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Reform, no joy just division. Will Lowe tear us apart? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,466
edited 2:00PM in General
Reform, no joy just division. Will Lowe tear us apart? – politicalbetting.com

The Metropolitan Police have today confirmed that they are dropping their investigation into the false allegations that I made threats against the Reform Party chairman.Full statement. pic.twitter.com/4teRw1j5kn

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,800
    First like Reform
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,105
    I missed the suitable use of the word "subtle".
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,105
    edited 2:04PM

    A reminder to whom it may concern that OGH used his own memes.


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,272
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Another thing the political class gets wrong, because they can't resist commenting on it, is Israel/Palestine.

    The view of the average British voter is that they're as bad as each other, and we should stay out of it. And consequently they're not especially interested.

    So why does the government continue to support Israel with arms exports and RAF surveillance flights? Curious that they aren't following public opinion, particularly a Labour government.
    If public opinion is that they're not interested, then why shouldn't we have arms exports? Arms exports are good for business and good for our economy, so there should be a very good reason to prevent them.

    Seems the Government is following public opinion, just not loudmouth opinion.
    The polling is pretty clear, and consistent with what CR said. 58:18 for opposing exports to Israel, with 40% for strongly opposing.

    And that was April 2024. It will be even more overwhelming now.
    So the percentage opposing arms to Israel is no more than the percentage of Londoners saying immigration is too high?

    And I'd be skeptical about the nature of that polling data. I doubt many people are bring up arms to Israel as an issue unprompted.
    I just think your understanding of "not getting involved" is quite different to everyone else's.

    (They aren't bringing up housing either, despite how important you think that is)
    As a general principle we believe in the concepts of trade and supporting our allies.

    So engaging in trade and supporting our allies is "not getting involved".

    Cutting off trade is getting involved, given our general principles.
    It is strange to sell arms to a country led by someone we're obliged to arrest on suspicion of war crimes if he enters our country. A general principle of not doing that would seem more consistent.
    Ridiculous over-reach by a "court" we should not be a part of any more with such absurd rulings.

    Some good news from the conflict yesterday in that it seems that Israel may have got another leader of Hamas. Its funny how often many here were saying early on that Israel was in the wrong as they weren't going after the leaders are Hamas but don't say anything supportive when they do.

    Of course that leader was again as Hamas routinely does using a hospital as a base, meaning Israel were forced to hit a hospital to get to him.

    The problem with this conflict is that until Hamas is defeated there is nowhere safe for the Palestinians as Hamas turn everything, even hospitals, into legitimate targets by weaponising them as human shields.
    You can make a logical argument for either - or indeed both! - of:
    1. Leaving the ICC
    2. Stopping arms sales to Israel
    but being both a member and selling arms to someone for whom the court has an arrest warrant out for war crimes seems inconsistent. Either the law/court is an ass or we should halt weapons sales until Israel has a new leader. Or both.
    It's more complicated than that.

    The arms in question (at least those of any significance) are parts for the F35, for which the UK is the second largest supplier after the US.
    These go into a worldwide pool from which Israel is supplied (by the US).

    Contractually, there's no way in which we can place restrictions on the use of those parts. We either continue to supply them, or leave the program.

    Which would be somewhat awkward...
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,748
    There's no love lost between these individuals as a new dawn fades.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,715
    The Unknown Pleasures of a new thread.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,272
    edited 2:08PM
    Will a New Order emerge from the coming battle for the Heart and Soul of the party?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,536
    Reform is very much a Farage vehicle and Lowe will be pleased that he has been vindicated in standing up to him.

    Unless Lowe forms a new nationalist party bankrolled by Musk I doubt Farage will be too damaged though
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,714
    I don't see this as being anything other than a minor problem for Reform.

    At the moment, the party is on the up.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,238
    I predict this will cause no problems whatsoever

    https://news.sky.com/story/foreign-states-face-15-newspaper-ownership-limit-amid-telegraph-row-13367680

    "Foreign state investors would be allowed to hold stakes of up to 15% in British national newspapers, ministers are set to announce amid a two-year battle to resolve an impasse over The Daily Telegraph's ownership.

    Sky News has learnt that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport could announce as soon as Thursday that the new limit is to be imposed following a consultation lasting several months.
    "
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,545
    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,992
    CatMan said:

    I predict this will cause no problems whatsoever

    https://news.sky.com/story/foreign-states-face-15-newspaper-ownership-limit-amid-telegraph-row-13367680

    "Foreign state investors would be allowed to hold stakes of up to 15% in British national newspapers, ministers are set to announce amid a two-year battle to resolve an impasse over The Daily Telegraph's ownership.

    Sky News has learnt that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport could announce as soon as Thursday that the new limit is to be imposed following a consultation lasting several months.
    "

    This is a shit idea.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,921
    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    Time to extend the powers of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council to the United Kingdom.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,536
    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    It isn't. Crown in Parliament is supreme in the UK, we have no written constitution and the SC was originally the Law Lords in the House of Lords
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,500
    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    The Supreme Court is also a bunch of lawyers too. No guarantee they wouldn't rule in the same way as the ICC.

    If you left it to parliament, it's almost certain they would ban exports given prevailing public opinion.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,545
    It appears Reform has a bad Atmosphere. Kemi won't respond because She's Lost Control.

    (narrator: many years ago Viewcode once danced drunkenly to "She's Lost Control" in a Middlesbrough car park. "...AN SHEE SCREMED AAHHT KINKING ON UR SIDE AND SED SHEEZ LOST CONTRUL AGIN...". Oh happy days...)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,545
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    It isn't. Crown in Parliament is supreme in the UK, we have no written constitution and the SC was originally the Law Lords in the House of Lords
    I agree. I made the same point in my Blob article
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,739

    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    Time to extend the powers of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council to the United Kingdom.
    Isn't the Supreme Court more or less the JCPC just not under that name?

    Surely, in that case, it would be better to rename it to something less insufferably naff? Like (say) the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,272
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Another thing the political class gets wrong, because they can't resist commenting on it, is Israel/Palestine.

    The view of the average British voter is that they're as bad as each other, and we should stay out of it. And consequently they're not especially interested.

    So why does the government continue to support Israel with arms exports and RAF surveillance flights? Curious that they aren't following public opinion, particularly a Labour government.
    If public opinion is that they're not interested, then why shouldn't we have arms exports? Arms exports are good for business and good for our economy, so there should be a very good reason to prevent them.

    Seems the Government is following public opinion, just not loudmouth opinion.
    The polling is pretty clear, and consistent with what CR said. 58:18 for opposing exports to Israel, with 40% for strongly opposing.

    And that was April 2024. It will be even more overwhelming now.
    So the percentage opposing arms to Israel is no more than the percentage of Londoners saying immigration is too high?

    And I'd be skeptical about the nature of that polling data. I doubt many people are bring up arms to Israel as an issue unprompted.
    I just think your understanding of "not getting involved" is quite different to everyone else's.

    (They aren't bringing up housing either, despite how important you think that is)
    As a general principle we believe in the concepts of trade and supporting our allies.

    So engaging in trade and supporting our allies is "not getting involved".

    Cutting off trade is getting involved, given our general principles.
    It is strange to sell arms to a country led by someone we're obliged to arrest on suspicion of war crimes if he enters our country. A general principle of not doing that would seem more consistent.
    Ridiculous over-reach by a "court" we should not be a part of any more with such absurd rulings.

    Some good news from the conflict yesterday in that it seems that Israel may have got another leader of Hamas. Its funny how often many here were saying early on that Israel was in the wrong as they weren't going after the leaders are Hamas but don't say anything supportive when they do.

    Of course that leader was again as Hamas routinely does using a hospital as a base, meaning Israel were forced to hit a hospital to get to him.

    The problem with this conflict is that until Hamas is defeated there is nowhere safe for the Palestinians as Hamas turn everything, even hospitals, into legitimate targets by weaponising them as human shields.
    You can make a logical argument for either - or indeed both! - of:
    1. Leaving the ICC
    2. Stopping arms sales to Israel
    but being both a member and selling arms to someone for whom the court has an arrest warrant out for war crimes seems inconsistent. Either the law/court is an ass or we should halt weapons sales until Israel has a new leader. Or both.
    It's more complicated than that.

    The arms in question (at least those of any significance) are parts for the F35, for which the UK is the second largest supplier after the US.
    These go into a worldwide pool from which Israel is supplied (by the US).

    Contractually, there's no way in which we can place restrictions on the use of those parts. We either continue to supply them, or leave the program.

    Which would be somewhat awkward...
    Fair enough. I didn't know the details of this - which, being a proper PBer - I took as no bar to commenting on the issue :wink:
    It's another downside of tying ourselves so closely to the US for the procurement of defence systems.

    The F35 is a remarkable aircraft - but our versions are somewhat crippled (they still can't carry our most potent air to air and air to ground missiles, for example), and use of them in any given theatre is de facto subject to US approval.

    I'm very uncomfortable supplying Israel with kit that's very probably being used to target civilians (however much that decision is out of our hands). But we are in no position to do anything about it - until we make other defence arrangements.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,500
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Another thing the political class gets wrong, because they can't resist commenting on it, is Israel/Palestine.

    The view of the average British voter is that they're as bad as each other, and we should stay out of it. And consequently they're not especially interested.

    So why does the government continue to support Israel with arms exports and RAF surveillance flights? Curious that they aren't following public opinion, particularly a Labour government.
    If public opinion is that they're not interested, then why shouldn't we have arms exports? Arms exports are good for business and good for our economy, so there should be a very good reason to prevent them.

    Seems the Government is following public opinion, just not loudmouth opinion.
    The polling is pretty clear, and consistent with what CR said. 58:18 for opposing exports to Israel, with 40% for strongly opposing.

    And that was April 2024. It will be even more overwhelming now.
    So the percentage opposing arms to Israel is no more than the percentage of Londoners saying immigration is too high?

    And I'd be skeptical about the nature of that polling data. I doubt many people are bring up arms to Israel as an issue unprompted.
    I just think your understanding of "not getting involved" is quite different to everyone else's.

    (They aren't bringing up housing either, despite how important you think that is)
    As a general principle we believe in the concepts of trade and supporting our allies.

    So engaging in trade and supporting our allies is "not getting involved".

    Cutting off trade is getting involved, given our general principles.
    It is strange to sell arms to a country led by someone we're obliged to arrest on suspicion of war crimes if he enters our country. A general principle of not doing that would seem more consistent.
    Ridiculous over-reach by a "court" we should not be a part of any more with such absurd rulings.

    Some good news from the conflict yesterday in that it seems that Israel may have got another leader of Hamas. Its funny how often many here were saying early on that Israel was in the wrong as they weren't going after the leaders are Hamas but don't say anything supportive when they do.

    Of course that leader was again as Hamas routinely does using a hospital as a base, meaning Israel were forced to hit a hospital to get to him.

    The problem with this conflict is that until Hamas is defeated there is nowhere safe for the Palestinians as Hamas turn everything, even hospitals, into legitimate targets by weaponising them as human shields.
    You can make a logical argument for either - or indeed both! - of:
    1. Leaving the ICC
    2. Stopping arms sales to Israel
    but being both a member and selling arms to someone for whom the court has an arrest warrant out for war crimes seems inconsistent. Either the law/court is an ass or we should halt weapons sales until Israel has a new leader. Or both.
    It's more complicated than that.

    The arms in question (at least those of any significance) are parts for the F35, for which the UK is the second largest supplier after the US.
    These go into a worldwide pool from which Israel is supplied (by the US).

    Contractually, there's no way in which we can place restrictions on the use of those parts. We either continue to supply them, or leave the program.

    Which would be somewhat awkward...
    Fair enough. I didn't know the details of this - which, being a proper PBer - I took as no bar to commenting on the issue :wink:
    Tbh, it's the surveillance flights that are harder to understand. That feels like direct facilitation, and a waste of a resource that would better used over the Baltic or Black Sea.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,880
    If Nigel Farage does become PM, I expect him to be like Boris (just another form) and his Cabinet to fracture very quickly.

    But, that will be unlikely to be politically critical prior to the election.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,196
    In some ways Farage has been vindicated in that Lowe probably was getting too carried away with social media so he was right to sideline him, but he seemed to revel too much in using the political dark arts to do it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,272
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    It isn't. Crown in Parliament is supreme in the UK, we have no written constitution and the SC was originally the Law Lords in the House of Lords
    I agree. I made the same point in my Blob article
    Barty is misunderstanding the division of roles between the legislature, executive and judiciary. It's the latter's job to interpret existing laws.

    If Parliament wants to give ministers powers to interpret particular laws, it can do so - and does so quite regularly.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,219
    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    Neither is subservient to the other, nor should they be. Parliament is not subject to the Supreme Court, being in control of its own affairs, but notes that the SC's rulings on the law are binding on everyone and in legislating takes account of the SC's binding judgments. (Eg in the recent trans case in which the SC had the tough job of telling parliament what it meant when it legislated as parliament had no idea. Parliament is totally free to amend the legislation and notably isn't planning to).

    The SC is not subservient to parliament in that parliament can legislate but cannot direct what the SC shall decide about its meaning.

    In a mature and grown up democracy (unlike the current USA outfit) both sides try hard not to test the boundaries to the extreme. In the farcical Rwanda legislation the bit deeming Rwanda to be a'safe' country came close to this but its effect never got tested, thankfully.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,133
    OT, looking for advice from our seasoned travellers for a proposed trip to Sicily - a second day in Siracusa or a third day in Lipari? Already set on Cefalu and Stromboli.

    Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,272
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    It depends on how this spat plays out.

    If Lowe and Farage go all two scorpions in a bottle, tearing lumps out of each other via the courts for the next year or so, it's not going to do much for the party's prospects. And for now, that seems a bit more likely than a friendly chat over a pint to sort out their differences.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,880
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 177
    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,219
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    Time to extend the powers of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council to the United Kingdom.
    Isn't the Supreme Court more or less the JCPC just not under that name?

    Surely, in that case, it would be better to rename it to something less insufferably naff? Like (say) the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council?
    Judicial Committee of the House of Lords has a nice ring to it. In its absence we should, IMO, be thankful that we have a Supreme Court, though naffly named, which is of such high quality.

    SFAICS no other country is obliged to use them, sitting as the JCPC, as their highest court, but quite a few do.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,105
    edited 2:42PM

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,819
    @TSE
    well done, was listening to Joy Division on the way in to work this morning
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,990
    CatMan said:

    I predict this will cause no problems whatsoever

    https://news.sky.com/story/foreign-states-face-15-newspaper-ownership-limit-amid-telegraph-row-13367680

    "Foreign state investors would be allowed to hold stakes of up to 15% in British national newspapers, ministers are set to announce amid a two-year battle to resolve an impasse over The Daily Telegraph's ownership.

    Sky News has learnt that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport could announce as soon as Thursday that the new limit is to be imposed following a consultation lasting several months.
    "

    All this is a bit silly given the rate at which readership is declining. The game's moved.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,921

    @TSE
    well done, was listening to Joy Division on the way in to work this morning

    I am delighted so many people have spotted my subtle music reference in the headline.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,714

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Yes, Lowe would wish to align the party far more closely to MAGA, limiting its appeal.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,921
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    Time to extend the powers of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council to the United Kingdom.
    Isn't the Supreme Court more or less the JCPC just not under that name?

    Surely, in that case, it would be better to rename it to something less insufferably naff? Like (say) the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council?
    Judicial Committee of the House of Lords has a nice ring to it. In its absence we should, IMO, be thankful that we have a Supreme Court, though naffly named, which is of such high quality.

    SFAICS no other country is obliged to use them, sitting as the JCPC, as their highest court, but quite a few do.
    I prefer the period when we had Law Lords, a bit like Time Lords.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,559

    @TSE
    well done, was listening to Joy Division on the way in to work this morning

    I am delighted so many people have spotted my subtle music reference in the headline.
    I just thought 'he's lost control'!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,272
    algarkirk said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    Neither is subservient to the other, nor should they be. Parliament is not subject to the Supreme Court, being in control of its own affairs, but notes that the SC's rulings on the law are binding on everyone and in legislating takes account of the SC's binding judgments. (Eg in the recent trans case in which the SC had the tough job of telling parliament what it meant when it legislated as parliament had no idea. Parliament is totally free to amend the legislation and notably isn't planning to).

    The SC is not subservient to parliament in that parliament can legislate but cannot direct what the SC shall decide about its meaning.

    In a mature and grown up democracy (unlike the current USA outfit) both sides try hard not to test the boundaries to the extreme. In the farcical Rwanda legislation the bit deeming Rwanda to be a'safe' country came close to this but its effect never got tested, thankfully.
    The current case is an awkward one though.
    Government lawyers have acknowledged in their court submissions that the supply of F-35 components for potential use in Israel is in breach of the government's own arms export control laws.
    A point at dispute is whether the supply by UK of components into the F35 pool is sufficiently indirect, and our control over end use for stuff supplied to Israel by the US sufficiently attenuated, for the UK not to be in breach of those laws, given the overwhelming importance of the program for our national defence.

    There's also the point that the judgment of matters of national security - which are undoubtedly at stake here - is one for the executive and not for the courts.

    There are several things tangled up in the case, and it's really not a simple matter of Parliament is supreme / the courts are supreme, as there's no straightforward legal question to answer.

    I suspect the court will back the government in the end, from sheer pragmatism.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,819
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    Neither is subservient to the other, nor should they be. Parliament is not subject to the Supreme Court, being in control of its own affairs, but notes that the SC's rulings on the law are binding on everyone and in legislating takes account of the SC's binding judgments. (Eg in the recent trans case in which the SC had the tough job of telling parliament what it meant when it legislated as parliament had no idea. Parliament is totally free to amend the legislation and notably isn't planning to).

    The SC is not subservient to parliament in that parliament can legislate but cannot direct what the SC shall decide about its meaning.

    In a mature and grown up democracy (unlike the current USA outfit) both sides try hard not to test the boundaries to the extreme. In the farcical Rwanda legislation the bit deeming Rwanda to be a'safe' country came close to this but its effect never got tested, thankfully.
    The current case is an awkward one though.
    Government lawyers have acknowledged in their court submissions that the supply of F-35 components for potential use in Israel is in breach of the government's own arms export control laws.
    A point at dispute is whether the supply by UK of components into the F35 pool is sufficiently indirect, and our control over end use for stuff supplied to Israel by the US sufficiently attenuated, for the UK not to be in breach of those laws, given the overwhelming importance of the program for our national defence.

    There's also the point that the judgment of matters of national security - which are undoubtedly at stake here - is one for the executive and not for the courts.

    There are several things tangled up in the case, and it's really not a simple matter of Parliament is supreme / the courts are supreme, as there's no straightforward legal question to answer.

    I suspect the court will back the government in the end, from sheer pragmatism.
    maybe governments should just stop passing pointless grandstanding laws and make life easier for themselves
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,880
    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,661
    sarissa said:

    OT, looking for advice from our seasoned travellers for a proposed trip to Sicily - a second day in Siracusa or a third day in Lipari? Already set on Cefalu and Stromboli.

    Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

    Ragusa. This is where Inspector Moltalbano is filmed. It is simply stunning. Not far from Syracuse in the South East of the Island.

    Castebueno is not far from Cefalu up in the mountains but be careful of buses back to Cefalu they can finish the service quite early.

    Palermo is worth a look, although it is as run down as the Rhondda Valley.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,545

    @TSE
    well done, was listening to Joy Division on the way in to work this morning

    I am delighted so many people have spotted my subtle music reference in the headline.
    It was very subtle. You had to look hard to find it in Isolation. But I had True Faith in you.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,804
    edited 3:02PM

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Indeed: but the issue for Reform in attracting Conservative defections (which they should want to do), is that it helps when people get on with the Party leader.

    If you don't get on with the Party leader, and get kicked out of the Party, and you get the police sicc'ed on you.

    Well, it makes you think twice about jumping ship.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,559
    Sean_F said:

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Yes, Lowe would wish to align the party far more closely to MAGA, limiting its appeal.
    Brings in tens, perhaps hundreds, of millions of MAGAcoin which buys a lot of appeal over time.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,709

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
    One of my family worked 'near' him for a while. From what I was told it was Nigel's way or the highway!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,804
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    It depends on how this spat plays out.

    If Lowe and Farage go all two scorpions in a bottle, tearing lumps out of each other via the courts for the next year or so, it's not going to do much for the party's prospects. And for now, that seems a bit more likely than a friendly chat over a pint to sort out their differences.
    I don't think most Reform voters care that much: this isn't really a story that breaks through the Westminster bubble.

    However: possible Conservative defectors to Reform are entirely in the Westminster bubble.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,559
    rcs1000 said:

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Indeed: but the issue for Reform in attracting Conservative defections (which they should want to do), is that it helps when people get on with the Party leader.

    If you don't get on with the Party leader, and get kicked out of the Party, and you get the police sicc'ed on you.

    Well, it makes you think twice about jumping ship.
    If Bravermann goes over it'll be time to order a really large bag of popcorn.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,219
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    Neither is subservient to the other, nor should they be. Parliament is not subject to the Supreme Court, being in control of its own affairs, but notes that the SC's rulings on the law are binding on everyone and in legislating takes account of the SC's binding judgments. (Eg in the recent trans case in which the SC had the tough job of telling parliament what it meant when it legislated as parliament had no idea. Parliament is totally free to amend the legislation and notably isn't planning to).

    The SC is not subservient to parliament in that parliament can legislate but cannot direct what the SC shall decide about its meaning.

    In a mature and grown up democracy (unlike the current USA outfit) both sides try hard not to test the boundaries to the extreme. In the farcical Rwanda legislation the bit deeming Rwanda to be a'safe' country came close to this but its effect never got tested, thankfully.
    The current case is an awkward one though.
    Government lawyers have acknowledged in their court submissions that the supply of F-35 components for potential use in Israel is in breach of the government's own arms export control laws.
    A point at dispute is whether the supply by UK of components into the F35 pool is sufficiently indirect, and our control over end use for stuff supplied to Israel by the US sufficiently attenuated, for the UK not to be in breach of those laws, given the overwhelming importance of the program for our national defence.

    There's also the point that the judgment of matters of national security - which are undoubtedly at stake here - is one for the executive and not for the courts.

    There are several things tangled up in the case, and it's really not a simple matter of Parliament is supreme / the courts are supreme, as there's no straightforward legal question to answer.

    I suspect the court will back the government in the end, from sheer pragmatism.
    I am not up to speed on this case, but let us assume something about it ends up with the Supreme Court.

    A loose but useful definition of what questions end up in the Supreme Court is this: The SC deals with precise questions of law (not fact) which are non trivial, of public importance, and where the answer in not clear and certain from the current state of the law.

    So, for example, in the recent trans case the question they were answering, despite all the rhetoric and hot air, was magnificently short and simple. It went like this:

    "Is a person with a full gender recognition certificate (“GRC”) which recognises that their gender is female, a
    “woman” for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010 (“EA 2010”)?"


    and their answer can be summarised in one word: No.

    All stuff engaging how to apply the law to disputed/ambiguous facts is dealt with up to and including Court of Appeal level.

    Refining your question to being a proper legal one, proper for the SC to consider, is quite an art.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,196
    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Indeed: but the issue for Reform in attracting Conservative defections (which they should want to do), is that it helps when people get on with the Party leader.

    If you don't get on with the Party leader, and get kicked out of the Party, and you get the police sicc'ed on you.

    Well, it makes you think twice about jumping ship.
    If Bravermann goes over it'll be time to order a really large bag of popcorn.
    I'm not sure there's anything for Reform to gain from attracting any frontline Tory politician. It's not like we're in an era of political big beasts who might bring over supporters with them. Journalists and media figures are another matter and having the Tory ecosystem become sympathetic to Reform is helping them a lot.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,804

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Indeed: but the issue for Reform in attracting Conservative defections (which they should want to do), is that it helps when people get on with the Party leader.

    If you don't get on with the Party leader, and get kicked out of the Party, and you get the police sicc'ed on you.

    Well, it makes you think twice about jumping ship.
    If Bravermann goes over it'll be time to order a really large bag of popcorn.
    I'm not sure there's anything for Reform to gain from attracting any frontline Tory politician. It's not like we're in an era of political big beasts who might bring over supporters with them. Journalists and media figures are another matter and having the Tory ecosystem become sympathetic to Reform is helping them a lot.
    That's all very well, but what about my bet on the number of Reform MPs at the time of the next election?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,167
    FPT
    viewcode said:

    I am happy with the ILR news this morning.

    A lot of the toxicity of immigration would be reduced if there was a clear strategy (including numbers!) which acknowledged the benefits and negatives of immigration, and then defined the various means of entry (students, work, family) and of control.

    As many have pointed out, our population is ageing vast and inbound migration of some quantity is desirable. The public expectation is that both quantity AND quality will be managed.

    The asylum problem, is actually I think I different issue altogether, and at this juncture seemingly more intractable. Starmer should separate them out and appoint an Asylum Tsar or some such.

    I suspect the average British voter is utterly baffled by why we should be obligated to accept anyone who lands here from Albania, Sudan, Somalia, Iran, Iraq, Bangladesh or Afghanistan - nations we have very weak links with and have a culture very much at variance with our own.

    You get a very different reaction when it comes to Ukraine or Hong Kong, because they both touch different parts of our (freedom-loving) identity.
    I don’t think Brits are particularly freedom-loving.
    I wish they were, and maybe there’s a sub-terranean strand of the British psychology that is, but it’s kind of crushed by the curtain-twitching censoriousness that comes from living overwhelmingly in suburbs that pretend to be villages, and consumption of the Daily Mail.

    What I think the Brits REALLY like is fairness, and anger with queue jumpers is part of that...
    • America loves freedom. They decide their own destiny and safety is provided by self-defence and guns, not government and the police. This is most obvious in its less-densely populated areas
    • Britain loves safety. They decide other people's destiny and safety is provided by complaining to government and the police, not self-defence and guns. This is most obvious in its most-densely populated areas.
    point and order more and more brits are not turning to government and the police for protection

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65788756

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/10/police-britain-private-security-firms-powers

    https://www.ward-security.co.uk/news/private-policing/
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,219

    sarissa said:

    OT, looking for advice from our seasoned travellers for a proposed trip to Sicily - a second day in Siracusa or a third day in Lipari? Already set on Cefalu and Stromboli.

    Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

    Ragusa. This is where Inspector Moltalbano is filmed. It is simply stunning. Not far from Syracuse in the South East of the Island.

    Castebueno is not far from Cefalu up in the mountains but be careful of buses back to Cefalu they can finish the service quite early.

    Palermo is worth a look, although it is as run down as the Rhondda Valley.
    BTW, I don't know the films but Camilleri's Montalbano books, there are loads of them, are wonderful.
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 177
    rcs1000 said:

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Indeed: but the issue for Reform in attracting Conservative defections (which they should want to do), is that it helps when people get on with the Party leader.

    If you don't get on with the Party leader, and get kicked out of the Party, and you get the police sicc'ed on you.

    Well, it makes you think twice about jumping ship.
    I'm sure you are correct Robert and that probably does explain why there have been no defections yet.

    I just think If the polls hold on like this, we will start to get reluctant and very nervous Conservative MPs defecting anyway, on the basis that better 'pot luck' with Nigel today than 'humble pie' and the dole come the GE tommorow.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,579
    Entirely off topic (apart from reference to a time Nigel would have been in a quandary over which strong men to suck up to), has anyone watched A French Village/The Line set in WWII France? I’ve seen some positive references on FB but there are 7 series, so before committing it would be good to know if it’s tripe. Or les tripes.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,167
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    It depends on how this spat plays out.

    If Lowe and Farage go all two scorpions in a bottle, tearing lumps out of each other via the courts for the next year or so, it's not going to do much for the party's prospects. And for now, that seems a bit more likely than a friendly chat over a pint to sort out their differences.
    I don't think most Reform voters care that much: this isn't really a story that breaks through the Westminster bubble.

    However: possible Conservative defectors to Reform are entirely in the Westminster bubble.
    Yes but its not like there are many of them left
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,880

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
    One of my family worked 'near' him for a while. From what I was told it was Nigel's way or the highway!
    Which means conflict is inevitable that he is totally unable to manage.

    Politics is a dynamic art with different views and perspectives all the time.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 994
    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Another thing the political class gets wrong, because they can't resist commenting on it, is Israel/Palestine.

    The view of the average British voter is that they're as bad as each other, and we should stay out of it. And consequently they're not especially interested.

    So why does the government continue to support Israel with arms exports and RAF surveillance flights? Curious that they aren't following public opinion, particularly a Labour government.
    If public opinion is that they're not interested, then why shouldn't we have arms exports? Arms exports are good for business and good for our economy, so there should be a very good reason to prevent them.

    Seems the Government is following public opinion, just not loudmouth opinion.
    The polling is pretty clear, and consistent with what CR said. 58:18 for opposing exports to Israel, with 40% for strongly opposing.

    And that was April 2024. It will be even more overwhelming now.
    So the percentage opposing arms to Israel is no more than the percentage of Londoners saying immigration is too high?

    And I'd be skeptical about the nature of that polling data. I doubt many people are bring up arms to Israel as an issue unprompted.
    I just think your understanding of "not getting involved" is quite different to everyone else's.

    (They aren't bringing up housing either, despite how important you think that is)
    As a general principle we believe in the concepts of trade and supporting our allies.

    So engaging in trade and supporting our allies is "not getting involved".

    Cutting off trade is getting involved, given our general principles.
    It is strange to sell arms to a country led by someone we're obliged to arrest on suspicion of war crimes if he enters our country. A general principle of not doing that would seem more consistent.
    Ridiculous over-reach by a "court" we should not be a part of any more with such absurd rulings.

    Some good news from the conflict yesterday in that it seems that Israel may have got another leader of Hamas. Its funny how often many here were saying early on that Israel was in the wrong as they weren't going after the leaders are Hamas but don't say anything supportive when they do.

    Of course that leader was again as Hamas routinely does using a hospital as a base, meaning Israel were forced to hit a hospital to get to him.

    The problem with this conflict is that until Hamas is defeated there is nowhere safe for the Palestinians as Hamas turn everything, even hospitals, into legitimate targets by weaponising them as human shields.
    You can make a logical argument for either - or indeed both! - of:
    1. Leaving the ICC
    2. Stopping arms sales to Israel
    but being both a member and selling arms to someone for whom the court has an arrest warrant out for war crimes seems inconsistent. Either the law/court is an ass or we should halt weapons sales until Israel has a new leader. Or both.
    It's more complicated than that.

    The arms in question (at least those of any significance) are parts for the F35, for which the UK is the second largest supplier after the US.
    These go into a worldwide pool from which Israel is supplied (by the US).

    Contractually, there's no way in which we can place restrictions on the use of those parts. We either continue to supply them, or leave the program.

    Which would be somewhat awkward...
    Fair enough. I didn't know the details of this - which, being a proper PBer - I took as no bar to commenting on the issue :wink:
    It's another downside of tying ourselves so closely to the US for the procurement of defence systems.

    The F35 is a remarkable aircraft - but our versions are somewhat crippled (they still can't carry our most potent air to air and air to ground missiles, for example), and use of them in any given theatre is de facto subject to US approval.

    I'm very uncomfortable supplying Israel with kit that's very probably being used to target civilians (however much that decision is out of our hands). But we are in no position to do anything about it - until we make other defence arrangements.
    From previous posts by more informed PBers I understood that the F35 has specific mission programming which is undertaken in various places in the US.
    Does that mean that the US is programming Israeli F35 missions, and how does that sit with any potential legal action?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,219

    rcs1000 said:

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Indeed: but the issue for Reform in attracting Conservative defections (which they should want to do), is that it helps when people get on with the Party leader.

    If you don't get on with the Party leader, and get kicked out of the Party, and you get the police sicc'ed on you.

    Well, it makes you think twice about jumping ship.
    I'm sure you are correct Robert and that probably does explain why there have been no defections yet.

    I just think If the polls hold on like this, we will start to get reluctant and very nervous Conservative MPs defecting anyway, on the basis that better 'pot luck' with Nigel today than 'humble pie' and the dole come the GE tommorow.
    They have quite a long time to 'wait and see'. Within a couple of years another issue may emerge from the mist. Reform is popular because it is neither Labour nor Tory, and both are seen as tainted - with reason - by voters wanting a populist approach.

    The other party which is also not Tory or Labour and which has some appeal to a wide audience of people who would rather die than vote Reform is the LDs. The reaction to Starmer's 'Squalid Rivers of Stranger Islands' speech, if he sticks to that agenda, will do the LDs no harm if they play a sytraight bat, while the Tories are simply in self destruct mode.

    If this carries on - and it's hard to see the talent to stop it - the most obvious battle by 2029 may be Reform v LDs, with Tory MPs defecting both ways.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,661
    algarkirk said:

    sarissa said:

    OT, looking for advice from our seasoned travellers for a proposed trip to Sicily - a second day in Siracusa or a third day in Lipari? Already set on Cefalu and Stromboli.

    Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

    Ragusa. This is where Inspector Moltalbano is filmed. It is simply stunning. Not far from Syracuse in the South East of the Island.

    Castebueno is not far from Cefalu up in the mountains but be careful of buses back to Cefalu they can finish the service quite early.

    Palermo is worth a look, although it is as run down as the Rhondda Valley.
    BTW, I don't know the films but Camilleri's Montalbano books, there are loads of them, are wonderful.
    The TV films are great. I think they are still on iPlayer. Easy to follow with the subtitles. The locations are outstanding, particularly Ragusa.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,990
    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Another thing the political class gets wrong, because they can't resist commenting on it, is Israel/Palestine.

    The view of the average British voter is that they're as bad as each other, and we should stay out of it. And consequently they're not especially interested.

    So why does the government continue to support Israel with arms exports and RAF surveillance flights? Curious that they aren't following public opinion, particularly a Labour government.
    If public opinion is that they're not interested, then why shouldn't we have arms exports? Arms exports are good for business and good for our economy, so there should be a very good reason to prevent them.

    Seems the Government is following public opinion, just not loudmouth opinion.
    The polling is pretty clear, and consistent with what CR said. 58:18 for opposing exports to Israel, with 40% for strongly opposing.

    And that was April 2024. It will be even more overwhelming now.
    So the percentage opposing arms to Israel is no more than the percentage of Londoners saying immigration is too high?

    And I'd be skeptical about the nature of that polling data. I doubt many people are bring up arms to Israel as an issue unprompted.
    I just think your understanding of "not getting involved" is quite different to everyone else's.

    (They aren't bringing up housing either, despite how important you think that is)
    As a general principle we believe in the concepts of trade and supporting our allies.

    So engaging in trade and supporting our allies is "not getting involved".

    Cutting off trade is getting involved, given our general principles.
    It is strange to sell arms to a country led by someone we're obliged to arrest on suspicion of war crimes if he enters our country. A general principle of not doing that would seem more consistent.
    Ridiculous over-reach by a "court" we should not be a part of any more with such absurd rulings.

    Some good news from the conflict yesterday in that it seems that Israel may have got another leader of Hamas. Its funny how often many here were saying early on that Israel was in the wrong as they weren't going after the leaders are Hamas but don't say anything supportive when they do.

    Of course that leader was again as Hamas routinely does using a hospital as a base, meaning Israel were forced to hit a hospital to get to him.

    The problem with this conflict is that until Hamas is defeated there is nowhere safe for the Palestinians as Hamas turn everything, even hospitals, into legitimate targets by weaponising them as human shields.
    You can make a logical argument for either - or indeed both! - of:
    1. Leaving the ICC
    2. Stopping arms sales to Israel
    but being both a member and selling arms to someone for whom the court has an arrest warrant out for war crimes seems inconsistent. Either the law/court is an ass or we should halt weapons sales until Israel has a new leader. Or both.
    It's more complicated than that.

    The arms in question (at least those of any significance) are parts for the F35, for which the UK is the second largest supplier after the US.
    These go into a worldwide pool from which Israel is supplied (by the US).

    Contractually, there's no way in which we can place restrictions on the use of those parts. We either continue to supply them, or leave the program.

    Which would be somewhat awkward...
    Fair enough. I didn't know the details of this - which, being a proper PBer - I took as no bar to commenting on the issue :wink:
    It's another downside of tying ourselves so closely to the US for the procurement of defence systems.

    The F35 is a remarkable aircraft - but our versions are somewhat crippled (they still can't carry our most potent air to air and air to ground missiles, for example), and use of them in any given theatre is de facto subject to US approval.

    I'm very uncomfortable supplying Israel with kit that's very probably being used to target civilians (however much that decision is out of our hands). But we are in no position to do anything about it - until we make other defence arrangements.
    From previous posts by more informed PBers I understood that the F35 has specific mission programming which is undertaken in various places in the US.
    Does that mean that the US is programming Israeli F35 missions, and how does that sit with any potential legal action?
    IIRC Israel, unlike us, get to do their own mission programming.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,804
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    It depends on how this spat plays out.

    If Lowe and Farage go all two scorpions in a bottle, tearing lumps out of each other via the courts for the next year or so, it's not going to do much for the party's prospects. And for now, that seems a bit more likely than a friendly chat over a pint to sort out their differences.
    I don't think most Reform voters care that much: this isn't really a story that breaks through the Westminster bubble.

    However: possible Conservative defectors to Reform are entirely in the Westminster bubble.
    Yes but its not like there are many of them left
    :lol:
  • isamisam Posts: 41,602
    edited 3:39PM
    What is he going to do to them next?!

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,804

    rcs1000 said:

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Indeed: but the issue for Reform in attracting Conservative defections (which they should want to do), is that it helps when people get on with the Party leader.

    If you don't get on with the Party leader, and get kicked out of the Party, and you get the police sicc'ed on you.

    Well, it makes you think twice about jumping ship.
    I'm sure you are correct Robert and that probably does explain why there have been no defections yet.

    I just think If the polls hold on like this, we will start to get reluctant and very nervous Conservative MPs defecting anyway, on the basis that better 'pot luck' with Nigel today than 'humble pie' and the dole come the GE tommorow.
    There are going to be some constituencies where staying Conservative essentially guarantees a loss, so you are probably right.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,559

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Indeed: but the issue for Reform in attracting Conservative defections (which they should want to do), is that it helps when people get on with the Party leader.

    If you don't get on with the Party leader, and get kicked out of the Party, and you get the police sicc'ed on you.

    Well, it makes you think twice about jumping ship.
    If Bravermann goes over it'll be time to order a really large bag of popcorn.
    I'm not sure there's anything for Reform to gain from attracting any frontline Tory politician. It's not like we're in an era of political big beasts who might bring over supporters with them. Journalists and media figures are another matter and having the Tory ecosystem become sympathetic to Reform is helping them a lot.
    Well at some point they may need to find some sort of credibility as to being able to govern. So defectors with experience might be handy. (Even Suella level experience)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,804
    isam said:

    What is he going to do to them next?!

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Is he talking about Conservatives in the House of Commons?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,504
    isam said:

    What is he going to do to them next?!

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Bring them back in so that he can return them again? ;)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,219

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
    One of my family worked 'near' him for a while. From what I was told it was Nigel's way or the highway!
    Which means conflict is inevitable that he is totally unable to manage.

    Politics is a dynamic art with different views and perspectives all the time.
    So far no-one has joined Reform of whom the thoughtful normal person would say 'That's interesting' with the possible single exception of Tim Montgomerie - and I don't suppose anyone outside PB and anoraks (Venn diagram to follow) have heard of him.

    It's quite possiblt that the reasons for this are twofold and linked: Farage is the leader so no-one self respecting will go near it; and without Farage Reform are a house of cards.

    This would change if fifteen solid Tories defected together. They would both be a blunt instrument against Farage's Napolean tendency, and also an blood bank of replacements for him, and a few front benchers would could mostly count and read.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,490
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Lowe seems to have represented a strand of opinion that wanted to steer Reform to the right and he won the Musk endorsement as a result. Farrage strongly resisted this and politely told Musk where he could go (and Lowe too, far less politely.) By firmly rejecting any shift to the (dare we say radical?) right Farrage has gained more by this then he has lost.

    Indeed: but the issue for Reform in attracting Conservative defections (which they should want to do), is that it helps when people get on with the Party leader.

    If you don't get on with the Party leader, and get kicked out of the Party, and you get the police sicc'ed on you.

    Well, it makes you think twice about jumping ship.
    I'm sure you are correct Robert and that probably does explain why there have been no defections yet.

    I just think If the polls hold on like this, we will start to get reluctant and very nervous Conservative MPs defecting anyway, on the basis that better 'pot luck' with Nigel today than 'humble pie' and the dole come the GE tommorow.
    They have quite a long time to 'wait and see'. Within a couple of years another issue may emerge from the mist. Reform is popular because it is neither Labour nor Tory, and both are seen as tainted - with reason - by voters wanting a populist approach.

    The other party which is also not Tory or Labour and which has some appeal to a wide audience of people who would rather die than vote Reform is the LDs. The reaction to Starmer's 'Squalid Rivers of Stranger Islands' speech, if he sticks to that agenda, will do the LDs no harm if they play a sytraight bat, while the Tories are simply in self destruct mode.

    If this carries on - and it's hard to see the talent to stop it - the most obvious battle by 2029 may be Reform v LDs, with Tory MPs defecting both ways.
    I'm just now realising that there are 4 parties competing for the accolade of Most Repugnant To Me.

    Good evening, everyone.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,338

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
    One of my family worked 'near' him for a while. From what I was told it was Nigel's way or the highway!
    Which is probably quite closely connected to why Nigel is currently leading the most popular political party in the country.

    His only route to power requires a degree of ruthless "get with the program or get out", especially when dealing with people who have hobby horses not very closely aigned to what the public wants.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,545
    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Another thing the political class gets wrong, because they can't resist commenting on it, is Israel/Palestine.

    The view of the average British voter is that they're as bad as each other, and we should stay out of it. And consequently they're not especially interested.

    So why does the government continue to support Israel with arms exports and RAF surveillance flights? Curious that they aren't following public opinion, particularly a Labour government.
    If public opinion is that they're not interested, then why shouldn't we have arms exports? Arms exports are good for business and good for our economy, so there should be a very good reason to prevent them.

    Seems the Government is following public opinion, just not loudmouth opinion.
    The polling is pretty clear, and consistent with what CR said. 58:18 for opposing exports to Israel, with 40% for strongly opposing.

    And that was April 2024. It will be even more overwhelming now.
    So the percentage opposing arms to Israel is no more than the percentage of Londoners saying immigration is too high?

    And I'd be skeptical about the nature of that polling data. I doubt many people are bring up arms to Israel as an issue unprompted.
    I just think your understanding of "not getting involved" is quite different to everyone else's.

    (They aren't bringing up housing either, despite how important you think that is)
    As a general principle we believe in the concepts of trade and supporting our allies.

    So engaging in trade and supporting our allies is "not getting involved".

    Cutting off trade is getting involved, given our general principles.
    It is strange to sell arms to a country led by someone we're obliged to arrest on suspicion of war crimes if he enters our country. A general principle of not doing that would seem more consistent.
    Ridiculous over-reach by a "court" we should not be a part of any more with such absurd rulings.

    Some good news from the conflict yesterday in that it seems that Israel may have got another leader of Hamas. Its funny how often many here were saying early on that Israel was in the wrong as they weren't going after the leaders are Hamas but don't say anything supportive when they do.

    Of course that leader was again as Hamas routinely does using a hospital as a base, meaning Israel were forced to hit a hospital to get to him.

    The problem with this conflict is that until Hamas is defeated there is nowhere safe for the Palestinians as Hamas turn everything, even hospitals, into legitimate targets by weaponising them as human shields.
    You can make a logical argument for either - or indeed both! - of:
    1. Leaving the ICC
    2. Stopping arms sales to Israel
    but being both a member and selling arms to someone for whom the court has an arrest warrant out for war crimes seems inconsistent. Either the law/court is an ass or we should halt weapons sales until Israel has a new leader. Or both.
    It's more complicated than that.

    The arms in question (at least those of any significance) are parts for the F35, for which the UK is the second largest supplier after the US.
    These go into a worldwide pool from which Israel is supplied (by the US).

    Contractually, there's no way in which we can place restrictions on the use of those parts. We either continue to supply them, or leave the program.

    Which would be somewhat awkward...
    Fair enough. I didn't know the details of this - which, being a proper PBer - I took as no bar to commenting on the issue :wink:
    It's another downside of tying ourselves so closely to the US for the procurement of defence systems.

    The F35 is a remarkable aircraft - but our versions are somewhat crippled (they still can't carry our most potent air to air and air to ground missiles, for example), and use of them in any given theatre is de facto subject to US approval.

    I'm very uncomfortable supplying Israel with kit that's very probably being used to target civilians (however much that decision is out of our hands). But we are in no position to do anything about it - until we make other defence arrangements.
    From previous posts by more informed PBers I understood that the F35 has specific mission programming which is undertaken in various places in the US.
    Does that mean that the US is programming Israeli F35 missions, and how does that sit with any potential legal action?
    No. The F35 variant that Israel uses is designated the F35I. Unlike other countries including UK, the Israelis insisted that the mission programming for the F35I be written and conducted by Israelis in Israel.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,504
    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
    One of my family worked 'near' him for a while. From what I was told it was Nigel's way or the highway!
    Which means conflict is inevitable that he is totally unable to manage.

    Politics is a dynamic art with different views and perspectives all the time.
    So far no-one has joined Reform of whom the thoughtful normal person would say 'That's interesting' with the possible single exception of Tim Montgomerie - and I don't suppose anyone outside PB and anoraks (Venn diagram to follow) have heard of him.

    It's quite possiblt that the reasons for this are twofold and linked: Farage is the leader so no-one self respecting will go near it; and without Farage Reform are a house of cards.

    This would change if fifteen solid Tories defected together. They would both be a blunt instrument against Farage's Napolean tendency, and also an blood bank of replacements for him, and a few front benchers would could mostly count and read.
    The Farage comparison with Napoleon is an interesting one. Both are/were talented narcissists who saw their vision as being the only one, without any hint of argument or compromise with those supposedly on their own side. If the comparison continues, then Farage will bring disaster to Europe, with millions of dead, with no positive result aside from his own self-aggrandisement.

    And idiots two centuries later will forget those dead, and laud him.

    Putin's a little further down the same path. And it's odd (not really) how Russia-friendly Farage has been.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,436
    isam said:

    What is he going to do to them next?!

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Probably going to be droned, like the fly-tippers.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,602

    isam said:

    What is he going to do to them next?!

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Bring them back in so that he can return them again? ;)
    Labour strategists must really believe the way to get the public to warm to Sir Keir is to present him as a kind of Tough guy Ultimate Cop who is solely responsible for law & order in the country. He presented himself as the only arbiter of justice when DPP, other than the cases that ‘never crossed his desk’. These sound like they’ve been written by someone who has just done some steroids at the gym
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,334
    edited 3:53PM
    Did any PBers chuckle like Reeves at Starmer's 'witty' "rubbish" response at PMQs?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,921
    edited 3:53PM
    isam said:

    isam said:

    What is he going to do to them next?!

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Bring them back in so that he can return them again? ;)
    Labour strategists must really believe the way to get the public to warm to Sir Keir is to present him as a kind of Tough guy Ultimate Cop who is solely responsible for law & order in the country. He presented himself as the only arbiter of justice when DPP, other than the cases that ‘never crossed his desk’. These sound like they’ve been written by someone who has just done some steroids at the gym
    Starmer’s like Batman.

    Both wore capes*, both fought for justice.

    *DavidL will tell you it is a gown but it is a cape.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,921

    Did any PBers chuckle like Reeves at Starmer's 'witty' "rubbish" response at PMQs?

    I did.

    I called 999 for Liz Savile Roberts because she got burned.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,219

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT

    ... The highest UK court should be the Supreme Court and it should be subservient to Parliament. The rule of law is different to the rule of lawyers.

    If the Supreme Court is subservient to Parliament, then it's not Supreme :)

    (narrator: Parliament can function as a court if it wishes and IIRC it still has a small jail/holding area)
    Time to extend the powers of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council to the United Kingdom.
    Isn't the Supreme Court more or less the JCPC just not under that name?

    Surely, in that case, it would be better to rename it to something less insufferably naff? Like (say) the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council?
    Judicial Committee of the House of Lords has a nice ring to it. In its absence we should, IMO, be thankful that we have a Supreme Court, though naffly named, which is of such high quality.

    SFAICS no other country is obliged to use them, sitting as the JCPC, as their highest court, but quite a few do.
    I prefer the period when we had Law Lords, a bit like Time Lords.
    A more leisurely age, with judgments sounding more like a sermon composed by PG Wodehouse, like this from Viscount Sankey in the great Woolmington v DPP, (1935) when a man's life following conviction for murder hung by a legal golden thread, and he survived:

    It is true as stated by the Court of Appeal that there is apparent authority for the law as laid down by the learned judge. But your Lordships' House has had the advantage of a prolonged and exhaustive inquiry dealing with the matter in debate from the earliest times, an advantage which was not shared by either of the Courts below. Indeed your Lordships were referred to legal propositions dating as far back as the reign of King Canute (994–1035). But I do not think it is necessary for the purpose of this opinion to go as far back as that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,272
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    It depends on how this spat plays out.

    If Lowe and Farage go all two scorpions in a bottle, tearing lumps out of each other via the courts for the next year or so, it's not going to do much for the party's prospects. And for now, that seems a bit more likely than a friendly chat over a pint to sort out their differences.
    I don't think most Reform voters care that much: this isn't really a story that breaks through the Westminster bubble...
    It would if it led the tabloid headlines every month, for half a year. Which is not impossible.
    See, for example, the Wagatha nonsense.

  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,334

    Did any PBers chuckle like Reeves at Starmer's 'witty' "rubbish" response at PMQs?

    I did.

    I called 999 for Liz Savile Roberts because she got burned.
    Dave would wince at your sense of 'humour'
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,335
    edited 3:59PM
    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
    One of my family worked 'near' him for a while. From what I was told it was Nigel's way or the highway!
    Which means conflict is inevitable that he is totally unable to manage.

    Politics is a dynamic art with different views and perspectives all the time.
    So far no-one has joined Reform of whom the thoughtful normal person would say 'That's interesting' with the possible single exception of Tim Montgomerie - and I don't suppose anyone outside PB and anoraks (Venn diagram to follow) have heard of him.

    It's quite possiblt that the reasons for this are twofold and linked: Farage is the leader so no-one self respecting will go near it; and without Farage Reform are a house of cards.

    This would change if fifteen solid Tories defected together. They would both be a blunt instrument against Farage's Napolean tendency, and also an blood bank of replacements for him, and a few front benchers would could mostly count and read.
    I don't find Tim Montgomerie joining RefUK interesting at all. His whole career has been an attempt to get attention focused on Tim Montgomerie, and everything he does can be understood through that, rather than bothering looking for some form of consistent broader set of principles.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,602

    isam said:

    isam said:

    What is he going to do to them next?!

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Bring them back in so that he can return them again? ;)
    Labour strategists must really believe the way to get the public to warm to Sir Keir is to present him as a kind of Tough guy Ultimate Cop who is solely responsible for law & order in the country. He presented himself as the only arbiter of justice when DPP, other than the cases that ‘never crossed his desk’. These sound like they’ve been written by someone who has just done some steroids at the gym
    Starmer’s like Batman.

    Both wore capes*, both fought for justice.

    *DavidL will tell you it is a gown but it is a cape.
    It does seem like they’re trying to make him into some kind of superhero, the way his social media is written.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,921

    Did any PBers chuckle like Reeves at Starmer's 'witty' "rubbish" response at PMQs?

    I did.

    I called 999 for Liz Savile Roberts because she got burned.
    Dave would wince at your sense of 'humour'
    Calm down dear.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,315

    isam said:

    isam said:

    What is he going to do to them next?!

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Bring them back in so that he can return them again? ;)
    Labour strategists must really believe the way to get the public to warm to Sir Keir is to present him as a kind of Tough guy Ultimate Cop who is solely responsible for law & order in the country. He presented himself as the only arbiter of justice when DPP, other than the cases that ‘never crossed his desk’. These sound like they’ve been written by someone who has just done some steroids at the gym
    Starmer’s like Batman.

    Both wore capes*, both fought for justice.

    *DavidL will tell you it is a gown but it is a cape.
    As Edna explained in the Incredibles: “ no capes”.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,196

    Did any PBers chuckle like Reeves at Starmer's 'witty' "rubbish" response at PMQs?

    I did.

    I called 999 for Liz Savile Roberts because she got burned.
    Dave would wince at your sense of 'humour'
    Calm down dear.
    Keep taking the tablets.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,602
    theProle said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
    One of my family worked 'near' him for a while. From what I was told it was Nigel's way or the highway!
    Which is probably quite closely connected to why Nigel is currently leading the most popular political party in the country.

    His only route to power requires a degree of ruthless "get with the program or get out", especially when dealing with people who have hobby horses not very closely aigned to what the public wants.
    People constantly criticise him/his parties for lacking discipline/attracting loons, and he’s obviously making a big effort to make Reform more sensible and less associated with Tommy Robinson sympathisers (whilst keeping their votes)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,196
    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,219

    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
    One of my family worked 'near' him for a while. From what I was told it was Nigel's way or the highway!
    Which means conflict is inevitable that he is totally unable to manage.

    Politics is a dynamic art with different views and perspectives all the time.
    So far no-one has joined Reform of whom the thoughtful normal person would say 'That's interesting' with the possible single exception of Tim Montgomerie - and I don't suppose anyone outside PB and anoraks (Venn diagram to follow) have heard of him.

    It's quite possiblt that the reasons for this are twofold and linked: Farage is the leader so no-one self respecting will go near it; and without Farage Reform are a house of cards.

    This would change if fifteen solid Tories defected together. They would both be a blunt instrument against Farage's Napolean tendency, and also an blood bank of replacements for him, and a few front benchers would could mostly count and read.
    The Farage comparison with Napoleon is an interesting one. Both are/were talented narcissists who saw their vision as being the only one, without any hint of argument or compromise with those supposedly on their own side. If the comparison continues, then Farage will bring disaster to Europe, with millions of dead, with no positive result aside from his own self-aggrandisement.

    And idiots two centuries later will forget those dead, and laud him.

    Putin's a little further down the same path. And it's odd (not really) how Russia-friendly Farage has been.
    I think the comparison has limits. Hegel and Beethoven were deceived by Napoleon (Hegel to the point of insane ramblings, Beethoven recovered and recanted). I don't think Farage would trouble either for long. Neither, thankfully, is he Nietzsche's Ubermensch, a position occupied by Trump for now. Brits have a sense of humour and still watch Dad's Army for its moral clarity, quite rightly.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,921
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    What is he going to do to them next?!

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.


    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Bring them back in so that he can return them again? ;)
    Labour strategists must really believe the way to get the public to warm to Sir Keir is to present him as a kind of Tough guy Ultimate Cop who is solely responsible for law & order in the country. He presented himself as the only arbiter of justice when DPP, other than the cases that ‘never crossed his desk’. These sound like they’ve been written by someone who has just done some steroids at the gym
    Starmer’s like Batman.

    Both wore capes*, both fought for justice.

    *DavidL will tell you it is a gown but it is a cape.
    As Edna explained in the Incredibles: “ no capes”.
    This is why I decided to not become a barrister, the uniform is boring.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,056

    Did any PBers chuckle like Reeves at Starmer's 'witty' "rubbish" response at PMQs?

    I did.

    I called 999 for Liz Savile Roberts because she got burned.
    Dave would wince at your sense of 'humour'
    I'd say it was neither particularly funny nor particularly terrible. Oppo MP asks crap-insult-disguised-as-question; PM replies with lame-but-functional comeback which wasn't sparkling but was no ruder than the question which prompted it. It's not an exchange either of them came out of with any real credit. It doesn't warrant any particular bewailing of unwoke behaviour, just a weary low-level lament that this is what our politics looks like.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,334
    Cookie said:

    Did any PBers chuckle like Reeves at Starmer's 'witty' "rubbish" response at PMQs?

    I did.

    I called 999 for Liz Savile Roberts because she got burned.
    Dave would wince at your sense of 'humour'
    I'd say it was neither particularly funny nor particularly terrible. Oppo MP asks crap-insult-disguised-as-question; PM replies with lame-but-functional comeback which wasn't sparkling but was no ruder than the question which prompted it. It's not an exchange either of them came out of with any real credit. It doesn't warrant any particular bewailing of unwoke behaviour, just a weary low-level lament that this is what our politics looks like.
    It wasn't a proper question, and didn't deserve a proper answer

    But wouldn't something about Welsh independence have been smarter?

    He sounded like a stupid schoolboy; hardly prime ministerial..
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,545
    ...
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,259
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Tellingly, the one who Farage hasn't fallen out with is Aaron Banks - which probably says something about how Farage interacts with him, as against other people.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,219
    theProle said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
    One of my family worked 'near' him for a while. From what I was told it was Nigel's way or the highway!
    Which is probably quite closely connected to why Nigel is currently leading the most popular political party in the country.

    His only route to power requires a degree of ruthless "get with the program or get out", especially when dealing with people who have hobby horses not very closely aigned to what the public wants.
    'What the public wants' is a question linked to the constraints of reality. Otherwise it's a wishlist, and even I can produce one of those. Like other parties Farage has not yet articulated a properly costed vision of 'what the public wants' in parallel with their wants and needs WRT spend, tax, deficit, debt, borrowing, stable public finances, inflation, interest rates, and public services. Since there is no other matter which goes so to heart of the job he wants, it's a bit of a gap.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,513
    edited 4:13PM
    @sarissa

    I don't know how mobile you are, but Sicily has two world class outstanding historic monuments. Both utterly breathtaking, and both worth a day's drive to see

    The first is well known: Agrigento, the Valley of the Temples

    Probably the greatest collection of Greek temples anywhere on earth

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valle_dei_Templi

    Try and linger for twilight. It is stupendously lovely, and atmospheric, then they light it all up. Wow

    The second is rather obscure, but shouldn't be. Villa Romana del Casale right in the middle of the island

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Romana_del_Casale

    Perhaps the greatest surviving Roman villa? It will blow your mind

    Enjoy!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,554
    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    If I were a Reform MP, the thing I would be most concerned about would not be the reputational damage of legal actions against Reform, it would be the fact that Farage has fallen out with almost everyone he's ever worked with.

    He fell out with Alan Sked, and Diane James, and Douglas Carswell, and Ben Habib, and now Rupert Lowe. And those are just the ones I can think of on the top of my head.

    These fallings out aren't minor either: usually people end up leaving the party. (And sometimes fleeing to Alabama.)

    So, I don't expect this to negatively impact Farage's poll ratings... but it might make me think twice as an MP if I wanted to jump ship.

    Which means at some point it got angry and disrespectful, and then deeply personal (probably). He's (probably) utterly untrustworthy and impossible to work with, and never has anyone's back or interests at heart but his own. Maybe he knocks down anyone who vaguely approaches his profile too.

    FWIW, I saw him speak when he was a 'regular' UKIP MEP back in 2001. He was absolutely the blokey guy with a pint at the bar - we had one - but he was very quick to anger when questioned, as one of the audience did. Very politely.
    Is your last paragraph about Nige or Rupes?
    Nige
    One of my family worked 'near' him for a while. From what I was told it was Nigel's way or the highway!
    Which means conflict is inevitable that he is totally unable to manage.

    Politics is a dynamic art with different views and perspectives all the time.
    So far no-one has joined Reform of whom the thoughtful normal person would say 'That's interesting' with the possible single exception of Tim Montgomerie - and I don't suppose anyone outside PB and anoraks (Venn diagram to follow) have heard of him.

    It's quite possiblt that the reasons for this are twofold and linked: Farage is the leader so no-one self respecting will go near it; and without Farage Reform are a house of cards.

    This would change if fifteen solid Tories defected together. They would both be a blunt instrument against Farage's Napolean tendency, and also an blood bank of replacements for him, and a few front benchers would could mostly count and read.
    Succession is the key to Reform. Suella Braverman and Liz Truss might both fancy their chances should the Downing Street bus driver get Farage (60 but likes the fags and booze) but they can't both get the job and there is no point in defecting early to play Farage's lapdog, best wait and see, especially as there might be a vacancy closer to home first.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,396
    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: A leaked recording reveals top Tory Chris Philp admitted the UK couldn’t return asylum seekers to Europe post-Brexit, despite promises made at the time.

    @SamCoatesSky
    has all the details.

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1922685876569595995
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,513

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1922663370018156919

    I’ve already returned over 24,000 people with no right to be here.

    And I won’t stop there.

    He sounds quite mad

    Also, that tweet gives the vague impression, "I have no right to do this, no right to be sitting here as prime minister"
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