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Something for Labour to ponder – politicalbetting.com

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  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,724

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    And heads on the spikes.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    On the subject of Rupert Lowe, in that Merlin poll of the Red Wall seats he got 6% as best PM choice (the same as Rayner). Him starting a new party or joining the Tories might move the dial a small amount. He's not a total irrelevant like many, he has a niche following
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563

    Eabhal said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    Public expenditure is running at about £45,000 per household. (OBR). I wonder what the public think the figure is, and whether it is value for money. It does make you scratch your head a bit.

    https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/brief-guides-and-explainers/public-finances/#:~:text=In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to,many different types of spending.

    "In 2024-25, we expect public spending to amount to £1,278.6 billion, which is equivalent to around £45,000 per household or 44.4 per cent of national income."
    There will be a very big variation as to what public expenditure individual households are receiving.
    Yes. I think that is part of the problem. In social care, NHS, social services, the justice system, the benefits system, SEN a fairly small number of people of variable worthiness can and do take up a huge % of the budget; in many cases with a strongly inverse relationship to how much they contribute.
    Grim and grisly paradox.

    The more we make the state efficient, by withdrawing services from those who are comfortable enough to not need them, the worse the cost: benefit analysis looks for most voters. This is starkest for local councils, most of which provide expensive social care for a small number of people, a shrinking bin collection service and not much else. It's not a good value proposition.

    But, unless we are prepared to kick such people out of the tent and hope that the huskies will pull us to safety, there's not a lot to be done. People are people, no matter how expensive.
    I think health inequality is going to doom the NHS too. Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick.

    And crime. The police have efficiently allocated their resources to violent crime, but that primarily effects people living in areas with high deprivation. Meanwhile my bicycle or phone gets nicked and nothing is done about it.

    The one area this isn't true is transport, with massive cuts to bus services while motoring gets cheaper and trains get heavily subsidised.
    'Working people won't tolerate spending half their tax on a service which is only used by pensioners and the chronically sick'.

    So when you become a pensioner or unfortunately chronic sick how would you address the problem ?
    This is the problem. Same with decrying 'benefit scroungers' - same people decrying would expect support if something happened to them to make them unable to work.
    We can disarm this entire row by going after the problem at source. Despite the endless right wing weaponised ignorance, much of the "benefits" paid to "scroungers" are UC paid in work because wages don't pay the bills.

    Despite occasional left wing whines about BigCo not paying taxes, it isn't practical to expect employers to increase wages by 20% - we need to go after the cost of living and reduce it.

    And the two biggies are Housing and Energy.
    1) Decouple rent from market prices. We can smash the landlord scam by offering social housing at viable rents. Private sector landlords will be put out of business which floods their properties back onto the market which knocks the wind out of prices. Empower LHAs to build more social housing never for market sale thus rents not needing to be market priced.
    2) Decouple energy costs from the market. A quick glance at Gridwatch shows 61% of today's demand is from wind and solar, yet we're priced based on gas imports (gas is 5% today and some of that will be domestic). Price our own energy based on much of it being renewable and thus free to generate*

    Thats a big start on the journey.

    *Yes, free. There are maintenance costs. But that is also true of power generation which burns something you have to pay for such as gas - with far fewer parts to maintain
    You might be surprised to learn i don't disagree with any of that . I particularly don't disagree around social housing
    We simply don’t have the resource to build more, either in personnel or materials. Currently a shortage of bricks.

    https://www.constructioninsure.co.uk/another-brick-in-the-wall/

    Also the market needs private landlords as much as it needs LHA ones. For people who move around, especially younger people, they need some flexibility in where to live. We are getting a rise in businesses building homes to rent for an income. Legal and General do it, for example.

    Private landlords sell up, then what happens to the renters ? Why, they end up homeless trying to find somewhere to live.

    MattW is a private landlord. I doubt he’s part of a scam. He seems most responsible.

    The root problem is not evil landlords, the root problem is we have not built enough properties and we need to rectify that but it won’t happen anytime soon.

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,487
    Jenners is so much better at 2025 retail politics shitarsery than Kemi that it's not even funny.

    I don't think I've paid on the Underground for about 10 years. Vaulting the disabled barrier is my preferred method of ingress and egress. Nobody, apart from Jenners, seems to give a fuck.

    I dimly recall uniformed ticket inspectors on Underground trains in the 80s but can't remember exactly when they stopped being deployed.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,476
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
    I wonder if the intractable problem is that people see, with some justification, that of the £45k per household the state spends annually, a disproportionate amount is spent on relatively few people, in many cases without making them or anyone else much more cheerful.

    The Victorains may have been wrong is distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving poor, but most of the public make that distinction all the time in their minds.
    Most of the money we all pay in tax goes into paying for our own NHS care (mostly towards the end of life), pensions (at the end of your life) and education (which happened at the beginning of your life), doesn't it? Tax is less redistributive between people than we often think, I suggest. It's much more redistributive over time.
  • You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    And then people will smash them.....we can go round and round like this. See how shops have added shuttering, bollards, etc etc etc. And so they just come with angle grinders, JCBs.

    The way you minimise it is you track people down and you punish them. Singapore has none of these problems, because everybody knows the state will find you and they will punish you. No ifs, no buts.
    Bike theft is rife around here. I've just got a cracking deal on a lightweight Giant ebike for running errands, light shopping, coffee trips and visiting folk rather than take the car. I've spent just shy of 300 quid on angle grinder proof security to try to keep the scrotes at bay.
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 342

    On the subject of Rupert Lowe, in that Merlin poll of the Red Wall seats he got 6% as best PM choice (the same as Rayner). Him starting a new party or joining the Tories might move the dial a small amount. He's not a total irrelevant like many, he has a niche following

    Funny you should say that. A former colleague of mine, a woman never known to have expressed a pilitical opinion, is now making frequent "Hear Hear!" posts on LinkedIn (of all places) every time Rupert graces the world with one of his opinions. It's reeally rather odd.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,842
    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    When I was concerned with such matters, some years ago now, prescriptions were reasonably frequently missed to children under school age, then not much until teenage, when girls were issued with a few more than young men. The sex differentiation went on until about 50, women using the service rather more than men and then it started to rise for both until retirement when the number of prescriptions rose for significantly for both sexes.

    And, as I understand it, lifestyle effects are not normally seen until at least retirement age.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It’s a good video, too

    Jenrick seems to be the only non-Reform politician who understands these relatively “minor” but critical quality-of-life issues - graffiti, litter, shoplifting, theft

    It’s time the Tories gave him a chance. The Kemotherapy ain’t working
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,266

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    And then people will smash them.....we can go round and round like this. See how shops have added shuttering, bollards, etc etc etc. And so they just come with angle grinders, JCBs.

    The way you minimise it is you track people down and you punish them. Singapore has none of these problems, because everybody knows the state will find you and they will punish you. No ifs, no buts.
    Bike theft is rife around here. I've just got a cracking deal on a lightweight Giant ebike for running errands, light shopping, coffee trips and visiting folk rather than take the car. I've spent just shy of 300 quid on angle grinder proof security to try to keep the scrotes at bay.
    I will be interesting to know how angle grinder proof it really is.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774

    On the subject of Rupert Lowe, in that Merlin poll of the Red Wall seats he got 6% as best PM choice (the same as Rayner). Him starting a new party or joining the Tories might move the dial a small amount. He's not a total irrelevant like many, he has a niche following

    Funny you should say that. A former colleague of mine, a woman never known to have expressed a pilitical opinion, is now making frequent "Hear Hear!" posts on LinkedIn (of all places) every time Rupert graces the world with one of his opinions. It's reeally rather odd.
    Odd but impactful. Farage is clearly scared of him hence the rather weird ousting and police nonsense
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,773

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    And heads on the spikes.
    Snipers randomly deployed at stations with shoot to kill orders. I want the morning commute to look like Stalingrad until behaviour improves.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,476

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    Figure 4 at https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/articles/generationalincometheeffectsoftaxesandbenefits/2019-08-21 may answer that. It shows a graph for average benefits received minus tax. Figure 5 goes into more detail.

    Basically, the average person costs the nation money until about 21. People of working age are making a net contribution, but it's really in middle age (late forties to early sixties) that we make big net contributions. Pensioners then cost a lot: they get pensions, obv, but also tend to be racking up the big NHS costs.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    And then people will smash them.....we can go round and round like this. See how shops have added shuttering, bollards, etc etc etc. And so they just come with angle grinders, JCBs.

    The way you minimise it is you track people down and you punish them. Singapore has none of these problems, because everybody knows the state will find you and they will punish you. No ifs, no buts.
    Bike theft is rife around here. I've just got a cracking deal on a lightweight Giant ebike for running errands, light shopping, coffee trips and visiting folk rather than take the car. I've spent just shy of 300 quid on angle grinder proof security to try to keep the scrotes at bay.
    Let’s hope little Kade and Devonte don’t damage the bike on the basis that if they can’t have it why should you !!
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,668
    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.htm is a report on some of the findings
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    Leon said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It’s a good video, too

    Jenrick seems to be the only non-Reform politician who understands these relatively “minor” but critical quality-of-life issues - graffiti, litter, shoplifting, theft

    It’s time the Tories gave him a chance. The Kemotherapy ain’t working
    Timing..... he probably wants to ride in on his white Jenrick charger after a very tepid 2026 set of elections
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 342

    On the subject of Rupert Lowe, in that Merlin poll of the Red Wall seats he got 6% as best PM choice (the same as Rayner). Him starting a new party or joining the Tories might move the dial a small amount. He's not a total irrelevant like many, he has a niche following

    Funny you should say that. A former colleague of mine, a woman never known to have expressed a pilitical opinion, is now making frequent "Hear Hear!" posts on LinkedIn (of all places) every time Rupert graces the world with one of his opinions. It's reeally rather odd.
    Odd but impactful. Farage is clearly scared of him hence the rather weird ousting and police nonsense
    Well, I'm not an expert, but I wonder if political posts on LinkedIn ("The least social of all the social media") have any impact at all. But to be fair I think that about ALL posts on LinkedIn.
  • You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    And then people will smash them.....we can go round and round like this. See how shops have added shuttering, bollards, etc etc etc. And so they just come with angle grinders, JCBs.

    The way you minimise it is you track people down and you punish them. Singapore has none of these problems, because everybody knows the state will find you and they will punish you. No ifs, no buts.
    Bike theft is rife around here. I've just got a cracking deal on a lightweight Giant ebike for running errands, light shopping, coffee trips and visiting folk rather than take the car. I've spent just shy of 300 quid on angle grinder proof security to try to keep the scrotes at bay.
    I will be interesting to know how angle grinder proof it really is.
    They're pretty good, if the YouTube videos are anything to go by. Typically takes 4 to 5 discs to cut through both sides and a couple of batteries. The reviewers also usually try it with a corded grinder as well for comparison, and that still takes a couple of discs.
    Obviously it's much easier to cut through the crappy council steel tube bike rack or street furniture...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480

    UK Gov to build two reservoirs by taking over the planning process. Good, more of this.

    If they are needed, yes.

    If we just go for "moar of this" as a principle, whether building or demolishing, then we are getting into the unthinking politics of Elon Musk and his chainsaw.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,070
    Scott_xP said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    My uncle lived in a posh flat in Glasgow, and somebody shimmied up the rone pipe and broke in. After that he installed some razor wire on the pipe. Then the council came round and told him to take it down "in case somebody got hurt"
    Wasn't having big shards of glass imbedded in the top of walls a common occurrence back in the day? (I think Ted Hughes once used it as an imagery in a poem.)
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,668
    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.htm is a report on some of the findings
    Or if you prefer this reporting on it
    https://www.scotsman.com/health/healthy-people-more-of-a-drain-on-nhs-because-they-live-longer-2467729

    Getting a link to the studies themself is proving more difficult though used to have a link to it on my last pc
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,714

    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    When I was concerned with such matters, some years ago now, prescriptions were reasonably frequently missed to children under school age, then not much until teenage, when girls were issued with a few more than young men. The sex differentiation went on until about 50, women using the service rather more than men and then it started to rise for both until retirement when the number of prescriptions rose for significantly for both sexes.

    And, as I understand it, lifestyle effects are not normally seen until at least retirement age.
    Well, I cost the state for a free eye test yesterday. It actually didn't save me any money as I get them with my contact lens subscription anyway, presumably Specsavers will claim it back. Not sure why I need a free eye test (or free prescriptions, not that I need any) just because I am 60. Maybe the age should go up to state pension age.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    edited May 29

    On the subject of Rupert Lowe, in that Merlin poll of the Red Wall seats he got 6% as best PM choice (the same as Rayner). Him starting a new party or joining the Tories might move the dial a small amount. He's not a total irrelevant like many, he has a niche following

    Funny you should say that. A former colleague of mine, a woman never known to have expressed a pilitical opinion, is now making frequent "Hear Hear!" posts on LinkedIn (of all places) every time Rupert graces the world with one of his opinions. It's reeally rather odd.
    Odd but impactful. Farage is clearly scared of him hence the rather weird ousting and police nonsense
    Well, I'm not an expert, but I wonder if political posts on LinkedIn ("The least social of all the social media") have any impact at all. But to be fair I think that about ALL posts on LinkedIn.
    He has the same kind of following on X etc though (i meant he was impactful not the linkedin posts) and his salary donations every month in Yarmouth are noticed at least locally.
    I'm not saying he's a major figure but he's not a total irrelevance like many of the MPs. He's pretty much the go to guy for raw right wing populism but hate Farage group
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,487

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    And then people will smash them.....we can go round and round like this. See how shops have added shuttering, bollards, etc etc etc. And so they just come with angle grinders, JCBs.

    The way you minimise it is you track people down and you punish them. Singapore has none of these problems, because everybody knows the state will find you and they will punish you. No ifs, no buts.
    Bike theft is rife around here. I've just got a cracking deal on a lightweight Giant ebike for running errands, light shopping, coffee trips and visiting folk rather than take the car. I've spent just shy of 300 quid on angle grinder proof security to try to keep the scrotes at bay.
    I will be interesting to know how angle grinder proof it really is.
    On an eeb you can carry a heavy motorcycle lock like a Hiplok. That's close to angle grinder proof. You can get through it eventually but it would take multiple blade changes which no scrote on the street is going to to do.
  • MattW said:

    UK Gov to build two reservoirs by taking over the planning process. Good, more of this.

    If they are needed, yes.

    If we just go for "moar of this" as a principle, whether building or demolishing, then we are getting into the unthinking politics of Elon Musk and his chainsaw.
    In general my view is that we need to build build build.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    edited May 29

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    As for all the other things he whinges on about, well, his lot had 14 years in charge - what did they do about any of it? Nothing - instead, they wasted time, effort and money on the European Union.

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    This is the link to the Red Wall polling by Merlin I've mentioned if anyone wants to check it out under the GB News May 24 data tables - it also shows a 50/50 split on Chagos so the red wall is as split as the nation
    https://merlinstrategy.com/recent-polling/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,584

    Wasn't having big shards of glass imbedded in the top of walls a common occurrence back in the day? (I think Ted Hughes once used it as an imagery in a poem.)

    Yes
  • biggles said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    And heads on the spikes.
    Snipers randomly deployed at stations with shoot to kill orders. I want the morning commute to look like Stalingrad until behaviour improves.
    Put Cressida Dick in charge. Gets results.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,645
    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,584
    Dura_Ace said:

    On an eeb you can carry a heavy motorcycle lock like a Hiplok. That's close to angle grinder proof. You can get through it eventually but it would take multiple blade changes which no scrote on the street is going to to do.

    A locksmith once recommended using both chain and wire rope to secure a bike, on the basis that bolt cutters wouldn't cut the rope, and wire snips wouldn't cut the chain

    An angle grinder would of course cut both
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,842

    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    When I was concerned with such matters, some years ago now, prescriptions were reasonably frequently missed to children under school age, then not much until teenage, when girls were issued with a few more than young men. The sex differentiation went on until about 50, women using the service rather more than men and then it started to rise for both until retirement when the number of prescriptions rose for significantly for both sexes.

    And, as I understand it, lifestyle effects are not normally seen until at least retirement age.
    Well, I cost the state for a free eye test yesterday. It actually didn't save me any money as I get them with my contact lens subscription anyway, presumably Specsavers will claim it back. Not sure why I need a free eye test (or free prescriptions, not that I need any) just because I am 60. Maybe the age should go up to state pension age.
    One issue with prescription charges is that they bear no relation to the cost of the medicines and indeed are frequently significantly higher than the actual cost off the medicines involved.
    I'm rather glad they've been held this year because it at least suggests a dim realisation in the DoH or (more likely) the Treasury that they are out of line with the costs involved.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    And then people will smash them.....we can go round and round like this. See how shops have added shuttering, bollards, etc etc etc. And so they just come with angle grinders, JCBs.

    The way you minimise it is you track people down and you punish them. Singapore has none of these problems, because everybody knows the state will find you and they will punish you. No ifs, no buts.
    Bike theft is rife around here. I've just got a cracking deal on a lightweight Giant ebike for running errands, light shopping, coffee trips and visiting folk rather than take the car. I've spent just shy of 300 quid on angle grinder proof security to try to keep the scrotes at bay.
    I will be interesting to know how angle grinder proof it really is.
    On an eeb you can carry a heavy motorcycle lock like a Hiplok. That's close to angle grinder proof. You can get through it eventually but it would take multiple blade changes which no scrote on the street is going to to do.
    Yup. All about making it too much hassle for the bastards. Make them move on to an easier mark.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,476
    Phil said:

    Stereodog said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    I'm not a fan of that kind of framing because it picks at a thread of moral judgement which causes the whole health and social care service to unravel. Many sports radically increase your chances of having an accident, should you disclaim the right to treatment from any injuries derived from that sport because you knew the risks?
    Agree with @Sterodog here: in my youth I did a fair amount of rock climbing. Should I have been refused care if I fell off a cliff? How about rugby players? How about the people that do a lot of driving for their job & are at far greater risk of injury as a result (IIRC sales types who were on the road a lot used to have much the same rate of injury as the most dangerous jobs in the country). Should we be adding an NHS surcharge to their income taxes to compensate the country for the extra costs?

    This line of argument rapidly gets extremely thorny & demands that the state poke into every aspect of our lives to judge whether or not our choices are “worthy” enough to get healthcare. Is that really where we want to be going as a country?

    (Incidentally, my understanding of the research is that heavy smokers tend to die earlier & cheaper: The most expensive are the healthy people who get dementia & require 24/7 care for years on end because they’re too physically healthy to drop dead earlier on.)
    Some health outcomes are related to lifestyle choices -- smoking being by far the biggest, but physical activity and diet also important -- but a huge amount of variation in health outcomes is just blind luck. Never forget that.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,144

    Scott_xP said:

    You know, that’s the first time I’ve seen a Jenrick act I fully agreed with.

    This is the sort of thing that gets people to conclude the country is broken.

    The chap “carrying the knife” was holding a Costa! Hardly a lower class scumbag, he just can’t be bothered because there are no repercussions.

    It’s like littering, nothing never happens.

    It is Horse and that's exactly the reaction he is after. But what's he going to do about it?? That's the key.
    Can't they just strengthen those barriers so you can't push through them?
    That is trying to solve the wrong problem. People will just jump them. Same as sticking all your products in locked cabinets to stop shoplifting, the shoplifters will just smash them.
    Put spikes on the top.
    My uncle lived in a posh flat in Glasgow, and somebody shimmied up the rone pipe and broke in. After that he installed some razor wire on the pipe. Then the council came round and told him to take it down "in case somebody got hurt"
    Wasn't having big shards of glass imbedded in the top of walls a common occurrence back in the day? (I think Ted Hughes once used it as an imagery in a poem.)
    Illegal now, though you can keep it if you have it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    edited May 29

    MattW said:

    UK Gov to build two reservoirs by taking over the planning process. Good, more of this.

    If they are needed, yes.

    If we just go for "moar of this" as a principle, whether building or demolishing, then we are getting into the unthinking politics of Elon Musk and his chainsaw.
    In general my view is that we need to build build build.
    In general I agree.

    However we can't scupper important considerations - such as we should not "build build build" on Zone 3 Flood Risk areas. *

    For reservoirs, I think we need strategies of water use reduction alongside - metering, institutionalising efficient water in households, reducing leaks. We could reduce water use to Danish levels (we are 140l per person per day, Denmark is 110l pppd, in a comparable country **), then we could keep some of our mountainous valleys undeveloped.

    It's right that there should be demanding tests to make sure we need to lose our landscape to reservoirs.

    I think ironically, the sharp increase in water prices will be very beneficial for water saving. But I've been arguing that water prices should be 50-100% higher for years, since pricing is the only mechanism understood in the UK; we don't know the value of anything unless it is turned in £££.

    * https://www.leicester.gov.uk/planning-and-building/urban-design-and-sustainability/flood-risk-management-in-planning/types-of-flood-risk/

    ** https://smartwatermagazine.com/news/locken/water-ranking-europe-2020#:~:text=Household water consumption,from lower to higher consumption.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,197
    edited May 29

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    Interesting move from Jenrick. This is what I see every time I visit London.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    edited May 29
    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,476
    PJH said:

    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
    I wonder if the intractable problem is that people see, with some justification, that of the £45k per household the state spends annually, a disproportionate amount is spent on relatively few people, in many cases without making them or anyone else much more cheerful.

    The Victorains may have been wrong is distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving poor, but most of the public make that distinction all the time in their minds.
    For most households that looks like an absolute deal, because they won’t be paying anything like 45k in tax, including the VAT on their spending. Yet for their more modest subscription fee they’re getting unlimited use of every road in the country, 5-18 schooling for their children, access to all healthcare with no excess or exclusions except dentistry, actual monthly cashback straight into their bank account once they retire, a comprehensive security service, a complete set of consumer protection so they know they can trust the stuff they buy in the shops, and even their own military to keep away attackers.

    Those who are paying more than 45k have benefited from all the good things living in a developed country with economic opportunities brings, so can hardly whinge. That probably includes most of us.
    The revenue, nor the expenditure, is not for 'households' though. I think that is the assumption in the calculation, which I make as 1330bn total Govt expenditure across approximately 30 million households = ~45k per household, compared with the tax paid directly by a household.

    The roads, for example, are used by businesses and other organisations. And individuals using the road are doing so for others' benefit as well as their own eg driving to work.

    I think the larger problem is trying philosophically to make it a reductionist sum for each household; that's not how society can work.
    Interestingly, the median household income (after tax) is only £36k, so most people are already getting far more than they pay in. That figure includes benefit income, and so the imbalance is even worse than that.
    But you need the figure before tax.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    Andy_JS said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    Interesting development.
    Totally unrelated to the Kemi is finished stuff recently of course
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,779
    edited May 29
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.htm is a report on some of the findings
    Or if you prefer this reporting on it
    https://www.scotsman.com/health/healthy-people-more-of-a-drain-on-nhs-because-they-live-longer-2467729

    Getting a link to the studies themself is proving more difficult though used to have a link to it on my last pc
    That shows that obese people cost more to the NHS during their working lives, but by virtue of dying at a younger age they don't cost as much overall.

    That's fair enough. But the issue is that the NHS will direct a large chunk of its cash towards keeping those obese individuals going as long as possible. E.g. Frontier Economics found the costs have massively escalated over the last 10 years, and that's before you get to the personal costs, labour market impact, sickness benefits and so in.

    Bell et al (2023) reckoned it was costing us about 3% of GDP in 2023. The ticking time bomb is child obesity, because there is a strong correlation with adult obesity.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    Scott_xP said:

    Wasn't having big shards of glass imbedded in the top of walls a common occurrence back in the day? (I think Ted Hughes once used it as an imagery in a poem.)

    Yes
    I have some in the top of my garden wall, from maybe 25 years ago. I have not done the full length with a hammer to take them out because they are not that sharp, and it would take some time.
  • We need BTP sectioned at every station especially at peak times.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    edited May 29
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.htm is a report on some of the findings
    Or if you prefer this reporting on it
    https://www.scotsman.com/health/healthy-people-more-of-a-drain-on-nhs-because-they-live-longer-2467729

    Getting a link to the studies themself is proving more difficult though used to have a link to it on my last pc
    Here's a more recent one based on actual data, rather than a model that's nearly two decades old.
    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11419562/

    The other point you neglect is the increased likelihood of the unhealthy not to be in employment.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    edited May 29
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Politically it works and wins support.
    My concern is neither Jenrick not Reform have any solutions so 'getting it' is about as much use as not getting it.
    If I'm wrong then bonus time when Nigel saves us all but for me complete disillusionment has set in.
    That probably colours my view on everything of course.
  • We need BTP sectioned at every station especially at peak times.

    Who is going to pay for that? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more rozzers doing rozzering, but everyone keeps telling us there's no money left.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    The answer is we catch them, prosecute them, convict them, and painfully taser them
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Politically it works and wins support.
    My concern is neither Jenrick not Reform have any solutions so 'getting it' is about as much use as not getting it.
    If I'm wrong then bonus time when Nigel saves us all but for me complete disillusionment has set in.
    That probably colours my view on everything of course.
    I have provided the answer, below
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,724
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Can’t wait till we get to the stage of Bobby J. Pointing at dog shit (which coincidentally embodies his putsch against the malfunctioning Kembot).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    edited May 29
    MattW said:



    As for all the other things he whinges on about, well, his lot had 14 years in charge - what did they do about any of it? Nothing - instead, they wasted time, effort and money on the European Union.

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    As Trump has shown, though, being a scofflaw with zero credibility is no longer a bar to electoral success.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Politically it works and wins support.
    My concern is neither Jenrick not Reform have any solutions so 'getting it' is about as much use as not getting it.
    If I'm wrong then bonus time when Nigel saves us all but for me complete disillusionment has set in.
    That probably colours my view on everything of course.
    I have provided the answer, below
    You're not running for Parliament mate, I can't pin my hopes on you !

    Kemi is rowing in behind 'Rob' and linking the video on X
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,668
    Nigelb said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.htm is a report on some of the findings
    Or if you prefer this reporting on it
    https://www.scotsman.com/health/healthy-people-more-of-a-drain-on-nhs-because-they-live-longer-2467729

    Getting a link to the studies themself is proving more difficult though used to have a link to it on my last pc
    Here's a more recent one based on actual data, rather than a model that's nearly two decades old.
    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11419562/

    The other point you neglect is the increased likelihood of the unhealthy not to be in employment.
    However that one only shows data for the obese so no healthy people to compare the figures too.

    As to not being in work possibly so but then lots of other wise fit and healthy people aren't either because of mental health.

    We were discussing healthcare costs and the figures are plain over a lifetime a healthy living person costs more by dint of living longer , long enough to get things like dementia which is very costly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Wasn't having big shards of glass imbedded in the top of walls a common occurrence back in the day? (I think Ted Hughes once used it as an imagery in a poem.)

    Yes
    I have some in the top of my garden wall, from maybe 25 years ago. I have not done the full length with a hammer to take them out because they are not that sharp, and it would take some time.
    My grandfather became so fed up with his apples being nicked, he obtained several gallons of pig piss which he sprayed on his (very small) orchard.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Can’t wait till we get to the stage of Bobby J. Pointing at dog shit (which coincidentally embodies his putsch against the malfunctioning Kembot).
    Actually, Mark Pack has a blog called "Lib Dems pointing at things", which is modestly amusing.

    https://www.libdemspointing.co.uk/

    I quite the chap in the second photo who has a bit of the "Douglas Hurd" * about him, very straight back et al.

    * Alan Clark once remarked that Douglas Hurd deported himself as if a corncob had been accidentally inserted in his fundament.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,084

    Phil said:

    Stereodog said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    I'm not a fan of that kind of framing because it picks at a thread of moral judgement which causes the whole health and social care service to unravel. Many sports radically increase your chances of having an accident, should you disclaim the right to treatment from any injuries derived from that sport because you knew the risks?
    Agree with @Sterodog here: in my youth I did a fair amount of rock climbing. Should I have been refused care if I fell off a cliff? How about rugby players? How about the people that do a lot of driving for their job & are at far greater risk of injury as a result (IIRC sales types who were on the road a lot used to have much the same rate of injury as the most dangerous jobs in the country). Should we be adding an NHS surcharge to their income taxes to compensate the country for the extra costs?

    This line of argument rapidly gets extremely thorny & demands that the state poke into every aspect of our lives to judge whether or not our choices are “worthy” enough to get healthcare. Is that really where we want to be going as a country?

    (Incidentally, my understanding of the research is that heavy smokers tend to die earlier & cheaper: The most expensive are the healthy people who get dementia & require 24/7 care for years on end because they’re too physically healthy to drop dead earlier on.)
    Some health outcomes are related to lifestyle choices -- smoking being by far the biggest, but physical activity and diet also important -- but a huge amount of variation in health outcomes is just blind luck. Never forget that.
    I very much doubt that a Conservative govt with their voter demographic (or Reform) will introduce rationing of NHS treatment in later years.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,814
    Pagan2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.htm is a report on some of the findings
    Or if you prefer this reporting on it
    https://www.scotsman.com/health/healthy-people-more-of-a-drain-on-nhs-because-they-live-longer-2467729

    Getting a link to the studies themself is proving more difficult though used to have a link to it on my last pc
    Here's a more recent one based on actual data, rather than a model that's nearly two decades old.
    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11419562/

    The other point you neglect is the increased likelihood of the unhealthy not to be in employment.
    However that one only shows data for the obese so no healthy people to compare the figures too.

    As to not being in work possibly so but then lots of other wise fit and healthy people aren't either because of mental health.

    We were discussing healthcare costs and the figures are plain over a lifetime a healthy living person costs more by dint of living longer , long enough to get things like dementia which is very costly.
    There is a strong link between exercise and avoiding dementia in old age, I believe.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 852
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    You’re right and certainly round by me people are tired of the low level anti social behaviour and petty criminality that blights our town. You’re right, Reform get it. The others are just empty words. Of course Reform may very well be the same. We have plenty of people here who have the ability to see the future as they have determined already they will fail. We will see.

    However when the other parties have just delivered more of the same and just talk down to your community is it any surprise people look to someone who doesn’t.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    The answer is we catch them, prosecute them, convict them, and painfully taser them
    A bit of Edison Medicine works wonders.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,645
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    No, I do understand politics - I've done it, I know how it works.

    It's a good video on a political level because it addresses people's basic concerns whether it be fare evasion or shoplifting.

    It's also worth pointing out he doesn't offer any solutions - it's all moaning and complaining which is fair enough but political debate has to be more than identifying problems - it has to involve solutions.

    We heard nothing coherent from your mate Farage yesterday - Jenrick offers nothing coherent in that video.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,295
    I can hardly criticise Starmer and Kemi for reading my posts on PB about how to easily shred up Farage and Reform into little pieces.

    From zero immigration to better spending giveaways than all other parties - all paid for by cutting spending that’s not needed - Reform are on a painful ride back to obscurity. 😁
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,240
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Politically it works and wins support.
    My concern is neither Jenrick not Reform have any solutions so 'getting it' is about as much use as not getting it.
    If I'm wrong then bonus time when Nigel saves us all but for me complete disillusionment has set in.
    That probably colours my view on everything of course.
    I have provided the answer, below
    Have PM’d you if you have time today for some tips re Georgia as seemed to recall it had been one of you adventures? TVM in advance.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    You’re right and certainly round by me people are tired of the low level anti social behaviour and petty criminality that blights our town. You’re right, Reform get it. The others are just empty words. Of course Reform may very well be the same. We have plenty of people here who have the ability to see the future as they have determined already they will fail. We will see.

    However when the other parties have just delivered more of the same and just talk down to your community is it any surprise people look to someone who doesn’t.
    Yes. And worse all the lefties on X are sneering at Jenrick for doing this

    See here:

    “This is the most spectacularly Alan Partridge thing that has ever happened, and I include Alan Partridge.”

    https://x.com/barristersecret/status/1928009185452515699?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Can’t wait till we get to the stage of Bobby J. Pointing at dog shit (which coincidentally embodies his putsch against the malfunctioning Kembot).
    Actually, Mark Pack has a blog called "Lib Dems pointing at things", which is modestly amusing.

    https://www.libdemspointing.co.uk/

    I quite the chap in the second photo who has a bit of the "Douglas Hurd" * about him, very straight back et al.

    * Alan Clark once remarked that Douglas Hurd deported himself as if a corncob had been accidentally inserted in his fundament.
    Presumably we can trace it back to the famous 'Ming points at a toilet' moment in British Politics
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563
    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,197
    edited May 29
    edit
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    You’re right and certainly round by me people are tired of the low level anti social behaviour and petty criminality that blights our town. You’re right, Reform get it. The others are just empty words. Of course Reform may very well be the same. We have plenty of people here who have the ability to see the future as they have determined already they will fail. We will see.

    However when the other parties have just delivered more of the same and just talk down to your community is it any surprise people look to someone who doesn’t.
    Yes. And worse all the lefties on X are sneering at Jenrick for doing this

    See here:

    “This is the most spectacularly Alan Partridge thing that has ever happened, and I include Alan Partridge.”

    https://x.com/barristersecret/status/1928009185452515699?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
    That's like Rosena Allin Khan moaning about the Boris Love Actually rip off that she'd ripped off the week before.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    You’re right and certainly round by me people are tired of the low level anti social behaviour and petty criminality that blights our town. You’re right, Reform get it. The others are just empty words. Of course Reform may very well be the same. We have plenty of people here who have the ability to see the future as they have determined already they will fail. We will see.

    However when the other parties have just delivered more of the same and just talk down to your community is it any surprise people look to someone who doesn’t.
    Yes. And worse all the lefties on X are sneering at Jenrick for doing this

    See here:

    “This is the most spectacularly Alan Partridge thing that has ever happened, and I include Alan Partridge.”

    https://x.com/barristersecret/status/1928009185452515699?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
    I’m a lumberjack and I’m okay….
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Can’t wait till we get to the stage of Bobby J. Pointing at dog shit (which coincidentally embodies his putsch against the malfunctioning Kembot).
    Actually, Mark Pack has a blog called "Lib Dems pointing at things", which is modestly amusing.

    https://www.libdemspointing.co.uk/

    I quite the chap in the second photo who has a bit of the "Douglas Hurd" * about him, very straight back et al.

    * Alan Clark once remarked that Douglas Hurd deported himself as if a corncob had been accidentally inserted in his fundament.
    Presumably we can trace it back to the famous 'Ming points at a toilet' moment in British Politics
    Ming pointing at the porcelain, that’s not something we want to see.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    No, I do understand politics - I've done it, I know how it works.

    It's a good video on a political level because it addresses people's basic concerns whether it be fare evasion or shoplifting.

    It's also worth pointing out he doesn't offer any solutions - it's all moaning and complaining which is fair enough but political debate has to be more than identifying problems - it has to involve solutions.

    We heard nothing coherent from your mate Farage yesterday - Jenrick offers nothing coherent in that video.
    The very first step is acknowledging that this is happening, and it needs to be sorted, fast. Until now society has either turned away out of some weird politeness, or shrugged with despair

    Farage and now Jenrick get this. We can’t shrug or turn away, any more

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Can’t wait till we get to the stage of Bobby J. Pointing at dog shit (which coincidentally embodies his putsch against the malfunctioning Kembot).
    Actually, Mark Pack has a blog called "Lib Dems pointing at things", which is modestly amusing.

    https://www.libdemspointing.co.uk/

    I quite the chap in the second photo who has a bit of the "Douglas Hurd" * about him, very straight back et al.

    * Alan Clark once remarked that Douglas Hurd deported himself as if a corncob had been accidentally inserted in his fundament.
    Presumably we can trace it back to the famous 'Ming points at a toilet' moment in British Politics
    Ming pointing at the porcelain, that’s not something we want to see.

    I preferred his silly old man in a formula one car moment
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Can’t wait till we get to the stage of Bobby J. Pointing at dog shit (which coincidentally embodies his putsch against the malfunctioning Kembot).
    Actually, Mark Pack has a blog called "Lib Dems pointing at things", which is modestly amusing.

    https://www.libdemspointing.co.uk/

    I quite the chap in the second photo who has a bit of the "Douglas Hurd" * about him, very straight back et al.

    * Alan Clark once remarked that Douglas Hurd deported himself as if a corncob had been accidentally inserted in his fundament.
    Presumably we can trace it back to the famous 'Ming points at a toilet' moment in British Politics
    Ming and the Organic Loo was Sept 2007, says the Guardian:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/sep/19/libdem2007.media

    I'm sure there was a blog predating that that was Councillors pointing at potholes. It may still be on blogger or Wordpress, but we are far enough down that rabbit POThole already.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,723
    edited May 29
    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    As it happens I went through Stratford station last weekend to accompany my disabled brother and wife to the playoff final at Wembley, so we made good use of the Jublilee and Central lines. I can only report kindness and assistance from TFL staff and fellow passengers alike. If there was widespread evasion of fares it wasn't obvious, but maybe Orient and Charlton supporters are exceptionally law abiding.

    This is of course merely an anecdote, but no more or less of one than Jenrick's little publicity stunt.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,796
    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Definitely huge downsides. But going back to the header-

    If we want the police to do more about this, that means higher taxes than otherwise, or less of something else.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    As it happens I went throughStratford station last weekend to accompany my disabled brother and wife to the playoff final at Wembley, so we made good use of the Jublilee and Central lines. I can only report kindness and assistance from TFL staff and fellow passengers alike. If there was widespread evasion of fares it wasn't obvious, but maybe Orient and Charlton supporters are exceptionally law abiding.

    This is of course merely an anecdote, but no more or less so than Jenrick's little publicity stunt.
    You don’t live in London

    I do - at least part of the time. I see shoplifting almost daily and I am now beginning to see fare dodging
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    Pagan2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.htm is a report on some of the findings
    Or if you prefer this reporting on it
    https://www.scotsman.com/health/healthy-people-more-of-a-drain-on-nhs-because-they-live-longer-2467729

    Getting a link to the studies themself is proving more difficult though used to have a link to it on my last pc
    Here's a more recent one based on actual data, rather than a model that's nearly two decades old.
    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11419562/

    The other point you neglect is the increased likelihood of the unhealthy not to be in employment.
    However that one only shows data for the obese so no healthy people to compare the figures too.

    As to not being in work possibly so but then lots of other wise fit and healthy people aren't either because of mental health.

    We were discussing healthcare costs and the figures are plain over a lifetime a healthy living person costs more by dint of living longer , long enough to get things like dementia which is very costly.
    I cited it as one of the very few studies which includes halfway reliable data.
    You'll note the authors' comment: "The relative health cost for individuals by BMI category was not reliably available for males, hence the female only focus here.."

    The reality is that relative lifetime healthcare costs for particular population sets are actually pretty difficult to reliably establish - and of course it's a moving target.

    And that's before you consider confounding factors such as relative economic productivity.

    It's quite easy to look for stuff which supports arguments either way.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    No, I do understand politics - I've done it, I know how it works.

    It's a good video on a political level because it addresses people's basic concerns whether it be fare evasion or shoplifting.

    It's also worth pointing out he doesn't offer any solutions - it's all moaning and complaining which is fair enough but political debate has to be more than identifying problems - it has to involve solutions.

    We heard nothing coherent from your mate Farage yesterday - Jenrick offers nothing coherent in that video.
    The very first step is acknowledging that this is happening, and it needs to be sorted, fast. Until now society has either turned away out of some weird politeness, or shrugged with despair

    Farage and now Jenrick get this. We can’t shrug or turn away, any more

    Everything (with respect to this aspect of societal shittiness) depends on the sorting. If the Jenricks and Reform types that get it don't then deal with it we are monumentally fucked.
    Time will tell I guess
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,827
    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,819
    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    Can’t wait till we get to the stage of Bobby J. Pointing at dog shit (which coincidentally embodies his putsch against the malfunctioning Kembot).
    Actually, Mark Pack has a blog called "Lib Dems pointing at things", which is modestly amusing.

    https://www.libdemspointing.co.uk/

    I quite the chap in the second photo who has a bit of the "Douglas Hurd" * about him, very straight back et al.

    * Alan Clark once remarked that Douglas Hurd deported himself as if a corncob had been accidentally inserted in his fundament.
    Presumably we can trace it back to the famous 'Ming points at a toilet' moment in British Politics
    Ming pointing at the porcelain, that’s not something we want to see.

    That would be the Ming Bowl strategy ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,814
    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    As has frequently been pointed out, low level crime ceased to be dealt with because of a series of liberal measures -

    - protecting workers from assault by ordering them not to intervene.
    - prosecution of vigilante types for assault.
    - not wanting to give people a criminal record for minor crimes.
    - bail is automatic for all but the most serious crimes.

    For example - try suggesting that if you are one bail for an offence, while you were on bail for another offence, and them you are caught for a third offence, then you get remanded.

    You will be howled down.

    This was tried under the coalition. It resulted in the Frequent Fliers of the Legally Challenged Community getting warehoused, rather rapidly.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,645
    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,814
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    The fare inspecting squads - usual 2 inspectors with a supervisor - on TfL trains, have electronic devices to check tap in.

    The new style of trains - open plan from front to back - make their job easier.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,480
    edited May 29
    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    A "physical security" answer would require something more like full height turnstyles - ie to 2m high level, or doors at station entrance of the type at the platform edge of the Elizabeth Line.

    I agree that this PR stunt is an indicator of Jenrick's hypocrisy, and imo also the level of contempt with which he views the electorate.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,814
    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
    One frequent suggestion - it’s a policy folder that gets pulled out of the drawer, every now and again - is draconian sentences for assaulting uniformed public servants.

    The usual list is medics, police and rail staff.

    This hits the problem that *always* prosecuting is see as “unhelpful”. And that big sentences would actually discourage prosecution.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    The fare inspecting squads - usual 2 inspectors with a supervisor - on TfL trains, have electronic devices to check tap in.

    The new style of trains - open plan from front to back - make their job easier.
    Fair enough. But unlike @Sean_F i have never once encountered them - ever. And I use Camden Tube a fair amount
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,144
    On wage compression due to NMW: currently stuck in an hour long queue for blood tests because the phlebotomists are on strike. "We can earn the same at Boots" is their line.

    Not quite, because of the pension, but it is indicative.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,779
    edited May 29
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    As it happens I went throughStratford station last weekend to accompany my disabled brother and wife to the playoff final at Wembley, so we made good use of the Jublilee and Central lines. I can only report kindness and assistance from TFL staff and fellow passengers alike. If there was widespread evasion of fares it wasn't obvious, but maybe Orient and Charlton supporters are exceptionally law abiding.

    This is of course merely an anecdote, but no more or less so than Jenrick's little publicity stunt.
    You don’t live in London

    I do - at least part of the time. I see shoplifting almost daily and I am now beginning to see fare dodging
    I don't want to stir up a barrage of abuse like last time, but at least some of this is confirmation bias. You're now looking for these crimes, and now see it everywhere.

    I'm exactly the same with phone use at the wheel. Never used to notice it but now...

    This does not mean it's not politically toxic. Now that the zeitgeist has materialised, everyone else will go through the same mental change for these petty crimes too. I think it could happen with drug driving after Liverpool as well.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,842

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    As it happens I went through Stratford station last weekend to accompany my disabled brother and wife to the playoff final at Wembley, so we made good use of the Jublilee and Central lines. I can only report kindness and assistance from TFL staff and fellow passengers alike. If there was widespread evasion of fares it wasn't obvious, but maybe Orient and Charlton supporters are exceptionally law abiding.

    This is of course merely an anecdote, but no more or less of one than Jenrick's little publicity stunt.
    I must say I've had considerable kindness and consideration when using both a walking aid and an electric scooter. (Not at the same time of course!) Including the young man who stopped work to hold up the traffic so I could cross one of our town's busier roads.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,774
    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
    Once behaviours become endemic/normalised then policy or policing tweaks will never solve it. It will always then require a totally draconian response to reverse it. So does the draconian proposal come first or the public clamour draw out the draconian proposal?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,814
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    The fare inspecting squads - usual 2 inspectors with a supervisor - on TfL trains, have electronic devices to check tap in.

    The new style of trains - open plan from front to back - make their job easier.
    Fair enough. But unlike @Sean_F i have never once encountered them - ever. And I use Camden Tube a fair amount
    Seen them on the District line a bit.

    On one such, overheard them radioing ahead. Apparently they were watching up the train as people ducked out of the train as they saw them. The inspectors had coordinated with the police - who were waiting at the next station apparently. Herding the grouse the guns….
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,295

    I can hardly criticise Starmer and Kemi for reading my posts on PB about how to easily shred up Farage and Reform into little pieces.

    From zero immigration to better spending giveaways than all other parties - all paid for by cutting spending that’s not needed - Reform are on a painful ride back to obscurity. 😁

    A mid term opinion poll isn’t “who do you trust to manage the economy.” Mid term local elections in the Shires isn’t “who do you trust to manage the economy.”

    Reforms best hope of avoiding shredding in next General Election is a Truss style collapse under Labour in the next few years, to level the playing field.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    edited May 29
    MattW said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    A "physical security" answer would require something more like full height turnstyles - ie to 2m high level, or doors at station entrance of the type at the platform edge of the Elizabeth Line.

    I agree that this PR stunt is an indicator of Jenrick's hypocrisy, and imo also the level of contempt with which he views the electorate.
    Nothing to the level of contempt I have for people like you

    What’s more, Jenrick has again set the political agenda. What are we talking about? The video he posted just now on X

    He is the only UK politician, Farage aside, who knows how to use social media really effectively
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,197
    edited May 29
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    IMHO, fare-dodging was more common when I was a boy (it was seen as a sport), than now. These days, I reckon I get asked to show my ticket, every third journey.

    No one has “tickets” in London. You tap in and out with your phone, card, watch
    I still use paper tickets sometimes because it's better if you're a train-spotter type person who wants to spend all day in the system. If you use any type of electronic ticket you get "timed out" and fined if you spend more than a set amount of time doing any particular journey, whereas you don't with a paper ticket.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,451
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    You’re right and certainly round by me people are tired of the low level anti social behaviour and petty criminality that blights our town. You’re right, Reform get it. The others are just empty words. Of course Reform may very well be the same. We have plenty of people here who have the ability to see the future as they have determined already they will fail. We will see.

    However when the other parties have just delivered more of the same and just talk down to your community is it any surprise people look to someone who doesn’t.
    Yes. And worse all the lefties on X are sneering at Jenrick for doing this

    See here:

    “This is the most spectacularly Alan Partridge thing that has ever happened, and I include Alan Partridge.”

    https://x.com/barristersecret/status/1928009185452515699?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
    https://x.com/shipleywrites/status/1928026081166069831

    There’s something utterly decadent and pathetic about this tweet. Chucking out 2012-era Twitter ‘witty’ put downs about someone who is actually confronting the collapse in social trust and the rule of law.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,298
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    As it happens I went throughStratford station last weekend to accompany my disabled brother and wife to the playoff final at Wembley, so we made good use of the Jublilee and Central lines. I can only report kindness and assistance from TFL staff and fellow passengers alike. If there was widespread evasion of fares it wasn't obvious, but maybe Orient and Charlton supporters are exceptionally law abiding.

    This is of course merely an anecdote, but no more or less so than Jenrick's little publicity stunt.
    You don’t live in London

    I do - at least part of the time. I see shoplifting almost daily and I am now beginning to see fare dodging
    I don't want to stir up a barrage of abuse like last time, but at least some of this is confirmation bias. You're now looking for these crimes, and now see it everywhere.

    I'm exactly the same with phone use at the wheel. Never used to notice it but now...

    This does not mean it's not politically toxic. Now that the zeitgeist has materialised, everyone else will go through the same mental change for these petty crimes too. I think it could happen with drug driving after Liverpool as well.
    You stirred up a barrage of abuse because you flat out lied. You claimed shoplifting is no worse than it
    was 10 years ago, and you did this in a chortling tone

    You were then shown hard data proving it has risen ten fold
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,197
    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    No, I do understand politics - I've done it, I know how it works.

    It's a good video on a political level because it addresses people's basic concerns whether it be fare evasion or shoplifting.

    It's also worth pointing out he doesn't offer any solutions - it's all moaning and complaining which is fair enough but political debate has to be more than identifying problems - it has to involve solutions.

    We heard nothing coherent from your mate Farage yesterday - Jenrick offers nothing coherent in that video.
    Solutions? The solution is to arrest and prosecute the people who do it.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    A

    Pagan2 said:

    Labour know what the problems in our public services are - marketisation. It is futile tipping yet more money in at the top when so much of it is eaten by the market bureaucracy that the front line provision is in a cash-starved crisis.

    What we need is the Vision Thing. How they are going to remake public services so that they are fit for purpose. And the starting place is not where we are now - a blank sheet of paper is needed.

    Labour are probably not the party best equipped to deal with the underlying problems of the NHS. A Cameron/Osborne style Conservative Government is needed to think the unthinkable starting with rationing, particularly at end of life.

    What was the point in spending hundreds of thousands of pounds saving my father's life for an extra six months of total immobility? Multiply that half a million to a million pounds across all the hopeless cases they have saved for no quality of life each year and a not inconsequential sum of money is saved for more appropriate patients.

    Take George Best, provided with a liver transplant only to waste that opportunity on his predeliction for scotch and vodka. Not spending money on people with basket case lifestyle choices has to be considered too

    Repeat prescriptions free to the user resulting in millions of pounds wasted on unused drugs has to stop.

    Brutality is needed, otherwise Farage and his US style insurance scheme is the unfortunate answer.

    It would be interesting to know how much government expenditure is received on average per year of your life.

    And how much your entire life could have been improved if some of that had been received when you were much younger.
    I am a big advocate of those who indulge in lifestyle choices that bed block in later life like excessive use of booze, fags and a dramatically unhealthy younger lifestyle aren't rewarded for their gluttony.

    Instead of penalising these people we allow them frequent flyer status at A and E and pay for a Motability vehicle to get them there.
    Except that a few countries now have done studies on this and the lifetime healthcare costs is lower for those that smoke/drink are obese than the healthy lifestyle folk....and in the savings on paying their pensions for less time and if you are doing it on this basis its those living a healthy life that should be surcharged
    Could you provide a link to these studies? My GP surgery waiting room is not packed out by runners and cyclists.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.htm is a report on some of the findings
    Or if you prefer this reporting on it
    https://www.scotsman.com/health/healthy-people-more-of-a-drain-on-nhs-because-they-live-longer-2467729

    Getting a link to the studies themself is proving more difficult though used to have a link to it on my last pc
    Here's a more recent one based on actual data, rather than a model that's nearly two decades old.
    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11419562/

    The other point you neglect is the increased likelihood of the unhealthy not to be in employment.
    However that one only shows data for the obese so no healthy people to compare the figures too.

    As to not being in work possibly so but then lots of other wise fit and healthy people aren't either because of mental health.

    We were discussing healthcare costs and the figures are plain over a lifetime a healthy living person costs more by dint of living longer , long enough to get things like dementia which is very costly.
    There is a strong link between exercise and avoiding dementia in old age, I believe.
    Resistance exercise is essential for a healthy later life. Grip strength is a key marker for longevity.
    It really isn't set in stone that you have to get frail and infirm as you get older, yet we as a society seem to believe it is inevitable.
  • novanova Posts: 832

    PJH said:

    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    vik said:

    "We often see polls like this showing the public favouring higher taxes but that support evaporates once those taxes are increased."

    It depends on the type of public service. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to pay higher taxes if it meant more policemen on the street, or more frequent rubbish collection.

    But when asked how much, they give answers like “another tenner a year”.
    I wonder if the intractable problem is that people see, with some justification, that of the £45k per household the state spends annually, a disproportionate amount is spent on relatively few people, in many cases without making them or anyone else much more cheerful.

    The Victorains may have been wrong is distinguishing between the deserving and the undeserving poor, but most of the public make that distinction all the time in their minds.
    For most households that looks like an absolute deal, because they won’t be paying anything like 45k in tax, including the VAT on their spending. Yet for their more modest subscription fee they’re getting unlimited use of every road in the country, 5-18 schooling for their children, access to all healthcare with no excess or exclusions except dentistry, actual monthly cashback straight into their bank account once they retire, a comprehensive security service, a complete set of consumer protection so they know they can trust the stuff they buy in the shops, and even their own military to keep away attackers.

    Those who are paying more than 45k have benefited from all the good things living in a developed country with economic opportunities brings, so can hardly whinge. That probably includes most of us.
    The revenue, nor the expenditure, is not for 'households' though. I think that is the assumption in the calculation, which I make as 1330bn total Govt expenditure across approximately 30 million households = ~45k per household, compared with the tax paid directly by a household.

    The roads, for example, are used by businesses and other organisations. And individuals using the road are doing so for others' benefit as well as their own eg driving to work.

    I think the larger problem is trying philosophically to make it a reductionist sum for each household; that's not how society can work.
    Interestingly, the median household income (after tax) is only £36k, so most people are already getting far more than they pay in. That figure includes benefit income, and so the imbalance is even worse than that.
    But you need the figure before tax.
    Even then, all these "net contributor" arguments are absolute nonsense.

    I could be paying a million a year in tax on stocks and shares by hardly lifting a finger. Take away all the households under the £45k figure, and most companies just wouldn't exist, or be able to generate the money to grow, and much of that tax I'm paying disappears.

    Very few people are able to earn huge amounts of money without those people we're told are getting a great "deal". If anything, I'd argue the opposite is the case - the people who are lucky enough to get a chunk of change from every transaction, and every hour worked by people earning less than them, are the ones who are getting a good deal.
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,563
    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    Guido is sharing a video of Jenrick confronting tube fare dodgers.
    Vigilante Jenrick the latest iteration of the many Jenricks!

    It's quite the brass neck for a man who signed off a Planning Application one day before the deadline by unlawfully abusing his authority as Minister - as was determined by an enquiry (maybe a court case, I think?) - at a cost of tens of millions to the people of Tower Hamlets, and where the applicant was a big donor to the Conservative Party.

    A "law and order" wanker has zero credibility when his response to have been found to have done unlawful things himself is denial, defiance and slopey shoulders.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/27/richard-desmond-housing-project-unlawfully-approved-robert-jenrick-isle-dogs-london-avoid-40m-hit
    The video is doubtless heavily edited. How many people did Jenrick go after who just ignored him and kept walking? How many fare evaders did he actually confront?

    He can look "brave" (with a camera in tow) going up to one person evading. Let's see how "brave" he would be facing six young men who have all just pushed through the ticket barrier. That's the other reality of fare evasion - mass evasion with the threat of violence if challenged. What's Jenrick's answer to that?

    Perhaps he should stand as Mayor of London if he thinks he has the answers...
    This is completely ridiculous. Likewise the prior comment from @MattW

    Flatulent nonsense

    Jenrick is doing good street level politics. People REALLY care about all this. This is important quality of life stuff because it is daily life

    I don’t care if he raped trees ten years ago, or got this vid edited by Marty Scorsese, he shows that he gets it. And by doing it he shows how all the other politicians - outside Reform - do NOT get it
    I made a slightly flippant comment earlier but there is also a more serious point about fare evasion on TfL.

    As I understand it the cost of prevention is far greater than the amount of revenue lost. TfL already doesn't have enough money and is looking to save where it can - its response is therefore logical. There are sporadic exercises where teams of a dozen or so block a busy station (perhaps every 2-3 months) and catch whoever they can , and there are travelling inspectors, and I was asked to show my ticket/Oyster only a couple of weeks ago.

    The Police also have limited budgets and bigger fish to fry so rightly focus their attention elsewhere, rather than having two officers on duty all day at every station in London.

    If politicians wanted to fund this, they could. The last lot (including Robert Jenrick) chose not to, and were thrown out.

    There is also an argument that the general shittiness of society after 14 years of austerity and under-investment also leaves some parts of society with no stake and nothing to lose. Reversing that might also be a way to reduce low level crime like fare dodging and shoplifting.

    Labour could start to turn this round via either or both paths if they so chose, but they would have to increase taxation to pay for it and there is no suggestion they are prepared to move away from the conservative orthodoxy they have inherited.

    Either approach will take time - it has taken 14 years to get this bad. It is hypocritical of Tory MPs in particular to point the finger of blame at anyone but themselves.
    But there is an issue here, same with the police ignoring shoplifting.

    The moral dilemma being if others don’t pay and there are no consequences for that action then why should the rest of us obey laws ? Effectively the action becomes decriminalised through custom and practise.
    Okay - you're not wrong.

    Why should the law abiding (and the risk averse) call out fare evaders, shoplifters etc? I'm not saying we shouldn't but if I confront three or four big young men who push through the East Ham ticket barrier, there's a risk one of them will have a knife or all of them will beat me up. There are plenty of instances where, if enough people get involved, the evader/shoplifter can be stopped but how often does that happen? Most people don't get involved because of what they see as the risk of harm to themselves and that includes TfL staff.

    There's the politics of it and the reality of it.

    The only alternative is a far more authoritarian and controlled State than we have now.
    Numerous times on local Facebook groups when there’s a shoplifting incident people will complain security don’t do anything. But, as you say, why would they risk being stabbed for a bottle of 19 Crimes wine.

    More often than not security is there more as a deterrent, that’s all.

    The shoplifters are more brazen too. This came up on my Twitter feed.

    I’m sure nothing will happen.

    https://x.com/crimeldn/status/1927317848583532905?s=61

    We have security at our local Tesco. Didn’t stop three kids going in the shop on bikes and riding around the aisles. Stuff like that doesn’t even get reported to Plod. I wouldn’t have believed it but my neighbour was in the store at the time.
This discussion has been closed.