I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.
TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
Why ? Are they of Pakistani heritage ? The war is India v Pakistan not India v Islam.
How did modern Pakistan and India come about?
Not really answered my question.
Will all Muslims naturally support Pakistan, they don’t in the case of Palestine.
Kashmir strikes me as more of a traditional irredentist conflict, like Donbass and Crimea, or Alsace-Lorraine, rather than a religious proxy war.
I used to work with a couple of Indian guys, proud British Hindus, who only ever got animated over this issue. I remember there was some spat in the Kargil Mountains. They weren’t happy. Their view was very much it’s our land not theirs. Their animosity was to Pakistan rather than Islam. My limited experience of people emotionally involved in this conflict mirrors your view.
However this was a while ago and the dynamic may have changed since then.
As far as I am concerned, Kashmir (give or take some Hindu-majority border areas) should really have gone to Pakistan in 1947. But that's just me.
I think it pretty certain that Kashmir would vote to join Pakistan, which is why India won't hold one.
Though opinion polling in the past has shown independence as a more popular option. Sadly not on offer.
In 2011: (2021 Census postponed across india)
Jammu Division was 68% Hindu, 30% Muslim Kashmir Division was 97% Muslim, 2% Hindu Kargil Division was 77% Muslim, 14% Buddhist, 7% Hindu Leh Division was 66% Buddhist, 17% Hindu, 14% Muslim
Gaza will be destroyed says Israel. Ukraine back on the offensive in Kursk. India and Pakistan lobbing nukes. How's Donald's Peace Prize? I'm also old enough to remember being told no one would dare do owt for fear of not knowing what his reaction would be... We know now. Bumbling blowhard idiocy. Time for the PRC now they've got the snooker sorted.
Until they mended it, the Portland vase was the best candidate for a noble piece prize
It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?
Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain
Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave
This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course
I think it might have been Barty who called out your 4* hotel lie last week, citing Copthorne who were undergoing difficult trading prior to COVID and latterly asylum. Whoever it was specified the requirements for a hotel to be 4* and explained that all the 4*edness had been stripped out of Copthorne locations for our asylum seeking friends.
Yet you are still allowed to post nonsense unchallenged. What next? Quoting Andrew Tate's X account as source material. Oh wait, apologies, that was Nigel Farage.
Good luck in going to the voters while saying “it WAS a four star hotel when we took it over and gave it to asylum seekers, but we closed the gym and they only get laundry done twice a week, and free heath care, and immediate dental work, and you’re paying for it all, and you can’t use the hotel. So it’s really only like a weird 3 star with a private hospital. That you are paying for. So that these men can wander around your town freaking you out. Vote for more of this!”
I don't think people pointing out that you are full of shit are trying to persuade voters of anything. They are just trying to point out to you that you are full of shit.
Why is it so difficult for you to grasp this simple point?
Person A: "asylum seekers are being held in four star hotels" Person B: "actually, no, when the governmemt leases them for asylum seekers, some of the facilities on which stars are awarded are shut down so technically it is no longer a four star hotel".
Why is it so difficult to see that while person B is not wrong on that point of detail, he is very much losing the argument.
You also seen to have completely missed my very simple point.
Nobody is trying to persuade Leon that asylum seekers are great.
They are engaged in the utterly futile endeavor of trying to get him to occasionally post something that isn't dishonest.
It's not dishonest. The issue you are picking up on changes the substance of what is being said so little it is almost irrelevant. As a conparison: Person A: I'm going to Manchester to watch football. Manchester United are my favourite team I'm really looking forward to watching them play at their home ground. Person B: Manchester United play their home matches at Old Trafford, which is outside the city of Manchester. You are being dishonest.
You see how person B is technically correct and yet the detail he is picking up on is fundamentally unimportant to the point person A is making? We engage in massive nitpickery online, but noone in the real world would accuse person A of lying.
But Leon is lying. This isn’t nitpicking. Asylum seekers are not housed in 4-star hotels. They are sometimes housed in what used to be 4-star hotels.
It’s like saying that Leon had sex with a 14-year old prostitute. He responds that she was of age, and the first person then says, “But she used to be 14.” It’s the same logic.
Except the hotels are still there and still being advertised as 4-star hotels all over the internet. It's not the same logic.
Who was the Supreme Allied Commander who oversaw D day and victory in Europe?
A. General Dwight Eisenhower B. Sir Winston Churchill C. Captain George Mainwaring D. General Bernard Montgomery
Popular and actual answers to follow.
All of the above.
A) Military commander B Politician who insisted on more divisions. C) Organised the lynch pin of rear area defence D) Kept Eisenhower on his toes by wanting his job so obviously.
The episode of Dad's Army on right now is where Godfrey's courage is called into question.
Amid the pratfalling and character comedy, there could be serious intent, too. This 1969 story, co-writer Jimmy Perry’s favourite, is a potent example.
Mainwaring is appalled to learn that Private Godfrey was a “conchie” in the First World War, and the captain’s wrath merely inspires the other men to shun him. The way in which Godfrey is restored in his friends’ eyes — putting actor Arnold Ridley, himself an unrecognised war hero, in the spotlight — is restrained and poignant. https://www.radiotimes.com/programme/b-bdhb8z/dads-army-season-3/?episode=b-byk4ru
I think that is the only episode of Dads Army that ever stuck with me. Really quite moving.
For Zat, You Go On Zee Liiiist!
I liked the one where Mainwaring was hanging off a barrage balloon infront of a primitive green screen effect. I howled.
Yes, the title being, rather aptly, The Day the Balloon Went Up.
Back then it was called CSO. Often used in Dr Who.
Colour Separation Overlay. I think the BBC used that because "chroma-key" was a trade name.
It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?
Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain
Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave
This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course
I think it might have been Barty who called out your 4* hotel lie last week, citing Copthorne who were undergoing difficult trading prior to COVID and latterly asylum. Whoever it was specified the requirements for a hotel to be 4* and explained that all the 4*edness had been stripped out of Copthorne locations for our asylum seeking friends.
Yet you are still allowed to post nonsense unchallenged. What next? Quoting Andrew Tate's X account as source material. Oh wait, apologies, that was Nigel Farage.
Good luck in going to the voters while saying “it WAS a four star hotel when we took it over and gave it to asylum seekers, but we closed the gym and they only get laundry done twice a week, and free heath care, and immediate dental work, and you’re paying for it all, and you can’t use the hotel. So it’s really only like a weird 3 star with a private hospital. That you are paying for. So that these men can wander around your town freaking you out. Vote for more of this!”
I don't think people pointing out that you are full of shit are trying to persuade voters of anything. They are just trying to point out to you that you are full of shit.
Why is it so difficult for you to grasp this simple point?
Person A: "asylum seekers are being held in four star hotels" Person B: "actually, no, when the governmemt leases them for asylum seekers, some of the facilities on which stars are awarded are shut down so technically it is no longer a four star hotel".
Why is it so difficult to see that while person B is not wrong on that point of detail, he is very much losing the argument.
You also seen to have completely missed my very simple point.
Nobody is trying to persuade Leon that asylum seekers are great.
They are engaged in the utterly futile endeavor of trying to get him to occasionally post something that isn't dishonest.
It's not dishonest. The issue you are picking up on changes the substance of what is being said so little it is almost irrelevant. As a conparison: Person A: I'm going to Manchester to watch football. Manchester United are my favourite team I'm really looking forward to watching them play at their home ground. Person B: Manchester United play their home matches at Old Trafford, which is outside the city of Manchester. You are being dishonest.
You see how person B is technically correct and yet the detail he is picking up on is fundamentally unimportant to the point person A is making? We engage in massive nitpickery online, but noone in the real world would accuse person A of lying.
But Leon is lying. This isn’t nitpicking. Asylum seekers are not housed in 4-star hotels. They are sometimes housed in what used to be 4-star hotels.
It’s like saying that Leon had sex with a 14-year old prostitute. He responds that she was of age, and the first person then says, “But she used to be 14.” It’s the same logic.
Except the hotels are still there and still being advertised as 4-star hotels all over the internet. It's not the same logic.
I think you'll find there are quite a few escorts who also don't update their age or the 'ratings' they had 20 years ago.
It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?
Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain
Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave
This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course
I think it might have been Barty who called out your 4* hotel lie last week, citing Copthorne who were undergoing difficult trading prior to COVID and latterly asylum. Whoever it was specified the requirements for a hotel to be 4* and explained that all the 4*edness had been stripped out of Copthorne locations for our asylum seeking friends.
Yet you are still allowed to post nonsense unchallenged. What next? Quoting Andrew Tate's X account as source material. Oh wait, apologies, that was Nigel Farage.
Good luck in going to the voters while saying “it WAS a four star hotel when we took it over and gave it to asylum seekers, but we closed the gym and they only get laundry done twice a week, and free heath care, and immediate dental work, and you’re paying for it all, and you can’t use the hotel. So it’s really only like a weird 3 star with a private hospital. That you are paying for. So that these men can wander around your town freaking you out. Vote for more of this!”
I don't think people pointing out that you are full of shit are trying to persuade voters of anything. They are just trying to point out to you that you are full of shit.
Why is it so difficult for you to grasp this simple point?
Person A: "asylum seekers are being held in four star hotels" Person B: "actually, no, when the governmemt leases them for asylum seekers, some of the facilities on which stars are awarded are shut down so technically it is no longer a four star hotel".
Why is it so difficult to see that while person B is not wrong on that point of detail, he is very much losing the argument.
You also seen to have completely missed my very simple point.
Nobody is trying to persuade Leon that asylum seekers are great.
They are engaged in the utterly futile endeavor of trying to get him to occasionally post something that isn't dishonest.
It's not dishonest. The issue you are picking up on changes the substance of what is being said so little it is almost irrelevant. As a conparison: Person A: I'm going to Manchester to watch football. Manchester United are my favourite team I'm really looking forward to watching them play at their home ground. Person B: Manchester United play their home matches at Old Trafford, which is outside the city of Manchester. You are being dishonest.
You see how person B is technically correct and yet the detail he is picking up on is fundamentally unimportant to the point person A is making? We engage in massive nitpickery online, but noone in the real world would accuse person A of lying.
But Leon is lying. This isn’t nitpicking. Asylum seekers are not housed in 4-star hotels. They are sometimes housed in what used to be 4-star hotels.
It’s like saying that Leon had sex with a 14-year old prostitute. He responds that she was of age, and the first person then says, “But she used to be 14.” It’s the same logic.
Comments like this simply tell me I have successfully wound you up. Which I enjoy
It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?
Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain
Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave
This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course
I think it might have been Barty who called out your 4* hotel lie last week, citing Copthorne who were undergoing difficult trading prior to COVID and latterly asylum. Whoever it was specified the requirements for a hotel to be 4* and explained that all the 4*edness had been stripped out of Copthorne locations for our asylum seeking friends.
Yet you are still allowed to post nonsense unchallenged. What next? Quoting Andrew Tate's X account as source material. Oh wait, apologies, that was Nigel Farage.
Good luck in going to the voters while saying “it WAS a four star hotel when we took it over and gave it to asylum seekers, but we closed the gym and they only get laundry done twice a week, and free heath care, and immediate dental work, and you’re paying for it all, and you can’t use the hotel. So it’s really only like a weird 3 star with a private hospital. That you are paying for. So that these men can wander around your town freaking you out. Vote for more of this!”
I don't think people pointing out that you are full of shit are trying to persuade voters of anything. They are just trying to point out to you that you are full of shit.
Why is it so difficult for you to grasp this simple point?
Person A: "asylum seekers are being held in four star hotels" Person B: "actually, no, when the governmemt leases them for asylum seekers, some of the facilities on which stars are awarded are shut down so technically it is no longer a four star hotel".
Why is it so difficult to see that while person B is not wrong on that point of detail, he is very much losing the argument.
You also seen to have completely missed my very simple point.
Nobody is trying to persuade Leon that asylum seekers are great.
They are engaged in the utterly futile endeavor of trying to get him to occasionally post something that isn't dishonest.
It's not dishonest. The issue you are picking up on changes the substance of what is being said so little it is almost irrelevant. As a conparison: Person A: I'm going to Manchester to watch football. Manchester United are my favourite team I'm really looking forward to watching them play at their home ground. Person B: Manchester United play their home matches at Old Trafford, which is outside the city of Manchester. You are being dishonest.
You see how person B is technically correct and yet the detail he is picking up on is fundamentally unimportant to the point person A is making? We engage in massive nitpickery online, but noone in the real world would accuse person A of lying.
But Leon is lying. This isn’t nitpicking. Asylum seekers are not housed in 4-star hotels. They are sometimes housed in what used to be 4-star hotels.
It’s like saying that Leon had sex with a 14-year old prostitute. He responds that she was of age, and the first person then says, “But she used to be 14.” It’s the same logic.
Except the hotels are still there and still being advertised as 4-star hotels all over the internet. It's not the same logic.
Oh stop it. I go to four star hotels for daily housekeeping, room service and 8/10 twinks on reception. None of this exists in asylum hotels. They are shells of their former selves.
Stop the boats. And, if necessary keep people in tents not hotels. But stop with this four star hotel shtick.
Let’s make it cheaper for British firms to hire Indians than it is to hire Brits.
YES AND HO
Once again Labour missing a Peter Mannion figure to point out “no you idiot, that’s FUCKING MENTAL”
What are they thinking?
The thing is that although Peter Mandelson is probably rather busy it's not like you don't know his phone number and he's going to ignore a request for help..
"The UK will lower tariffs on Indian clothes, footwear and food products. Ministers said this would give consumers access to cheaper products and more choice."
Not exactly good news for British producers of clothes, footwear and food products.
I'd like to see what crossover food we import from India has with food produced here. I don't think we have a lot of production for Indian spices or exotic fruits. In terms of clothes it's actually going to be a price cut for consumers as we already import a huge amount of clothing from India, realistically it's Bangladesh and Pakistan that lose out because now Indian imports won't have tariffs so UK supply chains will move to exclude those countries rather than the very high end producers of clothes and shoes we have here that won't be competing for the same money as Indian made imports.
This is the worst part: " it was revealed British employers will not have to pay national insurance for Indian workers for three years, making it cheaper to employ Indians than anybody else." So it will be cheaper to employ Indian workers over British ones? This is a betrayal. No other government would put their own workers at a disadvantage like this.
Our government loathe us. They absolutely despise us.They learnt nothing from REFORM gains.
What clown thought it was a good idea to make it better and cheaper to import foreign workers rather than have local people doing jobs , Douglas Alexander involved guaranteed it would be a shit sandwich for locals. Heard him on TV stating it would not increase immigration as they would be classed as temporary workers and so not immigrants, they really think we are stupid.
ah the best part. They won't show up in immigration figures??! what a way to massage the numbers!
It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?
Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain
Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave
This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course
I think it might have been Barty who called out your 4* hotel lie last week, citing Copthorne who were undergoing difficult trading prior to COVID and latterly asylum. Whoever it was specified the requirements for a hotel to be 4* and explained that all the 4*edness had been stripped out of Copthorne locations for our asylum seeking friends.
Yet you are still allowed to post nonsense unchallenged. What next? Quoting Andrew Tate's X account as source material. Oh wait, apologies, that was Nigel Farage.
Good luck in going to the voters while saying “it WAS a four star hotel when we took it over and gave it to asylum seekers, but we closed the gym and they only get laundry done twice a week, and free heath care, and immediate dental work, and you’re paying for it all, and you can’t use the hotel. So it’s really only like a weird 3 star with a private hospital. That you are paying for. So that these men can wander around your town freaking you out. Vote for more of this!”
I don't think people pointing out that you are full of shit are trying to persuade voters of anything. They are just trying to point out to you that you are full of shit.
Why is it so difficult for you to grasp this simple point?
Person A: "asylum seekers are being held in four star hotels" Person B: "actually, no, when the governmemt leases them for asylum seekers, some of the facilities on which stars are awarded are shut down so technically it is no longer a four star hotel".
Why is it so difficult to see that while person B is not wrong on that point of detail, he is very much losing the argument.
You also seen to have completely missed my very simple point.
Nobody is trying to persuade Leon that asylum seekers are great.
They are engaged in the utterly futile endeavor of trying to get him to occasionally post something that isn't dishonest.
It may be dishonest but it does reflect what a lot of Reform voters hear and he shows how hard it is to argue against what they believe is correct because as he points out once you are explaining you've already lost..
It's £350mn all over again.
It is. The point back then was that a massive amount of money was being sent to the EU each week. The fact that £100m came back again was not the sort of detail to make people to whom £1m is an unimaginably large number think "oh, that's ok then." And similarly, if the point is made that, yes, 4-star hotels have been given over to asylum seekers, but because some facilities are unavailable, technically, they are not staying in four star conditions - well, the sort of person who considers a night in a premier inn as a big treat - and that's the vast majority of the population, by the way - does not then think that's fine and dandy and a wise investment of their taxes.
That's because it's literally impossible to justify...
Are you saying that, as a political salesman :
Total nonsense from this grifter. The NI rules only apply to Indian companies in India, who send temporary workers to the UK for Indian Businesses, and not Indians on Work Visas being hired by UK businesses.
Isn't easily transferable to votes on the ground? Sheesh!
It shows how all pervasive the immigration issue is in UK politics in that a positive story around a trade deal is derailed by the NI rates piece.
This is another demonstration, if we needed one, that this government is fundamentally judged through the prism of immigration above all else, and how it will be the faultline on which 2029 will be fought.
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?
Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain
Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave
This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course
I think it might have been Barty who called out your 4* hotel lie last week, citing Copthorne who were undergoing difficult trading prior to COVID and latterly asylum. Whoever it was specified the requirements for a hotel to be 4* and explained that all the 4*edness had been stripped out of Copthorne locations for our asylum seeking friends.
Yet you are still allowed to post nonsense unchallenged. What next? Quoting Andrew Tate's X account as source material. Oh wait, apologies, that was Nigel Farage.
Good luck in going to the voters while saying “it WAS a four star hotel when we took it over and gave it to asylum seekers, but we closed the gym and they only get laundry done twice a week, and free heath care, and immediate dental work, and you’re paying for it all, and you can’t use the hotel. So it’s really only like a weird 3 star with a private hospital. That you are paying for. So that these men can wander around your town freaking you out. Vote for more of this!”
I don't think people pointing out that you are full of shit are trying to persuade voters of anything. They are just trying to point out to you that you are full of shit.
Why is it so difficult for you to grasp this simple point?
Person A: "asylum seekers are being held in four star hotels" Person B: "actually, no, when the governmemt leases them for asylum seekers, some of the facilities on which stars are awarded are shut down so technically it is no longer a four star hotel".
Why is it so difficult to see that while person B is not wrong on that point of detail, he is very much losing the argument.
You also seen to have completely missed my very simple point.
Nobody is trying to persuade Leon that asylum seekers are great.
They are engaged in the utterly futile endeavor of trying to get him to occasionally post something that isn't dishonest.
It may be dishonest but it does reflect what a lot of Reform voters hear and he shows how hard it is to argue against what they believe is correct because as he points out once you are explaining you've already lost..
It's £350mn all over again.
It is. The point back then was that a massive amount of money was being sent to the EU each week. The fact that £100m came back again was not the sort of detail to make people to whom £1m is an unimaginably large number think "oh, that's ok then." And similarly, if the point is made that, yes, 4-star hotels have been given over to asylum seekers, but because some facilities are unavailable, technically, they are not staying in four star conditions - well, the sort of person who considers a night in a premier inn as a big treat - and that's the vast majority of the population, by the way - does not then think that's fine and dandy and a wise investment of their taxes.
Quite. Most of PB doesn't understand that a free night in a Hilton Doubletree, or a Sheraton Four Points, or a Marriot Delta - nice, plush-ish hotels with agreeable rooms and new swish bathrooms - would be for many many Britons a fairly marvelous thing. And even if the sauna and gym are shut and breakfast is limited in choice, if you get to do this for MONTHS and you don't pay, and you also get - perhaps for the first time in your life - fairly dedicated medical and dental care on site (and free food, cleaning and laundry) then that is AMAZING
And this is being given to illegal young male migrants (often hostile to Britain) and the poor Brits are paying for it, even as the hotels are brusquely closed to the Brits
It's a policy designed by Vladimir Putin to encourage revolution in the UK
That's because it's literally impossible to justify...
Are you saying that, as a political salesman :
Total nonsense from this grifter. The NI rules only apply to Indian companies in India, who send temporary workers to the UK for Indian Businesses, and not Indians on Work Visas being hired by UK businesses.
Isn't easily transferable to votes on the ground? Sheesh!
I'm saying that I've spent 15 years seeing how TCS and co work and oh boy this Government just given them the ability to be 25% cheaper than their competitors for on site (albeit it crap) technical resources.
To emphasis the scale of the issue even Rishi (whose wife will profit massively from this agreement) could see the problem and the seriousness of it..
I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.
TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
Why ? Are they of Pakistani heritage ? The war is India v Pakistan not India v Islam.
How did modern Pakistan and India come about?
Not really answered my question.
Will all Muslims naturally support Pakistan, they don’t in the case of Palestine.
Kashmir strikes me as more of a traditional irredentist conflict, like Donbass and Crimea, or Alsace-Lorraine, rather than a religious proxy war.
I used to work with a couple of Indian guys, proud British Hindus, who only ever got animated over this issue. I remember there was some spat in the Kargil Mountains. They weren’t happy. Their view was very much it’s our land not theirs. Their animosity was to Pakistan rather than Islam. My limited experience of people emotionally involved in this conflict mirrors your view.
However this was a while ago and the dynamic may have changed since then.
As far as I am concerned, Kashmir (give or take some Hindu-majority border areas) should really have gone to Pakistan in 1947. But that's just me.
I think it pretty certain that Kashmir would vote to join Pakistan, which is why India won't hold one.
Though opinion polling in the past has shown independence as a more popular option. Sadly not on offer.
In 2011: (2021 Census postponed across india)
Jammu Division was 68% Hindu, 30% Muslim Kashmir Division was 97% Muslim, 2% Hindu Kargil Division was 77% Muslim, 14% Buddhist, 7% Hindu Leh Division was 66% Buddhist, 17% Hindu, 14% Muslim
There is a poll commissioned by Chatham House in 2010 that has only 2% in J&K - ie on the Indian side of the LoC - favouring joining Pakistan.
It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?
Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain
Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave
This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course
I think it might have been Barty who called out your 4* hotel lie last week, citing Copthorne who were undergoing difficult trading prior to COVID and latterly asylum. Whoever it was specified the requirements for a hotel to be 4* and explained that all the 4*edness had been stripped out of Copthorne locations for our asylum seeking friends.
Yet you are still allowed to post nonsense unchallenged. What next? Quoting Andrew Tate's X account as source material. Oh wait, apologies, that was Nigel Farage.
Good luck in going to the voters while saying “it WAS a four star hotel when we took it over and gave it to asylum seekers, but we closed the gym and they only get laundry done twice a week, and free heath care, and immediate dental work, and you’re paying for it all, and you can’t use the hotel. So it’s really only like a weird 3 star with a private hospital. That you are paying for. So that these men can wander around your town freaking you out. Vote for more of this!”
I don't think people pointing out that you are full of shit are trying to persuade voters of anything. They are just trying to point out to you that you are full of shit.
Why is it so difficult for you to grasp this simple point?
Person A: "asylum seekers are being held in four star hotels" Person B: "actually, no, when the governmemt leases them for asylum seekers, some of the facilities on which stars are awarded are shut down so technically it is no longer a four star hotel".
Why is it so difficult to see that while person B is not wrong on that point of detail, he is very much losing the argument.
You also seen to have completely missed my very simple point.
Nobody is trying to persuade Leon that asylum seekers are great.
They are engaged in the utterly futile endeavor of trying to get him to occasionally post something that isn't dishonest.
It may be dishonest but it does reflect what a lot of Reform voters hear and he shows how hard it is to argue against what they believe is correct because as he points out once you are explaining you've already lost..
It's £350mn all over again.
It is. The point back then was that a massive amount of money was being sent to the EU each week. The fact that £100m came back again was not the sort of detail to make people to whom £1m is an unimaginably large number think "oh, that's ok then." And similarly, if the point is made that, yes, 4-star hotels have been given over to asylum seekers, but because some facilities are unavailable, technically, they are not staying in four star conditions - well, the sort of person who considers a night in a premier inn as a big treat - and that's the vast majority of the population, by the way - does not then think that's fine and dandy and a wise investment of their taxes.
Quite. Most of PB doesn't understand that a free night in a Hilton Doubletree, or a Sheraton Four Points, or a Marriot Delta - nice, plush-ish hotels with agreeable rooms and new swish bathrooms - would be for many many Britons a fairly marvelous thing. And even if the sauna and gym are shut and breakfast is limited in choice, if you get to do this for MONTHS and you don't pay, and you also get - perhaps for the first time in your life - fairly dedicated medical and dental care on site (and free food, cleaning and laundry) then that is AMAZING
And this is being given to illegal young male migrants (often hostile to Britain) and the poor Brits are paying for it, even as the hotels are brusquely closed to the Brits
It's a policy designed by Vladimir Putin to encourage revolution in the UK
Strange that you are still going on about hotels - the rest of us have moved on to jobs being taken by Indians...
He's been going for quite a few years, very good videos and presentation.
And he actually replies to you if you ask an intelligent question. He replied to me on Twitter recently, despite getting thousands of comments on his videos,
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
I'm saying that I've spent 15 years seeing how TCS and co work and oh boy this Government just given them the ability to be 25% cheaper than their competitors for on site (albeit it crap) technical resources.
To emphasis the scale of the issue even Rishi (whose wife will profit massively from this agreement) could see the problem and the seriousness of it..
Given the government's political acumen, maybe the plan is actually to use these firms in a massive way in the public sector. Making their own client vote redundant would be the next step in their 'zero seats' strategy.
I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.
TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
Why ? Are they of Pakistani heritage ? The war is India v Pakistan not India v Islam.
How did modern Pakistan and India come about?
Not really answered my question.
Will all Muslims naturally support Pakistan, they don’t in the case of Palestine.
Kashmir strikes me as more of a traditional irredentist conflict, like Donbass and Crimea, or Alsace-Lorraine, rather than a religious proxy war.
I used to work with a couple of Indian guys, proud British Hindus, who only ever got animated over this issue. I remember there was some spat in the Kargil Mountains. They weren’t happy. Their view was very much it’s our land not theirs. Their animosity was to Pakistan rather than Islam. My limited experience of people emotionally involved in this conflict mirrors your view.
However this was a while ago and the dynamic may have changed since then.
As far as I am concerned, Kashmir (give or take some Hindu-majority border areas) should really have gone to Pakistan in 1947. But that's just me.
I think it pretty certain that Kashmir would vote to join Pakistan, which is why India won't hold one.
Though opinion polling in the past has shown independence as a more popular option. Sadly not on offer.
In 2011: (2021 Census postponed across india)
Jammu Division was 68% Hindu, 30% Muslim Kashmir Division was 97% Muslim, 2% Hindu Kargil Division was 77% Muslim, 14% Buddhist, 7% Hindu Leh Division was 66% Buddhist, 17% Hindu, 14% Muslim
There is a poll commissioned by Chatham House in 2010 that has only 2% in J&K - ie on the Indian side of the LoC - favouring joining Pakistan.
But that was 15 years ago. Since then, J & K has been divided into two. The new J & K (comprising Jammu and Kashmir Divisions), and Ladakh (Kargil and Leh Divisions).
It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?
Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain
Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave
This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course
I think it might have been Barty who called out your 4* hotel lie last week, citing Copthorne who were undergoing difficult trading prior to COVID and latterly asylum. Whoever it was specified the requirements for a hotel to be 4* and explained that all the 4*edness had been stripped out of Copthorne locations for our asylum seeking friends.
Yet you are still allowed to post nonsense unchallenged. What next? Quoting Andrew Tate's X account as source material. Oh wait, apologies, that was Nigel Farage.
Good luck in going to the voters while saying “it WAS a four star hotel when we took it over and gave it to asylum seekers, but we closed the gym and they only get laundry done twice a week, and free heath care, and immediate dental work, and you’re paying for it all, and you can’t use the hotel. So it’s really only like a weird 3 star with a private hospital. That you are paying for. So that these men can wander around your town freaking you out. Vote for more of this!”
I don't think people pointing out that you are full of shit are trying to persuade voters of anything. They are just trying to point out to you that you are full of shit.
Why is it so difficult for you to grasp this simple point?
Person A: "asylum seekers are being held in four star hotels" Person B: "actually, no, when the governmemt leases them for asylum seekers, some of the facilities on which stars are awarded are shut down so technically it is no longer a four star hotel".
Why is it so difficult to see that while person B is not wrong on that point of detail, he is very much losing the argument.
You also seen to have completely missed my very simple point.
Nobody is trying to persuade Leon that asylum seekers are great.
They are engaged in the utterly futile endeavor of trying to get him to occasionally post something that isn't dishonest.
It may be dishonest but it does reflect what a lot of Reform voters hear and he shows how hard it is to argue against what they believe is correct because as he points out once you are explaining you've already lost..
It's £350mn all over again.
It is. The point back then was that a massive amount of money was being sent to the EU each week. The fact that £100m came back again was not the sort of detail to make people to whom £1m is an unimaginably large number think "oh, that's ok then." And similarly, if the point is made that, yes, 4-star hotels have been given over to asylum seekers, but because some facilities are unavailable, technically, they are not staying in four star conditions - well, the sort of person who considers a night in a premier inn as a big treat - and that's the vast majority of the population, by the way - does not then think that's fine and dandy and a wise investment of their taxes.
Quite. Most of PB doesn't understand that a free night in a Hilton Doubletree, or a Sheraton Four Points, or a Marriot Delta - nice, plush-ish hotels with agreeable rooms and new swish bathrooms - would be for many many Britons a fairly marvelous thing. And even if the sauna and gym are shut and breakfast is limited in choice, if you get to do this for MONTHS and you don't pay, and you also get - perhaps for the first time in your life - fairly dedicated medical and dental care on site (and free food, cleaning and laundry) then that is AMAZING
And this is being given to illegal young male migrants (often hostile to Britain) and the poor Brits are paying for it, even as the hotels are brusquely closed to the Brits
It's a policy designed by Vladimir Putin to encourage revolution in the UK
Strange that you are still going on about hotels - the rest of us have moved on to jobs being taken by Indians...
Because the two issues overlap, horrifically, for Labour
In both there is the profound sense - highly justified - that the British government and Establishment favours the rights and prosperity of foreigners over Britons. Illegal migrants get 4 star hotels (paid for by Brits), Indian workers get lower taxes (even as Brits get higher taxes) IN BRITAIN
It is the same mindset at work. A perverse, grotesque elephantiasis of Wokeism whereby everything must be better for foreigners and worse for Brits to show how virtuous Brits are, but these are rich upper middle class Brits making these "virtuous" choices, and they won't ever suffer the consequences like the average Briton
These fools are simply but cluelessly buying the ammo for potential civil strife. It is madness. Hopefully a Reform government will step in and prevent it going that far
I'm saying that I've spent 15 years seeing how TCS and co work and oh boy this Government just given them the ability to be 25% cheaper than their competitors for on site (albeit it crap) technical resources.
To emphasis the scale of the issue even Rishi (whose wife will profit massively from this agreement) could see the problem and the seriousness of it..
Given the government's political acumen, maybe the plan is actually to use these firms in a massive way in the public sector. Making their own client vote redundant would be the next step in their 'zero seats' strategy.
if their aim is to go backwards and have their IT systems hacked ala Marks and Spencers than that's the approach to take.
On the other hand Mphasis and others where working on DWP projects 11 years ago so I doubt much has really changed.
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
Alternative view:
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 1m I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
or/
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 5h The Government making it cheaper for British companies to employ foreign workers would be politically questionable at the best of times. In the current political context it's stark staring lunacy.
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
Alternative view:
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 1m I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
or/
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 5h The Government making it cheaper for British companies to employ foreign workers would be politically questionable at the best of times. In the current political context it's stark staring lunacy.
Lilico sadly lost it some time ago. I'd go with Hodges
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
That new Indian worker that you are training up to do you job....
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
That new Indian worker that you are training up to do you job....
And someone who knows the finances in detail has just told me it's cost TCS's costs by a minimum of 10%....
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
Alternative view:
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 1m I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
I think there are some reasons why it might not be as bad as WFP
It's much more complicated.
It's only happened because of Brexit. It's precisely the kind of deal the Dan Hannans of the world were so excited about (and respect to him for being so consistent).
It's not the withdrawal of a freebie. It doesn't hit the entitlement soft spot, nor the "betrayal" factor of a party doing something entirely out of line with expectations.
It affects working age people, not pensioners. They have less time to spend on Facebook, and it's a much better cohort for Labour.
It has just the whiff of racism about it. Piling in on "Indian migrants" parcels you right up with Reform ultras, which isn't a position most people want to be in. Just look at how divided the country is on identity/immigration, as detailed in the header.
Meanwhile, I'm still trying to find out how to swap my avatar.
Click on your own name when on Vanilla, then there is a little icon in the top right which gives a drop down menu that allows you to update your profile and settings.
I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.
TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
Why ? Are they of Pakistani heritage ? The war is India v Pakistan not India v Islam.
How did modern Pakistan and India come about?
Not really answered my question.
Will all Muslims naturally support Pakistan, they don’t in the case of Palestine.
Kashmir strikes me as more of a traditional irredentist conflict, like Donbass and Crimea, or Alsace-Lorraine, rather than a religious proxy war.
I used to work with a couple of Indian guys, proud British Hindus, who only ever got animated over this issue. I remember there was some spat in the Kargil Mountains. They weren’t happy. Their view was very much it’s our land not theirs. Their animosity was to Pakistan rather than Islam. My limited experience of people emotionally involved in this conflict mirrors your view.
However this was a while ago and the dynamic may have changed since then.
As far as I am concerned, Kashmir (give or take some Hindu-majority border areas) should really have gone to Pakistan in 1947. But that's just me.
I think it pretty certain that Kashmir would vote to join Pakistan, which is why India won't hold one.
Though opinion polling in the past has shown independence as a more popular option. Sadly not on offer.
In 2011: (2021 Census postponed across india)
Jammu Division was 68% Hindu, 30% Muslim Kashmir Division was 97% Muslim, 2% Hindu Kargil Division was 77% Muslim, 14% Buddhist, 7% Hindu Leh Division was 66% Buddhist, 17% Hindu, 14% Muslim
There is a poll commissioned by Chatham House in 2010 that has only 2% in J&K - ie on the Indian side of the LoC - favouring joining Pakistan.
But that was 15 years ago. Since then, J & K has been divided into two. The new J & K (comprising Jammu and Kashmir Divisions), and Ladakh (Kargil and Leh Divisions).
I haven't found any more recent polling including independence as an option. But in that poll the highest % in favour of joining Pakistan was 7% in Badgam, Kashmir Valley Division.
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
Alternative view:
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 1m I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
I think there are some reasons why it might not be as bad as WFP
It's much more complicated.
It's only happened because of Brexit. It's precisely the kind of deal the Dan Hannans of the world were so excited about (and respect to him for being so consistent).
It's not the withdrawal of a freebie. It doesn't hit the entitlement soft spot, nor the "betrayal" factor of a party doing something entirely out of line with expectations.
It affects working age people, not pensioners. They have less time to spend on Facebook, and it's a much better cohort for Labour.
It has just the whiff of racism about it. Piling in on "Indian migrants" parcels you right up with Reform ultras, which isn't a position most people want to be in. Just look at how divided the country is on identity/immigration, as detailed in the header.
4 - a lot of these people are about to have a lot of time to spend on Facebook and a very simply story to explain. TCS were suddenly cheaper and stole their jobs (think I'm kidding that figure just came from the UK head of one of TCS's Indian competitors)...
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
That new Indian worker that you are training up to do you job....
Even better.
WTF is Starmer on?
'My Dad was working class, he was a tookmaker, we knew what struggle was, and trying to make ends meet' etc etc
Meanwhile, I'm still trying to find out how to swap my avatar.
Click on your own name when on Vanilla, then there is a little icon in the top right which gives a drop down menu that allows you to update your profile and settings.
Every so often I think my avatar is out of date and I should replace it then some announcement like today's Indian deal comes along and I think how can you be so stupid....
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
Alternative view:
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 1m I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
or/
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 5h The Government making it cheaper for British companies to employ foreign workers would be politically questionable at the best of times. In the current political context it's stark staring lunacy.
Lilico sadly lost it some time ago. I'd go with Hodges
Lilico is the rationalist mathematical game theory guy a lot of the time.
And nothing wrong with that.
But sometimes the raw, visceral emotional side of politics comes screaming at the ballot box and giving tens of thousands of Indians some kind of tax exemption and allowing their employers to avoid NI is a fucking political disastr,
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
Alternative view:
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 1m I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
or/
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 5h The Government making it cheaper for British companies to employ foreign workers would be politically questionable at the best of times. In the current political context it's stark staring lunacy.
Lilico sadly lost it some time ago. I'd go with Hodges
Lilico is the rationalist mathematical game theory guy a lot of the time.
And nothing wrong with that.
But sometimes the raw, visceral emotional side of politics comes screaming at the ballot box and giving tens of thousands of Indians some kind of tax exemption and allowing their employers to avoid NI is a fucking political disastr,
I wouldn't be so bad if those Indian firms weren't known for gaming the previous system....
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
Alternative view:
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 1m I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
or/
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 5h The Government making it cheaper for British companies to employ foreign workers would be politically questionable at the best of times. In the current political context it's stark staring lunacy.
Lilico sadly lost it some time ago. I'd go with Hodges
Lilico is the rationalist mathematical game theory guy a lot of the time.
And nothing wrong with that.
But sometimes the raw, visceral emotional side of politics comes screaming at the ballot box and giving tens of thousands of Indians some kind of tax exemption and allowing their employers to avoid NI is a fucking political disastr,
Yes, exactly. I suspect he is highly intelligent - and autistic. So logically this all makes sense to him, but the emotionality and perceptions escape him entirely. he has no Theory of Mind, he cannot see how this will be perceived, and is already being perceived by most Brits. Two Tier Taxes, anti-British, massive immigration
Farage is the opposite of autistic (I don't know if there is a word for this). He has great Theory of Mind. He senses the public mood with preternatural grace and skill and is able to exploit it to the full, while appearing entirely natural (even though I am sure it is an act). It is a massive political asset. Blair had it too
In the end these people are often exposed as fakers, but that is also, often, at the end of long, successful political careers
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
The other countries don't have 100,000 IT workers in the UK undercutting and replacing skilled UK IT workers
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
The real Brexit is one of autarky. We don't want foreigners and their wares.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
The real Brexit is one of autarky. We don't want foreigners and their wares.
The EU is hugely protectionist. When members, we were forced to perpetuate that. Now we have the choice, at least. I hope free trade prevails. But either way, it is better in the hands of the people.
Unless you consider White Europe to be the world, of course.
Even more significant is the Reform figure. If Reform are now joint top in Wales in a Westminster poll then given Labour have never failed to win most votes and seats in Wales at a UK general election since universal suffrage for the moment Farage can almost start measuring the drapes in No 10
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
The Indian deal? I bet most haven't heard of it, nor will do.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
The real Brexit is one of autarky. We don't want foreigners and their wares.
The EU is hugely protectionist. When members, we were forced to perpetuate that. Now we have the choice, at least. I hope free trade prevails. But either way, it is better in the hands of the people.
Unless you consider White Europe to be the world, of course.
While the EU is far from perfect (and I voted Brexit and don't regret my vote), I've never been particularly convinced by this argument.
The sum total of tariffs collected by the EU is EUR28bn/year. That's - in the general scheme of things - nothing.
They've also been pretty good at agreeing free trade with some of the world's poorest countries.
Now, sure, do they have a whole bunch of regulations about what's standard? Yes. But then, so does the US, China, and Japan.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
The Indian deal? I bet most haven't heard of it, nor will do.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
The real Brexit is one of autarky. We don't want foreigners and their wares.
The EU is hugely protectionist. When members, we were forced to perpetuate that. Now we have the choice, at least. I hope free trade prevails. But either way, it is better in the hands of the people.
Unless you consider White Europe to be the world, of course.
While the EU is far from perfect (and I voted Brexit and don't regret my vote), I've never been particularly convinced by this argument.
The sum total of tariffs collected by the EU is EUR28bn/year. That's - in the general scheme of things - nothing.
They've also been pretty good at agreeing free trade with some of the world's poorest countries.
Now, sure, do they have a whole bunch of regulations about what's standard? Yes. But then, so does the US, China, and Japan.
You voted for Brexit? I miserably failed to cotton on to that over the last 9 years. 😊 I voted Remain after hesitating for several seconds in the polling booth.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
The real Brexit is one of autarky. We don't want foreigners and their wares.
The EU is hugely protectionist. When members, we were forced to perpetuate that. Now we have the choice, at least. I hope free trade prevails. But either way, it is better in the hands of the people.
Unless you consider White Europe to be the world, of course.
While the EU is far from perfect (and I voted Brexit and don't regret my vote), I've never been particularly convinced by this argument.
The sum total of tariffs collected by the EU is EUR28bn/year. That's - in the general scheme of things - nothing.
They've also been pretty good at agreeing free trade with some of the world's poorest countries.
Now, sure, do they have a whole bunch of regulations about what's standard? Yes. But then, so does the US, China, and Japan.
You voted for Brexit? I miserably failed to cotton on to that over the last 9 years. 😊 I voted Remain after hesitating for several seconds in the polling booth.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
This deal could have been a positive announcement for Starmer's Labour Government today, but it was holed below the water line because the No10 Comms team's political radar and messaging is absolutely dire. Someone should have spotted the terrible optics of this mega tax break for temporary workers from India and either ditched it because of the current political landscape in the UK, or got out ahead of it and managed the announcement in such a way that the positive aspects of the deal far outweighed this tax break. But they didn't and the headlines in the media today were totally predictable as a result.
But now it just adds to the growing concensus following the Chagos deal and current briefings about future deals with the EU that Keir Starmer's Government are weak when it comes to standing up for the UK's interests during tough International/Diplomatic negotiations.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
This deal could have been a positive announcement for Starmer's Labour Government today, but it was holed below the water line because the No10 Comms team's political radar and messaging is absolutely dire. Someone should have spotted the terrible optics of this mega tax break for temporary workers from India and either ditched it because of the current political landscape in the UK, or got out ahead of it and managed the announcement in such a way that the positive aspects of the deal far outweighed this tax break. But they didn't and the headlines in the media today were totally predictable as a result.
But now it just adds to the growing concensus following the Chagos deal and current briefings about future deals with the EU that Keir Starmer's Government are weak when it comes to standing up for the UK's interests during tough International/Diplomatic negotiations.
Meanwhile...
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
This perfectly encapsulates the problem with Keir Starmer. A couple of weeks ago he was proudly announcing the end of globalisation. This week he's proudly announcing tax cuts that will make it easier for Indian workers to take British jobs. It's utterly irrational politics."
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
The real Brexit is one of autarky. We don't want foreigners and their wares.
The EU is hugely protectionist. When members, we were forced to perpetuate that. Now we have the choice, at least. I hope free trade prevails. But either way, it is better in the hands of the people.
Unless you consider White Europe to be the world, of course.
While the EU is far from perfect (and I voted Brexit and don't regret my vote), I've never been particularly convinced by this argument.
The sum total of tariffs collected by the EU is EUR28bn/year. That's - in the general scheme of things - nothing.
They've also been pretty good at agreeing free trade with some of the world's poorest countries.
Now, sure, do they have a whole bunch of regulations about what's standard? Yes. But then, so does the US, China, and Japan.
Sums up today's politics, though.
There's more information available to anyone with a bit of patience and curiosity than at any time in history. And most people understand what's going on in the world by way of a handful of the political slogans of the day.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
This deal could have been a positive announcement for Starmer's Labour Government today, but it was holed below the water line because the No10 Comms team's political radar and messaging is absolutely dire. Someone should have spotted the terrible optics of this mega tax break for temporary workers from India and either ditched it because of the current political landscape in the UK, or got out ahead of it and managed the announcement in such a way that the positive aspects of the deal far outweighed this tax break. But they didn't and the headlines in the media today were totally predictable as a result.
But now it just adds to the growing concensus following the Chagos deal and current briefings about future deals with the EU that Keir Starmer's Government are weak when it comes to standing up for the UK's interests during tough International/Diplomatic negotiations.
Meanwhile...
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
I stand by my point that the No10 Comms team's political messaging has been absolutely dire since July last year, in fact throw in their neighbour next door's Comms team in No11 to make it the perfect storm that will see this new intake of labour MPs becoming by far the largest ever group of one term MPs...
(((Dan Hodges)))@DPJHodges The Government making it cheaper for British companies to employ foreign workers would be politically questionable at the best of times. In the current political context it's stark staring lunacy.
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
Alternative view:
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 1m I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
5h The Government making it cheaper for British companies to employ foreign workers would be politically questionable at the best of times. In the current political context it's stark staring lunacy.
Both propositions are true
In any event, it is *relatively* cheaper for Indian firms if they no longer have to pay UK NI vs the prior state. Even if they are still paying taxes in India it’s still a win for them
On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA
However it’s important to note
1. This is the daily mail
And
2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold
'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".
The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'
So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
Yes indeed
My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right
Two Tier Taxes? Really????
It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
Nige inches closer to Number 10
What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
maybe they think going "further and faster" for growth will be worth it. If they are able to get enough growth. Its a terrible miscalculation.
it's winter fuel on stilts - Nigel is having on the champers tonight.
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
Alternative view:
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 1m I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
or/
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 5h The Government making it cheaper for British companies to employ foreign workers would be politically questionable at the best of times. In the current political context it's stark staring lunacy.
Lilico sadly lost it some time ago. I'd go with Hodges
Lilico is the rationalist mathematical game theory guy a lot of the time.
And nothing wrong with that.
But sometimes the raw, visceral emotional side of politics comes screaming at the ballot box and giving tens of thousands of Indians some kind of tax exemption and allowing their employers to avoid NI is a fucking political disastr,
Yes, exactly. I suspect he is highly intelligent - and autistic. So logically this all makes sense to him, but the emotionality and perceptions escape him entirely. he has no Theory of Mind, he cannot see how this will be perceived, and is already being perceived by most Brits. Two Tier Taxes, anti-British, massive immigration
Farage is the opposite of autistic (I don't know if there is a word for this). He has great Theory of Mind. He senses the public mood with preternatural grace and skill and is able to exploit it to the full, while appearing entirely natural (even though I am sure it is an act). It is a massive political asset. Blair had it too
In the end these people are often exposed as fakers, but that is also, often, at the end of long, successful political careers
“Autistic” is a much overused word. Especially by you.
It’s like thick rich people claiming they are dyslexic.
Lilico is an academic economist. That makes him bloodless and rational, not autistic, or even “on the spectrum”.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
The real Brexit is one of autarky. We don't want foreigners and their wares.
The EU is hugely protectionist. When members, we were forced to perpetuate that. Now we have the choice, at least. I hope free trade prevails. But either way, it is better in the hands of the people.
Unless you consider White Europe to be the world, of course.
While the EU is far from perfect (and I voted Brexit and don't regret my vote), I've never been particularly convinced by this argument.
The sum total of tariffs collected by the EU is EUR28bn/year. That's - in the general scheme of things - nothing.
They've also been pretty good at agreeing free trade with some of the world's poorest countries.
Now, sure, do they have a whole bunch of regulations about what's standard? Yes. But then, so does the US, China, and Japan.
Shame that they actively prevent west Africa adding value to their cocoa instead of just selling the raw product
I always thought my prediction that people would oppose this deal because Labour did it would come true but not this quickly.
This site has really fallen down a rabbit hole this evening thanks to one user. So I will be taking a break indefinitely.
There are a couple of overtly racist posters, which is a shame and another poster, who has under a variety of identities throughout the twenty year life of this site regularly dragged debate into the gutter. Such behaviour clearly ruins the site for a number of other readers and posters. C'est la vie.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
The other countries don't have 100,000 IT workers in the UK undercutting and replacing skilled UK IT workers
Have you ever hired an Indian IT worker? Russians are very good but they keep leaving the back door open.
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Just wait till the public realize how many countries the UK has the same deal with !
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
The real Brexit is one of autarky. We don't want foreigners and their wares.
Real Brexit is like the story of Eyam... But with a twist.
In the story, Eyam bravely cut itself off from the plague, and only traded with others by leaving money at the edge of the village in exchange for goods.
In the Brexit version, what we really want is others to leave goods and money at our borders for us to pick up.
It's natural to desire getting something for nothing. Outside a few strange niches, it doesn't happen.
Comments
Jammu Division was 68% Hindu, 30% Muslim
Kashmir Division was 97% Muslim, 2% Hindu
Kargil Division was 77% Muslim, 14% Buddhist, 7% Hindu
Leh Division was 66% Buddhist, 17% Hindu, 14% Muslim
With that…
I'm glad I've mainly been out this evening
JFYI
https://x.com/wallstengine/status/1919875242605805579?s=61
https://x.com/jonathanbrash/status/1919850979140264042
Stop the boats. And, if necessary keep people in tents not hotels. But stop with this four star hotel shtick.
I SO hope Labour campaigns on these vital distinctions. They will romp home to 9% of the vote
YES AND HO
Once again Labour missing a Peter Mannion figure to point out “no you idiot, that’s FUCKING MENTAL”
What are they thinking?
https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/amritsar-massacre/
Time is likely to be on the Chinese side perhaps, as they do not have so much public opinion to which they need to answer.
OTOH in his first term some of Trump's tariffs were in place for a couple of years until the end of his term.
It's fatal. C'est tout
They won't show up in immigration figures??! what a way to massage the numbers!
And similarly, if the point is made that, yes, 4-star hotels have been given over to asylum seekers, but because some facilities are unavailable, technically, they are not staying in four star conditions - well, the sort of person who considers a night in a premier inn as a big treat - and that's the vast majority of the population, by the way - does not then think that's fine and dandy and a wise investment of their taxes.
This is another demonstration, if we needed one, that this government is fundamentally judged through the prism of immigration above all else, and how it will be the faultline on which 2029 will be fought.
And this is being given to illegal young male migrants (often hostile to Britain) and the poor Brits are paying for it, even as the hotels are brusquely closed to the Brits
It's a policy designed by Vladimir Putin to encourage revolution in the UK
I'm saying that I've spent 15 years seeing how TCS and co work and oh boy this Government just given them the ability to be 25% cheaper than their competitors for on site (albeit it crap) technical resources.
To emphasis the scale of the issue even Rishi (whose wife will profit massively from this agreement) could see the problem and the seriousness of it..
https://www.youtube.com/@MentourPilot
(https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7vn24j3v2jo)
I mean, can a aide come up with anything better than: 'you know a year or so ago they asked you to pay more NI, and then Lab came in and asked your boss to pay more NI, well, there's excellent news - the new Indian worker in the next cubicle doesn't have to pay.'??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir_(union_territory)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladakh
Certainly bloody will be unless Starmer gets a grip and stops making shit decision after shit decision.
In both there is the profound sense - highly justified - that the British government and Establishment favours the rights and prosperity of foreigners over Britons. Illegal migrants get 4 star hotels (paid for by Brits), Indian workers get lower taxes (even as Brits get higher taxes) IN BRITAIN
It is the same mindset at work. A perverse, grotesque elephantiasis of Wokeism whereby everything must be better for foreigners and worse for Brits to show how virtuous Brits are, but these are rich upper middle class Brits making these "virtuous" choices, and they won't ever suffer the consequences like the average Briton
These fools are simply but cluelessly buying the ammo for potential civil strife. It is madness. Hopefully a Reform government will step in and prevent it going that far
On the other hand Mphasis and others where working on DWP projects 11 years ago so I doubt much has really changed.
Andrew Lilico
@andrew_lilico
·
1m
I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
or/
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
5h
The Government making it cheaper for British companies to employ foreign workers would be politically questionable at the best of times. In the current political context it's stark staring lunacy.
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
3h
Like I said at the weekend. Labour may as well just give him the keys to No.10 now. Insanity.
WTF is Starmer on?
'My Dad was working class, he was a tookmaker, we knew what struggle was, and trying to make ends meet' etc etc
Lilico is the rationalist mathematical game theory guy a lot of the time.
And nothing wrong with that.
But sometimes the raw, visceral emotional side of politics comes screaming at the ballot box and giving tens of thousands of Indians some kind of tax exemption and allowing their employers to avoid NI is a fucking political disastr,
It must have been extraordinarily difficult to come up with something that would send their working class voters more into the arms of Farage than the Winter Fuel Cut but... bloody hell... they've found something.
Farage is the opposite of autistic (I don't know if there is a word for this). He has great Theory of Mind. He senses the public mood with preternatural grace and skill and is able to exploit it to the full, while appearing entirely natural (even though I am sure it is an act). It is a massive political asset. Blair had it too
In the end these people are often exposed as fakers, but that is also, often, at the end of long, successful political careers
I always thought my prediction that people would oppose this deal because Labour did it would come true but not this quickly.
This site has really fallen down a rabbit hole this evening thanks to one user. So I will be taking a break indefinitely.
We seem to live in an age where the public seem to be in a constant state of anger about something . It’s not healthy .
as I pointed out Rishi's wife's Family will make £x0m from it (minimum) and Rishi could see how bad it was for the UK.
Ok, bedtime now.
Unless you consider White Europe to be the world, of course.
It should enter the glossary. Along with "rich as creases". And "lagershed" of course.
The sum total of tariffs collected by the EU is EUR28bn/year. That's - in the general scheme of things - nothing.
They've also been pretty good at agreeing free trade with some of the world's poorest countries.
Now, sure, do they have a whole bunch of regulations about what's standard? Yes. But then, so does the US, China, and Japan.
But now it just adds to the growing concensus following the Chagos deal and current briefings about future deals with the EU that Keir Starmer's Government are weak when it comes to standing up for the UK's interests during tough International/Diplomatic negotiations.
Andrew Lilico
@andrew_lilico
I think there are going to be quite a few quite embarrassed politicians when they come to understand better the provisions of the India-UK FTA that they've condemned before mastering the details.
https://x.com/andrew_lilico/status/1919884351463936489
The incoming chancellor’s coalition compromises leave a lot of space for the AfD.
By Hans Kundnani"
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2025/04/friedrich-merz-has-emboldened-germanys-far-right
This perfectly encapsulates the problem with Keir Starmer. A couple of weeks ago he was proudly announcing the end of globalisation. This week he's proudly announcing tax cuts that will make it easier for Indian workers to take British jobs. It's utterly irrational politics."
https://www.twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1919809033432711242
There's more information available to anyone with a bit of patience and curiosity than at any time in history. And most people understand what's going on in the world by way of a handful of the political slogans of the day.
(((Dan Hodges)))@DPJHodges
The Government making it cheaper for British companies to employ foreign workers would be politically questionable at the best of times. In the current political context it's stark staring lunacy.
https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1919807534992404573
It's getting to be a bit of a habit.
HMS PoW will be there soon too.
In any event, it is *relatively* cheaper for Indian firms if they no longer have to pay UK NI vs the prior state. Even if they are still paying taxes in India it’s still a win for them
It’s like thick rich people claiming they are dyslexic.
Lilico is an academic economist. That makes him bloodless and rational, not autistic, or even “on the spectrum”.
In the story, Eyam bravely cut itself off from the plague, and only traded with others by leaving money at the edge of the village in exchange for goods.
In the Brexit version, what we really want is others to leave goods and money at our borders for us to pick up.
It's natural to desire getting something for nothing. Outside a few strange niches, it doesn't happen.