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Winning the argument vs the other lot being useless – politicalbetting.com

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  • isamisam Posts: 41,477
    edited May 6
    From the Independent’s ‘View from Westminster’ email

    Keir wins India trade deal – and that is a bad thing?

    The prime minister has secured a trade deal with India that Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak tried to deliver but could not. So the Conservatives are attacking it with extra brio.

    Kemi Badenoch has denounced the national insurance contributions exemption for temporary workers as “two-tier taxes from two-tier Keir”, saying that she refused to agree to it when she was trade secretary.

    As far as I can tell, that part of the deal is a normal double-taxation agreement, so that Indians working here temporarily but paying social security contributions in India would not be charged twice, with the same applying in reverse to British temporary workers in India.

    But the terms will be exploited ruthlessly by the Tories and Reform, given the salience of immigration at the moment. Keir Starmer’s triumph has been muffled by the failure to prepare the ground for the tricky details.

    Written by John Rentoul
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,474
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Does anybody here actually know whether the new ‘online triage’ offered/forced on patients at my local GP count toward the ‘millions of extra appointments’ Labour are talking about securing? @foxy ?

    I have no idea.

    The numbers of GP appointments both face to face and online used to be published on the DoH website, so should be fairly easy to analyse.
    I had it in mind that an online appointment was a communication with the doctor in real time, ie they’re on the other end of a chat or Skype/teams call. What I got was a series of preset multiple choice questions on the gov.uk website, but that might just be what they mean by triage rather than an online appointment
    Yes, I don't think that sort of triage would count as an appointment.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,835
    Could doing a lot of heavy lifting in this post.

    EXCLUSIVE

    Rupert Lowe could be charged over alleged threats towards Reform chair Zia Yusuf after the Met passed the case to the CPS

    Lowe denies the allegations, says it is “standard practice” for sensitive cases and “looks forward to clearing my name”


    https://x.com/DominicPenna/status/1919839297168969878
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad

    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,455

    Who was the Supreme Allied Commander who oversaw D day and victory in Europe?

    A. General Dwight Eisenhower
    B. Sir Winston Churchill
    C. Captain George Mainwaring
    D. General Bernard Montgomery

    Popular and actual answers to follow.

    All of the above.

    A) Military commander
    B Politician who insisted on more divisions.
    C) Organised the lynch pin of rear area defence
    D) Kept Eisenhower on his toes by wanting his job so obviously.
    The episode of Dad's Army on right now is where Godfrey's courage is called into question.

    Amid the pratfalling and character comedy, there could be serious intent, too. This 1969 story, co-writer Jimmy Perry’s favourite, is a potent example.

    Mainwaring is appalled to learn that Private Godfrey was a “conchie” in the First World War, and the captain’s wrath merely inspires the other men to shun him. The way in which Godfrey is restored in his friends’ eyes — putting actor Arnold Ridley, himself an unrecognised war hero, in the spotlight — is restrained and poignant.

    https://www.radiotimes.com/programme/b-bdhb8z/dads-army-season-3/?episode=b-byk4ru
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,835
    edited May 6
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,897

    Could doing a lot of heavy lifting in this post.

    EXCLUSIVE

    Rupert Lowe could be charged over alleged threats towards Reform chair Zia Yusuf after the Met passed the case to the CPS

    Lowe denies the allegations, says it is “standard practice” for sensitive cases and “looks forward to clearing my name”


    https://x.com/DominicPenna/status/1919839297168969878

    He tried to barrage the farage.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919
    isam said:

    Does anybody here actually know whether the new ‘online triage’ offered/forced on patients at my local GP count toward the ‘millions of extra appointments’ Labour are talking about securing? @foxy ?

    Interesting you mention it, I can only get phone appointments for my GP via the rNHS app now. I used to be able to get physical appointments, I have a painful thumb base. Probably arthritic. Wanted a physical appointment. Got a phone one.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,888

    isam said:

    From the Independent’s ‘View from Westminster’ email

    Keir wins India trade deal – and that is a bad thing?

    The prime minister has secured a trade deal with India that Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak tried to deliver but could not. So the Conservatives are attacking it with extra brio.

    Kemi Badenoch has denounced the national insurance contributions exemption for temporary workers as “two-tier taxes from two-tier Keir”, saying that she refused to agree to it when she was trade secretary.

    As far as I can tell, that part of the deal is a normal double-taxation agreement, so that Indians working here temporarily but paying social security contributions in India would not be charged twice, with the same applying in reverse to British temporary workers in India.

    But the terms will be exploited ruthlessly by the Tories and Reform, given the salience of immigration at the moment. Keir Starmer’s triumph has been muffled by the failure to prepare the ground for the tricky details.

    Written by John Rentoul

    That's the dilemma.

    It's probably a pretty reasonable arrangement. We're talking about contractors coming over from India for fixed terms, and still paying the Indian equivalent of NI in India. Plus (I think) the NHS surcharge while they're here, and they're not building up any entitlement to a UK pension.

    But it took me three lines to summarise that, which is always less exciting than "Undercutting our workers" sounds. Which, like certain other memes here, is at best an incomplete summary. At worst, it's technically true but totally dishonest.

    And if the threshold for a government is to only do things that can't be mashed into a dishonest summary, we might as well all give up now.
    NARRATOR: Hardly anyone pays the equivalent of Income Tax in India.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,430
    eek said:

    OK

    WWII trivia question - what was the greatest reduction in rank, in the British Army?

    Lieutenant-General Arthur Percival for surrendering Singapore
    Nope - Percival retained his rank
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,439
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Tories campaigning for Refuk again. Bizarre party political harikiri.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,730

    Who was the Supreme Allied Commander who oversaw D day and victory in Europe?

    A. General Dwight Eisenhower
    B. Sir Winston Churchill
    C. Captain George Mainwaring
    D. General Bernard Montgomery

    Popular and actual answers to follow.

    All of the above.

    A) Military commander
    B Politician who insisted on more divisions.
    C) Organised the lynch pin of rear area defence
    D) Kept Eisenhower on his toes by wanting his job so obviously.
    The episode of Dad's Army on right now is where Godfrey's courage is called into question.

    Amid the pratfalling and character comedy, there could be serious intent, too. This 1969 story, co-writer Jimmy Perry’s favourite, is a potent example.

    Mainwaring is appalled to learn that Private Godfrey was a “conchie” in the First World War, and the captain’s wrath merely inspires the other men to shun him. The way in which Godfrey is restored in his friends’ eyes — putting actor Arnold Ridley, himself an unrecognised war hero, in the spotlight — is restrained and poignant.

    https://www.radiotimes.com/programme/b-bdhb8z/dads-army-season-3/?episode=b-byk4ru
    I think that is the only episode of Dads Army that ever stuck with me. Really quite moving.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,835
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,494

    Could doing a lot of heavy lifting in this post.

    EXCLUSIVE

    Rupert Lowe could be charged over alleged threats towards Reform chair Zia Yusuf after the Met passed the case to the CPS

    Lowe denies the allegations, says it is “standard practice” for sensitive cases and “looks forward to clearing my name”


    https://x.com/DominicPenna/status/1919839297168969878

    Can they all lose? It would be really, really funny.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,477
    edited May 6

    isam said:

    From the Independent’s ‘View from Westminster’ email

    Keir wins India trade deal – and that is a bad thing?

    The prime minister has secured a trade deal with India that Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak tried to deliver but could not. So the Conservatives are attacking it with extra brio.

    Kemi Badenoch has denounced the national insurance contributions exemption for temporary workers as “two-tier taxes from two-tier Keir”, saying that she refused to agree to it when she was trade secretary.

    As far as I can tell, that part of the deal is a normal double-taxation agreement, so that Indians working here temporarily but paying social security contributions in India would not be charged twice, with the same applying in reverse to British temporary workers in India.

    But the terms will be exploited ruthlessly by the Tories and Reform, given the salience of immigration at the moment. Keir Starmer’s triumph has been muffled by the failure to prepare the ground for the tricky details.

    Written by John Rentoul

    That's the dilemma.

    It's probably a pretty reasonable arrangement. We're talking about contractors coming over from India for fixed terms, and still paying the Indian equivalent of NI in India. Plus (I think) the NHS surcharge while they're here, and they're not building up any entitlement to a UK pension.

    But it took me three lines to summarise that, which is always less exciting than "Undercutting our workers" sounds. Which, like certain other memes here, is at best an incomplete summary. At worst, it's technically true but totally dishonest.

    And if the threshold for a government is to only do things that can't be mashed into a dishonest summary, we might as well all give up now.
    Yes, reminds me of Starmer predicting the collapse of the NHS in the summer of chaos that didn’t happen in 2021 on the back of ‘The Johnson Variant’ of Covid
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,897
    Taz said:

    isam said:

    Does anybody here actually know whether the new ‘online triage’ offered/forced on patients at my local GP count toward the ‘millions of extra appointments’ Labour are talking about securing? @foxy ?

    Interesting you mention it, I can only get phone appointments for my GP via the rNHS app now. I used to be able to get physical appointments, I have a painful thumb base. Probably arthritic. Wanted a physical appointment. Got a phone one.
    My GPs have stopped allowing NHS app appointments at all.

    I never phone them. I wander in there and bother the receptionist in person. Actually easier, and perhaps more successful.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,835

    Could doing a lot of heavy lifting in this post.

    EXCLUSIVE

    Rupert Lowe could be charged over alleged threats towards Reform chair Zia Yusuf after the Met passed the case to the CPS

    Lowe denies the allegations, says it is “standard practice” for sensitive cases and “looks forward to clearing my name”


    https://x.com/DominicPenna/status/1919839297168969878

    Can they all lose? It would be really, really funny.
    Best result would be if Lowe wins his libel case and is awarded £1 in damages but everyone has to payout millions to their lawyers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,430
    ohnotnow said:

    Who was the Supreme Allied Commander who oversaw D day and victory in Europe?

    A. General Dwight Eisenhower
    B. Sir Winston Churchill
    C. Captain George Mainwaring
    D. General Bernard Montgomery

    Popular and actual answers to follow.

    All of the above.

    A) Military commander
    B Politician who insisted on more divisions.
    C) Organised the lynch pin of rear area defence
    D) Kept Eisenhower on his toes by wanting his job so obviously.
    The episode of Dad's Army on right now is where Godfrey's courage is called into question.

    Amid the pratfalling and character comedy, there could be serious intent, too. This 1969 story, co-writer Jimmy Perry’s favourite, is a potent example.

    Mainwaring is appalled to learn that Private Godfrey was a “conchie” in the First World War, and the captain’s wrath merely inspires the other men to shun him. The way in which Godfrey is restored in his friends’ eyes — putting actor Arnold Ridley, himself an unrecognised war hero, in the spotlight — is restrained and poignant.

    https://www.radiotimes.com/programme/b-bdhb8z/dads-army-season-3/?episode=b-byk4ru
    I think that is the only episode of Dads Army that ever stuck with me. Really quite moving.
    For Zat, You Go On Zee Liiiist!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,471

    ohnotnow said:

    Who was the Supreme Allied Commander who oversaw D day and victory in Europe?

    A. General Dwight Eisenhower
    B. Sir Winston Churchill
    C. Captain George Mainwaring
    D. General Bernard Montgomery

    Popular and actual answers to follow.

    All of the above.

    A) Military commander
    B Politician who insisted on more divisions.
    C) Organised the lynch pin of rear area defence
    D) Kept Eisenhower on his toes by wanting his job so obviously.
    The episode of Dad's Army on right now is where Godfrey's courage is called into question.

    Amid the pratfalling and character comedy, there could be serious intent, too. This 1969 story, co-writer Jimmy Perry’s favourite, is a potent example.

    Mainwaring is appalled to learn that Private Godfrey was a “conchie” in the First World War, and the captain’s wrath merely inspires the other men to shun him. The way in which Godfrey is restored in his friends’ eyes — putting actor Arnold Ridley, himself an unrecognised war hero, in the spotlight — is restrained and poignant.

    https://www.radiotimes.com/programme/b-bdhb8z/dads-army-season-3/?episode=b-byk4ru
    I think that is the only episode of Dads Army that ever stuck with me. Really quite moving.
    For Zat, You Go On Zee Liiiist!
    Don't tell him, Malmesbury!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    Not my question
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,664

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    Exactly!

    Reform would never have signed these deals.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,665
    Looking at the long term, i.e. generations, it would be a good thing for more immigration from the Indian subcontinent. Compared to white British, they are more hard working, support their older people, and encourage education. There are excellent examples of such people on PB, for example.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,474
    Taz said:

    isam said:

    Does anybody here actually know whether the new ‘online triage’ offered/forced on patients at my local GP count toward the ‘millions of extra appointments’ Labour are talking about securing? @foxy ?

    Interesting you mention it, I can only get phone appointments for my GP via the rNHS app now. I used to be able to get physical appointments, I have a painful thumb base. Probably arthritic. Wanted a physical appointment. Got a phone one.
    It sounds like phone thumb!

    So a phone appointment may be less than ideal.

    https://nyboneandjoint.com/what-is-texting-thumb-and-how-do-you-treat-it/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,085

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    What's the lowest GDP per capita of the countries on your list?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,897

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    What's the lowest GDP per capita of the countries on your list?
    Bulgaria $15k vs India $3k.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,354
    @acyn.bsky.social‬

    Reporter: I was watching your face during the meeting.. what was going through your mind when the President talked about erasing the border..

    Carney: I’m glad that you couldn’t tell what was going through my mind

    Reporter: Oh I could

    https://bsky.app/profile/acyn.bsky.social/post/3lojnhp66ok2v
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,665
    viewcode said:

    New @ITVWales poll puts Labour in THIRD in Wales, behind Plaid Cymru and Reform UK.

    If Labour don’t win next year’s Welsh elections, it’ll be first time they’ve not won an election there since 1922.

    🟢PLAID 30
    🌐REFORM 25
    🔴LABOUR 18
    🔵CONSERVATIVES 13
    🟡LIB DEMS 7
    🟢GREEN 5


    https://x.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1919810958135844876

    There is a part of me that likes the smaller parties winning. I don't know what a Plaid Senedd would do (compulsory Welsh? 10mph speed limit?) but it would be nice to see them try.

    Plaid and the SNP should consider joining Reform in government. They should appoint Farage as Minister for Independence, as he is the only British politician, apart from Johnson, who has successfully gained independence this century.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,888

    Looking at the long term, i.e. generations, it would be a good thing for more immigration from the Indian subcontinent. Compared to white British, they are more hard working, support their older people, and encourage education. There are excellent examples of such people on PB, for example.

    RACIST!
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,311

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    What's the lowest GDP per capita of the countries on your list?
    Not sure why that’s so important given it’s apparently limited to around 1,800 workers . And companies aren’t free to just ship as many temporary workers as they like .
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,835

    Looking at the long term, i.e. generations, it would be a good thing for more immigration from the Indian subcontinent. Compared to white British, they are more hard working, support their older people, and encourage education. There are excellent examples of such people on PB, for example.

    Testify.

    As the grandson of humble immigrants* to the UK from the Indian subcontinent I fit that description.

    I have been recently contemplating emigrating though.

    *Yes, the humility gene was wiped out within two generations.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,329

    viewcode said:

    New @ITVWales poll puts Labour in THIRD in Wales, behind Plaid Cymru and Reform UK.

    If Labour don’t win next year’s Welsh elections, it’ll be first time they’ve not won an election there since 1922.

    🟢PLAID 30
    🌐REFORM 25
    🔴LABOUR 18
    🔵CONSERVATIVES 13
    🟡LIB DEMS 7
    🟢GREEN 5


    https://x.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1919810958135844876

    There is a part of me that likes the smaller parties winning. I don't know what a Plaid Senedd would do (compulsory Welsh? 10mph speed limit?) but it would be nice to see them try.

    Plaid and the SNP should consider joining Reform in government. They should appoint Farage as Minister for Independence, as he is the only British politician, apart from Johnson, who has successfully gained independence this century.
    From the EU which they both opposed (and which in Plaid's case Wales also voted for)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345
    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    What's the lowest GDP per capita of the countries on your list?
    Not sure why that’s so important given it’s apparently limited to around 1,800 workers . And companies aren’t free to just ship as many temporary workers as they like .
    Citation?

    We have Farage saying: theoretically unlimited

    The Times saying: 100 a year (this I do not believe)

    And now this new random figure of 1800. Whence?

    It's quite important to know
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,439

    isam said:

    From the Independent’s ‘View from Westminster’ email

    Keir wins India trade deal – and that is a bad thing?

    The prime minister has secured a trade deal with India that Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak tried to deliver but could not. So the Conservatives are attacking it with extra brio.

    Kemi Badenoch has denounced the national insurance contributions exemption for temporary workers as “two-tier taxes from two-tier Keir”, saying that she refused to agree to it when she was trade secretary.

    As far as I can tell, that part of the deal is a normal double-taxation agreement, so that Indians working here temporarily but paying social security contributions in India would not be charged twice, with the same applying in reverse to British temporary workers in India.

    But the terms will be exploited ruthlessly by the Tories and Reform, given the salience of immigration at the moment. Keir Starmer’s triumph has been muffled by the failure to prepare the ground for the tricky details.

    Written by John Rentoul

    That's the dilemma.

    It's probably a pretty reasonable arrangement. We're talking about contractors coming over from India for fixed terms, and still paying the Indian equivalent of NI in India. Plus (I think) the NHS surcharge while they're here, and they're not building up any entitlement to a UK pension.

    But it took me three lines to summarise that, which is always less exciting than "Undercutting our workers" sounds. Which, like certain other memes here, is at best an incomplete summary. At worst, it's technically true but totally dishonest.

    And if the threshold for a government is to only do things that can't be mashed into a dishonest summary, we might as well all give up now.
    If the Conservative party had any sense, they would be taking a more cautious approach on this trade deal. Instead they go full throttle against Labour when it is obvious that the Conservatives have signed this clause in many trade deals, and pretty likely it was included in draft proposals when they were negotiating with India. Labour will point these things out, it won't do them much good, but it is their best defence. The only possible winner from the saga is Reform. Labour will take a hit, as will the Conservatives, but Labour, unlike the Conservatives, have the benefit of waiting and hoping for the economy to improve by election time.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,665
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    New @ITVWales poll puts Labour in THIRD in Wales, behind Plaid Cymru and Reform UK.

    If Labour don’t win next year’s Welsh elections, it’ll be first time they’ve not won an election there since 1922.

    🟢PLAID 30
    🌐REFORM 25
    🔴LABOUR 18
    🔵CONSERVATIVES 13
    🟡LIB DEMS 7
    🟢GREEN 5


    https://x.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1919810958135844876

    There is a part of me that likes the smaller parties winning. I don't know what a Plaid Senedd would do (compulsory Welsh? 10mph speed limit?) but it would be nice to see them try.

    Plaid and the SNP should consider joining Reform in government. They should appoint Farage as Minister for Independence, as he is the only British politician, apart from Johnson, who has successfully gained independence this century.
    From the EU which they both opposed (and which in Plaid's case Wales also voted for)
    I knew you would understand the irony.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,329

    isam said:

    From the Independent’s ‘View from Westminster’ email

    Keir wins India trade deal – and that is a bad thing?

    The prime minister has secured a trade deal with India that Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak tried to deliver but could not. So the Conservatives are attacking it with extra brio.

    Kemi Badenoch has denounced the national insurance contributions exemption for temporary workers as “two-tier taxes from two-tier Keir”, saying that she refused to agree to it when she was trade secretary.

    As far as I can tell, that part of the deal is a normal double-taxation agreement, so that Indians working here temporarily but paying social security contributions in India would not be charged twice, with the same applying in reverse to British temporary workers in India.

    But the terms will be exploited ruthlessly by the Tories and Reform, given the salience of immigration at the moment. Keir Starmer’s triumph has been muffled by the failure to prepare the ground for the tricky details.

    Written by John Rentoul

    That's the dilemma.

    It's probably a pretty reasonable arrangement. We're talking about contractors coming over from India for fixed terms, and still paying the Indian equivalent of NI in India. Plus (I think) the NHS surcharge while they're here, and they're not building up any entitlement to a UK pension.

    But it took me three lines to summarise that, which is always less exciting than "Undercutting our workers" sounds. Which, like certain other memes here, is at best an incomplete summary. At worst, it's technically true but totally dishonest.

    And if the threshold for a government is to only do things that can't be mashed into a dishonest summary, we might as well all give up now.
    If the Conservative party had any sense, they would be taking a more cautious approach on this trade deal. Instead they go full throttle against Labour when it is obvious that the Conservatives have signed this clause in many trade deals, and pretty likely it was included in draft proposals when they were negotiating with India. Labour will point these things out, it won't do them much good, but it is their best defence. The only possible winner from the saga is Reform. Labour will take a hit, as will the Conservatives, but Labour, unlike the Conservatives, have the benefit of waiting and hoping for the economy to improve by election time.
    Kemi made quite clear as Trade Secretary she refused to sign this form of deal with India precisely because of this clause
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,897
    edited May 6
    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    What's the lowest GDP per capita of the countries on your list?
    Not sure why that’s so important given it’s apparently limited to around 1,800 workers . And companies aren’t free to just ship as many temporary workers as they like .
    Citation?

    We have Farage saying: theoretically unlimited

    The Times saying: 100 a year (this I do not believe)

    And now this new random figure of 1800. Whence?

    It's quite important to know
    Different things. The double contribution stuff is all temporarily transferred workers. The 100 is sui generis work visas. Different categories, different conversations.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,748
    Johnson
    Truss
    Sunak
    Starmer

    Not much of an uptick in quality, is it?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,002
    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Casino_Royale in Gregg’s

    It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?

    Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain

    Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave

    This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course

    I find your constant ghoulish prophecies of "A Reform Government or something WORSE" quite irritating. What is wrong with a Reform Government? Reform are no more right wing than Major's Tory Government in the early 90's - in many respects the last decent one we had. They're certainly no righter wing than you, so please grow some moral courage and stop these daft 'more in sorrow than in anger' warnings.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,888
    Is it true that I'm the only Indian-born PBer in the PB Village?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345

    isam said:

    From the Independent’s ‘View from Westminster’ email

    Keir wins India trade deal – and that is a bad thing?

    The prime minister has secured a trade deal with India that Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak tried to deliver but could not. So the Conservatives are attacking it with extra brio.

    Kemi Badenoch has denounced the national insurance contributions exemption for temporary workers as “two-tier taxes from two-tier Keir”, saying that she refused to agree to it when she was trade secretary.

    As far as I can tell, that part of the deal is a normal double-taxation agreement, so that Indians working here temporarily but paying social security contributions in India would not be charged twice, with the same applying in reverse to British temporary workers in India.

    But the terms will be exploited ruthlessly by the Tories and Reform, given the salience of immigration at the moment. Keir Starmer’s triumph has been muffled by the failure to prepare the ground for the tricky details.

    Written by John Rentoul

    That's the dilemma.

    It's probably a pretty reasonable arrangement. We're talking about contractors coming over from India for fixed terms, and still paying the Indian equivalent of NI in India. Plus (I think) the NHS surcharge while they're here, and they're not building up any entitlement to a UK pension.

    But it took me three lines to summarise that, which is always less exciting than "Undercutting our workers" sounds. Which, like certain other memes here, is at best an incomplete summary. At worst, it's technically true but totally dishonest.

    And if the threshold for a government is to only do things that can't be mashed into a dishonest summary, we might as well all give up now.
    If the Conservative party had any sense, they would be taking a more cautious approach on this trade deal. Instead they go full throttle against Labour when it is obvious that the Conservatives have signed this clause in many trade deals, and pretty likely it was included in draft proposals when they were negotiating with India. Labour will point these things out, it won't do them much good, but it is their best defence. The only possible winner from the saga is Reform. Labour will take a hit, as will the Conservatives, but Labour, unlike the Conservatives, have the benefit of waiting and hoping for the economy to improve by election time.
    Ridiculous. This deal is absurdly bad, at least in perception, if the Tories start saying "oh this might not be so bad" then they look like pathetic weak saps

    They have no choice. They have to attack

    Maybe they can achieve @williamglenn's dream and the election becomes Tories V Reform. Unlikely, but possible
  • occasionalranteroccasionalranter Posts: 355

    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Casino_Royale in Gregg’s

    It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?

    Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain

    Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave

    This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course

    I find your constant ghoulish prophecies of "A Reform Government or something WORSE" quite irritating. What is wrong with a Reform Government? Reform are no more right wing than Major's Tory Government in the early 90's - in many respects the last decent one we had. They're certainly no righter wing than you, so please grow some moral courage and stop these daft 'more in sorrow than in anger' warnings.
    Uh-oh. Hostilities breaking out between the forum's premier edgelords.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,354
    @DPJHodges

    This perfectly encapsulates the problem with Keir Starmer. A couple of weeks ago he was proudly announcing the end of globalisation. This week he's proudly announcing tax cuts that will make it easier for Indian workers to take British jobs. It's utterly irrational politics.

    @AllieRenison

    They can’t take British jobs they need to have already been seconded on a temporary not permanent basis

    Come on Dan, do some research

    We have these deals on social security coordination with plenty of other countries so temporary workers do not pay the same type of tax twice
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345
    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    What's the lowest GDP per capita of the countries on your list?
    Not sure why that’s so important given it’s apparently limited to around 1,800 workers . And companies aren’t free to just ship as many temporary workers as they like .
    Citation?

    We have Farage saying: theoretically unlimited

    The Times saying: 100 a year (this I do not believe)

    And now this new random figure of 1800. Whence?

    It's quite important to know
    Different things. The double contribution stuff is all temporarily transferred workers. The 100 is sui generis work visas. Different categories, different conversations.
    OK... thankyou. So what is the theoretical maximum number of Indian workers that might benefit from this?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,329

    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Casino_Royale in Gregg’s

    It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?

    Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain

    Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave

    This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course

    I find your constant ghoulish prophecies of "A Reform Government or something WORSE" quite irritating. What is wrong with a Reform Government? Reform are no more right wing than Major's Tory Government in the early 90's - in many respects the last decent one we had. They're certainly no righter wing than you, so please grow some moral courage and stop these daft 'more in sorrow than in anger' warnings.
    I don't remember Major's government backing leaving the EU let alone the ECHR. Nor considering replacing the NHS with an insurance based healthcare system nor promising the level of cuts Reform want.

    There is an ideological case for Reform but Farage is certainly right of where Major was and not forgetting that Major hates Trump and Farage loves him
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,439
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    From the Independent’s ‘View from Westminster’ email

    Keir wins India trade deal – and that is a bad thing?

    The prime minister has secured a trade deal with India that Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak tried to deliver but could not. So the Conservatives are attacking it with extra brio.

    Kemi Badenoch has denounced the national insurance contributions exemption for temporary workers as “two-tier taxes from two-tier Keir”, saying that she refused to agree to it when she was trade secretary.

    As far as I can tell, that part of the deal is a normal double-taxation agreement, so that Indians working here temporarily but paying social security contributions in India would not be charged twice, with the same applying in reverse to British temporary workers in India.

    But the terms will be exploited ruthlessly by the Tories and Reform, given the salience of immigration at the moment. Keir Starmer’s triumph has been muffled by the failure to prepare the ground for the tricky details.

    Written by John Rentoul

    That's the dilemma.

    It's probably a pretty reasonable arrangement. We're talking about contractors coming over from India for fixed terms, and still paying the Indian equivalent of NI in India. Plus (I think) the NHS surcharge while they're here, and they're not building up any entitlement to a UK pension.

    But it took me three lines to summarise that, which is always less exciting than "Undercutting our workers" sounds. Which, like certain other memes here, is at best an incomplete summary. At worst, it's technically true but totally dishonest.

    And if the threshold for a government is to only do things that can't be mashed into a dishonest summary, we might as well all give up now.
    If the Conservative party had any sense, they would be taking a more cautious approach on this trade deal. Instead they go full throttle against Labour when it is obvious that the Conservatives have signed this clause in many trade deals, and pretty likely it was included in draft proposals when they were negotiating with India. Labour will point these things out, it won't do them much good, but it is their best defence. The only possible winner from the saga is Reform. Labour will take a hit, as will the Conservatives, but Labour, unlike the Conservatives, have the benefit of waiting and hoping for the economy to improve by election time.
    Ridiculous. This deal is absurdly bad, at least in perception, if the Tories start saying "oh this might not be so bad" then they look like pathetic weak saps

    They have no choice. They have to attack

    Maybe they can achieve @williamglenn's dream and the election becomes Tories V Reform. Unlikely, but possible
    And Labour will say, the Tories did the same.

    How can the Tories possibly benefit? All the benefit goes to Reform.

    Right now, the Conservatives need to hurt Reform not Labour.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,430

    Looking at the long term, i.e. generations, it would be a good thing for more immigration from the Indian subcontinent. Compared to white British, they are more hard working, support their older people, and encourage education. There are excellent examples of such people on PB, for example.

    RACIST!
    All you need is the pith helmet, the gin & tonic and a stick to thrash the beastly natives with….
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    From the Independent’s ‘View from Westminster’ email

    Keir wins India trade deal – and that is a bad thing?

    The prime minister has secured a trade deal with India that Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak tried to deliver but could not. So the Conservatives are attacking it with extra brio.

    Kemi Badenoch has denounced the national insurance contributions exemption for temporary workers as “two-tier taxes from two-tier Keir”, saying that she refused to agree to it when she was trade secretary.

    As far as I can tell, that part of the deal is a normal double-taxation agreement, so that Indians working here temporarily but paying social security contributions in India would not be charged twice, with the same applying in reverse to British temporary workers in India.

    But the terms will be exploited ruthlessly by the Tories and Reform, given the salience of immigration at the moment. Keir Starmer’s triumph has been muffled by the failure to prepare the ground for the tricky details.

    Written by John Rentoul

    That's the dilemma.

    It's probably a pretty reasonable arrangement. We're talking about contractors coming over from India for fixed terms, and still paying the Indian equivalent of NI in India. Plus (I think) the NHS surcharge while they're here, and they're not building up any entitlement to a UK pension.

    But it took me three lines to summarise that, which is always less exciting than "Undercutting our workers" sounds. Which, like certain other memes here, is at best an incomplete summary. At worst, it's technically true but totally dishonest.

    And if the threshold for a government is to only do things that can't be mashed into a dishonest summary, we might as well all give up now.
    If the Conservative party had any sense, they would be taking a more cautious approach on this trade deal. Instead they go full throttle against Labour when it is obvious that the Conservatives have signed this clause in many trade deals, and pretty likely it was included in draft proposals when they were negotiating with India. Labour will point these things out, it won't do them much good, but it is their best defence. The only possible winner from the saga is Reform. Labour will take a hit, as will the Conservatives, but Labour, unlike the Conservatives, have the benefit of waiting and hoping for the economy to improve by election time.
    Ridiculous. This deal is absurdly bad, at least in perception, if the Tories start saying "oh this might not be so bad" then they look like pathetic weak saps

    They have no choice. They have to attack

    Maybe they can achieve @williamglenn's dream and the election becomes Tories V Reform. Unlikely, but possible
    And Labour will say, the Tories did the same.

    How can the Tories possibly benefit? All the benefit goes to Reform.

    Right now, the Conservatives need to hurt Reform not Labour.
    Moronic
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,002
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad

    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    What concerns me more is employer national insurance. If UK employers don't have to pay their (increased) national insurance contributions on temporary Indian workers, but they do for UK ones, that places UK workers at a big disadvantage.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,897
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    What's the lowest GDP per capita of the countries on your list?
    Not sure why that’s so important given it’s apparently limited to around 1,800 workers . And companies aren’t free to just ship as many temporary workers as they like .
    Citation?

    We have Farage saying: theoretically unlimited

    The Times saying: 100 a year (this I do not believe)

    And now this new random figure of 1800. Whence?

    It's quite important to know
    Different things. The double contribution stuff is all temporarily transferred workers. The 100 is sui generis work visas. Different categories, different conversations.
    OK... thankyou. So what is the theoretical maximum number of Indian workers that might benefit from this?
    The double contribution? 1.438 billion, pending a relaxation of our child labour laws.

    The 100 stuff? Whatever the real number is in the deal. We don't know yet.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the actual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad

    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    What concerns me more is employer national insurance. If UK employers don't have to pay their (increased) national insurance contributions on temporary Indian workers, but they do for UK ones, that places UK workers at a big disadvantage.
    I'm pretty sure that is exactly the case, hence the furore. The queries surround the potential numbers, the actual gains for employers etc
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,174
    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    What's the lowest GDP per capita of the countries on your list?
    Not sure why that’s so important given it’s apparently limited to around 1,800 workers . And companies aren’t free to just ship as many temporary workers as they like .
    Citation?

    We have Farage saying: theoretically unlimited

    The Times saying: 100 a year (this I do not believe)

    And now this new random figure of 1800. Whence?

    It's quite important to know
    1800 was Alexander's figure talking to Sophie Ridge on Sky
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,002
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Casino_Royale in Gregg’s

    It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?

    Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain

    Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave

    This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course

    I find your constant ghoulish prophecies of "A Reform Government or something WORSE" quite irritating. What is wrong with a Reform Government? Reform are no more right wing than Major's Tory Government in the early 90's - in many respects the last decent one we had. They're certainly no righter wing than you, so please grow some moral courage and stop these daft 'more in sorrow than in anger' warnings.
    I don't remember Major's government backing leaving the EU let alone the ECHR. Nor considering replacing the NHS with an insurance based healthcare system nor promising the level of cuts Reform want.

    There is an ideological case for Reform but Farage is certainly right of where Major was and not forgetting that Major hates Trump and Farage loves him
    This is just a word salad.

    Neither the ECHR nor the EU were the same organisations that they later became in Major's time.

    Nor can you compare Major's rent-a-euroloon views now to the (mostly fairly sensible) actions of his Government then.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345

    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    On the super reliable “angry Daily Mail comments” metric, British Jobs For Indian Workers is a catastrophe. 7000 angry comments in about 3 hours. Up there with WFA

    However it’s important to note

    1. This is the daily mail

    And

    2. 5000 of these people might be me, bored with a cold

    'Under the terms of the deal, some Indian and British workers will also gain from a three-year exemption from social security payments, which the Indian government called "an unprecedented achievement".

    The exemption applies to the staff of Indian companies temporarily transferred to the UK, and to UK firms' workers transferred to India. Social security contributions will be paid by employers and employees in their home country only, rather than in both places.'

    So for all those British workers heading for the big job in India at less than UK minimum wage it is a great outcome (unless they get some plum job like adviser to an Indian billionaire in Mumbai)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6y90e5vzo
    Yes indeed

    My Leon-sense tells me this is a terrible moment for Labour, and the Daily Mail commenters are right

    Two Tier Taxes? Really????

    It's like a slow political seppuku. Even if the entrails of the deal turn out to be OK it is already a PR disaster playing into all the worst perceptions of a "treacherous" "Chagos surrendering" "two tier sentencing" lefty government. And, of course, the aictual details might turn out to be genuinely That Bad
    n
    Nige inches closer to Number 10

    What were they thinking? Again I am boggled
    Wait until Leon learns there are several tiers of taxation on say income tax, ditto NI.

    Some of us don't even receive a personal allowance.
    Come on, you can do better than this

    What are the optics of Two Tier Taxes? It is calamitous for Labour
    Looking at my work system, there's around 17 countries who enjoy this benefit, a lot of these deals were signed by the Tories, including the government of which Kemi Badenoch was a member of.
    What's the lowest GDP per capita of the countries on your list?
    Not sure why that’s so important given it’s apparently limited to around 1,800 workers . And companies aren’t free to just ship as many temporary workers as they like .
    Citation?

    We have Farage saying: theoretically unlimited

    The Times saying: 100 a year (this I do not believe)

    And now this new random figure of 1800. Whence?

    It's quite important to know
    1800 was Alexander's figure talking to Sophie Ridge on Sky
    Yes, but is this a guess - like Blair's 13,000 from the Accession Countries (disastrously wrong) - or is it a legal ceiling? I am sensing it is a guess. But I am happy to be corrected

    If it IS a guess that is apocalyptic for Labour
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,474

    Looking at the long term, i.e. generations, it would be a good thing for more immigration from the Indian subcontinent. Compared to white British, they are more hard working, support their older people, and encourage education. There are excellent examples of such people on PB, for example.

    RACIST!
    All you need is the pith helmet, the gin & tonic and a stick to thrash the beastly natives with….
    I am sure that we have a PB contributor who is suitably equipped and motivated.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,002

    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Casino_Royale in Gregg’s

    It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?

    Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain

    Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave

    This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course

    I find your constant ghoulish prophecies of "A Reform Government or something WORSE" quite irritating. What is wrong with a Reform Government? Reform are no more right wing than Major's Tory Government in the early 90's - in many respects the last decent one we had. They're certainly no righter wing than you, so please grow some moral courage and stop these daft 'more in sorrow than in anger' warnings.
    Uh-oh. Hostilities breaking out between the forum's premier edgelords.
    Leon and I disagree all the time. That's what happens when you have a personality - give it a try some time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345
    MEANWHILE

    BREAKING:

    Indian missiles start striking Pakistani territory in at least 3 locations.

    The Indian attack is now in full swing. Lots of fighter jets in the air.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1919848022596255826



  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919
    India celebrates the trade agreement……by attacking Pakistan.

    In the words of Chris Morris on The Day Today

    It’s war !!!

    https://x.com/adityarajkaul/status/1919849703912382939?s=61
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,300
    Did a big walk today

    Twenty eight miles from Saint Gaudens to Saint Girons, to set myself up for another big one tomorrow to Foix

    Nothing interesting happened, but I did get a hankering for veal


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,430

    Looking at the long term, i.e. generations, it would be a good thing for more immigration from the Indian subcontinent. Compared to white British, they are more hard working, support their older people, and encourage education. There are excellent examples of such people on PB, for example.

    Testify.

    As the grandson of humble immigrants* to the UK from the Indian subcontinent I fit that description.

    I have been recently contemplating emigrating though.

    *Yes, the humility gene was wiped out within two generations.
    I worked for a company that development units around the world, developing the same code base.

    They conducted a study of cost per feature delivered. Actual results, not lines of code

    London was the cheapest
    Eastern Europe was just behind
    Canada was next

    India was dead last, by a long way. The reasons are pretty obvious if you saw the conditions.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,888
    CRY "HAVOC" AND LET SLIP THE DOGS OF WAR!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345
    In news to confuse, arch-Brexiteer Dan Hannan thoroughly approves of the deal

    https://x.com/DanielJHannan/status/1919828966762021130
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,455
    carnforth said:

    Two Tier really is genius coinage. Almost endlessly applicable, correctly or otherwise.

    Really it should be spelled Two Teir, of course.

    Kemi had to re-do her post because she spelt the PM “Kier”
    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/1919777258622820709
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919
    Leon said:

    MEANWHILE

    BREAKING:

    Indian missiles start striking Pakistani territory in at least 3 locations.

    The Indian attack is now in full swing. Lots of fighter jets in the air.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1919848022596255826



    I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,151
    edited May 6

    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Casino_Royale in Gregg’s

    It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?

    Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain

    Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave

    This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course

    I find your constant ghoulish prophecies of "A Reform Government or something WORSE" quite irritating. What is wrong with a Reform Government? Reform are no more right wing than Major's Tory Government in the early 90's - in many respects the last decent one we had. They're certainly no righter wing than you, so please grow some moral courage and stop these daft 'more in sorrow than in anger' warnings.
    What is wrong with a Reform government? Well, there are no obviously outstanding candidates for government so that the fact there is lots potentially wrong matters less than it might but it still matters.

    Here are three things:

    1) Inexperience. Listen to (say) Blair, Mark Carney or Cameron for five minutes and ask whether Reform will have front bench to speak for the UK in the corridors of power.
    2) From the 2024 effort - 2029 manifesto unknown - their economics is somewhere between meaningless and catastrophic. It is not possible to articulate what they mean about tax, spend, deficit, debt etc. Their figures don't add up. They are not alone in this, but of course their USP is that unlike all the others they are honest and for the people and will get stuff done.
    3) They have some unpleasant friends and their leader is in many ways an unsatisfactory team player.

    I agree they may well not be right wing, except on migration (if that counts as right wing). They are social democrats really, like everyone else. Their voters will leave them no choice about that.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,144
    edited May 6
    The reaction to a bog standard social security agreement, that’s good news for British expats, Indian expats, business and both economies is mind boggling.

    My firm has a few thousand people in the UK and a few thousand each in various other countries including India. At the moment if one of my team is sent to spend a couple of years in Germany, or Korea, or the Philippines or various other places they only pay NI once, here in Britain. But if they go to India they currently pay it both here and in India. We send several dozen people on assignment to our Indian office every year, and they send a similar number here, and the double taxation is a very real cost. The same is true across hundreds of multinationals. Double taxation of posted workers is unfair, and economically stupid. It hits British workers going abroad just as much as vice versa.


    Remember our employee and - particularly - employer NI is much lower than most other large economies and in general UK employers posting Brits abroad benefit much more than vice versa.

    The Tories are utterly hypocritical and shameless on this. At least Reform don’t pretend to want to encourage Indian business or entrepreneurs. But in one breath Kemi and Co are moaning that repealing the non dom rules mean poor old rich Indians will leave the country because they have to pay more tax, in the next they are claiming that having people pay tax only once on the same income is two tier tax. And then in the third breath they’re on their second handbrake turn and objecting to inheritance tax on the principle that you shouldn’t be taxed twice on the same income.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919

    carnforth said:

    Two Tier really is genius coinage. Almost endlessly applicable, correctly or otherwise.

    Really it should be spelled Two Teir, of course.

    Kemi had to re-do her post because she spelt the PM “Kier”
    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/1919777258622820709
    Ooh, there’s one or two here that would trigger.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,002

    ohnotnow said:

    Who was the Supreme Allied Commander who oversaw D day and victory in Europe?

    A. General Dwight Eisenhower
    B. Sir Winston Churchill
    C. Captain George Mainwaring
    D. General Bernard Montgomery

    Popular and actual answers to follow.

    All of the above.

    A) Military commander
    B Politician who insisted on more divisions.
    C) Organised the lynch pin of rear area defence
    D) Kept Eisenhower on his toes by wanting his job so obviously.
    The episode of Dad's Army on right now is where Godfrey's courage is called into question.

    Amid the pratfalling and character comedy, there could be serious intent, too. This 1969 story, co-writer Jimmy Perry’s favourite, is a potent example.

    Mainwaring is appalled to learn that Private Godfrey was a “conchie” in the First World War, and the captain’s wrath merely inspires the other men to shun him. The way in which Godfrey is restored in his friends’ eyes — putting actor Arnold Ridley, himself an unrecognised war hero, in the spotlight — is restrained and poignant.

    https://www.radiotimes.com/programme/b-bdhb8z/dads-army-season-3/?episode=b-byk4ru
    I think that is the only episode of Dads Army that ever stuck with me. Really quite moving.
    For Zat, You Go On Zee Liiiist!
    I liked the one where Mainwaring was hanging off a barrage balloon infront of a primitive green screen effect. I howled.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,888
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    MEANWHILE

    BREAKING:

    Indian missiles start striking Pakistani territory in at least 3 locations.

    The Indian attack is now in full swing. Lots of fighter jets in the air.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1919848022596255826



    I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.

    TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919
    TimS said:

    The reaction to a bog standard social security agreement, that’s good news for British expats, Indian expats, business and both economies is mind boggling.

    My firm has a few thousand people in the UK and a few thousand each in various other countries including India. At the moment of one of my team is sent to spend a couple of years in Germany, or Korea, or the Philippines or various other places they only pay NI once, here in Britain. But if they go to India they currently pay it here and in India. We send several dozen people on assignment to our Indian office every year, and they send a similar number here, and the double taxation is a very real cost. The same is true across hundreds of multinationals. Double taxation of posted workers is unfair, and economically stupid. It hits British workers going abroad just as much as vice versa.

    The Tories are utterly hypocritical and shameless on this. At least Reform don’t pretend to want to encourage Indian business or entrepreneurs. But in one breath Kemi and Co are moaning that repealing the non dom rules mean poor old rich Indians will leave the country because they have to pay more tax, in the next they are claiming that having people pay tax only once on the same income is two tier tax. And then in the third breath they’re on their second handbrake turn and objecting to inheritance tax on the principle that you shouldn’t be taxed twice on the same income.

    The Lib Dem’s will vote against it. Presumably they don’t want to encourage Indian businesses and Entrepreneurs too.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-local-elections-labour-reform-starmer-farage-tories-lib-dems-greens-12593360
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345
    edited May 6
    TimS said:

    The reaction to a bog standard social security agreement, that’s good news for British expats, Indian expats, business and both economies is mind boggling.

    My firm has a few thousand people in the UK and a few thousand each in various other countries including India. At the moment of one of my team is sent to spend a couple of years in Germany, or Korea, or the Philippines or various other places they only pay NI once, here in Britain. But if they go to India they currently pay it here and in India. We send several dozen people on assignment to our Indian office every year, and they send a similar number here, and the double taxation is a very real cost. The same is true across hundreds of multinationals. Double taxation of posted workers is unfair, and economically stupid. It hits British workers going abroad just as much as vice versa.

    The Tories are utterly hypocritical and shameless on this. At least Reform don’t pretend to want to encourage Indian business or entrepreneurs. But in one breath Kemi and Co are moaning that repealing the non dom rules mean poor old rich Indians will leave the country because they have to pay more tax, in the next they are claiming that having people pay tax only once on the same income is two tier tax. And then in the third breath they’re on their second handbrake turn and objecting to inheritance tax on the principle that you shouldn’t be taxed twice on the same income.

    The numbers of Indians that come are uncapped. Two Tier Taxes, and uncapped. We CAN cap them, but who trusts a British government to cap them, after the Boriswave?

    Whatever tedious wank you churn out, this is a politically catastrophic move by Labour, and the Tories are right to pile on. And as for hypocrisy, give me a break, your party - the Liberal DEMOCRATS - wanted to simply REVOKE the Brexit referendum
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,439
    edited May 6
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt for @Casino_Royale in Gregg’s

    It’s also broken windows theory in action. With every shoplift tolerated, every ticket easily dodged, every tag of graffiti met with a shrug, the social contract frays. The law abiding citizens ask themselves - why the fuck am I paying? Am I the sucker here?

    Ditto dodgy asylum seekers in 4 star hotels as honest people spend years trying to get the right to remain

    Meanwhile tax payers are quietly enraged, and very high taxpayers simply leave

    This is the frog boiling of an entire nation and it will end with a reform government and then something worse if we don’t change course

    I find your constant ghoulish prophecies of "A Reform Government or something WORSE" quite irritating. What is wrong with a Reform Government? Reform are no more right wing than Major's Tory Government in the early 90's - in many respects the last decent one we had. They're certainly no righter wing than you, so please grow some moral courage and stop these daft 'more in sorrow than in anger' warnings.
    What is wrong with a Reform government? Well, there are no obviously outstanding candidates for government so that the fact there is lots potentially wrong matters less than it might but it still matters.

    Here are three things:

    1) Inexperience. Listen to (say) Blair, Mark Carney or Cameron for five minutes and ask whether Reform will have front bench to speak for the UK in the corridors of power.
    2) From the 2024 effort - 2029 manifesto unknown - their economics is somewhere between meaningless and catastrophic. It is not possible to articulate what they mean about tax, spend, deficit, debt etc. Their figures don't add up. They are not alone in this, but of course their USP is that unlike all the others they are honest and for the people and will get stuff done.
    3) They have some unpleasant friends and their leader is in many ways an unsatisfactory team player.

    I agree they may well not be right wing, except on migration (if that counts as right wing). They are social democrats really, like everyone else. Their voters will leave them no choice about that.
    That is all true, but it is also true of Conservatives and some of it, to an extent Labour too.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,151
    What a class act Mark Carney was today. Quite moving.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,454
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    MEANWHILE

    BREAKING:

    Indian missiles start striking Pakistani territory in at least 3 locations.

    The Indian attack is now in full swing. Lots of fighter jets in the air.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1919848022596255826



    I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.

    It'll probably be good for glass and chipboard merchants.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,144
    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    The reaction to a bog standard social security agreement, that’s good news for British expats, Indian expats, business and both economies is mind boggling.

    My firm has a few thousand people in the UK and a few thousand each in various other countries including India. At the moment of one of my team is sent to spend a couple of years in Germany, or Korea, or the Philippines or various other places they only pay NI once, here in Britain. But if they go to India they currently pay it here and in India. We send several dozen people on assignment to our Indian office every year, and they send a similar number here, and the double taxation is a very real cost. The same is true across hundreds of multinationals. Double taxation of posted workers is unfair, and economically stupid. It hits British workers going abroad just as much as vice versa.

    The Tories are utterly hypocritical and shameless on this. At least Reform don’t pretend to want to encourage Indian business or entrepreneurs. But in one breath Kemi and Co are moaning that repealing the non dom rules mean poor old rich Indians will leave the country because they have to pay more tax, in the next they are claiming that having people pay tax only once on the same income is two tier tax. And then in the third breath they’re on their second handbrake turn and objecting to inheritance tax on the principle that you shouldn’t be taxed twice on the same income.

    The Lib Dem’s will vote against it. Presumably they don’t want to encourage Indian businesses and Entrepreneurs too.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-local-elections-labour-reform-starmer-farage-tories-lib-dems-greens-12593360
    The Lib Dems don’t like it because it’s a post-Brexit trade deal and they think we should focus on the EU. They are wrong on this one, it’s a decent deal - better than I expected.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,010
    Leon said:

    In news to confuse, arch-Brexiteer Dan Hannan thoroughly approves of the deal

    https://x.com/DanielJHannan/status/1919828966762021130

    Of course he does. This deal is the very embodiment of Brexit freedom.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919

    ohnotnow said:

    Who was the Supreme Allied Commander who oversaw D day and victory in Europe?

    A. General Dwight Eisenhower
    B. Sir Winston Churchill
    C. Captain George Mainwaring
    D. General Bernard Montgomery

    Popular and actual answers to follow.

    All of the above.

    A) Military commander
    B Politician who insisted on more divisions.
    C) Organised the lynch pin of rear area defence
    D) Kept Eisenhower on his toes by wanting his job so obviously.
    The episode of Dad's Army on right now is where Godfrey's courage is called into question.

    Amid the pratfalling and character comedy, there could be serious intent, too. This 1969 story, co-writer Jimmy Perry’s favourite, is a potent example.

    Mainwaring is appalled to learn that Private Godfrey was a “conchie” in the First World War, and the captain’s wrath merely inspires the other men to shun him. The way in which Godfrey is restored in his friends’ eyes — putting actor Arnold Ridley, himself an unrecognised war hero, in the spotlight — is restrained and poignant.

    https://www.radiotimes.com/programme/b-bdhb8z/dads-army-season-3/?episode=b-byk4ru
    I think that is the only episode of Dads Army that ever stuck with me. Really quite moving.
    For Zat, You Go On Zee Liiiist!
    I liked the one where Mainwaring was hanging off a barrage balloon infront of a primitive green screen effect. I howled.
    Yes, the title being, rather aptly, The Day the Balloon Went Up.

    Back then it was called CSO. Often used in Dr Who.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,888
    algarkirk said:

    What a class act Mark Carney was today. Quite moving.

    "Governor" Carney :lol:
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    MEANWHILE

    BREAKING:

    Indian missiles start striking Pakistani territory in at least 3 locations.

    The Indian attack is now in full swing. Lots of fighter jets in the air.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1919848022596255826



    I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.

    TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
    Why ? Are they of Pakistani heritage ? The war is India v Pakistan not India v Islam.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    The reaction to a bog standard social security agreement, that’s good news for British expats, Indian expats, business and both economies is mind boggling.

    My firm has a few thousand people in the UK and a few thousand each in various other countries including India. At the moment of one of my team is sent to spend a couple of years in Germany, or Korea, or the Philippines or various other places they only pay NI once, here in Britain. But if they go to India they currently pay it here and in India. We send several dozen people on assignment to our Indian office every year, and they send a similar number here, and the double taxation is a very real cost. The same is true across hundreds of multinationals. Double taxation of posted workers is unfair, and economically stupid. It hits British workers going abroad just as much as vice versa.

    The Tories are utterly hypocritical and shameless on this. At least Reform don’t pretend to want to encourage Indian business or entrepreneurs. But in one breath Kemi and Co are moaning that repealing the non dom rules mean poor old rich Indians will leave the country because they have to pay more tax, in the next they are claiming that having people pay tax only once on the same income is two tier tax. And then in the third breath they’re on their second handbrake turn and objecting to inheritance tax on the principle that you shouldn’t be taxed twice on the same income.

    The Lib Dem’s will vote against it. Presumably they don’t want to encourage Indian businesses and Entrepreneurs too.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-local-elections-labour-reform-starmer-farage-tories-lib-dems-greens-12593360
    The Lib Dems don’t like it because it’s a post-Brexit trade deal and they think we should focus on the EU. They are wrong on this one, it’s a decent deal - better than I expected.
    They’re just opposing for the sake of it.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 750

    Did a big walk today

    Twenty eight miles from Saint Gaudens to Saint Girons, to set myself up for another big one tomorrow to Foix

    Nothing interesting happened, but I did get a hankering for veal


    So still on the Chemin du Piémont Pyrénéen. 58 miles and 4000 ft over the 2 days. Getting slightly easier with the elevation.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,888
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    MEANWHILE

    BREAKING:

    Indian missiles start striking Pakistani territory in at least 3 locations.

    The Indian attack is now in full swing. Lots of fighter jets in the air.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1919848022596255826



    I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.

    TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
    Why ? Are they of Pakistani heritage ? The war is India v Pakistan not India v Islam.
    How did modern Pakistan and India come about?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,144
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    The reaction to a bog standard social security agreement, that’s good news for British expats, Indian expats, business and both economies is mind boggling.

    My firm has a few thousand people in the UK and a few thousand each in various other countries including India. At the moment of one of my team is sent to spend a couple of years in Germany, or Korea, or the Philippines or various other places they only pay NI once, here in Britain. But if they go to India they currently pay it here and in India. We send several dozen people on assignment to our Indian office every year, and they send a similar number here, and the double taxation is a very real cost. The same is true across hundreds of multinationals. Double taxation of posted workers is unfair, and economically stupid. It hits British workers going abroad just as much as vice versa.

    The Tories are utterly hypocritical and shameless on this. At least Reform don’t pretend to want to encourage Indian business or entrepreneurs. But in one breath Kemi and Co are moaning that repealing the non dom rules mean poor old rich Indians will leave the country because they have to pay more tax, in the next they are claiming that having people pay tax only once on the same income is two tier tax. And then in the third breath they’re on their second handbrake turn and objecting to inheritance tax on the principle that you shouldn’t be taxed twice on the same income.

    The numbers of Indians that come are uncapped. Two Tier Taxes, and uncapped. We CAN cap them, but who trusts a British government to cap them, after the Boriswave?

    Whatever tedious wank you churn out, this is a politically catastrophic move by Labour, and the Tories are right to pile on. And as for hyprocrisy, give me a break, your party - the Liberal DEMOCRATS - wanted to simply REVOKE the Brexit referendum
    Having revoke in a manifesto might be offensive or bad policy, though given it was in a manifesto up for a vote (and they lost) in a democratic election I don’t see why, but it’s not hypocrisy.

    As to the rest of the tedious wank, it’s just facts, that’s all.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,144
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    The reaction to a bog standard social security agreement, that’s good news for British expats, Indian expats, business and both economies is mind boggling.

    My firm has a few thousand people in the UK and a few thousand each in various other countries including India. At the moment of one of my team is sent to spend a couple of years in Germany, or Korea, or the Philippines or various other places they only pay NI once, here in Britain. But if they go to India they currently pay it here and in India. We send several dozen people on assignment to our Indian office every year, and they send a similar number here, and the double taxation is a very real cost. The same is true across hundreds of multinationals. Double taxation of posted workers is unfair, and economically stupid. It hits British workers going abroad just as much as vice versa.

    The Tories are utterly hypocritical and shameless on this. At least Reform don’t pretend to want to encourage Indian business or entrepreneurs. But in one breath Kemi and Co are moaning that repealing the non dom rules mean poor old rich Indians will leave the country because they have to pay more tax, in the next they are claiming that having people pay tax only once on the same income is two tier tax. And then in the third breath they’re on their second handbrake turn and objecting to inheritance tax on the principle that you shouldn’t be taxed twice on the same income.

    The numbers of Indians that come are uncapped. Two Tier Taxes, and uncapped. We CAN cap them, but who trusts a British government to cap them, after the Boriswave?

    Whatever tedious wank you churn out, this is a politically catastrophic move by Labour, and the Tories are right to pile on. And as for hyprocrisy, give me a break, your party - the Liberal DEMOCRATS - wanted to simply REVOKE the Brexit referendum
    Having revoke in a manifesto might be offensive or bad policy, though given it was in a manifesto up for a vote (and they lost) in a democratic election I don’t see why, but it’s not hypocrisy.

    As to the rest of the tedious wank, it’s just facts, that’s all.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,439
    edited May 6
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    From the Independent’s ‘View from Westminster’ email

    Keir wins India trade deal – and that is a bad thing?

    The prime minister has secured a trade deal with India that Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak tried to deliver but could not. So the Conservatives are attacking it with extra brio.

    Kemi Badenoch has denounced the national insurance contributions exemption for temporary workers as “two-tier taxes from two-tier Keir”, saying that she refused to agree to it when she was trade secretary.

    As far as I can tell, that part of the deal is a normal double-taxation agreement, so that Indians working here temporarily but paying social security contributions in India would not be charged twice, with the same applying in reverse to British temporary workers in India.

    But the terms will be exploited ruthlessly by the Tories and Reform, given the salience of immigration at the moment. Keir Starmer’s triumph has been muffled by the failure to prepare the ground for the tricky details.

    Written by John Rentoul

    That's the dilemma.

    It's probably a pretty reasonable arrangement. We're talking about contractors coming over from India for fixed terms, and still paying the Indian equivalent of NI in India. Plus (I think) the NHS surcharge while they're here, and they're not building up any entitlement to a UK pension.

    But it took me three lines to summarise that, which is always less exciting than "Undercutting our workers" sounds. Which, like certain other memes here, is at best an incomplete summary. At worst, it's technically true but totally dishonest.

    And if the threshold for a government is to only do things that can't be mashed into a dishonest summary, we might as well all give up now.
    If the Conservative party had any sense, they would be taking a more cautious approach on this trade deal. Instead they go full throttle against Labour when it is obvious that the Conservatives have signed this clause in many trade deals, and pretty likely it was included in draft proposals when they were negotiating with India. Labour will point these things out, it won't do them much good, but it is their best defence. The only possible winner from the saga is Reform. Labour will take a hit, as will the Conservatives, but Labour, unlike the Conservatives, have the benefit of waiting and hoping for the economy to improve by election time.
    Ridiculous. This deal is absurdly bad, at least in perception, if the Tories start saying "oh this might not be so bad" then they look like pathetic weak saps

    They have no choice. They have to attack

    Maybe they can achieve @williamglenn's dream and the election becomes Tories V Reform. Unlikely, but possible
    And Labour will say, the Tories did the same.

    How can the Tories possibly benefit? All the benefit goes to Reform.

    Right now, the Conservatives need to hurt Reform not Labour.
    Moronic
    Explain how this helps the Conservatives and not Reform? The polling momentum will continue to shift to them and against the Tories.
  • occasionalranteroccasionalranter Posts: 355
    Leon said:

    In news to confuse, arch-Brexiteer Dan Hannan thoroughly approves of the deal

    https://x.com/DanielJHannan/status/1919828966762021130

    It's probably an IQ thing.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,439

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    MEANWHILE

    BREAKING:

    Indian missiles start striking Pakistani territory in at least 3 locations.

    The Indian attack is now in full swing. Lots of fighter jets in the air.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1919848022596255826



    I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.

    TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
    Why ? Are they of Pakistani heritage ? The war is India v Pakistan not India v Islam.
    How did modern Pakistan and India come about?
    Was it when Donald J Trump created the world in 7 days?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,002

    algarkirk said:

    What a class act Mark Carney was today. Quite moving.

    "Governor" Carney :lol:
    I really have no idea why people rate the bucket shop Clooney. He got filleted by Jacob Rees Mogg before a Commons Committee and was made to look like an emotional 13 year old. Appointed as a 'face' at the BOE and proved useless and regrettable. Elected as a 'face' in Canada and will prove just as useless and regrettable there.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,665

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    MEANWHILE

    BREAKING:

    Indian missiles start striking Pakistani territory in at least 3 locations.

    The Indian attack is now in full swing. Lots of fighter jets in the air.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1919848022596255826



    I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.

    TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
    Why ? Are they of Pakistani heritage ? The war is India v Pakistan not India v Islam.
    How did modern Pakistan and India come about?
    Mountbatten’s utter stupidity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,345
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    The reaction to a bog standard social security agreement, that’s good news for British expats, Indian expats, business and both economies is mind boggling.

    My firm has a few thousand people in the UK and a few thousand each in various other countries including India. At the moment of one of my team is sent to spend a couple of years in Germany, or Korea, or the Philippines or various other places they only pay NI once, here in Britain. But if they go to India they currently pay it here and in India. We send several dozen people on assignment to our Indian office every year, and they send a similar number here, and the double taxation is a very real cost. The same is true across hundreds of multinationals. Double taxation of posted workers is unfair, and economically stupid. It hits British workers going abroad just as much as vice versa.

    The Tories are utterly hypocritical and shameless on this. At least Reform don’t pretend to want to encourage Indian business or entrepreneurs. But in one breath Kemi and Co are moaning that repealing the non dom rules mean poor old rich Indians will leave the country because they have to pay more tax, in the next they are claiming that having people pay tax only once on the same income is two tier tax. And then in the third breath they’re on their second handbrake turn and objecting to inheritance tax on the principle that you shouldn’t be taxed twice on the same income.

    The numbers of Indians that come are uncapped. Two Tier Taxes, and uncapped. We CAN cap them, but who trusts a British government to cap them, after the Boriswave?

    Whatever tedious wank you churn out, this is a politically catastrophic move by Labour, and the Tories are right to pile on. And as for hyprocrisy, give me a break, your party - the Liberal DEMOCRATS - wanted to simply REVOKE the Brexit referendum
    Having revoke in a manifesto might be offensive or bad policy, though given it was in a manifesto up for a vote (and they lost) in a democratic election I don’t see why, but it’s not hypocrisy.

    As to the rest of the tedious wank, it’s just facts, that’s all.
    Your party did want to REVOKE, didn't it? lol

  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,665

    algarkirk said:

    What a class act Mark Carney was today. Quite moving.

    "Governor" Carney :lol:
    I really have no idea why people rate the bucket shop Clooney. He got filleted by Jacob Rees Mogg before a Commons Committee and was made to look like an emotional 13 year old. Appointed as a 'face' at the BOE and proved useless and regrettable. Elected as a 'face' in Canada and will prove just as useless and regrettable there.
    My enemy’s enemy.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,992
    It got lost amongst all the excitement last week, but following a by-election in the ward in which the new MP for Heywood and Middleton until recently sat as a councillor, Reform now has its second councillor in Greater Manchester. I mentioned last week how NE GM might prove fertile ground for them.
    https://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/25133303.reform-win-rochdale-seat-previously-held-mp-elsie-blundell/
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    MEANWHILE

    BREAKING:

    Indian missiles start striking Pakistani territory in at least 3 locations.

    The Indian attack is now in full swing. Lots of fighter jets in the air.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1919848022596255826



    I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.

    TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
    Why ? Are they of Pakistani heritage ? The war is India v Pakistan not India v Islam.
    How did modern Pakistan and India come about?
    Not really answered my question.

    Will all Muslims naturally support Pakistan, they don’t in the case of Palestine.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,144
    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    The reaction to a bog standard social security agreement, that’s good news for British expats, Indian expats, business and both economies is mind boggling.

    My firm has a few thousand people in the UK and a few thousand each in various other countries including India. At the moment of one of my team is sent to spend a couple of years in Germany, or Korea, or the Philippines or various other places they only pay NI once, here in Britain. But if they go to India they currently pay it here and in India. We send several dozen people on assignment to our Indian office every year, and they send a similar number here, and the double taxation is a very real cost. The same is true across hundreds of multinationals. Double taxation of posted workers is unfair, and economically stupid. It hits British workers going abroad just as much as vice versa.

    The Tories are utterly hypocritical and shameless on this. At least Reform don’t pretend to want to encourage Indian business or entrepreneurs. But in one breath Kemi and Co are moaning that repealing the non dom rules mean poor old rich Indians will leave the country because they have to pay more tax, in the next they are claiming that having people pay tax only once on the same income is two tier tax. And then in the third breath they’re on their second handbrake turn and objecting to inheritance tax on the principle that you shouldn’t be taxed twice on the same income.

    The Lib Dem’s will vote against it. Presumably they don’t want to encourage Indian businesses and Entrepreneurs too.

    https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-local-elections-labour-reform-starmer-farage-tories-lib-dems-greens-12593360
    The Lib Dems don’t like it because it’s a post-Brexit trade deal and they think we should focus on the EU. They are wrong on this one, it’s a decent deal - better than I expected.
    They’re just opposing for the sake of it.
    Yes, there’s probably a bit of that. But at least it’s not a deal they were negotiating on pretty much the same terms only a few months ago in government.

    The main principled objection to this would be about Modi and the rule of law, but that’s true of several states were negotiating FTAs with.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    The reaction to a bog standard social security agreement, that’s good news for British expats, Indian expats, business and both economies is mind boggling.

    My firm has a few thousand people in the UK and a few thousand each in various other countries including India. At the moment of one of my team is sent to spend a couple of years in Germany, or Korea, or the Philippines or various other places they only pay NI once, here in Britain. But if they go to India they currently pay it here and in India. We send several dozen people on assignment to our Indian office every year, and they send a similar number here, and the double taxation is a very real cost. The same is true across hundreds of multinationals. Double taxation of posted workers is unfair, and economically stupid. It hits British workers going abroad just as much as vice versa.

    The Tories are utterly hypocritical and shameless on this. At least Reform don’t pretend to want to encourage Indian business or entrepreneurs. But in one breath Kemi and Co are moaning that repealing the non dom rules mean poor old rich Indians will leave the country because they have to pay more tax, in the next they are claiming that having people pay tax only once on the same income is two tier tax. And then in the third breath they’re on their second handbrake turn and objecting to inheritance tax on the principle that you shouldn’t be taxed twice on the same income.

    The numbers of Indians that come are uncapped. Two Tier Taxes, and uncapped. We CAN cap them, but who trusts a British government to cap them, after the Boriswave?

    Whatever tedious wank you churn out, this is a politically catastrophic move by Labour, and the Tories are right to pile on. And as for hyprocrisy, give me a break, your party - the Liberal DEMOCRATS - wanted to simply REVOKE the Brexit referendum
    Having revoke in a manifesto might be offensive or bad policy, though given it was in a manifesto up for a vote (and they lost) in a democratic election I don’t see why, but it’s not hypocrisy.

    As to the rest of the tedious wank,
    The Lib Dem 2019 manifesto. Indeed it was.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,919

    algarkirk said:

    What a class act Mark Carney was today. Quite moving.

    "Governor" Carney :lol:
    I really have no idea why people rate the bucket shop Clooney. He got filleted by Jacob Rees Mogg before a Commons Committee and was made to look like an emotional 13 year old. Appointed as a 'face' at the BOE and proved useless and regrettable. Elected as a 'face' in Canada and will prove just as useless and regrettable there.
    My enemies enemy seems to be the guiding principle.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,144
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    MEANWHILE

    BREAKING:

    Indian missiles start striking Pakistani territory in at least 3 locations.

    The Indian attack is now in full swing. Lots of fighter jets in the air.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1919848022596255826



    I’ll be interested to see what this does for community relations in some of our more diverse cities.

    TWO FRONT WAR FOR ME - Both my neighbours are Muslim. Such is life!
    Why ? Are they of Pakistani heritage ? The war is India v Pakistan not India v Islam.
    How did modern Pakistan and India come about?
    Not really answered my question.

    Will all Muslims naturally support Pakistan, they don’t in the case of Palestine.
    Kashmir strikes me as more of a traditional irredentist conflict, like Donbass and Crimea, or Alsace-Lorraine, rather than a religious proxy war.
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