analogy.
    Heh. I thought I would set it in the correct historical period for RefUK. I did not check whether Rolls-Royce Silver Clouds were decent cars.
    They had presence and because it was a body on frame there are some really interesting coachbuilt variants like the estate cars and the "Chinese Eye" (don't be alarmed, this was before racism was bad) coupes.

    But ultimately the are reasons why old RRs are relatively cheap. They are not well-built or reliable and rust like fuck. I would dearly like a Camargue though. At one point they were the most expensive production car in the world but you can get a nice one for 50 grand now if you are patient.
  • Labour ignores Farage

    Why is Labour ignoring Farage

    Labour discusses Farage

    Why is Labour talking about Farage, just ignore him

    I wonder if there is an overlap between people that say this on X and those that have hated Sir Keir since 2020.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,307
    Andy_JS said:

    Very surprised that apparently people in the South East and East have a stronger regional identity than those in the Midlands.

    "@YouGov

    How strong is regional identity in Britain? North Easterners are as strongly attached to their region as Welsh people are to Wales

    Scotland: 61% have very strong attachment
    Wales: 49%
    North East: 48%
    London: 38%
    North West: 35%
    Yorkshire: 34%
    South West: 32%
    South East: 22%
    East: 16%
    West Midlands: 13%
    East Midlands: 11%"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1928022898608066927

    Two are actual countries, Yorkshiremen might say there's is a third, one is London (Londoner), and there's a good score for "Northerners" and "West Country".

    The rest have no meaningful identity, hence the low score. I'd respond to Hampshire - and possibly even home county- but South-East is BS.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,723
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    As it happens I went throughStratford station last weekend to accompany my disabled brother and wife to the playoff final at Wembley, so we made good use of the Jublilee and Central lines. I can only report kindness and assistance from TFL staff and fellow passengers alike. If there was widespread evasion of fares it wasn't obvious, but maybe Orient and Charlton supporters are exceptionally law abiding.

    This is of course merely an anecdote, but no more or less so than Jenrick's little publicity stunt.
    You don’t live in London

    I do - at least part of the time. I see shoplifting almost daily and I am now beginning to see fare dodging
    We visit regularly. As it happens Mrs PtP was recently in the Boots by Hampstead tube (which you no doubt know) and witnessed a shoplifter literally cleaning out some shelves. She tried to stop him and was met by a disdainful grunt, so she reported it to the shop assistant who affected extreme indifference. You had to suspect the assistant knew the shoplifter, and may even have been in cahoots with him. There was certainly no attempt to confront him, much less contact the police (who would probably have shown a similar indifference.)

    It's certainly a probem worth tackling. I would begin by reversing the decline over many years of police funding. Also, the shops themselves could and should be more proactive. If Jenrick can stimulate either reaction that would be good, whatever one may think of him and his grandstanding.

    Police funding however costs money and by implication tax increases. If previous governments were unwilling to shell out, can we expect the current one to do so? As for the shops, what sanctions can be imposed on them if they tend to the pragmatic view of turning a blind eye and passing the cost on to the consumer?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,724
    Nigelb said:
    And afaik never a friend of Epstein.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,814

    Haha.

    https://x.com/elshadkarbasi/status/1928020755037507898

    Statement from Sadiq Khan:

    I am aware of the distressing footage from Stratford showing a man targeting members of our fare evading community™

    I want to reassure all our communities™, law-abiding or not, that we will not let hate divide us

    London is open to everyone

    The correct term is the Legally Challenged Community.
  • Ultimately unless Labour shows delivery they will be out.

    Still too early for them to have delivered anything. But they’ve communicated that horrendously.

    But I’m less confident than I was that they will pull the right levers.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,307
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also, this doesn't make clear the consequences of failing to stick to fiscal rules, including higher interest rates, debt payments and a potential insolvency crisis. Which would then lead to even higher taxes and spending cuts.

    It's not about bureaucratic neatness.

    Labour can't do that because if they point it out it will get thrown back in their faces. They added £300bn in borrowing already and it's caused interest rates to shoot up as investors weigh up a huge increase in gilt supply.
    I see the doctors are after another 28% payrise this year too and the BMA are balloting for strike action!
    Given how strong negotiators this Labour govt have proven to be I’d expect the Doctors will end up with 35% after rehearsing the same old arguments as last time.
    This is where all the extra taxes are going for our "beloved" NHS.

    Higher public sector pay. More public sector bodies and quangos. Middle class welfare.

    Higher taxes. Higher interest rates. Lower productivity. Lower growth.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,307
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Yup, this is going wild on social media already. It's smashed through the Instagram doesn't do politics barrier already. Jenrick is making himself the only viable candidate for when Jeni resigns.
    Yes, I think there's no choice but Jenrick now.
    I'd rather Jenrick than Nige.
    Kemi never talks economics.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,779
    A few PB posters have previously noted that crime would be a weakness for Labour. Northern_Al , CarlottaVance and Mexicanpete as far back as 2022, corresponding with the surge in petty crime post-COVID.

    The biggest tell for me was that Lawrence Newport* guy going viral back in November. I thought at the time that it was a shot across the bows for Labour, and here we are. It all started with XL Bullies.

    *Has a connection with Dominic Cummings, curiously enough. I wonder if he's up to something.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    edited May 29
    Nigelb said:

    Anyone know if this is true ?
    Seems plausible.

    https://x.com/CalumDouglas1/status/1928010564921421878
    ..Ethlyene Dibromide, without which it was almost impossible to effectively run high powered military aero engines in WW2, was only made in ONE plant in all of Germany, which was full of complex, bespoke fragile earthenware vials and chambers.

    Much of the Nazi military aviation fuel infrastructure had been built by, funded by, supported by and in many cases underwritten by, British and American chemical firms and insurance companies.

    Almost incredibly, none of the German lead or dibromide plants were ever bombed, even once, through the entire course of WW2. If these plants had been put out of action, it would have essentially halted all Luftwaffe air operations once the small reserve stock had been expended.

    This sounds totally mad, but is all absolutely true...

    I'd say there are strands to that. Firstly though, he's not entirely there on consistency - he says "only ONE plant", then "none of the ... PLANTS (plural) ... were ever bombed".

    But I don't know the story. @Malmesbury ?

    There were certainly prominent USA firms that integrated themselves into the state sponsored economy in Germany in the 1930s, and their subsidiaries kept going throughout by distancing themselves, eg Coca Cola. I'm not sure how Ford were organised - they produced military vehicles in Germany during the war, and Henry Ford was sympathetic politically in the 1930s.

    And there were other which maintained contact through eg Switzerland.

    And there were instances of senior establishment figures intervening with the UK Government to protect their commercial interests afterwards. I don't know about British pharma companies.

    Mr Felton has videos on some aspects of that. eg Coca Cola:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeCraTDw5WY

    I'm sure there is similar happening in Russia even now.

    (Adds: One thought that occurs: if there was such a level of collusion, why did Germany not get the 100-octane aviation fuels that were such a crucial advantage for the USAF and RAF. Germany was stuck with 87-octane.)
  • Farage accuses Starmer of Project Fear 2.0.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,487
    Nigelb said:

    Anyone know if this is true ?
    Seems plausible.

    Doubt it. There are lots of other anti knock additives that could be and were used.

    In the absence of any alternative they could have also slightly derated the engines by retarding timing or dialling back boost. It would knock (geddit?) a few % off the top of the power curve but how often are engines operated at 100% anyway?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,295
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Yup, this is going wild on social media already. It's smashed through the Instagram doesn't do politics barrier already. Jenrick is making himself the only viable candidate for when Jeni resigns.
    If the Tories install Jenrick and he promises to do all these Reform-y things - leave the ECHR, expel the Boriswave, stop the boats whatever, sort out the enshittification of our cities - then I might, just might, be persuaded to vote for them again

    He seems to get it. He might be a devious shit - probably he is - but frankly I don’t care. Starmer is a lying grifting hypocritical freak show, so it would still be an improvement
    LOL. whoever promises you most cake for free funded by the magic tree gets your vote? All they need is sound the right dog whistle on those dangerous foreigners getting the better deal than us natives, and you are owned. That’s your politics?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,814
    Nigelb said:

    Anyone know if this is true ?
    Seems plausible.

    https://x.com/CalumDouglas1/status/1928010564921421878
    ..Ethlyene Dibromide, without which it was almost impossible to effectively run high powered military aero engines in WW2, was only made in ONE plant in all of Germany, which was full of complex, bespoke fragile earthenware vials and chambers.

    Much of the Nazi military aviation fuel infrastructure had been built by, funded by, supported by and in many cases underwritten by, British and American chemical firms and insurance companies.

    Almost incredibly, none of the German lead or dibromide plants were ever bombed, even once, through the entire course of WW2. If these plants had been put out of action, it would have essentially halted all Luftwaffe air operations once the small reserve stock had been expended.

    This sounds totally mad, but is all absolutely true...

    Read the Secret Horsepower Race - the definitive book on military engine development in the Western world in WWII.

    The gaps in knowledge about what the other side was doing with their fuel were enormous - given the number of aircraft crashing in each others territory, you’d have thought the composition of the Other Guys fuel would be known. But no.

    It took ages to find out that the Germans were using N2O2 as a boost gas.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,779
    edited May 29
    Gas at 1.5GW 👀 we are very close to the all time record for wind.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,814
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Anyone know if this is true ?
    Seems plausible.

    Doubt it. There are lots of other anti knock additives that could be and were used.

    In the absence of any alternative they could have also slightly derated the engines by retarding timing or dialling back boost. It would knock (geddit?) a few % off the top of the power curve but how often are engines operated at 100% anyway?
    The Fw190 was serious hit by having to dial back the power in the engine because of the chemistry of the available fuels. Let alone the issues with valves and coatings.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,197

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    As it happens I went through Stratford station last weekend to accompany my disabled brother and wife to the playoff final at Wembley, so we made good use of the Jublilee and Central lines. I can only report kindness and assistance from TFL staff and fellow passengers alike. If there was widespread evasion of fares it wasn't obvious, but maybe Orient and Charlton supporters are exceptionally law abiding.

    This is of course merely an anecdote, but no more or less of one than Jenrick's little publicity stunt.
    This is a recent Times article about fare dodging at Stratford station.

    "I saw 62 fare dodgers in 90 minutes on the Tube. It’s everywhere
    Transport for London loses £130m a year to bumpers and tailgaters on the Tube. We watched the gates with plainclothed inspectors trying to stem the tide
    Sian Bradley" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/london/article/fare-dodging-london-transport-underground-tube-p39vrzv5g
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    Anyone know if this is true ?
    Seems plausible.

    https://x.com/CalumDouglas1/status/1928010564921421878
    ..Ethlyene Dibromide, without which it was almost impossible to effectively run high powered military aero engines in WW2, was only made in ONE plant in all of Germany, which was full of complex, bespoke fragile earthenware vials and chambers.

    Much of the Nazi military aviation fuel infrastructure had been built by, funded by, supported by and in many cases underwritten by, British and American chemical firms and insurance companies.

    Almost incredibly, none of the German lead or dibromide plants were ever bombed, even once, through the entire course of WW2. If these plants had been put out of action, it would have essentially halted all Luftwaffe air operations once the small reserve stock had been expended.

    This sounds totally mad, but is all absolutely true...

    I'd say there are strands to that. Firstly he's not entirely there on consistency - he says "only ONE plant", then "none of the ... PLANTS (plural) ... were ever bombed".

    But I don't know the story. @Malmesbury ?

    There were certainly prominent USA firms that integrated themselves into the state sponsored economy in Germany in the 1930s, and their subsidiaries kept going throughout by distancing themselves, eg Coca Cola. I'm not sure how Ford were organised - they produced military vehicles in Germany during the war, and Henry Ford was sympathetic politically in the 1930s.

    And there were other which maintained contact through eg Switzerland.

    And there were instances of senior establishment figures intervening with the UK Government to protect their commercial interests afterwards. I don't know about British pharma companies.

    Mr Felton has videos on some aspects of that. eg Coca Cola:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeCraTDw5WY

    I'm sure there is similar happening in Russia even now.
    Tetraethyl lead - separate plants - accounts for that.
    https://x.com/CalumDouglas1/status/1928013174692843927
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,295

    Farage accuses Starmer of Project Fear 2.0.

    The Reform Chairman’s response to Starmer’s attack that’s leading the news, was dog whistle dog whistle dog whistle. 😄
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,197

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Yup, this is going wild on social media already. It's smashed through the Instagram doesn't do politics barrier already. Jenrick is making himself the only viable candidate for when Jeni resigns.
    If the Tories install Jenrick and he promises to do all these Reform-y things - leave the ECHR, expel the Boriswave, stop the boats whatever, sort out the enshittification of our cities - then I might, just might, be persuaded to vote for them again

    He seems to get it. He might be a devious shit - probably he is - but frankly I don’t care. Starmer is a lying grifting hypocritical freak show, so it would still be an improvement
    LOL. whoever promises you most cake for free funded by the magic tree gets your vote? All they need is sound the right dog whistle on those dangerous foreigners getting the better deal than us natives, and you are owned. That’s your politics?
    If Jenrick is a real s**t he'll promise not to axe the triple lock during the election campaign and then axe it just afterwards in order to raise the money needed for his policies. Hopefully voters will be thinking about something else 5 years later.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Yup, this is going wild on social media already. It's smashed through the Instagram doesn't do politics barrier already. Jenrick is making himself the only viable candidate for when Jeni resigns.
    If the Tories install Jenrick and he promises to do all these Reform-y things - leave the ECHR, expel the Boriswave, stop the boats whatever, sort out the enshittification of our cities - then I might, just might, be persuaded to vote for them again

    He seems to get it. He might be a devious shit - probably he is - but frankly I don’t care. Starmer is a lying grifting hypocritical freak show, so it would still be an improvement
    I'd say that's a naive thing to do.

    Go straight back a man who was on the Government backbenches when the enshittification of our cities was created by slashing the budgets of local authorities of all stripes by around 30%, and making policing it impossible by slashing the budgets of police by 20%?

    On what basis?
    On what basis would I ever give a toss what you think?
    Even in character, you invest some time in your performance :smile:.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,197
    Eabhal said:

    Gas at 1.5GW 👀 we are very close to the all time record for wind.

    Almost 75% generated by wind and solar, which I think would be a record.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,070

    Farage accuses Starmer of Project Fear 2.0.

    Not sure that's wise from Nigel. He's done well of late by completely removing himself from the Brexit phenomenon. He doesn't want people to start chewing over that and recalling his role in it. It's not as if Brexit is a universally acclaimed success. No, Nigel should definitely be going for Year Zero.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,814
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    Anyone know if this is true ?
    Seems plausible.

    https://x.com/CalumDouglas1/status/1928010564921421878
    ..Ethlyene Dibromide, without which it was almost impossible to effectively run high powered military aero engines in WW2, was only made in ONE plant in all of Germany, which was full of complex, bespoke fragile earthenware vials and chambers.

    Much of the Nazi military aviation fuel infrastructure had been built by, funded by, supported by and in many cases underwritten by, British and American chemical firms and insurance companies.

    Almost incredibly, none of the German lead or dibromide plants were ever bombed, even once, through the entire course of WW2. If these plants had been put out of action, it would have essentially halted all Luftwaffe air operations once the small reserve stock had been expended.

    This sounds totally mad, but is all absolutely true...

    I'd say there are strands to that. Firstly though, he's not entirely there on consistency - he says "only ONE plant", then "none of the ... PLANTS (plural) ... were ever bombed".

    But I don't know the story. @Malmesbury ?

    There were certainly prominent USA firms that integrated themselves into the state sponsored economy in Germany in the 1930s, and their subsidiaries kept going throughout by distancing themselves, eg Coca Cola. I'm not sure how Ford were organised - they produced military vehicles in Germany during the war, and Henry Ford was sympathetic politically in the 1930s.

    And there were other which maintained contact through eg Switzerland.

    And there were instances of senior establishment figures intervening with the UK Government to protect their commercial interests afterwards. I don't know about British pharma companies.

    Mr Felton has videos on some aspects of that. eg Coca Cola:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeCraTDw5WY

    I'm sure there is similar happening in Russia even now.

    (Adds: One thought that occurs: if there was such a level of collusion, why did Germany not get the 100-octane aviation fuels that were such a crucial advantage for the USAF and RAF. Germany was stuck with 87-octane.)
    Shell gave detailed plans for how to destroy the plants in their former German division.

    After the failure of various such schemes to target specific bits of the economy, Harris and Co. avoided “panacea” targeting. See ball bearings….

    Ford et al built plants in both Germany and Russia - during the Depression, such was *encouraged* by the government(s) to create work.

    The reason the Germans didn’t have the super octane fuels (160 Octane was created at one point) was a combination of chemistry and engine design. The allied engines could take the fuel without burning up. This leads into valve coatings…

    Without copy and pasting the whole of the Secret Horsepower War into the forum… the process for making the fuel was an allied secret - invented by the oil companies. The Germans couldn’t use it anyway, because of the design and metallurgy of their engines.

    The super octane fuels are no longer made. Every now and then, a warbird type would ask Shell to make some. The guys in the plants always said no - the fuel was a witches brew of carcinogens. The pension fund saw a noticeable dip, post war, on people living long enough to collect their pensions.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,523
    Eabhal said:

    Gas at 1.5GW 👀 we are very close to the all time record for wind.

    I assume gas can't actually hit zero for balancing reasons. This is about as low as it gets I presume, does more wind and solar actually help past this point ?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,779
    Pulpstar said:

    Eabhal said:

    Gas at 1.5GW 👀 we are very close to the all time record for wind.

    I assume gas can't actually hit zero for balancing reasons. This is about as low as it gets I presume, does more wind and solar actually help past this point ?
    Depends on how much we can export, and whether we have industries that can take advantage of our negative (!) spot electricity prices.
This discussion has been closed.